Encoding...
Haluk Skywalker
ふくしゅうと言うのはけっしてまっすぐの道ではない。
I think Tarantino made fun of those old Japanese karate/ninja movies with
lots of absurd killings. Anyone else recall them from like 20 - 25 years
ago? Or is it just me?
Louise Bremner
> Sucked pretty damn bad. Only this sentence I found very impressive:
>
> ふくしゅうと言うのはけっしてまっすぐの道ではない。
Drat it--how did you do that? Most of the Japanese in posts I'm seeing
after "upgrading" has appeared as ??????, even from people I'd assume
have figgered out how to prevent it from getting mangled. Your first
attempt was also like that but this one was fine (even though you don't
have a "charset=?????" in your headers). So how did you do it, and how
do I persuade everyone else to do it?
> I think Tarantino made fun of those old Japanese karate/ninja movies with
> lots of absurd killings. Anyone else recall them from like 20 - 25 years
> ago? Or is it just me?
Jidaigeki episodes on TV still have that standard scene near the end,
where the hero hacks his way through a coupladozen minions before
dispatching the arch-villain of the day. Admittedly there's no blood nor
damage to those pretty costumes, though.
________________________________________________________________________
Louise Bremner (log at gol dot com)
If you want a reply by e-mail, don't write to my Yahoo address!
Haluk Skywalker
news:1g7agm1.128prr4njqz9hN%dame_...@yahoo.com...
> Haluk Skywalker <yokoo...@spam.net> wrote:
>
> > Sucked pretty damn bad. Only this sentence I found very impressive:
> >
>
> Drat it--how did you do that? Most of the Japanese in posts I'm seeing
> after "upgrading" has appeared as ??????, even from people I'd assume
> have figgered out how to prevent it from getting mangled. Your first
> attempt was also like that but this one was fine (even though you don't
> have a "charset=?????" in your headers). So how did you do it, and how
> do I persuade everyone else to do it?
>
I simply changed the encoding to Japanese-JIS. I forgot to do so in my first
message thus ??? instead of kanjis. Is the default encoding of your
newsreader Japanese?
> > ...
>
> Jidaigeki episodes on TV still have that standard scene near the end,
> where the hero hacks his way through a coupladozen minions before
> dispatching the arch-villain of the day. Admittedly there's no blood nor
> damage to those pretty costumes, though.
>
>
Howabout polished toenails in hospital garrage after 4 years of coma, or
katana carried along in aircraft cabin,
Louise Bremner
> "Louise Bremner" <dame_...@yahoo.com>, iletide flunu yazd‡
> news:1g7agm1.128prr4njqz9hN%dame_...@yahoo.com...
> > Haluk Skywalker <yokoo...@spam.net> wrote:
> >
> > > Sucked pretty damn bad. Only this sentence I found very impressive:
> > >
> > > $B$U$/$7$e$&$H8@$&$N$O$1$C$7$F$^$C$9$0$NF;$G$O$J$$!# (B
> >
> > Drat it--how did you do that? Most of the Japanese in posts I'm seeing
> > after "upgrading" has appeared as ??????, even from people I'd assume
> > have figgered out how to prevent it from getting mangled. Your first
> > attempt was also like that but this one was fine (even though you don't
> > have a "charset=?????" in your headers). So how did you do it, and how
> > do I persuade everyone else to do it?
> >
>
> I simply changed the encoding to Japanese-JIS. I forgot to do so in my first
> message thus ??? instead of kanjis. Is the default encoding of your
> newsreader Japanese?
Nope--it can't handle Japanese at all. But kanjiberrish like that above
used to come through intact, so I could convert it in a Japanese text
editor. Howsumdever, ever since I upgraded, most of the Japanese text
comes through as question marks, except for one or two messages like
yours. This confuses me further--I could understand if all of the
Japanese is stripped out somewhere along the path, but only most of it?
> > Jidaigeki episodes on TV still have that standard scene near the end,
> > where the hero hacks his way through a coupladozen minions before
> > dispatching the arch-villain of the day. Admittedly there's no blood nor
> > damage to those pretty costumes, though.
> >
> Howabout polished toenails in hospital garrage after 4 years of coma, or
> katana carried along in aircraft cabin,
hehehehe.... Artistic license?
Jean-Marc Desperrier
> Haluk Skywalker <yokoo...@spam.net> wrote:
>>I simply changed the encoding to Japanese-JIS. I forgot to do so in my first
>>message thus ??? instead of kanjis. Is the default encoding of your
>>newsreader Japanese?
You need to change in the option for sent messages, the raw text
parameters, so that OE uses the MIME format.
This will :
- prevent OE from automatically replacing japanese with '?' if you
forget to change the format before sending the message. It will display
a warning instead.
- add a MIME header to your message that warns they are in ISO-2022-JP,
so that they will automatically correctly displayed by modern software.
> [...] Howsumdever, ever since I upgraded, most of the Japanese text
> comes through as question marks, except for one or two messages like
> yours. This confuses me further--I could understand if all of the
> Japanese is stripped out somewhere along the path, but only most of it?
Because the newer version of MacSoup can handle multiple encoding as
input, but can't display something different of the standard european
alphabet, latin-1.
So when it receives a message, it identifies what it it, and converts it
to the latin-1 before displaying, replacing everything that can not be
represented in latin-1 by '?'.
When the mesage is missing the correct header for identification like
Haluk's was, MacSoup don't know it should convert, so displays it raw.
And then your external program can do the conversion.
Submit the problem to the MacSoup author, and ask him to ask a mode to
force the display of the message as "raw" without conversion to avoid
this. (Free)Agent for exemple has an option like this.
Or stay with the old 2.4.6 version.
