No wonder Rei Ayanami is so weird....
Shez
US Study Says All Clones Genetically Abnormal
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Cloned mice have hundreds of abnormal genes,
which explains why so many cloned animals die at or before birth and
proves it would be irresponsible to clone a human being, scientists
said.
The process of cloning introduces the genetic mutations, and there
seems no immediate way around the problem, Rudolf Jaenisch and
colleagues at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology reported.
...
-Shez.
--
______________________________________________________
For those who like this sort of thing, this is the
sort of thing they like. -- Abraham Lincoln
______________________________________________________
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Use 'Reply-to' address for email replies, or my website mailform.
Lord Craxton
"Shez" <see...@nospam.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:jzOvQkLz...@xerez.nospam.co.uk...
> No wonder Rei Ayanami is so weird....
>
> US Study Says All Clones Genetically Abnormal
>
> WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Cloned mice have hundreds of abnormal genes,
> which explains why so many cloned animals die at or before birth and
> proves it would be irresponsible to clone a human being, scientists
> said.
>
> The process of cloning introduces the genetic mutations, and there
> seems no immediate way around the problem, Rudolf Jaenisch and
> colleagues at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology reported.
> ...
Do they go into any details? How can you bring "bad genes" into the mix if
you're just making a carbon copy of a healthy creature's genes?
______________________________________________________
>
> For those who like this sort of thing, this is the
> sort of thing they like. -- Abraham Lincoln
> ______________________________________________________
Funny, I thought Dan Quayle had a monopoly on those kind of quotes. ^_^
-Lord Craxton
Poster Formerly Known as Anonymous
Lord Craxton wrote:
>
> Do they go into any details? How can you bring "bad genes" into the mix if
> you're just making a carbon copy of a healthy creature's genes?
>
I can provide a little more detail into this. A few months ago I logged
a story about Dolly, the first cloned sheep. Turns out Dolly developed
arthritis in her front legs, which is strange for two reasons. One,
sheep rarely develop arthritis. Two, Dolly's donor never developed arthritis.
It may have something to do with the differences between a naturally
fertilized egg and one fertilized artificially via DNA transfer.
Natural fertilization still isn't fully understood, and has many
chemical and physical protections for the newly duplicating DNA.
Artificial fertilization may not supply those same protections.
Arthur Levesque
>>seems no immediate way around the problem, Rudolf Jaenisch and
>>colleagues at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology reported.
Craxton>Do they go into any details? How can you bring "bad genes" into
Craxton>the mix if you're just making a carbon copy of a healthy
Craxton>creature's genes?
Because it's not a perfect copy. We need a way to disable DNA's
macrovision copy-protection.
--
/\ Arthur Levesque <fnord?> http://boog.org & http://DammitJa.net __
\B\ack King of the Potato People & shanana-Cobain <*> Urban Spaceman (oO)
\S\lash Sweet transvestite and member of a vast right-wing conspiracy /||\
\/ I was a lesbian before it was fashionable! My work here is done...
And don't get me started on region codes!
Frank White
>
>
>"Shez" <see...@nospam.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
>news:jzOvQkLz...@xerez.nospam.co.uk...
>> No wonder Rei Ayanami is so weird....
>>
>> US Study Says All Clones Genetically Abnormal
>>
>> WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Cloned mice have hundreds of abnormal genes,
>> which explains why so many cloned animals die at or before birth and
>> proves it would be irresponsible to clone a human being, scientists
>> said.
>>
>> The process of cloning introduces the genetic mutations, and there
>> seems no immediate way around the problem, Rudolf Jaenisch and
>> colleagues at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology reported.
>> ...
>
>Do they go into any details? How can you bring "bad genes" into the mix if
>you're just making a carbon copy of a healthy creature's genes?
The problem is, you're not making a carbon copy. You're
taking already developed genetic material and using that
as the basis for a living creature. Flaws in the source
material due to age, mutation, or damage during extraction,
combined with the stress of geneticly engineering the
clone cell and problems that might arise during development,
can give you bad genes and badly defective clones.
That does not seem to be the problem in NGE, from the
looks of it they've got their cloning techniques down pat.
Rei's problem is that she's got a mismatch between her
body and soul, and she can't resolve the internal conflict.
FW
David Oldridge
news:alrms3$pmq$1...@bob.news.rcn.net...
> Do they go into any details? How can you bring "bad genes" into the mix if
> you're just making a carbon copy of a healthy creature's genes?
It's still less than a perfect process. It's not creating bad genes,
but screwing up good ones.
> ______________________________________________________
> >
> > For those who like this sort of thing, this is the
> > sort of thing they like. -- Abraham Lincoln
> > ______________________________________________________
>
> Funny, I thought Dan Quayle had a monopoly on those kind of quotes. ^_^
"A proof is a proof. What kind of proof is a proof. And when you have a
proof it is a good proof that's proven."
