Haengma / The Fourth
Robert Jasiek
term haengma. It seems to be difficult for everybody to explain
the term and especially so if there are translation problems. So
to reduce additional interpretation problems I city him:
> As far as I know, Haengma is a word from China. haeng means move and ma means stone.
> So Haengma means stone's move. Someone likes light and fast move like Cho Hoon-hyun while other's move is slow and solid like Lee Chang-ho.
> When Lee play one jump to the center Cho goes two to the center. Generally, Cho's moves are known as fastest and the best.
> It's pretty diffirent from forecast(reading the future moves) the moves. When you decide to play a Haengma, you can't see all variations caused by that Haengma because it's too much.
> Haengma comes from feelings and experiences. but it's hard to say that Haengma is nothing to do with the 'reading moves' though.
> The most two basic abilities to play baduk well would be reading and Haengma I think. Even someone's reading is so good, he won't have a chance to fight to win if his Haengma is so bad.
[...]
> I seeked the meaning of haengma in a book named 'dictionary of baduk term'.
> Haeng means move and ma means a horse.
> This is what the dictionary said;
> Haengma - "using a horse,(you need to understand that using the horses is very important to win the battle in ancient China. lots of Korean words are originated from China) So
> haengma is 'to move a stone in certain way' from the [beginning] to endgame. A stone can be placed anywhere of the board but because of its efficiency which make a resalt of the game, it
> moved following basic form made by long-time experiences."
> I think it's good definition if my traslation is not too bad.
> I agree that haengma follows the basic form which made by experiences. But I don't think it is haengma when it places in the endgame though.
> Although it's from experiences it is still quite diffirent form intuition. haengma is maybe in between reading and intuition.
[...]
> How about simply 'movement' [...] We have a book written by Cho Hoonhyun called 'speedy haengma'. It doesn't always show the efficient shape. it will be good to be efficient
> shape but it doesn't have to be. Well.... I don't know.
> The dictionary also defines 'haengmabup'. bup means law or certain way to be followed.
> haengmabup - "The basic way of haengma, or principle of it. It is a way to play that fit in with shape and Maek(I can't explain this neither. It's kind of vital point [maybe: suji]) It is used through the
> whole game importantly."
> I hope this helps you to understand haengma.
[...]
> As the dictionary said haengma comes from experiences you may strengthen your haengma by practicing.
> Everyone follows Lee Changho and Cho Hoonhyun's moves because they win. It may doesn't seems logical but it's pretty logical.
> We also verify their moves by reviewing. Learn it from players of higher level. If you analyze it by your own it's pretty good also.
Here is my summarizing interpretation:
***
The haengma of a stone is the development of meanings for it
during the entire game.
***
So in particular as an example, relation to other stones can
be a meaning or part of a meaning. Thus there can be haengma
of several stones together.
--
robert jasiek
Denis Feldmann
"Robert Jasiek" <jas...@snafu.de> wrote in message news:
3B96104F...@snafu.de...
Why not use the terms derived from "the stones go walking" (i.e. walk, pace,
steps, etc.)? It seems to me that this is what, in French, we have always
called "la marche des pierres" ("stones' way of walking") with all the
implications of light vs heavy, correct rythm vs out of step, etc, etc.
>
Robert Jasiek
Denis Feldmann wrote:
> > The haengma of a stone is the development of meanings for it
> > during the entire game.
> Why not use the terms derived from "the stones go walking" (i.e. walk, pace,
> steps, etc.)? It seems to me that this is what, in French, we have always
> called "la marche des pierres" ("stones' way of walking") with all the
> implications of light vs heavy, correct rythm vs out of step, etc, etc.
Maybe you have not understood exactly my definition above yet.
For some time I have also thought that haengma would be
something similar to "the stones go walking" or "development of
efficient shape". However, haengma is much more general!
Furthermore, it is more fundamental because other strategic
concepts like "direction of play", "relation", "moyo",
"the stones go walking", "shape" can refer to haengma or be
imposed on haengma as second order concepts! Haengma is so
fundamental and at the same time new to us that I had
overlooked its real meaning almost entirely until this morning.
