Teigin A Walk Down Memory Lane
Michael Cash
http://tinyurl.com/iv8f
In that thread, Scott made mention of Hirasawa Sadamichi, the man
sentenced to death for January 1948's infamous Teigin Jiken, in which
someone entered the Shiina-machi branch of the Teikoku Bank just after
3 p.m. and managed to dupe the entire staff into taking poison. Twelve
died and four survived.
Hirasawa spent 39 years in prison for that crime, almost all of it on
death row, eventually passing away in a prison hospital at the ripe
and decrepit age of 95.
One of the unique things about this case is that it isn't just some
murder from the musty past....the defense team is to this day still
hammering away trying to get a retrial.
I had heard passing mention of this case in several places, and
gradually developed an interest in hearing/reading about the
particulars of it. So recently I hunted around on Amazon Japan and
came up with 帝銀事件の全貌と平沢貞通 http://tinyurl.com/iv8v , which
I have been reading for the past few days.
There are some rather amazing things about this case.
Prior to the Teigin poisonings, a person believed to be the same man
attempted something similar at two different banks. In neither case
was anyone harmed. Hirasawa was charged with crimes in all three
cases. Care to guess how many pieces of physical evidence the
prosecution had which connected Hirasawa to *any* of the three crime
scenes? Capital Z Capital E Capital R Capital O.
From the two earlier attempts (or practice runs, as some think them to
have been) and from the Teigin case, there were a total of 50
eyewitnesses who saw the perpetrator. The breakdown of their
testimony:
That's him! 4
He resembles the guy 14
I can't be sure 22
There's something different 7
That ain't him 1
I don't know 2
Hardly the world's most damning identification of a perpetrator. In
fact, when the police initially brought Hirasawa in, they had 11 of
the eyewitnesses come down to the police station to identify him. He
wasn't placed in a lineup so people had to pick him out, the
eyewitnesses saw him all by himself. Results? Six of the eleven said
"That's not him". The other five said "He resembles him". Apparently
lots of guys in Tokyo resembled the murderer, because the Tokyo police
investigated 8,750 men who resembled a montage created by a police
artist.
Scott made mention of a coerced confession. While coerced confessions
aren't uncommon in Japan, the police/prosecutors have another trick up
their sleeves...the outright forgery of confessions. Isobe Tsuneharu,
a MoJ lawyer tasked with being a sort of human rights advocate within
the MoJ, in September 1955 received a request from Hirasawa to examine
his case. Isobe's initial reaction was that since three judges at the
local court and three judges at the appeals court and fifteen judges
at the supreme court had all found him guilty and sentenced him to
death, then it was pretty damned obvious that he must have committed
the crime. But Isobe went down to waded through an ocean of court
records on the matter anyway.
He noticed something very interesting about the confessions the
prosecutor went to court with. There were three confessions,
supposedly obtained on two consecutive days while interrogating
Hirasawa at the Tokyo Detention Facility, where he was being held.
Isobe noticed that the signatures on the confessions looked so
amazingly identical that it were as though someone had pressed down
really hard while writing on a stack of papers and then used the
indentations on the underlying sheets as a guide for filling in a new
signature. He believed both signatures to be forgeries, but even if
they weren't he found it hard to believe that a person could write his
signature precisely the same on two different days.
The *most* interesting thing he noticed about the confessions, though,
was the fingerprints on them. Not the latent prints, but the kind they
ink a finger and have the suspect place his fingerprint on the paper
as a sort of proof.
Isobe noticed that in the inked fingerprints on *all* of the
confessions there were visible two small, white, overlapping circles.
And he noticed that the two circles were in precisely the same place
on the fingerprints from both days. And that in other regards the
fingerprints appeared identical on the page.
Isobe sent copies of the confessions to the Forensic Science lab at
Osaka City University and asked to have them analyzed. At the same
time, he sent an inquiry to the head of the Tokyo Detention Center
inquiring if Hirasawa had been interrogated on the dates of the
confessions.
In January 1959, Isobe received the results:
1. There is a very strong possibility that the signatures are
forgeries
2. The fingerprints are Hirasawa's, but all the prints appear
identical in every way. The two overlapping white rings weren't caused
by Hirasawa's finger, but are the result of the finger failing to pick
up ink because of corresponding indentations in the ink (they used the
same pasty stuff used for hanko). The lab took close-up photos of the
prints and then sandwiched the negatives together. The result? It
looked like a single photo.
It is impossible to imagine that the rings would appear at precisely
the same position in the fingerprint from inkings done on two
different days. But it is possible that the prints would appear the
same if they were all taken from a single inking.
Further, he received official word from the head of the Tokyo
Detention Center that no one had been in to interrogate Hirasawa on
the days the confessions were dated.
Isobe ended up resigning from the MoJ and joining Hirasawa's defense
team.
All this (and more), and I'm only on Chapter 3.
Hirasawa got royally fucking railroaded.
--
Michael Cash
"There was a time, Mr. Cash, when I believed you must be the most useless
thing in the world. But that was before I read a Microsoft help file."
Prof. Ernest T. Bass
Mount Pilot College
Curt Fischer
Michael Cash wrote:
>
> This is sort of picking up again on a thread from two years ago
> http://tinyurl.com/iv8f
>
> In that thread, Scott made mention of Hirasawa Sadamichi, the man
> sentenced to death for January 1948's infamous Teigin Jiken, in which
> someone entered the Shiina-machi branch of the Teikoku Bank just after
> 3 p.m. and managed to dupe the entire staff into taking poison. Twelve
> died and four survived.
[snip]
> There are some rather amazing things about this case.
[snip amazing things]
If you get a chance I'd love to hear more about this. Specifically, if
the incident and the initial workings of "justice" occured in 1948, and
it the case was as famous as it sounds, I'd be interested to hear if,
when, and how the US Occupation forces were involved...
Anything more you find out that is juicy and wild you should post here,
though.
Thanks for posting!
--
Curt Fischer
Eric Takabayashi
Curt Fischer
Eric Takabayashi wrote:
>
> Did you hear this last month?
>
> http://tinyurl.com/ivop
It is very interesting that this mentions Unit 731. Although it would
be very difficult for me given my current Japanese ability, I have been
thinking about trying to read
to find out more about Unit 731 and the post-war exchanges of
information between American and Japanese weapons scientists. I don't
suppose anyone has read this book?
--
Curt Fischer
Eric Takabayashi
> Eric Takabayashi wrote:
> >
> > Did you hear this last month?
> >
> > http://tinyurl.com/ivop
>
> It is very interesting that this mentions Unit 731.
Isn't it. How come some Japanese investigators would even know about the
existence or activities of Unit 731, not known or revealed to the public
until the 90s, fifty years ago? I should say that
about Unit 731, for example, mentions the Teigin case.
> Although it would
> be very difficult for me given my current Japanese ability, I have been
> thinking about trying to read
>
> http://tinyurl.com/ivqa
>
> to find out more about Unit 731 and the post-war exchanges of
> information between American and Japanese weapons scientists.
would call the US getting human experimentation data from Japan, much more
than "exchange".
You can see links to a number of other books on Unit 731 such as Factories
of Death: Japanese Biological Warfare, 1932-45 and the American Cover-Up,
by Sheldon H. Harris
and more on that page as well,
Hidden Horrors: Japanese War Crimes in World War II (Transitions--Asia and
Asian America) by Yuki Tanaka, et al
The United States and Biological Warfare: Secrets from the Early Cold War
and Korea by Stephen Endicott, Edward Hagerman
The Biology of Doom: The History of America's Secret Germ Warfare Project
by Ed Regis (Paperback)
if that is your kind of thing. (Note that Amazon Japan often offers
discounts that the foreign sites do not.)
Come to think of it, I'm looking for somewhere I could read about
allegations the US used caged prisoners in the US during nuclear
detonation experiments.
> I don't suppose anyone has read this book?
You could probably ask either of the Mikes.
Michael Cash
belched the alphabet and kept on going with:
No, but it only took a single mouse click to add it to my shopping
cart.
Michael Cash
<eta...@yahoo.co.jp> belched the alphabet and kept on going with:
>Did you hear this last month?
>
>http://tinyurl.com/ivop
Nope, I missed that. Thanks for sharing. It just emphasizes even more
that despite Hirasawa having been dead for 16 years, the legal battle
is far from over.
Some remarks on the article, if I may:
===================================================================
It started Jan. 26, 1948, when a man claiming to be a public health
official walked into a branch of Teikoku Ginko (Imperial Bank) in
Tokyo's Shiinamachi district and told 16 clerks and customers
dysentery had broken out in the neighborhood.
He told them to drink a liquid he claimed was a remedy.
The liquid was actually poison.
Twelve of the 16 people died, and the murderer escaped from the bank
with cash and checks.
===================================================================
It started the previous year when someone did something similar at two
other banks in Tokyo. The prosecution presents those two cases as
failed attempts. The defense argues that since nobody was injured in
either of them, they may have been dry-run practices.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Seven months later, Hirasawa, then a famous painter, was arrested as a
suspect. A health ministry official whose business card was presented
by the perpetrator of a similar poisoning attempt told police Hirasawa
was among those to whom he had given his card.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
This refers to the second "dry-run" incident. I hadn't heard it was a
health ministry official, though it may have been. The card was from a
Dr. Matsui, first name Shigeru, of Sendai. This was a man Hirasawa met
*one* time when they both passengers aboard the ferry from Aomori to
Hakodate. The card was presented to the manager of the second bank,
the person attempting to pass himself off as Dr. Matsui.
It turns out that this particular card came from a set of 100 cards
that Dr. Matsui had printed at a particular print shop. The cards
could be so identified because the shop didn't have the correct type
for the kanji he used for his first name. Instead, they jury-rigged a
type out of two others, giving the cards in this set a distinctive
appearance.
A Tokyo detective went to Dr. Matsui and interviewed him on people he
had exchanged cards with. Magnifying the problem greatly was the fact
that at the same period of time, in addition to the 100 unique cards,
Dr. Matsui was also using a batch of 500 cards he had had printed
elsewhere.
Of the 100 unique cards:
Still in Dr. Matsui's possession 7
Still in recipient's possession 62
No longer in recipient's possession 23
Can't recall who he gave them to 8
Naturally, only the 69 cards in the first two lines are a sure thing.
The other 31 definitely went *somewhere*, with one of them being used
in the second bank case. Hirasawa no longer had the card he had
received, claiming it was inside a valise which was stolen at a train
station in Tokyo. Furthermore, remember that the doctor was using
cards from a different batch of 500 at the same time he was using the
batch of 100. Among the people who no longer had the card, for
whatever reason, it can't even be established *which* card they got.
There is a rumor that the investigator narrowed the list of people who
couldn't account for their cards down to about 14...and then consulted
a fortune teller who analyzed all the names based on their readings,
stroke count and whatnot. Then, based on all this hoo-doo he declared
that Hirasawa was the culprit. Again, that's just a rumor.
So far in the discussion of the card, while there is nothing that
directly irrefutably points at Hirasawa, there is also nothing that
exonerates him. Keep reading, here comes the good part...
At the trial it came out that Dr. Matsui's cards didn't bear his home
address. For those people whom he wished to have that info, he would
write it on the back with a pencil when he handed them his card. Dr.
Matsui had done so on the card he gave to Hirasawa. But at the time of
the trial it was found that although there had previously been writing
on the back of the card, it had been erased. Since the card was the
sole piece of physical evidence the prosecution had presented to link
Hirasawa to the crimes, a lot was riding on what had been written on
the card. The card was turned over to the Tokyo Police crime lab to be
analyzed. It was found that the erased writing originally said
板橋区練馬安田銀行現場
Shades of O.J. Simpson evidence handling here. The cop who collected
the card from the Yasuda Bank crime scene wrote that on the card to
identify it. Later on, when somebody informed the dumbass that such is
*not* the way to be treating evidence, he (or they) compounded the
error by erasing it.
At any rate, it shows that the card left at the scene was *not* the
one that Hirasawa received.
====================================================================
He was tried, found guilty and sentenced to death. The Supreme Court
upheld the sentence in 1955, mainly on the basis of a written
confession Hirasawa later retracted. He continued to maintain his
innocence.
====================================================================
No wonder he "retracted" it, he didn't even make it. He and the
prosecutors weren't even in the same building on the two days the
confessions were made.
That the confessions were forgeries was suspected by a MoJ lawyer, and
backed up by analysis from Osaka City College's crime lab and
statements from the head of the facility where Hirasawa was held. The
defense team used this as the basis for requesting a new trial.
The new trial was denied.
Under Japanese law, if you want to do something like that, it must
first be legally established that the item was a forgery. And they
have a very bizarre test for this: somebody has to be convicted of
making the forgery. So basically they say, "We don't give a shit if it
is demonstrably a forgery. Unless somebody had been arrested,
prosecuted, convicted, and sentenced for it, you can't use it".
So the defense team went to the prosecutor's office and filed a
criminal complaint regarding the forgery. The matter was referred to a
local branch of the prosecutor's office, which refused to take action
on it. With good reason, though. The statute of limitations for
prosecuting the forgery had expired 8 years previously. The law does
provide that in such cases, a new trial can be requested even without
a conviction, but it isn't clear whether the team did so or not.
One reason why it isn't clear is because the courts/prosecutors deny
the defense team access to or copies of PUBLIC records regarding the
case.
///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
The main piece of evidence in the 19th appeal is a memorandum by a
deceased investigator that indicates investigators at the time
believed someone from a secret unit within the old Imperial Japanese
Army must have been involved in the Teigin Incident.
The investigators believed the rare poison used in the murder could
only have been obtained by certain people, such as those working for
the notorious Unit 731, a secret organization within the army believed
to have conducted experiments on human victims during the war in an
effort to produce chemical arms and other weapons of mass destruction.
The supporters claim the poison was not potassium cyanide as the
courts ruled, because the poisoning symptoms weren't immediate.
But the investigators suddenly switched their attention to Hirasawa,
leading defense lawyers to suspect that pressure from government
authorities, who wanted to keep the unit's wartime activities secret,
was exerted on the investigative team.
The Japan Times: July 5, 2003
(C) All rights reserved
//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
And, reportedly, lots of records on the case from the GHQ side of the
matter have been obtained under the Freedom of Information Act. I
haven't read far enough to find anything that absolutely declares the
culprit to have been a Unit 731 member being protected by the US
military, but the records (that I've read so far) do support the
assertion that from the very beginning Japanese investigatory efforts
were focused squarely on people involved with that or similar units.
They sure as hell weren't rooting around for a 56 year-old artist.
Curt Fischer
Michael Cash wrote:
>
> On Sun, 03 Aug 2003 15:25:32 +0900, Curt Fischer <cr...@po.cwru.edu>
> belched the alphabet and kept on going with:
>
> >
> >
> >Eric Takabayashi wrote:
> >>
> >> Did you hear this last month?
> >>
> >> http://tinyurl.com/ivop
> >
> >It is very interesting that this mentions Unit 731. Although it would
> >be very difficult for me given my current Japanese ability, I have been
> >thinking about trying to read
> >
> >http://tinyurl.com/ivqa
> >
> >to find out more about Unit 731 and the post-war exchanges of
> >information between American and Japanese weapons scientists. I don't
> >suppose anyone has read this book?
>
> No, but it only took a single mouse click to add it to my shopping
> cart.
Well, now I'm in a pickle. I can't decide what will be harder: waiting
for you to read the book and post all the interesting stuff here, or
trying to read it myself.
I guess I'll try reading it myself (although I think waiting for you to
do it for me might be easier [by the slimmest of margins]).
--
Curt Fischer
Curt Fischer
Michael Cash wrote:
> The investigators believed the rare poison used in the murder could
> only have been obtained by certain people, such as those working for
> the notorious Unit 731, a secret organization within the army believed
> to have conducted experiments on human victims during the war in an
> effort to produce chemical arms and other weapons of mass destruction.
>
> The supporters claim the poison was not potassium cyanide as the
> courts ruled, because the poisoning symptoms weren't immediate.
Does anything say anywhere what the poison *was*, rather than only what
it *wasn't* ? As a microbiologist/chemical engineer, I'm kinda curious
about that point...
--
Curt Fischer
mtfe...@netscape.net
> Curt Fischer wrote:
>> Eric Takabayashi wrote:
>> > Did you hear this last month?
>> > http://tinyurl.com/ivop
>>
>> It is very interesting that this mentions Unit 731.
> Isn't it. How come some Japanese investigators would even know about the
> existence or activities of Unit 731, not known or revealed to the public
> until the 90s, fifty years ago? I should say that
Um, you're gonna have to clear up these dates; did you mean the 60s? Ienaga
wrote about it.
> Come to think of it, I'm looking for somewhere I could read about
> allegations the US used caged prisoners in the US during nuclear
> detonation experiments.
Dunno; they did do experiments with with various medicines on their own
servicement, though.
Mike
Michael Cash
I can tell you which would be quicker; read it yourself. It might be
two or three years before I get around to actually reading it. Or it
might be next month. But I would put my money on the former, if I were
you.
masayuki yoshida
> > Isn't it. How come some Japanese investigators would even know about the
> > existence or activities of Unit 731, not known or revealed to the public
> > until the 90s, fifty years ago? I should say that
>
> Um, you're gonna have to clear up these dates; did you mean the 60s? Ienaga
> wrote about it.
Correct. I have once heard that the first report over Unit 731 popped up in a kasutori
magazine or something in the 50s. Seiichi Morimura, mystery novelist, published a
documentary book on the subject, the book became a million seller in 1981 or 1982. The
story of the evil experiment has been ubiquitously talked amonst Japanese ever since
then.
Masayuki
Eric Takabayashi
So why the surprise among the general public as recently as the 90s when aged soldiers
came forward or researchers publicized their findings and people created a traveling
exhibit? Why the cover-ups as when suspicious bodies found buried in mass graves in Tokyo
are simply disposed of? Why the government denials? And why don't students know?
--
"This is the best book I've ever read! Even though I've only read one, it is by far the
best in the world."
- A 12-year old reader from California, CA USA
masayuki yoshida
"Eric Takabayashi" <eta...@yahoo.co.jp> wrote in message
news:3F30E795...@yahoo.co.jp...
> masayuki yoshida wrote:
>
> > > > Isn't it. How come some Japanese investigators would even know about the
> > > > existence or activities of Unit 731, not known or revealed to the public
> > > > until the 90s, fifty years ago? I should say that
> > >
> > > Um, you're gonna have to clear up these dates; did you mean the 60s? Ienaga
> > > wrote about it.
> >
> > Correct. I have once heard that the first report over Unit 731 popped up in a
kasutori
> > magazine or something in the 50s. Seiichi Morimura, mystery novelist, published a
> > documentary book on the subject, the book became a million seller in 1981 or 1982.
The
> > story of the evil experiment has been ubiquitously talked amonst Japanese ever since
> > then.
>
> So why the surprise among the general public as recently as the 90s when aged soldiers
> came forward or researchers publicized their findings and people created a traveling
> exhibit? Why the cover-ups as when suspicious bodies found buried in mass graves in
Tokyo
> are simply disposed of? Why the government denials? And why don't students know?
I provided with some facts which suggest that many people know the story of Unit 731 for
the late two or three decades. Do you want to deny the facts?
