Japan and Germany
masayuki yoshida
<<Germany has now regained the trust of her neighbours while Japan continues to invite
suspicion from Asia.
In 1987, Japan shamelessly moved their war criminals' momorials (sic) into Yasukuni
Shinto shrine to be worshipped as national heros (sic). In July 1996, the Japanese Prime
Minister Ryutaro Hashimoto broke a decade long taboo by visiting shrine honoring these
war criminals. The Japanese ruling Liberal Democratic party and right wingers even
incorporated the worship as the national policy that the cabinet ministers should
officially pay tribute to the shrine.
The Japanese constitution bans "land, sea and air forces, as well as other war
potential." Yet, because of the wonders of constitutional interpretation and encouraged
by United State, Japan has now built its self-defense forces into one of the most
powerful armies in Asia, supported by the equivalent of US $50 billion military budget,
second or third largest in the world only after that of the United States, and probably
Russia. From 1985 to 1994 Japan's military spending increased 58 % as Europe and US
decreased theirs. For example, Germany decreased their military spending by 24.7 %. In
contrast, Japanese military spending in 1994 was 44.6 billions in exceess (sic) of 61.1
% compared to China's spending of only 27.68 billions. Japan was the number 1 in the
world spent $76,500 per military personnel which was 4.4% more than U.S.
German leaders consistantly (sic) apologize for their past aggression in the clearest
possible terms. Former Chancellor Willy Brandt once even fell to his knees at the site
of the Warsaw Ghetto in the tribute with the utmost sincerity to those who died there at
the Nazi hands.
In Germany, it is a Crime to utter what is called "the Auschwitz lie" - denial of the
death camps. For more than five decades, the Japanese have danced and dodged around the
edges of their war Crimes and atrocities.
Germany has made generous acts of atonement and has paid 88 billions Mark in
compensation and reparations to Jewish Holocaust victums (sic) and will spend another 20
billions Mark by 2005. Yet, Japan has virtually paid nothing and continues to maintain
an innocence that contracts vividly with Germany's profound self-examination.
Also in contrast, the United States has compensated Japanese held in WWII internment
camps with $20,000 each. Similar compensation was also given to the Candian (sic)
Japanese by the Canadian government few years ago.
The constant reminders of the atrocities of Germany's Nazi regime is now recognized as a
major preventive measure against the revival of Nazism in Germany. The annual
commemoration of the victims of Hiroshima provides a strong basis for the resistance to
the dangerous of nuclear wars. To bring attention to the Ugliest War Crimes against
Humanity in 20th century committed by Japan can prevent the current resurgence of
Militarism in Japan and anywhere in the world as well.
If Japan wants to play a larger political role in the World or to secure a permanent
seat on the UN Security Concil (sic), Japan MUST settle its past. Simply adopting a "No
War Resolution" after half century denial without a formal sincere apology to the
victims during the War, Japan missed again a golden opportunity to reconcil (sic) with
its neighbours. Denial will not make the past go away. Only by facing the truth of
history with courage as Germany, can Japan bring the wounds of war to a final closure.
Until this is done, Japan remains as a country without SOUL.>>
Although I don't agree with all claim of the above simple comparison of Japan and
Germany, but it would be interesting to discuss the reason why the two nations seemingly
show quite different attitudes toward their responsibility for what they did in their
modern war times.
Masayuki
Eric Takabayashi
Which parts do you agree or disagree with, or which facts such as actual acts or data do
you dispute, and could you tell us why?
> but it would be interesting to discuss the reason why the two nations seemingly
> show quite different attitudes toward their responsibility for what they did in their
> modern war times.
What do you believe, aside from your war is a political matter, and is not to be viewed
from morality, position? Aside from any alleged lack of interest on your part to admit to
Japanese wrongdoing, just why do you normally try to avoid such issues?
--
"This is the best book I've ever read! Even though I've only read one, it is by far the
best in the world."
- A 12-year old reader from California, CA USA
Rindler Sigurd
to be viewed
> from morality, position? Aside from any alleged lack of interest on your
part to admit to
> Japanese wrongdoing, just why do you normally try to avoid such issues?
>
I think it depends on Masayuki's age.The Japanese school system is to blame
for the high number of Japanese "nazis" in our society. The teachers grew up
during this military-dominated era, and they were given lots of power by the
ministry of education... whose business was and is still run by the old boys
network.Remember education minister Fujio, who had to be fired by PM
Takeshita?