-- Jean Chretien, current Prime Minister of Canada, who regularily botches
both official languages
Matt Durrant
> >>
> >> US Study Says All Clones Genetically Abnormal
> >>
> >> WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Cloned mice have hundreds of abnormal genes,
> >> which explains why so many cloned animals die at or before birth and
> >> proves it would be irresponsible to clone a human being, scientists
> >> said.
> >>
> >> The process of cloning introduces the genetic mutations, and there
> >> seems no immediate way around the problem, Rudolf Jaenisch and
> >> colleagues at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology reported.
> >> ...
That's hardly news. Didn't they have to clone Dolly the sheep hundreds of
times before they got one that worked, so to speak?
Shez
>>
>> US Study Says All Clones Genetically Abnormal
>
>Do they go into any details? How can you bring "bad genes" into the mix if
>you're just making a carbon copy of a healthy creature's genes?
Well I may as well just quote the whole article....
-Shez.
-------------------
By Maggie Fox
Health and Science Correspondent
9-12-2
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Cloned mice have hundreds of abnormal genes,
which explains why so many cloned animals die at or before birth and
proves it would be irresponsible to clone a human being, scientists
said.
The process of cloning introduces the genetic mutations, and there
seems no immediate way around the problem, Rudolf Jaenisch and
colleagues at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology reported.
"I think this confirms suspicions that I have always had and that
many others had that cloning is a very inefficient method at this
point," Jaenisch said in a telephone interview.
"It is very irresponsible to think this method could be used for the
reproductive cloning of humans."
Even before Dolly the sheep became the first mammal to be cloned
from an adult cell, in 1997, researchers have known that cloning is
difficult.
The most common cloning method is called nuclear transfer and
involves taking the nucleus out of an egg cell, replacing it with
the nucleus from a cell of the animal to be cloned, and
then "reprogramming" the creation so the egg begins dividing as if
it had been fertilized by a sperm.
Only one of every several hundred eggs ever start dividing and of
these, only a small percentage result in pregnancies. Many of the
animals that survive to birth die soon after, or develop
abnormalities of the lung, liver and other organs.
Jaenisch and colleagues at MIT's Whitehead Institute, working with
Ryuzo Yanagimachi of the University of Hawaii, who was the first to
clone mice, made dozens of cloned mice and then looked at the
activity of 10,000 genes using a gene chip.
Writing in this week's issue of the Proceedings of the National
Academy of Sciences, they looked mostly at the placentas of the
newborn mice, long assumed to be the source of the problem, but also
at the livers of some of the clones.
GENE CHIP SHOWS ABNORMAL GENES
They found many abnormal genes. The pattern was so clear that they
could tell normal mice from cloned mice by looking at the results of
the gene chip study, they reported.
"There is no reason in the world to assume that any other mammal,
including humans, would be different from mice," Jaenisch said.
He said the finding should convince anyone who doubted the danger of
trying to clone a human, referring to last summer's debate between
he and other cloning experts, and three scientists who said they
planned to try to clone human babies to help infertile couples.
"It settles the old question ... about how normal can clones be,"
Jaenisch said.
The three scientists have each said they are on the verge of
creating a cloned baby but none has produced evidence that convinces
scientists such as Jaenisch.
The issue has been debated in the U.S. Congress and competing bills
would outlaw attempts to clone a human being, and some would outlaw
using cloning technology in human beings at all.
Several cloning researchers have said their cloned livestock, such
as cattle, sheep and pigs, are normal and healthy if they get past
birth.
Jaenisch believes genetic abnormalities will be found even in these
seemingly normal animals. Some of the abnormalities are simply not
fatal, he said.
Many of the problems the team found were in so-called imprinted
genes, involved in the development of the embryo. In the imprinting
process only the copies of a gene that a baby gets from its father
are turned on.
"Almost 50 percent of those were incorrectly expressed," Jaenisch
said.
That may mean that so-called therapeutic cloning, which uses cloning
technology to make human cells for use in medical treatments, would
be safe, he said.
"In therapeutic cloning you don't form an embryo," Jaenisch said,
noting it went to an early stage of development in which a ball of
about 100 cells is formed.
"In cloning most, if not all, problems arise during embryonic
development," he added.
Copyright © 2002 Reuters Limited. All rights reserved.
--
______________________________________________________
Learning French is trivial: the word for horse is cheval,
and everything else follows in the same way. -- Alan J. Perlis
______________________________________________________
Anime at the Last Stop Cafe: http://www.xerez.demon.co.uk/anime
Poster Formerly Known as Anonymous
Matt Durrant wrote:
>
> That's hardly news. Didn't they have to clone Dolly the sheep hundreds of
> times before they got one that worked, so to speak?
