Kawasaki is next
Brett Robson
To any Sepponians out these, please tell your navy to stop flying fucking F-14s
over my house! Go back to Okinawa and fly over Ryan's place - he likes that sort
of thing.
If you are looking for the Mosque, that's in Yoyogi which is a completely
different perfecture. We don't have any oil and I've seen any suspicious Arab
looking people except the Israelis out the front of the station.
---
"he [John Ashcroft] deliberately left Jesus out of office prayers to avoid
offending non-Christians." - Ben Shapiro 27/2/2003
mtfe...@netscape.net
> To any Sepponians out these, please tell your navy to stop flying fucking F-14s
Where exists, please, this Sepponia of which you speak?
Mike
Brett Robson
>
>Brett Robson <jet...@deja.com> wrote:
>
>>To any Sepponians out these, please tell your navy to stop flying fucking F-14s
>
>Where exists, please, this Sepponia of which you speak?
>
>
It's a federation of the Northern Colonies, Southern Colonies, Louisana Purchae
and Western Territories, and ruled by King Bush II. Some say Canadia is part of
Sepponia but I'm not sure.
Kevin Wayne Williams
> On Thu, 12 Jun 2003 03:31:16 +0000 (UTC), mtfe...@netscape.net ...
>
>>Brett Robson <jet...@deja.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>To any Sepponians out these, please tell your navy to stop flying fucking F-14s
>>
>>Where exists, please, this Sepponia of which you speak?
>
> It's a federation of the Northern Colonies, Southern Colonies, Louisana Purchae
> and Western Territories, and ruled by King Bush II. Some say Canadia is part of
> Sepponia but I'm not sure.
You forgot Northern Mexico and the Republic of Texas.
KWW
Brett Robson
Thanks for that. We also forgot that Russian bit in the north west and British
Polynesia.
Michael Cash
<nih...@paxonet.kom> belched the alphabet and kept on going with:
And the Gadsden Purchase. Mustn't forget the Gadsden Purchase.
--
Michael Cash
"I am Elmer J. Fudd, millionaire. I own a mansion and a yacht."
Elmer J. Fudd
Millionaire
mtfe...@netscape.net
> On Thu, 12 Jun 2003 03:31:16 +0000 (UTC), mtfe...@netscape.net ...
>>
>>Brett Robson <jet...@deja.com> wrote:
>>
>>>To any Sepponians out these, please tell your navy to stop flying fucking F-14s
>>
>>Where exists, please, this Sepponia of which you speak?
> It's a federation of the Northern Colonies, Southern Colonies, Louisana Purchae
> and Western Territories, and ruled by King Bush II. Some say Canadia is part of
> Sepponia but I'm not sure.
Thank you large.
My map shows this not. Is it part of break up former Republic of Soviet
Unionized Socialists?
Mike
mtfe...@netscape.net
> On Thu, 12 Jun 2003 03:31:16 +0000 (UTC), mtfe...@netscape.net ...
>>
>>Brett Robson <jet...@deja.com> wrote:
>>
>>>To any Sepponians out these, please tell your navy to stop flying fucking F-14s
>>
>>Where exists, please, this Sepponia of which you speak?
> It's a federation of the Northern Colonies, Southern Colonies, Louisana Purchae
> and Western Territories, and ruled by King Bush II. Some say Canadia is part of
> Sepponia but I'm not sure.
Thank you large.
Brett Robson
>
>
>To any Sepponians out these, please tell your navy to stop flying fucking F-14s
>over my house! Go back to Okinawa and fly over Ryan's place - he likes that sort
>of thing.
>
>If you are looking for the Mosque, that's in Yoyogi which is a completely
>different perfecture. We don't have any oil and I've seen any suspicious Arab
>looking people except the Israelis out the front of the station.
>
AND THAT GOES FOR HELICOPTERS TOO!!!!!!
Rodney Webster
Brett Robson <jet...@deja.com> wrote:
> On 11 Jun 2003 20:01:14 -0700, Brett ...
> >
> >
> >To any Sepponians out these, please tell your navy to stop flying fucking F-14s
> >over my house! Go back to Okinawa and fly over Ryan's place - he likes that sort
> >of thing.
> >
> >If you are looking for the Mosque, that's in Yoyogi which is a completely
> >different perfecture. We don't have any oil and I've seen any suspicious Arab
> >looking people except the Israelis out the front of the station.
>
> AND THAT GOES FOR HELICOPTERS TOO!!!!!!
Weren't you the one putting down people complaining about the US forces,
saying that they were a neccessary evil and how glad we should be that
they are here to keep our trade lanes open?
--
Rodney Webster
http://knot.mine.nu/
Brett Robson
Not in my backyard.
Rodney Webster
Brett Robson <jet...@deja.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 16 Jun 2003 22:55:46 +0900, Rodney ...
> >
> >Weren't you the one putting down people complaining about the US forces,
> >saying that they were a neccessary evil and how glad we should be that
> >they are here to keep our trade lanes open?
> >
>
> Not in my backyard.
You have managed to summed up in a very simple manner the feelings of
many Okinawans (as well as bin Laden).
Of course in the case of the Okinawans they have to put up with rifle
ranges near their schools, highways being closed for artilery practice,
and US bases taking up a large portion of their backyards.
Michael Cash
<rgw_n...@knot.mine.nu> belched the alphabet and kept on going
with:
>In article <bcln4...@drn.newsguy.com>,
They're allowed to collect and sell as scrap metal any and all
shrapnel they find on their own property, and keep the proceeds as
well. I don't know what they're bitching about. They should think
about how good they have it. I hate ingrates.
Ryan Ginstrom
news:cq70fvkmafjjcu51m...@4ax.com...
> They're allowed to collect and sell as scrap metal any and all
> shrapnel they find on their own property, and keep the proceeds as
> well. I don't know what they're bitching about. They should think
> about how good they have it. I hate ingrates.
