Underpaid, eh?
Kevin Gowen
--
Kevin Gowen
"The US economy accounts for about one-third of global GDP-greater than the
next four countries combined (Japan, Germany, the United Kingdom and
France)."
- "Advancing the National Interest: Australia's Foreign and Trade Policy
White Paper", Australian Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade
John W.
> http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=33485
Yep.
"Union officials note while teachers may work shorter job hours, they
do a lot of work outside the classroom, such as grading papers, which
is not compensated."
John W.
Kevin Gowen
> "Kevin Gowen" <kgowen...@myfastmail.com> wrote in message
> news:<bei31q$5dbad$1...@ID-105084.news.dfncis.de>...
>> http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=33485
>
> Yep.
Nope, but feel free to tell us how much teachers should make and what the
indicators are that tell us that they are underpaid.
> "Union officials note while teachers may work shorter job hours, they
> do a lot of work outside the classroom, such as grading papers, which
> is not compensated."
Union officials note lots of silly things, like the very silly note they
make above. I wonder if they noted that teachers are not the only profession
in the world that brings their work home. Teachers, like many other workers,
are not paid based on performance. I don't know if you have ever been a
salaried worker, but they generally get paid the same regardless of how much
they work. I presume that you have at least worked hourly jobs before, so
you must know that one generally gets paid the same per hour whether one
flips 40 burgers in that hour or 80.
I hasten to add that grading papers can be done during work hours. Teachers
are not teaching in the classroom every minute they are in the school
building. Once this fact is considered, the hourly wage of a teacher jumps
up even further. I would be very surprised to learn that the average
teacher's classroom time, grading of papers, lesson planning et cetera add
up to over 40 hours a week.
Prof. Vedder's article may be found at
http://www.educationnext.org/20033/14.html
John W.
> John W. wrote:
> > "Kevin Gowen" <kgowen...@myfastmail.com> wrote in message
> > news:<bei31q$5dbad$1...@ID-105084.news.dfncis.de>...
> >> http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=33485
> >
> > Yep.
>
> Nope, but feel free to tell us how much teachers should make and what the
> indicators are that tell us that they are underpaid.
>
the area where they teach. Sounds simple, but it doesn't always work
that way. Rarely do teachers get fair living wage increases. Someone
making $40,000 a year in East Tennessee can live nicely (if they have
a dual income family); but that's also the salary teachers made near
where I lived in Berkeley, barely enough to give any hope of ever
buying a house.
> > "Union officials note while teachers may work shorter job hours, they
> > do a lot of work outside the classroom, such as grading papers, which
> > is not compensated."
>
> Union officials note lots of silly things, like the very silly note they
> make above. I wonder if they noted that teachers are not the only profession
> in the world that brings their work home. Teachers, like many other workers,
> are not paid based on performance. I don't know if you have ever been a
> salaried worker, but they generally get paid the same regardless of how much
> they work. I presume that you have at least worked hourly jobs before, so
> you must know that one generally gets paid the same per hour whether one
> flips 40 burgers in that hour or 80.
>
> I hasten to add that grading papers can be done during work hours. Teachers
> are not teaching in the classroom every minute they are in the school
> building. Once this fact is considered, the hourly wage of a teacher jumps
> up even further. I would be very surprised to learn that the average
> teacher's classroom time, grading of papers, lesson planning et cetera add
> up to over 40 hours a week.
>
My friend is a school teacher. Now, granted he works in a small
private school (and the article correctly notes his lower salary
compared to public schools), but his schedule is fairly routine. His
day starts at 7:30 and lasts until 4:00, well over eight hours. He
teaches six classes in the high school (the school has seven), mostly
different levels of English. His one free class period is often used
not for grading, but for meeting with the school head, calling on
parents, taking care of the class, etc. He also has lunchroom duty in
the morning (thus the early hours) and does class prep before school
(current events stuff for his classes). Now, without even grading a
paper or planning a lesson he's got in eight hours; add at least 30
minutes per paper needing graded (more or less depending on the
paper), mid term reports, end of terms reports, parent teacher
conferences, etc. and it comes out to well over eight hours. Oh, and,
like most teachers, he has to buy many of his supplies with his own
money. And, while it's not the standard, he also coaches volleyball
and tennis (used to coach basketball, but it was just too much).
John W.
Jason Cormier
"Kevin Gowen" <kgowen...@myfastmail.com> wrote:
> I hasten to add that grading papers can be done during work hours.
A teacher's job is not only teaching classes and grading papers. There are
other things that must also be done during work hours, or outside of them.
> Teachers
> are not teaching in the classroom every minute they are in the school
> building. Once this fact is considered, the hourly wage of a teacher jumps
> up even further. I would be very surprised to learn that the average
> teacher's classroom time, grading of papers, lesson planning et cetera add
> up to over 40 hours a week.
Then I guess that I surprise you.
Curt Fischer
Do you average 40 hrs/week over a 52 week period?
--
Curt Fischer
Greg Macdonald
used up some bandwidth to say:
I don't know about him, but I do. Stating that only time spent in
front of a student should count as 'work' is as dumb as saying
firefighters are only working when they are actually fighting fires.
Jason Cormier
<cr...@po.cwru.edu> wrote:
>>> I hasten to add that grading papers can be done during work hours.
>>
>> A teacher's job is not only teaching classes and grading papers. There are
>> other things that must also be done during work hours, or outside of them.
>>
>>> Teachers
>>> are not teaching in the classroom every minute they are in the school
>>> building. Once this fact is considered, the hourly wage of a teacher jumps
>>> up even further. I would be very surprised to learn that the average
>>> teacher's classroom time, grading of papers, lesson planning et cetera add
>>> up to over 40 hours a week.
>>
>> Then I guess that I surprise you.
>
> Do you average 40 hrs/week over a 52 week period?
So no other job offers any paid vacation? Wouldn't it be more accurate to
ask if I do so over 46-50 weeks? Most professional jobs in Canada offer
about 4 weeks of vacation, so I'll use 48 weeks. The answer would be that I
do. Factor in teaching, prep, marking, meetings, extra-curricular,
curriculum groups, extra help for students, mandatory courses (thanks to our
lovely PLP program in Ontario), retreats, department responsibilities,
on-call coverage, lunch supervision, etc., I'm quite confident in saying
that I average over 40 hours a week.
Jason Cormier
Macdonald" <mr_mac_...@SPAMSUCKShotmail.com> wrote:
> I don't know about him, but I do. Stating that only time spent in
> front of a student should count as 'work' is as dumb as saying
> firefighters are only working when they are actually fighting fires.
...or that a lawyer is only working when he/she is in court.
Ernest Schaal
worth...@yahoo.com wrote on 7/11/03 9:59 PM:
> I think teachers should get paid enough to allow them to buy a home in
> the area where they teach. Sounds simple, but it doesn't always work
> that way. Rarely do teachers get fair living wage increases. Someone
> making $40,000 a year in East Tennessee can live nicely (if they have
> a dual income family); but that's also the salary teachers made near
> where I lived in Berkeley, barely enough to give any hope of ever
> buying a house.
John, I think that it is impractical to assume that a teacher should be paid
enough to allow them to buy a home in the area where they teach when that
area is in the SF Bay area. As we both know, the prices of housing in the SF
Bay area is extremely high, which means that many of the teachers,
policemen, firemen, and other governmental employees have to either commute
or rent.
It isn't that teachers are underpaid (they aren't), it is just that the cost
of housing is so high because of the SF economy, weather, and other factors
that make people want to live there.
Kevin Gowen
> "Kevin Gowen" <kgowen...@myfastmail.com> wrote in message
> news:<bel1pq$6erpl$1...@ID-105084.news.uni-berlin.de>...
>> John W. wrote:
>>> "Kevin Gowen" <kgowen...@myfastmail.com> wrote in message
>>> news:<bei31q$5dbad$1...@ID-105084.news.dfncis.de>...
