The end?
Disaster
conversation that we feel should be posted here.
Over the last few weeks Michael and I have gone over several issues, some
old, some actually new. As you may have noted, we generally went over things
around 8 times without resolution. So, in about 30 minute's we talked about
everything and fixed it all up! I believe we discussed every issue in
reverse order compared to the order is was handled here. Have a read and let
me know.
--
Kind regards
Disaster
Disaster's Fan Fiction - http://www.disfanfic.net
JAE FAQ - http://www.evafaq.com
Pen^3's JAE FAQ - http://faq.pen3.cjb.net
--------------------------------------
ICQ History Log For:
####### MDWigs
Started on Sat Jun 01 10:12:09 2002
--------------------------------------
Disaster 6/1/2002 7:20 AM You got a copy of your own notes on the
literal transaltions that you can email
me?
MDWigs 6/1/2002 9:03 AM They are not for public consuption. There are
pages and pages of stuff when I have
written
theories and 3 or 4 alternate translations
next to passages and all sorts of notes
about
different scenes. All the translation
stuff is
solid, but a lot of the other stuff is
just my
theories ^^ I don't feel confortable
distributing it, even to you ^^
MDWigs 6/1/2002 9:03 AM public consumption that is ^^
Disaster 6/1/2002 9:25 AM I want them anyways
Disaster 6/1/2002 9:29 AM Dad just had a major mishap with his network
connection.
Kept telling him that a cable was
disconnected
even though it was fine.
MDWigs 6/1/2002 9:30 AM compile your own!
MDWigs 6/1/2002 9:30 AM there is 3 to 4 years work in this stuff
Disaster 6/1/2002 9:30 AM Opened it up moved the network card around and
everything was fine. So either it was just
over heated somehow or the PCI slot is
busted
MDWigs 6/1/2002 9:30 AM and tell your dad to giggle the cable ^^
Disaster 6/1/2002 9:31 AM Well duh, that's why I want your stuff
Michael, I don't have 3 to 4 years to
compile
my own stuff and get back to you. I'd
rather
bitch about your stuff anyhow
Disaster 6/1/2002 9:31 AM Giggle the cable?
Er, jiggle.
Disaster 6/1/2002 9:31 AM Jiggling didn't work
MDWigs 6/1/2002 9:31 AM yes jiggle
MDWigs 6/1/2002 9:32 AM jiggle harder then ^^
Disaster 6/1/2002 9:32 AM lol
It's fixed Michael!
Disaster 6/1/2002 9:34 AM I fixed it! I made it RIGHT, through my
translation of the situation I was able to
CORRECT the problem and SOLVE the ISSUE!
MDWigs 6/1/2002 9:35 AM you just dropped off the map for a second
there
Disaster 6/1/2002 9:35 AM Yeah! everything got blocked for a couple
moments.
Disaster 6/1/2002 9:36 AM So why didn't you take to my effort to solve
the "definre "Rei"" debate?
MDWigs 6/1/2002 9:37 AM you effort?
MDWigs 6/1/2002 9:37 AM your
Disaster 6/1/2002 9:37 AM Yeah! The three definitions that includes the
way you view Rei plus a break down that
results in my view.
MDWigs 6/1/2002 9:38 AM You were just arguing semantics, all the
defintions were essentailly the same
MDWigs 6/1/2002 9:38 AM in the context we are talking about there is
_no_ difference between a "name" a "title"
or
a "label" they are all "references" to an
enetity
Disaster 6/1/2002 9:38 AM As if!
First, I gave definitions from a source my
god
I used quotes I feel filthy.
Disaster 6/1/2002 9:39 AM There is more then one entity here!
MDWigs 6/1/2002 9:39 AM wait which post is this? let me get it on the
screen
Disaster 6/1/2002 9:39 AM The use of names, label's titles reference etc
are good tools to define what we all see
in
Rei
MDWigs 6/1/2002 9:39 AM they can be references to mulitple entities
too
it doesn't matter in this case
Disaster 6/1/2002 9:40 AM Well I didn't quote the dictionary but I gave
direct links to what is has to say. Which
in
this case is a step up from quoting as you
see
the source not what I tell you is the
source
MDWigs 6/1/2002 9:40 AM my point is that the "word" Rei, whatever
adjective you want to use to descrive that
word - name, title, lable - whatever, in
the
Eva universe "Rei" identifies multiple
beings
MDWigs 6/1/2002 9:40 AM ah those posts
Disaster 6/1/2002 9:40 AM You can find the definitions at
www.dictionary.com
MDWigs 6/1/2002 9:41 AM if you looked at them closely you would see
that in the conext we are talking they all
generally mean the same thing
Disaster 6/1/2002 9:41 AM We can use the different terms to help
identify what entity of Rei we are
refering to
though.
