English teaching job questions
LRW
the occasional comments of disgust Westerners living in Japan feel
when it's assumed they must be teaching English. I can imagine the
frustration.
However, personally, I WANT to teach English in Japan. (go fig) I'm
curious about what it would take to do so.
I've an English (and theatre) BA and am working on my MFA. However, I
have no real skill at speaking/reading Japanese yet.
How much of a working knowledge of Japanese would one be expected to
have?
I would assume a conversational fluency at least, but I think about a
couple of non-American native college math instructors I had who I
couldn't understand a word of. (Or perhaps it was the math I couldn't
understand....)
And what are the chances that the English I taught could be at a
University level, or corporate? I really have less than no interest
teaching at a highschool (or equivalent) or lower. (4 years working
toward BSE's convinced me there's no way I'm stepping back into a
school containing people younger than 17. Ergo the BA's.)
Thanks for any comments!
Liam
druid -at-celticbear-dot-com
LRW
From: tenacious_s (kaz...@aol.com)
Subject: Want to live and teach in Japan, but have a ton of questions.
That'll probably answer my questions, so, I'll just go read that
thread 1st. Sorry to waste electrons and your time!
=)
Liam
mr.sumo snr.
news:3a1d1813.0310...@posting.google.com...
Just that one thread? Please tell us you've Google Groups advanced search
for threads - you should find over 1000 posts.
"conversational fluency" in Japanese is rarely required to teach here -
after all where are you going to use it? Surely you didn't imagine in the
classroom? That can get you canned in a lot of schools here. If you're
talking about the local pub, eating establishments, on dates out with locals
then it can be a definite advantage.
To teach at university or junior college level some sort of expertise in
English language instruction may be required. A relevant Master's
qualification minus experience or else a non-relevant graduate qualification
plus experience. University jobs are a cut above almost every other teaching
job other than the self-employed school owners. You might have better luck
at an adult education college or else 'compromise' with a JET position or a
job at a chain school. Then again if you want to aim higher then do so -
I've met a lot of university English teachers who couldn't recognize a
complex sentence with a flashlight and a grammar dictionary - you might get
lucky.
--
jonathan
--
"Never give a diphthong to ducks"
LRW
> Just that one thread? Please tell us you've Google Groups advanced search
> for threads - you should find over 1000 posts.
Well uh, no. Before I so thoughtlessly posted, I only did a scan of
current group threads and simply didn't see any that seemed relevant.
Then after posting I started to browse more leisurely and came upon
the thread.
See, searching actively would have been the intelligent thing to do.
=)
> "conversational fluency" in Japanese is rarely required to teach here -
> after all where are you going to use it? Surely you didn't imagine in the
> classroom? That can get you canned in a lot of schools here. If you're
Really? I can't imagine a foreign language class with a teacher that
couldn't speak the native language. I have 3 semesters of German in
college, and I think I did adequately well, and my instructor while a
German native spoke pretty clear English.
Do they, in Japan, tend to follow complete emersion style of language
instruction? I can't even really begin to fathom explaining English
conjugation without being able to explain all the exceptions and
irregularities. How can you really get that across without being able
to discuss it in the students' native language?
> job at a chain school. Then again if you want to aim higher then do so -
> I've met a lot of university English teachers who couldn't recognize a
> complex sentence with a flashlight and a grammar dictionary - you might get
> lucky.
Browsing the 'Net, I'm not finding too many good things about the
chain schools. (I still haven't quite figured out if NOVA is a chain
school or simply a union.) When the time comes for us to really focus
on making moving a goal, I'm certainly going to set my sights on
University. Strunk and White are friends of mine. ;)
Thanks for the feedback!
Liam
Dave Fossett
> Do they, in Japan, tend to follow complete emersion style of language
> instruction? I can't even really begin to fathom explaining English
> conjugation without being able to explain all the exceptions and
> irregularities. How can you really get that across without being able
> to discuss it in the students' native language?
As Mr Sumo mentioned, it seems to be the belief that English teachers should
not speak Japanese in the classroom. I never understood the logic behind
that either.
