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Eva-01, Rei, and instumentality

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Matt Durrant

未読、
2002/10/21 14:30:172002/10/21
To:
From what I understand, EVA-01 and Rei were necessery for 3rd Impact. EVA-01
as a stand in for Adam, and Rei to control it, to whatever end. Without them
it wouldn't be possible.
So then, why do NERV continually put them both in dangerous situations? OK,
you can (presumably) clone a brand new Unit 1 and Rei (although don't they
need Rei's body intact?) if either get destroyed by a Angel attack, but
since they can build as many Evas as they like, and they know all the
potential pilots, why not keep EVA-01 and Rei out of harms way?


vagrant

未読、
2002/10/21 16:14:312002/10/21
To:
I'm new to the series but here are some thoughts...Its true that they were
put into dangerous situations but for the most part eva01 was closely looked
after. Unit00 provided defense while Unit01 used that big cannon again
Ramiel in episode 5, Rei herself is expendable...she even said it herself "I
can be replaced." Unit01 wasnt the one to go into the lava to capture
Sandalphon in episode 10...it was Unit02, Unit01 was safely on the surface
out of potential harms way. When Unit01 was swallowed by Leliel in 16,
Unit01's return was top priority. My conjecture about the dummy plug being
activated was so that Eva Unit03 wouldnt completely destroy Unit01, a safety
measure. Also throughout other battles Unit01 was kept in cryostasis and
was then launched in emergencies. But then again I could be wrong because
I've only seen the series twice through so my brain is still quite numb.
I'm interested in learning ppl's takes on this..

[vagrant]


"Matt Durrant" <mat...@durrant33.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
news:ap1h3o$778$1...@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk...

Matt Durrant

未読、
2002/10/21 16:35:062002/10/21
To:

>When Unit01 was swallowed by Leliel in 16,
> Unit01's return was top priority.

This is what sparked this off in my head. They were prepared to go to any
lengths to get Eva-01 back, even possibly killing the pilot. If they'd used
a production Eva it wouldn't have mattered as much.

Also, Shinji is a rather dangerous pilot for Eva-01, since he tends to go
berserk and ignore orders. If they used a calmer pilot such as Rei (who,
incidentely, does go rather blood thirsty in battles IMHO, which is
uncharacteristic of her) then Eva-01 would stand a better chance of
surviving. Maybe why they tried those cross-compatibilty tests...


vagrant

未読、
2002/10/21 17:03:062002/10/21
To:

> Also, Shinji is a rather dangerous pilot for Eva-01, since he tends to go
> berserk and ignore orders. If they used a calmer pilot such as Rei (who,
> incidentely, does go rather blood thirsty in battles IMHO, which is
> uncharacteristic of her) then Eva-01 would stand a better chance of
> surviving. Maybe why they tried those cross-compatibilty tests...
>
>

thats a good way of looking at it :) but then again Rei likes to try to get
herself destroyed. Asuska's over confidence and wanting to jump into battle
seems like a better reason for not cross testing her than her not wanting to
pilot anyone else's Eva (if this theory is correct) even though she probably
wouldnt want to pilot anyone else's anyway. Which is why she was given that
reason.

[vagrant]


Michael Wignall

未読、
2002/10/21 19:42:242002/10/21
To:
"Matt Durrant" <mat...@durrant33.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
news:ap1h3o$778$1...@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk...
> From what I understand, EVA-01 and Rei were necessery
> for 3rd Impact. EVA-01 as a stand in for Adam, and Rei
> to control it, to whatever end. Without them it wouldn't be
> possible.

Eva-01 wasn't a stand in for Adam. As SEELE say in EoE:

SEELE 01 (Keel): "The promised time has come. With the Lance
of Longinus now lost, complementation using Lilith is impossible.
Our only hope is to proceed with EVA-01, Lilith's sole clone."

Eva-01 was a stand in for Lilith, as Eva-01 was the only clone
of Lilith.

For SEELE Rei wasn't necessary at all. SEELE were going to
use Eva-01 and the MP Evas.

Gendou on the other hand wasn't going to use Eva-01 at all,
his plan was to use Rei (with Lilith's soul) Adam (in his hand)
and Lilith herself down in terminal dogma.

