Naturalization process for France
Eric Takabayashi
language and culture are to nationality. Would you care
to peruse the naturalization requirements for your own
country, or comment on the fact that "automatic"
citizenship for the second generation was only
reinstated in 1998: "In short, birthright citizenship
has never been unconditional for second generation
migrants in France." I do not consider seven month's
processing time to be a long wait, but this writer
considers it "very long". The way France also requires
the entire family to naturalize is also questionable.
Most importantly, please comment on the "social and
cultural assimilation" or proof of assimilation
requirement to becoming a citizen in France, including
LANGUAGE skill or if the applicant "participates in
French cultural life". Indeed:
- "Reasons to postponea [sic] demand can be
grounded upon insufficient knowledge of French."
- "Lack of societal assimilation is a good example
to demonstrate the capricious nature of the French
system."
- "Another thorny justification to reject
citizenship claims was the use of the discretionary
right enjoyed by public officials. In 20% of all
rejected cases, the decision was based on the
discretionary margin of the administration. In other
words the applicant was refused citizenship though he
fulfilled all requirements."
- "Moreover, many civil servants state, that they
feel overworked and do not see any incentive to raise
the naturalization numbers."
- "in the case of Germany the government changed
the naturalization laws for the first generation in
1990, 1993 and 1999, whereas the French government
never even considered any modification to be necessary.
Hence, since the creation of the Code de la nationalit
Ž in 1945, the conditions for the first generation to
naturalize, were not addressed in any of the French
citizenship reform measures."
Go on, cc, tell us how irrelevant all these are to
nationality. Go on and tell us how irrelevant it is for
people in France not to know the local language and
culture, or question that such things even exist.
2.2 The Naturalization of the First Generation in
France: A Waiting Game.
The conditions for naturalization for the first
generation in France are very similar to those in the
German guide-lines. Contrary to the German Alien Act of
2000, the French Code Civil of 1993 (formerly the Code
de la nationalitŽ), does not provide a legal claim for
naturalization. Even if the applicant fulfils all
requirements, he can be refused by means of a
discretionary decision. The actual requirements are:
Art. 21 of the Code Civil of 1993: Naturalization of
aliens
- minimum residence time of 5 years,
- no criminal record
- secured income and
- societal and cultural assimilation.
As in Germany, shorter residence time is required
for family members and some other groups. However, the
flip side to this is that the entire family is expected
to naturalize. Otherwise, the applicant can be denied
citizenship. In Germany, this provision was abolished
in 1991. What the French state does not require from
the applicant is that he renounce his former
citizenship. In other words, dual nationality is
tolerated without being explicitly stated in the laws.
The requirements for the proof of assimilation are
in some aspects more difficult than in Germany. Beside
the knowledge of French, the civil administration seeks
to verify if the applicant has contact with other
French persons, if he participates in French cultural
life or is a member of a sports club, and if he is
assimilated to French customs and traditions. In some
cases, this might be easy to identify. For example
political extreme positions or polygamy are clear
grounds to refuse citizenship. But in most other cases
this is an ambiguous requirement. Is wearing a scarf a
sign for incomplete assimilation? In those cases the
assessment depends on the local prefecture.
In the French guidelines, not only assimilation but
also the applicant's motivation is an important
criterion. The applicant is expected to have an
"ethical impeccable" motivation to acquire French
citizenship. Another objection may be poor health
condition of the applicant. In case of doubt, the
prefect can demand an official health record. The
condition of impunity ( tre de bonne vie et mÏurs) goes
further than having a clean criminal record for the
past ten years- both in France and in the country of
origin. Though exceptions can be made for smaller
offenses, the prefect also has to deliver a report on
the general moral behavior of the applicant.
Typical for France is a decentralized structure to
receive applications and a centralized structure to
decide them. This means, that the local prefect
receives the request and determines if the documents
are complete and properly filled out. He then delivers
his opinion on every dossier by either approving or
disapproving to the naturalization request. The dossier
is send to the central Direction de Migration et
Population (henceforth, DPM) in Nantes, which makes the
final decision. The advantage of such a centralized
procedure is that regional differences in evaluating
cases can be compensated. Though, if potential
applicants are discouraged by the local administration
to apply for naturalization, the DPM is not able to
intervene. The disadvantages are the proximity to the
DPM, the length of processing and the responsibility of
a dozen or more civil servants to decide all
naturalization cases in France.
The time to process an application is very long. In
Paris, where 50% of all naturalization take place, the
waiting time for the applicants amounted in 1997 to
seven months for a initial meeting with a staff member
and additional eight months to have the obligatory
interview in which assimilation potential and personal
motivation is examined. The delivery to the DPM took
another ten months. As in Germany, the bureaucratic
process varied in extremes from city to city. According
to a study of seven selected prefectures undertaken by
the trade union CFDT, the processing lasted between
five months in the prefecture of Charente and over
three years in the prefecture of Nord.[viii]
Corresponding to the German situation, the time to
process the application does not correlate with the
actual number of aliens or applicants in the region.