>>>> http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=33485
>>>
>>> Yep.
>>
>> Nope, but feel free to tell us how much teachers should make and
>> what the
>> indicators are that tell us that they are underpaid.
>>
> I think teachers should get paid enough to allow them to buy a home in
> the area where they teach.
Now this is just outlandish. Why should this standard not apply to every
other occupation?
> Sounds simple, but it doesn't always work
> that way.
No, it sounds idiotic.
> Rarely do teachers get fair living wage increases.
What a fair living wage increase?
> Someone
> making $40,000 a year in East Tennessee can live nicely (if they have
> a dual income family); but that's also the salary teachers made near
> where I lived in Berkeley, barely enough to give any hope of ever
> buying a house.
Oh well. The last I check, become a teacher was a voluntary choice, even
near where you live in Berkeley, I suspect.
Splendid. So do I. (public school in Detroit)
> Now, granted he works in a small
> private school (and the article correctly notes his lower salary
> compared to public schools), but his schedule is fairly routine. His
> day starts at 7:30 and lasts until 4:00, well over eight hours.
I suppose if 8.5 hours is "well over" eight. He doesn't eat lunch?
> He
> teaches six classes in the high school (the school has seven), mostly
> different levels of English.
How long are the periods?
> His one free class period is often used
> not for grading, but for meeting with the school head, calling on
> parents, taking care of the class, etc. He also has lunchroom duty in
> the morning (thus the early hours) and does class prep before school
> (current events stuff for his classes). Now, without even grading a
> paper or planning a lesson he's got in eight hours; add at least 30
> minutes per paper needing graded (more or less depending on the
> paper), mid term reports, end of terms reports, parent teacher
> conferences, etc. and it comes out to well over eight hours. Oh, and,
> like most teachers, he has to buy many of his supplies with his own
> money. And, while it's not the standard, he also coaches volleyball
> and tennis (used to coach basketball, but it was just too much).
Wow. The person in you sample of one sure is busy. It's lucky for me that
the friend who composes my sample of one cancels him out.
--
Kevin Gowen
"It hurts when my 8-year-old daughter wants to go to the movies or even
have a meal at McDonald's and I have to say, 'No, Mommy can't afford
it.' If I had gotten a tax cut, I would spend it on the mountain of
bills that face me. Like millions of other working people, I would have
put that money right back into the economy."
- Margaret Gaffin, who does not understand that to be eligible for a
tax cut, one must pay taxes
Kevin Gowen
> On 7/10/03 20:52, in article
> bel1pq$6erpl$1...@ID-105084.news.uni-berlin.de, "Kevin Gowen"
> <kgowen...@myfastmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I hasten to add that grading papers can be done during work hours.
>
> A teacher's job is not only teaching classes and grading papers.
> There are other things that must also be done during work hours, or
> outside of them.
Grading papers was the point raised by the union clowns. I can only knock
down the arguments they raise.
>> Teachers
>> are not teaching in the classroom every minute they are in the school
>> building. Once this fact is considered, the hourly wage of a teacher
>> jumps up even further. I would be very surprised to learn that the
>> average teacher's classroom time, grading of papers, lesson planning
>> et cetera add up to over 40 hours a week.
>
> Then I guess that I surprise you.
I did not know that a sample of one could be the average.
Kevin Gowen
That's why they tend to have billable hours. You know, that linking of pay
to productivity that teacher unions make quite sure never comes to be.
Curt Fischer
Jason Cormier wrote:
>
> On 7/11/03 12:02, in article 3F0EDF85...@po.cwru.edu, "Curt Fischer"
> <cr...@po.cwru.edu> wrote:
>
>
> >>> I hasten to add that grading papers can be done during work hours.
> >>
> >> A teacher's job is not only teaching classes and grading papers. There are
> >> other things that must also be done during work hours, or outside of them.
> >>
> >>> Teachers
> >>> are not teaching in the classroom every minute they are in the school
> >>> building. Once this fact is considered, the hourly wage of a teacher jumps
> >>> up even further. I would be very surprised to learn that the average
> >>> teacher's classroom time, grading of papers, lesson planning et cetera add
> >>> up to over 40 hours a week.
> >>
> >> Then I guess that I surprise you.
> >
> > Do you average 40 hrs/week over a 52 week period?
>
> So no other job offers any paid vacation? Wouldn't it be more accurate to
> ask if I do so over 46-50 weeks? Most professional jobs in Canada offer
> about 4 weeks of vacation, so I'll use 48 weeks.
OK, no argument from me. Of course, I bet even given vacation, many
other professions average 40 hrs over 52 weeks.
> The answer would be that I
> do. Factor in teaching, prep, marking, meetings, extra-curricular,
When I was in high school I was amazed at how much time extracurriculars
took up for the teachers. Technically they were optional for teachers,
and if you "signed up" to do one, you got a little extra cash. But the
stipend was almost nothing and the pressure to sign up was huge. You de
facto were required to be the 2nd assistant junior varsity girls track
coach, or whatever.
> curriculum groups, extra help for students, mandatory courses (thanks to our
> lovely PLP program in Ontario), retreats, department responsibilities,
> on-call coverage, lunch supervision, etc., I'm quite confident in saying
> that I average over 40 hours a week.
Wow that sounds bad. I was well aware in high school that most of my
teachers had miserable schedules. School started at 7:30 and many
didn't get to go home until 8:00 or later. But I think that department
responsibilities were minimal, and I have no idea what "on-call
coverage" is.
--
Curt Fischer
Michael Cash
(Greg Macdonald) belched the alphabet and kept on going with:
How long is summer vacation in the Great White North? Any other
vacations that run at least a week or more?
--
Michael Cash
"There was a time, Mr. Cash, when I believed you must be the most useless
thing in the world. But that was before I read a Microsoft help file."
Prof. Ernest T. Bass
Mount Pilot College
Michael Cash
belched the alphabet and kept on going with:
>
>
>Jason Cormier wrote:
>>
>> On 7/11/03 12:02, in article 3F0EDF85...@po.cwru.edu, "Curt Fischer"
>> <cr...@po.cwru.edu> wrote:
>>
>>
>> >>> I hasten to add that grading papers can be done during work hours.
>> >>
>> >> A teacher's job is not only teaching classes and grading papers. There are
>> >> other things that must also be done during work hours, or outside of them.
>> >>
>> >>> Teachers
>> >>> are not teaching in the classroom every minute they are in the school
>> >>> building. Once this fact is considered, the hourly wage of a teacher jumps
>> >>> up even further. I would be very surprised to learn that the average
>> >>> teacher's classroom time, grading of papers, lesson planning et cetera add
>> >>> up to over 40 hours a week.
>> >>
>> >> Then I guess that I surprise you.
>> >
>> > Do you average 40 hrs/week over a 52 week period?
>>
>> So no other job offers any paid vacation? Wouldn't it be more accurate to
>> ask if I do so over 46-50 weeks? Most professional jobs in Canada offer
>> about 4 weeks of vacation, so I'll use 48 weeks.
>
>OK, no argument from me. Of course, I bet even given vacation, many
>other professions average 40 hrs over 52 weeks.
I'm sitting here thinking, "What the fuck is this fixation on 40 hours
a week? What the hell can you get done in 40 hours anyway?"
I realize this is entirely the result of my having an extremely warped
perspective on stuff like this, so no one should take the following
comment too seriously (I certainly don't)....but all this talk about
having to work a few hours over 40 each week sounds like a bunch of
whiny-assed crybabies to me.
John Yamamoto-Wilson
> perspective on stuff like this, so no one should take the following
> comment too seriously (I certainly don't)....but all this talk about
> having to work a few hours over 40 each week sounds like a bunch of
> whiny-assed crybabies to me.
OK, this may be a bit of a serious reply to something said at least partly
tongue in cheek, but...
