Delurking and some thoughts..
J.C. Bengtson
I've been lurking here for a while now, and my recent viewing (and
subsequent re-viewings) of the Evangelion movies have prompted me to
actually post something. For reference, I've seen the whole series in
both Japanese and English at least thrice, and while I can't claim to
have seen it when it was new, I did make sure to make the trips to
Suncoast to purchase each DVD upon it's domestic release within a day or
two (movies included).
Anyways, the movies have naturally caused my interest in the series to
peak, and I've been doing a lot of reading on various groups, forums and
sites, garnering what information I can. As expected with something like
Eva, however, there's still many questions that remain unanswered, and
perhaps I could bring up one particular one while I'm at it..
-- If the Eva's possess souls, whose are in each one?
Well, we know that Shinji and Asuka's mothers are in EVA-01 and EVA-02
respectively, and it's almost certain that Naoko Akagi is in EVA-00
(besides the chalk outline and blood, we never see the aftermath of her
death).. but what about the others? EVA-04 never had any screentime as
far as I know, seeing as how it blew up on activation and all, and
EVA-03 was possessed by an Angel.. heck, we never even saw Toji in the
entry plug while it was active, so I can't even say for certain who
would be in there.
We know from one of the earliest episodes (3 & 4) that Kensuke doesn't
have a mother.. and from the way Toji speaks similarly, he probably
doesn't either. And it's later learned that all the children in class
2-A are candidates for Eva piloting.. was Toji's mother in EVA-03 then?
If so, since when did he ever have a connection to NERV / SEELE prior to
being "chosen"?
The fact that EVA-03 and EVA-04 were being built in the United States
instead of Japan complicates things even further..
THEN AGAIN, we never see or hear any mention of EVA-03 using or
generating an AT Field at all, and if it lacked a soul, that'd certainly
make it easy to possess since there wouldn't be any opposing force. That
coincidentally happens to be the reason that Tabris.. err, Kaworu was
able to control EVA-02 when Asuka went comatose.. there was no willpower
to resist him.
But then on the other hand, what the heck good would an Evangelion be if
it didn't have it's most powerful offensive and defensive weapon, the AT
Field? They built the thing just so it could go berserk? That seems
unlikely..
Is ignorance bliss, or does anyone else have thoughts on this? I won't
even get started on ideas for the Mass Production Units.. ;P
Whew, that was a long way to delurk, huh?
--
J.C. Bengtson - "Makoru"
* http://home.ptd.net/~golbez
* http://sailorscout.redversusblue.com
Michael Wignall
news:3DAD8850...@ptd.net...
> -- If the Eva's possess souls, whose are in each one?
>
> Well, we know that Shinji and Asuka's mothers are in EVA-01
> and EVA-02 respectively, and it's almost certain that Naoko
> Akagi is in EVA-00 (besides the chalk outline and blood, we
> never see the aftermath of her death).. but what about the others?
There is absolutely _nothing_ that connects Naoko to Eva-00, that
theory is one of the most unsupported pieces of rubbish out there
in my opinion.
--
Michael Wignall
"Tomorrow's just an excuse away..."
Ramandu
>We know from one of the earliest episodes (3 & 4) that Kensuke doesn't
>have a mother.. and from the way Toji speaks similarly, he probably
>doesn't either. And it's later learned that all the children in class
>2-A are candidates for Eva piloting.. was Toji's mother in EVA-03 then?
>If so, since when did he ever have a connection to NERV / SEELE prior to
>being "chosen"?
I had always assumed that Toji's mother was in Eva 03. AFAIK we're never given
any background on her, so I say just assume that she had some unspecified
connection to NERV. We don't know who Unit 04's pilot was or was going to be,
so there's no way to tell whose soul was in that one.
>But then on the other hand, what the heck good would an Evangelion be if
>it didn't have it's most powerful offensive and defensive weapon, the AT
>Field? They built the thing just so it could go berserk? That seems
>unlikely..
Someone's soul has to be in it. If NERV ran an activation test with a live
entry plug, there had to be some soul there for the entry plug to synch with.
>Is ignorance bliss,
Yes.
> or does anyone else have thoughts on this? I won't
>even get started on ideas for the Mass Production Units.. ;P
I will! We know that the entry plugs had Kaoru-based dummy plugs. Kaoru, being
an Angel, can synch with an Eva no matter whose soul is in it. (Whether he can
do so at will, or the Eva's soul needs to be submissive for some reason, I
don't know.) We know that the MP Evas do have AT Fields: this is explicitly
stated when their AT Fields start to resonate as the Evas start to merge with
Lilith and we get that '70s disco symbol. So there must be souls in there. No
souls, no AT fields. My best guess is that they're nine chumps (more likely
chumpettes) from NERV's other branches.
