Small katakana 'ke'
Brandon Berg
pronounced か, but when and why is it used? Is there any semantic value
attached to it, or is its function purely phonetic?
Thanks for your time.
Brandon Berg
David Nettles
the 3 cases I encountered at served to make something behave more like a
counter of the thing than the thing itself. Similar to the difference
between 「1時」and 「1時間」.
-ヶ月【いかげつ】suffix -months
一ヶ所【いっかしょ】 one place; the same place
http://www.miteyo.org/web/dict.asp?mode=ja&search=%83%96%8C%8E&romajimode=0
http://www.miteyo.org/web/dict.asp?mode=ja&search=%83%96%8F%8A&romajimode=0
But the 3rd case was confusing. It is certainly in this word as 「が」,
which is a reasonable, but I cannot imagine the meaning implied here.
霞ヶ関 【かすみがせき】Japanese Foreign Ministry (euph)
http://www.miteyo.org/web/dict.asp?mode=ja&search=%89%E0%83%96%8A%D6&romajim
ode=0
Anybody else wants to give this a shot?
--
David Nettles
email: tetsuo...@hotmail.com
web: http://www.miteyo.org
"Brandon Berg" <brb...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:oVuw7.14519$2p1.1...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
Jim Breen
>>I checked my dictionary and found 「ヶ」 to be the sound 「か」. In 2 of
>>the 3 cases I encountered at served to make something behave more like a
>>counter of the thing than the thing itself. Similar to the difference
>>between 「1時」and 「1時間」.
"my dictionary"? Sorry David, that's *my* dictionary! I just let you
use it. 8-)}
>>-ヶ月【いかげつ】suffix -months
>>一ヶ所【いっかしょ】 one place; the same place
>>http://www.miteyo.org/web/dict.asp?mode=ja&search=%83%96%8C%8E&romajimode=0
>>http://www.miteyo.org/web/dict.asp?mode=ja&search=%83%96%8F%8A&romajimode=0
Please note that the use of ヶ is an archaism.
いっかしょ is more likely to be 一か所 or even 一箇所.
>>But the 3rd case was confusing. It is certainly in this word as 「が」,
>>which is a reasonable, but I cannot imagine the meaning implied here.
>>霞ヶ関 【かすみがせき】Japanese Foreign Ministry (euph)
>>http://www.miteyo.org/web/dict.asp?mode=ja&search=%89%E0%83%96%8A%D6&romajim
>>ode=0
"euph" => euphemism. Kazumigaseki is a place name. A bit like saying
"Whitehall" when referring to the British Foreign Office. You'll
find ヶ in heaps of place names. They are in my *other* dictionary.
>>Anybody else wants to give this a shot?
Sure. Who would you like me to shoot?
--
Jim Breen [j.b...@csse.monash.edu.au http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/~jwb/]
Computer Science & Software Engineering, Tel: +61 3 9905 3298
P.O Box 26, Monash University, Fax: +61 3 9905 5146
Clayton VIC 3800, Australia ジム・ブリーン@モナシュ大学
David Nettles
It would have been more accurate to say "found on my site *using* the Breen
Dictionary(tm)". :)
--
David Nettles
email: tetsuo...@hotmail.com
web: http://www.miteyo.org
"Jim Breen" <j...@nexus.csse.monash.edu.au> wrote in message
news:9q2osc$380$1...@towncrier.cc.monash.edu.au...
Bart Mathias
JB> .... Kazumigaseki is a place name. ...
So is Kasumigaseki, for that matter. :-)
Bart
Jim Breen
>>"JB" == "Jim Breen" writes:
>>JB> .... Kazumigaseki is a place name. ...
>>So is Kasumigaseki, for that matter. :-)
Yez. Zat iz zo.
Mike NZAA
"Brandon Berg" <brb...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:oVuw7.14519$2p1.1...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
> pronounced か, but when and why is it used? Is there any semantic value
> attached to it, or is its function purely phonetic?
Although it *looks like* a small ケ, it's actually a shorthand version of 箇
(Or so I was informed by my university professor many moons ago...)
