On Chikan for John
Eric Takabayashi
like to see the rest of these, I'll send them to you.
Pardon the site's horrible formatting.
A survey in Osaka reports 71 percent of respondents
were victims, similar to what I have seen must have
been Tokyo on the front page of a national newspaper.
The survey I read about, as I said, I believe focused
on young women, teens and twenties.
A government survey of unknown sample population or
location (but the article implies a national problem)
showed 47 percent of respondents have been victims.
During my search, but I do not have the quote handy,
reported only two percent of respondents sought justice
in the courts, whatever that means. Maybe two percent
of victims went to police, or maybe two percent of
claimed incidents made it to court.
"Compared to other sex offences I think that women as
well as men don't have much of a notion that this is a
crime," says Sergeant Kakisako. "There's a tendency
amongthese men to convince themselves that if a woman
doesn't say anything, she's enjoying it. The best thing
the victims can do for themselves is to speak up."
Are you beginning to believe there is a problem greater
than you will ever see or know, John? Are you ready to
try looking for the real Japan yet?
The Tokyo commuter who groped his way to celebrity
Date: 04-06-1997; Publication: Independent on Sunday;
Author: RICHARD LLOYD PARRY
[snip]
For the victims there is, of course, nothing funny
about it at all. Three years ago, a survey by women's
groups in Osaka found that 71 per cent of women
canvassed had been groped and that for many the effects
were lasting. Victims found themselves toonervous to
travel by train, and fearful of crowds. One student
stopped going to university after being molested
morning after morning, and feelings of shame and
self-disgust were encouraged by the fact that the most
successful groping is so subtle as tobe completely
deniable.
In the past, Japan's police did little to tackle the
problem, although that has changed with a concerted
campaign in Tokyo. The capital's two biggest stations,
Tokyo Central and Shinjuku, have permanent chikan
counselling corners, staffed by femaleofficers. For one
week earlier this year 70 officers were mobilised on
the Saikyo Line, the city' s most notorious, where half
of all reported groping incidents take place. Thirty of
them patrolled the carriages in plain clothes, and
bagged an average ofsix people a day. Of these a third
were charged, and the rest were released after their
misbehaviour had been reported to their families,
schools or employers.
"There are two types of chikan," says Yumi Kakisako, a
female police sergeant who works at the counselling
corner in Shinjuku station. "Some of them do it half by
stupid accident - when they're caught once, the shame
is so great that they'll never do itagain. But then
there are those who get a real pleasure from it, the
compulsive chikan, and they are harder to cure: we see
the same faces again and again." The Metropolitan
Police Agency is compiling figures on the number and
nature of chikan offencesfor use in future campaigns.
[snip]
Preliminary results suggest chikan range from
schoolboys to retired men and appear to have nothing in
common in terms of social background or employment
status. Their victims are equally diverse: although
most are between 15 and 25, the attraction theyhold for
their assailants seems to have little to do with what
they wear or the way they look.
The biggest unanswered question is why epidemic groping
should be such a peculiarly Japanese problem. Rush hour
trains in the cities certainly do become
claustrophobically crowded, but not so much more so
than in other countries. Samu Yamamoto puts itdown to
"the crazy attitude which Japanese men have to sex" -
and the ambiguous, covert nature of commuter groping
has its advantages in a society which is often content
to ignore what it cannot see, and where the pressure to
maintain outward harmonyoften makes it easier to suffer
in silence than speak out.
Indeed, the biggest factor may be the reluctance of
Japanese women to make a fuss. "Compared to other sex
offences I think that women as well as men don't have
much of a notion that this is a crime," says Sergeant
Kakisako. "There's a tendency amongthese men to
convince themselves that if a woman doesn't say
anything, she's enjoying it. The best thing the victims
can do for themselves is to speak up."
RICHARD LLOYD PARRY, The Tokyo commuter who groped his
way to celebrity. , Independent on Sunday, 04-06-1997,
pp 12.
RIGHTS-JAPAN: GROPING PROMPTS "WOMEN-ONLY" TRAIN CARS
Date: 05-04-2001; Publication: Inter Press Service
English News Wire; Author: STAFF
[snip]
A government survey on the issue last year showed that
47 percent of the respondents have experienced rail
molestation. In another survey taken seven years ago by
the Organization to Prevent Sexual Violence, a women's
group based in Osaka, many respondents expressed fear
and depression after being groped. Young victims
replied they could not trust men after their
experience. Some said they had to give up their jobs
because they developed an extreme fear of riding
trains. The survey also revealed only two percent of
molested women sought justice by taking their molesters
to Court. Most of the time, the victims just kept quiet
because they were frightened or ashamed. Others noted
that their fellow commuters offered no help.
[snip]
STAFF, RIGHTS-JAPAN: GROPING PROMPTS "WOMEN-ONLY" TRAIN
CARS. , Inter Press Service English News Wire,
05-04-2001
John R. Yamamoto- Wilson
> A survey in Osaka reports 71 percent of respondents
> were victims, similar to what I have seen must have
> been Tokyo on the front page of a national newspaper.
> The survey I read about, as I said, I believe focused
> on young women, teens and twenties.
>
> A government survey of unknown sample population or
> location (but the article implies a national problem)
> showed 47 percent of respondents have been victims.
Hmm. Tricky thing, statistics. Why is there such a big difference between
the two surveys, I wonder? The second one would apparently put Japan women
at *less* risk than their counterparts in the United States (according,
again, to statistics that may or may not be reliable); the second one puts
them at *greater* risk.