In Germany (similarly in Austria) the situation was quite different since
the conservative's (CDU = LDP) power was broken by the socialists (SPD), and
this fact was reflected in education. The old teachers had no other choice
to either hide their pre-war attitudes, retire, or get fired if they didn't
fall in line. Many of them had some "adjustment problems" and solved them by
clever timing their history lessons. Many of my generation (born just after
the war) will tell the same story. The history teachers spent too much time
with the Greeks and Romans, and when they reached the end of the first world
war, it was also the end of the schoolyear...
Our teachers didn't have to face embarrassing questions, and we had to get
our sources elsewhere. There was plenty of anti-nazi literature available.
Young Japanese don't care so much about this subject and neither do young
Germans who can't be made responsible for what their fathers and
grandfathers did. That's at least how I see it.
All the Japanese need to do (if they have the will) is to vote all the LDP
nazis out and vote those in who are not pre-war relics. It's easier for them
to sincerely apologize and mend the wounds of the past.Time will tell
whether this works for the better.
______________________________________________________________________
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John W.
>
> Although I don't agree with all claim of the above simple comparison of Japan and
> Germany, but it would be interesting to discuss the reason why the two nations seemingly
> show quite different attitudes toward their responsibility for what they did in their
> modern war times.
>
John W.
John W.
> I think it depends on Masayuki's age.The Japanese school system is to blame
> for the high number of Japanese "nazis" in our society.
One other big reality is that there were no 'Jews' or the equivalent
in Asia. The Jewish population of the world quite rightly didn't let
anyone forget the sufferings of Europe. In Asia there simply hasn't
been that level of public, international outcry until relatively
recently, and even the press that exists isn't as organized or
aggressive as in Europe. How many Chinese citizens groups were created
in the post-war years to hunt down and punish Japanese war criminals?
Very few. For one thing the cold war in Asia was very different than
in Europe; China was on the other side of the fence, so to speak, and
Korea in all honesty had it's own issues to contend with for several
decades. It is only recently that many of the atrocities have 'come to
light' (most were known, but for varying reasons were not made
'important' until recently). So while I agree that Japanese education
hasn't been as open as it could, the rest of the world has hardly been
pressuring Japan to be more forthcoming.
John W.
Rindler Sigurd
"John W." <worth...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:73fde4f0.03080...@posting.google.com...
> "Rindler Sigurd" <srin...@da2.so-net.ne.jp> wrote in message
news:<3f32d5ac$1...@news.uncensored-news.com>...
>
> > I think it depends on Masayuki's age.The Japanese school system is to
blame
> > for the high number of Japanese "nazis" in our society.
>
> One other big reality is that there were no 'Jews' or the equivalent
> in Asia. The Jewish population of the world quite rightly didn't let
> anyone forget the sufferings of Europe.
Yes, I didn't think of mentioning the Jews. Certainly, there was some
pressure, but the attitude of the people in power who changed everything for
the better was something which had little to do with it. Willy Brandt was a
pacifist who was living in Sweden during the years of war (at least a long
time as I have read). Many of the bad guys where hiding behind the magical
"C" (stands for Christian) in the CDU and CSU (the mayor political
conservative parties). We'll have to wait until the remaining bad guys are
finally extinct, something that won't last long given their age. But at the
same time it is necessary to clamp down on their sympathizers without any
mercy in order to prevent such things from happening again.
Silvio Franke
Rindler Sigurd schrieb:
>
> > > I think it depends on Masayuki's age.The Japanese school system is to
> blame
> > > for the high number of Japanese "nazis" in our society.
> >
> > One other big reality is that there were no 'Jews' or the equivalent
> > in Asia. The Jewish population of the world quite rightly didn't let
> > anyone forget the sufferings of Europe.
>
> Yes, I didn't think of mentioning the Jews. Certainly, there was some
> pressure, but the attitude of the people in power who changed everything for
> the better was something which had little to do with it. Willy Brandt was a
> pacifist who was living in Sweden during the years of war (at least a long
> time as I have read). Many of the bad guys where hiding behind the magical
> "C" (stands for Christian) in the CDU and CSU (the mayor political
> conservative parties). We'll have to wait until the remaining bad guys are
> finally extinct, something that won't last long given their age. But at the
> same time it is necessary to clamp down on their sympathizers without any
> mercy in order to prevent such things from happening again.
Well, the CDU/CSU were the ruling parties in Germany nearly all the time
after WWII. The SPD was only at the power in the 1970s and now from
1994 on. To get the power in the 1970s they had a coallition with the
FDP, the former coallition partner of the CDU/CSU. They didn't break the
power of the CDU/CSU. Helmut Kohl, the German Chancelor during the 80s
and 90s was from the CDU/CSU.