Mike
NZAA
Lei Tanabe
"David Nettles" <tetsuo...@hotmail.com> wrote
> Ooopss! しつれいします。 I stand corrected. :)
> It would have been more accurate to say "found on my site *using* the
> Breen Dictionary(tm)". :)
You have already done しつれい, so your apology should be しつれいしました。
:)
Lei
Lei Tanabe
"Mike NZAA" <mundersc...@hotmail.com> wrote
>
> Although it *looks like* a small ケ, it's actually a shorthand version of
箇
> (Or so I was informed by my university professor many moons ago...)
Yes, "箇" has other forms, "個", "介" and 个 and "ke" is derived from 个.
Lei
David Nettles
--
David Nettles
email: tetsuo...@hotmail.com
web: http://www.miteyo.org
"Lei Tanabe" <l...@clear.net.nz> wrote in message
news:3bc695bd$2...@clear.net.nz...
Mike Wright
This thread is beginning to look familiar. In my glorious ignorance,
I'm pretty sure that 介 is just a mistake, because the sousho form can
(but doesn't always) look so much like the sousho for 个.
I've already made one error this century. I hope this isn't another one.
--
Mike Wright
http://www.CoastalFog.net
_______________________________________
"I think Descartes got it wrong.
It's not 'I think, therefore I am.'
It's 'I am, therefore I don't know.'"
--Ken Fair
David Nettles
Please check out the new mobile edition of the dictionary on my mobile
website.
You can point your mobile device, Palm, i-mode, WinCE or another other to:
http://www.miteyo.org/mobile/dict.asp
--
David Nettles
email: tetsuo...@hotmail.com
web: http://www.miteyo.org
"David Nettles" <tetsuo...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:Gshx7.199370$w7.32...@news02.optonline.net...
Lei Tanabe
"Mike Wright" <dar...@CoastalFog.net> wrote
> Lei Tanabe wrote:
> >
> > Yes, "箇" has other forms, 個, 介 and 个 and "ke" is derived from 个.
> This thread is beginning to look familiar. In my glorious ignorance,
> I'm pretty sure that 介 is just a mistake, because the sousho form can
> (but doesn't always) look so much like the sousho for 个.
I was also a bit puzzled about the kanji and referred to my kanwa-jiten,
which listed 介 as one of the variations and this kanji itself had a meaning
of 'counting' and a reading "ke".
So, I included it, assuming the dictionary is right.
> I've already made one error this century. I hope this isn't another one.
Unlike you, I'm piling up a huge heap.
Sigh..
Lei
Mike Wright
>
> "Mike Wright" <dar...@CoastalFog.net> wrote
> > Lei Tanabe wrote:
> > >
> > > Yes, "箇" has other forms, 個, 介 and 个 and "ke" is derived from 个.
>
> > This thread is beginning to look familiar. In my glorious ignorance,
> > I'm pretty sure that 介 is just a mistake, because the sousho form can
> > (but doesn't always) look so much like the sousho for 个.
>
> I was also a bit puzzled about the kanji and referred to my kanwa-jiten,
> which listed 介 as one of the variations and this kanji itself had a meaning
> of 'counting' and a reading "ke".
> So, I included it, assuming the dictionary is right.
Under 介, my Daijiten says: 会意。人と八の合字。 and
个は別。个は箇に同じ竹の半画。However, it also says: 片仮名ケは介の省画。一説个の一体。
个 certainly makes sense as the source of ケ when pronounced as "ka".
I'm less certain that 介 makes more sense when it's pronounced as "ke".
At any rate, I take the Daijiten explanation as saying that some
people think ケ comes from 个 and others that it comes from 介, but
not that 介 is a variant form of 个. (Note that the 八 above means "to
divide", not "eight".)
Bart or anyone else have any ideas about how likely a "ke"
pronunciation for 介 would be? I'm not getting anywhere looking at
Chinese readings. Sino-Korean is less than helpful.
Ken Masuyama
> Lei Tanabe wrote:
> >
> > "Mike Wright" <dar...@CoastalFog.net> wrote
> > > Lei Tanabe wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Yes, "箇" has other forms, 個, 介 and 个 and "ke" is derived from 个.