Masayuki
Eric Takabayashi
> "Eric Takabayashi" <eta...@yahoo.co.jp> wrote in message
> news:3F30E795...@yahoo.co.jp...
> > masayuki yoshida wrote:
> >
> > > > > Isn't it. How come some Japanese investigators would even know about the
> > > > > existence or activities of Unit 731, not known or revealed to the public
> > > > > until the 90s, fifty years ago? I should say that
> > > >
> > > > Um, you're gonna have to clear up these dates; did you mean the 60s? Ienaga
> > > > wrote about it.
> > >
> > > Correct. I have once heard that the first report over Unit 731 popped up in a
> kasutori
> > > magazine or something in the 50s. Seiichi Morimura, mystery novelist, published a
> > > documentary book on the subject, the book became a million seller in 1981 or 1982.
> The
> > > story of the evil experiment has been ubiquitously talked amonst Japanese ever since
> > > then.
> >
> > So why the surprise among the general public as recently as the 90s when aged soldiers
> > came forward or researchers publicized their findings and people created a traveling
> > exhibit? Why the cover-ups as when suspicious bodies found buried in mass graves in
> Tokyo
> > are simply disposed of? Why the government denials? And why don't students know?
>
> I provided with some facts which suggest that many people know the story of Unit 731 for
> the late two or three decades. Do you want to deny the facts?
It is you denying facts, if you deny the general public did not know until recently, the
government continues such acts as keeping files sealed, or simply disposing of embarrassing
evidence such as bodies unearthed in Tokyo, and "many" people (many more than you claim
knew since the 1950s) still do not know.
So a book about Unit 731 became a "million" seller in 1982. Gotai Fumanzoku became about a
five million seller in a matter of months, but extensive media exposure was still necessary
for the Japanese public to know about Ototake, and much more exposure and time will be
necessary before people actually take heed of his message and cause.
Look at how much time and effort it has taken (PLUS admission by North Korea) for the
abduction issue to be known to Japanese and attract so much attention. Japanese do not even
know or care about the THOUSANDS of OTHER Japanese still not back from the war era, and NOT
living as elites as the surviving abductees and their families were. People already seem to
have conveniently forgotten that it is the Japanese government and Japanese public
themselves who did not listen to the abductees' families or act on their pleas over the
decades.
The burning of paper cranes at the Peace Memorial Park last week is probably better known
or understood, (or cared about more) than Unit 731. People were SO offended by the
"trampling upon of people's hopes for peace" and within days 200,000 paper cranes were
collected the criminals' school to replace the 140,000 symbolic pieces of paper (less than
one week's supply of the 10 MILLION paper cranes placed every year, the rest probably
TRASHED anyway, and look at how effectively they have maintained world peace) that he
burned.
I wonder how many decades if ever, it will take for Japanese to be so offended by what Unit
731 did, the fact that some researchers became high ranking officials, or the fact the
issue is unresolved?
masayuki yoshida
This site (in Japanese) suggests that several books on Unit 731 were published in the
50s and 60s.
http://www.ne.jp/asahi/net/jpn/sizimi/evils/bibliography.html
You will be surprised at finding a mountain of references there. If, despite of there
being such rich references in Japan, many people are not familiar with the project,
they would be very busy in doing other things for their own living. That is one of
their choices. I can understand that as a matter of sensitivity people don't want to
know about such an evil history. To forget or to be unaware is *sometimes* the best way
for getting through the stress burden society.
Masayuki
mtfe...@netscape.net
> masayuki yoshida wrote:
>> > > Isn't it. How come some Japanese investigators would even know about the
>> > > existence or activities of Unit 731, not known or revealed to the public
>> > > until the 90s, fifty years ago? I should say that
>> >
>> > Um, you're gonna have to clear up these dates; did you mean the 60s? Ienaga
>> > wrote about it.
>> Correct. I have once heard that the first report over Unit 731 popped up in a kasutori
>> magazine or something in the 50s. Seiichi Morimura, mystery novelist, published a
>> documentary book on the subject, the book became a million seller in 1981 or 1982. The
>> story of the evil experiment has been ubiquitously talked amonst Japanese ever since
>> then.
> So why the surprise among the general public as recently as the 90s when aged soldiers
> came forward or researchers publicized their findings and people created a traveling
> exhibit?
I dunno; the Asahi Shimbun was publishing various letters from it readers
which included letters from soldiers supposedly involved in turning
people over for experimentation. There's a volume in English (a distillation
of a two-volume set still available in Japanese) called "Senso". The letters
dated from the early 80s, and an Asahi reporter was shot-gunned to death
in an attempt to halt publication of those letters, it seems.
> Why the cover-ups as when suspicious bodies found buried in mass graves in Tokyo
> are simply disposed of? Why the government denials? And why don't students know?
Mass graves in Tokyo? Of people killed by 731? That's news to me?
As for the government denials, they've been doing that for decades; why
change now. And a cynic might point out that the Japanese government's
decades-long series of denials might simply be a foreshadowing of the
current (ie, last 10-odd years) US government's "spin-doctoring".
Why don't students know? I dunno; I keep hearing most American students
couldn't find Iraq on a map, yet the only such people I actually met
were either very young or "uninspired" students. I suspect this isn't
much different.
Mike
masayuki yoshida
"masayuki yoshida" <ys...@yahoo.co.jp> wrote in message
news:bgqnp2$rinn0$1...@ID-201147.news.uni-berlin.de...
> Correct. I have once heard that the first report over Unit 731 popped up in a
kasutori
> magazine or something in the 50s.
'Naichi ni ikiteiru saikin butai - kantougun 731 butai wo sabaku', Shinso, 6-13, April
1950.
Masayuki
mtfe...@netscape.net
> It is you denying facts, if you deny the general public did not know until recently, the
Could you define this a bit more tightly? It's not like Ienaga's book
didn't sell well in Japan in the 60s, after all.
> government continues such acts as keeping files sealed, or simply disposing of embarrassing
> evidence such as bodies unearthed in Tokyo, and "many" people (many more than you claim
> knew since the 1950s) still do not know.
Again, I haven't heard of "mass-graves" in Tokyo.
> So a book about Unit 731 became a "million" seller in 1982. Gotai Fumanzoku became about a
And yet you stated that people hadn't heard about this in the 90s...
> Look at how much time and effort it has taken (PLUS admission by North Korea) for the
> abduction issue to be known to Japanese and attract so much attention. Japanese do not even
Actually, from what I gather, the abduction issue (if you're talking about
the N K abductions of Japanese) was well-known among people living on Ura-
nihon, and the government simply stuck its head in the sand.
> know or care about the THOUSANDS of OTHER Japanese still not back from the war era, and NOT
Thousands? Maybe, but they'd be at least 59 by now, and no longer Japanese.
> have conveniently forgotten that it is the Japanese government and Japanese public
> themselves who did not listen to the abductees' families or act on their pleas over the
> decades.
Which might point out that the problem with the Japanese government is more
one of motivation and laziness than one of malicious cover-up.
> I wonder how many decades if ever, it will take for Japanese to be so offended by what Unit
> 731 did,
I dunno; the German people are no longer "offended" by the actions of the
Nazis, though they don't support them. Simply, it was part of a history
from a couple decades ago, and they don't feel enough of an emotional
connection to feel "offended".
> the fact that some researchers became high ranking officials, or the fact the
> issue is unresolved?
Again, what would you mean by "resolved"?
Mike
Eric Takabayashi
> This site (in Japanese) suggests that several books on Unit 731 were published in the
> 50s and 60s.
>
> http://www.ne.jp/asahi/net/jpn/sizimi/evils/bibliography.html
>
> You will be surprised at finding a mountain of references there.
Whatever you say. People are still ignorant, and people still aren't telling.
> If, despite of there
> being such rich references in Japan, many people are not familiar with the project,
> they would be very busy in doing other things for their own living.
Like bitching about North Korea when they ignored the issue for over two decades. As a
matter of fact, there are thousands more Japanese and their descendants trapped in North
Korea, but despite some sparse news coverage such as of family members missing relatives
for FIVE decades, the public still doesn't care about them.
> That is one of their choices.
Like crying over 140,000 disposable pieces of paper instead.
> I can understand that as a matter of sensitivity people don't want to
> know about such an evil history.
You mean about their OWN wrongdoing. When it comes to Japan as victim, they must never
forget. Of course Hiroshima overshadows other mass deaths of Japanese during the war.
> To forget or to be unaware is *sometimes* the best way
> for getting through the stress burden society.
What day was today? Why are the Japanese so sensitive about today? How much less stress it
would be to forget or to understand such an outcome as inevitable when starting a war
against the US.
Eric Takabayashi
> > So why the surprise among the general public as recently as the 90s when aged soldiers
> > came forward or researchers publicized their findings and people created a traveling
> > exhibit?
>
> I dunno; the Asahi Shimbun was publishing various letters from it readers
> which included letters from soldiers supposedly involved in turning
> people over for experimentation.
Look at how much respect "letters from readers" gets. I've read letters from readers. It is
like a polite, slow motion version of usenet.
> There's a volume in English (a distillation
> of a two-volume set still available in Japanese) called "Senso". The letters
> dated from the early 80s, and an Asahi reporter was shot-gunned to death
> in an attempt to halt publication of those letters, it seems.
Too bad so much trouble is not taken to resolve war issues, instead of cover them up, yes?
> > Why the cover-ups as when suspicious bodies found buried in mass graves in Tokyo
> > are simply disposed of? Why the government denials? And why don't students know?
>
> Mass graves in Tokyo? Of people killed by 731? That's news to me?
No surprise, as it was clumsily covered up. If not for the efforts of some group to try to
prevent the government from destroying the bodies (which it did), we never would have heard
of it in the first place.
> As for the government denials, they've been doing that for decades; why
> change now.
Even North Korea can admit to some ugly truths, more openly (internationally, anyway) and
decades more quickly. They even make poor attempts at actual resolution, like returning
abductees, and months later, offering to return their children (with conditions). But Japan
thinks they are better than North Korea.
> And a cynic might point out that the Japanese government's
> decades-long series of denials might simply be a foreshadowing of the
> current (ie, last 10-odd years) US government's "spin-doctoring".
I no longer bother attempting to defend actions or policies of the US. People can complain
all they want. But we are talking about Japan.
> Why don't students know? I dunno; I keep hearing most American students
> couldn't find Iraq on a map,
That is hardly what is important regarding the war in Iraq. Neither is whether or not
Japanese children can properly place China on a map so important on the matter of Unit 731.
I've forgotten the name of the village and Japanese who have gone public, myself.
> yet the only such people I actually met
> were either very young or "uninspired" students.
Young Americans are as apathetic about Iraq as Japanese are about unpleasant parts of
Japanese history?
> I suspect this isn't much different.
When I meet foreigners of any persuasion, it is hard for American issues NOT to come up.
Japanese show more interest in American issues than Japanese ones.
Eric Takabayashi
Wake me when Japanese know or care.
Eric Takabayashi
> Eric Takabayashi <eta...@yahoo.co.jp> wrote:
>
> > It is you denying facts, if you deny the general public did not know until recently, the
>
> Could you define this a bit more tightly?
You see how Japanese can't stop talking about North Korea, and are so (relatively) demanding
over the issue? You see the difference in progress made on resolution? That is what happens when
Japanese actually know and care about an issue.
> It's not like Ienaga's book
> didn't sell well in Japan in the 60s, after all.
So why are Japanese still surprised en masse 30 years later?
> > government continues such acts as keeping files sealed, or simply disposing of embarrassing
> > evidence such as bodies unearthed in Tokyo, and "many" people (many more than you claim
> > knew since the 1950s) still do not know.
>
> Again, I haven't heard of "mass-graves" in Tokyo.
>
> > So a book about Unit 731 became a "million" seller in 1982. Gotai Fumanzoku became about a
>
> And yet you stated that people hadn't heard about this in the 90s...
They hadn't. Millions of Japanese probably have picked up Oe's books since he got the Nobel, but
still haven't actually read him.
> > Look at how much time and effort it has taken (PLUS admission by North Korea) for the
> > abduction issue to be known to Japanese and attract so much attention. Japanese do not even
>
> Actually, from what I gather, the abduction issue (if you're talking about
> the N K abductions of Japanese) was well-known among people living on Ura-
> nihon,
So why the widespread surprise? Why is it now and not three decades ago that people are actually
afraid to travel to the Sea of Japan lest they somehow be abducted, decades after the last known
cases?
Do these people also know about the thousands of Japanese who accompanied returnees to North
Korea and their descendants, suffering five decades later, but simply don't care, thus no public
outcry or government response even a hundredth that of the abduction issue?
> and the government simply stuck its head in the sand.
That we know.
> > know or care about the THOUSANDS of OTHER Japanese still not back from the war era, and NOT
>
> Thousands? Maybe, but they'd be at least 59 by now, and no longer Japanese.
What, you don't know about the Japanese in North Korea for five decades either? You put no faith
in the allegations just this month independent investigation has suggested about 240 Japanese
may have been abducted over the decades?
> > have conveniently forgotten that it is the Japanese government and Japanese public
> > themselves who did not listen to the abductees' families or act on their pleas over the
> > decades.
>
> Which might point out that the problem with the Japanese government is more
> one of motivation and laziness than one of malicious cover-up.
Why is not important.
> > I wonder how many decades if ever, it will take for Japanese to be so offended by what Unit
> > 731 did,
>
> I dunno; the German people are no longer "offended" by the actions of the
> Nazis, though they don't support them.
The issue is not Germany; however, the German approach is much better than the Japanese one.
> Simply, it was part of a history
> from a couple decades ago, and they don't feel enough of an emotional
> connection to feel "offended".
Though I do wonder how much responsibility the German public feels for WWII instead of merely
blaming it on Hitler and the SS or some Nazis, as if they appeared and came to power from
nowhere.
> > the fact that some researchers became high ranking officials, or the fact the
> > issue is unresolved?
>
> Again, what would you mean by "resolved"?
For example, see the demands Japanese (the public or government) make regarding the decades old
abduction issue, and contrast that to what Japan has done regarding Japanese war atrocities.
People actually believe that individual agents should be prosecuted and punished for their
deeds, and money paid to individual victims and families. They will sit and wait while millions
(gaijin, of course) starve to death, withholding aid, over the issue of 13 known abductees and
their children, staying away from the bargaining table. Other Asian nations do not seem as
sensitive and demanding about WWII as Japan is about the fate of 13 known abductees and their
children.
masayuki yoshida
> masayuki yoshida wrote:
>
> > "masayuki yoshida" <ys...@yahoo.co.jp> wrote in message
> > news:bgqnp2$rinn0$1...@ID-201147.news.uni-berlin.de...
> >
> > > Correct. I have once heard that the first report over Unit 731 popped up in a
> > kasutori
> > > magazine or something in the 50s.
> >
> > 'Naichi ni ikiteiru saikin butai - kantougun 731 butai wo sabaku', Shinso, 6-13,
April
> > 1950.
>
> Wake me when Japanese know or care.
I learned from my English teachers that when I request someone to do we have to add a
word 'please'. Didn't you learn how to use 'please'?
Masayuki
Eric Takabayashi
> "Eric Takabayashi" <eta...@yahoo.co.jp> wrote in message
> news:3F310B16...@yahoo.co.jp...
> > masayuki yoshida wrote:
> >
> > > "masayuki yoshida" <ys...@yahoo.co.jp> wrote in message
> > > news:bgqnp2$rinn0$1...@ID-201147.news.uni-berlin.de...
> > >
> > > > Correct. I have once heard that the first report over Unit 731 popped up in a
> > > kasutori
> > > > magazine or something in the 50s.
> > >
> > > 'Naichi ni ikiteiru saikin butai - kantougun 731 butai wo sabaku', Shinso, 6-13,
> April
> > > 1950.
> >
> > Wake me when Japanese know or care.
>
> I learned from my English teachers that when I request someone to do we have to add a
> word 'please'. Didn't you learn how to use 'please'?
Please wake me when Japanese know or care about Unit 731 one thousandth as much as they
care about the North Korean abduction issue, or as much progress made toward resolution.
masayuki yoshida
> masayuki yoshida wrote:
>
> > "Eric Takabayashi" <eta...@yahoo.co.jp> wrote in message
> > news:3F310B16...@yahoo.co.jp...
> > > masayuki yoshida wrote:
> > >
> > > > "masayuki yoshida" <ys...@yahoo.co.jp> wrote in message
> > > > news:bgqnp2$rinn0$1...@ID-201147.news.uni-berlin.de...
> > > >
> > > > > Correct. I have once heard that the first report over Unit 731 popped up in a
> > > > kasutori
> > > > > magazine or something in the 50s.
> > > >
> > > > 'Naichi ni ikiteiru saikin butai - kantougun 731 butai wo sabaku', Shinso, 6-13,
> > April
> > > > 1950.
> > >
> > > Wake me when Japanese know or care.
> >
> > I learned from my English teachers that when I request someone to do we have to add
a
> > word 'please'. Didn't you learn how to use 'please'?
>
> Please wake me when Japanese know or care about Unit 731 one thousandth as much as
they
> care about the North Korean abduction issue, or as much progress made toward
resolution.
Perhaps it is your wife's role. Or you will wake you by yourself. I don't care about
how people know anything but how I know anything.
Masayuki
Eric Takabayashi
> > Please wake me when Japanese know or care about Unit 731 one thousandth as much as
> they
> > care about the North Korean abduction issue, or as much progress made toward
> resolution.
>
> Perhaps it is your wife's role. Or you will wake you by yourself. I don't care about
> how people know anything but how I know anything.
Is such a view why you changed jobs? And how will you know, if others are silent or
secretive? WIll you go to China, tracking down survivors and government records, to
investigate the matter of Unit 731 yourself?
masayuki yoshida
> masayuki yoshida wrote:
>
> > > Please wake me when Japanese know or care about Unit 731 one thousandth as much as
> > they
> > > care about the North Korean abduction issue, or as much progress made toward
> > resolution.
> >
> > Perhaps it is your wife's role. Or you will wake you by yourself. I don't care
about
> > how people know anything but how I know anything.
>
> Is such a view why you changed jobs? And how will you know, if others are silent or
> secretive? WIll you go to China, tracking down survivors and government records, to
> investigate the matter of Unit 731 yourself?
There are lots of books on Unit 731 in Japan. People have an ability to read.
Nevertheless if they don't read some of them or want to know the history, we should
think that it is their choice. Your attitude toward people's ignorance would be sort of
paternalism. You are not a decision maker of other people.
Masayuki
Eric Takabayashi
> There are lots of books on Unit 731 in Japan.
There are a lot of books about Aug 6 and Japanese victims. There must be thousands of hours
of video about North Korea. But we can't get Japanese to shut up about how they were
victimized, then or now as regarding the North Korean abductions.
> People have an ability to read.
Same elsewhere in the world.
> Nevertheless if they don't read some of them or want to know the history, we should think
> that it is their choice.
Really. So Japanese should shut up then.
> Your attitude toward people's ignorance would be sort of
> paternalism.
Not mere ignorance. Denial. Japanese do not want to know or do not want more Japanese to
know. But they want others around the world never to forget Japanese suffering, and to
dictate foreign policy such as national defense to the rest of the world.