Yes, and it's a pretty simple process really. First you have to report
finding US government property to the base authorities, then fill out forms
2331a/6, 4785974-b, and Z-23, wait about 6 months, and get authorization to
dispose of said ordinance by proper means. If said ordinance killed you or
one of your family members, well it's just a form 5489-OK and you may be
reimbursed up to $100 per fatality, and $50 per serious injury.
Speaking of unexploded ordinance, there's still a bunch of it left here on
the island. The authorities are blowing up unexploded ordinance they find to
this day.
Begin has a song called "obaa jiman no bakudan nabe," which is about an old
lady who uses an unexploded bomb she found lying in a field as her pot. I
hope she cleaned out the gunpowder before using it.
But getting back to the blackhawks circling over people's houses, when the
bases were first built they were in undeveloped areas with very few people
living nearby. Over the years, the Okinawan population has boomed (remember
Okinawa has Japan's highest birthrate, plus there is positive immigration
from the mainland), and so as Kevin would say, most of the people
complaining today have "moved to the nuisance."
What is to me a more interesting question than the nuisance factor is the
fact that a lot of prime Okinawan real estate is being taken up by the
bases. Okinawa is after all a smallish island, and things are getting
crowded. I am sure that in the long run, returning most or all of the bases
to the Okinawans would benefit the economy, but in the short run they'd
suffer big-time. Okinawa's economy is in the shits, and the bases are a big
source of income for the island, both in terms of employment and buying
local products.
Another question is what to do with the land. Most of the
Japanese-government initiatives to stimulate the economy involve moving
low-paying jobs there that still require Japanese, such as call centers, or
building big hotels whose profits are all sent back to the mainland.
--
Regards,
Ryan Ginstrom
Michael Cash
<gins...@hotmail.com> belched the alphabet and kept on going with:
>Speaking of unexploded ordinance, there's still a bunch of it left here on
>the island. The authorities are blowing up unexploded ordinance they find to
>this day.
Why should the military get the blame for unexploded ordinances? They
had no say in the matter.
>
>Begin has a song called "obaa jiman no bakudan nabe," which is about an old
>lady who uses an unexploded bomb she found lying in a field as her pot. I
>hope she cleaned out the gunpowder before using it.
Isn't she that photographer's grandmother?
>
>But getting back to the blackhawks circling over people's houses, when the
>bases were first built they were in undeveloped areas with very few people
>living nearby. Over the years, the Okinawan population has boomed (remember
>Okinawa has Japan's highest birthrate, plus there is positive immigration
>from the mainland), and so as Kevin would say, most of the people
>complaining today have "moved to the nuisance."
>
>What is to me a more interesting question than the nuisance factor is the
>fact that a lot of prime Okinawan real estate is being taken up by the
>bases. Okinawa is after all a smallish island, and things are getting
>crowded. I am sure that in the long run, returning most or all of the bases
>to the Okinawans would benefit the economy, but in the short run they'd
>suffer big-time. Okinawa's economy is in the shits, and the bases are a big
>source of income for the island, both in terms of employment and buying
>local products.
In some of Sepponia's western states, outrageous percentages of the
land area are owned by the federal government. I think the Okinawans
should go there and take stoicism lessons.
>
>Another question is what to do with the land. Most of the
>Japanese-government initiatives to stimulate the economy involve moving
>low-paying jobs there that still require Japanese, such as call girl centers,
You got those down there too? Around here, practically every telephone
pole is plastered with advertisements for 出張ヘルス or the like.
> or
>building big hotels whose profits are all sent back to the mainland.
Maybe Okinawa should declare independence and then ask for ODA grants
from Tokyo.
Ryan Ginstrom
> In some of Sepponia's western states, outrageous percentages of the
> land area are owned by the federal government. I think the Okinawans
> should go there and take stoicism lessons.
Coupla points. First, in Sepponia's western states you can move a few miles
to the left or right and find some more space. In Okinawa you move a few
miles to the left or right and you find ocean. Second, there's a big
difference between having a base of your own country's military vs. having
one of an occupying force, no matter how friendly the relations between your
countries. And third, nobody gives a rat's ass about what happens in some of
Sepponia's western states, unless it's northern California.
> You got those down there too? Around here, practically every telephone
> pole is plastered with advertisements for 出張ヘルス or the like.
Don't remind me of my failures! If only I could have told all those places
that I don't wear shoes in the house, they wouldn't have hung up on me!
> Maybe Okinawa should declare independence and then ask for ODA grants
> from Tokyo.
The Okinawans are nothing if not pragmatic. They have always known that
they've got to hitch their wagons onto the strongest power in the region.
Besides, an ODA grant from Japan would just be tagged for another huge hotel
owned by a Japanese company.
--
Regards,
Ryan Ginstrom
mtfe...@netscape.net
> "Michael Cash" <mike...@sunfield.ne.jp> wrote in message
> news:i0g0fv0kh1eshec91...@4ax.com...
>> In some of Sepponia's western states, outrageous percentages of the
>> land area are owned by the federal government. I think the Okinawans
>> should go there and take stoicism lessons.
> Coupla points. First, in Sepponia's western states you can move a few miles
> to the left or right and find some more space. In Okinawa you move a few
> miles to the left or right and you find ocean. Second, there's a big
Sounds like San Francisco.
> difference between having a base of your own country's military vs. having
> one of an occupying force, no matter how friendly the relations between your
> countries. And third, nobody gives a rat's ass about what happens in some of
> Sepponia's western states, unless it's northern California.
Where *IS* this Sepponia?
Mike
Rodney Webster
"Ryan Ginstrom" <gins...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> <snip>
> Speaking of unexploded ordinance, there's still a bunch of it left here on
> the island. The authorities are blowing up unexploded ordinance they find to
> this day.
>
> Begin has a song called "obaa jiman no bakudan nabe," which is about an old
> lady who uses an unexploded bomb she found lying in a field as her pot. I
> hope she cleaned out the gunpowder before using it.
That might actually improve the flavour. Apparently some forms of
explosive material used in bulllets have addictive narcotic qualities,
and child soldiers in African States would break open their bullets and
consume the powder within for the high they experienced.
