Order of compass directions in different languages
Curt Fischer
"Ron Andrews" <r...@osk2.3web.ne.jp> wrote in message
news:7594b59c.03091...@posting.google.com...
[...]
[cross-posted to not only many newsgroups {crossposts removed} but also to
the Nihongo listserv]
Hey, if you know about both the Nihongo listserv and this newsgroup
(sci.lang.japan), do you know how to stop the automatic forwarding of
listserv emails to here?
Or, if you can't, do you know someone who can?
--
Curt Fischer
Michael Cash
belched the alphabet and kept on going with:
>"Curt Fischer" <cr...@po.cwru.edu> wrote in message news:<bk4cv6$oo8vv$1...@ID-187237.news.uni-berlin.de>...
>> "Ron Andrews" <r...@osk2.3web.ne.jp> wrote in message
>> news:7594b59c.03091...@posting.google.com...
>>
>> [...]
>>
>> [cross-posted to not only many newsgroups {crossposts removed} but also to
>> the Nihongo listserv]
>
>I cross-posted for a reason. All seem like relevant NGs for my
>question.
I'm related to lots of people that I have better sense than to invite
into the same room together. Crossposting can be a *very* bad idea
sometimes. The courteous thing to do is to post your message to the
various groups individually and then take it upon yourself to visit
the groups and check followups.
Paul Blay
> On 15 Sep 2003 16:41:20 -0700, r...@osk2.3web.ne.jp (Ron Andrews)
> belched the alphabet and kept on going with:
>
> >"Curt Fischer" <cr...@po.cwru.edu> wrote in message news:<bk4cv6$oo8vv$1...@ID-187237.news.uni-berlin.de>...
> >> "Ron Andrews" <r...@osk2.3web.ne.jp> wrote in message
> >> news:7594b59c.03091...@posting.google.com...
> >>
> >> [...]
> >>
> >> [cross-posted to not only many newsgroups {crossposts removed} but also to
> >> the Nihongo listserv]
> >
> >I cross-posted for a reason. All seem like relevant NGs for my
> >question.
>
> I'm related to lots of people that I have better sense than to invite
> into the same room together. Crossposting can be a *very* bad idea
> sometimes.
True.
> The courteous thing to do is to post your message to the
> various groups individually and then take it upon yourself to visit
> the groups and check followups.
Much as I hate to disagree with you, I'm going to. That is 100% the
wrong answer. In general 'multi-posting' is much more frowned upon
than 'cross-posting' for a number of technical and practical reasons.
A better answer would have been one or both of
a) Why post a Japanese language question to fj.life.in-japan anyway?
b) Cross-post to the lot but with follow-ups set to one group only
(and note that you're doing so).
People that are truely interested will re-insert their preferred group,
or follow to the chosen group. Only trolls and newbies will add the
lot back in and they can usually be safely ignored.
Michael Cash
<ra...@saotome.demon.co.uk> belched the alphabet and kept on going
with:
Were you hanging around on fjlij when some jackass thought that both
fj.life.in-japan and rec.martial.arts would be a good place to
crosspost a question about naginata? I have loathed crossposting ever
since.
Anthony J. Bryant
>
> Were you hanging around on fjlij when some jackass thought that both
> fj.life.in-japan and rec.martial.arts would be a good place to
> crosspost a question about naginata? I have loathed crossposting ever
> since.
Ah, yes. The "good old days." <G>
Tony
Paul Blay
> On Tue, 16 Sep 2003 16:35:53 +0100, "Paul Blay"
> <ra...@saotome.demon.co.uk> belched the alphabet and kept on going
> with:
>
> >wrong answer. In general 'multi-posting' is much more frowned upon
> >than 'cross-posting' for a number of technical and practical reasons.
>
I have never hung around fjlij. I may have flitted by once or twice, but my
understanding of fjlij mostly comes from the dark cloud it casts over slj.
> when some jackass thought that both
> fj.life.in-japan and rec.martial.arts would be a good place to
> crosspost a question about naginata?
No, although there have been more than a few memorable cross-posting
threads of doom in the sci.space.* newsgroups I follow.
There's a little bit of SW called NewsProxy which can filter posts based on
all sorts of criteria that I use for that very reason. In the unlikely event
that Forte Agent 1.8 can't filter out all posts cross-posted to more than
two groups (say) you might want to look into it.
> I have loathed crossposting ever
> since.
Nothing wrong with loathing crossposting, but multi-posting can be even
worse.
Suppose some masochist is following all of sci.lang.japan, alt.languages.japanese,
fj.sci.lang.japanese, fj.life.in-japan, AND japan.lang.japanese.
If somebody cross-posts to all of those groups in any halfway decent newsreader
it will be marked read in all groups after he reads it in /any/ group.
If the OP chooses to multi-post, on the other hand, he has the pleasure of seeing
it every time and seeing the same sort of follow-up posts in every group, as the
posters will be unaware of any answers already given in groups they don't follow.
So, by all means say 'Don't crosspost' but please don't start encouraging multi-
posts as a 'sensible alternative'.
Ken Kato
An interesting question you've got.
This is just my guess, and I haven't learned ethymology
seriously so I may be completely wrong.
AFAIK, the Chinese order follows the mithological "rank" of
the directions. East is the most important because, as you've
guessed, the sun rises in the east. The order of other
directions also have "reasons", but I don't know if the order
was decided after these reasons, or the reasons were made up
after the actual order (clockwise from east).
Also there is certain association between four directions and
four seasons.
I don't know why we use different order in Japan, but I'd guess
there's a logic kind of similar to the order in western languages
-- east, west (the opposite), south, north (the opposite)
Oh, and your guess about the importance of north is the other
way round actually -- direction of the head at death is north
because it is the most ominous direction.