The reason it is so confusing in EoE is that what we saw was
a mix of both what SEELE planned and what Gendou planned.

--
Michael Wignall
"Tomorrow's just an excuse away..."


Diamon

未読、
2002/10/22 5:55:152002/10/22
To:
"Michael Wignall" <use...@mdwigs.tk> wrote in message
news:Ph0t9.18171$Sr6.5...@ozemail.com.au...

> Eva-01 wasn't a stand in for Adam. As SEELE say in EoE:

Doesn't someone within NERV ( Fuyyutski I belive ) specifically state theat
SEELE is using Eva-01 in place of Adam?

> SEELE 01 (Keel): "The promised time has come. With the Lance
> of Longinus now lost, complementation using Lilith is impossible.
> Our only hope is to proceed with EVA-01, Lilith's sole clone."
>
> Eva-01 was a stand in for Lilith, as Eva-01 was the only clone
> of Lilith.

But the Lance is used to pierce the core of Eva-01, so doesn't that blow a
hole in the idea of using Eva-01 instead of Lilith because the Lance was
lost?

> For SEELE Rei wasn't necessary at all. SEELE were going to
> use Eva-01 and the MP Evas.
>
> Gendou on the other hand wasn't going to use Eva-01 at all,
> his plan was to use Rei (with Lilith's soul) Adam (in his hand)
> and Lilith herself down in terminal dogma.
>
> The reason it is so confusing in EoE is that what we saw was
> a mix of both what SEELE planned and what Gendou planned.

Interesting, but doesn't the time the Chamber of Gaf opens ( and everyone
turns into LCL ) the same time as Eva-01 enters into Lilith ( who now
contains Adam ) ?


Diamon

未読、
2002/10/22 6:17:192002/10/22
To:
One additional point...

"Michael Wignall" <use...@mdwigs.tk> wrote in message
news:Ph0t9.18171$Sr6.5...@ozemail.com.au...

> Gendou on the other hand wasn't going to use Eva-01 at all,
> his plan was to use Rei (with Lilith's soul) Adam (in his hand)
> and Lilith herself down in terminal dogma.

If all Gendou's version of complementation requires was Rei, Adam and Lilith
why did Gendou wait so long? I'd think as soon as Kaji arrived with Adam
that Gendou would start third impact. Why would he bother taking the time
of getting Adam implanted in his hand and then waiting around until SEELE
started their version of third impact and risk foiling his plans? After all
as soon as SEELE realized Gendou's plan they tried killing everyone off,
Gendou included.

Of course another question big picture is considering Gendou's motives for
causing third impact, why did he fight SEELE at all? Why not give them Adam
and Lilith and let them carry out complementation on their own?


Michael Wignall

未読、
2002/10/22 6:40:182002/10/22
To:
"Diamon" <postm...@127.0.0.1> wrote in message
news:7g9t9.80390$kF.12...@twister.columbus.rr.com...

> "Michael Wignall" <use...@mdwigs.tk> wrote in message
> news:Ph0t9.18171$Sr6.5...@ozemail.com.au...
> > Eva-01 wasn't a stand in for Adam. As SEELE say in EoE:
>
> Doesn't someone within NERV ( Fuyyutski I belive ) specifically
> state theat SEELE is using Eva-01 in place of Adam?

I don't think so. Have you got a quote?

> > SEELE 01 (Keel): "The promised time has come. With the Lance
> > of Longinus now lost, complementation using Lilith is impossible.
> > Our only hope is to proceed with EVA-01, Lilith's sole clone."
> >
> > Eva-01 was a stand in for Lilith, as Eva-01 was the only clone
> > of Lilith.
>
> But the Lance is used to pierce the core of Eva-01, so doesn't that
> blow a hole in the idea of using Eva-01 instead of Lilith because
> the Lance was lost?

No, because SEELE didn't have the lance originally, they didn't
expect the lance to come back either. They had to use Eva-01
precisely because they didn't have the lance to start with.

