Drop-knee Seionage
MatMite
tournaments drop knee is not allowed in the children's matches. The reason is
that the younger children never twist during the throw, (even though they are
taught to in the Dojo) they just make their entry, drop and pull their opponent
straight into the mat face first. There is a very big risk factor with this
throw until they get to the age where they understand the mechanics of the
throw. Have any of you had any experience with this problem?
J.Dijksman
The same rule is in Judo tournamants for youth in the Netherlands too. The
age at which they are permitted to do this technic is from the year they
become 12.
So we do not allow theis throw if they are under 12 in any competiotion, but
in rendori and training most schools start with this throw at about 10. some
times you see the technic used in tournement by someone between 10 and 12.
In most cases when they succeed in using it, there is no problem, other than
that it is not allowed.
I never jet experienced a situation that children were thrown with their
faces down in to the tatami.
Best regards
Julius
"MatMite" <mat...@cs.com> schreef in bericht
news:20021212185423...@mb-cv.news.cs.com...
Jigotai
them in that kind of variant. Only then, they are prepared to make that kind
of variants.
In Spain, it is not allowed to do any technic from mat. Both knees on mat at
the first time, it is called matte and referee gives a verbal warning to
infractor. Next time, it is shido.
As referee, a bad made drop knee seoi nage for me is a shido (false attack).
Best regards
Angel
Hitoshi T, JAPAN
I tell about knee-drop Seoi-nage in Japanese.
We have a rule for children (under 15 years old) in Kodokan rule.
Of course, knee-drop Seoinage is not allowed.
If one player does the seoin-age , referee gives "Chuui" to the player .
When the player do it , there are some serious injuries on his neck and back
bone.
So in Kodokan Junior rule, it is not allowed , and given "Chuui " ,not "Shido".
And sudden "Morote-gari " and " Kani-basami" and " Neck-drop Uchimata " too.
We must notice to health and safty of children .
Regards
Hitoshi (JAPAN)
MatMite wrote in message <20021212185423...@mb-cv.news.cs.com>...
Jigotai
> So in Kodokan Junior rule, it is not allowed , and given "Chuui " ,not
"Shido".
Dear Shinyu:
The only sanction actually in Spain are "shido" or "hansokumake". So, first
shido = koka. Second shido = yuko. Third shido = waza ari. Fourth shido =
hansokumake = ippon.
Have you found out about those changes?
Best regards
Angel
R Hunziker
in zempo kaiten ukemi.
What is the difference between "drop-knee seoi nage" and "seoi otoshi"?
Robin, Ameri-Kan Judo, Findlay, Ohio
http://www2.wcoil.com/~markjudo/
"MatMite" <mat...@cs.com> wrote in message
news:20021212185423...@mb-cv.news.cs.com...
Jigotai
"R Hunziker" <rmhun...@hotmail.com> escribió en el mensaje
news:fxednb8JlYO...@reliant.com...
> I would think part of the problem is whether uke has been properly trained
> in zempo kaiten ukemi.
>
> What is the difference between "drop-knee seoi nage" and "seoi otoshi"?
Diferences between seoi-nage y seoi-otoshi are only kuzushi. In Seoi-otoshi,
we suddenly change the movement of kuzushi as if we cut the air with our
hands. Please, visit kodokan web site. I think you think that seoi otoshi is
seoi nage with knees on mat, don't you?
R Hunziker
whether it was one of timing (e.g., when the knees hit the mat) or of
kazushi.
I should have looked at http://www.kodokan.org/e_waza/seoiotoshi.html before
I asked the question. It contains the answer:
"These two techniques are alike, especially in the lifting position.
However, the difference is in the throwing concept.
"Seoi-nage : lift up the opponent and throw
"Seoi-otoshi : pull down and throw (at this time, one knee or both knees
must touch on the mat)
"Although the knee or knees touch the mat at one time during the process of
the throw, if at the actual execution of the throw, the knee or knees are
not touching, the throw is considered to be Seoi-nage.
"It is very difficult to define these techniques in the split second of
execution. It is necessary to segregate these techniques."
Onegai Shimasu, when you say "suddenly change the movement of kuzushi as if
we cut the air with our hands" are you referring to the change in uke's
direction from forward (and perhaps upward) to suddenly downard?
"Jigotai" <ji...@ono.com> wrote in message
news:b05q1n$lsnm3$1...@ID-113466.news.dfncis.de...
Jigotai
">
> Onegai Shimasu, when you say "suddenly change the movement of kuzushi as
if
> we cut the air with our hands" are you referring to the change in uke's
> direction from forward (and perhaps upward) to suddenly downard?