Presumably most of us have to think afresh about the game. At
least I must. So far I have thought about meanings of a stone
mainly before playing it and about relations of stones changing
mainly due to newly played stones. I have been by far too
inflexible in my thinking because I have neglected the great
potential that although a stone does not move its meanings can
move/change/develop freely. I have not completely overlooked
that fact, of course, but so far I have not viewed upon it as a
fundamentally important strategic concept, so important that
the professional compares it here with reading. It is no
surprise that Asian players can become strong professionals if
they are aware of fundamental concepts like haengma since they
start playing go while we would hardly dream of their
existence. They are taught about playing weak haengma while we
are taught only specializations like weak connections. So they
can develop a flexible approach much more easily. It is time
for us to become flexible as well!
Note that "the stones go walking", the development of local
connection shapes, and the relation of stones are some of the
most important concepts referred to haengma. So when you
look into a typical haengma book, then you might get the
impression that haengma is only about those few other
concepts. Contrarily, it is the book that restricts the
teaching topics to just a few basics.
Denis, what do you mean when say "rhythm" or "out of step"?
--
robert jasiek
Denis Feldmann
"Robert Jasiek" <jas...@snafu.de> a écrit dans le message news:
3B963B18...@snafu.de...
>
>
> Denis Feldmann wrote:
> > > The haengma of a stone is the development of meanings for it
> > > during the entire game.
> > Why not use the terms derived from "the stones go walking" (i.e. walk,
pace,
> > steps, etc.)? It seems to me that this is what, in French, we have
always
> > called "la marche des pierres" ("stones' way of walking") with all the
> > implications of light vs heavy, correct rythm vs out of step, etc, etc.
>
> Maybe you have not understood exactly my definition above yet.
> For some time I have also thought that haengma would be
> something similar to "the stones go walking" or "development of
> efficient shape". However, haengma is much more general!
> Furthermore, it is more fundamental because other strategic
> concepts like "direction of play", "relation", "moyo",
> "the stones go walking", "shape" can refer to haengma or be
> imposed on haengma as second order concepts! Haengma is so
> fundamental and at the same time new to us that I had
> overlooked its real meaning almost entirely until this morning.
> Presumably most of us have to think afresh about the game.
Alright, I understand now. Very bad news for us all, then: this concept is
fundamental in (one of) the best French go book : "Perfectionnement au Go:
le travail des pierres", by P. Aroutcheff ( ' Advanced Go playing: how
stones work'). From the Introduction (freely translated; sorry for my poor
English)
"There are two stages in the life of a stone: the moment when it is played,
where it make working (or not) the whole position; the ulterior plays, which
contibutes efficiently (or not) to its work" And, later: "the stones can do
everything , attack and defense, construction and destruction, etc... They
can be sacrificed , but only after their work is done. They are insensible
to capture, in fact, but protest noisily to any sabotage of their work...."
And, of course, the tools used for analysis of the efficiency of stones are
shape, tewari, natural flow, etc.
Mostly what Kageyama says :-) Things like doing things in the right order
(kikashis, inducing sequences, amashi in situations like "play yose before
living", etc.),or ,say, the flow of spreading groups at the end of the
onadare joseki, or the typical erosion (as yosumiru) followed by invasion...
"Out of step" is something harder to show, but against some stronger player,
you usually get punished immediately, and will still be paying at the end of
the game.
>
> --
> robert jasiek
>
Robert Jasiek
Denis Feldmann wrote:
> Alright, I understand now.
OC, I might be overinterpreting again;)
> Very bad news for us all,
Bad news?
> then: this concept is
> fundamental in (one of) the best French go book : "Perfectionnement au Go:
> le travail des pierres", by P. Aroutcheff ( ' Advanced Go playing: how
> stones work').
This seems to be a really good book...
--
robert jasiek
John Fairbairn
> during the entire game.
> ***
>
> So in particular as an example, relation to other stones can
> be a meaning or part of a meaning. Thus there can be haengma
> of several stones together.