> You are not a decision maker of other people.
Do you feel the same when Japan is the victim? Should all Japanese and sympathizers finally
shut up about Aug 6 and the policy of foreign nations?
masayuki yoshida
> > People have an ability to read.
>
> Same elsewhere in the world.
Wake me when Johnny can read.
Masayuki
Eric Takabayashi
What happened to your it's their choice if someone is
ignorant, and you are not the decision maker for
others, policy? Or does that only apply when people
criticize Japan?
The issue is Japan and their denial when regarding
their own faults and wrongdoing (in contrast to their
loud protests when they are victimized to a much lesser
extent), not your repeated poor attempts at humor or
attempts at deflection away from Japanese denial,
faults and wrongdoing.
masayuki yoshida
> masayuki yoshida wrote:
>
> > This site (in Japanese) suggests that several books on Unit 731 were published in
the
> > 50s and 60s.
> >
> > http://www.ne.jp/asahi/net/jpn/sizimi/evils/bibliography.html
> >
> > You will be surprised at finding a mountain of references there.
>
> Whatever you say. People are still ignorant, and people still aren't telling.
How many people are still ignorant?
> > If, despite of there
> > being such rich references in Japan, many people are not familiar with the project,
> > they would be very busy in doing other things for their own living.
>
> Like bitching about North Korea when they ignored the issue for over two decades. As a
> matter of fact, there are thousands more Japanese and their descendants trapped in
North
> Korea, but despite some sparse news coverage such as of family members missing
relatives
> for FIVE decades, the public still doesn't care about them.
What books did you read for the understanding of that?
> > That is one of their choices.
>
> Like crying over 140,000 disposable pieces of paper instead.
Common phenomena in Japan or other countries.
> > I can understand that as a matter of sensitivity people don't want to
> > know about such an evil history.
>
> You mean about their OWN wrongdoing. When it comes to Japan as victim, they must never
> forget. Of course Hiroshima overshadows other mass deaths of Japanese during the war.
Whether what you are talking about is their OWN wrongdoing is dependant on political
positions. It is not a right way to view historical events only from moral points of
view.
> > To forget or to be unaware is *sometimes* the best way
> > for getting through the stress burden society.
>
> What day was today? Why are the Japanese so sensitive about today?
At war times, everyday people died.
>How much less stress it
> would be to forget or to understand such an outcome as inevitable when starting a war
> against the US.
What are you implying? I have no idea.
Masayuki
masayuki yoshida
> masayuki yoshida wrote:
>
> > > > Isn't it. How come some Japanese investigators would even know about the
> > > > existence or activities of Unit 731, not known or revealed to the public
> > > > until the 90s, fifty years ago? I should say that
> > >
> > > Um, you're gonna have to clear up these dates; did you mean the 60s? Ienaga
> > > wrote about it.
> >
> > Correct. I have once heard that the first report over Unit 731 popped up in a
kasutori
> > magazine or something in the 50s. Seiichi Morimura, mystery novelist, published a
> > documentary book on the subject, the book became a million seller in 1981 or 1982.
The
> > story of the evil experiment has been ubiquitously talked amonst Japanese ever since
> > then.
>
> So why the surprise among the general public as recently as the 90s when aged soldiers
> came forward or researchers publicized their findings and people created a traveling
> exhibit?
Can you tell me some references accessible to me?
> Why the cover-ups as when suspicious bodies found buried in mass graves in Tokyo
> are simply disposed of?
What are you talking about?
> Why the government denials? And why don't students know?
Do you mean that the goverment is Japanese one? I don't know why students don't know.
I don't care about it. Or rather, I care about why you care about why students don't
care about.
Masayuki
masayuki yoshida
> masayuki yoshida wrote:
>
> > > > People have an ability to read.
> > >
> > > Same elsewhere in the world.
> >
> > http://tinyurl.com/j6g8
> >
> > Wake me when Johnny can read.
>
> What happened to your it's their choice if someone is
> ignorant, and you are not the decision maker for
> others, policy? Or does that only apply when people
> criticize Japan?
>
> The issue is Japan and their denial when regarding
> their own faults and wrongdoing (in contrast to their
> loud protests when they are victimized to a much lesser
> extent), not your repeated poor attempts at humor or
> attempts at deflection away from Japanese denial,
> faults and wrongdoing.
See this site for example:
http://n471.hp.infoseek.co.jp/china-photo/731-butai/731-butai.html
Your ability and basic knowledge are enough for reading Japanese history in Japanese?
Masayuki
masayuki yoshida
> You see how Japanese can't stop talking about North Korea, and are so (relatively)
demanding
> over the issue? You see the difference in progress made on resolution? That is what
happens when
> Japanese actually know and care about an issue.
Tell me how what you say happens will happen.
> > It's not like Ienaga's book
> > didn't sell well in Japan in the 60s, after all.
>
> So why are Japanese still surprised en masse 30 years later?
Isn't the surprise a typical Japanese reaction?
> They hadn't. Millions of Japanese probably have picked up Oe's books since he got
> the Nobel, but still haven't actually read him.
Have you read his dull discourse?
> So why the widespread surprise? Why is it now and not three decades ago that people
> are actually afraid to travel to the Sea of Japan lest they somehow be abducted,
decades
> after the last known cases?
Whenever I read your articles, they surprise me. Why Eric's way of debate is very
similar to that of fierceful members of teacher's union?
> Do these people also know about the thousands of Japanese who accompanied returnees
> to North Korea and their descendants, suffering five decades later, but simply don't
care,
> thus no public outcry or government response even a hundredth that of the abduction
issue?
When did you start being interested in North Korea problems?
Can you make comments on this lawsuit?
http://plaza.across.or.jp/~fujimori/kin7.html
Masayuki
masayuki yoshida
news:bgqnp2$rinn0$1...@ID-201147.news.uni-berlin.de...
>
> > > existence or activities of Unit 731, not known or revealed to the public
> > > until the 90s, fifty years ago? I should say that
> >
> > Um, you're gonna have to clear up these dates; did you mean the 60s? Ienaga
> > wrote about it.
>
> Correct. I have once heard that the first report over Unit 731 popped up in a kasutori
> magazine or something in the 50s. Seiichi Morimura, mystery novelist, published a
> documentary book on the subject, the book became a million seller in 1981 or 1982.
http://tinyurl.com/jafz says:
<<Most Japanese citizens were unaware of the unit's activities until 1981, when author
Seiichi Morimura exposed the unit's dark history in a book, "The Devil's Gluttony". Many
of the unit's doctors and researchers became heads of medical and pharmaceutical firms
in post-war Japan.
The Japanese government has never formally apologized for Unit 731's activities, and did
not even admit to its existence until August 1998, when the Supreme Court ruled that the
existence of the unit was accepted in academic circles.
In 1995, families of Chinese victims filed a lawsuit demanding the Japanese government
pay compensation of 100 million yen (US$826,000)>>
Masayuki
Eric Takabayashi
> How many people are still ignorant?
Everyone reported as surprised, it would seem.
>
>
> > > If, despite of there
> > > being such rich references in Japan, many people are not familiar with the project,
> > > they would be very busy in doing other things for their own living.
> >
> > Like bitching about North Korea when they ignored the issue for over two decades. As a
> > matter of fact, there are thousands more Japanese and their descendants trapped in
> North
> > Korea, but despite some sparse news coverage such as of family members missing
> relatives
> > for FIVE decades, the public still doesn't care about them.
>
> What books did you read for the understanding of that?
I don't know there are books covering the widespread Japanese ignorance of Unit 731.
Japanese are probably ignorant of how ignorant they are. However, books such as Unit 731
Testimony written by an Australian, suggest the scope of the need for Japanese people to be
told.
> > > That is one of their choices.
> >
> > Like crying over 140,000 disposable pieces of paper instead.
>
> Common phenomena in Japan or other countries.
I know it is common in Japan, which is the country we are talking about. That is the
problem with Japan.
> > > I can understand that as a matter of sensitivity people don't want to
> > > know about such an evil history.
> >
> > You mean about their OWN wrongdoing. When it comes to Japan as victim, they must never
> > forget. Of course Hiroshima overshadows other mass deaths of Japanese during the war.
>
> Whether what you are talking about is their OWN wrongdoing is dependant on political
> positions. It is not a right way to view historical events only from moral points of
> view.
Here we go again. Strange Japan does not take such a view when they demand the rest of the
world adopt their views on WWII, nuclear arms, or any other political position Japan has or
is promoting.
> > > To forget or to be unaware is *sometimes* the best way
> > > for getting through the stress burden society.
> >
> > What day was today? Why are the Japanese so sensitive about today?
>
> At war times, everyday people died.
So why is Japanese suffering or Hiroshima special? Why don't Japanese talk about suffering
in Asia (ten times greater) the same way?
> >How much less stress it
> > would be to forget or to understand such an outcome as inevitable when starting a war
> > against the US.
>
> What are you implying? I have no idea.
I am saying you should adopt the same view toward Japan and Japanese suffering, you are
promoting for other countries and their suffering. If people are supposed to be ignorant
toward Unit 731 and the suffering they inflicted, then Japanese should feel the same way
about Japanese suffering such as the A bombings.
Eric Takabayashi
> > You see how Japanese can't stop talking about North Korea, and are so (relatively)
> demanding
> > over the issue? You see the difference in progress made on resolution? That is what
> happens when
> > Japanese actually know and care about an issue.
>
> Tell me how what you say happens will happen.
If Japanese cared about Unit 731 and the suffering they caused, the way they cared about
much less suffering caused by North Korea, the Unit 731 issue could move toward
resolution, or at least be discussed, like the abduction issue.
> > > It's not like Ienaga's book
> > > didn't sell well in Japan in the 60s, after all.
> >
> > So why are Japanese still surprised en masse 30 years later?
>
> Isn't the surprise a typical Japanese reaction?
Why are they surprised about something you claim they already have known about since the
1950s?
> > They hadn't. Millions of Japanese probably have picked up Oe's books since he got
> > the Nobel, but still haven't actually read him.
>
> Have you read his dull discourse?
Not in Japanese. And Japanese haven't read about Unit 731, either.
> > So why the widespread surprise? Why is it now and not three decades ago that people
> > are actually afraid to travel to the Sea of Japan lest they somehow be abducted,
> decades
> > after the last known cases?
>
> Whenever I read your articles, they surprise me. Why Eric's way of debate is very
> similar to that of fierceful members of teacher's union?
Irrelevant. Japanese are ignorant, despite whatever you claim about how much or how early
they knew, and thus need to be told.
> > Do these people also know about the thousands of Japanese who accompanied returnees
> > to North Korea and their descendants, suffering five decades later, but simply don't
> care,
> > thus no public outcry or government response even a hundredth that of the abduction
> issue?
>
> When did you start being interested in North Korea problems?
Ever since I found out that there was a poor harvest and widespread starvation, in the
years it was first occurring. The need for the millions of North Koreans to receive aid
to keep them alive is irrelevant to the idiocy of their own government or criminal acts
they committed, and Japan should realize that before cutting off food and other aid.
> Can you make comments on this lawsuit?
>
> http://plaza.across.or.jp/~fujimori/kin7.html
No. We're talking about Unit 731.
Eric Takabayashi
> > So why the surprise among the general public as recently as the 90s when aged soldiers
> > came forward or researchers publicized their findings and people created a traveling
> > exhibit?
>
> Can you tell me some references accessible to me?
No. Now amuse me by claiming it is not true because you have not seen it for yourself, a
common Japanese response.
> > Why the cover-ups as when suspicious bodies found buried in mass graves in Tokyo
> > are simply disposed of?
>
> What are you talking about?
You don't know about that either, or you simply won't admit it?
> > Why the government denials? And why don't students know?
>
> Do you mean that the goverment is Japanese one?
Yes, the Japanese government attempts to keep war atrocities quiet.
> I don't know why students don't know.
Because people like you haven't told them enough.
> I don't care about it.
Why not? Is this why you changed jobs?
> Or rather, I care about why you care about why students don't care about.
Why are you so apathetic about your own people and country?
Eric Takabayashi
> "Eric Takabayashi" <eta...@yahoo.co.jp> wrote in message
> news:3F312A51...@yahoo.co.jp...
> > masayuki yoshida wrote:
> >
> > > > > People have an ability to read.
> > > >
> > > > Same elsewhere in the world.
> > >
> > > http://tinyurl.com/j6g8
> > >
> > > Wake me when Johnny can read.
> >
> > What happened to your it's their choice if someone is
> > ignorant, and you are not the decision maker for
> > others, policy? Or does that only apply when people
> > criticize Japan?
> >
> > The issue is Japan and their denial when regarding
> > their own faults and wrongdoing (in contrast to their
> > loud protests when they are victimized to a much lesser
> > extent), not your repeated poor attempts at humor or
> > attempts at deflection away from Japanese denial,
> > faults and wrongdoing.
>
> See this site for example:
>
> http://n471.hp.infoseek.co.jp/china-photo/731-butai/731-butai.html
What of it? How is this relevant to the fact Japanese don't know, or the fact you don't
care if Japanese don't know about their own country and history?
> Your ability and basic knowledge are enough for reading Japanese history in Japanese?
--
Eric Takabayashi
> "masayuki yoshida" <ys...@yahoo.co.jp> wrote in message
> news:bgqnp2$rinn0$1...@ID-201147.news.uni-berlin.de...
> >
> > > > Isn't it. How come some Japanese investigators would even know about the
> > > > existence or activities of Unit 731, not known or revealed to the public
> > > > until the 90s, fifty years ago? I should say that
> > >
> > > Um, you're gonna have to clear up these dates; did you mean the 60s? Ienaga
> > > wrote about it.
> >
> > Correct. I have once heard that the first report over Unit 731 popped up in a kasutori
> > magazine or something in the 50s. Seiichi Morimura, mystery novelist, published a
> > documentary book on the subject, the book became a million seller in 1981 or 1982.
>
> http://tinyurl.com/jafz says:
>
> <<Most Japanese citizens were unaware of the unit's activities until 1981, when author
> Seiichi Morimura exposed the unit's dark history in a book, "The Devil's Gluttony". Many
> of the unit's doctors and researchers became heads of medical and pharmaceutical firms
> in post-war Japan.
Why don't you dispute this quote that "most Japanese" were ignorant before 1981, or even
later? Why don't you keep on claiming the Japanese public knew since the 1950s?
> The Japanese government has never formally apologized for Unit 731's activities,
Any disagreement from you?
> and did not even admit to its existence until August 1998,
Any disagreement from you?
> when the Supreme Court ruled that the
> existence of the unit was accepted in academic circles.
My goodness. As recently as 1998, it was necessary for the Supreme Court to decide that even
just among ACADEMICS, was the mere EXISTENCE of Unit 731 "accepted" (as opposed to FACT
known and accepted by the Japanese public).
Please, Masayuki, Mike, or anyone else, please, please, tell us all about how much Japanese
know about the Unit 731 issue since the1950s.
> In 1995, families of Chinese victims filed a lawsuit demanding the Japanese government
> pay compensation of 100 million yen (US$826,000)>>
--
mtfe...@netscape.net
> mtfe...@netscape.net wrote:
>> Could you define this a bit more tightly?
> You see how Japanese can't stop talking about North Korea, and are so (relatively) demanding
> over the issue? You see the difference in progress made on resolution? That is what happens when
> Japanese actually know and care about an issue.
Right. Hardly surprising that the issue of an unstable nuclear power within
spitting distance of them, who's made threats to turn a major city into
"a sea of fire" takes precedence over something that happened 60-odd years
ago, IMO?
>> It's not like Ienaga's book
>> didn't sell well in Japan in the 60s, after all.
> So why are Japanese still surprised en masse 30 years later?
I dunno. Why hadn't YOU heard of it? God knows I've posted enough about
it.
>> Again, I haven't heard of "mass-graves" in Tokyo.
>> > So a book about Unit 731 became a "million" seller in 1982. Gotai Fumanzoku became about a
>>
>> And yet you stated that people hadn't heard about this in the 90s...
> They hadn't.
Nor you, apparently, given what you've posted.
>> Actually, from what I gather, the abduction issue (if you're talking about
>> the N K abductions of Japanese) was well-known among people living on Ura-
>> nihon,
> So why the widespread surprise?
Because NK actually ADMITTED it, is my guess.
> Why is it now and not three decades ago that people are actually
> afraid to travel to the Sea of Japan lest they somehow be abducted, decades after the last known
Uh, as I've stated, the people in the area had known of it for awhile.
> Do these people also know about the thousands of Japanese who accompanied returnees to North
> Korea and their descendants, suffering five decades later, but simply don't care, thus no public
> outcry or government response even a hundredth that of the abduction issue?
Hmm, considering I've seen that on NHK, I'd say some of them do.
>> > know or care about the THOUSANDS of OTHER Japanese still not back from the war era, and NOT
>>
>> Thousands? Maybe, but they'd be at least 59 by now, and no longer Japanese.
> What, you don't know about the Japanese in North Korea for five decades either? You put no faith
I know there are some.
As I said, after 6 generations, they aren't Japanese anymore.
>> Which might point out that the problem with the Japanese government is more
>> one of motivation and laziness than one of malicious cover-up.
> Why is not important.
Actually, Mr Takabayashi, if you are trying to take action against something,
"why" is VITALLY important.
>> I dunno; the German people are no longer "offended" by the actions of the
>> Nazis, though they don't support them.
> The issue is not Germany;
The issue is things that happened decades ago. The cases are quite similar.
Similarly, I doubt people in Russia are much "offended" by Stalin.
>> Simply, it was part of a history
>> from a couple decades ago, and they don't feel enough of an emotional
>> connection to feel "offended".
> Though I do wonder how much responsibility the German public feels for WWII instead of merely
> blaming it on Hitler and the SS or some Nazis, as if they appeared and came to power from
> nowhere.
I've pointed this out before; why not simply read the introduction to
Shirer's book yourself, this time?
>> Again, what would you mean by "resolved"?
> For example, see the demands Japanese (the public or government) make regarding the decades old
> abduction issue, and contrast that to what Japan has done regarding Japanese war atrocities.
That's not the question; the question was "what would you mean by
resolved?"
Mike
mtfe...@netscape.net
> masayuki yoshida wrote:
>> > You see how Japanese can't stop talking about North Korea, and are so (relatively)
>> demanding
>> > over the issue? You see the difference in progress made on resolution? That is what
>> happens when
>> > Japanese actually know and care about an issue.
>>
>> Tell me how what you say happens will happen.
> If Japanese cared about Unit 731 and the suffering they caused, the way they cared about
> much less suffering caused by North Korea, the Unit 731 issue could move toward
> resolution, or at least be discussed, like the abduction issue.
Again, could you define "resolution", here?
Mike
mtfe...@netscape.net
> "Eric Takabayashi" <eta...@yahoo.co.jp> wrote in message
> There are lots of books on Unit 731 in Japan. People have an ability to read.
So, NOW your complaint is NOT that things are covered up, but that people
aren't interested in what you think they SHOULD be interested????
Mike
mtfe...@netscape.net
>> > So why the surprise among the general public as recently as the 90s when aged soldiers
>> > came forward or researchers publicized their findings and people created a traveling
>> > exhibit?