> >
> > > This thread is beginning to look familiar. In my glorious ignorance,
> > > I'm pretty sure that 介 is just a mistake, because the sousho form can
> > > (but doesn't always) look so much like the sousho for 个.
> >
> > I was also a bit puzzled about the kanji and referred to my kanwa-jiten,
> > which listed 介 as one of the variations and this kanji itself had a meaning
> > of 'counting' and a reading "ke".
> > So, I included it, assuming the dictionary is right.
> [...]
>
> Under 介, my Daijiten says: 会意。人と八の合字。 and
> 个は別。个は箇に同じ竹の半画。However, it also says: 片仮名ケは介の省画。一説个の一体。
>
> 个 certainly makes sense as the source of ケ when pronounced as "ka".
> I'm less certain that 介 makes more sense when it's pronounced as "ke".
>
> At any rate, I take the Daijiten explanation as saying that some
> people think ケ comes from 个 and others that it comes from 介, but
> not that 介 is a variant form of 个. (Note that the 八 above means "to
> divide", not "eight".)
>
> Bart or anyone else have any ideas about how likely a "ke"
> pronunciation for 介 would be? I'm not getting anywhere looking at
> Chinese readings. Sino-Korean is less than helpful.
介 appears four times in Man'yooshuu (all in volume 18). This is a
very problematic man'yoogana, because it's used as both ケ甲 and ケ乙.
4048: 介敷乃日波 多努之久安曽敝 (今日の日は 楽しく遊べ)
4049: 安利蘇野米具利 見礼度安可須介利 (荒礒の廻り 見れど飽かずけり)
are ケ甲, but
4106: 波奈礼居弖 奈介可須移母我 (離れ居て 嘆かす妹が)
4116: 奈介伎都都 安我末川君我 (嘆きつつ 我が待つ君が)
are ゲ乙.
Chinese pronunciation should have been approximately 'kai' (like
on-yomi) and theoretically ケ乙 is expected.
Anyway it is natural that 介 is used as a kana for 'ke'. Kanakana
'ke' in old times (until 12c) looks pretty much like 个 but that must
come from 介 (final stroke omitted) like katakana ク comes from 久.
--
massangeana (Ken Masuyama)
Lei Tanabe
"Mike Wright" <dar...@CoastalFog.net> wrote
> Lei Tanabe wrote:
> >
> > I was also a bit puzzled about the kanji and referred to my kanwa-jiten,
> > which listed 介 as one of the variations and this kanji itself had a
meaning
> > of 'counting' and a reading "ke".
> > So, I included it, assuming the dictionary is right.
>
> 个は別。个は箇に同じ竹の半画。However, it also says: 片仮名ケは介の省画。
一説个の一体。
>
> 个 certainly makes sense as the source of ケ when pronounced as "ka".
> I'm less certain that 介 makes more sense when it's pronounced as "ke".
>
> At any rate, I take the Daijiten explanation as saying that some
> people think ケ comes from 个 and others that it comes from 介, but
> not that 介 is a variant form of 个. (Note that the 八 above means "to
> divide", not "eight".)
>
> Bart or anyone else have any ideas about how likely a "ke"
> pronunciation for 介 would be? I'm not getting anywhere looking at
> Chinese readings. Sino-Korean is less than helpful.
My kanwa-jiten lists "ke" reading for 介 but no example jukugo.
I just assume it would have "ke" pronunciation as I've seen the
manyougana-type expression, e.g. 介津留 for 削る and katakana ケ derived
from 介.
I have no ides about 个 which I didn't know till I checked up 箇 in the
dictionary.
Lei
ueshiba
news:uelo7l...@asahi-net.or.jp...
>
> 介 appears four times in Man'yooshuu (all in volume 18). This is a
> very problematic man'yoogana, because it's used as both ケ甲 and ケ乙.