>
bit askew on this, and also in danger of over-egging the pudding by trying
to attach too much meaning to the word.
I offer the following comments, slightly at random, which should be read in
conjunction with Kim's original remarks cited by Robert.
"The haengma of a stone" is nonsensical. A ma is a stone. It is either the
player, the position or the way of playing that uses (not has) haengma.
I start from the belief that Japanese suji and Korean haengma, for all
practical purposes, are the same thing. Haengma is therefore not a new
concept. What is different about the Korean version is the way they attempt
to codify and teach it. The Japanese approach differs because they have the
word tesuji (lacking in Korean) and their codification and method of
teaching have focused on tesuji, which is just one aspect of suji/haengma.
The Koreans try more to teach the whole concept.
I think there are three aspects to S/H, as above. In the Oriental languages
they are mostly distinguished by being used in standard phrases (e.g. suji
ga ii is almost always used of a player and effectively means he has good
style).
One thing that underlies all aspects is that there is a dynamic feel. This
cannot be stressed enough, because westerners ignore it even when they think
they have understood the basic concept. The commonest manifestation of this
is believing that tesuji means good move (or brilliant move), whereas it
means something more dynamic - a key that unlocks a position.
When used of a player S/H means near enough style, provided that is
understood to mean the flow of the way one plays rather than a predilection
for a certain kind of move. To answer a cap with a knight's move is to show
good suji (it may not be correct, of course, but see Kim's remarks). That is
a very simplistic example. A good player knows what to do in a myriad
positions. It is useful to think of moves not as the static plonking down of
a stone but as moves the way a boxer uses the word.
When used of a large position or other broad sense, I'd suggest an effective
translation for S/H is to say the dynamics of a position.
When used of a micro or local position the meaning is, in Japanese, tesuji.
This is where Korean differs because they do not have a precise word for
tesuji. You can view tesuji as meaning micro-suji if you like, but Korean
does not have a way of modifying the word haengma in the same way. Instead,
Koreans have the concept of maek. I am not entirely sure whether Koreans
really consider maek as part of haengma. Suji and tesuji are clearly in a
parent-child kind of relationship, but I suspect haengma and maek are seen
as cousins - kissing cousins, maybe.
Maek means, literally, pulse (Japanese myaku). I suggest a good translation
is pulse point. Vital point is obviously similar but has largely been
preempted for the Japanese kyuusho which means urgent point. A pulse point
is like a pressure point on the body, or a support point, and has no
connotation of timing. Maek does not have the dynamic feel of tesuji, though
of course there is some overlap.
Turning now to why Orientals seem to find it hard to explain it all to us:
well, I am not sure that that is the correct view. I think that to a large
degree the problem is that Orientals find it hard to understand why we are
asking. I don't want to go all academic and serious here, but there is a
fundamental difference in our respective expectations about the learning
process. At the risk of oversimplification, I'd say that in the west we tend
to want to learn by understanding something and then (if we decide it is
worthwhile) we may go away and practise it. In the Orient there is a
tendency to do it another away: start with a blank slate, practise something
assiduously enough, and then you will understand it. We are familiar with
this process, of course. It's how we learn our multiplication tables or a
musical instrument, but we tend to drop this approach and may have to
re-learn it if we take up an Oriental martial art - or go :)
I think Kim's remarks bear this out. He would expect us to learn
haengma/suji by constant mimicking of the pros' way of doing things. It is
instructive to note that the Japanese word for learn (manabu) is related to
the word for imitate (as in mane-go), and indeed in old Japanese texts it
often has to be translated as imitate. Then, of course, we'd understand and
wouldn't need to ask for an explantion!
This process seems to be similar to the Damascene conversion that Robert has
mentioned he experienced. He said (I think) that he had been concentrating
solely on the "before" aspects of a stone and had only just realised there
was an "after" aspect. If he had learnt S/H the Oriental way, probably he
would have made the same journey with a less bumpy ride. Learning has its
own suji, too, perhaps :)
Robert Jasiek
BHaber wrote:
> What part of the original text
Do you mean Mr. Kim's text?