Rather, the organizational structure and personnel seem
to be important reasons for the differences. The
prefectures themselves stated the lack of professional
education of their administrators and of unified
regulations as the most pressing matters in the
application review process. Moreover, naturalization is
only one of the many tasks of the prefectures. Until
1998, naturalization did not enjoy any priority either
in the prefectures or in the central DPM, because there
was no time limit for their processing. With the reform
in 1998, this changed. The parliament decided to limit
the process to a maximum of eighteen months. If the
administration does not decide the case in time, the
applicant automatically becomes a French citizen. This
is nothing new for France, as time limits have already
existed for foreign born spouses and for the young
migrants ( manifestants de volontŽ).
cc
"Eric Takabayashi" <eta...@yahoo.co.jp> wrote in message
> Please cc, come on back and tell me how irrelevant
> language and culture are to nationality.
It is. Give me any French law explaining that a fluency in French gives a
foreigner any special right in France.
And after a few centuries of linguistic centralisation, the French citizens
and residents
have obtained the right no to learn the official language, not to teach it
to their kids, even receive money to create schools in other dialects.
National education teachers lost the right to use most of the means they had
to force their pupil to learn French.
No, it's on a voluntary basis.
>"In short, birthright citizenship
> has never been unconditional
France is not the USA. There is no birthright. Never existed since the
prehistoric times.
You are French if one of your parent is French and registered you. Other
cases have never been unconditional.
That said, 3rd generation adult foreign residents are a rarity. Residents
have 99,9% chances of getting naturalized if they are not criminal and wait
long enough. What counts the more is the length of continuous residency.
If you can obtain the right to be a resident (which is difficult) and wish
to become French, it's unlikely you don't obtain the nationality in a delay
of 10 to 15 years. Even if you speak only English. You wouldn't be the first
naturalized English teacher or American millionaire to naturalize without
knowing 3 words of French. You have no obligation to change your name in
Jean-Eric Dupond, but if that's your intention, you'd better to ask it
together
with naturalization (or you'll have to wait 5 to 10 more years).
Well, I warn you : my compatriots are not easy to live with.
The other way is to do a number of years in the Legion.
>comment on the fact that "automatic"
> citizenship for the second generation was only
> reinstated in 1998:
Wasn't it suppressed at last ? Many foreigners DID NOT WANT to become French
automatically on their 18th birthday (they had to do paperwork to cancel the
process). I've seen petitions for that suppression in the 90's.
I didn't follow French politics so carefully in the last years. That never
was a problem for people regularly born of foreign parents in France that
had resided there until the age of 18 to obtain citizenship at 18, and for
people arrived as children and being regular resident in continuity enough
years before turning 18. All my highschool friends that wished it obtained
French nationality...more easily than their baccalaureat (end of highschool
degree)
These days , I think, they need to fill a simple form stating they want
French nationality a few months before their birthday, no language test or
investigation, no condition. Only a serious criminal condemnation can cause
they don't obtain it, because in that case they'd lose their residency
right, anyway (that's called "double penalty").
> The way France also requires
> the entire family to naturalize is also questionable.
Where did you find that BS ? I know tons of naturalized French (25% of
inhabitants of my hometown), and the cases the entire family naturalize at
the same time are the exception rather than the rule. I can imagine it
possible
only in the case of a couple of same origine with their young children.
A friend was refused his naturalization 6 month ago All his living relatives
are now naturalized. In fact, he asked at the same time as his parents, but
they had to make distinct files. (He is native speaker of French, studied in
France from the age of 12 till PhD, worked during years in a cultural center
in France....so you see how they care !)
> Most importantly, please comment on the "social and
> cultural assimilation" or proof of assimilation
They don't say "assimilation to mainstream society", being accepted in a
ghetto is enough.
> requirement to becoming a citizen in France, including
> LANGUAGE skill
I'm sure Catalan, Alsatian, Corsican, Gaelic, Euskadi, Argot, Verlan, sign
language, HTML
, English, etc skills can be considered more than enough.
>or if the applicant "participates in
> French cultural life".
You see well it's "or". Naturalized first generation migrants that hardly
speak French are numerous. Actually they participate in cultural life like
the Festival of Italian Cinema (famous in an "Italian" industrial pit not
far from my hometown, Fellini came to present several films) or the French
Ramadan festivities.
And the true reason is they can't refuse naturalization to people that
worked 40 years at a row in French factories, raised French children and are
going to die in France anyway.
> - "in the case of Germany the government changed
> the naturalization laws for the first generation in
> 1990, 1993 and 1999, whereas the French government
> never even considered any modification to be necessary.
Maybe no modification is necessary. Administration is long to process the
files, that's all what people whine about.
What is discussed and was often reformed is the set of rules about
residency, illegal aliens and double penalty.
Compare the % of naturalization in France and Germany , if you want to have
fun.
CC
Eric Takabayashi
> "Eric Takabayashi" <eta...@yahoo.co.jp> wrote in message
>
> > Please cc, come on back and tell me how irrelevant
> > language and culture are to nationality.
>
> It is.
That's not what the law says. Similar applies in Japan and the US.
> Give me any French law explaining that a fluency in French gives a
> foreigner any special right in France.
Why?
> And after a few centuries of linguistic centralisation, the French citizens
> and residents
> have obtained the right no to learn the official language, not to teach it
> to their kids, even receive money to create schools in other dialects.
> National education teachers lost the right to use most of the means they had
> to force their pupil to learn French.
> No, it's on a voluntary basis.
Are they French in anything but name? Note that Japan is not this way.
> >"In short, birthright citizenship has never been unconditional
>
> France is not the USA. There is no birthright. Never existed since the
> prehistoric times.
> You are French if one of your parent is French and registered you. Other
> cases have never been unconditional.