One other thing about the MP Evas that bugs me: after they resonate with Lilith
and all the little Rei-heads pop out, are they still being controlled by their
dummy plugs, or are they dominated by the will of Lilith?
--R.--
J.C. Bengtson
Aieee.. no reason to get offensive, sheesh. The reasoning for that
statement is because of things said in the Eva Otaku FAQ (forgot the
URL, but it's the one with the translation of the 'Red Cross Book'), and
also because of EVA-00's reactions everytime it's gone berserk. Who did
it try and attack each time?
Gendo -- Naoko would obviously be extraordinarily pissed to find out
that she's not only NOT dead, but in the body of an Eva itself!
Ritsuko -- Well, wouldn't you be a little ticked at your daughter for
not only sleeping with your former lover, but also who was likely
responsible for the "transplant" into an essentially immortal form?
Well, Unit Zero blew itself up near the end of the series but that's
another story..
Rei -- Her hatred of Rei should be obvious, given the fact she strangled
to death the first one, who was only a child!
Shinji is the one anomaly, but since he WAS the product of Yui and
Gendo's union.. it would enrage her to be "controlled" by him. It's
interesting to note that the time it goes berserk when Shinji is in the
entry plug, the Eva opts to smash it's head against the wall instead of
attacking the window..
Granted, the first three were always the ones standing near the
observation window, but Ritsuko did muse to herself that EVA-00 was
"after her" in one case, which demonstrates a knowledge of who's
actually in there.
Michael Wignall
> Michael Wignall wrote:
> > "J.C. Bengtson" <gol...@ptd.net> wrote in message
> > news:3DAD8850...@ptd.net...
> > theory is one of the most unsupported pieces of rubbish out there
> > in my opinion.
>
> Aieee.. no reason to get offensive, sheesh. The reasoning for that
> statement is because of things said in the Eva Otaku FAQ (forgot
> the URL, but it's the one with the translation of the 'Red Cross Book'),
> and also because of EVA-00's reactions everytime it's gone berserk.
www.evaotaku.com and it never says anywhere on that site that
Naoko is in Eva-00. The reason I may sound offensive is because,
as I will show in the rest of this post, the Naoko theory really is
totally unsupported.
> Who did it try and attack each time?
This is really rather irrelevant when you look at how the Evas
actually work. I'll talk about that next.
> Granted, the first three were always the ones standing near
> the observation window, but Ritsuko did muse to herself that
> EVA-00 was "after her" in one case, which demonstrates a
> knowledge of who's actually in there.
Ritsuko states that Eva-00 is after her, "machigai naku" meaning
"without a doubt". Ritsuko says this after hearing Misato suggest
that Eva-00 was attacking Rei. She discounts that possibility and
says it was defiantly after her. Ritsuko is probably the most
knowledgeable person alive at that point when it comes to the
Evas. She had an idea about the first incident, and during the
second she says it was after her without a doubt.
Ritsuko is the target. More on this later.
I want to now discuss the way the Evas operate. They work
via the A-10 nerve, which is described in the D&R Theatrical
Program as being associated with the bond between parent
and child.
_All_ the potential pilots in Shinji's class have "lost" their mothers.
Shinji's mother is in Eva-01. We know that for a fact.
Asuka's mother is in Eva-02. We know that for a fact.
It is established that the A-10 nerve is vital for the Eva's connection
with the pilot (various sources including a quote from Sadamoto
saying that directly).
The A-10 nerve link is involves the connection between mother and
child.
I shall now post a couple of passages from episode 14:
-----------------
The first mutual compatibility test.
Examinee: Ayanami Rei
Ritsuko:The synchro-ratio is almost the same as that with Unit Zero.
Maya: A similar personal pattern is shared between Unit Zero and Unit One.
Ritsuko: That is why synchronization is possible.
-----------------
Here they state that the reason Rei can pilot Eva-01 is that Eva-01
and Eva-00 share a similar personal pattern. It is the Eva's that are
similar. Remember it has already been established that Yui is in Eva-01.
The Evas work on the A-10 nerve link, that works with mother and child.
How can Rei pilot Eva-01? Well because Rei is effectively Yui's child.
She is a clone of Yui, out of everyone we see in Eva she is the closest
to Yui that there is.
Next later in the episode when Shinji is in Eva-00.
-----------------
Ritsuko: A10 Nerve connection started.
Announce: Harmonics Level plus 20.
Shinji: Ah, what's this?
Something's directly entering my mind. What is it?
Ayanami? Ayanami Rei? It's Rei, this impression is hers.
Ayanami? Isn't it?
Misato: What's wrong?
Announce:Pilot's nerve-pulse is irregular.
Maya: Psychological contamination taking place.
Ritsuko:Impossible! This plug depth could not trigger that.