Disaster 6/1/2002 9:42 AM I looked at the definitions actually and
really did read them and discovered enough
of
a difference to diasagree with that
statement.
I think the use of each term can be used
to
our advantage rather then just bundling
all
Rei's up into one package
MDWigs 6/1/2002 9:42 AM why bother? we seen to get by easier enough by
either saying "Rei clones" or "Rei with
Lilith's soul", that's all the
differentiation
you really need and it saves anyone not
familar with whatever "terms" that are
used
from being confused
MDWigs 6/1/2002 9:42 AM how is a "name" any different to a "label"
then in the context we are discussing?
Disaster 6/1/2002 9:43 AM Well, you know the answer to that. Of course
we are not going to say "Rei the name" or
"Rei
the label." We argue for two reasons.
1) We either like to or we are passing
time
2) Might actually stumble upon a solution.
(not terribly likey)
MDWigs 6/1/2002 9:44 AM well its 2.45 am here at the moment, and im
bored, so I am content to keep discussing
this, but I don't think there is a
"solution"
becuase whatever convetion you and I come
up
with will be completely arbitary, it wont
mean
anything to anyone else.
Disaster 6/1/2002 9:45 AM First of all, get rid of the word context, it
does not apply in this regard. The Context
has
to be the same in each consideration. That
is
the Eva universe as viewed from the real
world. Once this has been established then
we
can see that a name is given to a person
and a
label to soemthing not a person. This is
not
the end all be all example of a name vs a
label mind you and yes many people can
look at
a name as the label of a person, but you
have
to consider it in the context that we
really
have here.
MDWigs 6/1/2002 9:45 AM in the series itself there is no
differentiation made between the clones
and
the one that currently has Lilith's soul
when
it comes to "naming", they are all just
called
"Rei".
Disaster 6/1/2002 9:45 AM Well I think we do have a solution, we just
won't stop to consider each other enough.
MDWigs 6/1/2002 9:45 AM WOAH!
MDWigs 6/1/2002 9:45 AM stop right there
MDWigs 6/1/2002 9:46 AM "Once this has been established then we can
see that a name is given to a person and a
label to soemthing not a person"
MDWigs 6/1/2002 9:46 AM that doesn't hold true in either the real
world _or_ the Eva Universe
Disaster 6/1/2002 9:46 AM Sure, if you know about the clones and there
purpose then you call them Rei Rei clones
or
whatever.
If you don't know about the clones then
Rei is
just that quite person over there in the
corner.
MDWigs 6/1/2002 9:46 AM As I ponted out, my university has a name, my
cat has a name, my computer has a name,
all
these things are not "people"
Disaster 6/1/2002 9:47 AM that's why I didn't stop there Michael!
Finish what I read before you blow up
about
one detail that I mention. I qualfied that
statement
MDWigs 6/1/2002 9:47 AM but we are discussing Eva, it is assumed that
knowledge about the Rei clones is shared
between all parties
MDWigs 6/1/2002 9:48 AM ok please describe the "context" that allows
that statement to be true
Disaster 6/1/2002 9:48 AM but knowledge is not shared that's the whole
point! We as the viewer only find out
later on
in the story why the Japanese actors kept
calling them children right?
MDWigs 6/1/2002 9:48 AM I would love to hear it
MDWigs 6/1/2002 9:48 AM keep that thought on hold, we are getting
ahead of ourselves, go back to that other
issue
Disaster 6/1/2002 9:49 AM Well true is not the right word. Try "the
context in which you would use that
interpretation"
It's like a hard boiled definition used
for
that example. Kinda like using Children to
get
the clue. "For my next example lets assume
that name is to a person and label is to a
non-person" you see?
Disaster 6/1/2002 9:49 AM Okay what issue we on now?
God this is so much fast then USENET. Less
irritating to
MDWigs 6/1/2002 9:50 AM but I don't want to assume that, becuase I
wouldn't assume that normally, its an
artificial condition im not happy with
Disaster 6/1/2002 9:50 AM Rei with Soul is a reference to a name
Rei clones are labeled (Rei 01 Rei 02 etc)
MDWigs 6/1/2002 9:50 AM yes it is ^^
MDWigs 6/1/2002 9:51 AM but again that's just an arbitary defintion
you have placed on those entities, a
defintion
that I don't think is intuitive and which
would be confusing to anyone who hasn't
read
the whole discussion
Disaster 6/1/2002 9:51 AM "Rei Ayanami" to people who have finished the
series is Lilith, is a bunch of clones, is
a
girl who went to Shinji's school. Is a
pilot
of Eva.