Then note what is required to become a French citizen and stop telling me how
language and cultural participation or assimilation are irrelevant.
> That said, 3rd generation adult foreign residents are a rarity. Residents
> have 99,9% chances of getting naturalized if they are not criminal and wait
> long enough. What counts the more is the length of continuous residency.
Peruse the site, Table 4, showing how 67% are accepted. Please note the
"societal and cultural assimilation" requirements to become a French citizen,
which includes language, and how the second most common reason for rejection by
a significant margin, was lack of assimilation, as well as 20% of applications
being rejected despite fulfilling all requirements.
> If you can obtain the right to be a resident (which is difficult) and wish
> to become French, it's unlikely you don't obtain the nationality in a delay
> of 10 to 15 years. Even if you speak only English. You wouldn't be the first
> naturalized English teacher or American millionaire to naturalize without
> knowing 3 words of French.
How do they get around the law?
> You have no obligation to change your name in
> Jean-Eric Dupond, but if that's your intention, you'd better to ask it
> together
> with naturalization (or you'll have to wait 5 to 10 more years).
> Well, I warn you : my compatriots are not easy to live with.
>
> The other way is to do a number of years in the Legion.
They speak French and are assimilated into the group, no?
> >comment on the fact that "automatic"
> > citizenship for the second generation was only
> > reinstated in 1998:
>
> Wasn't it suppressed at last ? Many foreigners DID NOT WANT to become French
> automatically on their 18th birthday (they had to do paperwork to cancel the
> process). I've seen petitions for that suppression in the 90's.
> I didn't follow French politics so carefully in the last years. That never
> was a problem for people regularly born of foreign parents in France that
> had resided there until the age of 18 to obtain citizenship at 18, and for
> people arrived as children and being regular resident in continuity enough
> years before turning 18. All my highschool friends that wished it obtained
> French nationality...more easily than their baccalaureat (end of highschool
> degree)
Did they speak French or undergo "societal and cultural assimilation"?
> These days , I think, they need to fill a simple form stating they want
> French nationality a few months before their birthday, no language test or
> investigation, no condition. Only a serious criminal condemnation can cause
> they don't obtain it, because in that case they'd lose their residency
> right, anyway (that's called "double penalty").
>
> > The way France also requires
> > the entire family to naturalize is also questionable.
>
> Where did you find that BS ?
> I know tons of naturalized French (25% of
> inhabitants of my hometown), and the cases the entire family naturalize at
> the same time
I don't recall anyone saying at the same time.
> are the exception rather than the rule. I can imagine it
> possible
> only in the case of a couple of same origine with their young children.
> A friend was refused his naturalization 6 month ago All his living relatives
> are now naturalized. In fact, he asked at the same time as his parents, but
> they had to make distinct files. (He is native speaker of French, studied in
> France from the age of 12 till PhD, worked during years in a cultural center
> in France....so you see how they care !)
Yes, see how they care. It is not irrelevant, despite your claims.
> > Most importantly, please comment on the "social and
> > cultural assimilation" or proof of assimilation
>
> They don't say "assimilation to mainstream society", being accepted in a
> ghetto is enough.
Not for your PhD friend, apparently.
> > requirement to becoming a citizen in France, including
> > LANGUAGE skill
>
> I'm sure Catalan, Alsatian, Corsican, Gaelic, Euskadi, Argot, Verlan, sign
> language, HTML
> , English, etc skills can be considered more than enough.
>
> >or if the applicant "participates in
> > French cultural life".
>
> You see well it's "or". Naturalized first generation migrants that hardly
> speak French are numerous. Actually they participate in cultural life like
> the Festival of Italian Cinema (famous in an "Italian" industrial pit not
> far from my hometown, Fellini came to present several films) or the French
> Ramadan festivities.
> And the true reason is they can't refuse naturalization to people that
> worked 40 years at a row in French factories, raised French children and are
> going to die in France anyway.
>
> > - "in the case of Germany the government changed
> > the naturalization laws for the first generation in
> > 1990, 1993 and 1999, whereas the French government
> > never even considered any modification to be necessary.
>
> Maybe no modification is necessary.
Why not?
> Administration is long to process the
> files, that's all what people whine about.
> What is discussed and was often reformed is the set of rules about
> residency, illegal aliens and double penalty.
>
> Compare the % of naturalization in France and Germany , if you want to have
> fun.
Peruse the site, Table 4. The situation in France looks serious enough all by
itself.
Which is besides the point.
Factors such as language and societal and cultural assimilation are relevant,
despite your claims. In France as well as other countries like Japan.
cc
"Eric Takabayashi" <eta...@yahoo.co.jp> wrote in message
> > Give me any French law explaining that a fluency in French gives a
> > foreigner any special right in France.
>
> Why?
Because that was your original argument that you become "[such country]ese"
when you become fluent in [such country]ish.
> > And after a few centuries of linguistic centralisation, the French
citizens
> > and residents
> > have obtained the right no to learn the official language, not to teach
it
> > to their kids, even receive money to create schools in other dialects.
> Are they French in anything but name?
The citizens, yes, in rights. The residents, not even by name.
>Note that Japan is not this way.
No ?
Schools in other languages are allowed as well, the only difference is they
don't receive public money (but in France, it's logical they do as the State
is supposed to pay for education of citizens and residents' kids ).
Japanese kids that don't study, don't do the homework are not forced, and
they are allowed to go as far as the end og highschool, even further. . You
told that yourself. They are not even forced to attend a school.