I think the tendency in the UK (or, more specifically, England) to sneer at
teachers - not to mention hold them responsible for about three-quarters of
society's failings - really took off in the Thatcher period, but has its
origins in the 1960s.
In the '50s, the pre-war ethos, in which the vicar, the doctor and the
schoolteacher were the pillars of any community, was still largely intact.
Then - mainly because of what I would call a misguided political
philosophy - various changes in the curriculum and organisation of schooling
were introduced, ranging from not teaching children to read until they had
grown past a stage in which they were (supposedly) interested in physical
concepts (i.e., building blocks and suchlike) to abandoning streaming for
ability in many schools. In further and higher education we saw the salaries
of teachers at tertiary colleges shoot up higher than those of university
teachers (with the beneficiaries not infrequently then signing up for
university courses to justify the increase in their salaries!).
The results at school level were (predictably) a quantum leap in the number
of children missing the educational boat, and ending up still unable to read
properly or do basic arithmetic, etc., by the time they were 16. At the
tertiary level, many of the top academics simply left the country to work
abroad. The reassertion of the Conservative right involved further changes
which - again - were mainly politically motivated, and did little to improve
the situation, except perhaps for those who were in significantly
above-average income brackets.
Now, I'm not opposed to reform as such, and anyone who takes initiatives
that improve the situation gets my blessing. But these reforms were, on the
whole, destabilising, and had negative spin-off results on society as a
whole. The biggest irony, especially during the 1970s and 80s, was the
parents of the "new British" from former colonies, where the old-style
education system (which, for all its faults, did pretty much guarantee a
grounding in the "three Rs" for all and - constraints of parental income
aside - a crack at university entrance for the gifted) was still in place.
They thought England would be the bees-knees, that their children would be
getting the world-famous English education (like they would have had in
their home country) from the horse's mouth - only to find that the system
they thought they were opting into had been overturned.
Now, it's not really in the nature of politicians to say, "Sorry, everyone!
Between our own ideological agendas and our quarrels with our political
adversaries we've really rather cocked things up here." On the contrary,
they did everything they could to blame the ills, not only of the
educational system but of society as a whole, on the teaching profession - a
message which was picked up by the media, who bayed it long and loud.
This got to such a point that, pretty much whenever I struck up a
conversation with anyone in a pub or somewhere, as soon as it emerged that I
was a teacher things would get strained. "Why do you get such long
holidays?" "Why are so many kids leaving school without the basics?" etc.,
etc., sometimes leading to the other person stalking off in disdain.
Teachers even took to putting up stickers on their cars to counter the
general vilification of teachers that was going on. One was, "If you can
read this, thank a teacher."
Of the former pillars of English society, the doctor is (relatively)
unscathed, the vicar has become largely irrelevant, and the teacher is
reduced to being a maligned shadow of his/her former self.
The only problem with that is that it puts good people off wanting to be
teachers, and society sets itself on a downward spiral that's rather
difficult to reverse.
Curt Fischer
Well, 40 hours is a convenient reference point, because then ＿everyone
＿ can be putting more hours than your "average" guy, and complain about
it.
--
Curt Fischer
John W.
> John W. wrote:
> > "Kevin Gowen" <kgowen...@myfastmail.com> wrote in message
> > news:<bel1pq$6erpl$1...@ID-105084.news.uni-berlin.de>...
> >> John W. wrote:
> >>> "Kevin Gowen" <kgowen...@myfastmail.com> wrote in message
> >>> news:<bei31q$5dbad$1...@ID-105084.news.dfncis.de>...
> >>>> http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=33485
> >>>
> >>> Yep.
> >>
> >> Nope, but feel free to tell us how much teachers should make and
> >> what the
> >> indicators are that tell us that they are underpaid.
> >>
> > I think teachers should get paid enough to allow them to buy a home in
> > the area where they teach.
>
> Now this is just outlandish. Why should this standard not apply to every
> other occupation?
>
excellent mortgage rates compared to other professionals, and IIRC
they can get up to 50% discount on HUD homes.
> > Sounds simple, but it doesn't always work
> > that way.
>
> No, it sounds idiotic.
>
Why? You've obviously never worked your ass off, made a decent salary,
and still been unable to buy even the cheapest house.
> > Rarely do teachers get fair living wage increases.
>
> What a fair living wage increase?
>
It's a wage increase that allows for the higher cost of living in a
certain area.
> > Someone
> > making $40,000 a year in East Tennessee can live nicely (if they have
> > a dual income family); but that's also the salary teachers made near
> > where I lived in Berkeley, barely enough to give any hope of ever
> > buying a house.
>
> Oh well. The last I check, become a teacher was a voluntary choice, even
> near where you live in Berkeley, I suspect.
>
I don't live in Berkeley any more. But even so, would you suggest that
no teachers live in expensive areas? I suppose that's one way to make
the cost of living go down.
>
> Wow. The person in you sample of one sure is busy. It's lucky for me that
> the friend who composes my sample of one cancels him out.
Then I feel bad for that person's students. Or is he a gym teacher?
John W.
Kevin Gowen
> "Kevin Gowen" <kgowen...@myfastmail.com> wrote in message
> news:<ben9bq$6l3c4$1...@ID-105084.news.uni-berlin.de>...
>> John W. wrote:
>>> "Kevin Gowen" <kgowen...@myfastmail.com> wrote in message
>>> news:<bel1pq$6erpl$1...@ID-105084.news.uni-berlin.de>...
>>>> John W. wrote:
>>>>> "Kevin Gowen" <kgowen...@myfastmail.com> wrote in message
>>>>> news:<bei31q$5dbad$1...@ID-105084.news.dfncis.de>...
>>>>>> http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=33485
>>>>>
>>>>> Yep.
>>>>
>>>> Nope, but feel free to tell us how much teachers should make and
>>>> what the
>>>> indicators are that tell us that they are underpaid.
>>>>
>>> I think teachers should get paid enough to allow them to buy a home
>>> in
>>> the area where they teach.
>>
>> Now this is just outlandish. Why should this standard not apply to
>> every
>> other occupation?
>>
> It should.
Even a percursory look at an economics textbook shows this to be an idiotic
statement. If everyone were paid at least enough for them to purchase their
own homes (and you haven't defined purchase, but I'll assume it means
putting down a 20% down payment and mortgaging the rest), that wage increase
would spread through the economy and raise other wages, and thereby prices,
accordingly. This is why raising the minimum wage never does a damn thing.
What you are calling for is a turbo charged minimum wage.
We'll ignore for now the many factors that go into determining whether or
not one can afford a home such as the minimum down payment, property tax
rate, hazard insurance rate, PMI, and housing and long term debt-to-income
ratio.
> Actually, teachers and police officers can get some
> excellent mortgage rates compared to other professionals, and IIRC
> they can get up to 50% discount on HUD homes.
That's very nice. I must point out that teachers and police officers are not
the only occupations in the nation.
>>> Sounds simple, but it doesn't always work
>>> that way.
>>
>> No, it sounds idiotic.
>>
> Why? You've obviously never worked your ass off, made a decent salary,
> and still been unable to buy even the cheapest house.
How is this obvious? Because I disagree with your economically inept
statement? Please define "working one's ass off", "decent salary" and
"buying a house". You have a rather curious fixation on homeownership as
some sort of benchmark.
>>> Rarely do teachers get fair living wage increases.
>>
>> What a fair living wage increase?
>>
> It's a wage increase that allows for the higher cost of living in a
> certain area.
May I see some numbers about the lack of these so-called fair increases. Be
sure to contrast them with the rate of these increases at other occupations.
I am pretty sure that the guys flipping burgers at my local Wendy's don't
get fair living wage increases.
>>> Someone
>>> making $40,000 a year in East Tennessee can live nicely (if they
>>> have
>>> a dual income family); but that's also the salary teachers made near
>>> where I lived in Berkeley, barely enough to give any hope of ever
>>> buying a house.
