Legolas the prince?
Steve
merely introduced as Legolas the Elf such as in the meeting with Eomer
(excuse the lack of accent - my computer doesn't like them). It is
said during the council of Elrond that he is the son of Thranduil -
king of the elves of northern Mirkwood. Surely then he would be the/a
prince of Mirkwood? If they were trying to intimidate Eomer then
saying "...and this is Legolas, heir to the throne of northern
Mirkwood..." would be more effective, no?
Perhaps it is because Elves live forever unless killed and elven-kings
rule forever unless killed (which they have a habit of doing) that the
term 'prince' has no meaning. Or maybe Tolkien just didn't want Gimli
to feel left out - two grand titles and then "Gimli the Dwarf". ;)
Anyway is there a proper reason for this 'demotion' of our fave
fellowship-elf that anyone knows of?
Simon J. Rowe
news:4a89a836.02081...@posting.google.com...
> Anyway is there a proper reason for this 'demotion' of our fave
> fellowship-elf that anyone knows of?
He is a prince but we're talking about a Silvan elf king living in caves in
the middle of a forest, hardly comparable to the elf kings of old like
Fingolfin of Gil-galad. The men of Rohan and even Gondor had little to do
with elves, they were somewhat estranged from them, trying to pull rank
would have been counter productive,
Simon
Pradera
>> Anyway is there a proper reason for this 'demotion' of our fave
>> fellowship-elf that anyone knows of?
>
>He is a prince but we're talking about a Silvan elf king living in caves
>in the middle of a forest, hardly comparable to the elf kings of old
>like Fingolfin of Gil-galad. The men of Rohan and even Gondor had little
>to do with elves, they were somewhat estranged from them, trying to pull
>rank would have been counter productive,
>
Besides, they assumed anybody who was on the team was of royalty - like
prince Pippin :) (or was it Merry? damn, I forgot)
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>he is the son of Thranduil -
>king of the elves of northern Mirkwood. Surely then he would be the/a
>prince of Mirkwood?
>fellowship-elf that anyone knows of?
As you have noted, latter-day Elf realms tended not to use the term
"prince".
Come to think of it, I'm not sure the Sindar ever did. Luthien
wasn't called Princess; Dior was "Thingol's Heir" but not Prince,
etc. Perhaps only the Noldor referred to their kings' sons as
princes. Thranduil was a Sinda, ruling Silvan elves.
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morgan mair fheal
> prince Pippin :) (or was it Merry? damn, I forgot)
they were
Stan Brown
rec.arts.books.tolkien:
>> Besides, they assumed anybody who was on the team was of royalty - like
>> prince Pippin :) (or was it Merry? damn, I forgot)
>
>they were
If you mean Merry and Pippin were royalty, where do you get that.
Merry and Pippin were both of what would be called the landed
gentry, perhaps even the nobility if you stretch the definition very
far.
And if you mean something else, please be more clear.
Steve
> > Besides, they assumed anybody who was on the team was of royalty - like
> > prince Pippin :) (or was it Merry? damn, I forgot)
>
> they were
Erm...NO
I know that Pippin was know as 'The Prince of Halflings' but he was
not. He was higher class - being the son of the Thain but he wasn't
royalty - i'm sure of it. Merry wasn't even known as that...he didn't
go to Minas Tirith where Pippin aquired the nickname until later.
kuei...@-remove-hotmail.com
I always wondered if Tolkien had in mind "Pepin the Short"?
<g>
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AC
Oh, those damnable Franks.
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morgan mair fheal
qx1...@bigfoot.com (Stan Brown) wrote:
> morgan mair fheal <mair_...@yahoo.com> wrote in
> rec.arts.books.tolkien:
> >> Besides, they assumed anybody who was on the team was of royalty - like
> >> prince Pippin :) (or was it Merry? damn, I forgot)
> >
> >they were
>
> If you mean Merry and Pippin were royalty, where do you get that.