> 4048: 介敷乃日波 多努之久安曽敝 (今日の日は 楽しく遊べ)
> 4049: 安利蘇野米具利 見礼度安可須介利 (荒礒の廻り 見れど飽かずけり)
> are ケ甲, but
> 4106: 波奈礼居弖 奈介可須移母我 (離れ居て 嘆かす妹が)
> 4116: 奈介伎都都 安我末川君我 (嘆きつつ 我が待つ君が)
> are ゲ乙.
大野晋さんが、平安時代のある時期（ア行のエとヤ行の江との
区別が失われた後か？）に大幅な補修を受けたとされている
部分（巻18の第一群と第四群とされる部分）ですね。
上 柴 公 二
"Ken Masuyama" <ez3k...@asahi-net.or.jp> wrote in message
news:uelo7l...@asahi-net.or.jp...
Bart Mathias
u> "Ken Masuyama" <ez3k...@asahi-net.or.jp> wrote ...
u>KM> 介 appears four times in Man'yooshuu (all in volume 18).
u>KM> This is a very problematic man'yoogana, because it's used as
u>KM> both ケ甲 and ケ乙.
u> ...
u> 大野晋さんが、平安時代のある時期（ア行のエとヤ行の江との
u> 区別が失われた後か？）に大幅な補修を受けたとされている
u> 部分（巻賊限の第一群と第四群とされる部分）ですね。
I trust Ono's hypothesis here is not simply to account for the
discrepancy in the use of 介
u> "Ken Masuyama" <ez3k...@asahi-net.or.jp> wrote ...
u>KM> Chinese pronunciation should have been approximately 'kai'
u>KM> (like on-yomi) and theoretically ケ乙 is expected.
Generally that's what one would expect from a go'on '...e' :: kan'on
'...ai' character, but there's probably more to this. It's
apparently the otsu readings that are off here; Jidaibetsu doesn't
even note that ケ乙 is possible, but does list it as koorui "ke"
for the Hitachi fudoki and Norito, in addition to Man'yooshuu.
There are cases of go'on '...e' :: kan'on '...a' characters that are
koorui 'ke' or 'ge' (e.g. 家, 下). Moreover, since 介 is the
phonetic of 界, which is "kyey" in Sino-Korean, it would likely be
homophonous, and its initial-to-vowel transition would have been
quite appropriate for koorui "ke." There is no hint of palatalization
in either 家 and 下), for their part, but Mandarin shows the
expected effects of it, so there must have been enough to qualify
them for koorui "e"s.
By the way, Mike, I think you made a point in this thread that the
top of 介 is not "eight" but "divide." Did you mean "not 'eight'
but 'person'"? I believe 'eight' and 'divide' are the same, because
of eight's repeated divisibility.
Bart
Mike Wright
[...]
> By the way, Mike, I think you made a point in this thread that the
> top of 介 is not "eight" but "divide." Did you mean "not 'eight'
> but 'person'"? I believe 'eight' and 'divide' are the same, because
> of eight's repeated divisibility.
Haven't run across that idea before, though it makes sense for 'eight'
to be derived from 'divide' in this way.
But it's the bottom element, not the top, that I meant to point out.
Guess I just don't know which way is up. I probably had 分 in the back
of my mind (scary place for an innocent little kanji).
I was simply making the point of the function of that element in that
character, for those who might not be aware of it, since the Daijiten
quote said simply 人と八の合字, which could leave one wondering what
"eight people" had to do with anything. Of course, flipping it
vertically definitely confused the issue.
Lei Tanabe
"Mike Wright" <dar...@CoastalFog.net> wrote
> Bart Mathias wrote:
> [...]
> > By the way, Mike, I think you made a point in this thread that the
> > top of 介 is not "eight" but "divide." Did you mean "not 'eight'
> > but 'person'"? I believe 'eight' and 'divide' are the same, because
> > of eight's repeated divisibility.
>
> Haven't run across that idea before, though it makes sense for 'eight'
> to be derived from 'divide' in this way.
>
> But it's the bottom element, not the top, that I meant to point out.
> Guess I just don't know which way is up. I probably had 分 in the back
> of my mind (scary place for an innocent little kanji).
