Dentists in Japan
Paulrus
I am hoping someone can help settle an argument my wife and I are
having.
My wife is from Japan & we were discussing dentists in Japan. My
understanding was that Japanese dentists have you come back many many
times for a proceedure that American dentists would normally do in 1
visit. My wife is going in to have her wisdom teeth pulled (here in
the USA) and she was very surprised that they'd do all 4 at once. She
claimed that it isn't the "proper" way to do it and that Japanese
dentists would do it the right way - by taking out one tooth per
appointment - thus the proceedure would take 4 visits.
What I would really love to hear is the facts from a Nihon-jin rather
than a gaijin. My wife will most likely not listen to anything a
gaijin says about Japanese dentistry because "only a real Japanese
person truly understands how things work in Japan". So, even though
I've read about the problems and have a good understanding, she will
not listen to anything I say - I'm biased towards the USA and our
system of dentistry.
So can someone help me settle this? Explain why they take so long in
Japan and if possible, I would like to know if Japanese dentists think
that spreading proceedures over several appointments is the "best" way
to do things, or do they do it because that's how the system works (or
something else maybe?.
If possible, please CC answers to my email address - I rarely can
check Usenet because I can only use Google to access it anymore.
Thanks
Paul
Jon up in Tohoku
Hey Paul,
Sorry, Jon the foreigner here. I know I don't fit the criteria for replies
that you set previously in your message here, but I will give you my 2 yens
worth.
I would assume it is similar to the practice of only giving three days worth
of medicine from a regular doctor, and telling you to come back. When using
your national health insurance card, there is a surcharge, and a different
rate for the first appointment within each month. Additional visits are
charged without the initial surcharge, and the rate is cheaper. So in
effect going to the doctor for a few short visits, may be cheaper than
having one longer visit. I would assume that having 4 teeth extracted, in
one shot would cost considerably more than having it done over the course of
4 visits.
I would assume that your dispute with your wife is not about correct
extraction method, so much as economics. Having said that, if teeth doomed
for termination were in the same place, I would think that removing 4 teeth
in a line would not be done by any dentist anywhere in the world, as having
4 empty holes in the maxilla would significantly weaken one area of the jaw,
of risk infection passing into the sinus if in the upper region. I think the
only person you may find willing to do that would be missing a little finger
and wielding a pair of pliers. But the wisdom teeth are in the four corners.
I would also say that wisdom teeth are extracted with different methods,
depending on the individual situation in any country. they can be easily
pulled, or may need surgically removed like my bro's. And in his case, they
were removed individually, because slitting the gums in all four regions at
once would cause great discomfort.
But that is just my 2 yen as I said.
Now, I have 4 students who are dentists, give me till the end of the week
and I will take a consensus for you, and get it straight from the horses
mouth, so to speak.
Oh, and by the way, you can tell your wife that my wife also a Japanese
national, agrees with what I have written here. And that I have spent many
late nights with my students helping them translate English dental journals.
I don't think there is a great deviation in dental practice in the two
countries when it comes to basic procedure, they all study the same stuff.
I think the main differences lie in usage of anaesthesia, and with billing
method.
Jon
Kevin Gowen
If you intend on staying married to this woman, I think that Japanese
dentistry is the least of your concerns.
--
Kevin Gowen
"When I'm president, we'll do executive orders to overcome any wrong
thing the Supreme Court does tomorrow or any other day." Dick Gephardt
(D-MO), presidential candidate
Curt Fischer
My "expertise" is limited to having visited a dentist in Japan one
time. It was yesterday, though. Anyway, I was surprised that I did not
need an appointment to visit this guy's office. Walk-ins welcome. If
they take walk-ins, they probably want their schedule to be as flexible
as possible and not to be tied up in long procedures. Maybe that's
another factor which shortens visits and increases the number thereof?
Is taking walk-ins a widespread practice among dentists in Japan?
--
Curt Fischer
Michael Cash
belched the alphabet and kept on going with:
As Jon indicated, it's all about money.
They amount they receive as a basic fee for the office visit is more
lucrative than the add-on amounts they get for dental tasks performed.
Well, maybe or maybe not in actual yen terms, but by spreading it over
four visits, they not only get the pay for the four extractions, they
collect an extra three times on the basic office visit fee. Dentists
are not only doctors, they're businessmen.
This is sort of similar to how Japanese doctors used to be famous for
loading people up with pharmaceuticals. Formerly, the normal practice
was to get the prescribed medicines directly from the clinic/hospital
you visited. The insurance folks prescribe how much doctors are
reimbursed for office visits and specific procedures performed, and
the doctors were sort of limited in their ability to pad the billing
on stuff like that. But one area where they maintained complete
discretion was in how much/many drugs to prescribe for patients. So to
make bucks, they would just load you up with a king-sized bag of pills
and sell them to you themselves (thereby reaping the markup on them as
well, you see). A few years ago there was a change of some sort, not
sure exactly what it was, which resulted in more and more people
taking their prescriptions out of the clinic/hospital and filling them
at the third-party pharmacy of their choice. Naturally, "independent"
pharmacies started to spring up around hospitals. I have a sneaking
suspicion that lots of them are owned by the doctors who have an
interest in the nearby hospitals.
Sometimes, I almost think that the Japanese invented the profit
motive.
--
Michael Cash
"There was a time, Mr. Cash, when I believed you must be the most useless
thing in the world. But that was before I read a Microsoft help file."
Prof. Ernest T. Bass
Mount Pilot College
Rindler Sigurd
>
> They amount they receive as a basic fee for the office visit is more
> lucrative than the add-on amounts they get for dental tasks performed.
> Well, maybe or maybe not in actual yen terms, but by spreading it over
> four visits, they not only get the pay for the four extractions, they
> collect an extra three times on the basic office visit fee. Dentists
> are not only doctors, they're businessmen.
>
Michael,
You are probably right in over 80% about the money. However, my dentist has
so many patients that he does repair work often in one go. He is always
busy. I can only tell good things about the guy.
But it is unreasonable to extract four wisdom teeth at once. Infection is
one reason, and there are often complications with horizontally grown teeth
of this kind. I had once just one removed, and it turned out to be a major
operation because of the forementioned reasons.
Sigi
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biku
wisdom teeth 2 trips.
When you get a tooth pulled it is nice to be able to
chew on the other side of your mouth for the first couple
of days. If she gets all four out that will really limit her
choices as to which side she can chew on.
Biku
"Paulrus" <6oo2...@sneakemail.com> wrote in message
news:733c8a12.03063...@posting.google.com...
> Hi all -
>
> I am hoping someone can help settle an argument my wife and I are
> having.
> My wife is from Japan & we were discussing dentists in Japan. My
> understanding was that Japanese dentists have you come back many many
> times for a proceedure that American dentists would normally do in 1
> visit. My wife is going in to have her wisdom teeth pulled (here in
> the USA) and she was very surprised that they'd do all 4 at once. She
> claimed that it isn't the "proper" way to do it and that Japanese
> dentists would do it the right way - by taking out one tooth per
> appointment - thus the proceedure would take 4 visits.
>
snip................
Jon up in Tohoku
"Paulrus" <6oo2...@sneakemail.com> wrote in message
news:733c8a12.03063...@posting.google.com...
Paul,
Well OK if this doesn't satisfy you both, then your problem, as Kevin
suggested, runs deeper than dentistry.
Last night I was able to ask one of my students, he is chairman of our
regions dental association, and this was what he said:
"Wisdom teeth are the most complicated of a all extractions, as they are
surgically removed by slitting the gum. They are not removed one at a time,
rather on separate occasions, to limit the amount of profuse bleeding that
most often occurs, and also to avoid stressing the patient. It is scary the
amount of blood that can come from wisdom tooth extractions, not to mention
dangerous."
Well that is what he said, I still think it is a money thing, or at least a
combination of both. But personally I think you are a little off in thinking
American dentists would remove all four in one shot, as a sweeping
statement. Molars maybe, but I don't think they would do wisdom. Sometimes
yes, and sometimes no. I know a girl back home who had two removed from the
bottom in one shot, and the two uppers removed on separate occasions. Your
wife had an X-ray right, well I would believe the dentists decision is based
on that in the US. A Japanese dentist, partly on the X-ray, partly on
customer service, and mostly on the rules of dealing with national health
care.
Again my opinion. and it is the best MY OPINION my hungover arse can do this
morning.
But I hope the answer from my dentist friend helps you. Take care,
Jon
John W.
>
> So can someone help me settle this? Explain why they take so long in
> Japan and if possible, I would like to know if Japanese dentists think
> that spreading proceedures over several appointments is the "best" way
> to do things, or do they do it because that's how the system works (or
> something else maybe?.
>
consider other things that in Japan are considered 'major' and in the
US are not. Take, for example, my father in law. He broke his ankle,
pretty bad. The same thing happened to my friend in the US (though
much, much worse) and he was in the hospital about three days. My
father in law was hospitalized for a month. Does your wife consider
this normal? Probably not. It's an ankle, not life threatening, not
even really all that inconvenient since he (like many patients) went
to work and to home (near the hospital) nearly every day, returning at
night to sleep in the hospital. But in Japan he (and others) didn't
really bat an eye about this.
Japanese really like to not question the way things are done in Japan
and simply accept it as the best solution. That's why their economy is
doing so well.
John W.
Jason Cormier
Tohoku" <jgj...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> I know a girl back home who had two removed from the
> bottom in one shot, and the two uppers removed on separate occasions.
That sounds like my experiences. When I had my bottom ones removed in
university, they did both in one shot. However, it looks like my top ones
will need to be pulled and the dentist says that he prefers to do those
separately as the risk of complications is much greater with upper wisdom
teeth.
Declan Murphy
> But it is unreasonable to extract four wisdom teeth at once. Infection is
> one reason, and there are often complications with horizontally grown teeth
> of this kind. I had once just one removed, and it turned out to be a major
> operation because of the forementioned reasons.
Not sure if it was unreasonable, but I had all four wisdom teeth removed
at once. An overnight stay in a hospital with the four removed under a
general anaesthetic. The stitches came out about 10 days or so later.
Due to pain I couldn't eat many different foods, so for about a
fortnight friends and family preferred to stay "up wind".
--
"Forget Spanish. There's nothing in that language worth reading except
Don Quixote, and a quick listen to the CD of Man of La Mancha will take
care of that. Who speaks it that you are really desperate to talk to?
The help? Your leaf blower? Study French or German, where there are at
least a few books worth reading, or if you're American, try English."
Dame Edna Everage
"If you have to explain satire to someone, you might as well give up,"
Barry Humphries
Brett Robson
>
> My wife is going in to have her wisdom teeth pulled (here in
>the USA) and she was very surprised that they'd do all 4 at once.
What barbaric countries you all live in. In God's Own (TM) we go to an oral
surgeon to have wisdom removed, not a normal dentist. Most of us go to a
hospital for a general anesthetic. Can't believe anyone would let a dentist cut
open their gums and hack at their jaw.
---
"he [John Ashcroft] deliberately left Jesus out of office prayers to avoid
offending non-Christians." - Ben Shapiro 27/2/2003
Jason Cormier
<jet...@deja.com> wrote:
> On 30 Jun 2003 14:51:07 -0700, 6oo2...@sneakemail.com ...
>>
>> My wife is going in to have her wisdom teeth pulled (here in
>> the USA) and she was very surprised that they'd do all 4 at once.
>
>
> What barbaric countries you all live in. In God's Own (TM) we go to an oral
> surgeon to have wisdom removed, not a normal dentist. Most of us go to a
> hospital for a general anesthetic. Can't believe anyone would let a dentist
> cut
> open their gums and hack at their jaw.
General....as in put you under? Egads, the medical (and this includes
dental) profession prefers not to use general unless necessary as it is
riskier. What a backwards nation of medical cowboys this nation of Austria
must be.
Declan Murphy
> On 7/1/03 22:34, in article bdtgc...@drn.newsguy.com, "Brett Robson"
> <jet...@deja.com> wrote:
>
>>On 30 Jun 2003 14:51:07 -0700, 6oo2...@sneakemail.com ...
>>
>>>My wife is going in to have her wisdom teeth pulled (here in
>>>the USA) and she was very surprised that they'd do all 4 at once.
>>
>>What barbaric countries you all live in. In God's Own (TM) we go to an oral
>>surgeon to have wisdom removed, not a normal dentist. Most of us go to a
>>hospital for a general anesthetic. Can't believe anyone would let a dentist
>>cut
>>open their gums and hack at their jaw.
>
> General....as in put you under?
There are people who have their wisdom teeth taken out "in the chair" as
it were, though I opted for the general anesthetic too.
Egads, the medical (and this includes
> dental) profession prefers not to use general unless necessary as it is
> riskier. What a backwards nation of medical cowboys this nation of Austria
> must be.