Yesterday, I was talking about a student a friend wanted to "abandon" me.
That girl is 14, she has the level of a 6 yr old in Japanese. She lived a
few years in gaikoku, and since then,doesn't go to school. She studies
languages, and a few subjects the parents selected in private lessons. She
doesn't learn nihongo. She is not an isolated case.
> Then note what is required to become a French citizen
To be born of a French parent.
These days, France has no policy to expand its population by immigration or
wars. So others are exceptions.
The principle is to naturalize long term regular resident people that are
likely to finish their life in France.
So what is required is :
-to be legally resident (which is the most difficult part)
-to be enough integrated to support yourself and don't create public trouble
Administration decides of the criteria, depending on the applicant age, and
situation. They don't say why when they accept.
That you need 5 years of regular residency (or x years in case of special
family/political situation) to apply is in the law.
That you have to speak French is not in the law. It's given in your doc as
"reason" given by administration to reject or postpone. That doesn't mean
they reject all those that don't speak French.
You should hear my Sicilian neighbours, he speaks good French, she, not 2
words, Sicilian women of her generations live in their kitchen...At the
prefecture, they saw her file, 40 + years in France, 4 French kids, 8 French
grand-kids, the file of the husband getting processed. They didn't even ask
her 2 questions at the interview. They checked all the OK boxes imediatly.
>> You wouldn't be the first
> > naturalized English teacher or American millionaire to naturalize
without
> > knowing 3 words of French.
>
> How do they get around the law?
They don't. They get a translation of their application file.
If the prefecture staff decides they are integrated, and leading a steady
life, inspite of not speaking French, they stamp the file.
> > The other way is to do a number of years in the Legion.
> They speak French and are assimilated into the group, no?
No idea. That concerns a dozen of person a year, never met any.
>>All my highschool friends that wished it obtained
> > French nationality...
> Did they speak French
More or less.
One high school friend still can't speak French (his young years in Laos
were terrible, he lost all his family, etc, after that he was unable to
learn a language) and he is a French citizen now.
>or undergo "societal and cultural assimilation"?
No. They got their nationality automatically without any test, interview or
investigation. That's explained in your doc.
The doc is well...the way you quote ugly and distorting.
> > That said, 3rd generation adult foreign residents are a rarity.
Residents
> > have 99,9% chances of getting naturalized if they are not criminal and
wait
> > long enough. What counts the more is the length of continuous residency.
>
> Peruse the site, Table 4, showing how 67% are accepted
Read again ! Postponed is not rejected. Rejected people are not deported or
anything
, they can try again later.
> Peruse the site, Table 4. The situation in France looks serious enough all
by
> itself.
Table 4 say they reject 14% of applications, in those 14% , there can
be -the years that rate is high- about 10% of people rejected for lack of
assimilation.
That makes 1,4 % of people that see their application rejected because the
RG (French equivalent of CIA) highly suspects them of spending their
evenings at Al Qaida meetings.
And that doesn't mean they are not accepted a few years later when they have
shaved their beard, got a real job and 2 brats (then the RG only keep them
in the list of retired potential public enemy)..
Only 14 % of rejections ? I'm surprised that's that low as I know a number
of people that had to apply 2 times, before getting it.
CC
cc
"Eric Takabayashi" <eta...@yahoo.co.jp> wrote in message
> > A friend was refused his naturalization 6 month ago All his living
relatives
> > are now naturalized. In fact, he asked at the same time as his parents,
but
> > they had to make distinct files. (He is native speaker of French,
studied in
> > France from the age of 12 till PhD, worked during years in a cultural
center
> > in France....so you see how they care !)
>
> Yes, see how they care. It is not irrelevant, despite your claims.
It is completely irrelevant here.
His file was rejected because of discontinuity of residency (he went to
Japan in the 5 years before his application was processed , so now they'll
count the years after he's back from Japan!).
Having the right of residency in France is automatic for him because he is
from E.U...not for his Japanese wife. Which is the reason why he wanted
French nationality. He applied the day he decided to get married, but the
file took 3 years to arrive from his ambassy to
the good office at the prefecture. Normally, people don't care. But the day
they called him, he was in Japan. Immediate automatic rejection. Of course,
they said : reapply after 5 years of residency, you're sure to get it. When
they go back, that will be complicated for his wife's visa.
CC
Eric Takabayashi
> "Eric Takabayashi" <eta...@yahoo.co.jp> wrote in message
>
> > > Give me any French law explaining that a fluency in French gives a
> > > foreigner any special right in France.
> >
> > Why?
>
> Because that was your original argument that you become "[such country]ese"
> when you become fluent in [such country]ish.
Not legally. We were talking about language and culture.
> > > And after a few centuries of linguistic centralisation, the French
> citizens
> > > and residents
> > > have obtained the right no to learn the official language, not to teach
> it
> > > to their kids, even receive money to create schools in other dialects.
>
> > Are they French in anything but name?
>
> The citizens, yes, in rights. The residents, not even by name.
>
> >Note that Japan is not this way.
>
> No ?
No. Japan has language and cultural assimilation requirements for
naturalization, and one would be alienating their Japan born and raised
children, if they did not teach them Japanese.
It does not seem to bother you that there are French people who are good only
for the countryside, the factory or the kitchen, and not as able to be a
greater part of society. Perhaps they are deserving of more, or would be more
aware of their rights, if they could only speak the language the majority
spoke.