> Are you beginning to believe there is a problem greater
> than you will ever see or know, John? Are you ready to
> try looking for the real Japan yet?
I'm pumping it all into my databanks, Eric! Please try to remember that what
upset me and got me going on all this was Ernest's assumption of cultural
superiority (the Japanese "have got a long way to go") and prejudiced view
of Japanese men (for them "chikan is the norm"), and that my agenda all
through has been to challenge the usefulness or appropriateness of such
views, *not* to deny that there is any kind of problem.
Eric continues (quoting, I think, from his online library source):
> The biggest unanswered question is why epidemic groping
> should be such a peculiarly Japanese problem. Rush hour
> trains in the cities certainly do become
> claustrophobically crowded, but not so much more so
> than in other countries. Samu Yamamoto puts itdown to
> "the crazy attitude which Japanese men have to sex"
I beg to differ. Sexual attitudes may play a part in this, and the attitudes
of the men who do it, the women who put up with it without complaining and
the society that lets it happen all need to be examined, but I would cast my
net as wide as possible in looking for causes, rather than trying to pin all
the blame in one place, which might actually *prevent* one from seeing other
possible causes and solutions.
Samu Yamamoto reasons along the same lines as Ernest and, as I say, I don't
think it's terribly helpful.
Just in case you don't pick up on it in the other thread, I reproduce one of
the more constructive exchanges I've had on the subject over the last few
days:
Brett Robson wrote:
>> I have a slightly different take on it. There are the same
>> number of deviants in Japan but no one has ever pulled them
>> into line and they know they will get away with it. Given
>> the same situation, a crowded train, I can't imagine trying
>> That in Australia, the reaction of most Australian women
>> would be "ballistic".
That fits with the way I understand things. In Australia the counterparts of
the Japanese chikan will be finding another (non-"ballistic") outlet. In
South Africa they are raping their victims and then (frequently) murdering
them.
Rather than blaming Japanese men as a whole, or thinking that the percentage
of deviants is - for some congenital reason, or something - very much higher
in Japan than in other countries, it seems to me that what needs to be
tackled are the *circumstances* which allow particular types of abuse to
flourish.
It may be true that the level of crowding in Japanese trains is not
sufficiently different from that in other countries to explain why groping
flourishes but, as I said in the other thread, surely the fact that Japanese
trains, unlike trains in the UK, have no emergency stop cord, provides
illdoers with a golden opportunity?
In response to this idea, Brett wrote:
>> Are you seriously suggesting stopping a train because of someone being
>> touched up? Yes it is serious, but on my line there are over 100 trains
>> between 7 and 9am. Stopping a train for 2 minutes would cause
>> massive problems.
To which I replied:
> Well, yes, I suppose I *am* suggesting that. Doesn't this whole problem
> arise from putting efficiency before humanity in the first place? Let the
> letchers incur the bad vibes from the impatient hordes hurrying to get
> wherever they're going *and* make them pay a fine for holding up the line;
> that should make them think twice!
>
> Although, as a variation on the emergency stop, one could simply
> communicate a message to the driver, who would stop at the next station
> but not open the doors until guards/police were present. That would also
> result in delays, but of a less drastic nature.
I also imagine the people in the train compartment would be a lot more
proactive in identifying offenders and ensuring they were handed over to the
authorities in prompt and efficient manner if they thought that doing so
would speed them on their way to their precious destinations.
Can you see, Eric, that I am not trying to deny the problem, but I am not
going to jump to conclusions about it, either? And blaming Japanese men, in
particular, could be a red herring, distracting people from very real and
practical reforms that could help to solve the situation.
Ryan Ginstrom
"John R. Yamamoto- Wilson" <jo...@rarebooksinjapan.com> wrote in message
news:begqcu$1j5m$1...@kanna.cc.sophia.ac.jp...
> > Although, as a variation on the emergency stop, one could simply
> > communicate a message to the driver, who would stop at the next station
> > but not open the doors until guards/police were present. That would also
> > result in delays, but of a less drastic nature.
>
> I also imagine the people in the train compartment would be a lot more
> proactive in identifying offenders and ensuring they were handed over to
the
> authorities in prompt and efficient manner if they thought that doing so
> would speed them on their way to their precious destinations.
I disagree. I think that if such a system were put in place, women would be
under even more pressure to keep quiet. Rather than all the passengers
blaming the perv for their delay as he is hauled off the train, I see the
perv protesting vehemently and blaming the woman, who of course must be
hauled off along with the perv, and everyone blaming her for mucking up
everyone's commute. They will be thinking that no matter who was wrong, if
she had just shut up they wouldn't all be late for work.
I think it would be better to market some kind of colorless powder that
reacts with sweat to create a brilliant blue dye, which will not come off
without repeated scrubbing with alcohol and steel wool. The woman could
sprinkle a bit of this powder on her private bits, then give that sweaty
little perv a nice sexy smile as he cops his feel.
--
Regards,
Ryan Ginstrom
Eric Takabayashi
> Eric Takabayashi wrote:
>
> > A survey in Osaka reports 71 percent of respondents
> > were victims, similar to what I have seen must have
> > been Tokyo on the front page of a national newspaper.
> > The survey I read about, as I said, I believe focused
> > on young women, teens and twenties.
> >
> > A government survey of unknown sample population or
> > location (but the article implies a national problem)
> > showed 47 percent of respondents have been victims.
>
> Hmm. Tricky thing, statistics. Why is there such a big difference between
> the two surveys, I wonder?
Age group of sample, and location, as I said, and as you would be able to
believe if you read.