>>
>> I dunno; the Asahi Shimbun was publishing various letters from it readers
>> which included letters from soldiers supposedly involved in turning
>> people over for experimentation.
> Look at how much respect "letters from readers" gets.
Mr Takabayashi, you profess indignation that "the general public" of Japan
knows nothing of these issues. Now, finding evidence to the contrary (Asahi
IS, after all, a MAJOR Japanese newspaper), you downplay the significance
of the media, which is undoubtedly where you first received your impression
about the relative ignorance of the public.
Do we see a contradiction here?
>> There's a volume in English (a distillation
>> of a two-volume set still available in Japanese) called "Senso". The letters
>> dated from the early 80s, and an Asahi reporter was shot-gunned to death
>> in an attempt to halt publication of those letters, it seems.
> Too bad so much trouble is not taken to resolve war issues, instead of cover them up, yes?
???
You use the word "resolve" in such a fashion that I suspect you do not really
know what you mean by it. And if by "cover them up", you mean "publish
accounts of them in large newspapers, in books that generate publicity
in court cases over the course of decades, and have PMs publically
apologize to the point where right-wingers drive vans into the Diet
building", well, we agree, but I suspect you are using non-standard
definitions.
>> Mass graves in Tokyo? Of people killed by 731? That's news to me?
> No surprise, as it was clumsily covered up. If not for the efforts of some group to try to
> prevent the government from destroying the bodies (which it did), we never would have heard
> of it in the first place.
OK, so, can you DESCRIBE these mass-graves of the victims of Unit 731
in Tokyo, please?
>> And a cynic might point out that the Japanese government's
>> decades-long series of denials might simply be a foreshadowing of the
>> current (ie, last 10-odd years) US government's "spin-doctoring".
> I no longer bother attempting to defend actions or policies of the US.
And I am merely pointing out that this appears to be a human, not Japanese,
problem.
>> Why don't students know? I dunno; I keep hearing most American students
>> couldn't find Iraq on a map,
> That is hardly what is important regarding the war in Iraq.
OK, then what is your point?
Mike
Eric Takabayashi
> Eric Takabayashi <eta...@yahoo.co.jp> wrote:
> > mtfe...@netscape.net wrote:
>
> >> Could you define this a bit more tightly?
>
> > You see how Japanese can't stop talking about North Korea, and are so (relatively) demanding
> > over the issue? You see the difference in progress made on resolution? That is what happens when
> > Japanese actually know and care about an issue.
>
> Right. Hardly surprising that the issue of an unstable nuclear power within
> spitting distance of them,
That is not the issue to the Japanese, the fate of 13 abductees and their children is.
> who's made threats to turn a major city into
> "a sea of fire" takes precedence over something that happened 60-odd years
> ago, IMO?
The only reason time passed without resolution, is because the Japanese did not do anything about it
then.
> >> It's not like Ienaga's book
> >> didn't sell well in Japan in the 60s, after all.
>
> > So why are Japanese still surprised en masse 30 years later?
>
> I dunno. Why hadn't YOU heard of it?
I do know Japanese are surprised even now. Masayuki has kindly found a cite that it was necessary for
the Supreme Court to rule in 1998 that the very EXISTENCE of Unit 731 was "accepted" by ACADEMICS.
> God knows I've posted enough about it.
And Japanese still don't know.
> >> Again, I haven't heard of "mass-graves" in Tokyo.
>
> >> > So a book about Unit 731 became a "million" seller in 1982. Gotai Fumanzoku became about a
> >>
> >> And yet you stated that people hadn't heard about this in the 90s...
>
> > They hadn't.
>
> Nor you, apparently, given what you've posted.
I am not the one who needs to be told more about Unit 731.
> >> Actually, from what I gather, the abduction issue (if you're talking about
> >> the N K abductions of Japanese) was well-known among people living on Ura-
> >> nihon,
>
> > So why the widespread surprise?
>
> Because NK actually ADMITTED it, is my guess.
No, people are surprised because they found out.
> > Why is it now and not three decades ago that people are actually
> > afraid to travel to the Sea of Japan lest they somehow be abducted, decades after the last known
>
> Uh, as I've stated, the people in the area had known of it for awhile.
And what of the other Japanese, you know, the vast majority who live elsewhere?
> > Do these people also know about the thousands of Japanese who accompanied returnees to North
> > Korea and their descendants, suffering five decades later, but simply don't care, thus no public
> > outcry or government response even a hundredth that of the abduction issue?
>
> Hmm, considering I've seen that on NHK, I'd say some of them do.
I know the Japanese people and government doesn't care about them like the abductees.
> >> > know or care about the THOUSANDS of OTHER Japanese still not back from the war era, and NOT
> >>
> >> Thousands? Maybe, but they'd be at least 59 by now, and no longer Japanese.
>
> > What, you don't know about the Japanese in North Korea for five decades either? You put no faith
>
> I know there are some.
I know there are thousands, if they are still alive.
> As I said, after 6 generations, they aren't Japanese anymore.
I am referring to the Japanese trapped in North Korea by the war, or who accompanied Koreans to North
Korea after the war, not six generations ago.
> >> Which might point out that the problem with the Japanese government is more
> >> one of motivation and laziness than one of malicious cover-up.
>
> > Why is not important.
>
> Actually, Mr Takabayashi, if you are trying to take action against something,
> "why" is VITALLY important.
Why is it relevant?
> >> I dunno; the German people are no longer "offended" by the actions of the
> >> Nazis, though they don't support them.
>
> > The issue is not Germany;
>
> The issue is things that happened decades ago.
The only reasons decades have passed is because Japan didn't resolve their issues sooner. Japanese
don't think of Hiroshima or their own suffering as merely something "that happened decades ago".
> The cases are quite similar.
No, they are not. Germany's legal and political stance are quite different from that of Japan.
> Similarly, I doubt people in Russia are much "offended" by Stalin.
Yet Japanese continue to whine about how they suffered in the war, or about the nuclear issue today.
What a difference.
> >> Simply, it was part of a history
> >> from a couple decades ago, and they don't feel enough of an emotional
> >> connection to feel "offended".
>
> > Though I do wonder how much responsibility the German public feels for WWII instead of merely
> > blaming it on Hitler and the SS or some Nazis, as if they appeared and came to power from
> > nowhere.
>
> I've pointed this out before; why not simply read the introduction to
> Shirer's book yourself, this time?
>
> >> Again, what would you mean by "resolved"?
>
> > For example, see the demands Japanese (the public or government) make regarding the decades old
> > abduction issue, and contrast that to what Japan has done regarding Japanese war atrocities.
>
> That's not the question; the question was "what would you mean by
> resolved?"
Japan should pay survivors and their families, those responsible punished by courts of law, and the
issue should be "explained", similar to what Japanese would like done regarding the abduction issue.
--
"This is the best book I've ever read! Even though I've only read one, it is by far the best in the
world."
- A 12 year old reader from California, CA USA
Eric Takabayashi
Prosecute, punish, and compensate. And reveal all they know.
--
"This is the best book I've ever read! Even though I've only read one, it is by far the best
in the world."
- A 12-year old reader from California, CA USA
Eric Takabayashi
> Eric Takabayashi <eta...@yahoo.co.jp> wrote:
> > mtfe...@netscape.net wrote:
>
> >> > So why the surprise among the general public as recently as the 90s when aged soldiers
> >> > came forward or researchers publicized their findings and people created a traveling
> >> > exhibit?
> >>
> >> I dunno; the Asahi Shimbun was publishing various letters from it readers
> >> which included letters from soldiers supposedly involved in turning
> >> people over for experimentation.
>
> > Look at how much respect "letters from readers" gets.
>
> Mr Takabayashi, you profess indignation that "the general public" of Japan
> knows nothing of these issues.
No, I didn't.
> Now, finding evidence to the contrary (Asahi
> IS, after all, a MAJOR Japanese newspaper), you downplay the significance
> of the media,
No, see this group itself for what is thought of local letters to the papers.
> which is undoubtedly where you first received your impression
> about the relative ignorance of the public.
>
> Do we see a contradiction here?
No, because I never claimed Japanese knew nothing.
> >> There's a volume in English (a distillation
> >> of a two-volume set still available in Japanese) called "Senso". The letters
> >> dated from the early 80s, and an Asahi reporter was shot-gunned to death
> >> in an attempt to halt publication of those letters, it seems.
>
> > Too bad so much trouble is not taken to resolve war issues, instead of cover them up, yes?
>
> ???
>
> You use the word "resolve" in such a fashion that I suspect you do not really
> know what you mean by it. And if by "cover them up", you mean "publish
> accounts of them in large newspapers, in books that generate publicity
> in court cases over the course of decades,
The government did that?
> and have PMs publically
> apologize
Define apologize, or for what.
> to the point where right-wingers drive vans into the Diet
> building", well, we agree, but I suspect you are using non-standard
> definitions.
Nope.
> >> Mass graves in Tokyo? Of people killed by 731? That's news to me?
>
> > No surprise, as it was clumsily covered up. If not for the efforts of some group to try to
> > prevent the government from destroying the bodies (which it did), we never would have heard
> > of it in the first place.
>
> OK, so, can you DESCRIBE these mass-graves of the victims of Unit 731
> in Tokyo, please?
Nope.
> >> And a cynic might point out that the Japanese government's
> >> decades-long series of denials might simply be a foreshadowing of the
> >> current (ie, last 10-odd years) US government's "spin-doctoring".
>
> > I no longer bother attempting to defend actions or policies of the US.
>
> And I am merely pointing out that this appears to be a human, not Japanese,
> problem.
No, you are for some reason using the US to explain or excuse the Japanese lack of response.
> >> Why don't students know? I dunno; I keep hearing most American students
> >> couldn't find Iraq on a map,
>
> > That is hardly what is important regarding the war in Iraq.
>
> OK, then what is your point?
We don't need to find Iraq on a map for any issues in Iraq to be resolved.
Eric Takabayashi
> masayuki yoshida <ys...@yahoo.co.jp> wrote:
>
> > "Eric Takabayashi" <eta...@yahoo.co.jp> wrote in message
>
> > There are lots of books on Unit 731 in Japan. People have an ability to read.
>
> So, NOW your complaint is NOT that things are covered up,
They are being covered up, until the government comes clean and opens up those
files, and reveals what was lost and destroyed.
> but that people aren't interested in what you think they SHOULD be interested????
Not what I think they should be interested in, but what they really should be
interested in.
mtfe...@netscape.net
>> >> Could you define this a bit more tightly?
>>
>> > You see how Japanese can't stop talking about North Korea, and are so (relatively) demanding
>> > over the issue? You see the difference in progress made on resolution? That is what happens when
>> > Japanese actually know and care about an issue.
>> Right. Hardly surprising that the issue of an unstable nuclear power within
>> spitting distance of them,
> That is not the issue to the Japanese, the fate of 13 abductees and their children is.
OK, I guess NHK is reporting it to me all wrong...
>> who's made threats to turn a major city into
>> "a sea of fire" takes precedence over something that happened 60-odd years
>> ago, IMO?
> The only reason time passed without resolution, is because the Japanese did not do anything about it
> then.
OK, what do you suggest they do? Declare war?
>> >> It's not like Ienaga's book
>> >> didn't sell well in Japan in the 60s, after all.
>> > So why are Japanese still surprised en masse 30 years later?
>>
>> I dunno. Why hadn't YOU heard of it?
> I do know Japanese are surprised even now.
Which wasn't my question.
The was out for decades, and highly controversial. Being controversial,
it generated a lot of publicity. The decades-long lawsuit generated more.
Asahi Shimbun published first-hand accounts of some of the incidents from
time-to-time. Yet, you rip the Japanese people for not having heard of
this; a bit odd, don't you think?
> Masayuki has kindly found a cite that it was necessary for
> the Supreme Court to rule in 1998 that the very EXISTENCE of Unit 731 was "accepted" by ACADEMICS.
Actually, I know of no attempt to deny the existance of the unit by any
government official agency in the last few decades. I DO know they wanted
to keep it out of school texts, and that Ienaga won his court case when
the Supreme Court ruled that Monbusho couldn't censor an accepted text
which contained such descriptions.
>> God knows I've posted enough about it.
> And Japanese still don't know.
Neither do you? So, is there something wrong with you, or just them?
>> >> Again, I haven't heard of "mass-graves" in Tokyo.
>>
>> > They hadn't.
>>
>> Nor you, apparently, given what you've posted.
> I am not the one who needs to be told more about Unit 731.
OK, ONE MORE TIME:
WHERE are these mass-graves in Tokyo for the 731 victims? (Not to mention,
why would they ship the corpses from China to the capitol?)
>> > So why the widespread surprise?
>>
>> Because NK actually ADMITTED it, is my guess.
> No, people are surprised because they found out.
I dunno what to tell you; my wife has a friend from Niigata, and they
apparently knew about it for some time...
>> > Why is it now and not three decades ago that people are actually
>> > afraid to travel to the Sea of Japan lest they somehow be abducted, decades after the last known
>>
>> Uh, as I've stated, the people in the area had known of it for awhile.
> And what of the other Japanese, you know, the vast majority who live elsewhere?
I can really only speak of Kochi recently, but the people I ran into in
Tokyo, or at least a few of them, seemed to know.
>> > Do these people also know about the thousands of Japanese who accompanied returnees to North
>> > Korea and their descendants, suffering five decades later, but simply don't care, thus no public
>> > outcry or government response even a hundredth that of the abduction issue?
>> Hmm, considering I've seen that on NHK, I'd say some of them do.
> I know the Japanese people and government doesn't care about them like the abductees.
>> >> Thousands? Maybe, but they'd be at least 59 by now, and no longer Japanese.
>>
>> > What, you don't know about the Japanese in North Korea for five decades either? You put no faith
>>
>> I know there are some.
> I know there are thousands, if they are still alive.
And a good number in China as well.
BTW, you really, really should get ahold of that Asahi compendium.
>> As I said, after 6 generations, they aren't Japanese anymore.
> I am referring to the Japanese trapped in North Korea by the war, or who accompanied Koreans to North
> Korea after the war, not six generations ago.
Pardon me, I meant 6 decades.
>> Actually, Mr Takabayashi, if you are trying to take action against something,
>> "why" is VITALLY important.
> Why is it relevant?
Uh, because if you have no idea why something is happening, most likely
you are never going to be able to do something about it.
>> > The issue is not Germany;
>>
>> The issue is things that happened decades ago.
> The only reasons decades have passed is because Japan didn't resolve their issues sooner. Japanese
Decades pass regardless of what we do with them. Natural laws and all that.
Now, what is "resolved" in Germany, that is not in Japan?
Be VERY precise for me, please.
>> The cases are quite similar.
> No, they are not. Germany's legal and political stance are quite different from that of Japan.
Explain in detail.
>> Similarly, I doubt people in Russia are much "offended" by Stalin.
> Yet Japanese continue to whine about how they suffered in the war, or about the nuclear issue today.
> What a difference.
You don't know too many Germans, do you?
Ask some of them from the territory that is now Poland...
>> That's not the question; the question was "what would you mean by
>> resolved?"
> Japan should pay survivors and their families, those responsible punished by courts of law, and the
> issue should be "explained", similar to what Japanese would like done regarding the abduction issue.
You really should read Shirer's book, Mr Takabayashi...
Mike
mtfe...@netscape.net
>> Eric Takabayashi <eta...@yahoo.co.jp> wrote:
>> > mtfe...@netscape.net wrote:
>>
>> >> > So why the surprise among the general public as recently as the 90s when aged soldiers
>> >> > came forward or researchers publicized their findings and people created a traveling
>> >> > exhibit?
>> >>
>> >> I dunno; the Asahi Shimbun was publishing various letters from it readers
>> >> which included letters from soldiers supposedly involved in turning
>> >> people over for experimentation.
>>
>> > Look at how much respect "letters from readers" gets.
>>
>> Mr Takabayashi, you profess indignation that "the general public" of Japan
>> knows nothing of these issues.
> No, I didn't.
Then what have you been ranting for for the past 20-30 posts, with your
constant refrain of "they don't know anything about it, why don't they
know?", etc?
Just color commentary?
>> Now, finding evidence to the contrary (Asahi
>> IS, after all, a MAJOR Japanese newspaper), you downplay the significance
>> of the media,
> No, see this group itself for what is thought of local letters to the papers.
I'm sorry; I'm supposed to look at the cyber-musings of a bunch of ex-pats
and ex-ex-pats for what they think of Japanese writings in national
newspapers, is that correct?
So sorry, I fail to see how anything they say could refute the fact that
ACCOUNTS of the incidents have been printed in national media.
>> which is undoubtedly where you first received your impression
>> about the relative ignorance of the public.
>>
>> Do we see a contradiction here?
> No, because I never claimed Japanese knew nothing.
So, you claim they know about it, but...
OK, you've lost me. You've claimed several times the general public knew
nothing of (eg) Unit 731, about now you claim that you never claimed that?
You use words in a way completely at odds with more accepted usages, Mr
Takabayashi.
>> You use the word "resolve" in such a fashion that I suspect you do not really
>> know what you mean by it. And if by "cover them up", you mean "publish
>> accounts of them in large newspapers, in books that generate publicity
>> in court cases over the course of decades,
> The government did that?
Again, what do you mean by "resolve"?
>> and have PMs publically
>> apologize
> Define apologize, or for what.
Well, lessee; invading and inflicting harm upon their neighbors, Murayama
actually mentioned medical experiments, etc.
>> to the point where right-wingers drive vans into the Diet
>> building", well, we agree, but I suspect you are using non-standard
>> definitions.
> Nope.
Then you don't follow the media.
>> >> Mass graves in Tokyo? Of people killed by 731? That's news to me?
>>
>> > No surprise, as it was clumsily covered up. If not for the efforts of some group to try to
>> > prevent the government from destroying the bodies (which it did), we never would have heard
>> > of it in the first place.
>>
>> OK, so, can you DESCRIBE these mass-graves of the victims of Unit 731
>> in Tokyo, please?
> Nope.
I see; is this a secret between you and someone else, or what?
>> And I am merely pointing out that this appears to be a human, not Japanese,
>> problem.
> No, you are for some reason using the US to explain or excuse the Japanese lack of response.
(Where were you when Yoshida-san and I were ripping into each other on these
issues?) No, I am using the US to point out that the fact that the Japanese
haven't done something to your liking doesn't indicate anything special
about the Japanese.
I am also pointing out to you that you seem quite ignorant of things which
have appeared in the media of the course of the years, and that as such,
your protestations seem hollow: information has been made available, yet
you claim not to have seen it.
Somehow, though, the Japanese people are to blame...
>> > That is hardly what is important regarding the war in Iraq.
>>
>> OK, then what is your point?
> We don't need to find Iraq on a map for any issues in Iraq to be resolved.
You use the word "resolved" in such a way that I begin to suspect you
grew up in Marin County, not Hawaii....
Mike
mtfe...@netscape.net
>> > If Japanese cared about Unit 731 and the suffering they caused, the way they cared about
>> > much less suffering caused by North Korea, the Unit 731 issue could move toward
>> > resolution, or at least be discussed, like the abduction issue.
>>
>> Again, could you define "resolution", here?