> Schools in other languages are allowed as well, the only difference is they
> don't receive public money
And it was policy to discriminate against them when students tried to enter
public universities until just this year. We'll see if they actually do away
with additional testing for graduates of foreign schools in Japan.
> (but in France, it's logical they do as the State
> is supposed to pay for education of citizens and residents' kids ).
Japan is not that way. The government wants control over what is taught in
public schools.
> Japanese kids that don't study, don't do the homework are not forced, and
> they are allowed to go as far as the end og highschool, even further. . You
> told that yourself. They are not even forced to attend a school.
> Yesterday, I was talking about a student a friend wanted to "abandon" me.
> That girl is 14, she has the level of a 6 yr old in Japanese. She lived a
> few years in gaikoku, and since then,doesn't go to school. She studies
> languages, and a few subjects the parents selected in private lessons. She
> doesn't learn nihongo. She is not an isolated case.
And such a girl, if she does not have some condition to prevent her from
learning, is choosing to alienate herself. But the young people I refer to are
the ones who follow trends, and choose to ignore their own language and
traditions, while there are foreigners who are foreign in nothing but name, but
are discriminated against, such as "Koreans" and "Chinese" who've been here
since perhaps 1910, maybe since they were born, and know nothing but Japan.
Rafael Caetano
> Please cc, come on back and tell me how irrelevant
> language and culture are to nationality.
The funny thing is that all this discussion (between Eric and cc)
started with a misconception. Namely, that to be fluent in Japanese
you need to "understand 100% of the Japanese culture". Nonsense.
Speaking a language fluently means being able to speak it naturally,
"smoothly", without unnatural pauses, etc. I know many people who
speak fluent Japanese but who don't understand "100% of Japanese
culture", whatever that means.
Rafael Caetano
Michael Cash
belched the alphabet and kept on going with:
Bingo.
How much correspondence is there between what constitutes "Japanese
culture" between a Japanese of 91 and of 19?
cc
"Eric Takabayashi" <eta...@yahoo.co.jp> wrote in message
>O one would be alienating their Japan born and raised
> children, if they did not teach them Japanese.
I've said the contrary ?
> It does not seem to bother you that there are French people who are good
only
> for the countryside, the factory or the kitchen, and not as able to be a
> greater part of society.
I'm sorry for all the kids raised by idiot parents.
But, in fact, it's very unlikely the kids that go to "regional language" and
"international" schools don't learn French. Nothing prevents them. And if
they get a good level in one language, and in the basic subjects. it's not
that hard to study in the "second" language later. Most of them do it.
I have met the kids of my English teacher, they always went to international
schools and studied only in English, she spoke only English to them and her
husband, so he'd never talk French to them as all the conversations were in
English. Those kids that did learn French at home or at school speak like
normal educated French people, with more vocabulary and maturity than the
average teenager. They probably had no major problem to pass the tests
necessary to enter French university after a year of preparation.
>Perhaps they are deserving of more, or would be more
> aware of their rights, if they could only speak the language the majority
> spoke.
Whether is the interest of children to be educated in the "language of the
majority" or their "mother tongue" is a controversial question. Common sense
tells you it's more convenient and useful to learn the majority language.
But when you look at stats about failure/success of students , you'll see
that the failure rates are much more important for those not receiving
education in their mother tongue.
Probably the best would be giving those children a complete bilingual
education, at least until the end of highschool.
> > Schools in other languages are allowed as well, the only difference is
they
> > don't receive public money
>
> And it was policy to discriminate against them when students tried to
enter
> public universities until just this year.
I know, but Japanese system to enter universities have always been a bit
strange, I never understood why didn't just ask them to pass the JPLT + the
same exam as others.
In France, there is national exam you need to pass to enter any university.
Anybody is allowed to sit for that exam (from the age of 16, I think). But
if you studied in an international school with the American system, you have
little chances to pass it, not because of the French, but because of
differences of curriculum in other subjects (a friend that did it said that
for him, the maths were the hardest ! ). So you need to do 1 year of
preparation school to do it.
[
Japan is not that way. The government wants control over what is taught in
> public schools.
In France too, they do a sort of control. It's total for public schools and,
there are several sorts of private schools, many of them have a "contract"
with the State, that means they accept to teach 80% of the curriculum of
national education (general subjects), and are free for the rest (the
languages, additional cultural or religious teaching). Other schools do
absolutely what they want, and get no State money. But Gaelic schools, I
have heard, get money from the Region and the towns. And kids can also
receive personal scholarship if their situation makes they need to attend
non-contract private schools.
If a school is too weird (run by a strange sect, etc), that's not even a
question of money. It is closed by the police after a judge decides it. For
that, I'm pretty sure they control more than Japanese state (that couldn't
care less if the equivalent of AUM ran a chain of primary school).
> And such a girl, if she does not have some condition to prevent her from
> learning, is choosing to alienate herself. But the young people I refer to
are
> the ones who follow trends, and choose to ignore their own language and
> traditions,
I don't say they are right to do that, but it's possible they learn
something else, more useful (for that girl, no, she loses her time with tea
ceremony and other silly hobbies, while she can't even read the books about
it).
Well there are teenagers like that in your country too, no ?
>while there are foreigners who are foreign in nothing but name, but
> are discriminated against, such as "Koreans" and "Chinese" who've been
here
> since perhaps 1910, maybe since they were born, and know nothing but
Japan.