> seems to indicate that the definition involves
> changes of meanings of stones over time, rather than the meaning at the moment
> of playing it? I don't see it.
> >The haengma of a stone is the development of meanings for it
> >during the entire game.
I have derived the change over time instead of only the meaning
at the moment of playing from the following:
>>
Haeng means move [...]
So haengma is 'to move a stone in certain way' from the [beginning] to
endgame. A stone can be
placed anywhere of the board but because of its efficiency which make a
resalt of the game, it
moved following basic form made by long-time experiences." [...]
How about simply 'movement'
<<
It is not the stone that moves physically but it is its
environment that moves (changes). Since haengma has a
quality (it can be good or bad, right or wrong) while a
moving environment as such has no quality yet, I have
inserted the missing quality in my definition by adding
the word "meanings" and by saying that they move (develop).
This word may be my overinterpretation, as John seems to
believe. Maybe we could substitute it by "correct features"
if we approach the word suji, which I think means something
like "good, correct play". In the context of aspiring
perfect play during a game my "meanings" aspect of haengma
would then automatically tend towards the "good, correct"
end of possible meanings. So it would remain to clarify
how flexible our thinking is allowed to be if we stick to the
original meaning of haengma. If it is less flexible than I
have guessed and if it is more like John supposes, then a
new term deserves to be invented for flexibly changing
meanings of stones over time.
For me the literal meaning of the term haengma seems to be
almost trivial if John is right with letting it be equal to
suji. However, in the process of trying to understand the
term I have always been hoping to learn about a new
strategic concept for powerful future study. Indeed I have
found two such concepts: "development of meanings over time"
and "interaction of different strategic concepts". I have
also become aware of the importance of "development of
shape efficiency". All these are very useful study objects
for the following years. What more could one hope for from
a study of a literal meaning of just one term? I have
rarely experienced more efficient study even tough I still
do not know the true and exact meaning of haengma...
--
robert jasiek
John Fairbairn
>
> For me the literal meaning of the term haengma seems to be
> almost trivial if John is right with letting it be equal to
> suji. However, in the process of trying to understand the
> term I have always been hoping to learn about a new
> strategic concept for powerful future study. Indeed I have
> found two such concepts: "development of meanings over time"
> and "interaction of different strategic concepts". I have
> also become aware of the importance of "development of
> shape efficiency". All these are very useful study objects
> for the following years. What more could one hope for from
> a study of a literal meaning of just one term? I have
> rarely experienced more efficient study even tough I still
> do not know the true and exact meaning of haengma...
>
Robert, just to be clear: what you are discovering for yourself (and
sharing) is valuable and impressive. Part of my point, though, is that you
are adding these meanings to haengma. They are your enhancements and not
part of the general definition, in my view.
And I am disappointed to see a comment like:"the word suji, which I think
means something
like "good, correct play"" when I had tried hard to explain that it has
three distinct usages (I think usages is better than meanings because of the
way it is incorporated in phrases which define the precise meaning on each
occasion). It certainly does not mean good or correct play - otherwise how
could there be zokusuji? Can I refer to back to my first posting? Even
though I have obviously failed to get my points over, a re-reading may
overcome my deficiencies. But to help you, it may be worth reminding you of
the base meanings of suji. It refers to flowing lines such as veins on the
hand or in jade, or sinews, and from this come derived meanings such as
texture, or the plot or thread of a story. There is nothing inherently good
or bad in it, and if you want to say good suji you normally have to specify
it, e.g. suji ga ii. Zokusuji and sujichigai are bad versions.
I repeat, my suggested *translated* meanings which come from the one meaning
but three usages of the Japanese are:
1. Dynamic(s), when referring to a global or generalised concept
2. Style, when referring to a player
3. Tesuji for a localised case
For haengma I believe 1 and 2 can be applied as appropriate, but care is
needed for 3 because of the lack of true overlap between tesuji and maek.