Maya: No, it's not from the plug. The invasion's from Eva.
----------------------
Here the A-10 nerve connection is made between Shinji and
Eva-00, and as soon as it is made, Shinji is "contacted" by
something within the Eva. Something which is recognises
as "Rei-like". Maya confirms that this contact isn't coming
from the plug, it is coming from the Eva itself. Ergo, it is coming
from the soul of Eva-00.
So if Rei can pilot Eva-01 because Yui acts like a mother to
her. Well then who could be in Eva-00 that is similar to Yui
as to allow Shinji to connect via the A-10 nerve as if to a
mother.
Well Shinji says it himself. He is contacted by something like Rei.
Rei, who is a clone of his mother.
So where does Naoko fall into all of this?
The fact is that Naoko really had no connection to Eva-00 at all.
Naoko was a computer scientist, she was at Gerhirn to work
on the Magi. That is what she didn't, she wasn't an Eva scientist
like Yui or Kyouko. She didn't participate in any "contact
experiments" with Eva-00. They really is nothing connecting her
to Eva-00 at all... Except that fact that if Rei's soul is in Eva-00,
in particular if a copy of Rei's soul from the time it resided in
Rei-001 was in Eva-00, well then it would have plenty of reasons
to be made at the daughter of it's killer.
And yes of course Rei has Lilith's soul, but that isn't to say that
Rei doesn't make that soul her own, that she doesn't have an effect
on it. When Rei returns to Lilith, Lilith takes on Rei's shape, she
takes on Yui's shape in effect. This is evidence enough to show
that the soul can change and grow.
Anyway there are plenty of threads on this discussed in the past.
Go check out google groups if you want to read up on some of
them.
Frank White
>
>Greetings all..
>
>I've been lurking here for a while now, and my recent viewing (and
>subsequent re-viewings) of the Evangelion movies have prompted me to
>actually post something. For reference, I've seen the whole series in
>both Japanese and English at least thrice, and while I can't claim to
>have seen it when it was new, I did make sure to make the trips to
>Suncoast to purchase each DVD upon it's domestic release within a day or
>two (movies included).
>
>Anyways, the movies have naturally caused my interest in the series to
>peak, and I've been doing a lot of reading on various groups, forums and
>sites, garnering what information I can. As expected with something like
>Eva, however, there's still many questions that remain unanswered, and
>perhaps I could bring up one particular one while I'm at it..
>
>-- If the Eva's possess souls, whose are in each one?
>
>Well, we know that Shinji and Asuka's mothers are in EVA-01 and EVA-02
>respectively, and it's almost certain that Naoko Akagi is in EVA-00
>(besides the chalk outline and blood, we never see the aftermath of her
>death)..
The problem with this idea is, you need to be ALIVE to have
your soul transferred into an EVA. There's nothing to
suggest Naoko survived her swan dive even for a second, or
that they tried synching her prior to that.
It's an appealing idea given that it involves the mother of
one of the main characters - which seems to be a major thread
GE - but it doesn't seem to quite fit.
Neither does the idea that it's MISATO'S mother in EVA-00,
because Misato was originally intended to be an EVA pilot.
In a way it fits (and it would mean that 00's attack on
the window was an attempt to rescue her daughter from
what she realized were her enemies); but it wouldn't
explain how Rei was able to synch, or what Shinji felt
in it...
>but what about the others? EVA-04 never had any screentime as
>far as I know, seeing as how it blew up on activation and all, and
>EVA-03 was possessed by an Angel.. heck, we never even saw Toji in the
>entry plug while it was active, so I can't even say for certain who
>would be in there.
Toji's little sister would seem to be the best candidate.
She was injured in the first episode, which would put her in
NERV's grasp. And she never seems to recover...
>We know from one of the earliest episodes (3 & 4) that Kensuke doesn't
>have a mother.. and from the way Toji speaks similarly, he probably
>doesn't either. And it's later learned that all the children in class
>2-A are candidates for Eva piloting.. was Toji's mother in EVA-03 then?
>If so, since when did he ever have a connection to NERV / SEELE prior to
>being "chosen"?
>
>The fact that EVA-03 and EVA-04 were being built in the United States
>instead of Japan complicates things even further..
>
>THEN AGAIN, we never see or hear any mention of EVA-03 using or
>generating an AT Field at all, and if it lacked a soul, that'd certainly
>make it easy to possess since there wouldn't be any opposing force. That
>coincidentally happens to be the reason that Tabris.. err, Kaworu was
>able to control EVA-02 when Asuka went comatose.. there was no willpower
>to resist him.
>
>But then on the other hand, what the heck good would an Evangelion be if
>it didn't have it's most powerful offensive and defensive weapon, the AT
>Field? They built the thing just so it could go berserk? That seems
>unlikely..