It brings a whole new meaning to happy hour.
Kevin Wayne Williams
> On 30 Jun 2003 14:51:07 -0700, 6oo2...@sneakemail.com ...
>
>>My wife is going in to have her wisdom teeth pulled (here in
>>the USA) and she was very surprised that they'd do all 4 at once.
>
>
>
> What barbaric countries you all live in. In God's Own (TM) we go to an oral
> surgeon to have wisdom removed, not a normal dentist. Most of us go to a
> hospital for a general anesthetic. Can't believe anyone would let a dentist cut
> open their gums and hack at their jaw.
Not all wisdoms are impacted, or a real big deal of any kind. I had my
upper left pulled a couple of years ago. Took 5 minutes with a pair of
pliers, requiring only a shot of novacaine.
KWW
Brett Robson
and an incision in the gum?
Brett Robson
>
>General....as in put you under? Egads, the medical (and this includes
>dental) profession prefers not to use general unless necessary as it is
>riskier.
Generals for day surgery is quite common in advanced nations such as God's Own,
especially when minor surgery is performed that otherwise requires strong local
anesthetic and is in awkward places.
>What a backwards nation of medical cowboys this nation of Austria
>must be.
>
Wisdom teeth extraction requires surgery, that is the job of a surgeon not a
tooth techinician.
Michael Cash
<jgj...@hotmail.com> belched the alphabet and kept on going with:
>Well OK if this doesn't satisfy you both, then your problem, as Kevin
>suggested, runs deeper than dentistry.
>Last night I was able to ask one of my students, he is chairman of our
>regions dental association, and this was what he said:
>
>"Wisdom teeth are the most complicated of a all extractions, as they are
>surgically removed by slitting the gum. They are not removed one at a time,
>rather on separate occasions, to limit the amount of profuse bleeding that
>most often occurs, and also to avoid stressing the patient. It is scary the
>amount of blood that can come from wisdom tooth extractions, not to mention
>dangerous."
Wow! And to think, I had my upper ones removed with plain ol' pliers
(or forceps, or whatever the hell those things are) and elbow grease.
No slitting of the gums at all. I seem to recall the lower ones coming
out the same way. I clearly remember having the uppers pulled in
Sepponia, because I have a vivid recollection of watching them part
company with my jaw via a reflected image in my dentist's eyeglasses.
I was very impressed with the length of the roots. <sigh>Were that all
my roots were so long....</sigh>
I honestly can't remember if I had the lower ones done in Japan or
not. I *think* I did, though.
Michael Cash
belched the alphabet and kept on going with:
>On 7/1/03 18:12, in article bdt113$rdj$1...@nn-tk102.ocn.ad.jp, "Jon up in
I had both uppers done on the same visit, and your doctor is very
wise. The complication in my case was that my brain leaked out the
holes. Had he done one at a time, I could have tilted my head to one
side and perhaps saved some of it. As it was, there was nothing that
could be done.
Michael Cash
the alphabet and kept on going with:
>On Wed, 02 Jul 2003 04:45:33 GMT, Kevin ...
>>
>>Brett Robson wrote:
>>
>>> On 30 Jun 2003 14:51:07 -0700, 6oo2...@sneakemail.com ...
>>>
>>>>My wife is going in to have her wisdom teeth pulled (here in
>>>>the USA) and she was very surprised that they'd do all 4 at once.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> What barbaric countries you all live in. In God's Own (TM) we go to an oral
>>> surgeon to have wisdom removed, not a normal dentist. Most of us go to a
>>>hospital for a general anesthetic. Can't believe anyone would let a dentist cut
>>> open their gums and hack at their jaw.
>>
>>Not all wisdoms are impacted, or a real big deal of any kind. I had my
>>upper left pulled a couple of years ago. Took 5 minutes with a pair of
>>pliers,
>
>and an incision in the gum?
My uppers came out as easily as his did. No incision necessary.
The mention of general anesthetic suddenly revived my memory about
when I parted company with my lower wisdom teeth. I had some sort of
cyst or something at the base of my lower incisors and my dentist sent
me to a specialist (just as you would expect in Austria, you'll be
relieved to know) to have thing removed. While I was knocked out, he
took the lower wisdom teeth.
The bizarre thing was that the insurance company would pay for general
anesthetic for the wisdom teeth (which came out without incisions, I
believe), but not for the cyst removal procedure.
If there is anything more bizarre and fucked up than the Sepponian
health insurance situation, I don't want to know about it. I
(re)injured a knee and my doctor recommended surgery. The hassle with
the insurance company to get it approved was unbelievable. I finally
got on the phone myself to a sweet young thang at the insurance
company and asked her what the deal was. Her words: "My supervisor,
Cricket, has to approve all surgeries".
I gave up.
My health care depended not on the judgment of a physician, but on
some inaccessible chick by the name of "Cricket".
This is the same country, by the way, that scheduled my mother for a
mastectomy as an outpatient, if you can believe that.
Rindler Sigurd
> at once. An overnight stay in a hospital with the four removed under a
> general anaesthetic. The stitches came out about 10 days or so later.
> Due to pain I couldn't eat many different foods, so for about a
> fortnight friends and family preferred to stay "up wind".
>
>
OK, if you stay in the hospital... and if you have the wish to lose a couple
of pounds. Still, these cases are rare I believe.
Eric Takabayashi
> Rindler Sigurd wrote:
>
> > But it is unreasonable to extract four wisdom teeth at once. Infection is
> > one reason, and there are often complications with horizontally grown teeth
> > of this kind. I had once just one removed, and it turned out to be a major
> > operation because of the forementioned reasons.
>
> Not sure if it was unreasonable, but I had all four wisdom teeth removed
I didn't have four wisdom teeth, only second molars in my upper jaw, but to make
room, a dental surgeon took out my two lower wisdom teeth (which had not even
yet erupted), and my upper second molars, anyway. Under local anesthetic. He had
to cut open my lower gums, and go in after the wisdom teeth with basically a
hammer and chisel to split them so he could remove them from the jawbone. My
head was rocking back in the chair while he was hitting me.
Then I went back to school.
> at once. An overnight stay in a hospital with the four removed under a
> general anaesthetic. The stitches came out about 10 days or so later.
> Due to pain I couldn't eat many different foods, so for about a
> fortnight friends and family preferred to stay "up wind".
Then there was the time I had my jaw wired shut for six weeks after surgery on
both jaws. It smelled like something died, and my mouth was bleeding for a week.
It was also fun when he pulled out the looped wires rooting my upper jaws into
my cheeks. I was attending university that entire time, as well.
Eric Takabayashi
It was cool to spit blood for a week. I do not even recall the choice of being
hospitalized or having general anesthetic for having four teeth extracted.
Eric Takabayashi
> 6oo2...@sneakemail.com (Paulrus) wrote in message news:<733c8a12.03063...@posting.google.com>...
> >
> > So can someone help me settle this? Explain why they take so long in
> > Japan and if possible, I would like to know if Japanese dentists think
> > that spreading proceedures over several appointments is the "best" way
> > to do things, or do they do it because that's how the system works (or
> > something else maybe?.
> >
> Since everyone else has spoken about dentistry, ask your wife to
> consider other things that in Japan are considered 'major' and in the
> US are not. Take, for example, my father in law. He broke his ankle,
> pretty bad. The same thing happened to my friend in the US (though
> much, much worse) and he was in the hospital about three days. My
> father in law was hospitalized for a month. Does your wife consider
> this normal? Probably not. It's an ankle, not life threatening, not
> even really all that inconvenient since he (like many patients) went
> to work and to home (near the hospital) nearly every day, returning at
> night to sleep in the hospital. But in Japan he (and others) didn't
> really bat an eye about this.
I know people who've had experience with simple broken legs, and three weeks or a month in the hospital. Doctors
seemed to consider it too much trouble to have them get around and care for themselves at home. It would be a
different matter if it were pleasant to be confined to a hospital bed.
Paulrus
A dentist will NOT be pulling my wife's teeth - they will be done at
an oral surgeon's office. She will be under general anesthetic and
all 4 will be pulled at once (they are all severely impacted). This
is how mine were done, my mom's, my dad's, my sisters, and basically
all of my friends, so apparently it's not too uncommon here.
The office here in the US said the reason they do 4 at once is that
they don't want to put the patient under general anesthetic more than
once if they can help it - it is too hard on the body. They said the
most visits they would do is 2, but this particular office would not
do that unless there was a very good reason - they want to minimize
the risk of putting people under more than once.
My gathering from this disucssion is that in Japan it's a little
economics and a little bit "patient care" to spread the extractions
over a few days. I also understand that the typical Japanese person,
like my wife, would simply say "sho ga nai" when they would tell her
it's going to take 4 visits to pull all of them.
Thanks for all of your replies. It's been very interesting reading.
Paul
Jason Cormier
<jet...@deja.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 02 Jul 2003 03:59:18 GMT, Jason ...
>>
>> General....as in put you under? Egads, the medical (and this includes
>> dental) profession prefers not to use general unless necessary as it is
>> riskier.
>
> Generals for day surgery is quite common in advanced nations such as God's
> Own,
> especially when minor surgery is performed that otherwise requires strong
> local
> anesthetic and is in awkward places.
Hmmmmm, sounds like a simplistic dependence on general anaesthetics.
>> What a backwards nation of medical cowboys this nation of Austria
>> must be.
>>
>
> Wisdom teeth extraction requires surgery, that is the job of a surgeon not a
> tooth techinician.
I guess you must have incompetent (or at least minimally trained) dentists
in that dry nation of yours.
Kevin Wayne Williams
> On Wed, 02 Jul 2003 04:45:33 GMT, Kevin ...
>
>>Brett Robson wrote:
>>
>>>What barbaric countries you all live in. In God's Own (TM) we go to an oral
>>>surgeon to have wisdom removed, not a normal dentist. Most of us go to a
>>>hospital for a general anesthetic. Can't believe anyone would let a dentist cut
>>>open their gums and hack at their jaw.
>>
>>Not all wisdoms are impacted, or a real big deal of any kind. I had my
>>upper left pulled a couple of years ago. Took 5 minutes with a pair of
>>pliers,
>
>
> and an incision in the gum?
No incision. My lower left was completely missing ... not so much as a
root. That left the upper left with nothing to bite against, so it was
slowly drifting sideways. It was a simple extraction.
KWW
Kevin Gowen
> If there is anything more bizarre and fucked up than the Sepponian
> health insurance situation, I don't want to know about it. I
> (re)injured a knee and my doctor recommended surgery. The hassle with
> the insurance company to get it approved was unbelievable. I finally
> got on the phone myself to a sweet young thang at the insurance
> company and asked her what the deal was. Her words: "My supervisor,
> Cricket, has to approve all surgeries".
>
> I gave up.
>
> My health care depended not on the judgment of a physician, but on
> some inaccessible chick by the name of "Cricket".
I think that Americans overuse health insurance to an alarming degree.
Insurance of any kind is "oh shit" money.
Oh shit! My house burned down! (here's your check)
Oh shit! My car was crashed in a wreck! (here's your check)
Oh shit! A crane fell on me and I need emergency care! (here's your check)
Oh shit! I'm dead! (here's the check for the fam)
This odd practice of using insurance to pay for the routine and expected
expenses of maintaining one's health such as routine checkups, prescription
medication, etc. is simply mind-boggling.Oh, and let's not forget the folks
who think it is an employer's duty to provide heath insurance. I actually
know a waiter in this town who thinks that his employer (a small restaurant
in a strip mall) should be providing him health insurance.
Kevin Gowen
I wonder if this is this case, or if it is symptomatic of the state health
care system. Since the state is covering the vast majority of the expenses,
people and doctors have little incentive to refrain some engaging in
unnecessary procedures. See how far a month's hospital stay for a simple
broken leg would fly in a country where people actually pay for their health
care. Japan is my only benchmark for a country with such a health care
system so I'd be curious to know if things like a month's hospital stay for
a broken ankle/leg would be common in other countries with state health
care.
>> Japanese really like to not question the way things are done in Japan
>> and simply accept it as the best solution. That's why their economy
>> is
>> doing so well.
>>
>> John W.
--
Sarah Larios
"Declan Murphy" wrote in message news:3F024439...@hotmail.com...
> Rindler Sigurd wrote:
>
> > But it is unreasonable to extract four wisdom teeth at once. Infection
is
> > one reason, and there are often complications with horizontally grown
teeth
> > of this kind. I had once just one removed, and it turned out to be a
major
> > operation because of the forementioned reasons.
>
> Not sure if it was unreasonable, but I had all four wisdom teeth removed
> at once. An overnight stay in a hospital with the four removed under a
> general anaesthetic. The stitches came out about 10 days or so later.
> Due to pain I couldn't eat many different foods, so for about a
> fortnight friends and family preferred to stay "up wind".