>
> I was simply making the point of the function of that element in that
> character, for those who might not be aware of it, since the Daijiten
> quote said simply 人と八の合字, which could leave one wondering what
> "eight people" had to do with anything. Of course, flipping it
> vertically definitely confused the issue.
I understand 介 is a combination of "入 in (not 'person')" and "八 divide",
meaning "caught in/mediate".
Interestingly the top of 分 is 八 and its opposite 合's is 入 .
Lei
Mike Wright
Don't know about that one. The part of the Daijiten explanation that I
omitted says: 八は分つ意。即ち人が分ち限る意。(This is my first run-in
with the "wakatsu" reading for 分.)
> Interestingly the top of 分 is 八 and its opposite 合's is 入 .
IIRC, the top of 合 (without the 口) was simply an equilateral
triangle, and was the original form of the character. Its listing
under the 口 radical, rather than either 人 or 入 seems to confirm that.
Lei Tanabe
"Mike Wright" <dar...@CoastalFog.net> wrote
> Lei Tanabe wrote:
> >
divide",
> > meaning "caught in/mediate".
>
> Don't know about that one. The part of the Daijiten explanation that I
> omitted says: 八は分つ意。即ち人が分ち限る意。(This is my first run-in
> with the "wakatsu" reading for 分.)
My interpretation was my arbitary guess, as usual.
I now consulted my small kanwa, but it didn't explain each elements'
meanings.
> > Interestingly the top of 分 is 八 and its opposite 合's is 入 .
>
> IIRC, the top of 合 (without the 口) was simply an equilateral
> triangle, and was the original form of the character. Its listing
> under the 口 radical, rather than either 人 or 入 seems to confirm that.
You mean "sankaku + shikaku"?
I like it!
Lei
Bart Mathias
MW> Bart Mathias wrote:
MW> [...]
MW> B> By the way, Mike, I think you made a point in this thread that
MW> B> the top of *$B2p*(B is not "eight" but "divide." ...
MW> ...
MW> But it's the bottom element, not the top, that I meant to point
MW> out.
I'm not sure you actually said "top." I may have simply jumped to
conclusions, not knowing that Daijiten said there was a guy and a "/
\" in there. So please accept my apology for a probably false
accusation.
Bart
Bart Mathias
LT> "Mike Wright" <dar...@CoastalFog.net> described an early form of
LT> the character "GOO/a(u)/"match.
"
LT> You mean "sankaku + shikaku"?
LT> I like it!
There are quite a few characters that have those same three strokes
on top, which originated in a triangle, and they pictured a lid, or
cover. I've never gotten around to indexing kanji elements, but two
others I can think of now are KON,KIN/ima/"now" and
KON,KIN/kane/"gold, metal."
Bart
Mike Wright
I didn't say "top". (But I did say "above".)
ueshiba
news:i0.g0.8G2G9C...@hawaii.edu...
> "u" == "ueshiba" writes:
>
> u> 大野晋さんが、平安時代のある時期（ア行のエとヤ行の江との
> u> 区別が失われた後か？）に大幅な補修を受けたとされている
> u> 部分（巻賊限の第一群と第四群とされる部分）ですね。
>
> I trust Ono's hypothesis here is not simply to account for the
> discrepancy in the use of 介
>
私が Ken Masuyama さんの投稿にあき足らず敢えて補足した
のもそのためだったわけですから。
大野さんの何よりの功績は、
割と古くから気づかれていた、左注と実際の歌数との相違や、
本来有るべき年期の脱落（これらは確か契沖も代匠記で
指摘していたはず）
例えば澤瀉久孝先生が家持の誤読として指摘された異様な
用語、例えば「許牟可比太知而」や「麻気能麻久麻久」など
更には
他の個所では使われていない、万葉仮名としては異例の漢字
の使用、あるいは、万葉仮名の甲乙、清濁の不正（ Ken
Masuyama さんが指摘されたのはこれらの点でしょう）、あるいは
一ヶ所ながらヤ行の江であるべき仮名がア行のエで書かれて
いること
といった諸点を総合されて、平安時代に補修（とそれによる写し
誤り）があったことを推定された点ではないでしょうか。
上 柴 公 二