> <snip>
> What is to me a more interesting question than the nuisance factor is the
> fact that a lot of prime Okinawan real estate is being taken up by the
> bases. Okinawa is after all a smallish island, and things are getting
> crowded. I am sure that in the long run, returning most or all of the bases
> to the Okinawans would benefit the economy, but in the short run they'd
> suffer big-time. Okinawa's economy is in the shits, and the bases are a big
> source of income for the island, both in terms of employment and buying
> local products.
I know that a large portion of the Okinawan population works on-base, or
in a job related to the bases, but I wonder how much US money actually
goes into the local economy. I thought that all (or at least the
majority of) food and other goods were shipped in from the States.
> Another question is what to do with the land. Most of the
> Japanese-government initiatives to stimulate the economy involve moving
> low-paying jobs there that still require Japanese, such as call centers, or
> building big hotels whose profits are all sent back to the mainland.
There have been attempts to set up "techno-parks", taking advantage of
Okinawa's proximity to Taiwan, but as far as I know these have been far
from succesful.
Re: your comment in a later post about "move a few miles to the left or
right and you find ocean," the following link has a map of Okinawa
showing the land taken up by US bases:
http://www.asahi-net.or.jp/~lk5k-oosm/base.html
As can be seen a sizeable portion in the central areas of the island is
taken up by bases - this fact is often cited as the reason that there is
no railroad in Okinawa.
The following page has some information on the bases in Okinawa:
http://www.asahi-net.or.jp/~lk5k-oosm/info.html
The statistics are probably all about a decade old, though.
The following graph is interesting:
http://www.asahi-net.or.jp/~lk5k-oosm/info/crime3.html
No source for the statistics are given, but if it is correct the crime
rate for Marines in Japan is at least double that of the bases listed
in the US.
The following is a graph of crimes commited by people in the US
military, or their relatives by prefecture:
http://www.asahi-net.or.jp/~lk5k-oosm/info/crime2.html
Again there is no detailed source given, but you can see that the number
of crimes is higher for Okinawa. However, as the following graph shows
the number of military personnel based in Okinawa is much larger than in
mainland Japan, so the crime rate (per serviceman) itself is not
necessarily higher.
http://www.asahi-net.or.jp/~lk5k-oosm/info/gunjin.html
I would imagine that many Japanese people, although protesting the bases
in Okinawa, have an attitude similar to Brett's "not in my backyard."
Whenever there is a high-profile crime commited by a US serviceman in
Okinawa there is much complaining about the bases, but when the topic
then switches to moving them to somewhere else in Japan, the silence is
deafening - except for the pleas from those areas whose economies are so
poor that they are desperate enough to actual want the bases moved to
their location.
John W.
argue that your corner of Sepponia is less Sepponian than others. Or
maybe it's more. I forget.
John W.
mtfe...@netscape.net
> mtfe...@netscape.net wrote in message news:<bcpsa6$bke$1...@news.Stanford.EDU>...
>> > difference between having a base of your own country's military vs. having
>> > one of an occupying force, no matter how friendly the relations between your
>> > countries. And third, nobody gives a rat's ass about what happens in some of
>> > Sepponia's western states, unless it's northern California.
>> Where *IS* this Sepponia?
>>
> All around you. You're virtually swimming in Sepponians, though I'd
> argue that your corner of Sepponia is less Sepponian than others. Or
> maybe it's more. I forget.
Sorry; not ringing any bells.
Maybe haiku description would help.
Mike
Michael Cash
belched the alphabet and kept on going with:
>Where *IS* this Sepponia?
I think you might be standing on it.
John W.
seen through the Japanese eye
in Sepponia
John W.
mtfe...@netscape.net
> On Wed, 18 Jun 2003 14:17:42 +0000 (UTC), mtfe...@netscape.net
> belched the alphabet and kept on going with:
>>Where *IS* this Sepponia?
> I think you might be standing on it.
Sorry, I'm here in the Republic of San Francisco.
You can even find it on a map.
Mike
mtfe...@netscape.net
> mtfe...@netscape.net wrote in message news:<bcq9cf$nab$1...@news.Stanford.EDU>...
>> John W. <worth...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>> >> Where *IS* this Sepponia?
>> >>
>> > argue that your corner of Sepponia is less Sepponian than others. Or
>> > maybe it's more. I forget.
>>
>> Sorry; not ringing any bells.
>>
>> Maybe haiku description would help.
>>
> Many gaijin
> seen through the Japanese eye
> in Sepponia
Roppongi?
Mike
Ryan Ginstrom
"Rodney Webster" <rgw_n...@knot.mine.nu> wrote in message
news:rgw_news001-2216...@news01.so-net.ne.jp...
> I know that a large portion of the Okinawan population works on-base, or
> in a job related to the bases, but I wonder how much US money actually
> goes into the local economy. I thought that all (or at least the
> majority of) food and other goods were shipped in from the States.
You're right, I should have said "goods and services" (I can hear the
chuckles from the peanut gallery now). Around 30,000 Okinawans lease land
directly to the military, and many, many others lease housing to military
personnel off-base, at prices around 1.5 -2x the market rate.
> There have been attempts to set up "techno-parks", taking advantage of
> Okinawa's proximity to Taiwan, but as far as I know these have been far
> from succesful.
Yeah, the central government's big theme is to turn Okinawa into some kind
of IT paradise, since manufacturing is impossible given the logistics.
Basically this has resulted in a few call centers, and bringing optical
fiber to Okinawa and Ishigaki.
> As can be seen a sizeable portion in the central areas of the island is
> taken up by bases - this fact is often cited as the reason that there is
> no railroad in Okinawa.
They have a monorail now! (Another brilliant Japanese-government scheme for
"kasseika"-ing Okinawa)
> The following graph is interesting:
> http://www.asahi-net.or.jp/~lk5k-oosm/info/crime3.html
>
> No source for the statistics are given, but if it is correct the crime
> rate for Marines in Japan is at least double that of the bases listed
> in the US.