> Browsing the 'Net, I'm not finding too many good things about the
> chain schools. (I still haven't quite figured out if NOVA is a chain
> school or simply a union.) When the time comes for us to really focus
> on making moving a goal, I'm certainly going to set my sights on
> University. Strunk and White are friends of mine. ;)
Nova is a chain school, along with Geos, Aeon, ECC, Shane, and others.
--
Dave Fossett
Saitama, Japan
Ryan Ginstrom
"Dave Fossett" <re...@via.newsgroup> wrote in message
news:ptCnb.1574$l63....@news1.dion.ne.jp...
> As Mr Sumo mentioned, it seems to be the belief that English teachers
should
> not speak Japanese in the classroom. I never understood the logic behind
> that either.
It's because it's 英会話, not 英語. You can rest assured that all the 英語
classes will be taught entirely in Japanese, with precious little actual
English heard.
--
Regards,
Ryan Ginstrom
Brett Robson
When I was an ALT the teacher I worked with wrote a simple English sentence on
the board then over a 50 min class filled the board with Japanese. I went back
to the teachers room to get my camera but it was gone before I got back.
.
----
"No country hides itself behind the paper screen of cultural elitism like Japan,
which, considering they've bought their entire civilisation from other people's
hand-me-downs, is a bit of a liberty."
Ken Yasumoto-Nicolson
>
> not speak Japanese in the classroom. I never understood the logic behind
> that either.
What is the supposed reason for this? Is there studies that show any
sort of academic benefit from it?
I can understand a JET/whatever going to a primary school once a term
and doing an hour-long performing monkey act in 100% English, and also
high schools getting a once-per-week or so English-only additional
class (I used to get the similar with a French trainee teacher when I
was a sprog), but for a primary source of teaching, especially for
beginner to intermediate level, being unable to explain grammar points
(from what I've seen, they would have problems doing it in English
anyway) must really be damn near impossible.
I know when I got my J lessons, the teacher was 80% fluent in English,
but she sure had studied hard on the E required to explain grammar
points, and without them I'd have been asking for my money back!
However, I'm sure the true answer is that Nova et al are in the
entertainment, not education, business, and young gaigins are 10 a
penny, so why bother trying to actually set academic standards when
there's already plenty of people willing to see the speaking gaigin
show.
What do our self-employed English teachers do? What standards do you
lot set?
Ken
Drew Hamilton
>"Dave Fossett" <re...@via.newsgroup> wrote in message
>news:<ptCnb.1574$l63....@news1.dion.ne.jp>...
>>
>> As Mr Sumo mentioned, it seems to be the belief that English teachers should
>> not speak Japanese in the classroom. I never understood the logic behind
>> that either.
>
>What is the supposed reason for this? Is there studies that show any
>sort of academic benefit from it?
Well, that's how they taught me French.. Difference was that they started
when I was 5 years old and they did it all day long, not just an hour at
a time. I don't know how well that method would work on adults, particularly
if you only did it for an hour at a time...
- awh
mr.sumo snr.
news:ptCnb.1574$l63....@news1.dion.ne.jp...
>
> > Do they, in Japan, tend to follow complete emersion style of language
> > instruction? I can't even really begin to fathom explaining English
> > conjugation without being able to explain all the exceptions and
> > irregularities. How can you really get that across without being able
> > to discuss it in the students' native language?
>
> As Mr Sumo mentioned, it seems to be the belief that English teachers
should
> not speak Japanese in the classroom. I never understood the logic behind
> that either.
>
A postgraduate qualification in English language instruction would make the
logic clearer. I'm not trying to sound like an academic snob - but the
English-only notion is rammed home pretty hard on the CELTA/DELTA and MA in
TESOL/TEFL courses - well it was ten years ago anyway.
I must admit to 'cheating' quite often in my classes - especially when it
comes to using 'katakana' pronunciation. But at my junior college class it's
English-only and I deduct marks if students speak excessive amounts of
Japanese - even to each other.