> The second one would apparently put Japan women
> at *less* risk than their counterparts in the United States
Of being molested on trains? And why is the US suddenly an issue again? We're
talking Japan.
> (according,
> again, to statistics that may or may not be reliable); the second one puts
> them at *greater* risk.
Fuck John, why is your alleged personal observation, operating with your
current agenda of downplaying criticism of Japan or the severity of abuse of
women, any more trustworthy than the news or government? Why don't I simply
throw out everything you say about what what you believe regarding you are
demonstrably INCAPABLE of seeing on the ONE train you ride on?
> > Are you beginning to believe there is a problem greater
> > than you will ever see or know, John? Are you ready to
> > try looking for the real Japan yet?
>
> I'm pumping it all into my databanks, Eric! Please try to remember that what
> upset me and got me going on all this was Ernest's assumption of cultural
> superiority (the Japanese "have got a long way to go")
I'm not Ernest, and I'm not talking about Ernest. I'm talking about chikan in
Japan.
> and prejudiced view
> of Japanese men (for them "chikan is the norm"), and that my agenda all
> through has been to challenge the usefulness or appropriateness of such
> views, *not* to deny that there is any kind of problem.
You are denying or downplaying it, in every post including this very one, while
bringing up some other issue. If I didn't know any better I'd believe I was
dealing with one of the apologists I usually encounter in real life.
> Eric continues (quoting, I think, from his online library source):
>
> > The biggest unanswered question is why epidemic groping
> > should be such a peculiarly Japanese problem. Rush hour
> > trains in the cities certainly do become
> > claustrophobically crowded, but not so much more so
> > than in other countries. Samu Yamamoto puts itdown to
> > "the crazy attitude which Japanese men have to sex"
>
> I beg to differ. Sexual attitudes may play a part in this, and the attitudes
> of the men who do it, the women who put up with it without complaining and
> the society that lets it happen all need to be examined, but I would cast my
> net as wide as possible in looking for causes, rather than trying to pin all
> the blame in one place, which might actually *prevent* one from seeing other
> possible causes and solutions.
>
> Samu Yamamoto reasons along the same lines as Ernest
He is a confessed chikan. He lectures on chikan. Perhaps he knows something
about offenders like himself that you and I don't, but you are unwilling to
consider, because you have your own prejudice not to believe because you
disagree with it.
> and, as I say, I don't think it's terribly helpful.
What is not helpful is your continued denial with your fingers in your ears.
You are not even interested in looking into an issue you claim to be interested
in, on your own, and THEN reaching your own conclusion anew. No, it doesn't
agree with what you already think you've seen, therefore you refuse to consider
or believe it, and just try to poke it full of holes without investigating.
> Just in case you don't pick up on it in the other thread, I reproduce one of
> the more constructive exchanges I've had on the subject over the last few
> days:
>
> Brett Robson wrote:
>
> >> I have a slightly different take on it. There are the same
> >> number of deviants in Japan but no one has ever pulled them
> >> into line and they know they will get away with it. Given
> >> the same situation, a crowded train, I can't imagine trying
> >> That in Australia, the reaction of most Australian women
> >> would be "ballistic".
>
> That fits with the way I understand things. In Australia the counterparts of
> the Japanese chikan will be finding another (non-"ballistic") outlet. In
> South Africa they are raping their victims and then (frequently) murdering
> them.
>
> Rather than blaming Japanese men as a whole, or thinking that the percentage
> of deviants is - for some congenital reason, or something - very much higher
> in Japan than in other countries,
I make no such claim.
> it seems to me that what needs to be
> tackled are the *circumstances* which allow particular types of abuse to
> flourish.
Why? It is already something that other people (not you) can SEE or EXPERIENCE
now. And they still do not act on it. Why would they hold up maybe thousands of
other passengers and screw up the schedule, drawing public attention, just
because someone touched them?
You are.
> but I am not
> going to jump to conclusions about it, either?
You are. Your conclusion is, what you are hearing is not what you've seen
during ten years in Japan, therefore you cannot agree, nor can you believe that
men as you see around you are capable of committing such abuse, nor women as
you see around you, go silently without some sort of reaction to attract help,
and without seeking you out for help to convince you of the scope of the
problem.
> And blaming Japanese men, in
> particular, could be a red herring,
Why? It is their attitude and actions which cause it. Are you blaming the
victim?
> distracting people from very real and
> practical reforms that could help to solve the situation.
Here's one: teach men not to do it. That might cut down on sexual abuse by men.
Eric Takabayashi
> "John R. Yamamoto- Wilson" <jo...@rarebooksinjapan.com> wrote in message
> news:begqcu$1j5m$1...@kanna.cc.sophia.ac.jp...
> > > Although, as a variation on the emergency stop, one could simply
> > > communicate a message to the driver, who would stop at the next station
> > > but not open the doors until guards/police were present. That would also
> > > result in delays, but of a less drastic nature.
> >
> > I also imagine the people in the train compartment would be a lot more
> > proactive in identifying offenders and ensuring they were handed over to
> the
> > authorities in prompt and efficient manner if they thought that doing so
> > would speed them on their way to their precious destinations.
>
> I disagree. I think that if such a system were put in place, women would be
> under even more pressure to keep quiet. Rather than all the passengers
> blaming the perv for their delay as he is hauled off the train, I see the
> perv protesting vehemently and blaming the woman, who of course must be
> hauled off along with the perv, and everyone blaming her for mucking up
> everyone's commute. They will be thinking that no matter who was wrong, if
> she had just shut up they wouldn't all be late for work.