> > For SEELE Rei wasn't necessary at all. SEELE were going to
> > use Eva-01 and the MP Evas.
> >
> > Gendou on the other hand wasn't going to use Eva-01 at all,
> > his plan was to use Rei (with Lilith's soul) Adam (in his hand)
> > and Lilith herself down in terminal dogma.
> >
> > The reason it is so confusing in EoE is that what we saw was
> > a mix of both what SEELE planned and what Gendou planned.
>
> Interesting, but doesn't the time the Chamber of Gaf opens
> ( and everyone turns into LCL ) the same time as Eva-01
> enters into Lilith ( who now contains Adam ) ?

It didn't have to happen that way though. Eva-01 and the MP Evas
were well under way to producing an Anti-AT Field before Lilith
showed up. When Lilith did show up, then she "took over" so to
speak, merged with Eva-01, and then deployed the Anti-AT Field
herself.

Michael Wignall

未読、
2002/10/22 6:49:592002/10/22
To:
"Diamon" <postm...@127.0.0.1> wrote in message
news:PA9t9.80391$kF.12...@twister.columbus.rr.com...

> One additional point...
> "Michael Wignall" <use...@mdwigs.tk> wrote in message
> news:Ph0t9.18171$Sr6.5...@ozemail.com.au...
> > Gendou on the other hand wasn't going to use Eva-01 at all,
> > his plan was to use Rei (with Lilith's soul) Adam (in his hand)
> > and Lilith herself down in terminal dogma.
>
> If all Gendou's version of complementation requires was Rei,
> Adam and Lilith why did Gendou wait so long? I'd think as soon
> as Kaji arrived with Adam that Gendou would start third impact.
> Why would he bother taking the time of getting Adam implanted
> in his hand and then waiting around until SEELE started their version
> of third impact and risk foiling his plans? After all as soon as SEELE
> realized Gendou's plan they tried killing everyone off, Gendou included.

Becuase all the Angels had to be defeated. He couldn't start it until that
had been done. Also note that there is a defiante count down on this,
the NERV tech crew are sitting around watching it at one point.

> Of course another question big picture is considering Gendou's
> motives for causing third impact, why did he fight SEELE at all?
> Why not give them Adam and Lilith and let them carry out
> complementation on their own?

Becuase he wanted Rei to specifically "take him to Yui's side.
As Gendou says himself at the beginning of episode 26'

"Adam and I are now as one... For this is the only way to be
with Yui again. The forbidden joining of Adam and Lilith. "

Frank White

未読、
2002/10/22 10:05:212002/10/22
To:
In article <PA9t9.80391$kF.12...@twister.columbus.rr.com>,
postm...@127.0.0.1 says...

>
>One additional point...
>
>"Michael Wignall" <use...@mdwigs.tk> wrote in message
>news:Ph0t9.18171$Sr6.5...@ozemail.com.au...
>> Gendou on the other hand wasn't going to use Eva-01 at all,
>> his plan was to use Rei (with Lilith's soul) Adam (in his hand)
>> and Lilith herself down in terminal dogma.
>
>If all Gendou's version of complementation requires was Rei, Adam and
Lilith
>why did Gendou wait so long? I'd think as soon as Kaji arrived with
Adam
>that Gendou would start third impact. Why would he bother taking the
time
>of getting Adam implanted in his hand and then waiting around until
SEELE
>started their version of third impact and risk foiling his plans? After
all
>as soon as SEELE realized Gendou's plan they tried killing everyone off,
>Gendou included.

You are assuming the timing was up to Gendo. Instead, it
appears the Dead Sea scrolls laid out a specific sequence
that had to be followed (defeat the Angels, gather the
components, trigger Third Impact) and that he couldn't
divert from it and the timeline involved, no matter what
else was happening, or his plan wouldn't weork.

>Of course another question big picture is considering Gendou's motives
for
>causing third impact, why did he fight SEELE at all? Why not give them
Adam
>and Lilith and let them carry out complementation on their own?

Because the Instrumentality THEY wanted was not the Instrumentality
HE wanted. He wanted Yui back. They wanted... God knows what.
But probably the desires on their flunky wouldn't rank very
high on their list.

The only way Gendo could win was to hijack SEELE's plan.