>
>Is ignorance bliss, or does anyone else have thoughts on this? I won't
>even get started on ideas for the Mass Production Units.. ;P
They've got Dummy Plugs.
Guess who the Dummy Plugs are based on.
And why if they'd been facing Shinji, not Asuka, they might
have not been so savage.
^_^
FW
Sam Reeves
Lets muddy the waters with my own input shall we...
couple of things that stand out to me:
Rei has Lilth's soul- wether or not Yui is technically her mother is
irrelevant, Lilith, being an angel, the same as Kaoru, should be able to
synch totally with any of the evas...
(but dont ask me why the eva goes beserk when she's in it, maybe its a
teenage eva, and we all know about them teenagers ^_^ I am one)
I think, that the dummy plugs were rejected (in their second usage) because
the eva did not want them this time, It wanted Shinki instead(as opposed to
the Toji incident when it accepted it, probably because Shinji was in danger
and not doing anything) . The rejection was possible because the dummy
copies were just shells of Rei, with no soul.
00 and Ritsuko's mum- hmm, well, the way it was argued seemed plausible
enough, although i dont' necesarilly subscribe to it. It is possible even
though she was dead, because didnt Asuka's mum hang herself? or was that her
stepmum, in which case ignore the last statement, (hey, what do you want
from a guy at 2am! perfect memory?)
02 and Asuka's mum- this has always puzzled me, It is widely accepted that
Asuka's mum's soul is in 02, but I just couldn't seem to make the
connection! could someone point this out for me?
When she was saying stuff like: 'you were there all this time weren't you' I
took that to mean she found her mother inside herself, and that gave her a
reason to keep on fighting, but please point out what exactly is goin down
^_^.
Finally, JC - welcome dude, glad to have your input, that was a well written
post, and it was convincing the way it was presented. Good stuff mate.
Okidokes, clear as mud? sweet.
SAM
J.C. Bengtson
> Shinji's mother is in Eva-01. We know that for a fact.
> Asuka's mother is in Eva-02. We know that for a fact.
>
> It is established that the A-10 nerve is vital for the Eva's connection
> with the pilot (various sources including a quote from Sadamoto
> saying that directly).
>
> The A-10 nerve link is involves the connection between mother and
> child.
I kind of figured that early in the series.. the Eva basically
substituted for the child's lost parent and that's why they couldn't use
an adult as the pilot. But the A10 Nerve thing was lost on me.. thanks
for the info. Thought it was just more technobabble or somesuch.
<subsequent snips for space>
> Next later in the episode when Shinji is in Eva-00.
> -----------------
> Ritsuko: A10 Nerve connection started.
>
> Announce: Harmonics Level plus 20.
>
> Shinji: Ah, what's this?
> Something's directly entering my mind. What is it?
> Ayanami? Ayanami Rei? It's Rei, this impression is hers.
> Ayanami? Isn't it?
You know, I never put that together. So that little Rei head that he
sees floating for a second before the Eva goes nuts is actually that of
the child-Rei...
> The fact is that Naoko really had no connection to Eva-00 at all.
> Naoko was a computer scientist, she was at Gerhirn to work
> on the Magi. That is what she didn't, she wasn't an Eva scientist
> like Yui or Kyouko. She didn't participate in any "contact
> experiments" with Eva-00.
She did seem to be "expecting" Yui to "die" when she went into EVA-01's
entry plug though, as her dialogue after the fact seemed to show. If she
had no connection to the project, how did she know this? Yui WANTED to
merge with the Eva (I think.. Gendo doesn't seem totally aware of this
because of his single-minded obsession to be with her again after it
happens..).
> They really is nothing connecting her
> to Eva-00 at all... Except that fact that if Rei's soul is in Eva-00,
> in particular if a copy of Rei's soul from the time it resided in
> Rei-001 was in Eva-00, well then it would have plenty of reasons
> to be made at the daughter of it's killer.
Gendo was actually very warm in the short scene he's seen with the
child-Rei, so why would it attack him at the window? Ditto for the other
Rei... she didn't seem to bear any ill will towards the other clones in
Terminal Dogma (we don't know about the clones till the end of the
series, but she is shown in that same area in that weird tube with the
brain thing a few times earlier in the show). Of course that's an
assumption and all, but I just thought I'd bring it up since the one
time it avoids the window is when Shinji is in the plug..
> And yes of course Rei has Lilith's soul, but that isn't to say that
> Rei doesn't make that soul her own, that she doesn't have an effect
> on it. When Rei returns to Lilith, Lilith takes on Rei's shape, she
> takes on Yui's shape in effect. This is evidence enough to show
> that the soul can change and grow.