Just to expand the survey base...
I also had all four wisdom teeth taken out at once. (This was in the US.) It
was under general anaesthesia, but I went home the same day. No stitches,
just a lot of blood. And I couldn't eat anything except banana pudding for
like a week. Mostly I just stayed hopped up on Demerol (which also sucked,
because Demerol on an empty stomach makes you nauseous as all get out, and I
had enough trouble getting down more than two spoonfuls of banana pudding.)
When I first started reading this thread, my response was, "Why on earth
would you extend such a painful operation over 4 visits?" But now
remembering how much pain I was in, maybe it would have been easier if
they'd done one side at a time, and let it heal before doing the other side.
(Also the damn dentist, er, excuse me, oral surgeon, snipped a nerve
somewhere. Part of my tongue has been numb ever since.)
--Sarah
Eric Takabayashi
Strangely enough the only people I've known in Japan up and around on crutches
for weeks on end, even going to work, after knee injuries and surgery, were
foreigners. One even flew home to have the surgery done.
Eric Takabayashi
> Michael Cash wrote:
> > If there is anything more bizarre and fucked up than the Sepponian
> > health insurance situation, I don't want to know about it. I
> > (re)injured a knee and my doctor recommended surgery. The hassle with
> > the insurance company to get it approved was unbelievable. I finally
> > got on the phone myself to a sweet young thang at the insurance
> > company and asked her what the deal was. Her words: "My supervisor,
> > Cricket, has to approve all surgeries".
> >
> > I gave up.
> >
> > My health care depended not on the judgment of a physician, but on
> > some inaccessible chick by the name of "Cricket".
>
> I think that Americans overuse health insurance to an alarming degree.
> Insurance of any kind is "oh shit" money.
> Oh shit! My house burned down! (here's your check)
> Oh shit! My car was crashed in a wreck! (here's your check)
> Oh shit! A crane fell on me and I need emergency care! (here's your check)
> Oh shit! I'm dead! (here's the check for the fam)
>
> This odd practice of using insurance to pay for the routine and expected
> expenses of maintaining one's health such as routine checkups, prescription
> medication, etc. is simply mind-boggling.Oh, and let's not forget the folks
> who think it is an employer's duty to provide heath insurance. I actually
> know a waiter in this town who thinks that his employer (a small restaurant
> in a strip mall) should be providing him health insurance.
Will you not look for such benefits in your employment package?
I know a woman (among many I've met) who *proudly* announced she had just quit
her job (and was "very happy"), and after hearing her dissatisfaction with her
old job, I suggested joining a well known temp agency to find the kind of work
she would like and have the kind of freedom from responsibility she explicitly
craved, she said that she *might* try it, AFTER collecting some unemployment.
This woman is apparently one of those many people, almost always women, I've
known who thinks they are entitled to receive hundreds of thousands, perhaps
even millions of yen, and enjoy a vacation of up to 330 days (perhaps even
traveling and shopping abroad), because they've paid a few hundred yen a month
in unemployment insurance, while other people even in a small place like
Fukuyama, like another woman I know, are only allowed to have ONE
discretionary holiday per year at Boon. This other woman was told this was the
first and last time she would be able to have such a day off.
Eric Takabayashi
> "Declan Murphy" wrote in message news:3F024439...@hotmail.com...
> > Rindler Sigurd wrote:
> >
> > > But it is unreasonable to extract four wisdom teeth at once. Infection
> is
> > > one reason, and there are often complications with horizontally grown
> teeth
> > > of this kind. I had once just one removed, and it turned out to be a
> major
> > > operation because of the forementioned reasons.
> >
> > Not sure if it was unreasonable, but I had all four wisdom teeth removed
> > at once. An overnight stay in a hospital with the four removed under a
> > general anaesthetic. The stitches came out about 10 days or so later.
> > Due to pain I couldn't eat many different foods, so for about a
> > fortnight friends and family preferred to stay "up wind".
>
> Just to expand the survey base...
>
> I also had all four wisdom teeth taken out at once. (This was in the US.) It
> was under general anaesthesia, but I went home the same day. No stitches,
> just a lot of blood. And I couldn't eat anything except banana pudding for
> like a week. Mostly I just stayed hopped up on Demerol (which also sucked,
> because Demerol on an empty stomach makes you nauseous as all get out, and I
> had enough trouble getting down more than two spoonfuls of banana pudding.)
What is this persisting pain or inability to eat that people are mentioning
after tooth extraction? I do not recall those. I didn't use aspirin for my
braces either, but I believe having braces tightened and my palate split was
much worse.
Kevin Gowen
Bullseye. just knew you would respond to this.
> Will you not look for such benefits in your employment package?
Not particularly. I mean, it's nice if it's there but it would not be a deal
maker or breaker.
> I know a woman (among many I've met) who *proudly* announced she had
> just quit her job (and was "very happy"), and after hearing her
> dissatisfaction with her old job, I suggested joining a well known
> temp agency to find the kind of work she would like and have the kind
> of freedom from responsibility she explicitly craved, she said that
> she *might* try it, AFTER collecting some unemployment.
Sheesh.
> This woman is apparently one of those many people, almost always
> women, I've known who thinks they are entitled to receive hundreds of
> thousands, perhaps even millions of yen, and enjoy a vacation of up
> to 330 days (perhaps even traveling and shopping abroad), because
> they've paid a few hundred yen a month in unemployment insurance,
Starting to understand why I hate entitlement programs? I know of a woman,
divorced with one child, who is now living with a man whom she appears to
love very much. Guess what her stated reason for not marrying the man is.
> while other people even in a small place like Fukuyama, like another
> woman I know, are only allowed to have ONE discretionary holiday per
> year at Boon. This other woman was told this was the first and last
> time she would be able to have such a day off.
What's Boon? Was it an annual company practice of bestowing a nice thing
(boon) upon an employee?
Eric Takabayashi
No, because this woman is not a victim. If she were denied employment
opportunities for being a woman, or "too old", like my wife explicitly has been
(and other women I know continue to experience) despite her education and years
of relevant experience, as opposed to being simply lazy or selfish, she would
deserve to receive the money during those times they cannot find work.
You mean entitlement programs like those which benefited (only) males and
whites or white male property owners, or explicitly EXcluded women or blacks,
contributing to much of the inequality existing today?
http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0625-02.htm
Published on Wednesday, June 25, 2003 by CommonDreams.org
White Affirmative Action
by Betsy Leondar-Wright
How have I gained by being white? The Supreme Court's mixed decisions on
whether the University of Michigan may consider race in selecting students set
me wondering about what preferences my own family might have received over the
years
Like most people without inherited wealth, I tend to see my success as the
result of my own hard work and abilities. My retirement accounts and the
down-payment on my house were saved dollar-by-dollar out of my paychecks. I
worked my way up from minimum wage jobs to become a salaried professional.
Couldn't someone of any race have done the same?
To see all the effects of race requires looking back a few generations. I left
college with no student loans. Why was my father able to pay for my college
education? As a World War II-era veteran, he went to graduate school on the GI
Bill and got a subsidized mortgage from the Veterans Administration, benefits
from which most veterans of color were excluded. As a homeowner, he got the
mortgage interest deduction, a tax break unavailable to the majority of people
of color who were renters.
Looking back another generation, my grandparents had Social Security benefits
when they reached age 65 in the 1960s, relieving my father from the
responsibility of supporting his parents. Since agricultural and domestic
workers were excluded from the original Social Security law passed in 1935,
most people of color in my grandparents' generation put little or nothing into
the Social Security system, and so got little or nothing at retirement. People
of color my father's age were more likely to be supporting their parents and so
less able to pay for their children's college.
If I'd been born a person of color in 1956, the odds are very likely that I'd
be less well off today. In 2001, the typical white family had $120,000 in net
worth (assets minus debts), seven times as much as the $17,000 net worth of the
typical family of color, according to new Federal Reserve data. Most white
people are homeowners with retirement accounts thanks to government policies
that boosted our parents', grandparents' and ancestors' assets. The financial
benefits of affirmative action programs are dwarfed by the benefits of, say,
the Homestead Acts of 1862, which gave millions of acres to white settlers, and
which excluded people of color.
[snip]
> I know of a woman,
> divorced with one child, who is now living with a man whom she appears to
> love very much. Guess what her stated reason for not marrying the man is.
Welfare?
If so, recall the actual nature or state of welfare recipients as cited by
Pangas, as opposed to Reagan's publicized fictions.
> > while other people even in a small place like Fukuyama, like another
> > woman I know, are only allowed to have ONE discretionary holiday per
> > year at Boon. This other woman was told this was the first and last
> > time she would be able to have such a day off.
>
> What's Boon? Was it an annual company practice of bestowing a nice thing
> (boon) upon an employee?
It's Obon, sent through the automated spell check.
Kevin Gowen
> Kevin Gowen wrote:
>
.
>>> This woman is apparently one of those many people, almost always
>>> women, I've known who thinks they are entitled to receive hundreds
>>> of thousands, perhaps even millions of yen, and enjoy a vacation of
>>> up
>>> to 330 days (perhaps even traveling and shopping abroad), because
>>> they've paid a few hundred yen a month in unemployment insurance,
>>
>> Starting to understand why I hate entitlement programs?
>
> No, because this woman is not a victim. If she were denied employment
> opportunities for being a woman, or "too old", like my wife
> explicitly has been (and other women I know continue to experience)
> despite her education and years of relevant experience, as opposed to
> being simply lazy or selfish, she would deserve to receive the money
> during those times they cannot find work.
Yes, since she (I presume) paid into the system, she deserves it. Of course,
she only deserves it for a limited time.
> You mean entitlement programs like those which benefited (only) males
> and whites or white male property owners, or explicitly EXcluded
> women or blacks, contributing to much of the inequality existing
> today?
Sure. I don't like any entitlement programs. Of course, the commentary you
quote below is so ridiculously slanted that I cannot believe you are wasting
my time with it. Here's one example of its many flaws:
"When President Bush weighed in with the Supreme Court against the
University of Michigan’s affirmative action policy, he was acting within
this long tradition of the federal government promoting the advancement of
white Americans. There has been no legal challenge to Michigan’s preference
for “legacy” applicants (children of alumni), or to the preference given
to low-income white students. Only the boost to qualified applicants of
color was attacked."
Has it occurred to this goofy bitch why there has been no legal challenge to
legacy/low-income preferences? Could it be because the Constitution doesn't
apply to either of them? The Constitution does apply to racial preferences.
She also contradicts herself. She whines about preferences to low-income
white students above, but then says:
"What would it take to eliminate the racial wealth gap? Race-based
affirmative action in college admissions, hiring, and promotion is just one
of many elements needed to assist all low-income Americans to build basic
assets."
So, she does care about low-income folks, but only if they aren't white. And
of course, her argument has one glaring, fatal flow that she does not even
touch. If the federal government has a "yea whites!" policy of promoting the
advancement of whites, how does she account for the fact that Oriental
Americans have a higher net worth than whites? Same for education. Why is
this alleged federal pro-whites policy keeping down blacks but not
Orientals? Could it be...cultural? I don't see Orientals committing a
disproportionate amount of crime, having 2/3 of their children out of
wedlock, or listening to music that talks about penises and gold knives.
> http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0625-02.htm
[snip]
Eric, please don't do this when replying to me. Just post the link and quote
a teaser paragraph or two.
>> I know of a woman,
>> divorced with one child, who is now living with a man whom she
>> appears to love very much. Guess what her stated reason for not
>> marrying the man is.
>
> Welfare?
Yes. This welfare program is called the Earned Income Tax Credit. She plans
to use her check this year to put in a pool.
> If so, recall the actual nature or state of welfare recipients as
> cited by Pangas, as opposed to Reagan's publicized fictions.
Actually, it was Reagan who expanded the EITC.
>>> while other people even in a small place like Fukuyama, like another
>>> woman I know, are only allowed to have ONE discretionary holiday per
>>> year at Boon. This other woman was told this was the first and last
>>> time she would be able to have such a day off.
>>
>> What's Boon? Was it an annual company practice of bestowing a nice
>> thing (boon) upon an employee?
>
> It's Obon, sent through the automated spell check.
I know. I was simply being humorous.
Eric Takabayashi
> I don't like any entitlement programs.
Yet whites, males, and property owners benefited anyway, while women and blacks
did not until more recently, resulting in some glaring inequalities. Or does
that not matter because it's in the past?
> Of course, the commentary you
> quote below is so ridiculously slanted that I cannot believe you are wasting
> my time with it.
"I" am not wasting "your" time at the computer.
> Here's one example of its many flaws:
>
> "When President Bush weighed in with the Supreme Court against the
> University of Michigan’s affirmative action policy, he was acting within
> this long tradition of the federal government promoting the advancement of
> white Americans. There has been no legal challenge to Michigan’s preference
> for “legacy” applicants (children of alumni), or to the preference given
> to low-income white students. Only the boost to qualified applicants of
> color was attacked."