Interesting. But of course, I would be very leery of a direct comparison of
cases going to court against military in Japan vs. the US.
I also wish they would give citations.
> I would imagine that many Japanese people, although protesting the bases
> in Okinawa, have an attitude similar to Brett's "not in my backyard."
I think that most Okinawans want the base presence drastically reduced, but
I'm not sure if they want them all gone. Over the past few years some forces
have been pulled out, and some land returned, but it seems more of a token
gesture at this point.
On the surface, the huge outrage whenever there is a new crime by military
in Japan seems out of proportion. But I think that this is only a symptom of
long years of resentment and anger that have built up, and which by now is
probably irreparable, even if the military were to walk on eggshells. The
fact that they aren't doing so of course does not help the matter.
--
Regards,
Ryan Ginstrom
Bryan Parker
>I would imagine that many Japanese people, although protesting the bases
>in Okinawa, have an attitude similar to Brett's "not in my backyard."
>Whenever there is a high-profile crime commited by a US serviceman in
>Okinawa there is much complaining about the bases, but when the topic
>then switches to moving them to somewhere else in Japan, the silence is
>deafening - except for the pleas from those areas whose economies are so
>poor that they are desperate enough to actual want the bases moved to
>their location.
The location of the Atsugi base saved me a whole
lotta money -
http://www.trainerbryan.com/apts.html
(The maps on the scanned docs are not maps of
where our property is. We are just entitled to the
same deal as the people in those areas.)
--
Bryan
gaijenetic engineering -
noun: the technology of preparing recombinant gaijiNA
in vitro by cutting up gaijiNA molecules and splicing
together fragments from more than one organism
Declan Murphy
> On Thu, 19 Jun 2003 00:11:40 +0000 (UTC), mtfe...@netscape.net
> belched the alphabet and kept on going with:
>
>>Michael Cash <mike...@sunfield.ne.jp> wrote:
>>
>>>On Wed, 18 Jun 2003 14:17:42 +0000 (UTC), mtfe...@netscape.net
>>>belched the alphabet and kept on going with:
>>
>>>>Where *IS* this Sepponia?
>>>
>>>I think you might be standing on it.
>>
>>Sorry, I'm here in the Republic of San Francisco.
>>
>>You can even find it on a map.
>
>
> http://www.sunfield.ne.jp/images/map.jpg
>
> (Notice he has the Austrian edition?)
Not Found
The requested URL /images/map.jpg was not found on this server.
Apache/1.3.26 Server at www.sunfield.ne.jp Port 80
--
"All FDR undid was the value of the dollar"
Kevin Gowen (really)
Rodney Webster
Declan Murphy <declan...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Michael Cash wrote:
>
> > Not me. But I bet *this* guy could:
> >
> > http://www.sunfield.ne.jp/images/map.jpg
> >
> > (Notice he has the Austrian edition?)
>
> Not Found
> The requested URL /images/map.jpg was not found on this server.
>
> Apache/1.3.26 Server at www.sunfield.ne.jp Port 80
Elementary, my dear Watson!
In article <3r93fv83rlcm3brm1...@4ax.com>,
Michael Cash <mike...@sunfield.ne.jp> wrote:
Clue #1:
>
> Not me. But I bet *this* guy could:
>
> http://www.sunfield.ne.jp/images/map.jpg
>
> (Notice he has the Austrian edition?)
Clue #2:
> http://www.sunfield.ne.jp/~mike/
See: http://www.sunfield.ne.jp/~mike/images/map.jpg
Declan Murphy
> Elementary, my dear Watson!
<snip>
> See: http://www.sunfield.ne.jp/~mike/images/map.jpg
naru hodo.
I love analog navi.
Michael Cash
<declan...@hotmail.com> belched the alphabet and kept on going
with:
>Rodney Webster wrote:
>
>> Elementary, my dear Watson!
><snip>
>> See: http://www.sunfield.ne.jp/~mike/images/map.jpg
>
>naru hodo.
>
>I love analog navi.
I left the little ふにゃふにゃ thing out because I don't think it
looks manly.
Rodney Webster
Bryan Parker <puntspe...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> The location of the Atsugi base saved me a whole
> lotta money -
> http://www.trainerbryan.com/apts.html
> (The maps on the scanned docs are not maps of
> where our property is. We are just entitled to the
> same deal as the people in those areas.)
From the lin above: "Yesterday I informed my architects..."
There you go, getting all uppity on us and trying to show us poor folk
off.
Rodney Webster
"Ryan Ginstrom" <gins...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> "Rodney Webster" <rgw_n...@knot.mine.nu> wrote in message
> news:rgw_news001-2216...@news01.so-net.ne.jp...
> > I know that a large portion of the Okinawan population works on-base, or
> > in a job related to the bases, but I wonder how much US money actually
> > goes into the local economy. I thought that all (or at least the
> > majority of) food and other goods were shipped in from the States.
>
> You're right, I should have said "goods and services" (I can hear the
> chuckles from the peanut gallery now). Around 30,000 Okinawans lease land
> directly to the military, and many, many others lease housing to military
> personnel off-base, at prices around 1.5 -2x the market rate.
Perhaps another important point is that the bases may be causing, or
increasing stagnancy in the Okinawan economy. Income generated from
land leased to the military will only increase in value marginally, as
land prices increase, whereas building a business on that same land
would have the *potential* to increase the income generated much more.
Similarly, there must be a glass-ceiling for Okinawans working for the
bases in terms of salary and position - obviously no Okinawan is every
going to be promoted to head of the base, to give an extreme example.
("Glass-ceiling" is probably not appropriate, as I would assume the
barriers to advancement are very clear.)
So although both leasing land to the military, and working for the
military, no doubt provide a good income, they are both dead-ends in
terms of development.
Of course, as has already been pointed out, even if the Okinawans were
free to use the land as they pleased, it doesn't mean they could build
succesful businesses, or that any profit would not be just syphoned off
to the mainland.