How streetwise are you again, John?
How understanding are you of the Japanese soul, through your ten years of
observation and all your more than your share experience with people and their
personal problems?
Tell us, John, because if I chose to accept your individual personal experience
or perception as basis of reality (where's Ed?) it seems your ideas of a
solution are not on. Not even I am going to promote cameras on the train on
this thread. The only thing that will be effective is riders radically changing
their attitudes and behavior.
> I think it would be better to market some kind of colorless powder that
> reacts with sweat to create a brilliant blue dye, which will not come off
> without repeated scrubbing with alcohol and steel wool.
EXCELLENT!
> The woman could
> sprinkle a bit of this powder on her private bits,
And her legs, and her butt, and her upper torso and any other area she
considers personal.
> then give that sweaty
> little perv a nice sexy smile as he cops his feel.
What we'll get is blue women's privates.
But you've got an excellent idea. Let's require men boarding the trains to
apply a colorless hand cream to their hands (easily washable after they reach
their destinations) that would REACT to the invisible chemical on the women if
they come into contact, and leave the men's hands (only) with a difficult to
remove, brilliant stain.
Declan Murphy
> Ryan Ginstrom wrote:
>>I think it would be better to market some kind of colorless powder that
>>reacts with sweat to create a brilliant blue dye, which will not come off
>>without repeated scrubbing with alcohol and steel wool.
>
> EXCELLENT!
<snip>
> What we'll get is blue women's privates.
This would be a interesting new variation on the "Beckham" I presume?
--
"You call Donald Rumsfeld and tell him our sorry asses are ready to go
home." - Private First Class Matthew O'Dell
tee hee
Michael Cash
<jo...@rarebooksinjapan.com> belched the alphabet and kept on going
with:
>>
>> Although, as a variation on the emergency stop, one could simply
>> communicate a message to the driver, who would stop at the next station
>> but not open the doors until guards/police were present. That would also
>> result in delays, but of a less drastic nature.
Pardon my technical nitpicking, but the drivers aren't the ones who
operate the doors. Those are the conductors.
Although I seem to recall a story about a train line (JR East?) hiring
a female conductor a few years ago. The railroad, in what appeared to
be an attempt to allay passengers' fears, announced that the trains
she worked on would also have a male conductor on board to operate the
doors.
Maybe Ernest had a point. Maybe Japan *does* have "a long way to go".
--
Michael Cash
"There was a time, Mr. Cash, when I believed you must be the most useless
thing in the world. But that was before I read a Microsoft help file."
Prof. Ernest T. Bass
Mount Pilot College
Michael Cash
<declan...@hotmail.com> belched the alphabet and kept on going
with:
>Eric Takabayashi wrote:
>> Ryan Ginstrom wrote:
>
>>>I think it would be better to market some kind of colorless powder that
>>>reacts with sweat to create a brilliant blue dye, which will not come off
>>>without repeated scrubbing with alcohol and steel wool.
>>
>> EXCELLENT!
><snip>
>> What we'll get is blue women's privates.
>
>This would be a interesting new variation on the "Beckham" I presume?
This seems to be addressing the symptom rather than the disease. Isn't
it possible that at least part of the problem stems from *men's* blue
privates?
John Yamamoto-Wilson
> I disagree. I think that if such a system were put in place, women would
be
> under even more pressure to keep quiet. Rather than all the passengers
> blaming the perv for their delay as he is hauled off the train, I see the
> perv protesting vehemently and blaming the woman, who of course must be
> hauled off along with the perv, and everyone blaming her for mucking up
> everyone's commute. They will be thinking that no matter who was wrong, if
> she had just shut up they wouldn't all be late for work.
Do trains in the US have an emergency cord? Trains in the UK have *always*
had an emergency cord, and trains in Japan (as far as I know) have *never*
had one. And do you know, in all the years I used British Rail, the
emergency cord never got pulled even *once*? Nor do I even recall anyone I
know recounting an experience of the emergency cord being pulled. Eric will
no doubt sneer at my once again drawing on personal experience rather than
falling back on [lies, damned lies and] statistics, but it's a bit like
America's atom bombs, Ryan - a *deterrent*. It puts people off.
Forget chikan for a moment, and just consider. Packing passengers into
compartments like lumps of meat, units in transit, with no control over
their destiny between boarding and alighting is just not a quality service.
Give people that little bit more control over their environment, give them
the option of blowing the whistle when things are getting out of hand. The
likely result is that the option will rarely be used, but people will feel
that much more secure just knowing it is *there*, and miscreants will have
that much more incentive to think twice.
If a spin-off from that is that once every few months someone pulls the cord
it might be worth it, don't you think?
> I think it would be better to market some kind of colorless powder that
> reacts with sweat to create a brilliant blue dye, which will not come off
> without repeated scrubbing with alcohol and steel wool. The woman could
> sprinkle a bit of this powder on her private bits, then give that sweaty
> little perv a nice sexy smile as he cops his feel.
That's an amusing idea, Ryan. It might even have potential, as a way for
women, individually and collectively, to strike back. But, with all respect,
surely - as a USian - you can advance the even more practical and suitable
solution adopted in your country long ago, to wit, tear up the track and
make the b*****s go by car?
John Yamamoto-Wilson
> How streetwise are you again, John?
Ooh, *sarcasm*!
> How understanding are you of the Japanese soul, through your ten years of
> observation and all your more than your share experience with people and
their
> personal problems?
Oooh! More *sarcasm*!
> Tell us, John, because if I chose to accept your individual personal
experience
> or perception as basis of reality (where's Ed?) it seems your ideas of a
> solution are not on.