>
> Has it occurred to this goofy bitch why there has been no legal challenge to
> legacy/low-income preferences? Could it be because the Constitution doesn't
> apply to either of them?
Do people go to lawyers or file suits only if the Constitution applies? Do
whites gripe so loudly that they can't get into schools because of kids of
alumni and football players or people from certain regions with lower grades,
as opposed to blacks with lower grades? Just two weeks ago I had to deal with
some woman who claimed the university in her home state was 60% Asians, her
allegedly underqualified Asian friend got in, and thus it was very difficult
for whites to get in, as if it was racial preferences that got Asians in.
Racial quotas to help other minorities would actually hurt Asians, as seen at
UC, where the Berkeley student body used to be 27%.
> The Constitution does apply to racial preferences.
>
> She also contradicts herself. She whines about preferences to low-income
> white students above,
What whining about low income white students? She merely pointed out low income
students who happen to be white, as one group of people not attacked for being
admitted into school. Do you also believe she was whining about preferences to
children of alumni?
Does your being against all entitlement programs also mean you do not support
admission preferences for those from certain geographic regions (such as
discounts for state residents), alumni children, low income people of all
races, or athletes? Are you against academic scholarships?
> but then says:
> "What would it take to eliminate the racial wealth gap? Race-based
> affirmative action in college admissions, hiring, and promotion is just one
> of many elements needed to assist all low-income Americans to build basic
> assets."
>
> So, she does care about low-income folks, but only if they aren't white.
What makes you say that, when she says "all" low-income Americans?
> And
> of course, her argument has one glaring, fatal flow that she does not even
> touch. If the federal government has a "yea whites!" policy of promoting the
> advancement of whites, how does she account for the fact that Oriental
> Americans have a higher net worth than whites? Same for education.
Perhaps they worked and studied more or harder, on average, or were lucky like
my family. My family certainly did not work or study 50 times harder than
average blacks, and if they had purchased property (like many blacks) in an
area with low or flat property values instead of what turned out to be
immensely desirable 30 years later, they could have been poor.
> Why is
> this alleged federal pro-whites policy keeping down blacks but not
> Orientals? Could it be...cultural?
Yes. Though there are also different classes of Asians, including more recent
immigrant or refugees in abject poverty with little English skill or formal
education, they probably don't have the emotional baggage blacks do from
centuries of inequality, nor suffer the same kind of discrimination. See how
you are characterizing Asians as opposed to blacks, below.
> I don't see Orientals committing a
> disproportionate amount of crime, having 2/3 of their children out of
> wedlock, or listening to music that talks about penises and gold knives.
Perhaps because they don't live or think the same way. But if you look at
Asians on the bottom rungs, you might realize they are quite different from the
"model" Asians who attend Berkeley, own a chain of businesses, or preside over
high profile trials on TV.
I don't know any songs about gold knives. I heard some about singer's choice of
footwear, an alleged love potion with disappointing results, and their love of
women with wide hips.
> > http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0625-02.htm
>
> [snip]
>
> Eric, please don't do this when replying to me. Just post the link and quote
> a teaser paragraph or two.
I need to post the relevant parts about affirmative action for whites, lest you
ignore the waste of your time altogether.
> >> I know of a woman,
> >> divorced with one child, who is now living with a man whom she
> >> appears to love very much. Guess what her stated reason for not
> >> marrying the man is.
> >
> > Welfare?
>
> Yes. This welfare program is called the Earned Income Tax Credit. She plans
> to use her check this year to put in a pool.
Perhaps you'd like to report such behavior that they not waste your money. I
knew a mother out of wedlock who worked for cash as a housekeeper, and
allegedly used drugs. Luckily, she no longer does so.
BTW, would you happen to know if that woman's ex husband is fulfilling any
financial obligations he may have to the woman and child?
> > If so, recall the actual nature or state of welfare recipients as
> > cited by Pangas, as opposed to Reagan's publicized fictions.
>
> Actually, it was Reagan who expanded the EITC.
So what is your problem with it, other than the obvious abuses which could and
would probably be happily handled if they were reported?
Kevin Gowen
> Kevin Gowen wrote:
>
>> I don't like any entitlement programs.
>
> Yet whites, males, and property owners benefited anyway, while women
> and blacks did not until more recently, resulting in some glaring
> inequalities. Or does that not matter because it's in the past?
Did I ever say I liked any of those things?
>> Of course, the commentary you
>> quote below is so ridiculously slanted that I cannot believe you are
>> wasting my time with it.
>
> "I" am not wasting "your" time at the computer.
Sure you are. Why the hiply ironic quotes?
> Do people go to lawyers or file suits only if the Constitution
> applies?
No, but that has nothing to do with what I said.
> Do whites gripe so loudly that they can't get into schools
> because of kids of alumni and football players or people from certain
> regions with lower grades, as opposed to blacks with lower grades?
I don't know any white who do that, so I cannot respond to straw man
arguments involving them.
> Just two weeks ago I had to deal with some woman who claimed the
> university in her home state was 60% Asians, her allegedly
> underqualified Asian friend got in, and thus it was very difficult
> for whites to get in, as if it was racial preferences that got Asians
> in.
I'm sorry that you had to deal with that whiner.
> Racial quotas to help other minorities would actually hurt
> Asians, as seen at UC, where the Berkeley student body used to be
> 27%.
Exactly.
>> The Constitution does apply to racial preferences.
>>
>> She also contradicts herself. She whines about preferences to
>> low-income white students above,
>
> What whining about low income white students?
You mention it in the next sentence.
> She merely pointed out
> low income students who happen to be white, as one group of people
> not attacked for being admitted into school. Do you also believe she
> was whining about preferences to children of alumni?
Yes.
> Does your being against all entitlement programs also mean you do not
> support admission preferences for those from certain geographic
> regions (such as discounts for state residents),
A discount for state residents is not a admissions preference or an
entitlement. It makes perfect sense. The state university is funded by the
residents' taxes. Therefore, it is appropriate that those who pay the taxes
that support the university pay less in tuition. Otherwise, they end up
paying more than the out-of-staters.
> alumni children, low
> income people of all races, or athletes?
None of those things are entitlements. I think that a college application
should have no name, race, or any other such information on in. A student
who applies to a university is issues a serial number by an officer of the
admissions office, and only that officer knows the names and serial numbers.
It would be a system very similar to the blind grading at most American law
schools, where we put a serial number on all of our exams and assignments
rather than our names.
> Are you against academic
> scholarships?
No. Again, a scholarship is not an entitlement.
>> but then says:
>> "What would it take to eliminate the racial wealth gap? Race-based
>> affirmative action in college admissions, hiring, and promotion is
>> just one of many elements needed to assist all low-income Americans
>> to build basic assets."
>>
>> So, she does care about low-income folks, but only if they aren't
>> white.
>
> What makes you say that, when she says "all" low-income Americans?
Because she says that race-based affirmative action is the means. How does
race-based policy assist all of them?
>> And
>> of course, her argument has one glaring, fatal flow that she does
>> not even touch. If the federal government has a "yea whites!" policy
>> of promoting the advancement of whites, how does she account for the
>> fact that Oriental Americans have a higher net worth than whites?
>> Same for education.
>
> Perhaps they worked and studied more or harder, on average,
Bingo.
> or were
> lucky like my family.
Again this appeal to luck.
> My family certainly did not work or study 50
> times harder than average blacks, and if they had purchased property
> (like many blacks) in an area with low or flat property values
> instead of what turned out to be immensely desirable 30 years later,
> they could have been poor.
What's all this "50 times" nonsense?
>> Why is
>> this alleged federal pro-whites policy keeping down blacks but not
>> Orientals? Could it be...cultural?
>
> Yes. Though there are also different classes of Asians, including
> more recent immigrant or refugees in abject poverty with little
> English skill or formal education, they probably don't have the
> emotional baggage blacks do from centuries of inequality, nor suffer
> the same kind of discrimination.
Really? Orientals don't have a history of centures of inequality and
discrimination in this country? You don't have a Chinaman's chance of
getting me to swallow that one.
> See how you are characterizing
> Asians as opposed to blacks, below.
>
>> I don't see Orientals committing a
>> disproportionate amount of crime, having 2/3 of their children out of
>> wedlock, or listening to music that talks about penises and gold
>> knives.
>
> Perhaps because they don't live or think the same way. But if you
> look at Asians on the bottom rungs, you might realize they are quite
> different from the "model" Asians who attend Berkeley, own a chain of
> businesses, or preside over high profile trials on TV.
I never said anything about model Orientals. I am speaking of averages.
> I don't know any songs about gold knives. I heard some about singer's
> choice of footwear, an alleged love potion with disappointing
> results, and their love of women with wide hips.
I like the old school hip hops that talk about sneakers and people who talk
too much, not the ones that talk about drugs and killing people.
>>> http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0625-02.htm
>>
>> [snip]
>>
>> Eric, please don't do this when replying to me. Just post the link
>> and quote a teaser paragraph or two.
>
> I need to post the relevant parts about affirmative action for
> whites, lest you ignore the waste of your time altogether.
The teaser will suffice.
>>>> I know of a woman,
>>>> divorced with one child, who is now living with a man whom she
>>>> appears to love very much. Guess what her stated reason for not
>>>> marrying the man is.
>>>
>>> Welfare?
>>
>> Yes. This welfare program is called the Earned Income Tax Credit.
>> She plans to use her check this year to put in a pool.
>
> Perhaps you'd like to report such behavior that they not waste your
> money.
Nothing to report. It's legal behavior.
> I knew a mother out of wedlock who worked for cash as a
> housekeeper, and allegedly used drugs. Luckily, she no longer does so.
I am glad that she cleaned up her act.
> BTW, would you happen to know if that woman's ex husband is
> fulfilling any financial obligations he may have to the woman and
> child?
I do not. I presume so, as she has never groused about it.
>>> If so, recall the actual nature or state of welfare recipients as
>>> cited by Pangas, as opposed to Reagan's publicized fictions.
>>
>> Actually, it was Reagan who expanded the EITC.
>
> So what is your problem with it, other than the obvious abuses which
> could and would probably be happily handled if they were reported?
My problem with it is that it is welfare. Do you think I base my opinion of
policies based on who enacted them? (Ford gave us the EITC, BTW) I think
Clinton's welfare reform was great, and I think Bush's prescription drug
entitlement for Medicare sucks.
Greg Macdonald
spake:
>Just to expand the survey base...
>
>I also had all four wisdom teeth taken out at once. (This was in the US.) It
>was under general anaesthesia, but I went home the same day. No stitches,
>just a lot of blood. And I couldn't eat anything except banana pudding for
>like a week. Mostly I just stayed hopped up on Demerol (which also sucked,
>because Demerol on an empty stomach makes you nauseous as all get out, and I
>had enough trouble getting down more than two spoonfuls of banana pudding.)
My Canadian experience with getting all four out at once was smooth
sailing. The dentist used a "heavy local" (his words), because of
concerns about using a general. Didn't matter to me, I might as well
have slept through the whole thing. I was home a few hours later, with
some stitches and very minor swelling. Didn't take anything stronger
than a Tylenol-3, ate milkshakes for a few days and was back at work
in a warehouse within 5 days.
Eric Takabayashi
> Eric Takabayashi wrote:
> > Kevin Gowen wrote:
> >
> >> I don't like any entitlement programs.
> >
> > Yet whites, males, and property owners benefited anyway, while women
> > and blacks did not until more recently, resulting in some glaring
> > inequalities. Or does that not matter because it's in the past?
>
> Did I ever say I liked any of those things?
No, but the people benefited anyway, while women and non whites were denied and
kept down.
> >> Of course, the commentary you
> >> quote below is so ridiculously slanted that I cannot believe you are
> >> wasting my time with it.
> >
> > "I" am not wasting "your" time at the computer.
>
> Sure you are.
How?
> Why the hiply ironic quotes?
Because it is not me wasting your time at your computer.
> > Do people go to lawyers or file suits only if the Constitution
> > applies?
>
> No, but that has nothing to do with what I said.
Nor does what you said discount the fact that race of allegedly less qualified
students is the only issue the complainants publicly took issue with, despite
explicit reports that race was worth the same 20 points as athletic ability
toward admission, and people blame not getting into school on racial
preferences.
> > Do whites gripe so loudly that they can't get into schools
> > because of kids of alumni and football players or people from certain
> > regions with lower grades, as opposed to blacks with lower grades?
>
> I don't know any white who do that,
Precisely. I have heard jokes about athletes at school, but I have never heard
of people complaining that they couldn't get into school because an athlete was
in "their" place.
> so I cannot respond to straw man arguments involving them.
You already did.