> <snip> <snip>
> > The following graph is interesting:
> > http://www.asahi-net.or.jp/~lk5k-oosm/info/crime3.html
> >
> > No source for the statistics are given, but if it is correct the crime
> > rate for Marines in Japan is at least double that of the bases listed
> > in the US.
>
> Interesting. But of course, I would be very leery of a direct comparison of
> cases going to court against military in Japan vs. the US.
In what way?
> I also wish they would give citations.
Yes, they could be comparing crime rates from entirely different groups
of crimes.
> > I would imagine that many Japanese people, although protesting the bases
> > in Okinawa, have an attitude similar to Brett's "not in my backyard."
>
> I think that most Okinawans want the base presence drastically reduced, but
> I'm not sure if they want them all gone. Over the past few years some forces
> have been pulled out, and some land returned, but it seems more of a token
> gesture at this point.
The US investment in Okinawa as a military staging point is obvious -
I've seen a couple of news reports on Japanese TV which show the huge
warehouses the US military have, filled with trucks, tanks, and freight
containers stacked high that are full of supplies, or which are self
contained field hospitals.
IIRC, they even have a couple of cargo ships in harbour somewhere that
are kept permanently loaded with equipment so they can set sail at a
moment's notice.
> On the surface, the huge outrage whenever there is a new crime by military
> in Japan seems out of proportion. But I think that this is only a symptom of
> long years of resentment and anger that have built up, and which by now is
> probably irreparable, even if the military were to walk on eggshells. The
> fact that they aren't doing so of course does not help the matter.
I get the feeling that it is the fact that US personnel are treated
differently when they commit a crime that causes the most outrage.
Naturally the Okinawans are angered by the crime itself, but the
militaries' refusal (as is currently their right) to not immediately
hand over suspects to the Japanese police no doubt conjurs up memories
of the '60s and '70s when servicemen would commit crimes and then be
sent back home to escape justice. As long as this situation continues,
the relationship between Okinawans and the US military will remain that
of conquerer and those subjugated.
Relationships are further soured by incidents such as when a top level
military official commented that servicemen who abducted and raped a
young girl should have used the money they spent on hiring a car on
buying a prostitute instead, or the leaking of an email where another
top level military official referred to Okinawan politicians as "wimps"
and "crazy".
Things like these make it hard to swallow US military talk about their
friendship and goodwill towards the Okinawan people.
Kevin Gowen
> the leaking of an email where another
> top level military official referred to Okinawan politicians as
> "wimps"
> and "crazy".
"Listen not at keyholes, lest ye be vexed"
> Things like these make it hard to swallow US military talk about their
> friendship and goodwill towards the Okinawan people.
--
Kevin Gowen
Ryan Ginstrom
> Perhaps another important point is that the bases may be causing, or
> increasing stagnancy in the Okinawan economy. Income generated from
> land leased to the military will only increase in value marginally, as
> land prices increase, whereas building a business on that same land
> would have the *potential* to increase the income generated much more.
Yep, I think that in the long run it would be best for the Okinawan economy
if the bases weren't here. The problem is in the short term -- all that
rental and other income gone, and nothing to replace it for the foreseeable
future. My fear is that the owners would sell it off to outsiders (including
mainland Japanese).
Ryan:
> > Interesting. But of course, I would be very leery of a direct comparison
of
> > cases going to court against military in Japan vs. the US.
>
> In what way?
>
> > I also wish they would give citations.
>
> Yes, they could be comparing crime rates from entirely different groups
> of crimes.
Exactly. That, and the likelihood of a crime being prosecuted in Japan in
the present climate, vs. in the US.
Not to say that this means the stats they gave aren't right. In fact, the
situation could be worse than they depict, since things like drinking by
servicemen under 21 and many forms of prostitution are legal here.
> The US investment in Okinawa as a military staging point is obvious -
True, but the Philippines were also an important base, especially wrt the
Taiwan situation.
In the end, what the region needs is for Japan to improve its relations with
its neighbors to the point where it can build up its own military presence,
and let us pull out. When will this happen though? Certainly not with the
Korean situation unresolved.
> I get the feeling that it is the fact that US personnel are treated
> differently when they commit a crime that causes the most outrage.
Yes. So even if things have changed (in (almost?) all cases the suspects are
eventually handed over now), but it's too little, too late.
Having been in the US military, I can say that there is a definite tendency
to circle up the wagons and protect your own, especially when it appears
that the serviceman is in for a lynching or kangaroo court (even if s/he may
be guilty). And while I don't have much sympathy for foreigners complaining
about being subjected to Japanese legal procedures, the military is surely a
different case.
That said, I also think it's important to not overemphasize the level of
opposition. Most demonstrations are small, and quite restrained. Usually the
big, roudy (in Japanese terms) demonstrations are when mainland Japanese fly
in to participate.
And almost never is the opposition directed at individual servicemen. The
one case I have heard was during the Iraq war; somebody went into the movie
theater parking lot, and put a flier on all the cars with "Y" license plates
saying, very politely, that the Okinawans wanted the military out because
they didn't feel safe with them there.
I would say that mainland Japanese get "naichaa kaere" more than US
servicemen get told to go home.
--
Regards,
Ryan Ginstrom
Bryan Parker
Try it again, brudder. me fixed it fer me Uncle
Jamal and Transmanians like you could understand
it gooder. http://www.trainerbryan.com/apts.html
Jason Cormier
"Bryan Parker" <puntspe...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Rodney Webster <rgw_n...@knot.mine.nu> said:
>
>> In article <qr63fvkc0smooig50...@4ax.com>,
>> Bryan Parker <puntspe...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>> The location of the Atsugi base saved me a whole
>>> lotta money -
>>> http://www.trainerbryan.com/apts.html
>>> (The maps on the scanned docs are not maps of
>>> where our property is. We are just entitled to the
>>> same deal as the people in those areas.)
>>
>> From the lin above: "Yesterday I informed my architects..."
>>
>> There you go, getting all uppity on us and trying to show us poor folk
>> off.