The process goes something like this: First, you need about 200 egg
donors. The DNA of the donor creature is inserted into each egg, and
only about 40 survive that process and show signs of fertilization.
Those that survive are placed in a female 'volunteer' (animals can't
volunteer, after all) in groups of 5 to 8, depending on the species.
Probability says that of those females, only one will actuall get
pregnant. And of the eggs inserted only 1 will actuall become a living creature.
Robert Hutchinson
> >>The process of cloning introduces the genetic mutations, and there
> >>seems no immediate way around the problem, Rudolf Jaenisch and
> >>colleagues at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology reported.
>
> Craxton>Do they go into any details? How can you bring "bad genes" into
> Craxton>the mix if you're just making a carbon copy of a healthy
> Craxton>creature's genes?
>
> Because it's not a perfect copy. We need a way to disable DNA's
> macrovision copy-protection.
They'll prosecute you for tampering with God's watermark, you know.
--
Robert Hutchinson | "[Destiny's Child] got booed at the NBA
| playoffs. Even men in plush animal costumes
| don't get booed at the NBA playoffs."
| -- Fametracker.com
Roshnikasumo
While enough fanarts have made jokes about Mirelle in Misato's outfits, how
widespead has the Kirika as a Pigmented Rei gotten??
Lord Craxton
"Robert Hutchinson" <ser...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.17ebfa58f...@news.vol.com...
> Arthur Levesque says...
> > >>The process of cloning introduces the genetic mutations, and there
> > >>seems no immediate way around the problem, Rudolf Jaenisch and
> > >>colleagues at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology reported.
> >
> > Craxton>Do they go into any details? How can you bring "bad genes" into
> > Craxton>the mix if you're just making a carbon copy of a healthy
> > Craxton>creature's genes?
> >
> > Because it's not a perfect copy. We need a way to disable DNA's
> > macrovision copy-protection.
>
> They'll prosecute you for tampering with God's watermark, you know.
>
Screw God and the high horse he rode in on. "Proprietary Technology" my ass,
he just doesn't want everyone to see how sloppily he programs...
-Lord Craxton
Tim Hammerquist
> Screw God and the high horse he rode in on. "Proprietary
> Technology" my ass, he just doesn't want everyone to see how
> sloppily he programs...
Without even touching on the religious implications, let me just
say that he hasn't issued a copyright, nor has the celestial
court ever indicted stem-cell researchers.
... We just haven't developed a workable decompiler. :)
Tim Hammerquist
--
How do I type "for i in *.dvi do xdvi i done" in a GUI?
-- discussion in comp.os.linux.misc
Frank Raymond Michaels
Sounds like way too much work just to get a sheep.
How about a boy sheep, a girl sheep, and some Barry White music...?
----
FRM (Rubbin' wool, makin' mutton, whatever you wanna call it...)
Kakarotto
S.t.A.n.L.e.E
On Sun, 15 Sep 2002, Kakarotto wrote:
>
> On Sun, 15 Sep 2002, Frank Raymond Michaels wrote:
>
> > Sounds like way too much work just to get a sheep.
> > How about a boy sheep, a girl sheep, and some Barry White music...?
>
>
I dunno. Ask the sheep.
Laters. =)
Stan
--
_______ ________ _______ ____ ___ ___ ______ ______
| __|__ __| _ | \ | | | | _____| _____|
|__ | | | | _ | |\ | |___| ____|| ____|
|_______| |__| |__| |__|___| \ ___|_______|______|______|
__| | ( )
/ _ | |/ Stanlee Dometita sta...@cif.rochester.edu
| ( _| | U of Rochester cif.rochester.edu/~stanlee
\ ______| _______ ____ ___
/ \ / \ | _ | \ | |
/ \/ \| _ | |\ |
/___/\/\___|__| |__|___| \ ___|
Ronny Cook
> news:jzOvQkLz...@xerez.nospam.co.uk...
> > No wonder Rei Ayanami is so weird....
> >
> > US Study Says All Clones Genetically Abnormal
> >
> > WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Cloned mice have hundreds of abnormal genes,
> > which explains why so many cloned animals die at or before birth and
> > proves it would be irresponsible to clone a human being, scientists
> > said.
> Do they go into any details? How can you bring "bad genes" into the mix if
> you're just making a carbon copy of a healthy creature's genes?
>
This page gives a reasonable outline of how the current cloning
technology works:
http://www.howstuffworks.com/cloning2.htm
Basically the current cloning process is just "near enough" but doesn't
produce a true clone. There's a few places in the process where DNA
damage can occur, and it does.