Which he did.

FW

Diamon

未読、
2002/10/22 17:03:212002/10/22
To:
"Michael Wignall" <use...@mdwigs.tk> wrote in message
news:A3at9.18433$Sr6.5...@ozemail.com.au...

> > Doesn't someone within NERV ( Fuyyutski I belive ) specifically
> > state theat SEELE is using Eva-01 in place of Adam?
>
> I don't think so. Have you got a quote?

I was mistaken. What I was misremembeing was Fuuyutski saying they were
planning to use Unit-01 as a medium.

> > But the Lance is used to pierce the core of Eva-01, so doesn't that
> > blow a hole in the idea of using Eva-01 instead of Lilith because
> > the Lance was lost?
>
> No, because SEELE didn't have the lance originally, they didn't
> expect the lance to come back either. They had to use Eva-01
> precisely because they didn't have the lance to start with.

But upon the Lance returning Keel comments "At long last, our dreams will be
realized." and Seele 04 says "The original Lance of Longinus has been
returned to us." Which impled, to me at least, that the Lance was necessary
for their plans.

> > Interesting, but doesn't the time the Chamber of Gaf opens
> > ( and everyone turns into LCL ) the same time as Eva-01
> > enters into Lilith ( who now contains Adam ) ?
>
> It didn't have to happen that way though. Eva-01 and the MP Evas
> were well under way to producing an Anti-AT Field before Lilith
> showed up. When Lilith did show up, then she "took over" so to
> speak, merged with Eva-01, and then deployed the Anti-AT Field
> herself.

It's interesting to consider all the variables of:

Gendou's plan for complementation

SEELE's plan for complementation

Complementation as it happened

How third impact with the Angels continuing on.

> > If all Gendou's version of complementation requires was Rei,
> > Adam and Lilith why did Gendou wait so long? I'd think as soon
> > as Kaji arrived with Adam that Gendou would start third impact.
> > Why would he bother taking the time of getting Adam implanted
> > in his hand and then waiting around until SEELE started their version
> > of third impact and risk foiling his plans? After all as soon as SEELE
> > realized Gendou's plan they tried killing everyone off, Gendou
included.
>

> Becuase all the Angels had to be defeated. He couldn't start it until that
> had been done. Also note that there is a defiante count down on this,
> the NERV tech crew are sitting around watching it at one point.

I hadn't considered that.

Thanks, for your time.


Michael Wignall

未読、
2002/10/22 19:38:132002/10/22
To:
"Diamon" <postm...@127.0.0.1> wrote in message
news:t2jt9.82367$kF.13...@twister.columbus.rr.com...

> "Michael Wignall" <use...@mdwigs.tk> wrote in message
> news:A3at9.18433$Sr6.5...@ozemail.com.au...
> > > But the Lance is used to pierce the core of Eva-01, so doesn't that
> > > blow a hole in the idea of using Eva-01 instead of Lilith because
> > > the Lance was lost?
> >
> > No, because SEELE didn't have the lance originally, they didn't
> > expect the lance to come back either. They had to use Eva-01
> > precisely because they didn't have the lance to start with.
>
> But upon the Lance returning Keel comments "At long last, our
> dreams will be realized." and Seele 04 says "The original Lance
> of Longinus has been returned to us." Which impled, to me at
> least, that the Lance was necessaryfor their plans.

It might have implied that, except that previously SEELE explicitly
state:

SEELE 01 (Keel): "The promised time has come. With the Lance
of Longinus now lost, complementation using Lilith is impossible.
Our only hope is to proceed with EVA-01, Lilith's sole clone."

The very next line in the sequence you quoted is "While somewhat fewer
than planned, it will have to do." This shows clearly that what is happen
has diverged from SEELEs plan.

Just becuase the lance came back doesn't change the fact that originally
they state that it is _impossible_ to use Lilith becuase they didn't have
the lance.

Whatever implication you may think is in the passage is effectively
negated by the direct statements SEELE make eariler.