Yes, correct. Smart guy. :-P
My mind wasn't too much clear when I wrote that post. And I didn't know how
to explain the movement of tori's arms. Sorry for my english.
Best regards
Angel
Jigotai
"Jigotai" <ji...@ono.es> escribió en el mensaje
news:b07ao0$mivo2$1...@ID-113466.news.dfncis.de...
>
> ">
> > Onegai Shimasu, when you say "suddenly change the movement of kuzushi as
> if
> > we cut the air with our hands" are you referring to the change in uke's
> > direction from forward (and perhaps upward) to suddenly downard?
>
> Yes, correct. Smart guy. :-P
I meant "clever guy". Sorry again. I think I go to bed right now. :-)
Ray
or not you lift or pull down your opponent. The hand, foot or knee positions
are irrelevant. It is still an Otoshi if you come in for a normal Seoi-Nage,
meet resistance and drop onto your knees, squat or whatever, providing that
at no time of actual Kake do you lift.The opposite is also true your
original Tsukuri can be created by dropping down but if at any stage you
lift your opponent to make the throw, it reverts back to Seoi-Nage.
Kuzushi is the initial breaking of the balance or posture in order to make
him susceptible to an attack. Both Seoi- Nage and Seoi-Otoshi require the
same Kuzushi, I.E. Mamae-no-Kuzushi ( front breaking of posture).
I think perhaps you may be confusing Kuzushi (breaking of the posture) this
is fundamentally concerned with direction I.E where you are taking your
opponent, with Tsukuri (creating the technique), this is how you break the
balance, what your hands, feet & body are doing to break the balance in that
direction.
I hope you consider my answer and look forward to possible discussion,
Ray.
"Jigotai" <ji...@ono.com> wrote in message
news:b05q1n$lsnm3$1...@ID-113466.news.dfncis.de...
>
Jigotai
"Ray" <r.b...@onetel.net> escribió en el mensaje
news:3e27...@212.67.96.135...
> The difference between drop Seoi-Nage & Seoi-Otoshi is fundamentally
whether
> or not you lift or pull down your opponent. The hand, foot or knee
positions
> are irrelevant. It is still an Otoshi if you come in for a normal
Seoi-Nage,
> meet resistance and drop onto your knees, squat or whatever, providing
that
> at no time of actual Kake do you lift.The opposite is also true your
> original Tsukuri can be created by dropping down but if at any stage you
> lift your opponent to make the throw, it reverts back to Seoi-Nage.
> Kuzushi is the initial breaking of the balance or posture in order to make
> him susceptible to an attack. Both Seoi- Nage and Seoi-Otoshi require the
> same Kuzushi, I.E. Mamae-no-Kuzushi ( front breaking of posture).
> I think perhaps you may be confusing Kuzushi (breaking of the posture)
this
> is fundamentally concerned with direction I.E where you are taking your
> opponent, with Tsukuri (creating the technique), this is how you break the
> balance, what your hands, feet & body are doing to break the balance in
that
> direction.
No. As far as I know, the timing of any technique is Tsukuri, Kuzushi and
Kake. Because that, in order to place the moment which seoi-otoshi is
different from seoi nage, I choose (badly) kuzushi as the difference between
both of them, because uke's falling is done by means of a sudden change of
arms movement direction (as if we cut). Maybe, the difference between both
techniques are, simply, its kake (throw).
However, in a technique, kuzushi is more than the simple light movement of
unbalancement. If we take tai-otoshi as the most pure representative
technique of unbalancement, you will see that only with a Mamae-no-kuzushi
you won't be able to make to fall uke. It is the sudden change of our arms
pulling direction (as we cut, once again) which will make uke to fall.
Maybe, it is difficult to stablish the limit between kuzushi and kake, but
for me kuzushi ends when uke's body is under our control and finish the
throw (kake)
> I hope you consider my answer and look forward to possible discussion,
Of course I do. Feel free of writing all you think necessary.
Best regards
Angel
marc
tournaments in my youth.
In every junior Judo tournaments I refereed in the sixties, Morote seoinage
and drop to the knee and makikomi, was a favorite at that time.
We used to teach it at orange belt and found it was never a problem.
Where are all those whossy rules come from anyway, from the girls
tournaments??!.
DeCutMan.
"MatMite" <mat...@cs.com> wrote in message
news:20021212185423...@mb-cv.news.cs.com...
Jigotai
> Where are all those whossy rules come from anyway, from the girls
> tournaments??!.
No comments.