The laws against Nazis and some trials happened before Willy Brandt,
too. The WWII and the German war crimes were topics in German schools
before Willy Brandt, too. In Nordrhein-Westphalen, one of he biggest
federal states in Germany, from 1946-1965 158 trials were held against
Nazis and war criminals.
And it is clear, that the German policy was dominated for decades by the
CDU/CSU. So the constant shift towards democracy and the western world
is
a merit of all major German parties. Of course Willy Brandt did a lot
for
Germany and his gesture in Warsaw was unique. But this was a gesture
from
Willy Brandt, not from the SPD. I doubt, that a lot of SPD- and of
course
CDU/CSU-poititians would have done that, too.
And the bad guys did not hide behind the CDU/CSU, some of them were
mebers, quite officially. Of course a
conservative democratic party like the CDU/CSU was more attractive to
some nationalists and right wingers, than the socialist SPD. But we have
and allways had some real right wing parties, which were far more
interesting for the so called "bad guys". No doubt, of course not all
members of the CDU/CSU were saints and some were or even are criminals,
but htis is and was not different in the SPD.
Silvio
-------------------------------------------------
Sometimes I feel the strong urge to march east...
bokuwaotakudesu
I would say from all that I read that though the Japanese didn't have
the "Mass Production" mentality to murder, some of the individual
atrocities they committed were just as bad as the Nazis and some of them
even worse <ManChuKuo (sorry if misspelled) comes to mind with the
"medical experiments" they conducted on the Manchurians.>
The Japanese have never really admitted they did anything wrong and I've
seen posts stating that the "Rape of Nanj/king was a perfectly fine
thingh since it ocurrered in the context of a war (of aggression, mind
you) and that since some women and children defended themselves they
derserved to die. I am totally infatuated with Japan but this stuff
drives me crazy. Also don't forget the comlplete denial of "Comfort
Women". Getting on the US about the bomb (or the camps) and conviently
forgetting about your on <*worse*> actions is disgusting. I can't stand
all this crap, but I still love Japan <as one could love a nation>. They
also never compensated the American slaves they used. Their racist
<maybe more properly "xenophobic"> attitude is enough to drive any
non-KKK member bonkers sometimes *but they mean well*.
Also you CAN compare them in this sort of situation. How can anyone say
that they have handled it better than Germany? It does't hurt Japan's
case that they went after mostly "yellow" people and in effect mad the
Racist West able to "forget" about these crime against humanity. Have
the Japanese even decided they are human or are they still of better
breeding than us? Anyways this is long enough. These sort of things
really get my blood boiling. I would still Japan isn't evil in its
racism, but nowhere is perfect. Low crime and high stnadared of living
must be worth something.
--
"The power of [a] man...as soon as he aquires the title of master,
becomes abusive and unreasonable"
- Etienne de la Boetie "The Discourse on Voluntary Servitude"
Rindler Sigurd
> the "Mass Production" mentality to murder, some of the individual
> atrocities they committed were just as bad as the Nazis and some of them
> even worse <ManChuKuo (sorry if misspelled) comes to mind with the
> "medical experiments" they conducted on the Manchurians.>
I don't think one can grade it by "bad-worse-worst". The concentration camp
doctor (Dr. Mengele) conducted the most cruel and senseless experiments on
humans like testing the time a human body can resist ice water until
death... listed by gender, age, body weight and such.
Or tests by injecting various amounts of gasoline while precisely observing
the reactions by the victims and such.
Who knows what else had been done. A lot was never released in full for
public consumption...
Sigi
Kaz
>
> <<Germany has now regained the trust of her neighbours while Japan continues to invite
> suspicion from Asia.
The difference between two countries is, There are no more goddam
communist countries around Germany anymore while we still have such
dumb communist's countries like China and N. Korea taking the
advantages of all those stories about Japanese atrocities acted by IJA
for their communist's propaganda.
mtfe...@netscape.net
>> I would say from all that I read that though the Japanese didn't have
>> the "Mass Production" mentality to murder, some of the individual
>> atrocities they committed were just as bad as the Nazis and some of them
>> even worse <ManChuKuo (sorry if misspelled) comes to mind with the
>> "medical experiments" they conducted on the Manchurians.>
> I don't think one can grade it by "bad-worse-worst". The concentration camp
> doctor (Dr. Mengele) conducted the most cruel and senseless experiments on
> humans like testing the time a human body can resist ice water until
> death... listed by gender, age, body weight and such.
> Or tests by injecting various amounts of gasoline while precisely observing
> the reactions by the victims and such.
> Who knows what else had been done. A lot was never released in full for
> public consumption...