> Prosecute, punish, and compensate. And reveal all they know.
So, they should punish people pardoned by the US?
Mike
mtfe...@netscape.net
>> > There are lots of books on Unit 731 in Japan. People have an ability to read.
>>
>> So, NOW your complaint is NOT that things are covered up,
> They are being covered up, until the government comes clean and opens up those
> files, and reveals what was lost and destroyed.
What would they reveal? That Unit 731 existed? Done. That they performed
medical experiments on humans? Done.
What else?
>> but that people aren't interested in what you think they SHOULD be interested????
> Not what I think they should be interested in, but what they really should be
> interested in.
Defined by...?
Sorry, why should they really be interested in this?
And please provide me a reference about these mass-graves in Tokyo.
Pretty please?
Mike
Eric Takabayashi
> Eric Takabayashi <eta...@yahoo.co.jp> wrote:
> > mtfe...@netscape.net wrote:
>
> >> >> Could you define this a bit more tightly?
> >>
> >> > You see how Japanese can't stop talking about North Korea, and are so (relatively) demanding
> >> > over the issue? You see the difference in progress made on resolution? That is what happens when
> >> > Japanese actually know and care about an issue.
>
> >> Right. Hardly surprising that the issue of an unstable nuclear power within
> >> spitting distance of them,
>
> > That is not the issue to the Japanese, the fate of 13 abductees and their children is.
>
> OK, I guess NHK is reporting it to me all wrong...
No, perhaps you are watching them wrong. Perhaps you don't see how bringing "back" the children to Japan
is a precondition to normalization talks. For the US and others, of course the nuclear issue is the
precondition.
> >> who's made threats to turn a major city into
> >> "a sea of fire" takes precedence over something that happened 60-odd years
> >> ago, IMO?
>
> > The only reason time passed without resolution, is because the Japanese did not do anything about it
> > then.
>
> OK, what do you suggest they do? Declare war?
Japan should have resolved the war issue then, and I do not mean San Francisco Peace Treaty that they
always use to avoid taking responsibility, and Japan would not have the war era historical problems they
have today.
> >> >> It's not like Ienaga's book
> >> >> didn't sell well in Japan in the 60s, after all.
>
> >> > So why are Japanese still surprised en masse 30 years later?
> >>
> >> I dunno. Why hadn't YOU heard of it?
>
> > I do know Japanese are surprised even now.
>
> Which wasn't my question.
>
> The was out for decades, and highly controversial.
And Japanese still don't know.
> Being controversial, it generated a lot of publicity.
So you say. And Japanese still don't know.
> The decades-long lawsuit generated more.
> Asahi Shimbun published first-hand accounts of some of the incidents from
> time-to-time. Yet, you rip the Japanese people for not having heard of
> this; a bit odd, don't you think?
No, because Japanese don't know.
> > Masayuki has kindly found a cite that it was necessary for
> > the Supreme Court to rule in 1998 that the very EXISTENCE of Unit 731 was "accepted" by ACADEMICS.
>
> Actually, I know of no attempt to deny the existance of the unit by any
> government official agency in the last few decades.
So why was it 1998, when the government made the admission?
> I DO know they wanted to keep it out of school texts,
That could be called a coverup.
> and that Ienaga won his court case when
> the Supreme Court ruled that Monbusho couldn't censor an accepted text
> which contained such descriptions.
>
> >> God knows I've posted enough about it.
>
> > And Japanese still don't know.
>
> Neither do you?
I know. Japanese don't.
> So, is there something wrong with you, or just them?
Japan's unresolved war issues and their apathy and ignorance about them, are a problem about them, not me.
> >> >> Again, I haven't heard of "mass-graves" in Tokyo.
> >>
> >> > They hadn't.
> >>
> >> Nor you, apparently, given what you've posted.
>
> > I am not the one who needs to be told more about Unit 731.
>
> OK, ONE MORE TIME:
>
> WHERE are these mass-graves in Tokyo for the 731 victims?
Why don't you admit you don't know?
> (Not to mention,
> why would they ship the corpses from China to the capitol?)
To study. Also, they were reportedly not all dead.
> >> > So why the widespread surprise?
> >>
> >> Because NK actually ADMITTED it, is my guess.
>
> > No, people are surprised because they found out.
>
> I dunno what to tell you; my wife has a friend from Niigata, and they
> apparently knew about it for some time...
Nice to know your wife's friend represents the Japanese public, the millions who don't know.
> >> > Why is it now and not three decades ago that people are actually
> >> > afraid to travel to the Sea of Japan lest they somehow be abducted, decades after the last known
> >>
> >> Uh, as I've stated, the people in the area had known of it for awhile.
>
> > And what of the other Japanese, you know, the vast majority who live elsewhere?
>
> I can really only speak of Kochi recently, but the people I ran into in
> Tokyo, or at least a few of them, seemed to know.
A few. I am talking about the Japanese public.
> >> > Do these people also know about the thousands of Japanese who accompanied returnees to North
> >> > Korea and their descendants, suffering five decades later, but simply don't care, thus no public
> >> > outcry or government response even a hundredth that of the abduction issue?
>
> >> Hmm, considering I've seen that on NHK, I'd say some of them do.
>
> > I know the Japanese people and government doesn't care about them like the abductees.
I forgot to mention they also don't know. Please give me your own estimate of war era and post war
Japanese in North Korea coverage vs. the almost everyday coverage of the abduction issue for nearly a
year. Just of what I've seen, I doubt it's 1:100.
> >> >> Thousands? Maybe, but they'd be at least 59 by now, and no longer Japanese.
> >>
> >> > What, you don't know about the Japanese in North Korea for five decades either? You put no faith
> >>
> >> I know there are some.
>
> > I know there are thousands, if they are still alive.
>
> And a good number in China as well.
I know. But we are talking about North Korea.
> BTW, you really, really should get ahold of that Asahi compendium.
>
> >> As I said, after 6 generations, they aren't Japanese anymore.
>
> > I am referring to the Japanese trapped in North Korea by the war, or who accompanied Koreans to North
> > Korea after the war, not six generations ago.
>
> Pardon me, I meant 6 decades.
Did you ask them if they considered themselves Japanese or not (regardless of the fact they are still
legally Japanese or not) or if they would not like to return to the country of their or their parents'
birth instead? As you can see, Japanese are returning from China (and a few making it from North Korea)
even now.
> >> Actually, Mr Takabayashi, if you are trying to take action against something,
> >> "why" is VITALLY important.
>
> > Why is it relevant?
>
> Uh, because if you have no idea why something is happening, most likely
> you are never going to be able to do something about it.
Why would not knowing stop people from ending Japanese ignorance of wartime issues? If Japanese schools
spent more time on it, and the government changed their views and policies, it would be handled.
> >> > The issue is not Germany;
> >>
> >> The issue is things that happened decades ago.
>
> > The only reasons decades have passed is because Japan didn't resolve their issues sooner. Japanese
>
> Decades pass regardless of what we do with them. Natural laws and all that.
>
> Now, what is "resolved" in Germany, that is not in Japan?
>
> Be VERY precise for me, please.
Responsibility for wartime actions.
> >> The cases are quite similar.
>
> > No, they are not. Germany's legal and political stance are quite different from that of Japan.
>
> Explain in detail.
Are you being funny? Japanese are permitted to publicly deny wartime actions and responsibility, as well
as promote wartime or warlike views.
> >> Similarly, I doubt people in Russia are much "offended" by Stalin.
>
> > Yet Japanese continue to whine about how they suffered in the war, or about the nuclear issue today.
> > What a difference.
>
> You don't know too many Germans, do you?
None. But the issue is Japan.
> Ask some of them from the territory that is now Poland...
>
> >> That's not the question; the question was "what would you mean by
> >> resolved?"
>
> > Japan should pay survivors and their families, those responsible punished by courts of law, and the
> > issue should be "explained", similar to what Japanese would like done regarding the abduction issue.
>
> You really should read Shirer's book, Mr Takabayashi...
Is it about Japan?
--
"This is the best book I've ever read! Even though I've only read one, it is by far the best in the
world."
- A 12-year old reader from California, CA USA
Eric Takabayashi
> >> Mr Takabayashi, you profess indignation that "the general public" of Japan
> >> knows nothing of these issues.
>
> > No, I didn't.
>
> Then what have you been ranting for for the past 20-30 posts, with your
> constant refrain of "they don't know anything about it, why don't they
> know?", etc?
>
> Just color commentary?
I didn't say and don't believe that they don't know anything. But it's true they don't know.
> >> Now, finding evidence to the contrary (Asahi
> >> IS, after all, a MAJOR Japanese newspaper), you downplay the significance
> >> of the media,
>
> > No, see this group itself for what is thought of local letters to the papers.
>
> I'm sorry; I'm supposed to look at the cyber-musings of a bunch of ex-pats
> and ex-ex-pats for what they think of Japanese writings in national
> newspapers, is that correct?
It would give you an indication that you shouldn't put much stock in the simple fact something
makes the letters to the paper.
> So sorry, I fail to see how anything they say could refute the fact that
> ACCOUNTS of the incidents have been printed in national media.
They could say, Japanese don't know, because they don't. An Amazon search could show you how hits
on Unit 731 or the 731 butai are vastly in the US' favor, literal hundreds more, but would you
believe that means the American general public knows about 731, or the relation to American
biological warfare?
> >> which is undoubtedly where you first received your impression
> >> about the relative ignorance of the public.
> >>
> >> Do we see a contradiction here?
>
> > No, because I never claimed Japanese knew nothing.
>
> So, you claim they know about it, but...
>
> OK, you've lost me. You've claimed several times the general public knew
> nothing of (eg) Unit 731, about now you claim that you never claimed that?
Because I didn't claim and don't believe that they know nothing.
> You use words in a way completely at odds with more accepted usages, Mr
> Takabayashi.
Nope. "Don't know" doesn't mean nothing, nor does it refer only to simple knowledge of, though it
is true Japanese do not have knowledge of Unit 731 and their activities.
> >> You use the word "resolve" in such a fashion that I suspect you do not really
> >> know what you mean by it. And if by "cover them up", you mean "publish
> >> accounts of them in large newspapers, in books that generate publicity
> >> in court cases over the course of decades,
>
> > The government did that?
>
> Again, what do you mean by "resolve"?
Just what the dictionary says:
http://www.onelook.com/?w=resolve&ls=b
Also see "know"
http://www.onelook.com/?w=know&ls=b
> >> and have PMs publically
> >> apologize
>
> > Define apologize, or for what.
>
> Well, lessee; invading and inflicting harm upon their neighbors, Murayama
> actually mentioned medical experiments, etc.
Define "apologize" according to their usage. Also tell us what happened to PMs who made admission
of Japanese wrongdoing before Koizumi, as opposed to say, when Clinton and Bush make their
statements about slavery of Africans.
> >> to the point where right-wingers drive vans into the Diet
> >> building", well, we agree, but I suspect you are using non-standard
> >> definitions.
>
> > Nope.
>
> Then you don't follow the media.
Yes I do. And Japanese still don't know.
> >> >> Mass graves in Tokyo? Of people killed by 731? That's news to me?
> >>
> >> > No surprise, as it was clumsily covered up. If not for the efforts of some group to try to
> >> > prevent the government from destroying the bodies (which it did), we never would have heard
> >> > of it in the first place.
> >>
> >> OK, so, can you DESCRIBE these mass-graves of the victims of Unit 731
> >> in Tokyo, please?
>
> > Nope.
>
> I see; is this a secret between you and someone else, or what?
No, it's a secret of the Japanese government.
> >> And I am merely pointing out that this appears to be a human, not Japanese,
> >> problem.
>
> > No, you are for some reason using the US to explain or excuse the Japanese lack of response.
>
> (Where were you when Yoshida-san and I were ripping into each other on these
> issues?)
I don't know.
> No, I am using the US to point out that the fact that the Japanese
> haven't done something to your liking doesn't indicate anything special
> about the Japanese.
>
> I am also pointing out to you that you seem quite ignorant of things which
> have appeared in the media of the course of the years,
Why does simple appearance in the media, and I have seen Unit 731 and the issue of Japanese who
have not returned since the war in Japanese, in Japanese mainstream media, mean to you or Masayuki,
that the Japanese public knows, when they don't? Why don't you quiz them on it? Even Masayuki who
knows must look up his cites or quotes.
> and that as such,
> your protestations seem hollow: information has been made available, yet
> you claim not to have seen it.
I claim not to have seen what? It is the Japanese who have not seen and do not know.
> Somehow, though, the Japanese people are to blame...
>
> >> > That is hardly what is important regarding the war in Iraq.
> >>
> >> OK, then what is your point?
>
> > We don't need to find Iraq on a map for any issues in Iraq to be resolved.
>
> You use the word "resolved" in such a way that I begin to suspect you
> grew up in Marin County, not Hawaii....
>
> Mike
--
Eric Takabayashi
> Eric Takabayashi <eta...@yahoo.co.jp> wrote:
> > mtfe...@netscape.net wrote:
>
> >> > There are lots of books on Unit 731 in Japan. People have an ability to read.
> >>
> >> So, NOW your complaint is NOT that things are covered up,
>
> > They are being covered up, until the government comes clean and opens up those
> > files, and reveals what was lost and destroyed.
>
> What would they reveal? That Unit 731 existed? Done. That they performed
> medical experiments on humans? Done.
>
> What else?
Give us the details, like the way they drag out new details about Hiroshima even now.
Handle the Unit 731 and other wartime issues, the way they want the problems with North
Korea handled, up to and including prosecuting those responsible decades later.
> >> but that people aren't interested in what you think they SHOULD be interested????
>
> > Not what I think they should be interested in, but what they really should be
> > interested in.
>
> Defined by...?
Fact.
> Sorry, why should they really be interested in this?
Because it's their history, and their view of history is one sided.
> And please provide me a reference about these mass-graves in Tokyo.
>
> Pretty please?
Nope.
Eric Takabayashi
masayuki yoshida
> masayuki yoshida wrote:
>
> > > So why the surprise among the general public as recently as the 90s when aged soldiers
> > > came forward or researchers publicized their findings and people created a traveling
> > > exhibit?
> >
> > Can you tell me some references accessible to me?
>
> No. Now amuse me by claiming it is not true because you have not seen it for yourself, a
> common Japanese response.
So I requested you to provide with some references which can support your argument.
When you assert Japanese don't know such and such things, what do you ground your assertion
on?
> > > Why the cover-ups as when suspicious bodies found buried in mass graves in Tokyo
> > > are simply disposed of?
> >
> > What are you talking about?
>
> You don't know about that either, or you simply won't admit it?
Since I don't know, I asked you. Again, what were you talking about? Give us relevant URLs
for our understanding of mass graves stuff.
> > > Why the government denials? And why don't students know?
> >
> > Do you mean that the goverment is Japanese one?
>
> Yes, the Japanese government attempts to keep war atrocities quiet.
Isn't plausible to presume that the government's attitude is very relevant to the USA which
took much advantage of the secret files of Unit 731.
> > I don't know why students don't know.
>
> Because people like you haven't told them enough.
Then your student at your work place should be lectured by you and all of them should know
anything about Unite 731 as much as you do. However the reality involved with you is ...
> > I don't care about it.
>
> Why not? Is this why you changed jobs?
How is my job concerned with this thread? You want to talk about my job? Then when you do
so, then I will talk about your job here. Is it Okay?
To me, it is very strange that despite ranting the issues on Unit 731, the Nanking event and
accusing Japanese of ignorance at your work place, you don't get fired. It would be that
your ranting is carried out only here in this newsgroup. Boys, be a quiet man of action!
> > Or rather, I care about why you care about why students don't care about.
>
> Why are you so apathetic about your own people and country?
That was my cynical attitude. I sometimes pretend to be ignorant and apathetic when I
discuss gaijins who rant by their surface knowledge. I am now thinking about the reason why
you are so 'uzai'.
Masayuki
masayuki yoshida
> mtfe...@netscape.net wrote:
> > And please provide me a reference about these mass-graves in Tokyo.
> >
> > Pretty please?
>
> Nope.
You should. Otherswise you will lose credibility of your account.
Masayuki
masayuki yoshida
> masayuki yoshida wrote:
>
> > "Eric Takabayashi" <eta...@yahoo.co.jp> wrote in message
> > news:3F312A51...@yahoo.co.jp...
> > > masayuki yoshida wrote:
> > >
> > > > > > People have an ability to read.
> > > > >
> > > > > Same elsewhere in the world.
> > > >
> > > > http://tinyurl.com/j6g8
> > > >
> > > > Wake me when Johnny can read.
> > >
> > > What happened to your it's their choice if someone is
> > > ignorant, and you are not the decision maker for
> > > others, policy? Or does that only apply when people
> > > criticize Japan?
> > >
> > > The issue is Japan and their denial when regarding
> > > their own faults and wrongdoing (in contrast to their
> > > loud protests when they are victimized to a much lesser
> > > extent), not your repeated poor attempts at humor or
> > > attempts at deflection away from Japanese denial,
> > > faults and wrongdoing.
> >
> > See this site for example:
> >
> > http://n471.hp.infoseek.co.jp/china-photo/731-butai/731-butai.html
>
> What of it? How is this relevant to the fact Japanese don't know, or the fact you don't
> care if Japanese don't know about their own country and history?
I ain't interested in your assumption on such Japanese ignorance. *Many* friends and
colleagues of mine know anything about the Ishi Butai.
An English teacher who daily instructs Japanese young chapatsu gals in English may think
that all Japanese are ignorant like them. Go to Japanese news groups where lots of Japanese
people are very familiar with modern Japanese history and politics. Is your ability enough
for discussing anything in Japanese? If you live in Japan for a decade, you must be an able
debater.
In the news group discussion you will also say that Japanese don't know their own history.
Get to there by any means. Try have your guts!
If you don't, we will regard you as a model of 'uchi-benkei' (tough on one's own turf). By
the way you are a grad from business administration, aren't you? Where were you educated
modern Japanese history as much as you have an *entitlement* to accuse Japanese of lack of
historical knowledge?
> > Your ability and basic knowledge are enough for reading Japanese history in Japanese?
You did not answer. Why not? Evaluate yourself.
Masayuki
masayuki yoshida
> mtfe...@netscape.net wrote:
>
> > masayuki yoshida <ys...@yahoo.co.jp> wrote:
> >
> > > "Eric Takabayashi" <eta...@yahoo.co.jp> wrote in message
> >
> > > There are lots of books on Unit 731 in Japan. People have an ability to read.
> >
> > So, NOW your complaint is NOT that things are covered up,
>
> They are being covered up, until the government comes clean and opens up those
> files, and reveals what was lost and destroyed.
Oh, so simple! Think about what will happen when what was lost and destroyed is revealed.
Give careful consideration to thing's political effects.
I wonder if medical secrets are on the side of the US who condoned all ex-members of Unit
731.
> > but that people aren't interested in what you think they SHOULD be interested????
>
> Not what I think they should be interested in, but what they really should be
> interested in.
Japanese who are in ignorance of Unite 731 are a more peace lover than Americans who killed
innocent people by their own selfish justification.