>
> Try it again, brudder. me fixed it fer me Uncle
> Jamal and Transmanians like you could understand
> it gooder. http://www.trainerbryan.com/apts.html
Mildly amusing. Now fix the Japanese documents in the same fashion and I'll
really be impressed.
Bryan Parker
>On Thu, 19 Jun 2003 23:41:46 +0900, Declan Murphy
><declan...@hotmail.com> belched the alphabet and kept on going
>with:
>
>>Rodney Webster wrote:
>>
>>> Elementary, my dear Watson!
>><snip>
>>> See: http://www.sunfield.ne.jp/~mike/images/map.jpg
>>
>>naru hodo.
>>
>>I love analog navi.
>
>I left the little ふにゃふにゃ thing out because I don't think it
>looks manly.
You never hesitated to whip your little
ふにゃふにゃ thing out around here.
Michael Cash
<puntspe...@yahoo.com> belched the alphabet and kept on going
with:
>Michael Cash <mike...@sunfield.ne.jp> said:
>
>>On Thu, 19 Jun 2003 23:41:46 +0900, Declan Murphy
>><declan...@hotmail.com> belched the alphabet and kept on going
>>with:
>>
>>>Rodney Webster wrote:
>>>
>>>> Elementary, my dear Watson!
>>><snip>
>>>> See: http://www.sunfield.ne.jp/~mike/images/map.jpg
>>>
>>>naru hodo.
>>>
>>>I love analog navi.
>>
>>I left the little ふにゃふにゃ thing out because I don't think it
>>looks manly.
>
>You never hesitated to whip your little
>ふにゃふにゃ thing out around here.
Check the calendar. What day of the week was it?
--
Michael Cash
"There was a time, Mr. Cash, when I believed you must be the most useless
thing in the world. But that was before I read a Microsoft help file."
Prof. Ernest T. Bass
Mount Pilot College
Bryan Parker
>On Sat, 21 Jun 2003 00:32:41 +0900, Bryan Parker
><puntspe...@yahoo.com> belched the alphabet and kept on going
>with:
>
>>Michael Cash <mike...@sunfield.ne.jp> said:
>>
>>>On Thu, 19 Jun 2003 23:41:46 +0900, Declan Murphy
>>><declan...@hotmail.com> belched the alphabet and kept on going
>>>with:
>>>
>>>>Rodney Webster wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Elementary, my dear Watson!
>>>><snip>
>>>>> See: http://www.sunfield.ne.jp/~mike/images/map.jpg
>>>>
>>>>naru hodo.
>>>>
>>>>I love analog navi.
>>>
>>>I left the little ふにゃふにゃ thing out because I don't think it
>>>looks manly.
>>
>>You never hesitated to whip your little
>>ふにゃふにゃ thing out around here.
>
>Check the calendar. What day of the week was it?
At least we agree that it is a feminine, little,
ふにゃふにゃ, GAIGIN SLABETTE.
--
Bryan
gaijeneration -
noun: the act of propagating
noun: group of gaijenetically related organisms
constituting a single step in the line of descent
noun: the normal time between successive gaijenerations
(Example: "They had to wait a gaijeneration for that
prejudice to fade")
noun: all foreigners living at the same time or
of approximately the same age
Michael Cash
>Michael Cash <mike...@sunfield.ne.jp> said:
>
>>On Sat, 21 Jun 2003 00:32:41 +0900, Bryan Parker
>><puntspe...@yahoo.com> belched the alphabet and kept on going
>>with:
>>
>>>Michael Cash <mike...@sunfield.ne.jp> said:
>>>
>>>>On Thu, 19 Jun 2003 23:41:46 +0900, Declan Murphy
>>>><declan...@hotmail.com> belched the alphabet and kept on going
>>>>with:
>>>>
>>>>>Rodney Webster wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Elementary, my dear Watson!
>>>>><snip>
>>>>>> See: http://www.sunfield.ne.jp/~mike/images/map.jpg
>>>>>
>>>>>naru hodo.
>>>>>
>>>>>I love analog navi.
>>>>
>>>>I left the little ふにゃふにゃ thing out because I don't think it
>>>>looks manly.
>>>
>>>You never hesitated to whip your little
>>>ふにゃふにゃ thing out around here.
>>
>>Check the calendar. What day of the week was it?
>
>At least we agree that it is a feminine, little,
>ふにゃふにゃ, GAIGIN SLABETTE.
It's a Hoho, whaddaya expect?
Bryan Parker
>>>>>I left the little ふにゃふにゃ thing out because I don't think it
>>>>>looks manly.
>>>>
>>>>You never hesitated to whip your little
>>>>ふにゃふにゃ thing out around here.
>>>
>>>Check the calendar. What day of the week was it?
>>
>>At least we agree that it is a feminine, little,
>>ふにゃふにゃ, GAIGIN SLABETTE.
>
>It's a Hoho, whaddaya expect?
Creamy filling?
Rodney Webster
Bryan Parker <puntspe...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Rodney Webster <rgw_n...@knot.mine.nu> said:
>
> >In article <qr63fvkc0smooig50...@4ax.com>,
> > Bryan Parker <puntspe...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> >> The location of the Atsugi base saved me a whole
> >> lotta money -
> >> http://www.trainerbryan.com/apts.html
> >> (The maps on the scanned docs are not maps of
> >> where our property is. We are just entitled to the
> >> same deal as the people in those areas.)
> >
> >From the lin above: "Yesterday I informed my architects..."
> >
> >There you go, getting all uppity on us and trying to show us poor folk
> >off.
>
> Try it again, brudder. me fixed it fer me Uncle
> Jamal and Transmanians like you could understand
> it gooder. http://www.trainerbryan.com/apts.html
Much better. Now I no longer feel insecure and threatened by your good
fortune.
Bryan Parker
>In article <v696fv0fju7ublmtp...@4ax.com>,
> Bryan Parker <puntspe...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> Rodney Webster <rgw_n...@knot.mine.nu> said:
>>
>> >In article <qr63fvkc0smooig50...@4ax.com>,
>> > Bryan Parker <puntspe...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >> The location of the Atsugi base saved me a whole
>> >> lotta money -
>> >> http://www.trainerbryan.com/apts.html
>> >> (The maps on the scanned docs are not maps of
>> >> where our property is. We are just entitled to the
>> >> same deal as the people in those areas.)