Right, the Japanese barbarity was more "run-of-the-mill"; the sort of
petty atrocities (putting aside the scale) that had been (and still is)
practiced from time immemorial. The German model of applying then-modern
industrial methodology, even when it demonstrably interfered with the war
effort, frightened people out of their apathy.
Mike
mtfe...@netscape.net
> "masayuki yoshida" <ys...@yahoo.co.jp> wrote in message news:<bgth84$s5pq1$1...@ID-201147.news.uni-berlin.de>...
>> <http://tinyurl.com/jac2> says:
>>
>> <<Germany has now regained the trust of her neighbours while Japan continues to invite
>> suspicion from Asia.
> The difference between two countries is, There are no more goddam
> communist countries around Germany anymore while we still have such
> dumb communist's countries like China and N. Korea taking the
Which "communist" countries surround Japan, Monkey?
China, land of the industrial conglomerate?
Really, Monkey, you shouldn't speak so poorly of your native land.
Mike
bokuwaotakudesu
'Tis too true that "I" cannot really compare Dr. Mengele to the -I don't
know how many Japanese- ;I just don't know enough. I wish someone would
of commented on the idea that "we"<in the West> don't care about this
because of the race/ethnicity of the people invovled. Again, sorry my
post was that of a raving madman but this sort of discusion will do it
to me. Also I would say that whatever happened in Manchukuo wasn't so
"run-of-the-mill" if only because of the length of time it was practiced
and the severity of it.
ありがとう！！！
Justin
mtfe...@netscape.net
> mtfe...@netscape.net wrote:
>> Right, the Japanese barbarity was more "run-of-the-mill"; the sort of
>> petty atrocities (putting aside the scale) that had been (and still is)
>> practiced from time immemorial. The German model of applying then-modern
>> industrial methodology, even when it demonstrably interfered with the war
>> effort, frightened people out of their apathy.
> well I am glad someone read my too-long post! Anyways on to your points:
> 'Tis too true that "I" cannot really compare Dr. Mengele to the -I don't
> know how many Japanese- ;I just don't know enough. I wish someone would
> of commented on the idea that "we"<in the West> don't care about this
> because of the race/ethnicity of the people invovled. Again, sorry my
Perhaps, but at the time, the people in "the West" didn't really care
about the Jews, either. Different times...
> post was that of a raving madman but this sort of discusion will do it
> to me. Also I would say that whatever happened in Manchukuo wasn't so
> "run-of-the-mill" if only because of the length of time it was practiced
> and the severity of it.
Hmm, you ought to read some of the older accounts of what people used to
do in warfare; in terms of %ages of populations, many far exceed Japanese
actions in China. And most people don't really bring up the German treatment
of Russian POWs (such as putting a couple hundred thousand of them behind
a wire fence, without jackets, in the Russian winter.) The focus is
usually on the camps.
Mike
John W.
became part of the 'enemy' has a strong effect on how much people
knew/believed or wanted to know/believe.
John W.
Rindler Sigurd
> do in warfare; in terms of %ages of populations, many far exceed Japanese
> actions in China. And most people don't really bring up the German
treatment
> of Russian POWs (such as putting a couple hundred thousand of them behind
> a wire fence, without jackets, in the Russian winter.) The focus is
> usually on the camps.
And the Germans and Japanese in Russian gulags working and dying by the
thousands in mines and at railway construction sites at arctic temperatures
with minimal clothing and inadequate food....
It's all inhumane, but still different compared to the infamous human
experiments. The strongest or the lucky ones survived.
mtfe...@netscape.net
>> Hmm, you ought to read some of the older accounts of what people used to
>> do in warfare; in terms of %ages of populations, many far exceed Japanese
>> actions in China. And most people don't really bring up the German
> treatment
>> of Russian POWs (such as putting a couple hundred thousand of them behind
>> a wire fence, without jackets, in the Russian winter.) The focus is
>> usually on the camps.
> And the Germans and Japanese in Russian gulags working and dying by the
> thousands in mines and at railway construction sites at arctic temperatures
> with minimal clothing and inadequate food....
Yep. Run-of-the-mill atrocities. You gotta be special to catch the attention
of modern human beings (I'd put a smiley there, but it's inappropriate.)
Mike
mtfe...@netscape.net
Partly, but I think it was more the fact that right after the war, China
became bogged down in its own civil war, and they didn't really have time
to point at the Japanese.
Mike
MatthewOutland
I think japanese militarists just have too much spare time on their hands
another fool
camps - fortunately the US government, realizing the impact
reparations would have on the rebuilding of the Japanese economy
agreed in treaty not to allow lawsuits by former prisoners of war.
Major Japanese companies (Mitsubishi being the one that comes to mind)
have consistently denied any wrong doing.