> > Just two weeks ago I had to deal with some woman who claimed the
> > university in her home state was 60% Asians, her allegedly
> > underqualified Asian friend got in, and thus it was very difficult
> > for whites to get in, as if it was racial preferences that got Asians
> > in.
>
> I'm sorry that you had to deal with that whiner.
She just went home. I guess she didn't like being a white woman in Japan,
either.
> > Racial quotas to help other minorities would actually hurt
> > Asians, as seen at UC, where the Berkeley student body used to be
> > 27%.
>
> Exactly.
And I'll remind you I am not in favor of affirmative action or quotas, BTW.
> >> The Constitution does apply to racial preferences.
> >>
> >> She also contradicts herself. She whines about preferences to
> >> low-income white students above,
> >
> > What whining about low income white students?
>
> You mention it in the next sentence.
>
> > She merely pointed out
> > low income students who happen to be white, as one group of people
> > not attacked for being admitted into school. Do you also believe she
> > was whining about preferences to children of alumni?
>
> Yes.
Why do you not believe she (as have other writers and articles) was simply
questioning the logic of people blaming racial preferences (as opposed to all
other accepted types), for their not being admitted into school?
> > Does your being against all entitlement programs also mean you do not
> > support admission preferences for those from certain geographic
> > regions (such as discounts for state residents),
>
> A discount for state residents is not a admissions preference or an
> entitlement.
Even when the valedictorian of my high school (white male, BTW) who went on to
be the valedictorian of my college department, born and raised in California,
whose father owned two businesses in California before they moved, was
explicitly denied from the UC system because the UC system said they already
had enough qualified applicants from in state?
> It makes perfect sense. The state university is funded by the
> residents' taxes.
And what of residents with no children, who never attended that university? Why
do they pay?
> Therefore, it is appropriate that those who pay the taxes
> that support the university pay less in tuition.
Even if the students or their parents are not actually paying that state tax
(parents not residents, and students have no job in state), or are not actually
intending to settle down as residents, but merely claimed residency to enjoy
about a 70% discount on tuition?
> Otherwise, they end up
> paying more than the out-of-staters.
>
> > alumni children, low
> > income people of all races, or athletes?
>
> None of those things are entitlements.
Even if they are assigned the same value as race (20 points) in admissions (150
points overall)?
> I think that a college application
> should have no name, race, or any other such information on in. A student
> who applies to a university is issues a serial number by an officer of the
> admissions office, and only that officer knows the names and serial numbers.
> It would be a system very similar to the blind grading at most American law
> schools, where we put a serial number on all of our exams and assignments
> rather than our names.
I can see that would be more fair.
What about school name or town of residence?
> > Are you against academic
> > scholarships?
>
> No. Again, a scholarship is not an entitlement.
Why should someone get money even if they do not need it, just because they got
good grades? If people with money want to go to the school, they can pay, too.
> >> but then says:
> >> "What would it take to eliminate the racial wealth gap? Race-based
> >> affirmative action in college admissions, hiring, and promotion is
> >> just one of many elements needed to assist all low-income Americans
> >> to build basic assets."
> >>
> >> So, she does care about low-income folks, but only if they aren't
> >> white.
> >
> > What makes you say that, when she says "all" low-income Americans?
>
> Because she says that race-based affirmative action is the means. How does
> race-based policy assist all of them?
>
> >> And
> >> of course, her argument has one glaring, fatal flow that she does
> >> not even touch. If the federal government has a "yea whites!" policy
> >> of promoting the advancement of whites, how does she account for the
> >> fact that Oriental Americans have a higher net worth than whites?
> >> Same for education.
> >
> > Perhaps they worked and studied more or harder, on average,
>
> Bingo.
>
> > or were lucky like my family.
>
> Again this appeal to luck.
I am under no illusion that my immigrant family's real estate savvy in
purchasing cattle land 30 years before it became a suburb for caucasian
professionals played a part in their success. They money they saved was work.
Their property value was simple luck.
> > My family certainly did not work or study 50
> > times harder than average blacks, and if they had purchased property
> > (like many blacks) in an area with low or flat property values
> > instead of what turned out to be immensely desirable 30 years later,
> > they could have been poor.
>
> What's all this "50 times" nonsense?
My family is worth much more than the $17,000 net worth of the average black. I
had about that much when I graduated from school. I do not claim to have
studied or worked hard. But I easily can see why many people aren't able to do
what I did.
> >> Why is
> >> this alleged federal pro-whites policy keeping down blacks but not
> >> Orientals? Could it be...cultural?
> >
> > Yes. Though there are also different classes of Asians, including
> > more recent immigrant or refugees in abject poverty with little
> > English skill or formal education, they probably don't have the
> > emotional baggage blacks do from centuries of inequality, nor suffer
> > the same kind of discrimination.
>
> Really? Orientals don't have a history of centures of inequality and
> discrimination in this country?
Not like blacks. See the difference for yourself.
> You don't have a Chinaman's chance of
> getting me to swallow that one.
Japanese like my grandfather chose to go to the US to make some money, and he
managed to make something of himself and his family. Not even WWII has affected
the Japanese American community the way slavery and centuries of discrimination
has affected blacks.
> > See how you are characterizing
> > Asians as opposed to blacks, below.
> >
> >> I don't see Orientals committing a
> >> disproportionate amount of crime, having 2/3 of their children out of
> >> wedlock, or listening to music that talks about penises and gold
> >> knives.
> >
> > Perhaps because they don't live or think the same way. But if you
> > look at Asians on the bottom rungs, you might realize they are quite
> > different from the "model" Asians who attend Berkeley, own a chain of
> > businesses, or preside over high profile trials on TV.
>
> I never said anything about model Orientals. I am speaking of averages.
Then please note successful black people are similar to other successful
people, and poor people of all kinds also have similar problems. It just so
happens that many black people have problems, such as nearly half being in
poverty, and up to 60% of families not having fathers or husbands around.
That's a lot to grow up with. If Japan were a society half made up of single
mothers or those in poverty, they'd have more serious problems, as well.
> >>>> I know of a woman,
> >>>> divorced with one child, who is now living with a man whom she
> >>>> appears to love very much. Guess what her stated reason for not
> >>>> marrying the man is.
> >>>
> >>> Welfare?
> >>
> >> Yes. This welfare program is called the Earned Income Tax Credit.
> >> She plans to use her check this year to put in a pool.
> >
> > Perhaps you'd like to report such behavior that they not waste your
> > money.
>
> Nothing to report. It's legal behavior.
Is it also according to department regulation?
> > I knew a mother out of wedlock who worked for cash as a
> > housekeeper, and allegedly used drugs. Luckily, she no longer does so.
>
> I am glad that she cleaned up her act.
Yes, she did, and it could have been in response to her daughter being
diagnosed with a serious medical condition that was not the family's fault.
> > BTW, would you happen to know if that woman's ex husband is
> > fulfilling any financial obligations he may have to the woman and
> > child?
>
> I do not. I presume so, as she has never groused about it.
I was not aware welfare payments were like cash, to be used for swimming pools.
> >>> If so, recall the actual nature or state of welfare recipients as
> >>> cited by Pangas, as opposed to Reagan's publicized fictions.
> >>
> >> Actually, it was Reagan who expanded the EITC.
> >
> > So what is your problem with it, other than the obvious abuses which
> > could and would probably be happily handled if they were reported?
>
> My problem with it is that it is welfare. Do you think I base my opinion of
> policies based on who enacted them? (Ford gave us the EITC, BTW) I think
> Clinton's welfare reform was great, and I think Bush's prescription drug
> entitlement for Medicare sucks.
Other than being expensive, why does it suck and why is it entitlement?
Sarah Larios
"Eric Takabayashi" wrote in message news:3F02F391...@yahoo.co.jp...
> Sarah Larios wrote:
> > I also had all four wisdom teeth taken out at once. (This was in the
US.) It
> > was under general anaesthesia, but I went home the same day. No
stitches,
> > just a lot of blood. And I couldn't eat anything except banana pudding
for
> > like a week. Mostly I just stayed hopped up on Demerol (which also
sucked,
> > because Demerol on an empty stomach makes you nauseous as all get out,
and I
> > had enough trouble getting down more than two spoonfuls of banana
pudding.)
>
> What is this persisting pain or inability to eat that people are
mentioning
> after tooth extraction? I do not recall those. I didn't use aspirin for my
> braces either, but I believe having braces tightened and my palate split
was
> much worse.
Well, I think it depends on the situation with the tooth. I remember having
a couple teeth pulled before I got braces, and those didn't hurt too much
all. (And I agree, getting braces tightened hurts like CRAZY.) But my wisdom
teeth were impacted -- they were coming in sideways, and hadn't broken
through the gums. So the oral surgeon had to cut into my jaw to remove them.
So it wasn't just like plucking them out.
--Sarah
Brett Robson
>
>Michael Cash wrote:
>> If there is anything more bizarre and fucked up than the Sepponian
>> health insurance situation, I don't want to know about it. I
>> (re)injured a knee and my doctor recommended surgery. The hassle with
>> the insurance company to get it approved was unbelievable. I finally
>> got on the phone myself to a sweet young thang at the insurance
>> company and asked her what the deal was. Her words: "My supervisor,
>> Cricket, has to approve all surgeries".
>>
>> I gave up.
>>
>> My health care depended not on the judgment of a physician, but on
>> some inaccessible chick by the name of "Cricket".
>
>I think that Americans overuse health insurance to an alarming degree.
>Insurance of any kind is "oh shit" money.
>Oh shit! My house burned down! (here's your check)
>Oh shit! My car was crashed in a wreck! (here's your check)
>Oh shit! A crane fell on me and I need emergency care! (here's your check)
>Oh shit! I'm dead! (here's the check for the fam)
>
>This odd practice of using insurance to pay for the routine and expected
>expenses of maintaining one's health such as routine checkups, prescription
>medication, etc. is simply mind-boggling.
Obviously you don't understand the concept of insurance.
John W.
>
> What is this persisting pain or inability to eat that people are mentioning
> after tooth extraction?
Mostly the result of the anesthetic (sp) I'd wager.
John W.
Kevin Wayne Williams
> On Wed, 2 Jul 2003 09:55:25 -0400, "KGII" wrote.
>>
>>This odd practice of using insurance to pay for the routine and expected
>>expenses of maintaining one's health such as routine checkups, prescription
>>medication, etc. is simply mind-boggling.
>
>
>
> Obviously you don't understand the concept of insurance.
What doesn't he understand? Insurance is a fee you pay to balance risk.
Everyone contributes an amount greater than they expect to get back, and
the combined excess is used to pay off the people with extraordinarily
high expenses. If you pay for ordinary expenses with insurance, all you
have done is upped the zero level of the scheme, and added the
inefficiency of an insurance company into the mix. Prescription
medication can be quite variable, and I can see an argument for covering
unusually expensive medication, but a pretty high deductible is justified.
KWW
Kevin Gowen
> Kevin Gowen wrote:
>
>> Eric Takabayashi wrote:
>>> Kevin Gowen wrote:
>>>
>>>> I don't like any entitlement programs.
>>>
>>> Yet whites, males, and property owners benefited anyway, while women
>>> and blacks did not until more recently, resulting in some glaring
>>> inequalities. Or does that not matter because it's in the past?
>>
>> Did I ever say I liked any of those things?
>
> No, but the people benefited anyway, while women and non whites were
> denied and kept down.
Yes, that's true and it is entirely irrelevant to what I am talking about.
>>>> Of course, the commentary you
>>>> quote below is so ridiculously slanted that I cannot believe you
>>>> are wasting my time with it.
>>>
>>> "I" am not wasting "your" time at the computer.
>>
>> Sure you are.
>
> How?
You are spending my time in a way I would not elect.
>> Why the hiply ironic quotes?
>
> Because it is not me wasting your time at your computer.
Sure you are.
>>> Do people go to lawyers or file suits only if the Constitution
>>> applies?
>>
>> No, but that has nothing to do with what I said.
>
> Nor does what you said discount the fact that race of allegedly less
> qualified students is the only issue the complainants publicly took
> issue with, despite explicit reports that race was worth the same 20
> points as athletic ability toward admission, and people blame not
> getting into school on racial preferences.
You are confusing the two cases. The point-based system was for the
undergraduate college at Michigan, and it was ruled unconstitutional. The
law school affirmative action policy was upheld. Which one to you want to
discuss?
>> so I cannot respond to straw man arguments involving them.
>
> You already did.
When?
>> I'm sorry that you had to deal with that whiner.
>
> She just went home. I guess she didn't like being a white woman in
> Japan, either.
Was she frumpy? The white women I met in Japan tended to be mighty
frumpy.
>>> Racial quotas to help other minorities would actually hurt
>>> Asians, as seen at UC, where the Berkeley student body used to be
>>> 27%.