Ooh! Sarcasms *and* put-downs! You really have a way with you, don't you?
(BTW, who's Ed?)
Eric, I'm open to discussion, I'm perfectly willing to consider this issue
from any and every angle, but you are not going to get anywhere by simply
trying to railroad me (no pun intended) into agreeing with you.
You seem to want to base your view of the "real" world on statistics derived
from surveys. Fine. Go ahead. I'm prepared to take statistics into account,
but I've got more sense than to assume that they necessarily have that much
correlation with the "real" world.
Here is someone who knows what he's talking about discussing statistics in
another, related field (child abuse):
_________________________________________________________________________
Statistics on rates of child abuse and neglect are controversial.
All statistics on the incidence and prevalence of child abuse and neglect
are disputed by some experts. [snip]
Even the most objective scientific research is imperfect. At least one or
two methods used in any study must be chosen by researchers based on
opinions and judgements, not just facts and logic. The objectively best
methods available may still have limitations.
[snip]
Emotions and moral commitments influence everyone's reasoning and judgement
to some extent.
Any experts who claim to be without bias are fooling themselves or trying to
fool you.
[snip]
The media often report on statistics, good and bad, without providing the
information we need to evaluate their quality and meaning.
The media seldom tell us:
How was the problem defined?
What questions were asked?
What methods were used to seek answers?
Who was studied or asked the questions?
[snip]
Finally, even when the necessary information is provided, most people simply
don't have the tools to think critically about statistics.
(http://www.jimhopper.com/abstats/)
_________________________________________________________________________
What this means in practice, Eric, is that *cautious* people, people who
want to make sure that the numbers they are bandying around are at least
*roughly* commensurate with that "real" world you think you know so much
about, end up saying things like:
"Studies of the general population of adults show that anywhere from 6 to
63% of females were sexually abused as children."
(http://www.menweb.org/throop/abuse/studies/child-ma.html; figures for the
US; working on this topic a few months ago I came up with even more widely
divergent estimates - ome of them was "between 10% and 80%".)
That's why I'm not going to go overboard for your front-page spread in the
Yomiuri (or whatever it was), Eric, and no amount of sarcastic put-downs is
going to change my mind on that.
Eric Takabayashi
> Do trains in the US have an emergency cord? Trains in the UK have *always*
> had an emergency cord, and trains in Japan (as far as I know) have *never*
> had one. And do you know, in all the years I used British Rail, the
> emergency cord never got pulled even *once*? Nor do I even recall anyone I
> know recounting an experience of the emergency cord being pulled. Eric will
> no doubt sneer at my once again drawing on personal experience rather than
> falling back on [lies, damned lies and] statistics, but it's a bit like
> America's atom bombs, Ryan - a *deterrent*. It puts people off.
Put people off from using them, because thousands of people could get pissed at
the person who did it? Precisely the point some are trying to make with you,
but you just don't get it. Too many (not all) victims DO NOT WANT attention,
and too many (not all) witnesses, if any, DO NOT WANT TO BE INVOLVED.
WHAT MAKES YOU THINK A GIRL WITH A HAND UP HER SKIRT WILL TIE UP AN ENTIRE
TRAIN LINE AND THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE WITH SOMEWHERE TO GO, MUCH LESS DURING PEAK
TIMES, WHEN SHE WON'T TELL NOW?
> Forget chikan for a moment, and just consider. Packing passengers into
> compartments like lumps of meat, units in transit, with no control over
> their destiny between boarding and alighting is just not a quality service.
> Give people that little bit more control over their environment, give them
> the option of blowing the whistle when things are getting out of hand. The
> likely result is that the option will rarely be used, but people will feel
> that much more secure just knowing it is *there*, and miscreants will have
> that much more incentive to think twice.
Think twice about what?
> If a spin-off from that is that once every few months someone pulls the cord
Why would they do that?
> it might be worth it, don't you think?
Worth what?
Declan Murphy
> Ooh! Sarcasms *and* put-downs! You really have a way with you, don't you?
> (BTW, who's Ed?)
You lost your copy of Hitch-hikers Guide to FJLIJ again? Eric remains
the rather bemused, clueless soul he has always been; talk to him about
heroin trials and legalising crack; Ed-well, Ed is just this guy, you
know; you would be well advised to don a pair of Joo Janta 200
Super-Chromatic Peril Sensitive Sunglasses because you are headed smack
dab into big trouble indeed.
John Yamamoto-Wilson
attention,
> and too many (not all) witnesses, if any, DO NOT WANT TO BE INVOLVED.
But it might be a welcome innovation FOR THOSE WHO DO WANT ATTENTION OR DO
WANT TO BE INVOLVED.
> WHAT MAKES YOU THINK A GIRL WITH A HAND UP HER SKIRT WILL TIE UP AN ENTIRE
> TRAIN LINE AND THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE WITH SOMEWHERE TO GO, MUCH LESS DURING
PEAK
> TIMES, WHEN SHE WON'T TELL NOW?
SHE MIGHT WANT TO OUT THE AGGRSSOR, AND IF SHE DOESN'T SOMEONE ELSE MIGHT.
> > If a spin-off from that is that once every few months someone pulls the
cord
>
> Why would they do that?
You mean if you were on a train with an emergency cord and you saw a crime
taking place you wouldn't? Shame on you! And I thought you had a social
conscience...
> > it might be worth it, don't you think?
>
> Worth what?
Oh, wake up, do!