Japan has consistently claimed that the comfort women were willing
participants and refused to deal directly with the issue. I think the
reestablishment of an active civil defense force is not a bad idea -
after all, memories in this part of the world run deep. I wonder what
Japan`s neighbors would do if the US said "fine, we are pulling all
American military presence out of Japan, have a nice life" - it can
happen look at Puerto Rico and the impact to their economy closing the
military base there had. I wonder how long it would be before
Japanese women would be working as "willing" comfort women to Japan`s
former colonies?
A former Professor of mine suffers (or suffered it has been several
years since I last spoke with him and he was in failing health) from a
degenerative nerve condition aquired from years of malnutrition he
suffered at the hands of (in his exact words) "The Imperial Japanese
Army". He was 11 when he and his family were taken prisoner in
mainland China while working as Christian missionaries and shipped to
the Phillipines for interment. He got to watch his father beaten and
his sister sexually abused. He was finally liberated when he was 17
years old and immediatly signed up for the infantry to fight in the
Pacific. He has never received an apology or any compensation for
being held from the Japanese government. Strangely enough he went to
visit the former head of the camp where he was held when that man lay
dying and forgave him. He is a bigger man then I would have been.
Kevin Gowen
> Japan has never compensated the slave laborers it held in prison work
> camps - fortunately the US government, realizing the impact
> reparations would have on the rebuilding of the Japanese economy
> agreed in treaty not to allow lawsuits by former prisoners of war.
Against the Japanese government. They are free to sue Japanese companies.
> Major Japanese companies (Mitsubishi being the one that comes to mind)
> have consistently denied any wrong doing.
--
Kevin Gowen
"If it were before me today I would vote against it, because it doesn't
have environmental or labor standards in it."
- Sen. John Kerry, explaining to the AFL-CIO how he would vote on the
North American Free Trade Agreement. Senator Kerry voted to ratify
NAFTA in 1993.
Rindler Sigurd
"another fool" <anoth...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:44845040.03081...@posting.google.com...
> Japan has never compensated the slave laborers it held in prison work
> camps -
True, but the Germans and Austrians (and recently the Swiss) have not
voluntarily done so either! The Jewish lobby has achieved a lot by
threatening them to shun German products, especially the automotive mass
productions. Good words didn't get them anywhere, and neither will such
words impress the Japanese. All you have to do is convince them that there
are alternatives to Toyota, Nissan, Sony, etc... I'll bet my farm that the
Japanese will cough up lots of yen to make this nagging ghosts disappear...
once the orders don't come in!
Rindler Sigurd
>
I have yet to see one of these groups getting a single victory. Sometime ago
one group won, but the government appealed.
Yes, some Japanese environmental groups have won, but this doesn't happen to
often either.
I have a feeling that the judges are carefully selected people who belong to
the old boys network.Foreigners have truly less chances in winning a case.
Sigi
Kevin Gowen
>> Against the Japanese government. They are free to sue Japanese
>> companies.
>>
>
>
> I have yet to see one of these groups getting a single victory.
> Sometime ago
> one group won, but the government appealed.
> Yes, some Japanese environmental groups have won, but this doesn't
> happen to often either.
> I have a feeling that the judges are carefully selected people who
> belong to
> the old boys network.Foreigners have truly less chances in winning a
> case.
What's all this talk about foreigners? You make it sound like they have to
file suit in Japan.
http://tinyurl.com/jmmh
> Sigi
>
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________________
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Rindler Sigurd
> file suit in Japan.
> http://tinyurl.com/jmmh
>
Hmmm... I didn't read this URL and thought about Japan since many Chinese
have traveled to Japan in order to sue the government, companies, etc.
Anyway, I really wonder whether the Japanese will accept every court in the
world where a lawsuit is being filed.Of course, Japanese judges are biased,
and if the trial is fought in the Philippines or in China, some revenge can
be expected.According to the article, this is a mere Californian law. No
idea how much impact a verdict has.
mtfe...@netscape.net
> Japan has consistently claimed that the comfort women were willing
> participants and refused to deal directly with the issue. I think the
No, they admitted that both trickery and force were involved. What they
DIDN'T admit for a long while was that the government ordered the procurement
by any means possible. However, this came to light several years ago.
Mike
mtfe...@netscape.net
>> Against the Japanese government. They are free to sue Japanese companies.
> I have yet to see one of these groups getting a single victory. Sometime ago
Grous don't; individuals have won, and been paid. Of course, the amounts
are exceedingly small, but individuals have won.
> Yes, some Japanese environmental groups have won, but this doesn't happen to
> often either.
And the Minimata group won; only look em 30+ years.