--
jonathan
--
"Never give a gun to ducks"
Chris Kern
following:
>Do they, in Japan, tend to follow complete emersion style of language
>instruction? I can't even really begin to fathom explaining English
>conjugation without being able to explain all the exceptions and
>irregularities. How can you really get that across without being able
>to discuss it in the students' native language?
You will not get a job that involves teaching grammar to students,
unfortunately. You seem to be talking about becoming an actual
English teacher rather than just getting one of the "gaijin jobs" in
the English conversation schools or the JET program. This is quite
difficult to do -- I've never heard of anyone doing it (would probably
require a degree from a Japanese college).
Whoops, missed this in your original post:
>And what are the chances that the English I taught could be at a
>University level,
0.
>or corporate?
Not sure about this -- I don't know what kind of corporate English
jobs are available.
-Chris
mr.sumo snr.
news:0nfvpvs39q8llgt44...@4ax.com...
> On 28 Oct 2003 14:24:22 -0800, de...@celticbear.com (LRW) posted the
> following:
>
> >Do they, in Japan, tend to follow complete emersion style of language
> >instruction? I can't even really begin to fathom explaining English
> >conjugation without being able to explain all the exceptions and
> >irregularities. How can you really get that across without being able
> >to discuss it in the students' native language?
>
> You will not get a job that involves teaching grammar to students,
> unfortunately. You seem to be talking about becoming an actual
> English teacher rather than just getting one of the "gaijin jobs" in
> the English conversation schools or the JET program. This is quite
> difficult to do -- I've never heard of anyone doing it (would probably
> require a degree from a Japanese college).
>
In fact the predessecor at my first school in Japan did just this. He'd
only been in the country for four years but managed to pass level one of the
JLPT. Unlike many who manage this in such a short space of time he also
apparently spoke near perfect Japanese in the local dialect. I can't count
the number of times I've heard locals who knew him tell me how it freaked
them out to listen to someone talking perfect Japanese and yet NOT have a
Japanese face.
He applied for a job as an English teacher in a school somewhere near Tokyo
and was accepted upon condition that his boss at the English school vouch as
to his proficiency in Japanese (since the guy was from Newport, South Wales
one could argue that there could have remained some questions about his
proficiency in the English language!). This was a job that would normally
have been filled by a Japanese person.
> Whoops, missed this in your original post:
> >And what are the chances that the English I taught could be at a
> >University level,
>
> 0.
>
> >or corporate?
>
> Not sure about this -- I don't know what kind of corporate English
> jobs are available.
>
For example, teaching cabin crew on a contract with the British Council.
You speak more than a word of Japanese in a class with that particular
organization and you'll be hauled up in front of the DoS in no time. Same
is true for Shane Schools in Chiba I believe - I've heard tales of teachers
been 'grassed up' by elementary school kids for saying "genki desu ka" in
class.
And from personal experience I've lost students (read paying customers) from
classes where it was perceived that I spoke too much Japanese during the
lesson. It's very tempting to use L1 in the classroom, especially when
explaining how to play a game, or to teach something that the students just
can't seem to grasp - such as the present perfect tense (I apologize for
calling it that since of course it is more a 'condition' than a tense but
whatever). If, however, you rely too much on this then it's probably a sign
that you're not adequately preparing your lessons - or pitching a topic that
is too high.
In the ESL classroom of course this is never an issue. When you have
students from several different countries it is never expected that the
instructor be able to speak every individual language. English teachers
here who have been asked by a student about studying at an English school in
North America, the UK or elsewhere have probably recommended they attend a
school with as few other Japanese students as possible - to make them use
their English all day long.
I don't think I ever had a student leave my school arguing that I spoke too
much English in class...though, as anyone who's met me can testify, speaking
too little English has never been my problem.
--
jonathan
--
"Never give a gun to ducks"
Bryan Parker
>On Wed, 29 Oct 2003 10:31:23 +0900, Ryan Ginstrom ...
>>
>>
>>"Dave Fossett" <re...@via.newsgroup> wrote in message
>>news:ptCnb.1574$l63....@news1.dion.ne.jp...
>>> As Mr Sumo mentioned, it seems to be the belief that English teachers
>>should
>>> not speak Japanese in the classroom. I never understood the logic behind
>>> that either.