Right-wingers may say in this way:
"We have to thank Unit 731 for contributing to the future society. Due to their efforts and
Chinese sacrifices, medicines have developed so much, the USA obtained diverse intellectual
properties, medical manufactures such as Midori Juji or the like gains a mountain of money,
the US and UK could justify their brutality by making much use of people's fears and dreads
of the project that Unite 731 carried out."
Masayuki
masayuki yoshida
> masayuki yoshida wrote:
>
> > "masayuki yoshida" <ys...@yahoo.co.jp> wrote in message
> > news:bgqnp2$rinn0$1...@ID-201147.news.uni-berlin.de...
> > >
> > > > > Isn't it. How come some Japanese investigators would even know about the
> > > > > existence or activities of Unit 731, not known or revealed to the public
> > > > > until the 90s, fifty years ago? I should say that
> > > >
> > > > Um, you're gonna have to clear up these dates; did you mean the 60s? Ienaga
> > > > wrote about it.
> > >
> > > Correct. I have once heard that the first report over Unit 731 popped up in a
kasutori
> > > magazine or something in the 50s. Seiichi Morimura, mystery novelist, published a
> > > documentary book on the subject, the book became a million seller in 1981 or 1982.
> >
> > http://tinyurl.com/jafz says:
> >
> > <<Most Japanese citizens were unaware of the unit's activities until 1981, when author
> > Seiichi Morimura exposed the unit's dark history in a book, "The Devil's Gluttony". Many
> > of the unit's doctors and researchers became heads of medical and pharmaceutical firms
> > in post-war Japan.
>
> Why don't you dispute this quote that "most Japanese" were ignorant before 1981, or even
> later? Why don't you keep on claiming the Japanese public knew since the 1950s?
Do you want to intend to change the subject? You really said '1990s', but according to this
citation it is '1981'. Since I thought this citation correctly answered your question, I
provided it to you. That's all.
I presume that the Shinsou kasutori magazine had its 200,000-300,000 readers in 1950,
because I think that the then people were quite hungry for not only foods but also stories
about the truth of war times history.
I have no idea of the exact circulation of books on Unit 731which were published in the 60s
and 70s, but it is possible to say that over a million people accessed to public and
university libraries' selves.
In 1981 'Akuma no houshoku' (Devil's greed) was published by Morimura and his assistant
(ex-Akahata journalist of the JCP). Although their book got a best seller, it soon came to
be out of print because right-wingers condemned minor drawbacks or little weaknesses of the
book such as wrong pictures. However later a revised version was published.
I remember that Morimura and his colleague often addressed the summarised story of Unit 731
and were interviewed in TV wide shows and general magazines. Their efforts must have
enlightened people's ignorance of not only Unite 731but also other Japanese war history. In
those days, 'maruta' (the implicit term 'body') was a word in vogue.
> > The Japanese government has never formally apologized for Unit 731's activities,
>
> Any disagreement from you?
I don't know about the governmental attitude toward Unit 731 and its activities. Japan and
the US must share top secrets of Unit 731 with each other for natinal security. On the
other hand, it would be right to say that your nation may be like a coyote which ate
contagious Chinese flesh, Mr Takabayashi aka Mr Ranting.
> > and did not even admit to its existence until August 1998,
>
> Any disagreement from you?
I don't know either. Honestly speaking, I don't care about the contemporary politics. I
care about Japanese history.
> > when the Supreme Court ruled that the
> > existence of the unit was accepted in academic circles.
>
> My goodness. As recently as 1998, it was necessary for the Supreme Court to decide that
even
> just among ACADEMICS, was the mere EXISTENCE of Unit 731 "accepted" (as opposed to FACT
> known and accepted by the Japanese public).
>
> Please, Masayuki, Mike, or anyone else, please, please, tell us all about how much
Japanese
> know about the Unit 731 issue since the1950s.
It is a fact that Japanese know the fact that the project of Unite 731 existed and the US
pardoned war criminals involved with the project.
In particular amongst socialist scholars who often write history books for Aoki Shoten
publishing company, one of publishers under the JCP's dominance, Unit 731 was not only a
subject of social science but also a means of their own political movements. Can you tell
us what and which books on the subject you did read.
Those who read some books on Unit 731 in the 50s know the Unit. Those who have known ever
since 1981 know the Unit. However, those who are not interested in history are not interest
in the Unit.
By the way, you who often say that Japanese are ignorant about their own history know who is
the first Japanese immigrant who sued the US government for claiming equality under law?
Tell us his/her name.
Masayuki
masayuki yoshida
> mtfe...@netscape.net wrote:
>
> > Eric Takabayashi <eta...@yahoo.co.jp> wrote:
> > > masayuki yoshida wrote:
> >
> > >> > You see how Japanese can't stop talking about North Korea, and are so (relatively)
> > >> demanding
> > >> > over the issue? You see the difference in progress made on resolution? That is what
> > >> happens when
> > >> > Japanese actually know and care about an issue.
> > >>
> > >> Tell me how what you say happens will happen.
> >
> > > If Japanese cared about Unit 731 and the suffering they caused, the way they cared
about
> > > much less suffering caused by North Korea, the Unit 731 issue could move toward
> > > resolution, or at least be discussed, like the abduction issue.
> >
> > Again, could you define "resolution", here?
>
> Prosecute, punish, and compensate. And reveal all they know.
If you were authority, how and whom do you prosecute, punish and compensate? And how do you
reveal all the know?
Tell us how you can prosecute and punish criminals who have already were pardoned by the
authority of those days? Tell us how you will come terms with the legal expiry of
prosecuting procedure. Tell us what you think about the relevance of intellectual property.
Tell us how the US's position is in terms of the compensation.
You said before that to teach history is simple. If you still think that way, answering the
above questions is a piece of cake to you, isn't it?
Masayuki
masayuki yoshida
> masayuki yoshida wrote:
>
> > How many people are still ignorant?
>
> Everyone reported as surprised, it would seem.
Everyone? If you got through two reports, then you can say everyone.
Like people's lip service, it would be a surprise service.
> > > > If, despite of there
> > > > being such rich references in Japan, many people are not familiar with the project,
> > > > they would be very busy in doing other things for their own living.
> > >
> > > Like bitching about North Korea when they ignored the issue for over two decades. As a
> > > matter of fact, there are thousands more Japanese and their descendants trapped in
> > North
> > > Korea, but despite some sparse news coverage such as of family members missing
> > relatives
> > > for FIVE decades, the public still doesn't care about them.
> >
> > What books did you read for the understanding of that?
>
> I don't know there are books covering the widespread Japanese ignorance of Unit 731.
Are you serious? What I asked you is about books on Unit 731. You are trying to change the
subject as you often do so.
> Japanese are probably ignorant of how ignorant they are. However, books such as Unit 731
> Testimony written by an Australian, suggest the scope of the need for Japanese people
> to be told.
Again, what books did you read for understanding Unit 731? Tell us Japanese references by
which you got the fact of Unit 731.
> > > > That is one of their choices.
> > >
> > > Like crying over 140,000 disposable pieces of paper instead.
> >
> > Common phenomena in Japan or other countries.
>
> I know it is common in Japan, which is the country we are talking about. That is the
> problem with Japan.
The US pardoned the Japanese medical evils.
> > > > I can understand that as a matter of sensitivity people don't want to
> > > > know about such an evil history.
> > >
> > > You mean about their OWN wrongdoing. When it comes to Japan as victim, they must never
> > > forget. Of course Hiroshima overshadows other mass deaths of Japanese during the war.
> >
> > Whether what you are talking about is their OWN wrongdoing is dependant on political
> > positions. It is not a right way to view historical events only from moral points of
> > view.
>
> Here we go again. Strange Japan does not take such a view when they demand the rest of the
> world adopt their views on WWII, nuclear arms, or any other political position Japan has
> or is promoting.
I am talking about your way of understanding history.
> > > > To forget or to be unaware is *sometimes* the best way
> > > > for getting through the stress burden society.
> > >
> > > What day was today? Why are the Japanese so sensitive about today?
> >
> > At war times, everyday people died.
>
> So why is Japanese suffering or Hiroshima special?
Because Japan is the first victim of NW as an enemy of the USA.
> Why don't Japanese talk about suffering
> in Asia (ten times greater) the same way?
They do. But it is possible to say that you can't exactly interpret what they talk in
Japanese.
> > >How much less stress it
> > > would be to forget or to understand such an outcome as inevitable when starting a war
> > > against the US.
> >
> > What are you implying? I have no idea.
>
> I am saying you should adopt the same view toward Japan and Japanese suffering, you are
> promoting for other countries and their suffering. If people are supposed to be ignorant
> toward Unit 731 and the suffering they inflicted, then Japanese should feel the same way
> about Japanese suffering such as the A bombings.
Then, I have to say that you should adopt the same view toward Iraq and its suffering, you
are promoting for other countries and their suffering which your nation gave. If American
people are supposed to be ignorant toward the terrible effects of defoliants which the US
army gave Vietnam in the killing field and by which many were deformed and the suffering
they inflicted, then Americans should feel the same way about American suffering about such
alcoholics, drugs, rapes, etc.
Masayuki
masayuki yoshida
> masayuki yoshida wrote:
>
> > > You see how Japanese can't stop talking about North Korea, and are so (relatively)
> > demanding
> > > over the issue? You see the difference in progress made on resolution? That is what
> > happens when
> > > Japanese actually know and care about an issue.
> >
> > Tell me how what you say happens will happen.
>
> If Japanese cared about Unit 731 and the suffering they caused, the way they cared about
> much less suffering caused by North Korea, the Unit 731 issue could move toward
> resolution, or at least be discussed, like the abduction issue.
In order to satisfy your wish, Japan has to exchange strategic stuff with your nation.
Japan left lots of valuable infrastructure in China. Can't Japan counterbalance the
compensation with it?
> > > > It's not like Ienaga's book
> > > > didn't sell well in Japan in the 60s, after all.
> > >
> > > So why are Japanese still surprised en masse 30 years later?
> >
> > Isn't the surprise a typical Japanese reaction?
>
> Why are they surprised about something you claim they already have known about since the
> 1950s?
How many years have you lived in Japan?
Japan isn't an honne and tatemae country?
> > > They hadn't. Millions of Japanese probably have picked up Oe's books since he got
> > > the Nobel, but still haven't actually read him.
> >
> > Have you read his dull discourse?
>
> Not in Japanese.
What books do you read in Japanese?
> And Japanese haven't read about Unit 731, either.
Why you know that Japanese haven't read about it? Are you God?
> > > So why the widespread surprise? Why is it now and not three decades ago that people
> > > are actually afraid to travel to the Sea of Japan lest they somehow be abducted,
> > decades
> > > after the last known cases?
> >
> > Whenever I read your articles, they surprise me. Why Eric's way of debate is very
> > similar to that of fierceful members of teacher's union?
>
> Irrelevant. Japanese are ignorant, despite whatever you claim about how much or how early
> they knew, and thus need to be told.
For your justification, first discuss the issue on Unit 731 with your Japanese bosses.
Fiercely as you do here, rant your assertion that your bosses are totally ignorant of their
own history.
And accuse your students of being 'baka' or 'aho' about Unit 731.
Surely you will not find your desk at your work place next day.
At your office as well as in here, do what you want to argue and to accuse, condemn or
whatever.
> > > Do these people also know about the thousands of Japanese who accompanied returnees
> > > to North Korea and their descendants, suffering five decades later, but simply don't
> > care,
> > > thus no public outcry or government response even a hundredth that of the abduction
> > issue?
> >
> > When did you start being interested in North Korea problems?
>
> Ever since I found out that there was a poor harvest and widespread starvation, in the
> years it was first occurring. The need for the millions of North Koreans to receive aid
> to keep them alive is irrelevant to the idiocy of their own government or criminal acts
> they committed, and Japan should realize that before cutting off food and other aid.
What books did you read? Tell us what was Asahi Shimbun's attitude towards North Korea in
the 50s and 60s. Tell us how the newspaper company played a propaganda role for NK. Tell
us whether what they did was right.
Do you know anything about a broken out bank called 'NK bank'?
> > Can you make comments on this lawsuit?
> >
> > http://plaza.across.or.jp/~fujimori/kin7.html
>
> No. We're talking about Unit 731.
When I was discussing Unit 731, it was you who started talking about North Korea. Your
attitude is totally inconsistent and your debate ability is pathetic. You seem to have tons
of mental frustration produced by your daily activities in Fukuyama, don't you? My advice
is Don't baby yourself.
Masayuki
masayuki yoshida
> mtfe...@netscape.net wrote:
>
> > Eric Takabayashi <eta...@yahoo.co.jp> wrote:
> > > mtfe...@netscape.net wrote:
> >
> > >> > So why the surprise among the general public as recently as the 90s when aged
soldiers
> > >> > came forward or researchers publicized their findings and people created a
traveling
> > >> > exhibit?
> > >>
> > >> I dunno; the Asahi Shimbun was publishing various letters from it readers
> > >> which included letters from soldiers supposedly involved in turning
> > >> people over for experimentation.
> >
> > > Look at how much respect "letters from readers" gets.
> >
> > Mr Takabayashi, you profess indignation that "the general public" of Japan
> > knows nothing of these issues.
>
> No, I didn't.
>
> > Now, finding evidence to the contrary (Asahi
> > IS, after all, a MAJOR Japanese newspaper), you downplay the significance
> > of the media,
>
> No, see this group itself for what is thought of local letters to the papers.
>
> > which is undoubtedly where you first received your impression
> > about the relative ignorance of the public.
> >
> > Do we see a contradiction here?
>
> No, because I never claimed Japanese knew nothing.
Although General Mac regarded Japanese as a thirteen-year boy, you may consider her as a
ten-year girl. I regard you as a five-year kid who shows an unreasonable attitude.
> > >> There's a volume in English (a distillation
> > >> of a two-volume set still available in Japanese) called "Senso". The letters
> > >> dated from the early 80s, and an Asahi reporter was shot-gunned to death
> > >> in an attempt to halt publication of those letters, it seems.
> >
> > > Too bad so much trouble is not taken to resolve war issues, instead of cover them up,
yes?
> >
> > ???
> >
> > You use the word "resolve" in such a fashion that I suspect you do not really
> > know what you mean by it. And if by "cover them up", you mean "publish
> > accounts of them in large newspapers, in books that generate publicity
> > in court cases over the course of decades,
>
> The government did that?
Don't ask Mike but the Japanese government. Send your strong opinion to the Secretary
General of the Cabinet.
> > and have PMs publically
> > apologize
>
> Define apologize, or for what.
Did you read an article written by H. Wagatsuma? Apology is influenced by cultural
factors.
> > to the point where right-wingers drive vans into the Diet
> > building", well, we agree, but I suspect you are using non-standard
> > definitions.
>
> Nope.
Just said 'Nope'. What an economical way!
> > >> Mass graves in Tokyo? Of people killed by 731? That's news to me?
> >
> > > No surprise, as it was clumsily covered up. If not for the efforts of some group to
try to
> > > prevent the government from destroying the bodies (which it did), we never would have
heard
> > > of it in the first place.
> >
> > OK, so, can you DESCRIBE these mass-graves of the victims of Unit 731
> > in Tokyo, please?
>
> Nope.
Mike consumed his time to write lots, and Eric said one word.
One may think that Eric lacks of consideration to others. Especially I need more time to
answer to Eric and others here in English than Eric does. But he doesn't seem to think
about that consideration. His rant is a kind of babying himself or reducing his
frustration.
> > >> And a cynic might point out that the Japanese government's
> > >> decades-long series of denials might simply be a foreshadowing of the
> > >> current (ie, last 10-odd years) US government's "spin-doctoring".
> >
> > > I no longer bother attempting to defend actions or policies of the US.
> >
> > And I am merely pointing out that this appears to be a human, not Japanese,
> > problem.
>
> No, you are for some reason using the US to explain or excuse the Japanese lack of
response.
Eric appears a crank.
> > >> Why don't students know? I dunno; I keep hearing most American students
> > >> couldn't find Iraq on a map,
> >
> > > That is hardly what is important regarding the war in Iraq.
> >
> > OK, then what is your point?
>
> We don't need to find Iraq on a map for any issues in Iraq to be resolved.
I wonder what Eric's students think about if they happen to read this comments.
Masayuki
mtfe...@netscape.net
>> >> > You see how Japanese can't stop talking about North Korea, and are so (relatively) demanding
>> >> > over the issue? You see the difference in progress made on resolution? That is what happens when
>> >> > Japanese actually know and care about an issue.
>> >> Right. Hardly surprising that the issue of an unstable nuclear power within
>> >> spitting distance of them,
>>
>> > That is not the issue to the Japanese, the fate of 13 abductees and their children is.
>>
>> OK, I guess NHK is reporting it to me all wrong...
> No, perhaps you are watching them wrong.
Maybe I should look at them upside down?
> is a precondition to normalization talks.
Which means what, exactly? That Japan will give them money? They get MOST
of their hard currency from Japan already.
>> OK, what do you suggest they do? Declare war?
> Japan should have resolved the war issue then, and I do not mean San Francisco Peace Treaty that they
What do you mean by "resolved", PRECISELY?
They surrendered. The war ended. They were ruled by a foreign power, directly,
for 7 years, had a new constitution foisted upon them, etc.
What's not resolved? Have they resurrected the Hitler "We didn't lose"
line while I was out?
> always use to avoid taking responsibility, and Japan would not have the war era historical problems they
> have today.
What "problems" are these? Are they dragging the economy down? Endangering
the populace? Or is it just an aesthetic thing?
>> The was out for decades, and highly controversial.
> And Japanese still don't know.
Neither did you; maybe there's something in the water there that makes
people stupid.
>> Being controversial, it generated a lot of publicity.
> So you say. And Japanese still don't know.
Nor you.
>> The decades-long lawsuit generated more.
>> Asahi Shimbun published first-hand accounts of some of the incidents from
>> time-to-time. Yet, you rip the Japanese people for not having heard of
>> this; a bit odd, don't you think?
> No, because Japanese don't know.
Nor you.
>> Actually, I know of no attempt to deny the existance of the unit by any
>> government official agency in the last few decades.
> So why was it 1998, when the government made the admission?
If you meant to write 19*6*8, I'd be more inclined to believe you.
Need a reference?
>> I DO know they wanted to keep it out of school texts,
> That could be called a coverup.
The ol' "let's hide it by making a big deal out of the court case" ploy,
eh?
Very clever.
>> > And Japanese still don't know.
>>
>> Neither do you?
> I know. Japanese don't.
If you "know", then why didn't you know the data were PUBLISHED in the
60s?
>> So, is there something wrong with you, or just them?
> Japan's unresolved war issues and their apathy and ignorance about them, are a problem about them, not me.
So, you don't know, and you don't care?
>> > I am not the one who needs to be told more about Unit 731.
>>
>> OK, ONE MORE TIME:
>>
>> WHERE are these mass-graves in Tokyo for the 731 victims?
> Why don't you admit you don't know?
Um, do you speak English? Or has Monkey-boy taken over your keyboard?
What part of "I never heard about it" is confusing?
Were the words insufficiently monosyllabic?
>> (Not to mention,
>> why would they ship the corpses from China to the capitol?)
> To study. Also, they were reportedly not all dead.
So, no doubt, you have a reference for me?