Most of this has been at least suspected for a while. Likely the
Washington U. study actually *proves* what everybody suspected.
But that's the way science works... which is why you sometimes see
daft studies proving things you always "knew". :-)
obAnime: what's the least clone-like clone in anime? The best
example I can think of is actually from the OMG manga, when
Mara clones Urd... maybe the alter-Lina from "Mirror, Mirror"
in Slayers Book of Spells? But that Lina wasn't really a clone.
...Ronny
D B Malmquist
>
> "Lord Craxton" <cra...@erols.com> wrote in message
> news:alrms3$pmq$1...@bob.news.rcn.net...
> >
> > "Shez" <see...@nospam.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
> > news:jzOvQkLz...@xerez.nospam.co.uk...
> > > No wonder Rei Ayanami is so weird....
> > >
> > > US Study Says All Clones Genetically Abnormal
> > >
> > > WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Cloned mice have hundreds of abnormal genes,
> > > which explains why so many cloned animals die at or before birth and
> > > proves it would be irresponsible to clone a human being, scientists
> > > said.
> [...]
> > Do they go into any details? How can you bring "bad genes" into the mix if
> > you're just making a carbon copy of a healthy creature's genes?
> >
> Because it's not a carbon copy. <shrug>
>
> This page gives a reasonable outline of how the current cloning
> technology works:
> http://www.howstuffworks.com/cloning2.htm
>
> Basically the current cloning process is just "near enough" but doesn't
> produce a true clone. There's a few places in the process where DNA
> damage can occur, and it does.
Also if I understand correctly there is some "state" information
associated with the genes in each specific nucleus, indicating which
genes are activated or inactivated. The cloning process apparently
creates a nucleus whose state only approximates rather than perfectly
duplicates that of a fertilized egg. As a corollary it is suspected
that *children* of a clone (should the clone survive to have children)
could thus be normal.
> Most of this has been at least suspected for a while. Likely the
> Washington U. study actually *proves* what everybody suspected.
> But that's the way science works... which is why you sometimes see
> daft studies proving things you always "knew". :-)
>
> obAnime: what's the least clone-like clone in anime? The best
> example I can think of is actually from the OMG manga, when
> Mara clones Urd... maybe the alter-Lina from "Mirror, Mirror"
> in Slayers Book of Spells? But that Lina wasn't really a clone.
How about the chibi-Linas & chibi-Gourrys created by a faulty
copy process in "Slayers" season 1?
- dbm
Ronny Cook
"D B Malmquist" <d.b.ma...@com.swap-com-and-rcn.rcn> wrote in message
news:3D86EE04...@com.swap-com-and-rcn.rcn...
> Ronny Cook wrote:
> > obAnime: what's the least clone-like clone in anime? The best
> > example I can think of is actually from the OMG manga, when
> > Mara clones Urd... maybe the alter-Lina from "Mirror, Mirror"
> > in Slayers Book of Spells? But that Lina wasn't really a clone.
>
> How about the chibi-Linas & chibi-Gourrys created by a faulty
> copy process in "Slayers" season 1?
>
> - dbm
Yes, but they were Lina Concentrate, not anti-Lina. :-) (Not that
they lasted long enough to be sure.)
OK, spoilers for Slayers Book of Spells ("Mirror, Mirror" and
"Scary Chimera Plan")... basically in case somebody wants to know
what the deal is/was with "Mirror, Mirror".
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
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.
.
The mirror of the title is feared because it creates a
"mirror version" - basically the opposite - of its target.
The idea is that the mirror version will then be on the side
of the guy with the mirror.
Unfortunately it mirrors *everything*. So loudmouthed,
unpricipled and selfish(*) Lina produces a clone who is
shy, seeks to help others but reeeeally doesn't want
to hurt anyone. Nahga's clone is, mainly, very bashful
(and extremely embarrassed by what she's wearing.)
Lina talks alter-Lina into helping her defeat the bad guy
"for his own good".
Also on Book of Spells is Scary Chimera Plan, where
somebody clones Nahga and you wind up with eleven
Nahgas.. all with her laugh. People flee in terror. But
those clones are mainly scary because they *resemble*
Nahga.
...Ronny
(*) This is grossly unfair to Lina as anyone who's see the
TV series can attest - Lina always *pretends* not to care
about right & wrong but despite the occasional burst of
greed she always seems to be with the good guys.
Jon 'Ojin' Rowbottom
said.
0.o;
Now theres hubris for you. Either this man has been horribly misquoted,
or... ugh. 'Well, we can't do it now, so I guess that we'll never be able to
do it. Better stop the research, guys.'
Not good at all.
--
Jon 'Ojin' Rowbottom
"And of the angel that appeared unto her;
and gave her an Aramani jacket to cover her nakedness
and told her she was saved."