See, now the reason I thought of my theory and not the one you just
described is, because it means they'd have to "split" the soul.. as,
after all, everytime Rei died, they transferred her soul into a new
body. An "empty shell" as Ritsuko called the clones in the vat. But at
the same time, I DO agree with your statement about it changing, because
Rei III is quite a bit different in personality then Rei II... and Rei I
seemed almost "impish", to copy someone's else's description..
Ahh well, more to ponder on. ;)
> Anyway there are plenty of threads on this discussed in the past.
> Go check out google groups if you want to read up on some of
> them.
I don't. If I want back issues, I'll order a magazine. If I want a
discussion, I'll post a message. :P
Frank White
alaka...@hotmail.com says...
>
>Wow, what goes on when im absent for 24 hours ^_^.
>
>Lets muddy the waters with my own input shall we...
>
>couple of things that stand out to me:
<snip>
>02 and Asuka's mum- this has always puzzled me, It is widely accepted that
>Asuka's mum's soul is in 02, but I just couldn't seem to make the
>connection! could someone point this out for me?
Asuka's mum was an EVA pilot. After Yui's little 'accident',
they tried a new and improved scynch method between her and
EVA-02 that was supposed to prevent 400%. It did, but
SOMETHING apparently got permanently transferred, anyway, and
Asuka's mother started falling apart mentally, leading to
her playing with dolls, losing her grip on reality, and finally
sending herself and the doll to heaven.
In her case, though, it probably finished the transfer of her
soul to 02...
>When she was saying stuff like: 'you were there all this time weren't you'
I
>took that to mean she found her mother inside herself, and that gave her a
>reason to keep on fighting, but please point out what exactly is goin down
>^_^.
Asuka found her mother, they made up, then went out and kicked
MPE bootie.
^_^
FW
Michael Wignall
> Michael Wignall wrote:
> > Shinji's mother is in Eva-01. We know that for a fact.
> > Asuka's mother is in Eva-02. We know that for a fact.
> >
> > It is established that the A-10 nerve is vital for the Eva's connection
> > with the pilot (various sources including a quote from Sadamoto
> > saying that directly).
> >
> > The A-10 nerve link is involves the connection
> > between mother and child.
>
> I kind of figured that early in the series.. the Eva basically
> substituted for the child's lost parent and that's why they couldn't use
> an adult as the pilot. But the A10 Nerve thing was lost on me.. thanks
> for the info. Thought it was just more technobabble or somesuch.
Here is the full text of that section in the D&R theatrical program:
----------
[A^10 Nerve (A^10 Shinkei)]
The Evangelion are controlled mainly by linking with the cranial
nerves of the pilot. Of these, the most important is this A^10
nerve. The human brain stem has four rows of neural nuclei
running vertically along its center, and the two outside rows
of this arrangement are called the A nerves. Counting from
the bottom, the tenth nerve in these rows is the A^10 nerve.
The A^10 nerve passes from the brain stem through the lower
optic thalamus and is distributed to the sincipital portion of the
cerebral cortex comprising most of the frontal, parietal and
temporal lobes. It is associated with higher order brain functions
such as memory, cognisance and the execution of movement,
and with emotions such as anxiety, fear, happiness and pleasure.
In addition, it is also said to play an important role in affection
between parent and child, and between lovers.
---------
> <subsequent snips for space>
>
> > Next later in the episode when Shinji is in Eva-00.
> > -----------------
> > Ritsuko: A10 Nerve connection started.
> >
> > Announce: Harmonics Level plus 20.
> >
> > Shinji: Ah, what's this?
> > Something's directly entering my mind. What is it?
> > Ayanami? Ayanami Rei? It's Rei, this impression is hers.
> > Ayanami? Isn't it?
>
> You know, I never put that together. So that little Rei head
> that he sees floating for a second before the Eva goes nuts
> is actually that of the child-Rei...
I think so.
There is no way Shinji could be "remembering" that image, it
can't be a flashback, because he never met that Child-Rei.
Yet when he is in the Eva he is "contacted" by something
he recognises as "Rei-like" and he sees a child-Rei.
> > The fact is that Naoko really had no connection to Eva-00 at all.
> > Naoko was a computer scientist, she was at Gerhirn to work
> > on the Magi. That is what she didn't, she wasn't an Eva scientist
> > like Yui or Kyouko. She didn't participate in any "contact
> > experiments" with Eva-00.
>
> She did seem to be "expecting" Yui to "die" when she went into
> EVA-01's entry plug though, as her dialogue after the fact seemed
> to show. If she had no connection to the project, how did she
> know this?
I don't think she expected it, just that she hoped it would happen,
she hoped Yui would somehow be erased from the picture period.
"Those words would prove to be Yui's last. A freak accident
wiped her from this existence. Just as I had hoped it would.