>>
>> Oh well. The last I check, become a teacher was a voluntary choice,
>> even
>> near where you live in Berkeley, I suspect.
>>
> I don't live in Berkeley any more. But even so, would you suggest that
> no teachers live in expensive areas? I suppose that's one way to make
> the cost of living go down.
I would suggest that no one live where they cannot afford to do so.
Unfortunately, this practice is rather common even for people who make very
good money. Many folks buy homes that they have absolutely business buying.
My parents live in Celebration, FL, where the homes start at $190,000 and
the average home is above $400,000. That place is full of people who have no
business living there. That's an extreme example, but many people take out
larger mortgages than they can afford. That is why one can find many
calculators on the web entitled, "How much home can you afford?"
>> Wow. The person in you sample of one sure is busy. It's lucky for me
>> that
>> the friend who composes my sample of one cancels him out.
>
> Then I feel bad for that person's students. Or is he a gym teacher?
Why do you feel bad for his students? I didn't say a thing about what he
does. I hope you aren't suggesting that gym teachers don't work as hard as
other teachers.
--
Kevin Gowen
"The constant loss of U.S. soldiers in Iraq--after the war is "won"--is
a tragedy. However, if this is what it takes to retire the Bush
administration at the next election, the sacrifice is justified."
- Arie L. Bleicher of Mill Valley, California, expressing leftist
respect for human life
John Yamamoto-Wilson
> Even a percursory look at an economics textbook
"*Pre*cursory"? What dictionary are you using *now*, Kevin?
--
John
http://rarebooksinjapan.com
John W.
homes available for pretty much everyone that wants one. It might be a
cheap, dirty, piece of crap, but it's a home. I don't care one flip
about the economics of it, so go ahead and quote all you want. But to
me it's nothing but common sense that a person working full time in a
professional field should have the ability to purchase a home within
striking distance of their place of employment.
> > Actually, teachers and police officers can get some
> > excellent mortgage rates compared to other professionals, and IIRC
> > they can get up to 50% discount on HUD homes.
>
> That's very nice. I must point out that teachers and police officers are not
> the only occupations in the nation.
>
Really? How odd.
> > Why? You've obviously never worked your ass off, made a decent salary,
> > and still been unable to buy even the cheapest house.
>
> How is this obvious? Because I disagree with your economically inept
> statement? Please define "working one's ass off", "decent salary" and
> "buying a house". You have a rather curious fixation on homeownership as
> some sort of benchmark.
>
I don't need to define anything about work to the son of a good blue
collar family, do I?
> >>
> >> What a fair living wage increase?
> >>
> > It's a wage increase that allows for the higher cost of living in a
> > certain area.
>
> May I see some numbers about the lack of these so-called fair increases. Be
> sure to contrast them with the rate of these increases at other occupations.
> I am pretty sure that the guys flipping burgers at my local Wendy's don't
> get fair living wage increases.
>
Nope, because I actually could care less.
> >>> Someone
> >>> making $40,000 a year in East Tennessee can live nicely (if they
> >>> have
> >>> a dual income family); but that's also the salary teachers made near
> >>> where I lived in Berkeley, barely enough to give any hope of ever
> >>> buying a house.
> >>
> >> Oh well. The last I check, become a teacher was a voluntary choice,
> >> even
> >> near where you live in Berkeley, I suspect.
> >>
> > I don't live in Berkeley any more. But even so, would you suggest that
> > no teachers live in expensive areas? I suppose that's one way to make
> > the cost of living go down.
>
> I would suggest that no one live where they cannot afford to do so.
Please tell me how someone who lives in, say, economically depressed
Oakland move out of that area, when in order to move they have to have
quite a bit of money (I've heard it suggested that you have at least
three months living expenses in the bank before making a major move
like that). BTW, this is one reason I think you're a rich snob,
because you have no understanding whatsoever of poverty.
>
> >> Wow. The person in you sample of one sure is busy. It's lucky for me
> >> that
> >> the friend who composes my sample of one cancels him out.
> >
> > Then I feel bad for that person's students. Or is he a gym teacher?
>
> Why do you feel bad for his students? I didn't say a thing about what he
> does. I hope you aren't suggesting that gym teachers don't work as hard as
> other teachers.
I am in fact suggesting that gym teachers don't work as hard as other
teachers. Not all; I'm certain some are excellent and do a great deal
of planning. But the several gym teachers I've had in my life threw a
ball on the court and sat around reading the newspaper.
John W.
John W.
> Jason Cormier wrote:
> > On 7/11/03 12:40, in article 3f0ee816...@news.cogeco.ca, "Greg
> > Macdonald" <mr_mac_...@SPAMSUCKShotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> I don't know about him, but I do. Stating that only time spent in
> >> front of a student should count as 'work' is as dumb as saying
> >> firefighters are only working when they are actually fighting fires.
> >
> > ...or that a lawyer is only working when he/she is in court.
>
> That's why they tend to have billable hours. You know, that linking of pay
> to productivity that teacher unions make quite sure never comes to be.
>
them, and none of my coworkers did either.
John W.
Kevin Gowen
I did not realize that you and your coworkers were lawyers.
Kevin Gowen
Define "area". Certainly every city has at least one "area" where pretty
much everyone cannot afford to purchase a home, let alone rent. By "homes
available", do you mean simply a place where one may live or a home that may
be purchased?
> It might be a
> cheap, dirty, piece of crap, but it's a home. I don't care one flip
> about the economics of it,
But of course you don't. It's so much easier to create fanciful theories
that work only in Fantasyland.
> so go ahead and quote all you want.
I wasn't aware that I had quoted anything.
> But to
> me it's nothing but common sense
Ah, I love appeals to common sense. It's what peopel talk about when they
have no argument. Be a good boy and define the term for us.
> that a person working full time in a
> professional field should have the ability to purchase a home within
> striking distance of their place of employment.
I hate to disappoint you, but a school teacher is not a person working in a
professional field.
>>> Actually, teachers and police officers can get some
>>> excellent mortgage rates compared to other professionals, and IIRC
>>> they can get up to 50% discount on HUD homes.
>>
>> That's very nice. I must point out that teachers and police officers
>> are not
>> the only occupations in the nation.
>>
> Really? How odd.
Yes, I thought that would surprise you.
>>> Why? You've obviously never worked your ass off, made a decent
>>> salary,
>>> and still been unable to buy even the cheapest house.
>>
>> How is this obvious? Because I disagree with your economically inept
>> statement? Please define "working one's ass off", "decent salary" and
>> "buying a house". You have a rather curious fixation on
>> homeownership as
>> some sort of benchmark.
>>
> I don't need to define anything about work to the son of a good blue
> collar family, do I?
I see that you decline. No surprise. Now, let's have those definitions. I
need to know what you think you are saying before I can smash it to pieces.
>>>> What a fair living wage increase?
>>>>
>>> It's a wage increase that allows for the higher cost of living in a
>>> certain area.
>>
>> May I see some numbers about the lack of these so-called fair
>> increases. Be
>> sure to contrast them with the rate of these increases at other
>> occupations.
>> I am pretty sure that the guys flipping burgers at my local Wendy's
>> don't
>> get fair living wage increases.
>>
> Nope, because I actually could care less.
About what, and why don't you?
>>>>> Someone
>>>>> making $40,000 a year in East Tennessee can live nicely (if they
>>>>> have
>>>>> a dual income family); but that's also the salary teachers made
>>>>> near
>>>>> where I lived in Berkeley, barely enough to give any hope of ever
>>>>> buying a house.
>>>>
>>>> Oh well. The last I check, become a teacher was a voluntary choice,
>>>> even
>>>> near where you live in Berkeley, I suspect.
>>>>
>>> I don't live in Berkeley any more. But even so, would you suggest
>>> that
>>> no teachers live in expensive areas? I suppose that's one way to
>>> make
>>> the cost of living go down.