>>
>>It's because it's 英会話, not 英語. You can rest assured that all
>>the 英語
>>classes will be taught entirely in Japanese, with precious little actual
>>English heard.
>>
>
>When I was an ALT the teacher I worked with wrote a simple English sentence on
>the board then over a 50 min class filled the board with Japanese.
Do you remember if that sentence looked anything
like the one above?
>I went back
>to the teachers room to get my camera but it was gone before I got back.
I say that you and I get our drink on next Friday
night, take a wild guess as to which teacher it
was that stole your camera, and go kick her
fuggin' arse!
Michael Cash
<re...@via.newsgroup> belched the alphabet and kept on going with:
>"LRW" <de...@celticbear.com> wrote:
>
>> Do they, in Japan, tend to follow complete emersion style of language
>> instruction? I can't even really begin to fathom explaining English
>> conjugation without being able to explain all the exceptions and
>> irregularities. How can you really get that across without being able
>> to discuss it in the students' native language?
>
>As Mr Sumo mentioned, it seems to be the belief that English teachers should
>not speak Japanese in the classroom. I never understood the logic behind
>that either.
Take your pick:
1. Foreigners can't speak Japanese anyway
2. It would hurt fragile Japanese egos to be upstaged (see #1)
3. They'd want more money
4. They'd be less appealing to certain students (see #1 and #2)
5. More likely to figure out they're getting fukked over
6. More likely to want to hang around and sully the gene pool
I'm sure you could think of more.
Michael Cash
belched the alphabet and kept on going with:
>On 28 Oct 2003 14:24:22 -0800, de...@celticbear.com (LRW) posted the
>following:
>
>>Do they, in Japan, tend to follow complete emersion style of language
>>instruction? I can't even really begin to fathom explaining English
>>conjugation without being able to explain all the exceptions and
>>irregularities. How can you really get that across without being able
>>to discuss it in the students' native language?
>
>You will not get a job that involves teaching grammar to students,
>unfortunately. You seem to be talking about becoming an actual
>English teacher rather than just getting one of the "gaijin jobs" in
>the English conversation schools or the JET program.
He does seem to be entirely clueless regarding the nature of the
beast, doesn't he?
Michael Cash
<puntspe...@yahoo.com> belched the alphabet and kept on going
with:
>>I went back
>>to the teachers room to get my camera but it was gone before I got back.
>
>I say that you and I get our drink on next Friday
>night, take a wild guess as to which teacher it
>was that stole your camera, and go kick her
>fuggin' arse!
>
You are such a retard. It was the room that was gone, not the camera.
cc
"Ken Yasumoto-Nicolson" <ken_ni...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > As Mr Sumo mentioned, it seems to be the belief that English teachers
should
> > not speak Japanese in the classroom. I never understood the logic behind
> > that either.
>
> What is the supposed reason for this? Is there studies that show any
> sort of academic benefit from it?
Tons...I don't remember the sources.
Learning languages is like learning to pilote a plane. The hours count. But
not the hours you spend your bum in a classroom, the hours your ears + brain
try to guess/understand something in the new language + the hours your spend
talking it count the more.
The rate of memorization varies a lot, from an average of 20% for written
stuff you read or copy, to an average 80% of stuff you thought yourself and
said to others. The more active, involved and creative you are in the
process, the more your remember.
People make much more effort to understand an explanation in the new
language, than to hear it directly translated. They forget less.
Learning something taught in a foreign language is very efficient. Teenagers
that do exchanges programs and attend the classes of general subjects (math,
geography, etc...) in the foreign language progress incredibly quickly, even
if they feel lost the first weeks.
Learning the language directly in that language also works. Except if your
personality can't adapt to the method of course.
The most efficient learning method in the world seems to be the heuristic
one : things are not explained to you, you guess them ! The teacher is here
to guide you. Unfortunately, that works in theory. Psychological reasons
make it difficult to apply to adults, material conditions also limit it.
Plus preparation time is huge (I take at least the triple of time to prepare
that sort of lesson).