Well, be fair. Today, in 2003, the 2nd/3rd/4th generation zainichi can take
Japanese nationality. If they decide not to take it, they are Korean or
Chinese, so they should at least have a basic knowledge of a Korean or a
Chinese dialect language...or they are ignoring their own language as the
other idiots.
CC
Eric Takabayashi
> Eric Takabayashi <eta...@yahoo.co.jp> wrote in message news:<3FA4DCBB...@yahoo.co.jp>...
> > Please cc, come on back and tell me how irrelevant
> > language and culture are to nationality.
>
> The funny thing is that all this discussion (between Eric and cc)
> started with a misconception. Namely, that to be fluent in Japanese
> you need to "understand 100% of the Japanese culture". Nonsense.
Or that fluency was an either or issue.
Precisely.
Eric Takabayashi
Apparently not much. Precisely.
For example, young people including working adults, are having increasing trouble even using the
simplified kanji system or properly conjugating verbs and using even standard Japanese, not to
mention honorifics or humble speech. Do young Japanese need to wear kimono or do tea ceremony? No,
but they do need to use and understand their own language to interact.
Chris Kern
>The funny thing is that all this discussion (between Eric and cc)
>started with a misconception. Namely, that to be fluent in Japanese
>you need to "understand 100% of the Japanese culture". Nonsense.
>Speaking a language fluently means being able to speak it naturally,
>"smoothly", without unnatural pauses, etc. I know many people who
>speak fluent Japanese but who don't understand "100% of Japanese
>culture", whatever that means.
I think that few, if any, native Japanese speakers could be said to
understand "100% of Japanese culture". Would even 50% be possible?
I'm not sure.
-Chris
cc
"Michael Cash" <mike...@sunfield.ne.jp> wrote in message
> >The funny thing is that all this discussion (between Eric and cc)
> >started with a misconception.
There is no discussion with Eric without misconception !
>>Namely, that to be fluent in Japanese
> >you need to "understand 100% of the Japanese culture". Nonsense.
You need such a definition to prove it's "impossible for foreigners" to
learn nihongo.
Eric made huge efforts to avoid telling what made Japanese such a special
language.
> >Speaking a language fluently means being able to speak it naturally,
> >"smoothly", without unnatural pauses, etc. I know many people who
> >speak fluent Japanese but who don't understand "100% of Japanese
> >culture", whatever that means.
>
> Bingo.
>
> How much correspondence is there between what constitutes "Japanese
> culture" between a Japanese of 91 and of 19?
-----Eric mode on
The old man was well educated, in good old time school systeme, he knows
100% of his culture. If the 19 yr old is not a chapatsu punk, he should now
100% of Japanese culture too.
Japanese culture is eternal, fixed forever.
-----Eric mode off
I suppose 15% at the best. How do you measure culture ? In degree Farenheit
?
When I was losing time in the linguistic department of my uni, I talked a
lot with a teacher whose hobby was comparing the vocabulary corpus used by
that or that sort of person in spoken language (you know they put micros to
record people during days and list all the words, then make stats). If I
remember well, in France, where the language is supposed to be kept in a
stable state by rigid institutions*, an average 90 yr old (my grand-father)
shares 25 % of his words with an average 15 yr old (my cousin.). Idem for
grammar structures.
Now guess what corpus of vocabulary is taught nowadays by Japanese teachers
of "furansugo"...
* At primary school, I studied grammar and spelling in books written in the
30's. So I can spell very well the words I never use.
CC
Eric Takabayashi
> "Eric Takabayashi" <eta...@yahoo.co.jp> wrote in message
>
> >O one would be alienating their Japan born and raised
> > children, if they did not teach them Japanese.
>
> I've said the contrary ?
Oh, so you do care about people assimilating into mainstream society to some
degree?
> > It does not seem to bother you that there are French people who are good
> only
> > for the countryside, the factory or the kitchen, and not as able to be a
> > greater part of society.
>
> I'm sorry for all the kids raised by idiot parents.
You consider such people to be idiots?
> But, in fact, it's very unlikely the kids that go to "regional language" and
> "international" schools don't learn French. Nothing prevents them. And if
> they get a good level in one language, and in the basic subjects. it's not
> that hard to study in the "second" language later. Most of them do it.
It is you who are claiming how French citizens including those you personally
know, do not speak even "two words of French". I didn't know you also
considered such acquaintances to be idiots.
> I have met the kids of my English teacher, they always went to international
> schools and studied only in English, she spoke only English to them and her
> husband, so he'd never talk French to them as all the conversations were in
> English.
Yes, that would be irresponsible, if one meant to live long term in a foreign
country.
> Those kids that did learn French at home or at school speak like
> normal educated French people, with more vocabulary and maturity than the
> average teenager. They probably had no major problem to pass the tests
> necessary to enter French university after a year of preparation.
>
> >Perhaps they are deserving of more, or would be more
> > aware of their rights, if they could only speak the language the majority
> > spoke.
>
> Whether is the interest of children to be educated in the "language of the
> majority" or their "mother tongue" is a controversial question. Common sense
> tells you it's more convenient and useful to learn the majority language.
> But when you look at stats about failure/success of students , you'll see
> that the failure rates are much more important for those not receiving
> education in their mother tongue.
It is a much simpler matter in Japan, where they do have a national language
which almost all people are now expected to understand, read or speak.