>>
>> I would suggest that no one live where they cannot afford to do so.
>
> Please tell me how someone who lives in, say, economically depressed
> Oakland move out of that area,
Did I say anything about moving?
> when in order to move they have to have
> quite a bit of money (I've heard it suggested that you have at least
> three months living expenses in the bank before making a major move
> like that).
Did I say anything about moving?
> BTW, this is one reason I think you're a rich snob,
> because you have no understanding whatsoever of poverty.
How does one flow from the other? But yes, my father worked hard to ensure
that I never experienced poverty firsthand. What a pity your boy can't say
the same.
When did this discussion become about poverty, BTW? You don't realize it,
but you are revealing far more about yourself than you are about me.
>>>> Wow. The person in you sample of one sure is busy. It's lucky for
>>>> me
>>>> that
>>>> the friend who composes my sample of one cancels him out.
>>>
>>> Then I feel bad for that person's students. Or is he a gym teacher?
>>
>> Why do you feel bad for his students? I didn't say a thing about
>> what he
>> does. I hope you aren't suggesting that gym teachers don't work as
>> hard as
>> other teachers.
>
> I am in fact suggesting that gym teachers don't work as hard as other
> teachers. Not all; I'm certain some are excellent and do a great deal
> of planning. But the several gym teachers I've had in my life threw a
> ball on the court and sat around reading the newspaper.
"Real" teachers, on the other hand, are all real hard workers. That must be
why they have unions.
Brett Robson
>
>Union officials note lots of silly things, like the very silly note they
>make above. I wonder if they noted that teachers are not the only profession
>in the world that brings their work home. Teachers, like many other workers,
>are not paid based on performance. I don't know if you have ever been a
>salaried worker, but they generally get paid the same regardless of how much
>they work. I presume that you have at least worked hourly jobs before, so
>you must know that one generally gets paid the same per hour whether one
>flips 40 burgers in that hour or 80.
>
You seem to know a lot about a broad range of occupations. What experience do
you have in the workforce?
---
"he [John Ashcroft] deliberately left Jesus out of office prayers to avoid
offending non-Christians." - Ben Shapiro 27/2/2003
Brett Robson
>
>
>I did not know that a sample of one could be the average.
>
Based on your lack of knowledge of most things "I did not know ..." is not a
particularly good way to make a point.
John W.
> John W. wrote:
> > "Kevin Gowen" <kgowen...@myfastmail.com> wrote in message
> > news:<ben9js$711lm$1...@ID-105084.news.uni-berlin.de>...
> >> Jason Cormier wrote:
> >>> On 7/11/03 12:40, in article 3f0ee816...@news.cogeco.ca, "Greg
> >>> Macdonald" <mr_mac_...@SPAMSUCKShotmail.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> I don't know about him, but I do. Stating that only time spent in
> >>>> front of a student should count as 'work' is as dumb as saying
> >>>> firefighters are only working when they are actually fighting
> >>>> fires.
> >>>
> >>> ...or that a lawyer is only working when he/she is in court.
> >>
> >> That's why they tend to have billable hours. You know, that linking
> >> of pay
> >> to productivity that teacher unions make quite sure never comes to
> >> be.
> >>
> > How many people do you know that have billable hours? I've never had
> > them, and none of my coworkers did either.
>
> I did not realize that you and your coworkers were lawyers.
Ah. I figured that since you indicated teachers should have billable
hours you might have mistakenly thought everyone does/should.
John W.
George
> Jason Cormier wrote:
> > On 7/10/03 20:52, in article
> > bel1pq$6erpl$1...@ID-105084.news.uni-berlin.de, "Kevin Gowen"
> > <kgowen...@myfastmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> I hasten to add that grading papers can be done during work hours.
> >
> > A teacher's job is not only teaching classes and grading papers.
> > There are other things that must also be done during work hours, or
> > outside of them.
Sorry to lump multiple thoughts in one post. I am an engineer and I have
family members who are teachers.
As far as work hours there is no comparison. If you work as an engineer 10
hour minimun days are common and it is not unusual to work on Saturdays. And
it is very usual to take work home. Most teachers do grading etc during
study periods. In my state if a teacher is involved with an outside school
activity they get a minimum of $100 for the first 3 hours for their time.
Teaching can not be beat for a job guarantee. It is almost impossible to
fire a teacher and certainly not because of bad performance. In the private
sector it is not unusual to be out of a job because of commercial
considerations.
If you are a teacher and decide things are too stressful you can take a one
year sabbatical at 1/2 pay. I am not aware of another job where that is
possible.
My family members readily admit they have a great job in private but cannot
say so in public because union members must stand up for the cause. In my
opinion someone who is a union member is not a professional.
My brother-in-law just retired at age 55. His pension will be the same as
his full salary and he will also keep the ultra deluxe health insurance plan
at no cost to him.
Teachers do not have a bad deal...
Kevin Gowen
> "Kevin Gowen" <kgowen...@myfastmail.com> wrote in message
> news:<beqbpj$7u1i9$1...@ID-105084.news.uni-berlin.de>...
>> John W. wrote:
>>> "Kevin Gowen" <kgowen...@myfastmail.com> wrote in message
>>> news:<ben9js$711lm$1...@ID-105084.news.uni-berlin.de>...
>>>> Jason Cormier wrote:
>>>>> On 7/11/03 12:40, in article 3f0ee816...@news.cogeco.ca,
>>>>> "Greg
>>>>> Macdonald" <mr_mac_...@SPAMSUCKShotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't know about him, but I do. Stating that only time spent in
>>>>>> front of a student should count as 'work' is as dumb as saying
>>>>>> firefighters are only working when they are actually fighting
>>>>>> fires.
>>>>>
>>>>> ...or that a lawyer is only working when he/she is in court.
>>>>
>>>> That's why they tend to have billable hours. You know, that linking
>>>> of pay
>>>> to productivity that teacher unions make quite sure never comes to
>>>> be.
>>>>
>>> How many people do you know that have billable hours? I've never had
>>> them, and none of my coworkers did either.
>>
>> I did not realize that you and your coworkers were lawyers.
>
> Ah. I figured that since you indicated teachers should have billable
> hours
I indicated nothing of the kind.
> you might have mistakenly thought everyone does/should.
You mistakenly read, which no doubt the fault of a government school
teacher.
Curt Fischer
George wrote:
>
> "Kevin Gowen" <kgowen...@myfastmail.com> wrote in message
> news:ben9fc$79he3$1...@ID-105084.news.uni-berlin.de...
> > Jason Cormier wrote:
> > > On 7/10/03 20:52, in article
> > > bel1pq$6erpl$1...@ID-105084.news.uni-berlin.de, "Kevin Gowen"
> > > <kgowen...@myfastmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > >> I hasten to add that grading papers can be done during work hours.
> > >
> > > A teacher's job is not only teaching classes and grading papers.
> > > There are other things that must also be done during work hours, or
> > > outside of them.
>
> Sorry to lump multiple thoughts in one post. I am an engineer and I have
> family members who are teachers.
>
> As far as work hours there is no comparison. If you work as an engineer 10
> hour minimun days are common and it is not unusual to work on Saturdays.
That's funny. When I worked at as a microelectronics process engineer,
ten hour minimum days were uncommon and it was unusual to work on
Saturdays.
> And
> it is very usual to take work home.
Where I worked it was against company policy to take most kinds of work
home.
>Most teachers do grading etc during
> study periods. In my state if a teacher is involved with an outside school
> activity they get a minimum of $100 for the first 3 hours for their time.
For their first 3 hrs in a week? Great. Try finding a teacher who
spends only 3 hr/week on extracurriculars.
> Teaching can not be beat for a job guarantee. It is almost impossible to
> fire a teacher and certainly not because of bad performance. In the private
> sector it is not unusual to be out of a job because of commercial
> considerations.