Ron Andrews wrote on 14 Sep 2003 10:00:06 -0700
in article <7594b59c.03091...@posting.google.com>:
>Here's a language question I've been wondering about for a while that
>I'm hoping some among you might help me understand better.
>
>Does anyone know the etymology or history behind the traditional
>orders of compass directions stated in different languages?
>
>In English, German, possibly French, Italian, Spanish and others, the
>order is stated as "north, south, east, west". In Japanese, however,
>the order is "east, west, south, north" [東西南北 (tou, zai, nan, boku)].
>In Chinese, I believe it's different again, as "east, south, west,
>north" [東南西北 (dong, nan, xi, bei)]. Other than some guessing at the
>importance of east (rising sun) and north (direction of the head at
>death in Japan), I haven't come up with what sound like plausible
>reasons for these different orders. The orders used surely reflect
>other characteristics of the cultures involved, but what are they? One
>Japanese fellow I asked said he thought it was because in Japanese
>it's just easier to say it that way. I'm thinking it's got to be
>deeper than that.
>
>I've scoured the Net and looked through a few language books I have
>but have found nothing yet. Also, so far I've posted this question to
>the four NGs above as well as to the SWET (Japan-based Society of
>Writers, Editors and Translators) and Nihongo mailing lists, but if
>anyone can suggest other newsgroups, mailing lists, etc., that would
>be very helpful.
>
>So why are there different ways of saying the order of these
>directions in different languages?
>
>Many thanks for any help with this.
>
>Ron in Nara
--
Ken Kato (kato....@cij.co.jp)
Just Testing
> Does anyone know the etymology or history behind the traditional
> orders of compass directions stated in different languages?
Interesting question! I imagine that the Japanese ordering comes from
the Chinese one, which actually is dong-xi-nan-bei (or at least that's
how we learned it -- where did you find the dong nan xi bei
ordering?). As for the reasoning, my speculations would be no better
than yours, and even if you did manage to unearth some ancient text
the purported to explain the reasoning, it would probably just be an
after-the-fact attempt to give meaning to a custom that was already
prevalent. But it's fun to think about!
VT
Ross Klatte
>Date: 2003-09-18 04:04 Eastern Daylight Time
>Message-id: <bkbom2$c2a$1...@hawaii.ykhm.cij.co.jp>
>
>BTW, several articles I found say that north-
>east-south-west order is used in the U.S.
>Any idea about this?
I have an idea that those articles are either wrong or
are referring to some special context.
The paired version is always better: north and south,
east and west, up and down, in and out, etc.
Ross
Roebuck, South Carolina
http://community.webshots.com/user/ross_klatte
http://www.ncplenty.org/businessplan.pdf
It is 4 miles from Denmark to Finland, and 4 miles
from Denmark to Sweden, but it is 9 miles from
Denmark to Norway.
Sampo
>>Here's some example of the precedence.
>>南船北馬(boat in the south, horse in the north)
「東奔西走」などは東優位を示していると言えそうですね。
--
::===========================================================
:: ■■さんぽ■■ <mue...@csc.jp>
:: PGP fingerprint: 42FC 4F53 2FB6 5810 1B1B 97A3 F166 2DE7
::===========================================================
Bart Mathias
>...
> About the precedence of the south over the north, I guess the
> origin was China and we just imported that. Here's some example of
> the precedence.
> [minami sasu kuruma: shinansha](south-pointing car)
> a compass-on-the-car.
I wonder what kind of cars they had in ancient China.
> ... [kitamakura](north pillow) was Buddha's position at his death
> and therefore thought it was good for the dead.
> ...
How do we know how Buddha's corpse was laid out? Is this based on
Indian writings?
In any event, the Chinese considered north the "back" direction long
before Buddha came along.
Sorry about sending this to five groups, but I can't figure out which
one Junn Ohta, to whom I am responding, posted from.
Bart Mathias
Junn Ohta
mat...@hawaii.eduさんは書きました。
> I wonder what kind of cars they had in ancient China.
Chariot or cargo trailer type of cars they had.
> How do we know how Buddha's corpse was laid out? Is this based on
> Indian writings?
Nirvana Sutra and some other sutras refer to it.
Buddha's corpse was laid with his head to the north,
his right side down, hence his head directed west.
> In any event, the Chinese considered north the "back" direction long
> before Buddha came along.
I agree...
--
太田純(Junn Ohta) (株)リコー/新横浜事業所
oh...@sdg.mdd.ricoh.co.jp
bes...@lycos.jp
> In English, German, possibly French, Italian, Spanish and others, the
> order is stated as "north, south, east, west". In Japanese, however,
> the order is "east, west, south, north" [東西南北 (tou, zai, nan, boku)].
> In Chinese, I believe it's different again, as "east, south, west,
> north" [東南西北 (dong, nan, xi, bei)]. Other than some guessing at the
Cultures in far east asia were affected of IN-YOH [陰陽] thought.
East is YOH (sunrise), west is IN (sunset).
South is YOH (hot), north is IN (cold).
In the thought, maybe east is more YOH than south. That is, east is
primary YHO in compass directions. North is primary IN similarly. And
order of middle parts became by chance,
Japan: east west south north
YOH(primary)-IN(opposite of east)-YOH(secondary)-IN(opposite of
south).
China: east south west north
YOH(primary)-YOH(secondary)-IN(secondary)-IN(primary)
http://www.asamiryo.jp/rekisi12.html (wrote in japanese)
This page has explained about chinese order. See the last section of
it.
Does someone know about compass directions order in another country in
far east asia? For example Korea, Vietnam. I guess east is first in
almost all.
#Sorry for my poor english.
--
ISHIKAWA