Pretty please with sugar lumps and honey?
>> I dunno what to tell you; my wife has a friend from Niigata, and they
>> apparently knew about it for some time...
> Nice to know your wife's friend represents the Japanese public, the millions who don't know.
Nicer to know, I suppose that YOU represent the millions.
>> I can really only speak of Kochi recently, but the people I ran into in
>> Tokyo, or at least a few of them, seemed to know.
> A few. I am talking about the Japanese public.
I suppose only the Japanes private sector lives in Kochi, then. The public
sector must live closer to you.
>> > I know the Japanese people and government doesn't care about them like the abductees.
> I forgot to mention they also don't know.
OK, so when NHK airs a "tearful" reunion of abandoned Chinese and Korean
resident Japanese with their "family" in Japan, they must turn the set
off.
I guess that's the problem with public TV.
>> > I know there are thousands, if they are still alive.
>>
>> And a good number in China as well.
> I know. But we are talking about North Korea.
OK, I suppose that's different for reasons which will come to you later.
>> Pardon me, I meant 6 decades.
> Did you ask them if they considered themselves Japanese or not (regardless of the fact they are still
Since a good many of those returned to (in this case) China after having
reunited with their families, I'm gonna go with the "vote with their feet"
metric.
Really, Mr Takabayashi, you canNOT have been so dense not to have noted that
old people in general tend to like the familiar.
>> Uh, because if you have no idea why something is happening, most likely
>> you are never going to be able to do something about it.
> Why would not knowing stop people from ending Japanese ignorance of wartime issues? If Japanese schools
I'm sorry; I don't grok.
How is it that not understanding the "why" of something renders you better
able to raise your voice about it?
>> Decades pass regardless of what we do with them. Natural laws and all that.
>>
>> Now, what is "resolved" in Germany, that is not in Japan?
>>
>> Be VERY precise for me, please.
> Responsibility for wartime actions.
Hmm, Japan paid money to numerous nations, who have claimed that they considered
the issues "settled".
So, what, precisely, is unresolved?
>> > No, they are not. Germany's legal and political stance are quite different from that of Japan.
>> Explain in detail.
> Are you being funny?
No.
> Japanese are permitted to publicly deny wartime actions and responsibility, as well
> as promote wartime or warlike views.
So are Germans.
>> > Yet Japanese continue to whine about how they suffered in the war, or about the nuclear issue today.
>> > What a difference.
>>
>> You don't know too many Germans, do you?
> None. But the issue is Japan.
Then you should stop pretending you know a difference between the Japanese
and the Germans.
>> > Japan should pay survivors and their families, those responsible punished by courts of law, and the
>> > issue should be "explained", similar to what Japanese would like done regarding the abduction issue.
>>
>> You really should read Shirer's book, Mr Takabayashi...
> Is it about Japan?
Some. But your remarks about Germany's reaction to WWII events doesn't seem
to have much to do with Japan, yet you bring them up constantly.
Is this a game only you can play?
Mike
mtfe...@netscape.net
>> Then what have you been ranting for for the past 20-30 posts, with your
>> constant refrain of "they don't know anything about it, why don't they
>> know?", etc?
>>
>> Just color commentary?
> I didn't say and don't believe that they don't know anything. But it's true they don't know.
Oooooooooooooooook.
Care to try that in English?
>> I'm sorry; I'm supposed to look at the cyber-musings of a bunch of ex-pats
>> and ex-ex-pats for what they think of Japanese writings in national
>> newspapers, is that correct?
> It would give you an indication that you shouldn't put much stock in the simple fact something
> makes the letters to the paper.
Right; after all, several thousand letters written over the course of
more than a decade addressing the same issues are utterly irrelevant
to the "fact" that you know what you're talking about.
>> So sorry, I fail to see how anything they say could refute the fact that
>> ACCOUNTS of the incidents have been printed in national media.
> They could say, Japanese don't know, because they don't.
OK, they know, but they don't know, though they publish it, right?
>> > No, because I never claimed Japanese knew nothing.
could you explain the above, in light of your statement above:
"They could say, Japanese don't know, because they don't."
>> So, you claim they know about it, but...
>>
>> OK, you've lost me. You've claimed several times the general public knew
>> nothing of (eg) Unit 731, about now you claim that you never claimed that?
> Because I didn't claim and don't believe that they know nothing.
"They could say, Japanese don't know, because they don't."
I'm getting surrealled-out here.
>> You use words in a way completely at odds with more accepted usages, Mr
>> Takabayashi.
> Nope. "Don't know" doesn't mean nothing,
So, you mean they "don't know", except for the stuff they "do know".
I am enlightened.
>> Well, lessee; invading and inflicting harm upon their neighbors, Murayama
>> actually mentioned medical experiments, etc.
> Define "apologize" according to their usage.
UH, "we done wrong"?
"it was our fault"?
> of Japanese wrongdoing before Koizumi,
I don't recall mentioning PMs before Koizumi.
Could you refresh my memory with a quote from me please?
>> Then you don't follow the media.
> Yes I do. And Japanese still don't know.
But they do know; but they don't.
According to you.
["Mass grave" discussion]
>> I see; is this a secret between you and someone else, or what?
> No, it's a secret of the Japanese government.
Then how did you find out?
>> I am also pointing out to you that you seem quite ignorant of things which
>> have appeared in the media of the course of the years,
> Why does simple appearance in the media,
It does rather refute your claims that the government is trying to hide this,
since NHK is rather funded by the government...
>> and that as such,
>> your protestations seem hollow: information has been made available, yet
>> you claim not to have seen it.
> I claim not to have seen what?
Uh, info that the Unit 731 stuff was published in the 60s?
Mike
mtfe...@netscape.net
>> > Prosecute, punish, and compensate. And reveal all they know.
>>
>> So, they should punish people pardoned by the US?
> They should also punish the Americans.
Well, next time you're here in the US, find their graves and piss on 'em.
Or were you rather hoping to exhume the bodies and imprison them?
Mike
mtfe...@netscape.net
>> And please provide me a reference about these mass-graves in Tokyo.
>>
>> Pretty please?
> Nope.
Oh, darn, and I asked so nicely...
Mike
masayuki yoshida
I suspect that Mr Takabayashi is in the Manga Comic world, where he is free to exhume the
bodies and imprison them.
Masayuki
> Mike
masayuki yoshida
<mtfe...@netscape.net> wrote in message news:bh24o1$s3h$7...@news.Stanford.EDU...
Mr Takabayashi started addressing 'Unit 731':
http://tinyurl.com/jhv0
His view has not unfolded: ;-)
http://tinyurl.com/jhv5
He seems to have read this book:
http://tinyurl.com/jhv2
Its Japanese version is available:
http://tinyurl.com/jhux
He is saying about bodies:
http://tinyurl.com/jhvc
> And based on this, the
> court also ruled that the government
> improperly instructed the removal of the
> section on Unit 731.
Mr Takabayashi said:
"Because the government finally admitted to the
existance of the unit in 1991(?). The truth did
not prevent them recently from ordering bones
excavated from an old Tokyo medical university to
be destroyed before they could be analyzed. They
had been judged to be foreign, and possibly Unit
731 subjects. A group of Japanese and others did
try to oppose the action in court, to no avail."
I wonder if the bones that he said above are the mass-grave stuff.
Masayuki, private detective
John W.
> If you don't, we will regard you as a model of 'uchi-benkei' (tough on one's own turf).
'We'?
John W.
Eric Takabayashi
> I ain't interested in your assumption on such Japanese ignorance.
You are not interested in a great many things.
> *Many* friends and colleagues of mine know anything about the Ishi Butai.
So what? And you were a reporter, a writer and now a PhD.
> An English teacher who daily instructs Japanese young chapatsu gals in English may think
> that all Japanese are ignorant like them.
No, I say Japanese are ignorant because the general public is ignorant, and you of all people
are a funny one to deny it.
> Go to Japanese news groups where lots of Japanese
> people are very familiar with modern Japanese history and politics. Is your ability enough
> for discussing anything in Japanese? If you live in Japan for a decade, you must be an able
> debater.
>
> In the news group discussion you will also say that Japanese don't know their own history.
They don't.
> Get to there by any means. Try have your guts!
I've been there, since back in the days of Akira Ijuin, and I've told you what I've found
there. It is places like there where I've found some of the worst war apologists and deniers
this side of Kobayashi, who became famous for such more recently, because people don't know the
truth and are able to be swayed by such as him.
> If you don't, we will regard you as a model of 'uchi-benkei' (tough on one's own turf). By
> the way you are a grad from business administration, aren't you? Where were you educated
> modern Japanese history
Nope. Not by major.
> as much as you have an *entitlement* to accuse Japanese of lack of
> historical knowledge?
My ignorance of Japanese history has no relevance to Japanese ignorance of their own history,
and yours is a common tactic to deflect attention from the fact they do not know and are not
told.
> > > Your ability and basic knowledge are enough for reading Japanese history in Japanese?
>
> You did not answer. Why not?
Because such as you will only continue to deny the facts.
> Evaluate yourself.
I evaluate myself as wasting my time talking to such as you, who deny what you well know and
what is before your eyes, a common outcome in Japan.
Eric Takabayashi
> "Eric Takabayashi" <eta...@yahoo.co.jp> wrote in message
> news:3F3251EC...@yahoo.co.jp...
> > masayuki yoshida wrote:
> >
> > > "masayuki yoshida" <ys...@yahoo.co.jp> wrote in message
> > > news:bgqnp2$rinn0$1...@ID-201147.news.uni-berlin.de...
> > > >
> > > > > > Isn't it. How come some Japanese investigators would even know about the
> > > > > > existence or activities of Unit 731, not known or revealed to the public
> > > > > > until the 90s, fifty years ago? I should say that
> > > > >
> > > > > Um, you're gonna have to clear up these dates; did you mean the 60s? Ienaga
> > > > > wrote about it.
> > > >
> > > > Correct. I have once heard that the first report over Unit 731 popped up in a
> kasutori
> > > > magazine or something in the 50s. Seiichi Morimura, mystery novelist, published a
> > > > documentary book on the subject, the book became a million seller in 1981 or 1982.
> > >
> > > http://tinyurl.com/jafz says:
> > >
> > > <<Most Japanese citizens were unaware of the unit's activities until 1981, when author
> > > Seiichi Morimura exposed the unit's dark history in a book, "The Devil's Gluttony". Many
> > > of the unit's doctors and researchers became heads of medical and pharmaceutical firms
> > > in post-war Japan.
> >
> > Why don't you dispute this quote that "most Japanese" were ignorant before 1981, or even
> > later? Why don't you keep on claiming the Japanese public knew since the 1950s?
>
> Do you want to intend to change the subject?
Nope.
> You really said '1990s',
Yes. And Japanese are even ignorant right now. Why don't you recall it is you posting a quote
about even 1998?
> but according to this
> citation it is '1981'. Since I thought this citation correctly answered your question, I
> provided it to you. That's all.
What question?
> I presume that the Shinsou kasutori magazine had its 200,000-300,000 readers in 1950,
Out of a hundred million? Glad they represent the Japanese public.
> because I think that the then people were quite hungry for not only foods but also stories
> about the truth of war times history.
>
> I have no idea of the exact circulation of books on Unit 731which were published in the 60s
> and 70s, but it is possible to say that over a million people accessed to public and
> university libraries' selves.
Out of a hundred million? Would Japanese be satisfied by a million Americans knowing about
Hiroshima, and saying Americans know about it? Is one percent what you call Japanese knowing
their history or the truth?
> In 1981 'Akuma no houshoku' (Devil's greed) was published by Morimura and his assistant
> (ex-Akahata journalist of the JCP). Although their book got a best seller, it soon came to
> be out of print because right-wingers condemned minor drawbacks or little weaknesses of the
> book such as wrong pictures. However later a revised version was published.
If you are going to point out even individual books as some argument about Japanese knowing,
then you should acknowledge the publications of the right wing, war apologists and deniers,
such as best selling Kobayashi, who can make TV appearances as a commentator alongside
academics and politicians.
> I remember that Morimura and his colleague often addressed the summarised story of Unit 731
> and were interviewed in TV wide shows and general magazines. Their efforts must have
> enlightened people's ignorance of not only Unite 731but also other Japanese war history. In
> those days, 'maruta' (the implicit term 'body') was a word in vogue.
Right. And all the writings, words, and TV appearances of the right wingers, apologists and
deniers means nothing.
> > > The Japanese government has never formally apologized for Unit 731's activities,
> >
> > Any disagreement from you?
>
> I don't know about the governmental attitude toward Unit 731 and its activities.
Why don't you guess from their handling of the issue?
> Japan and
> the US must share top secrets of Unit 731 with each other for natinal security. On the
> other hand, it would be right to say that your nation may be like a coyote which ate
> contagious Chinese flesh, Mr Takabayashi aka Mr Ranting.
Yes, the US uses Japan, as well as a great many other people, and yes, I have ranted about
that.
> > > and did not even admit to its existence until August 1998,
> >
> > Any disagreement from you?
>
> I don't know either. Honestly speaking, I don't care about the contemporary politics. I
> care about Japanese history.
>
> > > when the Supreme Court ruled that the
> > > existence of the unit was accepted in academic circles.
> >
> > My goodness. As recently as 1998, it was necessary for the Supreme Court to decide that
> even
> > just among ACADEMICS, was the mere EXISTENCE of Unit 731 "accepted" (as opposed to FACT
> > known and accepted by the Japanese public).
> >
> > Please, Masayuki, Mike, or anyone else, please, please, tell us all about how much
> Japanese
> > know about the Unit 731 issue since the1950s.
>
> It is a fact that Japanese know the fact that the project of Unite 731 existed and the US
> pardoned war criminals involved with the project.
When you are arguing a readership of maybe 300,000 or a million, you say that represents
knowing?
> In particular amongst socialist scholars who often write history books for Aoki Shoten
> publishing company, one of publishers under the JCP's dominance, Unit 731 was not only a
> subject of social science but also a means of their own political movements. Can you tell
> us what and which books on the subject you did read.
>
> Those who read some books on Unit 731 in the 50s know the Unit.
Yep.
> Those who have known ever since 1981 know the Unit.
Yep.
> However, those who are not interested in history are not interest in the Unit.
Yep.
> By the way, you who often say that Japanese are ignorant about their own history know who is
> the first Japanese immigrant who sued the US government for claiming equality under law?
Not offhand.
> Tell us his/her name.
Nice deflection from the issue at hand.
Eric Takabayashi
> > Those who read some books on Unit 731 in the 50s know the Unit.
>
> Yep.
IF they actually accept the facts, I should add, because I see how deniers like Kobayashi can put
out best sellers. Try to visualize or argue a readership of more than a million if you want to
generalize that as Japanese "knowing", and acknowledge the presence, words and sales of the right
wing, if you think mere publication or freedom to read represents "knowing".
> > Those who have known ever since 1981 know the Unit.
>
> Yep.
>
> > However, those who are not interested in history are not interest in the Unit.
>
> Yep.
>
> > By the way, you who often say that Japanese are ignorant about their own history know who is
> > the first Japanese immigrant who sued the US government for claiming equality under law?
>
> Not offhand.
And I'll tell you that despite having the ability to look it up and lie about it.
masayuki yoshida
"John W." <worth...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:73fde4f0.03080...@posting.google.com...
'We' refers here to those who can understand the metaphor off hand. Sorry about not
including you, John.
Masayuki
> John W.
Michael Cash
<ys...@yahoo.co.jp> belched the alphabet and kept on going with:
I also remember seeing something in the news about some remains being
discovered on the grounds of a place that did some nefarious research
back in the bad old days. Can't recall if it was in Tokyo or Chiba,
though. Wasn't 731 actually based out of Chiba?
--
Michael Cash
"There was a time, Mr. Cash, when I believed you must be the most useless
thing in the world. But that was before I read a Microsoft help file."
Prof. Ernest T. Bass
Mount Pilot College
Michael Cash
the alphabet and kept on going with:
>Eric Takabayashi <eta...@yahoo.co.jp> wrote:
>> mtfe...@netscape.net wrote:
>
>>> > Prosecute, punish, and compensate. And reveal all they know.
>>>
>>> So, they should punish people pardoned by the US?
>
>> They should also punish the Americans.
>
>Well, next time you're here in the US, find their graves and piss on 'em.
Interesting you should use that expression. A few days ago I remarked
to someone by e-mail that the more deeply I read into the Hirasawa
case the longer becomes the list of graves I want to piss on. And I
haven't even read far enough to have an opinion one way or another
about any possible connection with a 731-related coverup.
Michael Cash
<ys...@yahoo.co.jp> belched the alphabet and kept on going with:
>"Eric Takabayashi" <eta...@yahoo.co.jp> wrote in message
>news:3F32571C...@yahoo.co.jp...
>> mtfe...@netscape.net wrote:
>>
>> > Eric Takabayashi <eta...@yahoo.co.jp> wrote:
>> > > masayuki yoshida wrote:
>> >
>> > >> > You see how Japanese can't stop talking about North Korea, and are so (relatively)
>> > >> demanding
>> > >> > over the issue? You see the difference in progress made on resolution? That is what
>> > >> happens when
>> > >> > Japanese actually know and care about an issue.
>> > >>
>> > >> Tell me how what you say happens will happen.
>> >
>> > > If Japanese cared about Unit 731 and the suffering they caused, the way they cared
>about
>> > > much less suffering caused by North Korea, the Unit 731 issue could move toward
>> > > resolution, or at least be discussed, like the abduction issue.
>> >
>> > Again, could you define "resolution", here?
>>
>> Prosecute, punish, and compensate. And reveal all they know.
>
>If you were authority, how and whom do you prosecute, punish and compensate? And how do you
>reveal all the know?
>
>Tell us how you can prosecute and punish criminals who have already were pardoned by the
>authority of those days?
Were they actually formally pardoned? Or just not prosecuted?
>Tell us how you will come terms with the legal expiry of
>prosecuting procedure.
The statute of limitations issue wouldn't necessarily revolve around
Japan's 15 year limit for prosecuting murderers. Some jurisdictions
have no statute of limitations at all. Since many of the crimes
happened in China, it would be interesting to know if China has a
statute of limitations regarding murders. And the Belgians seem to
have set themselves up to prosecute people for war crimes committed
anywhere in the world. What time limit do they work with?
Michael Cash
belched the alphabet and kept on going with:
>
>
>Michael Cash wrote:
>
>> The investigators believed the rare poison used in the murder could
>> only have been obtained by certain people, such as those working for
>> the notorious Unit 731, a secret organization within the army believed
>> to have conducted experiments on human victims during the war in an
>> effort to produce chemical arms and other weapons of mass destruction.
>>
>> The supporters claim the poison was not potassium cyanide as the
>> courts ruled, because the poisoning symptoms weren't immediate.
>
>Does anything say anywhere what the poison *was*, rather than only what
>it *wasn't* ? As a microbiologist/chemical engineer, I'm kinda curious
>about that point...