BC

未読、
2002/11/06 5:43:162002/11/06
To:
In article <ur8o105...@corp.supernews.com>, "vagrant"
<too...@coserv.net> wrote:

>I'm new to the series but here are some thoughts...Its true that they were
>put into dangerous situations but for the most part eva01 was closely looked
>after. Unit00 provided defense while Unit01 used that big cannon again
>Ramiel in episode 5, Rei herself is expendable...she even said it herself "I
>can be replaced." Unit01 wasnt the one to go into the lava to capture
>Sandalphon in episode 10...it was Unit02, Unit01 was safely on the surface
>out of potential harms way. When Unit01 was swallowed by Leliel in 16,
>Unit01's return was top priority. My conjecture about the dummy plug being
>activated was so that Eva Unit03 wouldnt completely destroy Unit01, a safety
>measure. Also throughout other battles Unit01 was kept in cryostasis and
>was then launched in emergencies. But then again I could be wrong because
>I've only seen the series twice through so my brain is still quite numb.
>I'm interested in learning ppl's takes on this..
>
>[vagrant]

so what exactly happened to "Adam"? Didn't they recovered some cells of
his which regenerated itself? The last time I remember seeing it was when
it was delievered to Nerv. It was kinda an embryo thingie at that stage.

<=[BC]=>

J.C. Bengtson

未読、
2002/11/06 8:32:322002/11/06
To:
BC wrote:
> so what exactly happened to "Adam"? Didn't they recovered some cells of
> his which regenerated itself? The last time I remember seeing it was when
> it was delievered to Nerv. It was kinda an embryo thingie at that stage.

Gendo had the embryo (which Kaji delivered) embedded in his hand, which
is why he stuck his hand into Rei in EoE.. it was the joining of Adam
and Lillith again. That's also why they made the point of showing him
with his glove(s) off at that particular scene. Of course, this would
have been more apparent if most of the scenes related to this weren't
cut out of the main series, and only made available via the Director's
Cuts...

--
J.C. Bengtson - "Makoru"
* http://home.ptd.net/~golbez
* http://sailorscout.redversusblue.com

Frank White

未読、
2002/11/06 9:34:122002/11/06
To:
In article <animus-0611...@p753-apx1.akl.ihug.co.nz>,
ani...@ihug.co.nz says...

The embryo is all that remains of Adam after all of his energy
was released in Second Impact. He's been reduced to his most
basic point.

FW

Sundog1966

未読、
2002/11/08 22:18:582002/11/08
To:
On Tue, 22 Oct 2002 09:55:15 GMT, "Diamon" <postm...@127.0.0.1>
wrote:

Minor correction if I remeber my christian mythology
the Chamber of Guft was where new soulds were kept and when it was
empty the end of the world would come.

Anyone that can provide references to this owuld be appreciated thanks

I think the word guft is actually hebrew.

Sam Reeves

未読、
2002/11/10 7:35:232002/11/10
To:
I think it's actually a Hebrew belief the Guft, I saw it in this movie once,
about revelations, but Im pretty sure it's hebrew, I cant see it anywhere
else in the bible

SAM


"Sundog1966" <sundo...@sympatico.com> wrote in message
news:3vuosu8s55mlpespb...@4ax.com...

KAL

未読、
2002/11/10 8:16:102002/11/10
To:

"Sam Reeves" <alaka...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:fosz9.8993$eX.2...@news-server.bigpond.net.au...

I swear that if Anno gets in my hands..i will strungle him....
guys ..i can't sleep in the nights...i am constantly trying to
understand him...i bet Anno doesn't get out ... or else he would be
dead now by anyone.... grrrr


Chaoz...@sbcglobal.net

未読、
2002/11/25 1:20:252002/11/25
To:
Actually, the Chamber of "Guf" (as I have seen spelled most commonly) is
referred to in the Talmud -- a Hebrew text. Accordingly, when the Chamber
is empty of souls the Messiah (Shinji??!?) will come forth.

Of course, if this is the case ... was Shinji perhaps the last soul in the
Chamber? SOMEBODY had to be last.....

ChaozEngine


Kakarotto

未読、
2002/11/25 1:49:272002/11/25
To:

<Chaoz...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:JijE9.4362$br.195...@newssvr12.news.prodigy.com...
>
> +_+_+SNIPIT+_+_+

>
> Of course, if this is the case ... was Shinji perhaps the last soul in the
> Chamber? SOMEBODY had to be last.....
>

Think of the wee babies, the wee babies, Shinji is not a wee baby.