John Yamamoto-Wilson
> You lost your copy of Hitch-hikers Guide to FJLIJ again? Eric remains
> the rather bemused, clueless soul he has always been; talk to him about
> heroin trials and legalising crack; Ed-well, Ed is just this guy, you
> know; you would be well advised to don a pair of Joo Janta 200
> Super-Chromatic Peril Sensitive Sunglasses because you are headed smack
> dab into big trouble indeed.
Thanks for the warning! I'll pull out a pair from my stash right now!
--
John
http://rarebooksinjapan.com
Eric Takabayashi
> Eric Takabayashi wrote:
>
> > How streetwise are you again, John?
>
> Ooh, *sarcasm*!
No, I'm being serious. You do not know.
> > How understanding are you of the Japanese soul, through your ten years of
> > observation and all your more than your share experience with people and
> their
> > personal problems?
>
> Oooh! More *sarcasm*!
No, quite serious. You just don't know.
> > Tell us, John, because if I chose to accept your individual personal
> experience
> > or perception as basis of reality (where's Ed?) it seems your ideas of a
> > solution are not on.
>
> Ooh! Sarcasms *and* put-downs!
No, what I actually believe about you, because you do not know.
> You really have a way with you, don't you?
> (BTW, who's Ed?)
The man who determines reality.
> Eric, I'm open to discussion,
No you are not.
> I'm perfectly willing to consider this issue
> from any and every angle,
You are not.
> but you are not going to get anywhere by simply
> trying to railroad me (no pun intended) into agreeing with you.
Then look into it outside your little one train car world with individual women
you watch over, your damn self, find a new conclusion, and get back to us when
you want to tell us about the truth.
> You seem to want to base your view of the "real" world on statistics derived
> from surveys.
They are more reliable than you and your one train car.
> Fine. Go ahead. I'm prepared to take statistics into account,
No you are not.
> but I've got more sense than to assume that they necessarily have that much
> correlation with the "real" world.
Right, because what you see in your one train car, when you are not focusing on
one woman, is the real world.
> Here is someone who knows what he's talking about discussing statistics in
> another, related field (child abuse):
We are talking chikan on Japanese trains. I could bring you a story on reliable
statistics, and you'd ignore that, too.
>
> _________________________________________________________________________
> Statistics on rates of child abuse and neglect are controversial.
>
> All statistics on the incidence and prevalence of child abuse and neglect
> are disputed by some experts. [snip]
>
> Even the most objective scientific research is imperfect.
So why is John watching women on one train car the one who determines reality?
> At least one or
> two methods used in any study must be chosen by researchers based on
> opinions and judgements, not just facts and logic. The objectively best
> methods available may still have limitations.
>
> [snip]
>
> Emotions and moral commitments influence everyone's reasoning and judgement
> to some extent.
And so with you, because you do not want to believe, which would require a
revamp of your world view. You said it yourself.
> Any experts who claim to be without bias are fooling themselves or trying to
> fool you.
>
> [snip]
>
> The media often report on statistics, good and bad, without providing the
> information we need to evaluate their quality and meaning.
>
> The media seldom tell us:
>
> How was the problem defined?
>
> What questions were asked?
>
> What methods were used to seek answers?
>
> Who was studied or asked the questions?
>
> [snip]
Answer these regarding yourself, John. What you are doing is doing your own
observation in your one train car, supporting your own view.
> Finally, even when the necessary information is provided, most people simply
> don't have the tools to think critically about statistics.
>
> (http://www.jimhopper.com/abstats/)
> _________________________________________________________________________
>
> What this means in practice, Eric, is that *cautious* people, people who
> want to make sure that the numbers they are bandying around are at least
> *roughly* commensurate with that "real" world you think you know so much
> about, end up saying things like:
I don't believe it unless I see it myself, by John.
Please tell us when you are omniscient and see all cases of train molestation,
to bring us the truth of the matter John, because what you are waiting for is
large numbers of women to be molested while you watch, and victims to willingly
come to you to tell you their stories. It isn't going to happen, and it doesn't
mean there's not a serious problem.
Explain to us why "women only" carriages are necessary, John, when the problem
is so small you've only seen what happened after an incident (maybe) happen
once?
> "Studies of the general population of adults show that anywhere from 6 to
> 63% of females were sexually abused as children."
> (http://www.menweb.org/throop/abuse/studies/child-ma.html; figures for the
> US; working on this topic a few months ago I came up with even more widely
> divergent estimates - ome of them was "between 10% and 80%".)
>
> That's why I'm not going to go overboard for your front-page spread in the
> Yomiuri (or whatever it was), Eric, and no amount of sarcastic put-downs is
> going to change my mind on that.
Because you refuse to believe that except what you see on your one train car,
or that which agrees with what you already believe.
It is you who are the ignorant one.
Eric Takabayashi
> > but you just don't get it. Too many (not all) victims DO NOT WANT
> attention,
> > and too many (not all) witnesses, if any, DO NOT WANT TO BE INVOLVED.
>
> But it might be a welcome innovation FOR THOSE WHO DO WANT ATTENTION OR DO
> WANT TO BE INVOLVED.
Explain to us how this will improve the situation, when people can say "chikan"
and grab the man to report him to the police with a train full of people
watching, like they do thousands of times per year, right now.
> > WHAT MAKES YOU THINK A GIRL WITH A HAND UP HER SKIRT WILL TIE UP AN ENTIRE
> > TRAIN LINE AND THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE WITH SOMEWHERE TO GO, MUCH LESS DURING
> PEAK
> > TIMES, WHEN SHE WON'T TELL NOW?