This part I agree more with. When I was in high school we had one
teacher who wound up in a torid affair with a very beautiful, and very
17, student of his. She was named Kreis. Shortly after it became
common to walk past this guy in the hallway and say "Hey, Mr. X, do you
need an iron? 'Cause you got a Kreis in your pants...", he got fired.
Later in the local papers it became apparent that the police and the
school had known about his affair for some months. But it was not until
it became common knowledge among the student body that they had to fire
him.
> If you are a teacher and decide things are too stressful you can take a one
> year sabbatical at 1/2 pay. I am not aware of another job where that is
> possible.
>
> My family members readily admit they have a great job in private but cannot
> say so in public because union members must stand up for the cause. In my
> opinion someone who is a union member is not a professional.
> My brother-in-law just retired at age 55. His pension will be the same as
> his full salary and he will also keep the ultra deluxe health insurance plan
> at no cost to him.
>
> Teachers do not have a bad deal...
True, but your black-and-white comparison to engineers was pretty
flawed. Try not to use so many absolutes.
--
Curt Fischer
Kevin Gowen
> George wrote:
>>
>> "Kevin Gowen" <kgowen...@myfastmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:ben9fc$79he3$1...@ID-105084.news.uni-berlin.de...
>>> Jason Cormier wrote:
>>>> On 7/10/03 20:52, in article
>>>> bel1pq$6erpl$1...@ID-105084.news.uni-berlin.de, "Kevin Gowen"
>>>> <kgowen...@myfastmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I hasten to add that grading papers can be done during work hours.
>>>>
>>>> A teacher's job is not only teaching classes and grading papers.
>>>> There are other things that must also be done during work hours, or
>>>> outside of them.
>>
>> Sorry to lump multiple thoughts in one post. I am an engineer and I
>> have family members who are teachers.
>>
>> As far as work hours there is no comparison. If you work as an
>> engineer 10 hour minimun days are common and it is not unusual to
>> work on Saturdays.
>
> That's funny. When I worked at as a microelectronics process
> engineer,
> ten hour minimum days were uncommon and it was unusual to work on
> Saturdays.
Maybe you are a more efficient engineer than George and his coworkers were.
Of course, an efficient economy isn't very popular.
>> And
>> it is very usual to take work home.
>
> Where I worked it was against company policy to take most kinds of
> work
> home.
Did you work for a defense contractor such as Lockheed Martin?
>> Teaching can not be beat for a job guarantee. It is almost
>> impossible to fire a teacher and certainly not because of bad
>> performance. In the private sector it is not unusual to be out of a
>> job because of commercial considerations.
>
> This part I agree more with. When I was in high school we had one
> teacher who wound up in a torid affair with a very beautiful, and very
> 17, student of his. She was named Kreis. Shortly after it became
> common to walk past this guy in the hallway and say "Hey, Mr. X, do
> you
> need an iron? 'Cause you got a Kreis in your pants...", he got fired.
>
> Later in the local papers it became apparent that the police and the
> school had known about his affair for some months. But it was not
> until
> it became common knowledge among the student body that they had to
> fire
> him.
Ooh! Perfect example of the purpose of unions.
P.S. Do you have a jpeg of Kreis? How torrid was the affair? Tell us some of
the stories!
Brett Robson
>
>
>You mistakenly read, which no doubt the fault of a government school
>teacher.
What's George W Bush's reason for being illiterate?
"If you can't read this blame a teacher"
Brett Robson
>
>Maybe you are a more efficient engineer than George and his coworkers were.
Good one Kevin, the only difference between the two is their personal
efficiency.
>Of course, an efficient economy isn't very popular.
You wouldn't know an efficient economy if it bit you on the arse. Looking
forward to Ann Coulter's book on economics?
Curt Fischer
Nope. The very, very private sector IBM Corp. I would say that aside
from HR related documents, at least 50%, probably more like 80%, of the
papers I saw all had "IBM Confidential" written on them and were not to
removed from the premesis.
> >> Teaching can not be beat for a job guarantee. It is almost
> >> impossible to fire a teacher and certainly not because of bad
> >> performance. In the private sector it is not unusual to be out of a
> >> job because of commercial considerations.
> >
> > This part I agree more with. When I was in high school we had one
> > teacher who wound up in a torid affair with a very beautiful, and very
> > 17, student of his. She was named Kreis. Shortly after it became
> > common to walk past this guy in the hallway and say "Hey, Mr. X, do
> > you
> > need an iron? 'Cause you got a Kreis in your pants...", he got fired.
> >
> > Later in the local papers it became apparent that the police and the
> > school had known about his affair for some months. But it was not
> > until
> > it became common knowledge among the student body that they had to
> > fire
> > him.
>
> Ooh! Perfect example of the purpose of unions.
>
> P.S. Do you have a jpeg of Kreis? How torrid was the affair? Tell us some of
> the stories!
My only photos are in my high school yearbook which is, alas, thousands
of km away. The affair was originally discovered when the girl fell
into depression and her parents read her diary. Turned out she had
anticipated the teacher ditching his wife (the school nurse!) and being
with her forever, which wasn't happening. I don't know many of the
details, but I seem to recall that some of the rendezvouses were on
school grounds. I think the tennis bleachers.
--
Curt Fischer
Curt Fischer
Curt Fischer wrote:
> My only photos are in my high school yearbook which is, alas, thousands
> of km away. The affair was originally discovered when the girl fell
> into depression and her parents read her diary. Turned out she had
> anticipated the teacher ditching his wife (the school nurse!) and being
> with her forever, which wasn't happening. I don't know many of the
> details, but I seem to recall that some of the rendezvouses were on
> school grounds. I think the tennis bleachers.
Oh yeah, and the most stunning example of an utter lack of pride that I
have ever seen is that the nurse did not leave the guy. Everyone in the
school knew. She worked at the school. She lived in the town. Her
(last) name was in the papers. Her husband was a potential felon.
She stuck by her man. It's so sweet it almost kills you.
--
Curt Fischer
Kevin Gowen
> Kevin Gowen wrote:
>>
>> Curt Fischer wrote:
>>> Where I worked it was against company policy to take most kinds of
>>> work
>>> home.
>>
>> Did you work for a defense contractor such as Lockheed Martin?
>
> Nope. The very, very private sector IBM Corp. I would say that aside
> from HR related documents, at least 50%, probably more like 80%, of
> the papers I saw all had "IBM Confidential" written on them and were
> not to removed from the premesis.
I see. When I worked at Lockheed Martin, I once spent a day doing 2nd level
support at the Electronics and Missiles plant (I worked at LM Enterprise
Information Systems across town). There were many mini-offices of several
person "teams" and each mini-office was separated from the common area by a
door locked by combination. To get inside to work on their PCs, I had to
call in from a telephone mounted next to the door.
Then there was Building N aka The Black Hole. It was like Willy Wonka's
factor. It seemed that nobody ever came in and nobody ever came out. No one
even knew what sort of stuff went on in there. I once had the opportunity to
talk with someone who worked in Building N over the phone. When I asked, he
just said they worked on "a lot of fun stuff" I wonder if that means they
were in there making margaritas with the document shredder like in "The
Falcon and The Snowman"
>>>> Teaching can not be beat for a job guarantee. It is almost
>>>> impossible to fire a teacher and certainly not because of bad
>>>> performance. In the private sector it is not unusual to be out of a
>>>> job because of commercial considerations.
>>>
>>> This part I agree more with. When I was in high school we had one
>>> teacher who wound up in a torid affair with a very beautiful, and
>>> very 17, student of his. She was named Kreis. Shortly after it
>>> became
>>> common to walk past this guy in the hallway and say "Hey, Mr. X, do
>>> you
>>> need an iron? 'Cause you got a Kreis in your pants...", he got
>>> fired.
>>>
>>> Later in the local papers it became apparent that the police and the
>>> school had known about his affair for some months. But it was not
>>> until
>>> it became common knowledge among the student body that they had to
>>> fire
>>> him.