> I have a feeling that the judges are carefully selected people who belong to
> the old boys network.Foreigners have truly less chances in winning a case.
No, not really; everyone has the same snowball's chance...
Mike
Rindler Sigurd
belong to
> > the old boys network.Foreigners have truly less chances in winning a
case.
>
> No, not really; everyone has the same snowball's chance...
True, but English teachers will run out of steam and money against the
state's unlimited access to taxpayer's money in order to pay the lawyers.
Some of the trials are more expensive than the actual amount in
controversy.
another fool
>
> Hmmm... I didn't read this URL and thought about Japan since many Chinese
> have traveled to Japan in order to sue the government, companies, etc.
> Anyway, I really wonder whether the Japanese will accept every court in the
> world where a lawsuit is being filed.Of course, Japanese judges are biased,
> and if the trial is fought in the Philippines or in China, some revenge can
> be expected.According to the article, this is a mere Californian law. No
> idea how much impact a verdict has.
>
Getting a verdict is one thing. Enforcing (or maintaining it on
appeal) and collecting on it is another thing entirely...
mtfe...@netscape.net
>> > I have a feeling that the judges are carefully selected people who
> belong to
>> > the old boys network.Foreigners have truly less chances in winning a
> case.
>>
>> No, not really; everyone has the same snowball's chance...
> True, but English teachers will run out of steam and money against the
> state's unlimited access to taxpayer's money in order to pay the lawyers.
Sorry for the confusion; "snowball's chance" refers to "a snowball's
chance in hell".
Ie, nobody has a good chance. Actually, I believe foreigners have a
slightly better chance than Japanese, as they are less subject to some
of the means of "persuasion" Japanese companines have used against
Japanese plaintiffs.
Mike
cc cc
"Rindler Sigurd" <srin...@da2.so-net.ne.jp> wrote in message
> True, but English teachers will run out of steam and money against the
> state's unlimited access to taxpayer's money in order to pay the lawyers.
There were English teachers in Unit 731 ?
CC
Rindler Sigurd
> slightly better chance than Japanese, as they are less subject to some
> of the means of "persuasion" Japanese companines have used against
> Japanese plaintiffs.
I said 'state'... meaning the Japanese government. Only those in the league
of Sony, Matsushita, etc., can keep a trial going. 98% of Chinese prisoners
of war, groups of Korean, Taiwanese, and Philippine comfort women, and other
individuals have lost their cases or will die before they reach the Supreme
court. Last year, Japanese leprosy patients won their case since the
government decided not to appeal. However this was not a humanitarian move
but a political decision since there would have been a backlash against the
ruling party.
What can one say about Japanese law, when a judge sends a bank robber 20
years behind bars, and sentences a guy to 4 years in prison for kicking a 4
year old child to death?
masayuki yoshida
http://tinyurl.com/jrcv
Five years ago, Mr Takabayashi questioned:
> user3...@aol.com (User370189) wrote:
>
>> " Japanese war crime of 300,000 Massacre (in Nanking) becomes a moral weapon
>> for Chinese government towards Japanese government. Although the Massacre is
>> different from Nazi*s Holocaust,
>
> Because fewer were killed? How was it different?
The main difference is that the Nanking Massacre was a contingent event
but Nazi's Holocaust was a national big project of race extinction.
Masayuki
mtfe...@netscape.net
>> Ie, nobody has a good chance. Actually, I believe foreigners have a
>> slightly better chance than Japanese, as they are less subject to some
>> of the means of "persuasion" Japanese companines have used against
>> Japanese plaintiffs.
> I said 'state'... meaning the Japanese government. Only those in the league
> of Sony, Matsushita, etc., can keep a trial going. 98% of Chinese prisoners
> of war, groups of Korean, Taiwanese, and Philippine comfort women, and other
> individuals have lost their cases or will die before they reach the Supreme
> court.
Uh, no, you mean before it reaches whatever highest court it will reach.
> What can one say about Japanese law, when a judge sends a bank robber 20
> years behind bars, and sentences a guy to 4 years in prison for kicking a 4
> year old child to death?
That it's not that different from a lot of places, if that's your
metric.
Mike
Eric Takabayashi
> http://tinyurl.com/jrcv
>
> Five years ago,
What are you doing? Do you have some obsessive need to vindicate war era Japanese
(whom you seem to feel no connection to anyway) by digging up old posts?
--
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masayuki yoshida
"Eric Takabayashi" <eta...@yahoo.co.jp> wrote in message
news:3F38F3CA...@yahoo.co.jp...