Chaoz...@sbcglobal.net

未読、
2002/11/28 1:31:482002/11/28
To:

"Kakarotto" <kaka...@xtra.co.nz> wrote in message
news:jYjE9.1236$_h6....@news.xtra.co.nz...

Well now that you bring that up ....

Do we ACTUALLY see any children younger than Shinji?

ChaozEngine


Chaoz...@sbcglobal.net

未読、
2002/11/28 2:15:132002/11/28
To:

> Well now that you bring that up ....
>
> Do we ACTUALLY see any children younger than Shinji?
>
> ChaozEngine
>
>

I correct myself - Toji's little sister......

(mumbles incoherently as he walks away)

ChaozEngine


Matt Durrant

未読、
2002/11/28 14:15:552002/11/28
To:

Aha! You'd think so - but actually, she isn't real! It's a projection of
Touji's inner guilt of his self-confidence lowering as he finds himself in
depression from the lack of a Freudian philosophy to explain the general
schizophrenic moonage daydream of autisic inner psychology!

Anyway... The existence of Touji's younger sister is quite interesting,
since it means Shinji isn't, as some theories say, special as he's the last
soul from the Hall of Gaf/whatever.
Unless his sister's a) soulless or b) _older_ than Shinji... Maybe she's
Touji's twin sister, or Touji's actually 15 and has been held back... Do you
have to be 14 to pilot an Eva? Or, Touji's sister is the youngest person on
Earth, and has some hidden power or something... Still, you'd think someone
would mention that no one under 14 exists. And I'm just slightly mad for
following this line of inquiry.


Mef

未読、
2002/12/01 1:02:352002/12/01
To:
Except for the fact that you do see younger children in the underground
shelters. But maybe they dont have souls. But then that wouldnt make any
sence.

-Mef

"Matt Durrant" <mat...@durrant33.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message

news:as5q11$m9q$1...@news5.svr.pol.co.uk...

Lave Voronov

未読、
2002/12/08 21:54:382002/12/08
To:
You have to be 14 to pilot an eva, all the children that are eligible are
born 9 months after the second impact. This means all of the mothers were
pregnant at the time of the impact, and also, on this note, the children are
all without their mothers in 2015 as they have died. It is said that
Shinjis classmates are all candidates, as they all seem to be 14 and
motherless.


"Matt Durrant" <mat...@durrant33.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message

news:as5q11$m9q$1...@news5.svr.pol.co.uk...

Lave Voronov

未読、
2002/12/08 21:57:062002/12/08
To:
Everyone on the earth has a soul, hence the scene in EoE when all of the
souls are rising from the earh to rejoin with Lilith. Children were often
mentioned (I.E Ep 02 The 24 hour mart discussion between two women), I just
don't think they were meant to be a relative part of the story.


Michael Wignall

未読、
2002/12/08 22:38:522002/12/08
To:
"Lave Voronov" <ev...@ev-a.net> wrote in message
news:OBTI9.2903$zS2.3...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...

> You have to be 14 to pilot an eva, all the children that are
> eligible are born 9 months after the second impact. This
> means all of the mothers were pregnant at the time of the impact,

That's not true. The ADV video cover that states that is incorrect.
The children were _not_ all born 9 months after the second impact.
There were born at many different times, and their birthdates are
merely references to their Japanese voice actors. Shinji for instance
is born on June 6th, while Asuka is born on December 4th, the same
birthdays of their respective voice actors.

> and also, on this note, the children are all without their mothers in
> 2015 as they have died.

Not necessarily. It is said that they have "lost" their mothers. We don't
know that they died as such. Yui certainly didn't "die", she was taken
into the Eva.

> It is said that Shinjis classmates are all candidates, as they all seem
> to be 14 and motherless.

The common link between all the pilot candidates is that they have
"lost" their mothers. This is an important fact to consider when thinking
about the souls of the Evas and how the pilots control them via the
A-10 nerve.

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