>> >
>> >From the lin above: "Yesterday I informed my architects..."
>> >
>> >There you go, getting all uppity on us and trying to show us poor folk
>> >off.
>>
>> Try it again, brudder. me fixed it fer me Uncle
>> Jamal and Transmanians like you could understand
>> it gooder. http://www.trainerbryan.com/apts.html
>
>Much better. Now I no longer feel insecure and threatened by your good
>fortune.
What shall I do about hiding my good looks and
gaigin girth? I miss ya, Lil Buddy.
Rodney Webster
"Ryan Ginstrom" <gins...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> "Rodney Webster" <rgw_n...@knot.mine.nu> wrote in message
> news:rgw_news001-250C...@news01.so-net.ne.jp...
>
> > The US investment in Okinawa as a military staging point is obvious -
>
> True, but the Philippines were also an important base, especially wrt the
> Taiwan situation.
Surely the closing of the Philippines base makes those in Okinawa and
Japan even more important? If the US were to pull out of Japan it would
create a large vaccum in the political situation, and greatly reduce the
US ability to carry out military operations. Hawaii just seems too far
away to be a realistic staging point for military action in the region,
and apart from Australia (too far South if something happens around
Taiwan / Korea) what nations are there that would allow US troops to be
stationed there?
> In the end, what the region needs is for Japan to improve its relations with
> its neighbors to the point where it can build up its own military presence,
> and let us pull out. When will this happen though? Certainly not with the
> Korean situation unresolved.
I won't be holding my breath waiting for that to happen.
> > I get the feeling that it is the fact that US personnel are treated
> > differently when they commit a crime that causes the most outrage.
>
> Yes. So even if things have changed (in (almost?) all cases the suspects are
> eventually handed over now), but it's too little, too late.
"Eventually" being the key word here - as long as this situation
continues they US forces will be viewed (correctly, IMHO) as "above the
(Japanese) law".
> Having been in the US military, I can say that there is a definite tendency
> to circle up the wagons and protect your own, especially when it appears
> that the serviceman is in for a lynching or kangaroo court (even if s/he may
> be guilty). And while I don't have much sympathy for foreigners complaining
> about being subjected to Japanese legal procedures, the military is surely a
> different case.
How so? Because the servicemen do not have a choice in where they are
stationed?
> That said, I also think it's important to not overemphasize the level of
> opposition. Most demonstrations are small, and quite restrained. Usually the
> big, roudy (in Japanese terms) demonstrations are when mainland Japanese fly
> in to participate.
That wouldn't surprise me. I've read (in an interview with Kurosawa
Akira, IIRC) that the situation is similar in Hiroshima, with mostly the
out-of-towners making a lot of noise, while the people from Hiroshima
wishing that everyone would shut up so that they could all forget that
they were turned into a radioactive slag-pile.
> And almost never is the opposition directed at individual servicemen. The
> one case I have heard was during the Iraq war; somebody went into the movie
> theater parking lot, and put a flier on all the cars with "Y" license plates
> saying, very politely, that the Okinawans wanted the military out because
> they didn't feel safe with them there.
I remember seeing an interview with an famous Okinawan pop singer from
the '60s & '70s. He said he participated in a large riot in 1970, where
rocks were thrown and car set on fire - and then in the evening
performed in a pub for US servicemen. Although there was a lot of
resentment for the military presence at the time, the Okinawan people
also had a lot of sympathy for the young US servicemen being sent off to
fight in Vietnam.
The following page briefly mentions the riot of 1970, as well as giving
an overview of post-war Okinawan history:
http://maps.unomaha.edu/Peterson/funda/Sidebar/Okinawa/Okinawa.html
> I would say that mainland Japanese get "naichaa kaere" more than US
> servicemen get told to go home.
In what way? Have you seen demonstrations calling for that, or is it
just comments you have heard from Okinawans?
Kevin Gowen
> In article <bcthkb$n1bc5$1...@ID-101276.news.dfncis.de>,
> "Ryan Ginstrom" <gins...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> "Rodney Webster" <rgw_n...@knot.mine.nu> wrote in message
>> news:rgw_news001-250C...@news01.so-net.ne.jp...
>
>>> differently when they commit a crime that causes the most outrage.
>>
>> Yes. So even if things have changed (in (almost?) all cases the
>> suspects are eventually handed over now), but it's too little, too
>> late.
>
> "Eventually" being the key word here - as long as this situation
> continues they US forces will be viewed (correctly, IMHO) as "above
> the (Japanese) law".
I think it is more accurate to say that there are times when they are
outside Japanese law, but this is hardly unique to Japan. US military
personnel are subject to the Uniform Code of Military Justice (specific
provisions are in Section 802). For example, if a cadet of the US Military
Academy date-rapes a civilian women that he meets at a Virginia bar, he is
subject to a general (Section 818) or special (Section 819) court-martial
rather than the Virginia criminal courts. It has always amazed me that there
is a segment of my country's citizens that is subject to an entirely
different set of rights, laws, and courts.
The SoFA that the US has with various states are each unique, but the host
country generally has the primary right to exercise jurisdiction for most
offenses. Jurisdiction over US military personnel in Japan is covered by
Article XVII of the US-Japan SoFA, and Japan generally has the primary right
to exercise jurisdiction for most offenses. However, in many of these cases
the Japanese elect not to exercise this right for one or more reasons
depending on the given circumstances in a case.
>> Having been in the US military, I can say that there is a definite
>> tendency to circle up the wagons and protect your own, especially
>> when it appears that the serviceman is in for a lynching or kangaroo
>> court (even if s/he may be guilty). And while I don't have much
>> sympathy for foreigners complaining about being subjected to
>> Japanese legal procedures, the military is surely a different case.
>
> How so? Because the servicemen do not have a choice in where they are
> stationed?