> masayuki yoshida wrote:
>
> > http://tinyurl.com/jrcv
> >
> > Five years ago,
>
> What are you doing? Do you have some obsessive need to vindicate war era Japanese
> (whom you seem to feel no connection to anyway) by digging up old posts?
Yes, I am interested in your mentality.
Masayuki
Eric Takabayashi
> "Eric Takabayashi" <eta...@yahoo.co.jp> wrote in message
> news:3F38F3CA...@yahoo.co.jp...
> > masayuki yoshida wrote:
> >
> > > http://tinyurl.com/jrcv
> > >
> > > Five years ago,
> >
> > What are you doing? Do you have some obsessive need to vindicate war era Japanese
> > (whom you seem to feel no connection to anyway) by digging up old posts?
>
> Yes, I am interested in your mentality.
Your own mentality in responding to a post five years later, when you were probably
active here at the time yourself, is also interesting, and maybe some sort of record.
Your being a person who feels some need to make excuses for Japanese wartime actions
or history, is sadly not surprising at all. The next time some Japanese whines about
war or Hiroshima, let's see how the war is not to be viewed from morality tack, or it
is less stressful to forget approach of yours, works.
> > > Mr Takabayashi questioned:
> > >
> > > > user3...@aol.com (User370189) wrote:
> > > >
> > > >> " Japanese war crime of 300,000 Massacre (in Nanking) becomes a moral weapon
> > > >> for Chinese government towards Japanese government. Although the Massacre is
> > > >> different from Nazi*s Holocaust,
> > > >
> > > > Because fewer were killed? How was it different?
> > >
> > > The main difference is that the Nanking Massacre was a contingent event
> > > but Nazi's Holocaust was a national big project of race extinction.
Which was worse, by the way? Would you care to claim there was no Japanese order to
kill, or that there were not soldiers who enjoyed the massacre or other atrocities? A
visiting Japanese pilot (who insists on perhaps 60,000 deaths) witnessed and fifty
years later reported the efficiency of the production line executions in Nanking.
--
"This is the best book I've ever read! Even though I've only
read one, it is by far the best in the world."
- A 12-year old reader from California, CA USA
Rindler Sigurd
league
> > of Sony, Matsushita, etc., can keep a trial going. 98% of Chinese
prisoners
> > of war, groups of Korean, Taiwanese, and Philippine comfort women, and
other
> > individuals have lost their cases or will die before they reach the
Supreme
> > court.
>
> Uh, no, you mean before it reaches whatever highest court it will reach.
>
Yes, they are running out of steam (money) and time. People with lots of
money have definitely better chances in Japan. And don't forget, that there
is no jury system in Japan. A biased judge can ruin ones life with one last
single word.
> > What can one say about Japanese law, when a judge sends a bank robber 20
> > years behind bars, and sentences a guy to 4 years in prison for kicking
a 4
> > year old child to death?
>
> That it's not that different from a lot of places, if that's your
> metric.
Yes, but I have experienced more extreme cases here than in the USA. Of
course, I have only access to various media reports which I cannot really
verify. In a US TV documentary "60 Minutes" I saw interviews of retired
judges from southern states who were clearly driven by their fundamentalist
religious beliefs and their bias against non-whites. All of them refused to
comment and tried to escape when confronted with the facts.
mtfe...@netscape.net
>> > I said 'state'... meaning the Japanese government. Only those in the
> league
>> > of Sony, Matsushita, etc., can keep a trial going. 98% of Chinese
> prisoners
>> > of war, groups of Korean, Taiwanese, and Philippine comfort women, and
> other
>> > individuals have lost their cases or will die before they reach the
> Supreme
>> > court.
>> Uh, no, you mean before it reaches whatever highest court it will reach.
> Yes, they are running out of steam (money) and time. People with lots of
> money have definitely better chances in Japan. And don't forget, that there
Uh, that's true anywhere.
> is no jury system in Japan. A biased judge can ruin ones life with one last
> single word.
Depending on the lawsuit, that's true anywhere as well; the jury, if any,
only here's the first trial. After that, it's all appeals.
>> > What can one say about Japanese law, when a judge sends a bank robber 20
>> > years behind bars, and sentences a guy to 4 years in prison for kicking
> a 4
>> > year old child to death?
>> That it's not that different from a lot of places, if that's your
> Yes, but I have experienced more extreme cases here than in the USA. Of
Well, here in SF, we had a guy kill a mayor and a councilman, and got
5 years pyschiatric evaluation for bad diet. Robbing federally-insured
banks is a federal crime.
Mike
Michael Cash
(MatthewOutland) belched the alphabet and kept on going with:
>I really don't understand what japanese militarists are militaristic about.
I don't understand why they wax nostalgic over having a world-class
ass kicking laid on them.