> Merry and Pippin were both of what would be called the landed
> gentry, perhaps even the nobility if you stretch the definition very
> far.
pippin inherited the thain (thane)
and merry the master another inherited position of power
> And if you mean something else, please be more clear.
where i come from inherited positions of political power
no matter how diluted
are called royalty
Stan Brown
rec.arts.books.tolkien:
>where i come from inherited positions of political power
>no matter how diluted are called royalty
I don't know where that is (evidently capital letters are a precious
resource in your land), but if you actually mean what you say then I
don't think it's Planet Earth. There is no real-life country where
anyone with any political power is automatically "royalty".
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"Really, Dr. Fara, such folly smacks of genius. A lesser mind
would be incapable of it." --Isaac Asimov, /Foundation/
Douglas
> You may have noticed that all through the LotR trilogy, Legolas is
> merely introduced as Legolas the Elf such as in the meeting with Eomer
> (excuse the lack of accent - my computer doesn't like them). It is
> said during the council of Elrond that he is the son of Thranduil -
> king of the elves of northern Mirkwood. Surely then he would be the/a
> prince of Mirkwood? If they were trying to intimidate Eomer then
> saying "...and this is Legolas, heir to the throne of northern
> Mirkwood..." would be more effective, no?
> Perhaps it is because Elves live forever unless killed and elven-kings
> rule forever unless killed (which they have a habit of doing) that the
> term 'prince' has no meaning.
That is one explanation which occurs to me.
Here's another thought. I don't have the books to hand, but are there
any examples of strictly hereditary kingship among the Valar or the
Sindar?
I suppose you have two scenarios - the changes in leadership during
the migrations east to Valinor and back again during the War of the
Silmarils. The sons of Feanor divide territory and folk between them.
In general I get the impression of the elven folk fragmenting and
choosing factional leaders as required.
But right now I can't think of examples of inheritance in a settled
Elven kingdom.
Is it not more likely to be a Germanic model of selection of a ruler
from among the main candidates? Especially among more 'primitive'
elves like the Wood Elves of Mirkwood.
Just wondering
Douglas
Pradera
>But right now I can't think of examples of inheritance in a settled
>Elven kingdom.
>
Oropher and his son Thranduil. Duh.
AC
> morgan mair fheal <mair_...@yahoo.com> wrote in
> rec.arts.books.tolkien:
>
>>where i come from inherited positions of political power
>>no matter how diluted are called royalty
>
> I don't know where that is (evidently capital letters are a precious
> resource in your land), but if you actually mean what you say then I
> don't think it's Planet Earth. There is no real-life country where
> anyone with any political power is automatically "royalty".
I think the idea is "inherited" political power. I prefer the word
nobility, since royalty is usually reserved for a monarchy of some kind.
However, both Merry and Pippin were heirs to the two most important families
in the Shire.
--
AC
Trevor Barrie
morgan mair fheal <mair_...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>where i come from inherited positions of political power
>no matter how diluted
>are called royalty
May I ask from where you come? I've never heard of the term "royalty"
being used so broadly.
the softrat
wrote:
'e's an Oirishmun so's he don't know no better.
the softrat "He who rubs owls"
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sufficient.
Steuard Jensen
<MPG.17bf6a785...@news.odyssey.net>:
> As you have noted, latter-day Elf realms tended not to use the term
> "prince".
> Come to think of it, I'm not sure the Sindar ever did.
I'm away from my books right now, but it occurs to me that there's an
appendix to the "History of Galadriel and Celeborn" chapter in
_Unfinished Tales_ entitled "On the Sindarin Princes of the Silvan
Elves". I don't know off the top of my head if the phrasing of the
section title corresponds to that of the essay itself, but it could be
a useful place to check for such usage. :) (I could, of course, be
completely misremembering that section title.)
Steuard Jensen
TradeSurplus
>Here's another thought. I don't have the books to hand, but are there
>any examples of strictly hereditary kingship among the Valar or the
>Sindar?
Dior Eluchil.
Trade.