Perhaps that. Perhaps because most foreigners are generally not subject to
the US-Japan SoFA and UCMJ? Or, let's say a JET dancing bear commits Offense
X in Okinawa. My guess is that the prosecutor is going to have less of a
political axe to grind with the JET than he would with a USMC corporal who
commits Offense X.
--
Kevin Gowen
Ryan Ginstrom
> Surely the closing of the Philippines base makes those in Okinawa and
> Japan even more important? If the US were to pull out of Japan it would
> create a large vaccum in the political situation, and greatly reduce the
> US ability to carry out military operations. Hawaii just seems too far
Here is the solution: Bases in Taiwan!
> > Yes. So even if things have changed (in (almost?) all cases the suspects
are
> > eventually handed over now), but it's too little, too late.
>
> "Eventually" being the key word here - as long as this situation
> continues they US forces will be viewed (correctly, IMHO) as "above the
> (Japanese) law".
I think that this situation would generally be accepted today, if it were
not abused in the past. That is to say, if they had eventually turned over
suspects from the beginning, there would not be such a problem today.
Although the analogy is not perfect, think of extraditing suspects who have
fled to other countries -- a bit of bureaucratic crap is expected, but as
long as the suspect is eventually sent back for prosecution, everybody is
pretty much happy. But since there was abuse in the past, any delay or hint
at special treatment now draws outrage.
> > about being subjected to Japanese legal procedures, the military is
surely a
> > different case.
>
> How so? Because the servicemen do not have a choice in where they are
> stationed?
On the individual level yes, although this does not excuse illegal behavior.
But on the global level, the servicemen are under the SoFA, and so that is
the system under which they should be prosecuted.
I have stated this before, but I don't think the US military could function
in Japan without a measure of autonomy. So the only viable options are keep
the bases with the current SoFA or something similar, or scrap the bases
altogether. But putting US servicement completely under the jurisdiction of
the Japanese legal system is not an option, IMO.
I hate to say this, but a certain level of crime is probably inevitable,
given the demographic and situation. From parental control, to a repressive
training environment, then let loose on the streets of Japan, without any of
the recognized restraining influences (tabi no haji and all that). Think
about it: even the JETs are three years or so older than your average FOB
GI.
One American writer argued that servicemen should just be confined to base
for the duration of their tour, but that person has obviously never been in
the miltary, nor does he have any idea about the concept of morale.
As an aside, when I was stationed in Monterey CA, there was a group of
Australian soldiers there for training or somesuch. I swear, every weekend
those guys were involved in some sort of drunken brawl. Those not brawling
were just drunken.
> > I would say that mainland Japanese get "naichaa kaere" more than US
> > servicemen get told to go home.
>
> In what way? Have you seen demonstrations calling for that, or is it
> just comments you have heard from Okinawans?
No demonstrations, but I have heard this from both Okinawans and mainland
Japanese. There is quite a lot of resentment toward the Japanese by the
Okinawans, not so much for past misdeeds (the Okinawans are a pretty
forgiving lot), but for present discrimination on the one hand, and economic
domination on the other. I imagine the feelings are similar to what many
native Hawaiians have toward mainland US.
One of Reiko's uncles once told me that he would rather have had Reiko marry
a foreigner than a naichaa. I took this as high praise.
--
Regards,
Ryan Ginstrom
Kevin Gowen
> No demonstrations, but I have heard this from both Okinawans and
> mainland Japanese. There is quite a lot of resentment toward the
> Japanese by the Okinawans, not so much for past misdeeds (the
> Okinawans are a pretty forgiving lot), but for present discrimination
> on the one hand, and economic domination on the other. I imagine the
> feelings are similar to what many native Hawaiians have toward
> mainland US.
What sort of feelings do native Hawaiians have towards the mainland US? If
"native Hawaiian" means someone of Polynesian descent then I have a pretty
good guess, but if it means someone simply born and reared in Hawaii then I
have no idea.
--
Kevin Gowen
Ryan Ginstrom
"Kevin Gowen" <kgowen...@myfastmail.com> wrote in message
news:bd8j0e$pndo2$1...@ID-105084.news.dfncis.de...
> Ryan Ginstrom wrote:
> > No demonstrations, but I have heard this from both Okinawans and
> > mainland Japanese. There is quite a lot of resentment toward the
> > Japanese by the Okinawans, not so much for past misdeeds (the
> > Okinawans are a pretty forgiving lot), but for present discrimination
> > on the one hand, and economic domination on the other. I imagine the
> > feelings are similar to what many native Hawaiians have toward
> > mainland US.
>
> What sort of feelings do native Hawaiians have towards the mainland US? If
> "native Hawaiian" means someone of Polynesian descent
That's basically what I mean -- someone [of Polynesian descent] born and
raised in Hawaii, and whose acestors have been born and raised in Hawaii
since before the first contact with westerners.
--
Regards,
Ryan Ginstrom
Michael Cash
>Michael Cash <mike...@sunfield.ne.jp> said:
>
>>>>>>I left the little ふにゃふにゃ thing out because I don't think it
>>>>>>looks manly.
>>>>>
>>>>>You never hesitated to whip your little
>>>>>ふにゃふにゃ thing out around here.
>>>>
>>>>Check the calendar. What day of the week was it?
>>>
>>>At least we agree that it is a feminine, little,
>>>ふにゃふにゃ, GAIGIN SLABETTE.
>>
>>It's a Hoho, whaddaya expect?
>
>Creamy filling?
You'll have to give it the secret handshake.
Rodney Webster
Bryan Parker <puntspe...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Rodney Webster <rgw_n...@knot.mine.nu> said:
>
> >Much better. Now I no longer feel insecure and threatened by your good
> >fortune.
>
> What shall I do about hiding my good looks and
> gaigin girth?
Nothing could possible compensate for those. I have resigned myself to
having to live in your shadow (quite literally, some times).
> I miss ya, Lil Buddy.
If your aim were not so erratic, that would not be a problem, would it,
Bukkake Bryan?