>
>
>
>I think japanese militarists just have too much spare time on their hands
Mostly on rainy days, when the construction crews can't do anything on
their job sites anyway.
--
Michael Cash
"There was a time, Mr. Cash, when I believed you must be the most useless
thing in the world. But that was before I read a Microsoft help file."
Prof. Ernest T. Bass
Mount Pilot College
Michael Cash
(MatthewOutland) belched the alphabet and kept on going with:
>I really don't understand what japanese militarists are militaristic about.
I don't understand why they wax nostalgic over having a world-class
ass kicking laid on them.
>
>
>
>I think japanese militarists just have too much spare time on their hands
Mostly on rainy days, when the construction crews can't do anything on
another fool
> True, but the Germans and Austrians (and recently the Swiss) have not
> voluntarily done so either! The Jewish lobby has achieved a lot by
> threatening them to shun German products, especially the automotive mass
> productions. Good words didn't get them anywhere, and neither will such
> words impress the Japanese. All you have to do is convince them that there
> are alternatives to Toyota, Nissan, Sony, etc... I'll bet my farm that the
> Japanese will cough up lots of yen to make this nagging ghosts disappear...
> once the orders don't come in!
>
Actually what the Germans/Austrians were trying to avoid was repaying
and returning all of the money that was illegally seazed from the Jews
as well as returning all of the looted artifacts, gold, and art works
stolen by their armies during the war.
What the Swiss were trying to avoid was opening their books that
showed just how cozy they were with Nazi Germany and how many millions
of dollars are still sitting in accounts at banks earning the Swiss
money since the owners are now deceased...
Rindler Sigurd
> and returning all of the money that was illegally seazed from the Jews
> as well as returning all of the looted artifacts, gold, and art works
> stolen by their armies during the war.
>
Exactly...
And lots of artifacts were re-looted by the Russians and (maybe) the other
occupation forces afterward. Banks in France, Spain, and even Portugal had
been linked to hiding stolen goods too, however, to a lesser extent.
The Brits shouldn't be too noisy about it either since the British museum is
a treasure chest of looted stuff from Egypt, India, and elsewhere. No need
to be proud of their cultural heritage and property.
> What the Swiss were trying to avoid was opening their books that
> showed just how cozy they were with Nazi Germany and how many millions
> of dollars are still sitting in accounts at banks earning the Swiss
> money since the owners are now deceased...
This fact was so well known before they finally were forced to open them.
The real reason for holding up until the last minute was the greed and the
attachment of the bank moguls to their illegally snatched up riches.
They have utterly denied everything until the last minute and finally broke
down, when it was determined that their stored gold bars contained traces of
mercury... something which is difficult to get rid of when gold teeth are
melted down with the occasional piece amalgam still attached. This method
enabled the prosecutors to accuse a number of other (enemy) countries of
collaboration with the nazis.
Sigi
another fool
>
> This fact was so well known before they finally were forced to open them.
> The real reason for holding up until the last minute was the greed and the
> attachment of the bank moguls to their illegally snatched up riches.
> They have utterly denied everything until the last minute and finally broke
> down, when it was determined that their stored gold bars contained traces of
> mercury... something which is difficult to get rid of when gold teeth are
> melted down with the occasional piece amalgam still attached. This method
> enabled the prosecutors to accuse a number of other (enemy) countries of
> collaboration with the nazis.
>
Actually amalgamation was (and still is in some parts of the world -
the Brazillian bore dredges use it almost exclusively) a very common
way of extracting gold at that time. In N. California you can still
find remains of some of the old sluices used during their hydromining
days. It is almost impossible not to find left over mercury in the
sluices. I don't know if it would be possible to tell the difference
between mercury used in the refining process and mercury used in
dental amalgam.
Rindler Sigurd
> the Brazillian bore dredges use it almost exclusively) a very common
> way of extracting gold at that time. In N. California you can still
> find remains of some of the old sluices used during their hydromining
> days. It is almost impossible not to find left over mercury in the
> sluices. I don't know if it would be possible to tell the difference
> between mercury used in the refining process and mercury used in
> dental amalgam.
Yes, it is... and this was the actual reason why the culprits could be
pinpointed. I saw a documentary (probably BBC) here in Japan right after the
accusations. It seems that all banks (or countries where the banks were
operating) have owned up to their misdeeds. Besides, there was other
evidence like documents that showed when the German gold deliveries took
place, and to whom they had been addressed.
Distinguishing traces of mercury from dental amalgam and mercury in the
mining process was possible through a new method which was compared to the
"DNA method". 30 years ago it wasn't possible to tell.
Sigi
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