MDWigs 6/1/2002 9:52 AM "Rei Ayanami" is a entity that is different
from person to person. If anything Eva
should
have taught you that. She is just how we
perceive her to be, her existance is
defined
by our perception of her being
MDWigs 6/1/2002 9:52 AM My perception of Rei is going to be different
to yours
MDWigs 6/1/2002 9:52 AM its unique to me
Disaster 6/1/2002 9:52 AM Okay Michael for get about the name va label
issue. It's not important. It was used as
a
tempory example and no way would I
continue to
use it as we discussed even if you did
agree
for the very reasons that you just gave.
No
one else would ever know what the hell we
were
talking about
We will of course continue to define what
we
are refering to, (I talk abou tRei clones,
I
talk about Rei the pilot) as we always
have.
Although the default definition of Rei
will of
course always remain the one we saw most
of.
that is Rei 02.
MDWigs 6/1/2002 9:53 AM thus we have to confine our discussion to
within the Eva Unverse and look
objectively at
how she is portrayed in that
Disaster 6/1/2002 9:53 AM OMG you just almost QUOTED ME!
A while ago I said, "children" could
refernece
the Rei in you rmind and rei in shinji's
min
dand so forth
MDWigs 6/1/2002 9:54 AM you did?
Disaster 6/1/2002 9:54 AM well to most people in NGE she is a girl who
goes to Shinji's school.
MDWigs 6/1/2002 9:54 AM that she is
Disaster 6/1/2002 9:54 AM Yes, a while ago, abou thalf way through the
"children vs child" debate and starts the
Rei
debate
Disaster 6/1/2002 9:54 AM It was an idea on why Gainax used "children,"
a deliberate error.
MDWigs 6/1/2002 9:55 AM we _know_ why they used Children and it was
not an error in the context of Eva
Disaster 6/1/2002 9:55 AM An alternative to the "it was used because of
the clones" idea.
It also leads to the idea that all of the
other pilots and for that matter everyone
in
the series could also be refered to in the
plural. but that would have been overkill
and
Rei is a good representative as the mother
of
humanity
MDWigs 6/1/2002 9:55 AM they used it becuase they wanted the viewer to
association the term CHILDREN in Eva with
the
English word Children
MDWigs 6/1/2002 9:56 AM but Rei herself isn't just referred to as
plural, _all_ the "Children" are
MDWigs 6/1/2002 9:56 AM and like you said, you wouldn't call _everone_
by plural terms
MDWigs 6/1/2002 9:57 AM fixing "Children" makes a lot more sense when
you actually know Rei's origins
Disaster 6/1/2002 9:57 AM Well yes, in the world of NGE frankly the
characters who knew English should have
wondered about it. Although the truth is
so
unbelievable they could probably blame red
tape and just call it a unquie title. I'm
talking about Gainax in the real world
using a
msitake they way they wanted to. They
didn't
MAKE the mistake, they USED it.
Disaster 6/1/2002 9:57 AM oh so they ARE all refered to in the plural?
(you see, I do find out info from you :P)
MDWigs 6/1/2002 9:57 AM they _did_ wonder though
MDWigs 6/1/2002 9:58 AM as I posted, there is the passage from Kaji
which states "please ponder the term
"children"
Disaster 6/1/2002 9:58 AM They did wonder? Who wondered? When did they
wonder?
I would expect Kaji to wonder. But no one
else. Well Misato maybe from about episode
20
on but not earlier.
Disaster 6/1/2002 9:59 AM Oh that was a Kaji quote? thought that was
someone from Gainax! LOL
MDWigs 6/1/2002 9:59 AM They _are_ all referred to in the plural? Yes
of course! Its "First Children", "Second
Children", "Third Children" etc, etc, they
don't just use "Children" for Rei
Disaster 6/1/2002 9:59 AM Yes but you see it's Kaji's job to wonder. He
is suppose to hunt the truth. did he know
about the DP system when he said that?
MDWigs 6/1/2002 10:00 AM well it came indirectly from Gainax, but it
was in the book "2015 - The last year of
Rouji
Kaji" from some of _Kaji's_ assorted notes
Disaster 6/1/2002 10:00 AM Okay because I thought I was told several
times in the JAE that it was only Rei.
Okay then, plural is better for the
reasoning
we just agreed on.
MDWigs 6/1/2002 10:00 AM i never said it was only Rei
MDWigs 6/1/2002 10:01 AM They _never_ say the English word "Child" at
all in the original
Disaster 6/1/2002 10:01 AM Okay, but Kaji still doesn't count! I was
refering to more to NERV staff and other
average people. As Kaji is a damn spy he
does
not count as normal in this context
MDWigs 6/1/2002 10:01 AM of course Kaji counts!