What a disgusting woman I am."
She describes it as a "freak accident", that isn't the way you
describe something you expect to happen. Yui and Kyouko
were both described as Eva scientists who worked directly
on the Evas and participated in contact experiments with
then. Naoko is never mentioned as working on the Evas at
all.
> Yui WANTED to merge with the Eva (I think.. Gendo doesn't
> seem totally aware of this because of his single-minded
> obsession to be with her again after it happens..).
Yes Yui did, Fuyutsuki certainly knew Yui's intentions (see flash
back in EoE) however I don't think Gendou knew.
> > They really is nothing connecting her
> > to Eva-00 at all... Except that fact that if Rei's soul is in Eva-00,
> > in particular if a copy of Rei's soul from the time it resided in
> > Rei-001 was in Eva-00, well then it would have plenty of reasons
> > to be made at the daughter of it's killer.
>
> Gendo was actually very warm in the short scene he's seen
> with the child-Rei, so why would it attack him at the window?
I don't think it did. Ritsuko says it is after her "without a doubt".
Gendou just happened to be in the way. The Eva _was_ going
berserk remember, this is not a clinical attack, it was a rage against
a specific target, not caring about what else was in the way.
> Ditto for the other Rei... she didn't seem to bear any ill will
> towards the other clones in Terminal Dogma (we don't know
> about the clones till the end of the series, but she is shown in
> that same area in that weird tube with the brain thing a few
> times earlier in the show).
See above. I don't think Rei was targeting either. Misato suggests
that Eva-00 was after Rei in episode 14, but Ritsuko rejects that
idea and says it was after her.
> Of course that's an assumption and all, but I just thought I'd bring
> it up since the one time it avoids the window is when Shinji is in
> the plug..
When Shinji is in the plug it smashes the window where Rei is,
which prompts Misato to suggest it was after Rei, but again, I
don't think it was after anyone by Ritsuko.
> > And yes of course Rei has Lilith's soul, but that isn't to say that
> > Rei doesn't make that soul her own, that she doesn't have an effect
> > on it. When Rei returns to Lilith, Lilith takes on Rei's shape, she
> > takes on Yui's shape in effect. This is evidence enough to show
> > that the soul can change and grow.
>
> See, now the reason I thought of my theory and not the one you
> just described is, because it means they'd have to "split" the soul..
> as, after all, everytime Rei died, they transferred her soul into a
> new body. An "empty shell" as Ritsuko called the clones in the vat.
I don't think the soul was "split". I think it was merely copied, imprinted
into the Core of Eva-00. The true nature of souls is never explained in
the Eva universe, I see now reason why Rei/Lilith's soul couldn't be
imprinted onto the Core of Eva-00.
> But at the same time, I DO agree with your statement about it changing,
> because Rei III is quite a bit different in personality then Rei II...
> and Rei I seemed almost "impish", to copy someone's else's description..
It is clear that they are also three distinct "versions" of Rei. In EoE we
see
all three of them standing over Gendou. The may all share the same soul
(originally Lilith's) but they are still different "people" in their own
rights.
Shinji specifically sees a child-rei in Eva-00, something he can't possible
"remember".
> > Anyway there are plenty of threads on this discussed in the past.
> > Go check out google groups if you want to read up on some of
> > them.
>
> I don't. If I want back issues, I'll order a magazine. If I want a
> discussion, I'll post a message. :P
I wasn't suggesting a stop to the discussion. Just that the majority
the regular posters who contributed to these topics have left the
group, and unfortunately there hasn't been many new ones to
fill their places, so the amount of discussion this topic might once
have generated (hundreds and hundreds of post) will only get
a paltry few.
Ramandu
>I wasn't suggesting a stop to the discussion. Just that the majority
>the regular posters who contributed to these topics have left the
>group, and unfortunately there hasn't been many new ones to
>fill their places, so the amount of discussion this topic might once
>have generated (hundreds and hundreds of post) will only get
>a paltry few.
::raises hand:: I'm new, but I'm here. Look back in this thread to my post
about this topic generally and the MP Evas specifically; I'm still waiting for
someone to reply to that one.
Anyway, what exactly would a Rei/Lilith-based Unit 00 have against Ritsuko?
Naoko was the one who killed Child Rei, and she paid for it with her life soon
afterward. Why would Unit 00 be filled with rage at the daughter? If, however,
we consider a Naoko-based Unit 00, her rage at her daughter makes a little more
sense. (A lot of other things don't, but this does.)
--R.--
Michael Wignall
news:20021018220348...@mb-bk.aol.com...
> Anyway, what exactly would a Rei/Lilith-based Unit 00 have
> against Ritsuko? Naoko was the one who killed Child Rei,
> and she paid for it with her life soon afterward. Why would
> Unit 00 be filled with rage at the daughter?