They've also discovered in the US, that integrating people like Spanish
speaking students over just a few years, shows greater promise than having them
rely on Spanish a much longer time while their academic standards (testing done
in English) fall, or expecting teachers to speak every foreign language (even
50, 60 or more unique languages) spoken in each school.
Japanese schools sometimes kindly provide interpreters to each foreign language
speaking student. They'll see how impractical it is, when more foreigners from
a variety of countries begin to appear.
> Probably the best would be giving those children a complete bilingual
> education, at least until the end of highschool.
International schools in Japan, for some reason, seem to have shown better
linguistic results, than attempts at bilingual education for Spanish speakers
in the US.
> > > Schools in other languages are allowed as well, the only difference is
> they
> > > don't receive public money
> >
> > And it was policy to discriminate against them when students tried to
> enter
> > public universities until just this year.
>
> I know, but Japanese system to enter universities have always been a bit
> strange, I never understood why didn't just ask them to pass the JPLT + the
> same exam as others.
If Japan keeps the entrance exam system, why not have students of international
schools take the same exams as usual Japanese, period? Either people are judged
to be eligible to enter the Japanese universities, in Japanese, or they are
not. Students going to regular Japanese schools don't have to prove the
academic standards of their schools with such preliminary tests. (Those who
drop out of school or don't attend senior high school also need to take a
special test to prove their academic ability, requiring extra study.)
Mastering tea ceremony or other traditional Japanese art or craft, can prove
quite useful, and provide a living for a lifetime. I've known people who didn't
attend high school, who learned more practical skills such as cooking or
crafting things with their hands. Then there are of course, people like the
sumo wrestlers, martial artists, entertainers, and farmers. I would have
nothing against my children turning their backs on a high school or university
education, IF they acquired such skills and could support themselves as adults.
> while she can't even read the books about
> it).
> Well there are teenagers like that in your country too, no ?
Not really. America is not one of those countries where young people learn a
trade instead of pursuing a formal education. People barely in their teens who
are successful in the IT industry are some obvious exceptions. Young people
without an education at school or on their own are pretty much limiting
themselves.
> >while there are foreigners who are foreign in nothing but name, but
> > are discriminated against, such as "Koreans" and "Chinese" who've been
> here
> > since perhaps 1910, maybe since they were born, and know nothing but
> Japan.
>
> Well, be fair. Today, in 2003, the 2nd/3rd/4th generation zainichi can take
> Japanese nationality.
Yes, they can. It has been claimed on this group that about half of Koreans
have done so. But about half have also not done so, including people who have
not been allowed to do so for various, sometimes petty reasons, such as when
applicants used to be demanded to adopt "approved" Japanese kanji or take on
Japanese sounding names.
But since Japan is one of those countries which basically demands applicants to
give up their foreign nationality upon naturalization, people such as Koreans
may choose not to naturalize. I don't want to naturalize either. It's natural
that such people cannot run for political office perhaps, but it is no reason
for them to be discriminated against as when racists lash out over North Korean
government actions, assaulting girls in Korean dress, setting off bombs outside
Korean association offices, showing up in the hundreds to bitch out people
going on and off a North Korean ferry, or calling Koreans supporters of the Kim
regime and its terrorism, which is the kind of discrimination I am referring
to.
> If they decide not to take it, they are Korean or
> Chinese, so they should at least have a basic knowledge of a Korean or a
> Chinese dialect language...or they are ignoring their own language as the
> other idiots.
Foreigners are not idiots not to study their ethnic traditions or language. But
it would be irresponsible to expect to be accepted in mainstream society
without knowing some of that mainstream culture or language.
Eric Takabayashi
> You need such a definition to prove it's "impossible for foreigners" to
> learn nihongo.
It's not.
> Eric made huge efforts to avoid telling what made Japanese such a special
> language.
It's not "special", but it's what the vast majority of people in Japan need to
communicate with each other.
We didn't talk about whether or not Japanese was special or what was special
about it.
> > >Speaking a language fluently means being able to speak it naturally,
> > >"smoothly", without unnatural pauses, etc. I know many people who
> > >speak fluent Japanese but who don't understand "100% of Japanese
> > >culture", whatever that means.
> >
> > Bingo.
> >
> > How much correspondence is there between what constitutes "Japanese
> > culture" between a Japanese of 91 and of 19?
>
> -----Eric mode on
>
> The old man was well educated, in good old time school systeme, he knows
> 100% of his culture.
No he doesn't.
> If the 19 yr old is not a chapatsu punk, he should now
> 100% of Japanese culture too.
No, he doesn't.
> Japanese culture is eternal, fixed forever.
No, it isn't. But brown hair, short skirts, loose socks, phone mail and Louis
Vuitton are not what are referred to by traditional Japanese culture. Youth
fads can change in a matter of months, not last for decades or centuries.
> -----Eric mode off
>
> I suppose 15% at the best. How do you measure culture ? In degree Farenheit
> ?
For example, by how the people speak or behave.
> When I was losing time in the linguistic department of my uni, I talked a
> lot with a teacher whose hobby was comparing the vocabulary corpus used by
> that or that sort of person in spoken language (you know they put micros to
> record people during days and list all the words, then make stats). If I
> remember well, in France, where the language is supposed to be kept in a
> stable state by rigid institutions*, an average 90 yr old (my grand-father)
> shares 25 % of his words with an average 15 yr old (my cousin.). Idem for
> grammar structures.