>
> SHE MIGHT WANT TO OUT THE AGGRSSOR, AND IF SHE DOESN'T SOMEONE ELSE MIGHT.
They can simply say "chikan" and detain him for police, just like they do now,
when they feel like it, thousands of times per year.
> > > If a spin-off from that is that once every few months someone pulls the
> cord
> >
> > Why would they do that?
>
> You mean if you were on a train with an emergency cord and you saw a crime
> taking place you wouldn't?
I can say "chikan" and call the police on the phone right now, just like
happens thousands of times per year, without causing a system wide public
nuisance affecting tens of thousands.
> Shame on you! And I thought you had a social
> conscience...
It was you who have witnessed and done nothing. Stick that experience in your
reality, John.
> > > it might be worth it, don't you think?
> >
> > Worth what?
>
> Oh, wake up, do!
Get your head out of your ass.
John Yamamoto-Wilson
not I am in denial, which I spare the gentle reader by snipping
mercilessly].
Let's just get one thing clear. If I wanted to hold up a role model from the
websites I've visited as a result of trying to check information in this
discussion it would be this:
____________________________________________________________________
TOKYO—Fed up with being groped on trains or leered at by older men,
17-year-old Akie Takeda decided last year that she would help raise
consciousness among young people to curb sexual harassment and exploitation
in Japan.
"It's not easy in a country where even adults are not aware of the need to
protect the rights of children," says the junior high school student. "The
fight is against deep-rooted sexual prejudices in our society," adds Takeda,
who wants to make a full-time job of improving the lives of children once
she finishes college.
(http://www.ipsnews.net/alert/countries/japan1.html)
____________________________________________________________________
Now, she gets a double thumbs-up from me any day, and so do the thousand or
so others with her. But the statistics on that site aren't worth the
cyberspace they're written on. As I just posted:
> even when the necessary information is provided, most people simply
> don't have the tools to think critically about statistics.
(http://www.jimhopper.com/abstats/)
The people who wrote that article don't have the tools, and you *certainly*
don't! What did Declan just call you? A "rather bemused, clueless soul". I
think you're a step or two up from that (but then it's my nature to take a
positive view of things), but I am getting tired of being constantly
identified by you as the enemy, as per:
> > Eric, I'm open to discussion,
>
> No you are not.
>
> > I'm perfectly willing to consider this issue
> > from any and every angle,
>
> You are not.
[snip]
> > I'm prepared to take statistics into account,
>
> No you are not.
It is rather hard to communicate with someone who just won't stop going for
my jugular. What would it take to stop you? If I said, OK, I've got eyes but
I won't use them (I'll just put 100% trust in the statistics on the front
page of the Yomiuri Shinbun), I've got friends, neighbours, colleagues and
confidants, but I won't listen to what they say (I'll just put 100% trust in
the statistics on the front page of the Yomiuri Shinbun), I've got 50 years
of lifetime and experience and intuitions about human nature, but I won't
use any of it (I'll just put 100% trust in the statistics on the front page
of the Yomiuri Shinbun), will *that* keep you happy???!!
Or would you still just keep going for my jugular?
Somehow, I think you probably would.
John Yamamoto-Wilson
> It was you who have witnessed and done nothing. Stick that experience in
> your reality, John.
Yes, I have difficulty living with myself when I think about it. If only I'd
made a citizen's arrest (do they have those in Japan?) and frogmarched him
off to the police station...
Me: Someone said this man's a sukebe.
Policeman: Oh, yes, sir. Who said that, now?
Me: A woman.
Policeman: I see. And where is she?
Me: I don't know. She got off the train and disappeared.
Policeman: And did you witness the incident yourself, sir?
Me: No, I didn't see anything. She wasn't actually that close to me, and the
train was pretty full.
Policeman: Ah, well! In that case it's cut and dried! Thank you very much.
The nights I lie awake wrestling with my conscience, thinking, "If only...".
;-)
John Yamamoto-Wilson
>
> Get your head out of your ass.
Now, now! Don't sink to invective. You only demonstrate the paucity of your
powers of rhetoric when you do that.
John Yamamoto-Wilson
> Explain to us how this will improve the situation, when people can say
"chikan"
> and grab the man to report him to the police with a train full of people
> watching, like they do thousands of times per year, right now.
When you say "us" do you mean you and your cat?
Eric Takabayashi
> Eric said [a lot more stuff demonstrating he is in denial about whether or
> not I am in denial, which I spare the gentle reader by snipping
> mercilessly].
>
> Let's just get one thing clear. If I wanted to hold up a role model from the
> websites I've visited as a result of trying to check information in this
> discussion it would be this:
>
> ____________________________________________________________________
> TOKYO窶認ed up with being groped on trains or leered at by older men,
> 17-year-old Akie Takeda decided last year that she would help raise
> consciousness among young people to curb sexual harassment and exploitation
> in Japan.
>
> "It's not easy in a country where even adults are not aware of the need to
> protect the rights of children," says the junior high school student. "The
> fight is against deep-rooted sexual prejudices in our society," adds Takeda,
> who wants to make a full-time job of improving the lives of children once
> she finishes college.
> (http://www.ipsnews.net/alert/countries/japan1.html)
> ____________________________________________________________________
>
> Now, she gets a double thumbs-up from me any day, and so do the thousand or
> so others with her. But the statistics on that site aren't worth the
> cyberspace they're written on.
Just like I said, you take what you want, and reject what you do not believe,
based on yourself.
If you are not going to pay heed to say, UNICEF, medical professionals, or
university professors, I'd like to know who other than yourself you would
believe.