Becuase Ritsuko is the daughter of Naoko and Ritsuko is one
of the only other people that Rei-001 had met at that point .
You have to consider that this is a berserk rage, it isn't rational,
it is a wild lashing out. Ritsuko states that this lashing out is
directed at her, she also states that the first incident was due
to mental instability in Rei. This is not a logical act.
> If, however, we consider a Naoko-based Unit 00, her rage
> at her daughter makes a little more sense. (A lot of other things
> don't, but this does.)
Why would Naoko rage at her daughter? If you are referring to
Gendou and Ritsuko getting together, there is no way that Naoko
would know that. I mean Eva-00 doesn't take part in NERV gossip,
unless Gendou and Ritsuko actually got down and dirty in front
on Eva-00 it would have no idea what was going on there.
Ramandu
>"Ramandu" <rama...@aol.comnojunk> wrote in message
>news:20021018220348...@mb-bk.aol.com...
>> Anyway, what exactly would a Rei/Lilith-based Unit 00 have
>> against Ritsuko? Naoko was the one who killed Child Rei,
>> and she paid for it with her life soon afterward. Why would
>> Unit 00 be filled with rage at the daughter?
>
>Becuase Ritsuko is the daughter of Naoko and Ritsuko is one
>of the only other people that Rei-001 had met at that point .
>You have to consider that this is a berserk rage, it isn't rational,
>it is a wild lashing out. Ritsuko states that this lashing out is
>directed at her, she also states that the first incident was due
>to mental instability in Rei. This is not a logical act.
Yes, in the context of wild rage, it does make sense; you're right.
>> If, however, we consider a Naoko-based Unit 00, her rage
>> at her daughter makes a little more sense. (A lot of other things
>> don't, but this does.)
>
>Why would Naoko rage at her daughter? If you are referring to
>Gendou and Ritsuko getting together, there is no way that Naoko
>would know that. I mean Eva-00 doesn't take part in NERV gossip,
>unless Gendou and Ritsuko actually got down and dirty in front
>on Eva-00 it would have no idea what was going on there.
But is there any chance that Rei II might have known about Gendou and Ritsuko?
If she did, is there a possibility that factual knowledge like that might flow
from pilot to Eva during synchronization?
--R.--
Michael Wignall
> Michael Wignall said:
> >Why would Naoko rage at her daughter? If you are referring to
> >Gendou and Ritsuko getting together, there is no way that Naoko
> >would know that. I mean Eva-00 doesn't take part in NERV gossip,
> >unless Gendou and Ritsuko actually got down and dirty in front
> >on Eva-00 it would have no idea what was going on there.
>
> But is there any chance that Rei II might have known about Gendou
> and Ritsuko? If she did, is there a possibility that factual knowledge
> like that might flow from pilot to Eva during synchronization?
That's a possibility sure, but it is totally unsupported. As I have been
saying, the Naoko theory is not supported in any way within the series.
We are never given any indication that the Eva can "gain" informatiom
from its pilot during synchronization, we are not told that it can't, but
we are also not told that the Shinji can't fly, but nobody believes that
he can.
Sam Reeves
>Why would Naoko rage at her daughter? If you are >referring to Gendou and
Ritsuko getting together, there is >no way that Naoko would know that. I
mean Eva-00 >doesn't take part in NERV gossip,
How do you know? I can just picture them all around a huge coffee table,
talking about how they wish they could change their tacky colour coding with
the latest fashions from
"Domo Arigato Mr Roboto" fashion wharehouse for huge robots.
Unit 01: and you know that bitch Ritsuko? I heard that she was sleeping with
my husband!
Unit 00: No way! youre kidding! what a slut, <mental note: mustnt tell her I
also slept with Gendo> <additional mental note: must go berserk soon and
attempt to kill slutty daughter>.
^_^
SAM
Diamon
> Anyway, what exactly would a Rei/Lilith-based Unit 00 have against
Ritsuko?
Look at it as Unit 00 containing the soul of Yui not Rei/Lilith. And what
does Yui have against Ritsuko? Umm... maybe the fact that Gendo is/was
sleeping with her? Ig Gendo's feelings are so strong for Yui we must assume
her's would be strong for him also.
J.C. Bengtson
> Why would Naoko rage at her daughter?
Ritsuko: Before my mother died, she told me the three MAGI represented
the three portions of herself. Herself as a woman, herself as a
scientist, and herself as a mother. I don't think I'm the kind of person
to ever have children, so I didn't think much about her as a mother, but
I did respect her as a scientist. However, I hated her as a woman.