I'm still waiting to find out. The autopsy reports had it as
青酸合化物 (I think that was the term. I left the book at work and
can't double check right now), but wasn't able to narrow it down to
青酸カリ. My very limited understanding of 青酸カリ is that it does
work its wonders practically instantaneously. Upon entering the
bloodstream it bonds with hemoglobin and interferes with hemoglobin's
ability to transport oxygen throughout the body. Simply put, one dies
of internal suffocation. It also has some effect on the heart and the
central nervous system, speeding death. It causes headache, dizziness,
loss of motor control, coma, convulsions. Unpleasant stuff like that.
It is readily and rapidly absorbed into the body and almost instantly
causes sensations of an inability to breath, constricting of the
throat, and weakening of the pulse. Convulsions give way to
unconsciousness and death brought on by a loss of pulmonary function.
The police/prosecutors were never able to establish that Hirasawa
possessed any of this poison. On this point, as well as some others,
they and the courts took the "guilty until proven innocent" approach
to analyzing the (lack of) evidence.
Japan's first murder committed with this poison took place in
November, 1935, by the way. It happened in a coffee shop.
mtfe...@netscape.net
> On Sat, 9 Aug 2003 06:37:07 +0000 (UTC), mtfe...@netscape.net belched
> the alphabet and kept on going with:
I do not belch; I occassionally fart, but I do NOT belch.
>>Well, next time you're here in the US, find their graves and piss on 'em.
> Interesting you should use that expression. A few days ago I remarked
I could have been polite, and said "filter a couple of through your kidneys
onto their graves", I suppose...
> to someone by e-mail that the more deeply I read into the Hirasawa
> case the longer becomes the list of graves I want to piss on. And I
> haven't even read far enough to have an opinion one way or another
> about any possible connection with a 731-related coverup.
Most of the cover-up came decades ago, when the US decided they wanted
the "data" gathered. Silly, considering the accounts I've read indicate
nothing like controlled circumstances, and most of the data the US would
later use in the NASA and high-altitude tests we conducted on our own
(less lethally and more rigorously), but I suppose at the end of the war,
a bunch of upper-echelon desk warriors have to pad their resumes by taking
charge of something, and making it seem important by calling it 'secret'.
Mike
mtfe...@netscape.net
> On Sat, 9 Aug 2003 13:53:55 +0900, "masayuki yoshida"
> <ys...@yahoo.co.jp> belched the alphabet and kept on going with:
> Were they actually formally pardoned? Or just not prosecuted?
>>Tell us how you will come terms with the legal expiry of
Given immunity from prosecution for war crimes in return for exchanging
the data. A formal pardon would be issued in such cases as the SS colonel
in Northern Italy who was sentenced to death for directly ordering the
execution of over 300 US POWs, but who also arranged the orderly surrender
of troops, saving much grief on both sides.
> The statute of limitations issue wouldn't necessarily revolve around
> Japan's 15 year limit for prosecuting murderers. Some jurisdictions
As Japan is now a sovereign nation, unless the former members become
completely unhinged and visit, say, China, the only nation which could
prosecute them would be Japan, and if they were under Imperial orders,
that would be a difficult case to make.
> have no statute of limitations at all. Since many of the crimes
> happened in China, it would be interesting to know if China has a
> statute of limitations regarding murders. And the Belgians seem to
> have set themselves up to prosecute people for war crimes committed
> anywhere in the world. What time limit do they work with?
Eternity. But the host nation has to agree to extradition.
Mike
masayuki yoshida
"Michael Cash" <mike...@sunfield.ne.jp> wrote in message
news:j29bjvc1hcm7j7k7m...@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 9 Aug 2003 13:37:43 +0900, "masayuki yoshida"
> <ys...@yahoo.co.jp> belched the alphabet and kept on going with:
>
> >"Eric Takabayashi" <eta...@yahoo.co.jp> wrote in message
> >news:3F33A38C...@yahoo.co.jp...
> >> mtfe...@netscape.net wrote:
> >> > And please provide me a reference about these mass-graves in Tokyo.
> >> >
> >> > Pretty please?
> >>
> >> Nope.
> >
> >You should. Otherswise you will lose credibility of your account.
>
> I also remember seeing something in the news about some remains being
> discovered on the grounds of a place that did some nefarious research
> back in the bad old days. Can't recall if it was in Tokyo or Chiba,
> though. Wasn't 731 actually based out of Chiba?
If what you and Mr Takabayashi are talking about is an issue involved by this site, I know
it:
However, this suggests the bones in question were not found in mass-graves.
Masayuki
masayuki yoshida
Sorry about the typo, 'Unite'. I was thinking of the relation between Unit 731 and the
United State.
Masayuki
masayuki yoshida
Yes, the vital issue is very relevant to jurisdictions. Each nation has its own
legal system. International laws can be applied to some nations but not to
others. Secondly what we have to think seriously is that many war crimes in
question were carried out in the previous regime of China (eg, Manchuria) by
the previous regime of Japan under totalitarianism. How can you justify for the
transferring jurisdiction. Thirdly, why is it that contemporary Japanese have to
take a collective responsibility, like in feudal times, for crimes which different
individuals committed over 58 years ago.
Masayuki
masayuki yoshida
Yes, the vital issue is very relevant to jurisdictions. Each nation has its own
legal system. International laws can be applied to some nations but not to
others. Secondly what we have to think seriously is that many war crimes in
question were carried out in the previous regime of China (eg, Manchuria) by
the previous regime of Japan under totalitarianism. How can you justify for the
transferring jurisdiction. Thirdly, why is it that contemporary Japanese have to
take (feel) a collective responsibility, like in feudal times, for crimes which
Michael Cash
<ys...@yahoo.co.jp> belched the alphabet and kept on going with:
>Yes, the vital issue is very relevant to jurisdictions. Each nation has its own
>legal system. International laws can be applied to some nations but not to
>others. Secondly what we have to think seriously is that many war crimes in
>question were carried out in the previous regime of China (eg, Manchuria) by
>the previous regime of Japan under totalitarianism. How can you justify for the
>transferring jurisdiction. Thirdly, why is it that contemporary Japanese have to
>take a collective responsibility, like in feudal times, for crimes which different
>individuals committed over 58 years ago.
I think the Hirasawa case raises a question which, if one gives it
some thought, may cause people to view the whole broad issue in a
different light:
How can one realistically expect Japanese to hold accountable their
own government for past crimes and abuses of power against the people
of other nations when they don't even hold accountable the Japanese
government for current crimes and abuses of power against themselves?
masayuki yoshida
> On Tue, 12 Aug 2003 22:49:36 +0900, "masayuki yoshida"
> <ys...@yahoo.co.jp> belched the alphabet and kept on going with:
>
>
> >Yes, the vital issue is very relevant to jurisdictions. Each nation has its own
> >legal system. International laws can be applied to some nations but not to
> >others. Secondly what we have to think seriously is that many war crimes in
> >question were carried out in the previous regime of China (eg, Manchuria) by
> >the previous regime of Japan under totalitarianism. How can you justify for the
> >transferring jurisdiction. Thirdly, why is it that contemporary Japanese have to
> >take a collective responsibility, like in feudal times, for crimes which different
> >individuals committed over 58 years ago.
>
> I think the Hirasawa case raises a question which, if one gives it
> some thought, may cause people to view the whole broad issue in a
> different light:
>
> How can one realistically expect Japanese to hold accountable their
> own government for past crimes and abuses of power against the people
> of other nations when they don't even hold accountable the Japanese
> government for current crimes and abuses of power against themselves?
I have to ask some questions for understanding of your account. First
who is "one who can realistically expect"? Can this "one" include Japanese?
Second, who are "they" of "they don't even hold accountable..."?
Masayuki
mtfe...@netscape.net
> I think the Hirasawa case raises a question which, if one gives it
> some thought, may cause people to view the whole broad issue in a
> different light:
> How can one realistically expect Japanese to hold accountable their
> own government for past crimes and abuses of power against the people
> of other nations when they don't even hold accountable the Japanese
> government for current crimes and abuses of power against themselves?
Reminds me of what I wrote a few years back:
Something else must be pointed out here. The Internal Security Act was
passed in 1929. This was the act that created the special (and famous)
"Thought Criminal" category; those accused of being not quite patriotic
enough. From 1929 to about 1943, about 67,000 Japanese were arrested, with
about 6,700 being convicted of "thought crime". While the ostensible crime
was lack of proper patriotism, the reality was that the vast majority of
those arrested were guilty of a) being Communist b) being suspected of
being Communist c) being suspected of being "liberal" d) being suspected
of being associated with or tolerating a leftist/ Communist/intellectual,
etc. Not really crimes of security, but political crimes. It MUST be noted
here that these people, Japanese, many of them otherwise respectable,
HAVE NOT RECEIVED APOLOGIES EITHER. Their convictions STILL STAND,
even those who actually DID oppose the war. NO effort to investigate
even on an individual basis has been made. Those who have tried to get
the cases reopened have been told that "All the evidence was destroyed
in the war", so the case could not be reopened. However, they are
assured that the government does not consider them to be threats in
the future, so they shouldn't worry. Also, on both Saipan and Okinawa,
Imperial soldiers shot Japanese civilians, forced families of Japanese
civilians off cliffs, and strangled the occasional infant. On Okinawa,
they murdered elderly Okinawans for speaking Okinawan, threw grenades
into caves where Japanese civilians had taken refuge, and forced others
to drink poison, rather than surrender. They murdered all civilians who
attempted to get other civilians to surrender, and murdered each other
in the process of surrender. Japan has not apologized for this.
The point is that the modern Japanese government will not apologize even
to its OWN people, for the actions of Imperial Japan.
Mike
Michael Cash
belched the alphabet and kept on going with:
>Michael Cash <mike...@sunfield.ne.jp> wrote:
I was looking at it in terms of post-war abuses of power. Hirasawa was
not the first Japanese citizen to be railroaded, nor was he the last.
Abuses of police and prosecutorial power are an ongoing problem, and
the systemic problems which give rise to enzai and the cultural
circumstances which cause people to (largely) ignore the problem are
ongoing as well.
Moving away from the criminal justice system, one can find abuse of
power problems in various parts of the bureaucracy. More oversight and
accountability need to be built into the system.
My point was that if a good-sized portion of the general populace is
either ignorant of these ongoing problems, doesn't care about them, or
feels there is nothing that can/should be done about them then it is
hardly realistic to expect that same populace to hold the government's
feet to the fire over aspects of the past that many would just as soon
either forget or pretend never happened.
The thread very quickly moved away from Hirasawa's railroading (which
is fine, I won't bitch about topic drift), and on to discussion of
larger scale abuses and atrocities from the past and if/why the
Japanese as a people and as a nation are or are not aware of them and
the degree to which they are or are not known and have or have not
been addressed and redressed.
I'm just suggesting that one doesn't have to look very far to find the
answer.
Michael Cash
"One" is people in general, and can certainly include Japanese. "They"
refers to the Japanese who don't hold the Japanese government
accountable for abuses of power which victimize the Japanese people.
Eric Takabayashi
Yes, I've probably read this particular post of yours, as well as others of
yours on the history newsgroup(s), as well as the FAQ. The Japanese royally
screwed themselves and each other during the war. Okinawans in particular
might be happy to tell you about their wartime suffering themselves.
Which is still no excuse for Japan's ignoring its international historical
issues today, while at the same time expecting the US, the UN, China, or
anyone else to act quickly to resolve issues such as North Korea in Japan's
favor. I can't believe the US is agreeing to place so much importance on the
abduction issue in upcoming talks. Someone should tell the Japanese the US
has not yet resolved its own much greater, POW/MIA issues before expecting US
help over thirteen people and their spouse or children, an alleged 240
missing people and any of their children, or a few thousand Japanese and
their descendants.
--
Learn to astonish spectators in their own hands with ideas
like:
* The Mighty Fine Rotation Penetration
* The Meat Stick of Plenty
* Plus many, many, more !
- Mr. Wiz Trunk of Magic
Did you mean: "meatstick of plenty"?
- Yahoo! Search
mtfe...@netscape.net
> screwed themselves and each other during the war. Okinawans in particular
> might be happy to tell you about their wartime suffering themselves.
Older generation, probably.
> Which is still no excuse for Japan's ignoring its international historical
> issues today, while at the same time expecting the US, the UN, China, or
> anyone else to act quickly to resolve issues such as North Korea in Japan's
> favor. I can't believe the US is agreeing to place so much importance on the
Well, having a stable regime on its border is also in China's favor; having
one on its border is in the ROKs best interests as well.
> abduction issue in upcoming talks. Someone should tell the Japanese the US
> has not yet resolved its own much greater, POW/MIA issues before expecting US
> help over thirteen people and their spouse or children, an alleged 240
> missing people and any of their children, or a few thousand Japanese and
> their descendants.
I know I've posted this before, but I was in Japan in 1995 during the
various "50th Anniversery" Commemorations. On the front page of both
the Nihon Keizai and the Asahi were results of public opinion polls,
each indicated the majority (over 65%) of the Japanese people felt their
government hadn't done enough to apologize for Japan's war-time actions.
About 25% felt they done about right, with the remaining 10% feeling "too
much" had been done.
Sorry, Mr Takabayashi, but not one single resource available to me has
verified your assertions that the Japanese people are ignorant or uncaring
about the issue.
Mike
Eric Takabayashi
> Eric Takabayashi <eta...@yahoo.co.jp> wrote:
> > mtfe...@netscape.net wrote:
>
> > screwed themselves and each other during the war. Okinawans in particular
> > might be happy to tell you about their wartime suffering themselves.
>
> Older generation, probably.
Irrelevant. Japanese who believe, cry or demand "never forget", tell the world,
take action now, should understand people feel exactly the same way about Japanese
wrongdoing.
> > Which is still no excuse for Japan's ignoring its international historical
> > issues today, while at the same time expecting the US, the UN, China, or
> > anyone else to act quickly to resolve issues such as North Korea in Japan's
> > favor. I can't believe the US is agreeing to place so much importance on the
>
> Well, having a stable regime on its border is also in China's favor; having
> one on its border is in the ROKs best interests as well.
A stable regime is not the Japanese precondition to resumption of aid, or
normalization talks. They seem to believe that some Japanese and their children
are more important than a nuclear power with ballistic missiles a seven minute
flight away.
> > abduction issue in upcoming talks. Someone should tell the Japanese the US
> > has not yet resolved its own much greater, POW/MIA issues before expecting US
> > help over thirteen people and their spouse or children, an alleged 240
> > missing people and any of their children, or a few thousand Japanese and
> > their descendants.
>
> I know I've posted this before, but I was in Japan in 1995 during the
> various "50th Anniversery" Commemorations. On the front page of both
> the Nihon Keizai and the Asahi were results of public opinion polls,
> each indicated the majority (over 65%) of the Japanese people felt their
> government hadn't done enough to apologize for Japan's war-time actions.
> About 25% felt they done about right, with the remaining 10% feeling "too
> much" had been done.
>
> Sorry, Mr Takabayashi, but not one single resource available to me has
> verified your assertions that the Japanese people are ignorant or uncaring
> about the issue.
The majority knew or cared then about Unit 731, which is the issue we are
referring to? Are you using the standard dictionary definitions or usages, and I
am, concerning "the public" (noun), "know" (verb), "reveal" (verb), "resolve"
(noun)?
mtfe...@netscape.net
>> Eric Takabayashi <eta...@yahoo.co.jp> wrote:
>> > mtfe...@netscape.net wrote:
>>
>> > screwed themselves and each other during the war. Okinawans in particular
>> > might be happy to tell you about their wartime suffering themselves.
>>
>> Older generation, probably.
> Irrelevant.
No, it's not.
The people who "were there " have, rightfully and thankfully, a different
POV than those who weren't.
>> Well, having a stable regime on its border is also in China's favor; having
>> one on its border is in the ROKs best interests as well.
> A stable regime is not the Japanese precondition to resumption of aid, or
That's nice, and all, but has nothing to do with what I said.
>> I know I've posted this before, but I was in Japan in 1995 during the
>> various "50th Anniversery" Commemorations. On the front page of both
>> the Nihon Keizai and the Asahi were results of public opinion polls,
>> each indicated the majority (over 65%) of the Japanese people felt their
>> government hadn't done enough to apologize for Japan's war-time actions.
>> About 25% felt they done about right, with the remaining 10% feeling "too
>> much" had been done.
>>
>> Sorry, Mr Takabayashi, but not one single resource available to me has
>> verified your assertions that the Japanese people are ignorant or uncaring
>> about the issue.
> The majority knew or cared then about Unit 731, which is the issue we are
> referring to?
Considering you personally didn't seem to know that information about these
matters has been published since at least the 60s, and that for some truly
unexplainable reason you don't seem to have heard of the Ienaga Court
Case (else, your protestations of "cover ups" and censorship cannot be
said to have any meaning), I find your evaluation of what the Japanese did
or did not know to be questionable, at best.
Oh, and why has "the issue" suddenly become ONLY Unit 731, when in this very
post, and previous it has been "Japan's wartime responsibilities", etc?
A bit (a lot) of Mr Gowen in you, isn't there?
> Are you using the standard dictionary definitions or usages, and I
I would say "yes", but you seem to be evolving your dictionary as you go.
Mike
Michael Cash
<ys...@yahoo.co.jp> belched the alphabet and kept on going with:
>Yes, the vital issue is very relevant to jurisdictions. Each nation has its own
>legal system. International laws can be applied to some nations but not to
>others. Secondly what we have to think seriously is that many war crimes in
>question were carried out in the previous regime of China (eg, Manchuria) by
>the previous regime of Japan under totalitarianism. How can you justify for the
>transferring jurisdiction. Thirdly, why is it that contemporary Japanese have to
>take a collective responsibility, like in feudal times, for crimes which different
>individuals committed over 58 years ago.
I think the Hirasawa case raises a question which, if one gives it
some thought, may cause people to view the whole broad issue in a
different light:
How can one realistically expect Japanese to hold accountable their
own government for past crimes and abuses of power against the people
of other nations when they don't even hold accountable the Japanese
government for current crimes and abuses of power against themselves?
--
Michael Cash
>Michael Cash <mike...@sunfield.ne.jp> wrote:
I was looking at it in terms of post-war abuses of power. Hirasawa was
not the first Japanese citizen to be railroaded, nor was he the last.
Abuses of police and prosecutorial power are an ongoing problem, and
the systemic problems which give rise to enzai and the cultural
circumstances which cause people to (largely) ignore the problem are
ongoing as well.
Moving away from the criminal justice system, one can find abuse of
power problems in various parts of the bureaucracy. More oversight and
accountability need to be built into the system.
My point was that if a good-sized portion of the general populace is
either ignorant of these ongoing problems, doesn't care about them, or
feels there is nothing that can/should be done about them then it is
hardly realistic to expect that same populace to hold the government's
feet to the fire over aspects of the past that many would just as soon
either forget or pretend never happened.
The thread very quickly moved away from Hirasawa's railroading (which
is fine, I won't bitch about topic drift), and on to discussion of
larger scale abuses and atrocities from the past and if/why the
Japanese as a people and as a nation are or are not aware of them and
the degree to which they are or are not known and have or have not
been addressed and redressed.
I'm just suggesting that one doesn't have to look very far to find the
answer.
Michael Cash
"One" is people in general, and can certainly include Japanese. "They"
refers to the Japanese who don't hold the Japanese government
accountable for abuses of power which victimize the Japanese people.