Tsk tsk. So despite their efforts, France is losing their language and young
people, just like the people fear. That is a pity.
Eric Takabayashi
I am sure it is not possible for an average human being, as we are not
walking encyclopedias, computers or libraries.
But there must be for example, some Japanese equivalent of _The New
Dictionary of Cultural Literacy: What Every American Needs to Know_ (but
note even such volumes are called "thumnails", "lists" or a"basic
reference") which people can strive for.
cc
"Eric Takabayashi" <eta...@yahoo.co.jp> wrote in message
> Tsk tsk. So despite their efforts, France is losing their language and
young
> people, just like the people fear. That is a pity.
Yeah, France is losing a lot. But not "despite", but "because" of that
stubborness that maintained outdated curriculum instead of teaching the
youth how to read/write in today's language.
CC
cc
"Eric Takabayashi" <eta...@yahoo.co.jp> wrote in message
> _The New
> Dictionary of Cultural Literacy: What Every American Needs to Know_
Pret-a-penser one size fits all.
In Japanese, that's called nihonjinron. I've been seen the 2004 editions had
just arrived in bookstores.
CC
Eric Takabayashi
You want the French language revised? What about the language and culture
being Anglicized or Americanized?
Eric Takabayashi
> "Eric Takabayashi" <eta...@yahoo.co.jp> wrote in message
>
> > _The New
> > Dictionary of Cultural Literacy: What Every American Needs to Know_
>
> Pret-a-penser one size fits all.
No validity to it? Modern Americans can do without even an acquaintance with
simple references to literary works five centuries or two thousand years old,
if not actual knowledge itself? Is it not foreigners who claim Americans do not
know or respect enough of the world outside themselves, or are ignorant of the
lessons of history?
> In Japanese, that's called nihonjinron. I've been seen the 2004 editions had
> just arrived in bookstores.
Of what? Imidas and the like? Or do you mean trendy works like _Baka no Kabe_?
cc
"Eric Takabayashi" <eta...@yahoo.co.jp> wrote in message
> You want the French language revised?
You revise a law. A language evoluates whatever governement does.
I was talking about the problem of a national education system that
maintains, for 100% of the youth, a curriculum designed for 20%.
Litterature (most classics and litterature history) fills all the French
language curriculum after junior hishschool, while 80% of the teenagers
would need more practice of writing, reading, understanding, etc, of
contemporean language. I find it sad that there are adults not able to write
"efficiently" an email or a letter, give a phone call properly, to a bank or
a possible employer.
Never having read anything from Proust is not a problem, people can always
buy books and read them when they are older.....if they can read.
>What about the language and culture
> being Anglicized or Americanized?
French is little influenced by English, the loan words that last are not
numerous, and not more numerous than 50 or 100 years ago.
And there is neither "Anglicization" nor "Americanization", but a general
excess of consumerism that can be worrying.
Like in many countries, there are people that give game boys and frozen
pizzas and quiches to their kids instead of taking care of them, etc.
Do Americans know Lucky Luke and Johnny Halliday ? At least Vernon Sullivan
? You've found them in you dictionary of American culture ?
CC
cc
"Eric Takabayashi" <eta...@yahoo.co.jp> wrote in message
> > > _The New
> > > Dictionary of Cultural Literacy: What Every American Needs to Know_
> >
> > Pret-a-penser one size fits all.
>
> No validity to it?
I finds that boring when everybody reads the same books, and really painful
when everybody reads the same digests of the same books. Like when there
were only a few TV channels, and all the town had seen the same shows,
films, series and news.
>Modern Americans can do without even an acquaintance with
> simple references to literary works five centuries or two thousand years
old,
> if not actual knowledge itself?
Yes. Reference without knowledge is talking out of your ass. No problem that
a person is completely ignorant about litterature, but is an expert in music
and botanic or computers and cooking.
The people that can say 2 words about any subject, but don't have anything
they can talk about during hours must have a very sad life.
>Is it not foreigners who claim Americans do not
> know or respect enough of the world outside themselves, or are ignorant of
the
> lessons of history?
>
> > In Japanese, that's called nihonjinron. I've been seen the 2004 editions
had
> > just arrived in bookstores.
>
> Of what? Imidas and the like? Or do you mean trendy works like _Baka no
Kabe_?
I don't know the authors or titles...Simply those pocket books that list all
the events and fashion trends retained as "important" the last year and
explain what decent people should think about it. About Ayu Hamasaki that is
a self-made genius nobody should ignore, the North-Korean hostages that are
the most important international issue...etc, Just what you hear everywhere
from the mouth of people that can't recognize an Ayu from other TV fish and
are not very sure Seoul is in South or North Korea.
CC
Declan Murphy
<snip>
> Like in many countries, there are people that give game boys and frozen
> pizzas and quiches to their kids instead of taking care of them, etc.
Frozen quiches? Good Lord, what am I missing out on?
--
A hand on the bush is worth two birds on the arm.
cc
"Declan Murphy" <declan...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> cc wrote:
> <snip>
> > Like in many countries, there are people that give game boys and frozen
> > pizzas and quiches to their kids instead of taking care of them, etc.
>
> Frozen quiches? Good Lord, what am I missing out on?
Nothing. Just examples to show why I don't think there is/ever was a real
americanization in France. My compatriots don't need American influence to
invent the same sort of sub-culture as Sepponians, in parallele.
Beyond the apparences, the 2 societies have always been very different. And
that's not changing.
CC