(paraphrased)
Caspar, the MAGI that contained the personality of Naoko "as a woman"
was the last one to hold out when it was invaded by an Angel, and it
also was the one out of the three that rejected Ritsuko's command to
self-destruct when she was in Terminal Dogma with Gendo and Rei III. And
seeing as how those personalities were obviously transplanted when she
was alive, if she herself was "in" EVA-00, it would react similarly.
Yes, my evidence is probably still flawed, but I wanted to point out
that I did have a little more to work on. Gimme some time and I'll try
and find more. ;)
> If you are referring to
> Gendou and Ritsuko getting together, there is no way that Naoko
> would know that. I mean Eva-00 doesn't take part in NERV gossip,
> unless Gendou and Ritsuko actually got down and dirty in front
> on Eva-00 it would have no idea what was going on there.
I doubt that, but Gendo does "talk" to Unit 01 and calls it "Yui", and
Misato wonders at one point if the "Eva's hate us". So it's not
altogether impossible.. but yeah, unlikely on that front.
Ramandu
>>Why would Naoko rage at her daughter? If you are >referring to Gendou and
>Ritsuko getting together, there is >no way that Naoko would know that. I
>mean Eva-00 >doesn't take part in NERV gossip,
>
>How do you know? I can just picture them all around a huge coffee table,
>talking about how they wish they could change their tacky colour coding with
>the latest fashions from
>"Domo Arigato Mr Roboto" fashion wharehouse for huge robots.
I can imagine Unit 00 having trouble drinking coffee, what with having no depth
perception and all.
--R.--
Ramandu
Yui is in Unit 01, not Unit 00. Yui and Lilith are two different souls.
--R.--
Michael Wignall
> >"Ramandu" <rama...@aol.comnojunk> wrote in message
> >news:20021018220348...@mb-bk.aol.com...
> >> Anyway, what exactly would a Rei/Lilith-based Unit 00 have
> >>against Ritsuko?
> >
> >Look at it as Unit 00 containing the soul of Yui not Rei/Lilith.
> >act that Gendo is/wassleeping with her? Ig Gendo's feelings
> >are so strong for Yui we must assumeher's would be strong for him also.
>
> Yui is in Unit 01, not Unit 00. Yui and Lilith are two different souls.
Yes, however those souls are specifically described as "similar",
and that they needed to be similar to allow Rei to pilot Eva-01.
Yui is in Eva-01, something with a similar personality to Yui is
in Eva-00.
Michael Wignall
> Michael Wignall wrote:
> > Why would Naoko rage at her daughter?
>
>
> Caspar, the MAGI that contained the personality of Naoko "as
> a woman" was the last one to hold out when it was invaded by
> an Angel, and it also was the one out of the three that rejected
> Ritsuko's command to self-destruct when she was in Terminal
> Dogma with Gendo and Rei III. And seeing as how those
> personalities were obviously transplanted when she was alive,
> if she herself was "in" EVA-00, it would react similarly.
The _woman_ part of Naoko's personality chose Gendou over
Ritsuko. The Mother and Scientist parts of Naoko (in the Magi)
choose Ritsuko (ie, chose to go along with Ritsuko, and self-destruct).
Overall Naoko chose Ritsuko, however it only needed to woman
side to veto the command. That situation just shows the woman
side of Naoko choosing her man, which makes perfect sense.
Overally Naoko would still chose her daughter, and in the series
there is absolutely no evidence that Eva-00 knew about Ritsuko
and Gendou.
> Yes, my evidence is probably still flawed, but I wanted to point
> out that I did have a little more to work on. Gimme some time
> and I'll try and find more. ;)
Did you come up with this idea yourself? Or did you read it somewhere?
It seems to me that people just read that Naoko is in Eva-00, think
that it must be true without ever actually having looked at it closely.
There is _nothing_ in the series that supports that theory. Really the
only thing going for the theory is that Naoko is a woman and she is
dead. Everything else is just pure conjecture, never supported once
in the series proper.
Diamon
"Ramandu" <rama...@aol.comnojunk> wrote in message
news:20021019102725...@mb-fg.aol.com...
J.C. Bengtson
> Did you come up with this idea yourself? Or did you read it somewhere?
I heard it somewhere, then again, this was when I first got into Eva
(like a year after it's initial release in Japan), so it wouldn't
surprise me if I was lied to. *shrug*
I mean no offense when I posted, just something that's been bugging me
since I got to that point in the series and the fact it's never
DEFINITELY answered as it was in Shinji and Asuka's cases.
Michael Wignall
> I mean no offense when I posted, just something that's been
> bugging me since I got to that point in the series and the fact
> it's never DEFINITELY answered as it was in Shinji and
> Asuka's cases.
Don't worry, I didn't take any offence by it. I was just pointing
out that it is wholly unsupported within the series. There are
better theories out there that are actually supported within
the series. Of course as Anno says, "We all have to find our
own answers".