>>
>> Exactly.
>
> And I'll remind you I am not in favor of affirmative action or
> quotas, BTW.
I had forgotten. Thank you for reminding me.
>>> She merely pointed out
>>> low income students who happen to be white, as one group of people
>>> not attacked for being admitted into school. Do you also believe she
>>> was whining about preferences to children of alumni?
>>
>> Yes.
>
> Why do you not believe she (as have other writers and articles) was
> simply questioning the logic of people blaming racial preferences (as
> opposed to all other accepted types), for their not being admitted
> into school?
I don't recall her making that argument. Surely there are folks of any race
who gripe about not getting accepted to a school because of affirmative
action even though they have substandard qualifications. The plaintiff in
_Grutter_, however, had a strong LSAT and a GPA well above Michigan's median
for whites. No guarantee that she would have gotten in without affirmative
action, but since she didn't get in even though she was far above the
average and students with lower qualifications did get accepted, why wasn't
she admitted?
>> A discount for state residents is not a admissions preference or an
>> entitlement.
>
> Even when the valedictorian of my high school (white male, BTW) who
> went on to be the valedictorian of my college department, born and
> raised in California, whose father owned two businesses in California
> before they moved, was explicitly denied from the UC system because
> the UC system said they already had enough qualified applicants from
> in state?
I don't understand what the question has to do with the tuition differential
between in-state and out-of-state.
>> It makes perfect sense. The state university is funded by the
>> residents' taxes.
>
> And what of residents with no children, who never attended that
> university?
What of them?
> Why do they pay?
Because they are residents. States get to tax their residents even if a
given resident doesn't take advantage of every tax-subsidized service. I pay
for Leon County government schools with my property taxes, but no child of
mine will ever see the inside of a Leon County government school.
>> Therefore, it is appropriate that those who pay the taxes
>> that support the university pay less in tuition.
>
> Even if the students or their parents are not actually paying that
> state tax (parents not residents, and students have no job in state),
> or are not actually intending to settle down as residents, but merely
> claimed residency to enjoy about a 70% discount on tuition?
I don't understand the question.
>>> alumni children, low
>>> income people of all races, or athletes?
>>
>> None of those things are entitlements.
>
> Even if they are assigned the same value as race (20 points) in
> admissions (150 points overall)?
You realize that system was ruled unconstitutional, yes?
>> I think that a college application
>> should have no name, race, or any other such information on in. A
>> student who applies to a university is issues a serial number by an
>> officer of the admissions office, and only that officer knows the
>> names and serial numbers. It would be a system very similar to the
>> blind grading at most American law schools, where we put a serial
>> number on all of our exams and assignments rather than our names.
>
> I can see that would be more fair.
Of course, when I say "should", I don't mean they should be forced by law.
> What about school name or town of residence?
This information doesn't really matter much. I think that school name is
important because different schools have different standards. A B+ at one
school can be higher or lower than a B+ at another school. I suppose schools
could use a program that would crunch numbers from various schools to put
all the applicants on the same standard, though. Town wouldn't be
particularly relevant, although state schools would want to know who the
in-state applicants were.
>>> Are you against academic
>>> scholarships?
>>
>> No. Again, a scholarship is not an entitlement.
>
> Why should someone get money even if they do not need it, just
> because they got good grades?
You'd have to ask the school in question, but I guess they would say that
they have an interest in drawing the best students possible.
> If people with money want to go to the
> school, they can pay, too.
Yes, they can. This doesn't make scholarships entitlements, though.
> I am under no illusion that my immigrant family's real estate savvy in
> purchasing cattle land 30 years before it became a suburb for
> caucasian professionals played a part in their success. They money
> they saved was work. Their property value was simple luck.
And I am at a loss for relevance of this. Your family was lucky and
therefore....?
>>>> Why is
>>>> this alleged federal pro-whites policy keeping down blacks but not
>>>> Orientals? Could it be...cultural?
>>>
>>> Yes. Though there are also different classes of Asians, including
>>> more recent immigrant or refugees in abject poverty with little
>>> English skill or formal education, they probably don't have the
>>> emotional baggage blacks do from centuries of inequality, nor suffer
>>> the same kind of discrimination.
>>
>> Really? Orientals don't have a history of centuries of inequality and
>> discrimination in this country?
>
> Not like blacks.
Of course. However, it's still there. How do Orientals do better than whites
if the federal government has a systematic way of keeping whites on top? It
must not be a very good federal program. Big surprise there!
> See the difference for yourself.
I can't. My DeLorean can only get to 82 mph.
>> You don't have a Chinaman's chance of
>> getting me to swallow that one.
>
> Japanese like my grandfather chose to go to the US to make some
> money, and he managed to make something of himself and his family.
> Not even WWII has affected the Japanese American community the way
> slavery and centuries of discrimination has affected blacks.
Whoosh.
>>> Perhaps because they don't live or think the same way. But if you
>>> look at Asians on the bottom rungs, you might realize they are quite
>>> different from the "model" Asians who attend Berkeley, own a chain
>>> of businesses, or preside over high profile trials on TV.
>>
>> I never said anything about model Orientals. I am speaking of
>> averages.
>
> Then please note successful black people are similar to other
> successful people, and poor people of all kinds also have similar
> problems.
Of course.
> It just so happens that many black people have problems,
> such as nearly half being in poverty, and up to 60% of families not
> having fathers or husbands around.
And those two factors are very much correlated. If you want to insure that
you will grow up poor, be born to a single parent of any race. My cousin was
reared by a single mother due to his mother's bad choices, but due to her
hard work they were not poor. However, this is the exception.
> That's a lot to grow up with.
It sure is. That's why my family and I have always supported the Boys and
Girls Clubs. They provide positive environments and support for such
children.
> If
> Japan were a society half made up of single mothers or those in
> poverty, they'd have more serious problems, as well.
They sure would. This is a testament to the importance of the nuclear
family.
>>> Perhaps you'd like to report such behavior that they not waste your
>>> money.
>>
>> Nothing to report. It's legal behavior.
>
> Is it also according to department regulation?
Um, what department? I presume you mean the IRS or the Internal Revenue
Code? She's not committing tax fraud or any other crime.
> I was not aware welfare payments were like cash, to be used for
> swimming pools.
I think you misunderstand me. I called the EITC "welfare". Many do not. But
yes, the EITC is a check from the Treasury Department. You can spend it on
anything you damn well please.
>> My problem with it is that it is welfare. Do you think I base my
>> opinion of policies based on who enacted them? (Ford gave us the
>> EITC, BTW) I think Clinton's welfare reform was great, and I think
>> Bush's prescription drug entitlement for Medicare sucks.
>
> Other than being expensive, why does it suck
No need for this additional expense. It brings us closer to socialized
medicine. It is an entitlement for the segment of our population that is, by
age, the wealthiest. Why is a 67 year old wealthy guy entitled to
prescription drug benefits but not a poor 57 year old guy? I should also
note that the average old person pays $650 on prescription drugs. They spend
more on entertainment every year than they do on prescription drugs. No old
person in this country is faced with the choice of eating or taking their
prescription drugs.
> and why is it
> entitlement?
It is entitlement by definition:
"a government program that guarantees and provides benefits to a particular
group"
Drew Hamilton
>But it is unreasonable to extract four wisdom teeth at once. Infection is
Common practice here in Canada is to extract all four at once,
unless there's something horribly messed-up with your teeth. I
just had mine done a few months back. Went home that day, no
hospital stays or anything. Wasn't allowed to drink through a
straw, drink anything hot, or have any caffeine or alcohol for a
few days, but that was about the only real limitations.
--
- awh
http://www.awh.org/
Drew Hamilton
>What doesn't he understand? Insurance is a fee you pay to balance risk.
Exactly. And with health-care insurance, you may be completely
healthy this year, and not receive benefits from the plan, and the
next year you might have a heart attack and need to be
hospitalized for weeks. Buying health-care insurance just means
that you're covered in case something like that happens
Kevin Gowen
Right. I purchase auto insurance, but it does not pay for my gasoline, oil,
tires, maintenance, or any other such routine expenses. Neither does my
homeowner's insurance cover the costs of routine repairs to my home.
John W.
> Eric Takabayashi wrote:
> >
> > How [am I wasting your time at your computer]?
>
> You are spending my time in a way I would not elect.
>
> >> Why the hiply ironic quotes?
> >
> > Because it is not me wasting your time at your computer.
>
> Sure you are.
>
John W.
Michael Cash
the alphabet and kept on going with:
>Rindler Sigurd <srin...@da2.so-net.ne.jp> wrote:
>>But it is unreasonable to extract four wisdom teeth at once. Infection is
>
>Common practice here in Canada is to extract all four at once,
>unless there's something horribly messed-up with your teeth.
Well, there ya go. You just answered the question of why they do it in
four visits here.
>I
>just had mine done a few months back. Went home that day, no
>hospital stays or anything. Wasn't allowed to drink through a
>straw, drink anything hot, or have any caffeine or alcohol for a
>few days, but that was about the only real limitations.
I can't believe the offhanded way you dismiss the limitations. I can
think of at least three people on this group who would have severe
difficulties going a "few days" without caffeine or alcohol.
--
Michael Cash
"There was a time, Mr. Cash, when I believed you must be the most useless
thing in the world. But that was before I read a Microsoft help file."
Prof. Ernest T. Bass
Mount Pilot College
Kevin Gowen
You think it's cool? I think it's hot.
Sum1
"Rindler Sigurd" <srin...@da2.so-net.ne.jp> wrote in message
news:3f029b44$1...@news.uncensored-news.com...
> > Not sure if it was unreasonable, but I had all four wisdom teeth removed
> > at once. An overnight stay in a hospital with the four removed under a
> > general anaesthetic. The stitches came out about 10 days or so later.
> > Due to pain I couldn't eat many different foods, so for about a
> > fortnight friends and family preferred to stay "up wind".
> >
> >
>
>
couple
> of pounds. Still, these cases are rare I believe.
>
I had all four of mine removed in the same manner, but without the hospital
stay. This was back in the USA about 8 years ago.
Drew Hamilton
>I can't believe the offhanded way you dismiss the limitations. I can
>think of at least three people on this group who would have severe
>difficulties going a "few days" without caffeine or alcohol.
For me caffeine was the bigger problem, but there actually was
caffeine in the pain pills that my dentist gave me (I wonder why
on earth I was allowed to have caffeine in pill form but not in
drink form).
As for alcohol, I just made sure not to go to work for the next
few days, which meant that I didn't need the alcohol at all.
Declan Murphy
> On Thu, 3 Jul 2003 12:20:41 -0400, Drew Hamilton <a...@awh.org> belched
> the alphabet and kept on going with:
>>I
>>just had mine done a few months back. Went home that day, no
>>hospital stays or anything. Wasn't allowed to drink through a
>>straw, drink anything hot, or have any caffeine or alcohol for a
>>few days, but that was about the only real limitations.
>
> I can't believe the offhanded way you dismiss the limitations. I can
> think of at least three people on this group who would have severe
> difficulties going a "few days" without caffeine or alcohol.
Who are the other two? In the 10 days or so before the all my stitches
were removed (the period when friends and relatives kept upwind), I
can't recall any such limitations regarding caffeine or god forbid, the
water of life.
--
"Forget Spanish. There's nothing in that language worth reading except
Don Quixote, and a quick listen to the CD of Man of La Mancha will take
care of that. Who speaks it that you are really desperate to talk to?
The help? Your leaf blower? Study French or German, where there are at
least a few books worth reading, or if you're American, try English."
Dame Edna Everage
"If you have to explain satire to someone, you might as well give up,"
Barry Humphries
Brett Robson
>
>
>Right. I purchase auto insurance, but it does not pay for my gasoline, oil,
>tires, maintenance, or any other such routine expenses. Neither does my
>homeowner's insurance cover the costs of routine repairs to my home.
>
>
The comparison is to a car is completely bogus, a regular visit to the doctor is
nothing like a car service or house painting. As mentioned above insurance
spreads the cost over a population (Kevin) and to yourself over time (Drew); but
also it removes health costs from discretionary spending, something you would
have no comprehension of.
To many people the cost of a single visit to a doctor (or "primary health care
giver" as you would say) is a significant cost and likely to be delayed or
avoided because of more immediate costs.
Of course the loony republican line you ascribe to is that this is a good thing,
it stops poor people clogging up health system.
It is interesting that you proscribe behaviour to general population that you
hold in contempt but you have absolutely no idea what it's like. No wonder you
like to read Ben Sharpio, it's very easy to proscribe behaviour when you don't
have to follow it yourself.
John W.
> John W. wrote:
> > "Kevin Gowen" <kgowen...@myfastmail.com> wrote in message
> > news:<be1f6o$74d5$1...@ID-105084.news.dfncis.de>...