2 and 3 are the main meanings in practice. Style is a neat enough
translation for practical purposes, but has its dangers. As I said before,
if used it has to be understood that if you say someone has good style/suji
you mean that he has the knack of getting the vital points of attack and
defence.
The meaning of tesuji from a Japanese dictionary: "The most effective way to
play". Nothing like good move or brilliant move, in my view. Way to play
(uchikata) = suji. Boring though it mjay sound, the right translation for
tesuji is usually just the above or variations such as "the right line of
play" (line=suji).
Bob Myers
--
Bob Myers
Eremin
"Robert Jasiek" <jas...@snafu.de> wrote in message
news:3B96104F...@snafu.de...
Barry Phease
<john...@harrowgo.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>"Robert Jasiek" <jas...@snafu.de> wrote in message
>news:3B96104F...@snafu.de...
>> The haengma of a stone is the development of meanings for it
>> during the entire game.
>> ***
>>
>> So in particular as an example, relation to other stones can
>> be a meaning or part of a meaning. Thus there can be haengma
>> of several stones together.
I thought that "disposition of stones" was a fair definition of
"haengma".
>I start from the belief that Japanese suji and Korean haengma, for all
>practical purposes, are the same thing. Haengma is therefore not a new
>concept. What is different about the Korean version is the way they attempt
>to codify and teach it. The Japanese approach differs because they have the
>word tesuji (lacking in Korean) and their codification and method of
>teaching have focused on tesuji, which is just one aspect of suji/haengma.
>The Koreans try more to teach the whole concept.
I haven't much idea of how it is taught in Korean, but I have often
wondered at the use of the word "suji" in Japanese. Chinese has
re-borrowed the word "tesuji" back into Chinese "shoujin" but I have
never heard of any counterpart to "suji". The character used for
"tesuji" means the sinews of the hand. Presumably "suji" just means
"sinew".
Now I can understand the feeling of a sinew tying together the
different parts of a body, translating to shape on a go board.
However the Korean idea of relating it to disposition of horse
soldiers in ancient warfare, seems to make more sense. What would be
the Chinese equivalent of "haengma"?
Barry Phease
Robert Jasiek
John Fairbairn wrote:
> And I am disappointed to see a comment like:"the word suji, which I think
> means something
> like "good, correct play"" when I had tried hard to explain that it has
> three distinct usages
Maybe I should have trusted your linguistic knowledge more than
The Go Player's Almanac, edition 1 entry, which says that suji
is "Tesuji, correct shape, correct style, the correct move,
good shape, the right line of play." John, I know about your
remarkable knowledge of Asian languages and so I might better
have resisted the temptation to refer to the Almanac as an
additional source. My mistake:)
John, why do you think that Korean haengma is ususally used
for Japanese suji or has this only been an assumption?
> I repeat, my suggested *translated* meanings which come from the one meaning
> but three usages of the Japanese are:
> 1. Dynamic(s), when referring to a global or generalised concept
> 2. Style, when referring to a player
> 3. Tesuji for a localised case
This makes Japanese usage of suji in general pretty clear,
although it is still not so easy to know exactly about
specialized go knowledge. What does the book Suji and
Anti-suji explain about the word?
--
robert jasiek
The Nose Who Knows
> What does the book Suji and Anti-suji explain about the word?
I don't have it to hand, but the book "Tesuji and Anti-Suji of Go" has a
lengthy Translator's Note at the beginning.
It explains that the Japanese word "suji" has a very broad use outside
of Go: the veins in a leaf, the lines on the palm, a possible future,
and so on; it is a natural part of the vocabulary that is immediately
understood by native Japanese speakers, but has no direct counterpart in
English. (A frustratingly familiar problem for Westerners who
appreciate Far Eastern cultural imports and attempt to explain them to
friends.)
The decision was made not to name the book something like
"Brilliant-Tactics and Plays-against-the-flow-of-the-game of Go", but
that leaves the onus of a lengthy explanation on the translator who
leaves "Tesuji" and "suji" intact.
The way it is explained in the book, I got the impression that a
succinct translation of "suji" for Go usage is "line of play", and
"tesuji" is "brilliant line of play".