Disaster 6/1/2002 10:02 AM I'm not accusing you of saying it was only
Rei. I think it was that german kid.
MDWigs 6/1/2002 10:02 AM and who is to say that others _didn't_ wonder
about it, we just never saw it
MDWigs 6/1/2002 10:02 AM Rudolf ? ^^
Disaster 6/1/2002 10:02 AM No he doesn't! Kaji has a heighten sense of
"hunt truth" as it were in the series.
Disaster 6/1/2002 10:02 AM Yeah Rudolf
MDWigs 6/1/2002 10:03 AM there really would be something to wonder
about if only Rei was call "Children" and
the
others were called "Child" but to the
average
Japanese speaker (who isn't an Otaku and
who
wouldn't look into it) "Children" is just
some
forign sounding word that you are jsut
told is
the "title" for these pilots
Disaster 6/1/2002 10:03 AM Others may or may not have wondered but as I
said, they believe believeable stuff just
like
we would if we were there right? It's the
mob
not wanting to look into something that
looks
innocent.
Easy to write "children" off as a stupid
thingy that happened in the beaurocrocy
MDWigs 6/1/2002 10:04 AM All the pilots have the same "title", so for
the average Japanese speaker (both in the
series and outside of it) to them its just
like any other title. After all NERV is
called
NERV, SEELE, SEELE, GEHIRN, GEHIRN, these
words are essentially just "titles"
Disaster 6/1/2002 10:04 AM Okay, now you have to ask yourself, who in ADV
with one or two viewings of NGE is going
to be
able to achieve this level of insight into
the
series? Even with a consultant?
MDWigs 6/1/2002 10:05 AM sure, and for 23 out of 26 of the episodes the
"title" "Children" is a mystery, its just
a
strange title, you accept it, once you see
episode 23, then realisation dawns about
you
about its "other" meaning
MDWigs 6/1/2002 10:05 AM Oh I don't _blame_ them as such
Disaster 6/1/2002 10:06 AM Well yeah, the people in the series would
think the same thing. MUCH easier to think
that it's just a title then try and guess
about the DP or instrumentality.
MDWigs 6/1/2002 10:06 AM I think it is practically impossible to do the
job properaly, I've spent more that 3
years
tracking this stuff and I wouldn't even
come
close.
Disaster 6/1/2002 10:07 AM .........fucking hell Michael.
We just backtracked our entire JAE
debating
and solved everything at least to my
satisfaction.
MDWigs 6/1/2002 10:07 AM my point all along though is that with
something like _Children_ if you watched
the
whole thing you really should have thought
about why it was used, I mean if you are
translating this thing, and the _whole_
way
through they use this "Children" term,
even
though its written in the script as
something
different, your really should stop and
think
about the reason behind it
MDWigs 6/1/2002 10:07 AM did we?
haha well that was well done ^^
MDWigs 6/1/2002 10:08 AM ok well have you got a log of this? Post it on
JAE and say, problem solved ^^
Disaster 6/1/2002 10:08 AM Well, I'm sure there were many reasons for
many mistakes and then some without
reason.
I don't wanna bring Matt up but I would
have
liked to present something real from him.
Disaster 6/1/2002 10:09 AM lol
Will do!
There's always the history files
Disaster 6/1/2002 10:09 AM Will be a shame to get back to boring stuff!
MDWigs 6/1/2002 10:09 AM look im sure he is a nice bloke, but there
_were_ errors with the ADV production, if
not
the translation, then with the liner notes
(dinosaur thing, etc) that sort of stuff
really shouldn't have happened.
MDWigs 6/1/2002 10:10 AM but they were probably rushed for time, and
under a tight budget and all that jazz
Disaster 6/1/2002 10:10 AM Hey I'm not arguing here! He's a great guy, I
know he's human. But I would also like to
hear
you say, "so is the consultant"
MDWigs 6/1/2002 10:11 AM it doesn't excuse it, it makes it
understandable perhaps, but in the end you
still have a product with a number of
errors,
regardless of how they got there. And yes
"so
is the consultant" too, which is probably
why
he is no longer at Gainax
Disaster 6/1/2002 10:11 AM Yeah, I'm sure that's status quo though.
Watchman
Disaster wrote:
>
<MaSSivE SniP>
Your grasp of technical knowledge is awesome!
--
'Anyone who isn't confused doesn't really know what's going on'
Disaster
> Disaster wrote:
> >
> <MaSSivE SniP>
>
> Your grasp of technical knowledge is awesome!
What's technical about sending a cancel?