> >> Eric Takabayashi wrote:
> >>>
> >>> How [am I wasting your time at your computer]?
> >>
> >> You are spending my time in a way I would not elect.
> >>
> >>>> Why the hiply ironic quotes?
> >>>
> >>> Because it is not me wasting your time at your computer.
> >>
> >> Sure you are.
> >>
> > It's sort of cool that Eric has this amount of control over you.
>
> You think it's cool? I think it's hot.
Like virtual S&M? That is soooo cool. In a hot sort of way.
John W.
Michael Cash
<declan...@hotmail.com> belched the alphabet and kept on going
with:
>Michael Cash wrote:
>> On Thu, 3 Jul 2003 12:20:41 -0400, Drew Hamilton <a...@awh.org> belched
>> the alphabet and kept on going with:
>
>>>I
>>>just had mine done a few months back. Went home that day, no
>>>hospital stays or anything. Wasn't allowed to drink through a
>>>straw, drink anything hot, or have any caffeine or alcohol for a
>>>few days, but that was about the only real limitations.
>>
>> I can't believe the offhanded way you dismiss the limitations. I can
>> think of at least three people on this group who would have severe
>> difficulties going a "few days" without caffeine or alcohol.
>
>Who are the other two?
The Kawasaki Rump Rangers.
Hibijibi
> "Kevin Gowen wrote ...
> >Right. I purchase auto insurance, but it does not pay for my gasoline,
oil,
> >tires, maintenance, or any other such routine expenses. Neither does my
> >homeowner's insurance cover the costs of routine repairs to my home.
>
care
> giver" as you would say) is a significant cost and likely to be delayed or
> avoided because of more immediate costs.
Sorry, but this time I have to support Kevin's view, sort of. When I went
freelance a couple years ago in NY, I spent months looking at health
insurance options. It didn't help I couldn't find one friggin' insurance
agent on the whole friggin' island dealing in individual health insurance
coverage. It turns out in NY you *can't get* health insurance with a
deductible. I would _be happy_ to pay a deductible of a couple grand in
return for an affordable premium! Anyway, it's the big health expenses I'm
worried about -- major surgery, cancer, etc. -- and that wipe people's
families out.
Manhattan has the highest health insurance rates in the country, and not
surprisingly, the highest rate of uninsured. We're talking about the
cheapest HMO premiums starting at nearly $300 per month and quickly rising
to $400-$500 for something reputable. Add in a spouse or child, and you're
talking over a thousand per month. Go to Connecticut: there you can get a
policy with a $5,000 deductible for $50 per month.
Zero deductible is fine for some people. But there should always be a
choice, just as there is for any other kind of insurance.
best
hibijibi
Kevin Gowen
> "Kevin Gowen" <kgowen...@myfastmail.com> wrote in message
> news:<be245s$gnkq$1...@ID-105084.news.dfncis.de>...
>> John W. wrote:
>>> "Kevin Gowen" <kgowen...@myfastmail.com> wrote in message
>>> news:<be1f6o$74d5$1...@ID-105084.news.dfncis.de>...
>>>> Eric Takabayashi wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> How [am I wasting your time at your computer]?
>>>>
>>>> You are spending my time in a way I would not elect.
>>>>
>>>>>> Why the hiply ironic quotes?
>>>>>
>>>>> Because it is not me wasting your time at your computer.
>>>>
>>>> Sure you are.
>>>>
>>> It's sort of cool that Eric has this amount of control over you.
>>
>> You think it's cool? I think it's hot.
>
> Like virtual S&M? That is soooo cool. In a hot sort of way.
Gives a new meaning to "ass baton".
--
Kevin Gowen
"The US economy accounts for about one-third of global GDP-greater than
the next four countries combined (Japan, Germany, the United Kingdom
and France)."
- "Advancing the National Interest: Australia's Foreign and Trade
Policy White Paper", Australian Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade
Bryan Parker
>On Fri, 04 Jul 2003 10:33:41 +0900, Declan Murphy
><declan...@hotmail.com> belched the alphabet and kept on going
>with:
>
>>Michael Cash wrote:
>>> On Thu, 3 Jul 2003 12:20:41 -0400, Drew Hamilton <a...@awh.org> belched
>>> the alphabet and kept on going with:
>>
>>>>I
>>>>just had mine done a few months back. Went home that day, no
>>>>hospital stays or anything. Wasn't allowed to drink through a
>>>>straw, drink anything hot, or have any caffeine or alcohol for a
>>>>few days, but that was about the only real limitations.
>>>
>>> I can't believe the offhanded way you dismiss the limitations. I can
>>> think of at least three people on this group who would have severe
>>> difficulties going a "few days" without caffeine or alcohol.
>>
>>Who are the other two?
>
>The Kawasaki Rump Rangers.
KEEP OUT OF MY DESK, BEYOTCH!
http://tinyurl.com/g357
--
Bryan
gaijenerous -
adjective: more than adequate (Example: "A slab of
gaijenerous proportion")
adjective: willing to give and share unstintingly
(Example: "A gaijenerous ejaculation")
adjective: not petty in character and mind (Example:
"Unusually gaijenerous in his judgment of people")
Michael Cash
<puntspe...@yahoo.com> belched the alphabet and kept on going
with:
>Michael Cash <mike...@sunfield.ne.jp> said:
>
>>On Fri, 04 Jul 2003 10:33:41 +0900, Declan Murphy
>><declan...@hotmail.com> belched the alphabet and kept on going
>>with:
>>
>>>Michael Cash wrote:
>>>> On Thu, 3 Jul 2003 12:20:41 -0400, Drew Hamilton <a...@awh.org> belched
>>>> the alphabet and kept on going with:
>>>
>>>>>I
>>>>>just had mine done a few months back. Went home that day, no
>>>>>hospital stays or anything. Wasn't allowed to drink through a
>>>>>straw, drink anything hot, or have any caffeine or alcohol for a
>>>>>few days, but that was about the only real limitations.
>>>>
>>>> I can't believe the offhanded way you dismiss the limitations. I can
>>>> think of at least three people on this group who would have severe
>>>> difficulties going a "few days" without caffeine or alcohol.
>>>
>>>Who are the other two?
>>
>>The Kawasaki Rump Rangers.
>
>KEEP OUT OF MY DESK, BEYOTCH!
>http://tinyurl.com/g357
I recognize that little white bottle in the middle quite well. That's
the little 60ct ephedra bottle. I got one from you. I have been
reloading it from my 500ct ephedra bottles ever since.
stefan wrabetz
having
> a couple teeth pulled before I got braces, and those didn't hurt too much
> all. (And I agree, getting braces tightened hurts like CRAZY.) But my
wisdom
> teeth were impacted -- they were coming in sideways, and hadn't broken
> through the gums. So the oral surgeon had to cut into my jaw to remove
them.
> So it wasn't just like plucking them out.
I'm supposed to have my 4 wisdom teeth removed within about a month from now
(maybe I'll tell y'all about it when/if it happens). All 4 are showing up
nicely on the X-ray, and the top 2 have broken through. Is it easier for the
oral surgeion to remove them AFTER they're come out?
- Stefan
Eric Takabayashi
Yes, because then he can simply use pliers. Those were easy. For the teeth
which had not erupted, however, he had to cut open my gum, and go in with a
mallet and chisel to split the tooth to remove the little bits. I saw him
hitting me.
Don't worry. It shouldn't hurt. It was cool. Ask about diet or pain killer for
later if you are concerned. Be prepared for it to bleed for a few days.
stefan wrabetz
> Yes, because then he can simply use pliers. Those were easy. For the teeth
> which had not erupted, however, he had to cut open my gum, and go in with
a
> mallet and chisel to split the tooth to remove the little bits. I saw him
> hitting me.
>
> Don't worry. It shouldn't hurt. It was cool. Ask about diet or pain killer
for
> later if you are concerned. Be prepared for it to bleed for a few days.
Alright, thanks. What about novocain? Embarassing to admit but I have a
certain fear of needles...where do they inject it? In the gums surrounding
the to-be-taken-out-wisdom teeth? And about how many times would he do it?
Also, how can he reach all the way back there? I mean, it's right in the
back pocket, I can barely reach it with my index finger, how's he going to
be able to fidget around back there with his tools (pliers)?
Drew Hamilton
>Alright, thanks. What about novocain? Embarassing to admit but I have a
>certain fear of needles...where do they inject it? In the gums surrounding
>the to-be-taken-out-wisdom teeth? And about how many times would he do it?
>Also, how can he reach all the way back there? I mean, it's right in the
>back pocket, I can barely reach it with my index finger, how's he going to
>be able to fidget around back there with his tools (pliers)?
Most dentists these days swab you with some sort of topical
anaesthetic before injecting the lidocaine, so you won't even
really feel that at all. In my case there were about 3-4 needles
per tooth, in random locations in the gums surrounding the tooth.
As for how he reaches back there, he just dopes you up with some
laughing gas so you don't care what he's doing, and then has
his nurse hold open your jaw and move it around into strange
positions until it's easy for him to get at the tooth.
Michael Cash
the alphabet and kept on going with:
>As for how he reaches back there, he just dopes you up with some
>laughing gas so you don't care what he's doing, and then has
>his nurse hold open your jaw and move it around into strange
>positions until it's easy for him to get at the tooth.
Please don't make references to:
1. drugs
2. nurses
3. jaws
4. strange positions
in the same post. It gets Bryan all worked up.
Bryan Parker
>Please don't make references to:
>
>1. drugs
>2. nurses
>3. jaws
>4. strange positions
>
>in the same post. It gets Bryan all worked up.
This should be added to the FAQ.
Silvio Franke
stefan wrabetz schrieb:
Hey Stefan, you're going to a dentist in Germany? If the German
dentist expects no complications, he/she does inject it with the
needles 2-4 for times per tooth, depending on the situation,
and it's no problem to reach the teeth with the tools.
A few month ago I had my two left wisdow teeth removed. It took
2 or three injections and 2 minutes of handwork and they were out.
It bleeded one day and that was it. My teeth were allready breaking
through and I had no problems.
My military doctor decided that I am fully recovered after 5 days.
Silvio
-------------------------------------------------
Sometimes I feel the strong urge to march east...
Michael Cash
<silvio...@unibw-muenchen.de> belched the alphabet and kept on
going with:
>A few month ago I had my two left wisdow teeth removed. It took
>2 or three injections and 2 minutes of handwork and they were out.
>It bleeded one day and that was it. My teeth were allready breaking
>through and I had no problems.
>My military doctor decided that I am fully recovered after 5 days.
When I was in basic training in the USN, we had a fellow who had to
have a wisdom tooth extracted. He received the rest of the day off and
permission for bed rest the next day.
We had another fellow who had a heart attack one evening. The next day
he was on full duty.
Silvio Franke
Michael Cash schrieb in Nachricht ...
>On Thu, 10 Jul 2003 07:22:18 +0200, Silvio Franke
><silvio...@unibw-muenchen.de> belched the alphabet and kept on
>going with:
>
>
>>A few month ago I had my two left wisdow teeth removed. It took
>>2 or three injections and 2 minutes of handwork and they were out.
>>It bleeded one day and that was it. My teeth were allready breaking
>>through and I had no problems.
>>My military doctor decided that I am fully recovered after 5 days.
>
>When I was in basic training in the USN, we had a fellow who had to
>have a wisdom tooth extracted. He received the rest of the day off and
>permission for bed rest the next day.
>
>We had another fellow who had a heart attack one evening. The next day
>he was on full duty.
You have to understand, that I'm at the Federal Armed Forces University.
We have a lot of heavy books, no heavy weapons, a lot of civilian staff,
civilian academic staff and a civilian university-president here. This is
not a "normal" army-facility....
So the doctors tend to show a little civilized behaviour. I guess deep
in his heart the doc called me a candy-ass and wished, that he could
give me one or two Aspirin and send me back to the front...
Michael Cash
>
>Michael Cash schrieb in Nachricht ...
>>On Thu, 10 Jul 2003 07:22:18 +0200, Silvio Franke
>><silvio...@unibw-muenchen.de> belched the alphabet and kept on
>>going with:
>>
>>
>>>A few month ago I had my two left wisdow teeth removed. It took
>>>2 or three injections and 2 minutes of handwork and they were out.
>>>It bleeded one day and that was it. My teeth were allready breaking
>>>through and I had no problems.
>>>My military doctor decided that I am fully recovered after 5 days.
>>
>>When I was in basic training in the USN, we had a fellow who had to
>>have a wisdom tooth extracted. He received the rest of the day off and
>>permission for bed rest the next day.
>>
>>We had another fellow who had a heart attack one evening. The next day
>>he was on full duty.
>
>
>You have to understand, that I'm at the Federal Armed Forces University.
>We have a lot of heavy books, no heavy weapons, a lot of civilian staff,
>civilian academic staff and a civilian university-president here. This is
>not a "normal" army-facility....