Louise Bremner
> > [...] Howsumdever, ever since I upgraded, most of the Japanese text
> > comes through as question marks, except for one or two messages like
> > yours. This confuses me further--I could understand if all of the
> > Japanese is stripped out somewhere along the path, but only most of it?
>
> Because the newer version of MacSoup can handle multiple encoding as
> input, but can't display something different of the standard european
> alphabet, latin-1.
Aha.
> So when it receives a message, it identifies what it it, and converts it
> to the latin-1 before displaying, replacing everything that can not be
> represented in latin-1 by '?'.
That doesn't explain how another pair of messages were displayed--the
first was posted by someone who has set up OE correctly for Japanese,
but all the Japanese appeared as ??????. The second was a quote of the
first message, by someone who does not use two-byte languages (and who
said that he'd previously copied some Arabic text and been told it
appeared as ????), but that appeared as kanjibberish that I could
convert.
>
> When the mesage is missing the correct header for identification like
> Haluk's was, MacSoup don't know it should convert, so displays it raw.
> And then your external program can do the conversion.
Um.... Haluk posted two messages. The first (entitled "Kill Bill" and
dated: Thu, 8 Jan 2004 23:07:30 +0200) presumably was without the
correct header and I saw it as ????. The second (the one at the top of
this thread, dated: Thu, 8 Jan 2004 23:08:51 +0200) has kanjibberish
that I can convert. Trouble is, I can't see anything else in the headers
that's significantly different.
>
> Submit the problem to the MacSoup author, and ask him to ask a mode to
> force the display of the message as "raw" without conversion to avoid
> this.
He keeps promising full two-byte support in some future version, but I
have my doubts that will ever happen.
> (Free)Agent for exemple has an option like this.
> Or stay with the old 2.4.6 version.
Can't--the database has already been converted (and we're trying to drop
all the OS9 applications too).
Maybe I need to go through the tedious job of checking out newsreaders
again (none of them have all the features I like, but MacSOUP comes
closest).
Dan Rempel
Depending on what you need, Thunderbird might be worth looking at;
somewhat buggy, but free, and gets Japanese encoding mostly right.
Dan
Jean-Marc Desperrier
>>to the latin-1 before displaying, replacing everything that can not be
>>represented in latin-1 by '?'.
>
> That doesn't explain how another pair of messages were displayed
I did explain that just after.
Read my message carefully, do not read what you think I wrote :-).
>>When the mesage is missing the correct header for identification like
>>Haluk's was, MacSoup don't know it should convert, so displays it raw.
>>And then your external program can do the conversion.
>
> Um.... Haluk posted two messages. The first (entitled "Kill Bill" and
> dated: Thu, 8 Jan 2004 23:07:30 +0200) presumably was without the
> correct header and I saw it as ????.
OK, I will explain more carefully, and taking into acount the case of
badly sent messages like this one.
That makes three cases :
1 - OE without correct header and wrong encoding selected before
sending :
This is the case of Haluk's first message.
In that situation, OE convert the japanese to '?' before sending.
Nobody on earth will see anything else than '?', because '?' is actually
what has been sent, the japanese never got out of Haluk's computer, only
the '?' were sent on the network.
You see the '?' just like anybody else, because that's all there *is* in
the message.
2 - OE without correct header and correct encoding selected before
sending :
This is the case of Haluk's second message, the one at top of this
thread. Nothing in the header is different from first case.
In that situation, OE send the japanese correctly, but does not put the
header, so the software has no elements to guess what encoding it is.
In that case, MacSoup assumes it is ISO-8859-1, assumes it can display
it without changing anything and display ESC[BrandcomcharsESC[J.
Then your external programm detects that this looks like japanese and
converts it for display.
You see the japanese.
Other people can see the japanese, but will have in many case to
manually select japanese encoding, because there's no information in the
header that the message is in japanese.
3 - OE with correct header and correct encoding selected :
This is not the case of any of Haluk's message, but some other people
have this correctly configured.
In that situation, OE/some other software send the japanese correctly,
and puts the header, so receiving software can know what encoding it is.
In that case, MacSoup knows it's japanese, decides it can't display and
converts every japanese string to '?'.
Your external programm can't do nothing, because all it sees is '?'.
You can't see the japanese.
Other people can see the japanese, without any manipulations.
This is the correct situation and correct way to send messages.
If your setting can not handle it, it is bad.
>>Submit the problem to the MacSoup author, and ask him to ask a mode to
>>force the display of the message as "raw" without conversion to avoid
>>this.
>
> He keeps promising full two-byte support in some future version, but I
> have my doubts that will ever happen.
"raw" display is much, much easier to implement.
This is not a difficult feature, I will send him a message suggesting
that, and explaining the rationals.
Louise Bremner
> Louise Bremner wrote:
> > Jean-Marc Desperrier <jmd...@alussinan.org> wrote:
> >>So when it receives a message, it identifies what it it, and converts it
> >>to the latin-1 before displaying, replacing everything that can not be
> >>represented in latin-1 by '?'.
> >
> > That doesn't explain how another pair of messages were displayed
>
> I did explain that just after.
> Read my message carefully, do not read what you think I wrote :-).
<respectful snippage>
Brain hurts.... But I think I understand now--thanks. I'd assumed it was
simply one yes/no selection, whereas in fact there are two.
> >>Submit the problem to the MacSoup author, and ask him to ask a mode to
> >>force the display of the message as "raw" without conversion to avoid
> >>this.
> >
> > He keeps promising full two-byte support in some future version, but I
> > have my doubts that will ever happen.
>
> "raw" display is much, much easier to implement.
> This is not a difficult feature, I will send him a message suggesting
> that, and explaining the rationals.
Yes. Thanks.