>for a primary source of teaching, especially for
> beginner to intermediate level, being unable to explain grammar points
> must really be damn near impossible.
Explaining grammar points is not even the main concern. If reading a good
descriptive grammar book was enough to become fluent in a foreign language,
I'd know it... Ready to use grammar explanations in Japanese are avalaible
in any bookstore. Making the students understand each grammar point during
20 second is easy, making them use the structure in the next hour is
feasible. Like making them pronounce perfectly during a phonetic drill is
easy too.
The difficulty is to make them remember that the next day...Memory
limitation is one of the main obstacle to learn foreign languages.
Especially for adults.
Several solutions, or students are active and force themselves to hear/read,
write/speak, train their memory outside the classroom, or
teachers/instructors/robots make them do it in an eikaiwa box as many hours
as possible, or your wife talks to you all the time and kicks you in the
legs as long as you don't answer.
The second limitation is the lack of knowledge, of general culture, to
understand the different ways of thinking in the other language (but that
applies less for English as global communication language).
CC
cc
"mr.sumo snr." <mr_...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>I'm not trying to sound like an academic snob - but the
> English-only notion is rammed home pretty hard on the CELTA/DELTA and MA
in
> TESOL/TEFL courses - well it was ten years ago anyway.
Ten years ago, and in the 70's ? You can't count or what ?
I agree with you that a teacher that is not able to teach his/her language
to Martians without using their klingon should change of job.
But maybe your generation has too much banned L1, in reaction to past (I
hope) horrors.
> A postgraduate qualification in English language instruction would make
>the
> logic clearer.
Or trying to learn with such a method ?
I've learnt basic English mostly with direct methods, the only grammar
book I remember of was the blue Murphy (I feel natsukashi when I see it in
bookstores...maybe I should rebuy it). So the "logic" seems so obvious to
me. And my students rarely question the fact the lesson is done in the new
language, they try one or two lessons and find it natural. Only people in
their 70's and older can't adapt and need Japanese.
CC
Brett Robson
>
>On Thu, 30 Oct 2003 00:52:20 +0900, Bryan Parker
><puntspe...@yahoo.com> belched the alphabet and kept on going
>with:
>
>
>>>I went back
>>>to the teachers room to get my camera but it was gone before I got back.
>>
>>I say that you and I get our drink on next Friday
>>night, take a wild guess as to which teacher it
>>was that stole your camera, and go kick her
Bit of a drive but I'm up for it.
Your spelling has improved recently. Careful though, you might start coming out
with expressions like "Cor blimely guv, check the bristols on that Sheilla."
>>
>
>You are such a retard. It was the room that was gone, not the camera.
>
No it was the class. Probably didn't hear about 40 junior high 2nd years going
missed 4 years ago.
Brett Robson
I think a balance needs to be taken. When I first started learning yinyong I
couldn't understand why kore became kono, it's simple English has only one word
'this' which is both a noun and an adjective but it wasn't until a friend
explained it in English that I got it. Common Japanese mistakes such as "I am
orange juice" take a few seconds to explain in Japanese.
Prophet of the Way
LRW wrote:
> Browsing the 'Net, I'm not finding too many good things about the
> chain schools. (I still haven't quite figured out if NOVA is a chain
> school or simply a union.)
NOVA is a chain school. They advertise heavily on TV.
NOVA Union is a worker's union: http://www.novaunion.com/
(The text is hard to read. Small black font on a dark blue background.)
They have a links page: http://www.novaunion.com/zet/Links.html
> Thanks for the feedback!
Your welcome.
GHill18299
have no real skill at speaking/reading Japanese yet.
How much of a working knowledge of Japanese would one be expected to
have?
I would assume a conversational fluency at least
Liam,
You don't need any Japanese to teach English. Japanese is prohibited in the
classroom in most cases.
You need it for daily survival. How much depends on where you live.
And what are the chances that the English I taught could be at a
University level, or corporate?
With your degree, zero chance for university. That type of job requires at
least a master's degree in a related field like linguistics, plus refereed
publications.
For corporate work, your chances are 50-50. Depends on the recruiter. You
will likely need one to get your foot in the door.