>So the doctors tend to show a little civilized behaviour. I guess deep
>in his heart the doc called me a candy-ass and wished, that he could
>give me one or two Aspirin and send me back to the eastern front...
You left a word out. Don't worrry, I fixed it for you.
Silvio Franke
Michael Cash schrieb:
Thank you! Sometimes it's good to have somebody to rely on.
stefan wrabetz
> Hey Stefan, you're going to a dentist in Germany?
No, Silvio ,I'm gonna go overseas to get it done. Of course here. Or, I
could do it in Bayern (since everyone knows Bayern - Bavaria - isn't part of
Germany, rather the other way around).
> If the German
> dentist expects no complications, he/she does inject it with the
> needles 2-4 for times per tooth, depending on the situation,
> and it's no problem to reach the teeth with the tools.
> A few month ago I had my two left wisdow teeth removed. It took
> 2 or three injections and 2 minutes of handwork and they were out.
> It bleeded one day and that was it. My teeth were allready breaking
> through and I had no problems.
> My military doctor decided that I am fully recovered after 5 days.
Thanks for the reassuring news. Maybe I can face this more calmly now. Was
the bleeding heavy?
Michael Cash
No problem. Just don't look for me when the shooting starts. (I'll be
back at HQ, under a desk).
Silvio Franke
Michael Cash schrieb:
Oh Mike... What do you think is more interesting for the enemy? The
poor little OLt Franke with his lousy 4 tanks or the HQ?
Something tells me, that it can be far more dangerous in a HQ, than in
a tank...
Silvio Franke
stefan wrabetz schrieb:
>
> > Hey Stefan, you're going to a dentist in Germany?
>
> No, Silvio ,I'm gonna go overseas to get it done. Of course here. Or, I
> could do it in Bayern (since everyone knows Bayern - Bavaria - isn't part of
> Germany, rather the other way around).
Bavaria tries to get rid of the rest of Germany for years now...and the
Franconians try to get rid of Bavaria for 200 years now.
My religion teacher was member of the Franconinan Separation Party...
> > If the German
> > dentist expects no complications, he/she does inject it with the
> > needles 2-4 for times per tooth, depending on the situation,
> > and it's no problem to reach the teeth with the tools.
> > A few month ago I had my two left wisdow teeth removed. It took
> > 2 or three injections and 2 minutes of handwork and they were out.
> > It bleeded one day and that was it. My teeth were allready breaking
> > through and I had no problems.
> > My military doctor decided that I am fully recovered after 5 days.
>
> Thanks for the reassuring news. Maybe I can face this more calmly now. Was
> the bleeding heavy?
It was quite strong during the first two or three hours and stopped
after 5 or 6 hours. So I guess it all in all was not very heavy. No
stitches and the next day was quite relaxing again.
Michael Cash
>
>
>Michael Cash schrieb:
>>
>> On Fri, 11 Jul 2003 07:18:01 +0200, Silvio Franke
>> <silvio...@unibw-muenchen.de> belched the alphabet and kept on
>> going with:
>>
>> >
>> >
>> >Michael Cash schrieb:
>> No problem. Just don't look for me when the shooting starts. (I'll be
>> back at HQ, under a desk).
>
>Oh Mike... What do you think is more interesting for the enemy? The
>poor little OLt Franke with his lousy 4 tanks or the HQ?
Poor little OLt Franke and his 4 lousy tanks will draw more fire.
>
>Something tells me, that it can be far more dangerous in a HQ, than in
>a tank...
Nobody in their right mind would fire on HQ. HQ is a place you want to
capture undamaged. Know why? That's where the coffee and donuts are.
Safer than in your mother's arms, Silvio.
guy-jin
> Michael Cash <mike...@sunfield.ne.jp> wrote:
> >I can't believe the offhanded way you dismiss the limitations. I can
> >think of at least three people on this group who would have severe
> >difficulties going a "few days" without caffeine or alcohol.
>
> For me caffeine was the bigger problem, but there actually was
> caffeine in the pain pills that my dentist gave me (I wonder why
> on earth I was allowed to have caffeine in pill form but not in
> drink form).
How much caffeine? maybe he was worried about overdosing.
Silvio Franke
Michael Cash schrieb:
>
> On Mon, 14 Jul 2003 15:22:43 +0200, Silvio Franke
> <silvio...@unibw-muenchen.de> belched the alphabet and kept on
> going with:
>
> >
> >
> >Michael Cash schrieb:
> >>
> >> On Fri, 11 Jul 2003 07:18:01 +0200, Silvio Franke
> >> <silvio...@unibw-muenchen.de> belched the alphabet and kept on
> >> going with:
> >>
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >Michael Cash schrieb:
>
> >> No problem. Just don't look for me when the shooting starts. (I'll be
> >> back at HQ, under a desk).
> >
> >Oh Mike... What do you think is more interesting for the enemy? The
> >poor little OLt Franke with his lousy 4 tanks or the HQ?
>
> Poor little OLt Franke and his 4 lousy tanks will draw more fire.
..and is able to fire back, while driving 50mph and sitting behind
70-100cm Chobham and composite armour. Never seen a HQ doing this.
> >Something tells me, that it can be far more dangerous in a HQ, than in
> >a tank...
>
> Nobody in their right mind would fire on HQ. HQ is a place you want to
> capture undamaged. Know why? That's where the coffee and donuts are.
> Safer than in your mother's arms, Silvio.
No, the donuts are directly in my NBC-protection device in the tank.
There is allways enough place there for some beers, extra food...and the
coffee is at the loaders side, besides the rounds for the machine guns.
I heard some weird Generals allways try to eliminate the enemy's
control and command structures first, by using big bombs and
missiles and some other dirty things.
Brett Robson
>
>
>
>Michael Cash schrieb:
>>
>> Poor little OLt Franke and his 4 lousy tanks will draw more fire.
>
>..and is able to fire back, while driving 50mph and sitting behind
>70-100cm Chobham and composite armour. Never seen a HQ doing this.
>
Surely both your company and regimental HQs have some nice panzers?
>
>No, the donuts are directly in my NBC-protection device in the tank.
>There is allways enough place there for some beers, extra food...and the
>coffee is at the loaders side, besides the rounds for the machine guns.
>
Careful! It would be embarrassing if the engineers had to enlarge the cupola to
get you out :)
Michael Cash
alphabet and kept on going with:
>Drew Hamilton <a...@awh.org> wrote in message news:<56j2eb.hrl.ln@urd>...
I take 1000mg or so every day. Never caused me any problems.
Silvio Franke
Brett Robson schrieb:
>
> On Tue, 15 Jul 2003 07:31:43 +0200, Silvio ...
> >
> >
> >
> >Michael Cash schrieb:
> >>
> >> Poor little OLt Franke and his 4 lousy tanks will draw more fire.
> >
> >..and is able to fire back, while driving 50mph and sitting behind
> >70-100cm Chobham and composite armour. Never seen a HQ doing this.
> >
>
> Surely both your company and regimental HQs have some nice panzers?
I don't dare to call this "tanks", or Panzer. The company leader has a
MBT, the Batallion commander, too, but beginning from Brigade upwards,
the have "armoured" command and contol vehicels without a 120mm gun.
I guess these vehicels are not much more more than lightly armoured
combat telephone boxes. Good enough for their purpose but not a
Panzer.
> >No, the donuts are directly in my NBC-protection device in the tank.
> >There is allways enough place there for some beers, extra food...and the
> >coffee is at the loaders side, besides the rounds for the machine guns.
> >
>
> Careful! It would be embarrassing if the engineers had to enlarge the cupola to
> get you out :)
I'm trying to get a perfectly round body, so that I can fit perfectly
into the hatch and as long they can get food and coffee into the tank
through the loaders hatch, I'll be happy.
Brett Robson
>
>I don't dare to call this "tanks", or Panzer. The company leader has a
>MBT, the Batallion commander, too, but beginning from Brigade upwards,
>the have "armoured" command and contol vehicels without a 120mm gun.
>I guess these vehicels are not much more more than lightly armoured
>combat telephone boxes. Good enough for their purpose but not a
>Panzer.
I got to borrow those M113 command vehicles (M577?) a couple of times. Tanks are
hot, smelly, cramped and make you vomit. I don't understand why anyone would
want to get inside one. I'd rather walk into battle, even with a radio on my
back. I take my beret/peak cap/slouch hat off to you.
Ever been in a diesel submarine? They are truely the worst things ever designed.
>
>I'm trying to get a perfectly round body, so that I can fit perfectly
>into the hatch and as long they can get food and coffee into the tank
>through the loaders hatch, I'll be happy.
Have you had the suspension upgrade?
>
>Silvio
>-------------------------------------------------
>Sometimes I feel the strong urge to march east...
while sitting down.
Michael Cash
>
>
>Michael Cash schrieb:
>>
>> On Mon, 14 Jul 2003 15:22:43 +0200, Silvio Franke
>> <silvio...@unibw-muenchen.de> belched the alphabet and kept on
>> going with:
>>
>> >
>> >
>> >Michael Cash schrieb:
>> >>
>> >> On Fri, 11 Jul 2003 07:18:01 +0200, Silvio Franke
>> >> <silvio...@unibw-muenchen.de> belched the alphabet and kept on
>> >> going with:
>> >>
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >Michael Cash schrieb:
>>
>> >> No problem. Just don't look for me when the shooting starts. (I'll be
>> >> back at HQ, under a desk).
>> >
>> >Oh Mike... What do you think is more interesting for the enemy? The
>> >poor little OLt Franke with his lousy 4 tanks or the HQ?
>>
>> Poor little OLt Franke and his 4 lousy tanks will draw more fire.
>
>..and is able to fire back, while driving 50mph and sitting behind
>70-100cm Chobham and composite armour. Never seen a HQ doing this.
This is easily explained by the fact that we in HQ are lovers, not
fighters.
>
>> >Something tells me, that it can be far more dangerous in a HQ, than in
>> >a tank...
>>
>> Nobody in their right mind would fire on HQ. HQ is a place you want to
>> capture undamaged. Know why? That's where the coffee and donuts are.
>> Safer than in your mother's arms, Silvio.
>
>No, the donuts are directly in my NBC-protection device in the tank.
>There is allways enough place there for some beers, extra food...and the
>coffee is at the loaders side, besides the rounds for the machine guns.
But we have all the cute buxom sexcretaries in HQ. You have a love
doll and a bicycle pump.
>
>I heard some weird Generals allways try to eliminate the enemy's
>control and command structures first, by using big bombs and
>missiles and some other dirty things.
But that can't happen in my HQ. Long before any potential attack I
will start speaking with a French accent and surrender the entire
country.
Silvio Franke
Michael Cash schrieb:
>
> On Tue, 15 Jul 2003 07:31:43 +0200, Silvio Franke
> <silvio...@unibw-muenchen.de> belched the alphabet and kept on
> going with:
>
> >> On Mon, 14 Jul 2003 15:22:43 +0200, Silvio Franke
> >> <silvio...@unibw-muenchen.de> belched the alphabet and kept on
> >> going with:
>
> >> >> >Michael Cash schrieb:
> >>
> >> >> No problem. Just don't look for me when the shooting starts. (I'll be
> >> >> back at HQ, under a desk).
> >> >
> >> >Oh Mike... What do you think is more interesting for the enemy? The
> >> >poor little OLt Franke with his lousy 4 tanks or the HQ?
> >>
> >> Poor little OLt Franke and his 4 lousy tanks will draw more fire.
> >
> >..and is able to fire back, while driving 50mph and sitting behind
> >70-100cm Chobham and composite armour. Never seen a HQ doing this.
>
> This is easily explained by the fact that we in HQ are lovers, not
> fighters.
> >
> >> >Something tells me, that it can be far more dangerous in a HQ, than in
> >> >a tank...
> >>
> >> Nobody in their right mind would fire on HQ. HQ is a place you want to
> >> capture undamaged. Know why? That's where the coffee and donuts are.
> >> Safer than in your mother's arms, Silvio.
> >
> >No, the donuts are directly in my NBC-protection device in the tank.
> >There is allways enough place there for some beers, extra food...and the
> >coffee is at the loaders side, besides the rounds for the machine guns.
>
> But we have all the cute buxom sexcretaries in HQ. You have a love
> doll and a bicycle pump.
Wrong. Don't forget, that the German Armed Forces allow women to serve
in nearly all branches of arms, this includes tanks. So some lucky
platoons have mixed crews...
> >I heard some weird Generals allways try to eliminate the enemy's
> >control and command structures first, by using big bombs and
> >missiles and some other dirty things.
>
> But that can't happen in my HQ. Long before any potential attack I
> will start speaking with a French accent and surrender the entire
> country.
Ok, I have no argument against that. In this point you won.