Jim Gregors
I brought up this same subject nearly six years ago. Here is the
original post:
One thing I always found strange was how little honor Legolas received
for his ancestry. He is referred to as a 'messenger of Thranduil' or
'son of Thranduil', when he should have been addressed as Prince of
Mirkwood. If he _had_ been a little more liberal in throwing around his
title in public (like Aragorn), I imagine it would have went something
like this:
SCENE: Legolas, Aragorn and Gimli, meet Eomer
'One only of us is an Elf, Legolas from the Woodland Realm in distant
Mirkwood,' said Aragorn.
Legolas threw back his hood. His elven ears caught and reflected the
sunlight, blinding everyone in a fifty foot radius. 'Only an Elf, my
arse!' he cried. 'I am Legolas son of Thranduil, and am called
Greenleaf, the Sun-fetcher, Wood-Elf, the heir of Oropher, Thingol's kin
of Doriath. Here is the Bow that feathered the Nazgul's mount and is
strung again! Will you acknowledge my title or piss me off further?
Choose swiftly!'
Gimli stared at his companion in amazement, for he had not seen Legolas
in this mood before. He seemed to have grown in stature while Aragorn
had shrunk and in his undying face he caught a brief vision of the power
and majesty of the kings of wood. For a moment it seemed to the eyes of
Gimli that a white flame shot from the nostrils of Legolas and singed
the hairs upon Aragorn's brow.
Aragorn stepped back and a look of awe was in his face. He cast down
his proud eyes. 'I thought that was my line,' he mumbled.
'Great is the wrath of the Wood-Elves!' cried Eomer, nearly tripping
over Gimli in his haste to back away from the grumpy Elf.
'Oh, Aule!' Gimli muttered to himself. 'I wonder if its too late to
join Sauron?'
Legolas ignored them all and proceeded to test first one ear, then the
other, with a tuning-fork.
Jim G.
Douglas
> Nasta? dzie? 12 sie 2002, gdy Douglas by? ?askaw napisa?:
>
> >But right now I can't think of examples of inheritance in a settled
> >Elven kingdom.
> >
>
> Oropher and his son Thranduil. Duh.
Thanks for the info.
The 'Duh', however, was surplus to requirements. Or are you normally
gratuitously rude to people asking a civil question?
Pradera
>> >But right now I can't think of examples of inheritance in a settled
>> >Elven kingdom.
>> >
>>
>> Oropher and his son Thranduil. Duh.
>
>Thanks for the info.
>
>The 'Duh', however, was surplus to requirements. Or are you normally
>gratuitously rude to people asking a civil question?
>
Yep. That's me.
Steve
> Steve wrote:
> >
> > You may have noticed that all through the LotR trilogy, Legolas is
> > merely introduced as Legolas the Elf such as in the meeting with Eomer
> > (excuse the lack of accent - my computer doesn't like them). It is
> > said during the council of Elrond that he is the son of Thranduil -
> > king of the elves of northern Mirkwood. Surely then he would be the/a
> > prince of Mirkwood? If they were trying to intimidate Eomer then
> > saying "...and this is Legolas, heir to the throne of northern
> > Mirkwood..." would be more effective, no?
> > Perhaps it is because Elves live forever unless killed and elven-kings
> > rule forever unless killed (which they have a habit of doing) that the
> > term 'prince' has no meaning. Or maybe Tolkien just didn't want Gimli
> > to feel left out - two grand titles and then "Gimli the Dwarf". ;)
> > Anyway is there a proper reason for this 'demotion' of our fave
> > fellowship-elf that anyone knows of?
>
> I brought up this same subject nearly six years ago. Here is the
Lol, Very nice. If only Tolkien had thought of it, maybe Legolas could
have overthrown Elassar and ruled middle-earth...
Well, he can dream...
Paul S. Person
That would be "prince" in the sense of "princeps", that is, "first"
(most particularly, per White, "first on the list" [either for good,
such as a promotion list in the Army, or for ill, as in a list of
members of a criminal enterprise] but eventually extended to mean
"pre-eminent" in, for example, the arts) rather than in the sense
"heir to the throne".
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