--
\ "We must respect the other fellow's religion, but only in the |
`\ sense and to the extent that we respect his theory that his |
_o__) wife is beautiful and his children smart." -- Henry L. Mencken |
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John Fairbairn
"Bob Myers" <r...@gol.REMOVE.com> wrote in message
news:mNyl7.1012$rT2.1...@news.pacbell.net...
> What are the Sino-Korean characters used to write "haeng-ma"?
In Japanaese, iku (go) and uma (horse).
Ma is standard Korean for a piece in any game.
John Fairbairn
>
> Maybe I should have trusted your linguistic knowledge more than
> The Go Player's Almanac, edition 1 entry, which says that suji
> is "Tesuji, correct shape, correct style, the correct move,
> good shape, the right line of play." John, I know about your
The Almanac is not so much wrong as defective in that it needs to explain
usages. Edition 2 seems to have the same definition. If I remember, I'll try
to post some real-life examples as I come across them.
> John, why do you think that Korean haengma is ususally used
> for Japanese suji or has this only been an assumption?
It is solely my own assumption that they are equivalent, though I have
tested it out on a couple of strong Koreans who also know Japanese. I say
"equivalent" rather than "used for" as Koreans seem very touchy about their
independence, especially now they are No. 1.
> specialized go knowledge. What does the book Suji and
> Anti-suji explain about the word?
>
Is this the Bob Terry book? If so, I seem to recall he added a lot in [ ]
that wasn't in the original Japanese. Anti-suji struck me as a clever way of
renderimg zokusuji, but I think overall the book perhaps created more
confusion than it set out to solve.
Bob Myers
>
> "Bob Myers" <r...@gol.REMOVE.com> wrote:
> > What are the Sino-Korean characters used to write "haeng-ma"?
>
>
> Ma is standard Korean for a piece in any game.
Thanks, John. Yes, that's what I had guessed. We can now engage in the
highly questionable endeavor of making unsubstantiated guesses about the
"meaning" of compounds based on their components.
This character "iku/kou/gyou/haeng" has an incredibly wide variety of
nuances. Jack Halpern's Kanji Learners' Dictionary gives the three basic
"meanings" as "GO", "ACT", and "LINE". It occurs to me that in the
"haengma" context we are probably dealing with the ACT "meaning", which
might be better represented here as BEHAVE; so possibly we can gloss
"haengma" as "behavior (and here I will add: present and future) (haeng)" of
the "stone (ma)".
You may be right that the way it is used in Korean is close to the way
"suji" is used in Japanese, but it seems like the derivation, background,
and context are substantially different. Question for native or fluent
Korean speakers: Korean often maps quite closely to Japanese. I assume
there is a close Korean equivalent to "suji". If so, is it used in a go
context?
--
Bob Myers
Benny S. Chi
of the stone placement. So, any kind of movement or stone addtion is
simply called Haeng-Ma. Adjectives that maybe used to describe one's
Haeng-Ma could be "Good H-M" or "Bad H-M" or "Fast H-M" or "Slow H-M".
For example, beginners often extend a stone to form an empty triangle
and one may refer to this action as a "Bad H-M" <- I'm using H-M in
place of Haeng-Ma. Another example is that when your opponent
attaches to your stone you should Hane or Wrap around your opponent.
This practice can be called "H-M technique". And when you have been
cross-cut you extend. This practice may also called "H-M technique".
I hope one can start to see that H-M merely refers to any related
stone addtion. For example, one space jump is H-M technique.
Following a joseki sequence maybe called "proper H-M"
regards,
Benny
Matti Siivola
Matti Siivola
Charles Matthews
Matti Siivola wrote
> How does one pronounce Haeng-Ma?
The 'ae' sound is quite difficult to get right, for native English speakers.
I'd describe it as a short 'eh'. For example pae (ko) isn't correct as
English 'pay' - the 'ay' is too long - more like 'peh', but also like a
shorter 'ay' diphthong. Somewhere in between those two sounds.
So 'hehngma' is close enough.
Charles