>>
>> Ooh! Perfect example of the purpose of unions.
>>
>> P.S. Do you have a jpeg of Kreis? How torrid was the affair? Tell us
>> some of the stories!
>
> My only photos are in my high school yearbook which is, alas,
> thousands
> of km away.
Call home and have them mail it to you. Or, do they know how to use a
scanner?
> The affair was originally discovered when the girl fell
> into depression and her parents read her diary. Turned out she had
> anticipated the teacher ditching his wife (the school nurse!) and
> being
> with her forever, which wasn't happening. I don't know many of the
> details, but I seem to recall that some of the rendezvouses were on
> school grounds. I think the tennis bleachers.
Ooh! Scandalous!
--
Kevin Gowen
"Their idea of equal rights is the American flag and Confederate swastika
flying side by side."
- Julian Bond, chairman of the nonpartisan NAACP, on the GOP
Kevin Gowen
Hillary must have been her inspiration.
John W.
because my poor public school education has obviously let me down:
"That's why [lawyers] tend to have billable hours. You know, that
linking of pay to productivity that teacher unions make quite sure
never comes to be."
John W.
Brett Robson
>
>Curt Fischer wrote:
>> Curt Fischer wrote:
>>
>>> My only photos are in my high school yearbook which is, alas,
>>> thousands of km away. The affair was originally discovered when the
>>> girl fell into depression and her parents read her diary. Turned
>>> out she had anticipated the teacher ditching his wife (the school
>>> nurse!) and being with her forever, which wasn't happening. I don't
>>> know many of the details, but I seem to recall that some of the
>>> rendezvouses were on school grounds. I think the tennis bleachers.
>>
>> Oh yeah, and the most stunning example of an utter lack of pride that
>> I have ever seen is that the nurse did not leave the guy. Everyone
>> in the school knew. She worked at the school. She lived in the
>> town. Her (last) name was in the papers. Her husband was a
>> potential felon.
>>
>> She stuck by her man. It's so sweet it almost kills you.
>
>Hillary must have been her inspiration.
>
I need a new Ben Sharpio quote, can you suggest a really good one please?
Reading his stuff make you dumber so I'm not prepared to risk reading him. Maybe
somewhere where he quotes Leviticus.
Kevin Gowen
I thought that the meaning would be obvious even to someone who received
their primary and secondary education in a government school. However, it
seems that I must repeat myself:
Lawyers tend to have billable hours. Teachers unions are consistently
against the linking of pay to productivity. I never indicated what form this
linking should take.
Richard Thieme
> Curt Fischer wrote:
> > Curt Fischer wrote:
> >
(snip)
> > She stuck by her man. It's so sweet it almost kills you.
>
> Hillary must have been her inspiration.
I have frequently thought that the radical right hates Hillary for the same
reason that the radical left hates Phyllis Schlafly.
For all of Hillary's left wing liberalism she is more of a traditional
housewife and mother than any of them could be (sticking with her husband
and making something out of the bum. Even going to work when it was
necessary for the family).
While Phyllis Schlafly is smarter, more articulate and a more successful
career woman than anyone at NOW ever could be.
Regards,
Richard Thieme
Kevin Gowen
> Kevin Gowen <kgowen...@myfastmail.com> wrote in message
> news:bevmmh$9evf7$1...@ID-105084.news.uni-berlin.de...
>> Curt Fischer wrote:
>>> Curt Fischer wrote:
>>>
>
> (snip)
>
>>> She stuck by her man. It's so sweet it almost kills you.
>>
>> Hillary must have been her inspiration.
>
> I have frequently thought that the radical right hates Hillary for
> the same reason that the radical left hates Phyllis Schlafly.
Since the radical left and radical right are both composed of more than one
person, I suppose they each have more than one reason. I am pretty sure both
Clinton and Schlafly are hated by those outside the radical right and left,
respectively.
> For all of Hillary's left wing liberalism she is more of a traditional
> housewife and mother than any of them could be (sticking with her
> husband and making something out of the bum. Even going to work when
> it was necessary for the family).
I'm not sure how much of a housewife she could have been, having lived 12
years in the Arkansas governor's mansion and 8 years in the White House. I'm
pretty sure those mansions have staff to take care of the housewife-y stuff
like dusting and preparing meals. I am afraid that I am unaware that she
ever had to work for the family out of necessity. My view of their marriage
is that it is very much a political alliance, not that there's anything
wrong with that. They're both very shrewd people.
I have no opinion about what class of mother she may or may not be.
> While Phyllis Schlafly is smarter, more articulate and a more
> successful career woman than anyone at NOW ever could be.
Yes, she is quite brilliant. She is simply on the wrong side as far as NOW
et al. are concerned. Even if Clarence Thomas did everything that Anita Hill
claimed, that behavior was a kiss on the cheek compared to that of Bill
Clinton and Bob Packwood, both of whom got a free pass from NOW.
If Condi Rice were ever to become a viable presidential candidate, NOW and
the NAACP wouldn't know whether to shit or go blind.
Richard Thieme
> Richard Thieme wrote:
> > Kevin Gowen <kgowen...@myfastmail.com> wrote in message
> > news:bevmmh$9evf7$1...@ID-105084.news.uni-berlin.de...
> >> Curt Fischer wrote:
> >>> Curt Fischer wrote:
> >>>
> >
> > (snip)
> >
> >>> She stuck by her man. It's so sweet it almost kills you.
> >>
> >> Hillary must have been her inspiration.
> >
> > I have frequently thought that the radical right hates Hillary for
> > the same reason that the radical left hates Phyllis Schlafly.
>
(snip)
> > For all of Hillary's left wing liberalism she is more of a traditional
> > housewife and mother than any of them could be (sticking with her
> > husband and making something out of the bum. Even going to work when
> > it was necessary for the family).
>
> I'm not sure how much of a housewife she could have been, having lived 12
> years in the Arkansas governor's mansion and 8 years in the White House.
Pretty large houses.
> I'm
> pretty sure those mansions have staff to take care of the housewife-y
stuff
> like dusting and preparing meals.
And I thought you came from a rich family. You have no idea how much time it
takes to be a matriarch managing a whole mansion of servants. Banquet
preparations, making sure the decorations are just so, keeping an eye out
for breakage and theft, making sure your husband doesn't get caught out (or
at least so much that it wrecks his career). . .
> I am afraid that I am unaware that she
> ever had to work for the family out of necessity.
Depends on if you think making your husband governor and president is a
necessity. He couldn't have done it without her, or the money she made.
(snip)
Regards,
Richard Thieme
Brett Robson
>
>Richard Thieme wrote:
>> Kevin Gowen <kgowen...@myfastmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:bevmmh$9evf7$1...@ID-105084.news.uni-berlin.de...
>>> Curt Fischer wrote:
>>>> Curt Fischer wrote:
>>>>
>>
>> (snip)
>>
>>>> She stuck by her man. It's so sweet it almost kills you.
>>>
>>> Hillary must have been her inspiration.
>>
>> I have frequently thought that the radical right hates Hillary for
>> the same reason that the radical left hates Phyllis Schlafly.
>
>Since the radical left and radical right are both composed of more than one
>person,
This point seems to be lost on you and your favourite authors Ben Sharpio and
Anne Coulter,
"- Arie L. Bleicher of Mill Valley, California, expressing leftist
respect for human life"
>
>I have no opinion about what class of mother she may or may not be.
You have already expressed your opinion that mothers belong at home looking
after their children.
Kevin Gowen
You thought wrong. I've never lived in a house larger than 4200 square feet.
> You have no idea how much
> time it takes to be a matriarch managing a whole mansion of servants.
I don't guess I do. I had no idea that a function of a First Lady was to
perform butler's duties.
> Banquet preparations, making sure the decorations are just so,
> keeping an eye out for breakage and theft, making sure your husband
> doesn't get caught out (or at least so much that it wrecks his
> career). . .
>
>> I am afraid that I am unaware that she
>> ever had to work for the family out of necessity.
>
> Depends on if you think making your husband governor and president is
> a necessity.
I don't.
> He couldn't have done it without her, or the money she
> made.
Now I see your point. Goes to my "marriage as political alliance" view.
George
"Curt Fischer" <cr...@po.cwru.edu> wrote in message
news:3F133AE3...@po.cwru.edu...
>
>
> George wrote:
> >
> > "Kevin Gowen" <kgowen...@myfastmail.com> wrote in message
> > news:ben9fc$79he3$1...@ID-105084.news.uni-berlin.de...
> > > Jason Cormier wrote:
> > > > On 7/10/03 20:52, in article
> > > > bel1pq$6erpl$1...@ID-105084.news.uni-berlin.de, "Kevin Gowen"
> > > > <kgowen...@myfastmail.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > >> I hasten to add that grading papers can be done during work hours.
> > > >
> > > > A teacher's job is not only teaching classes and grading papers.
> > > > There are other things that must also be done during work hours, or
> > > > outside of them.
> >
> > Sorry to lump multiple thoughts in one post. I am an engineer and I have
> > family members who are teachers.
> >
> > As far as work hours there is no comparison. If you work as an engineer
10
> > hour minimun days are common and it is not unusual to work on Saturdays.
>
> That's funny. When I worked at as a microelectronics process engineer,
> ten hour minimum days were uncommon and it was unusual to work on
> Saturdays.
It is pretty much the norm to run with a "lean" staff. Lay off a third of
the workforce and have the remaining staff also do that work. There are no
such demands on teachers.
> > And
> > it is very usual to take work home.
>
> Where I worked it was against company policy to take most kinds of work
> home.
Understand, I have worked in situations with secrecy requirements but I
think most positions are not locked down in that fashion.
>
> >Most teachers do grading etc during
> > study periods. In my state if a teacher is involved with an outside
school
> > activity they get a minimum of $100 for the first 3 hours for their
time.
>
> For their first 3 hrs in a week? Great. Try finding a teacher who
> spends only 3 hr/week on extracurriculars.
Sorry, I omitted units. They get $100 for the first 3 hours of an event. If
an event is longer than 3 hours (bus trip etc) there is additional
compensation. If they were at 4 lets say 2 hour events in a week they would
get $400 additional pay.
John W.
Obviously your arrogance is blinding you again, this time to your own
sentence. Perhaps you should review some basic English. Or do you need
to be walked through why you're wrong?
John W.
Kevin Gowen
By all means, enlighten me with all of the knowledge of the English language
that government schools have bestowed upon you, user of the word "hisself".
I don't imagine I'll need to pack a sandwich.
John W.
>
> You thought wrong. I've never lived in a house larger than 4200 square feet.
>
home. Hope you seriously don't considered your upbringing in any way
humble....
John W.
John W.
> On Thu, 10 Jul 2003 20:52:55 -0400, "Kevin ...
> >
> >Union officials note lots of silly things, like the very silly note they
> >make above. I wonder if they noted that teachers are not the only profession
> >in the world that brings their work home. Teachers, like many other workers,
> >are not paid based on performance. I don't know if you have ever been a
> >salaried worker, but they generally get paid the same regardless of how much
> >they work. I presume that you have at least worked hourly jobs before, so
> >you must know that one generally gets paid the same per hour whether one
> >flips 40 burgers in that hour or 80.
> >
>
> You seem to know a lot about a broad range of occupations. What experience do
> you have in the workforce?
>
John W.
Kevin Gowen
I just knew that you would bite that hook.
--
Kevin Gowen
"I would not use the three-letter word. I would use the five-letter
word: deceit."
- Florida senator and Democratic presidential hopeful, Bob Graham,
speaking out on the 2003 State of the Union address while illustrating
Florida's need for another recount (Take your time, Goober)
Brett Robson
>
>"I would not use the three-letter word. I would use the five-letter
>word: deceit."
>- Florida senator and Democratic presidential hopeful, Bob Graham,
>speaking out on the 2003 State of the Union
Sounds like he is well qualified for the job.
Brett Robson
John W.
> John W. wrote:
> > "Kevin Gowen" <kgowen...@myfastmail.com> wrote in message
> > news:<bf0735$9kktt$1...@ID-105084.news.uni-berlin.de>...
> >>
> >> You thought wrong. I've never lived in a house larger than 4200
> >> square feet.
> >>
> > Yes, you must have really suffered being crammed into such a tiny
> > home. Hope you seriously don't considered your upbringing in any way
> > humble....
>
> I just knew that you would bite that hook.
What can I say, I'm predictable.
John W.
Michael Cash
the alphabet and kept on going with:
>On Mon, 14 Jul 2003 17:54:24 -0400, "Kevin ...
>>
>>
>>You mistakenly read, which no doubt the fault of a government school
>>teacher.
>
>What's George W Bush's reason for being illiterate?
He may be illiterate, but with the vast resources of the Sepponian
Federal Government I bet he has a spellchecker.
--
Michael Cash
"There was a time, Mr. Cash, when I believed you must be the most useless
thing in the world. But that was before I read a Microsoft help file."
Prof. Ernest T. Bass
Mount Pilot College
Declan Murphy
> On 14 Jul 2003 17:34:11 -0700, Brett Robson <jet...@deja.com> belched
> the alphabet and kept on going with:
>
>>On Mon, 14 Jul 2003 17:54:24 -0400, "Kevin ...
>>
>>>You mistakenly read, which no doubt the fault of a government school
>>>teacher.
>>
>>What's George W Bush's reason for being illiterate?
>
> He may be illiterate, but with the vast resources of the Sepponian
> Federal Government I bet he has a spellchecker.
Assuming he can type of course. Shirley he has a stenographer?
And does that mean that spellcheckers weren't around when Quayle was
Sepponian VP? I don't usually use one, but for some reason I thought
they had been around longer.
--
The ballerina stood on point, her toes curled like shrimp, not
deep-fried shrimp because, as brittle as they are, they would have
cracked under the pressure, but tender ebi-kind-of-shrimp, pink and
luscious as a Tokyo sunset, wondering if her lover was in the Ginza,
wooing the geisha with eyes reminiscent of roe, which she liked better
than ebi anyway - Brian Tacang
Brett Robson
>
>On 14 Jul 2003 17:34:11 -0700, Brett Robson <jet...@deja.com> belched
>the alphabet and kept on going with:
>
>>On Mon, 14 Jul 2003 17:54:24 -0400, "Kevin ...
>>>
>>>
>>>You mistakenly read, which no doubt the fault of a government school
>>>teacher.
>>
>>What's George W Bush's reason for being illiterate?
>
>He may be illiterate, but with the vast resources of the Sepponian
>Federal Government I bet he has a spellchecker.
Is she cute?
obakesan
In article <bf7ps...@drn.newsguy.com>, Brett Robson <jet...@deja.com>
wrote:
>On Thu, 17 Jul 2003 19:02:43 +0900, Michael ...
>>
>>On 14 Jul 2003 17:34:11 -0700, Brett Robson <jet...@deja.com> belched
>>the alphabet and kept on going with:
>>
>>>On Mon, 14 Jul 2003 17:54:24 -0400, "Kevin ...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>You mistakenly read, which no doubt the fault of a government school
>>>>teacher.
>>>
>>>What's George W Bush's reason for being illiterate?
>>
>>He may be illiterate, but with the vast resources of the Sepponian
>>Federal Government I bet he has a spellchecker.
>
>
>Is she cute?
well with the field available to him Clinton chose Monica ... not sure if it
matters for Sepponian presidents
See Ya
(when bandwidth gets better ;-)
Chris Eastwood
we tend to blame others for our problems
I think this is something we inherit from our parents
please remove undies for reply