Whom you would believe despite saying something you do not agree with, and
against what you yourself witness, I must add.
> As I just posted:
>
> > even when the necessary information is provided, most people simply
> > don't have the tools to think critically about statistics.
> (http://www.jimhopper.com/abstats/)
>
> The people who wrote that article don't have the tools, and you *certainly*
> don't!
UNICEF, a gynecologist, and a university professor, among others, don't have
the tools, you say.
Did you see them and their lack of tools to determine that for yourself?
> What did Declan just call you? A "rather bemused, clueless soul". I
> think you're a step or two up from that (but then it's my nature to take a
> positive view of things), but I am getting tired of being constantly
> identified by you as the enemy,
It is your denial which is tiresome. Again, you are spending your time seeking
only that which will support your argument, not that which will educate you in
your alleged interest to learn the truth.
Come back when you find the truth outside yourself.
> as per:
>
> > > Eric, I'm open to discussion,
> >
> > No you are not.
> >
> > > I'm perfectly willing to consider this issue
> > > from any and every angle,
> >
> > You are not.
> [snip]
> > > I'm prepared to take statistics into account,
> >
> > No you are not.
>
> It is rather hard to communicate with someone who just won't stop going for
> my jugular.
I am not going for your jugular. It is you who refuse to listen.
> What would it take to stop you?
You realizing what you have NOT seen on one train car for ten years or the
shortage of women coming to you with problems do not represent the lack of said
problem the rest of Japan.
> If I said, OK, I've got eyes but I won't use them
Not won't. You DON'T use them, and have admitted so yourself.
> (I'll just put 100% trust in the statistics on the front
> page of the Yomiuri Shinbun),
No.
> I've got friends, neighbours, colleagues and
> confidants,
Irrelevant, unless they know the real (outside themselves) Japan. They could be
like you.
> but I won't listen to what they say (I'll just put 100% trust in
> the statistics on the front page of the Yomiuri Shinbun),
No.
> I've got 50 years
> of lifetime and experience and intuitions about human nature,
And you still don't know why people wouldn't shut down the train line at peak
times for a hand up the skirt.
> but I won't use any of it
If your solution for preventing chikan is any indication.
> (I'll just put 100% trust in the statistics on the front page
> of the Yomiuri Shinbun), will *that* keep you happy???!!
No. Get off your ass, and outside your own life, and look for the truth, like
you claim you want to find. And come back when you find that truth.
> Or would you still just keep going for my jugular?
>
> Somehow, I think you probably would.
No. What I want you to do is find the truth.
Eric Takabayashi
That you consider this a joke is appalling.
Eric Takabayashi
> > > Oh, wake up, do!
> >
> > Get your head out of your ass.
>
> Now, now! Don't sink to invective. You only demonstrate the paucity of your
> powers of rhetoric when you do that.
It is you who demonstrate your ignorance with your so called knowledge of
pickpockets, behavior of chikan and victims, and your so called solutions,
based on your train ride.
Eric Takabayashi
> Eric wrote:
>
> > Explain to us how this will improve the situation, when people can say
> "chikan"
> > and grab the man to report him to the police with a train full of people
> > watching, like they do thousands of times per year, right now.
>
> When you say "us" do you mean you and your cat?
No, any and all people who better understand the true human nature involved
in such a crime, better than you do.
And I'm still waiting. Why is visibly delaying tens of thousands of
passengers with somewhere to go a better method than identifying a chikan and
reporting them, to take them off the train and hand them to the authorities
as is done right now? Would you have stopped the train line because you saw
guys passing wallets? That I'd like to see.
Eric Takabayashi
Oh, and what are your tools, please? Please describe to us the scientific method
you use, which you demand to be convinced of something you don't see in your
admitted sheltered world. Do you pass out surveys to women at random? Could we see
your questions and definitions for review? What is the size of your sample to
give us a margin of error?
Don't hurry back.
John Yamamoto-Wilson
What I consider a joke is that you think I could take action against a man
when I have no evidence, no witnesses, and the victim herself has walked
off. I'm not making light of what happened, I'm just taking the mickey out
of you, for being so absurd.
Seriously, then, Eric. what would you have had me do?
Eric Takabayashi
> > That you consider this a joke is appalling.
>
> What I consider a joke is that you think I could take action against a man
> when I have no evidence, no witnesses, and the victim herself has walked
> off.
ONLY because you and everyone else did not act.
> I'm not making light of what happened,
Then don't make up funny scenarios and add smilies.
> I'm just taking the mickey out of you, for being so absurd.
It is you who are absurd. You who claim to see and know so much, so much that
you would judge the rest of the "real" Japan based upon it, yet have admitted
to missing what allegedly occurred before you at least three times.
> Seriously, then, Eric. what would you have had me do?
"I"? No, you could have done what YOU are suggesting:
YOU could have stopped the train, detaining woman and suspect, till
everything was sorted out.
Nevermind the nuisance it would have definitely caused everyone on the train,
and on every train behind it.
John Yamamoto-Wilson
> It is you who demonstrate your ignorance with your so called knowledge of
> pickpockets, behavior of chikan and victims, and your so called solutions,
> based on your train ride.
OK. So, (1) I have to deny any other evidence, and accept your version of
"reality", (2) At the same time as accepting that the risk to my child (in
particular) is unacceptably high I have nevertheless to stay in Japan, and
(3) I'm not to imagine for one moment that methods that have been used in
the UK since the dawn of railways are of any use at all.
Basically, the message I'm getting from you is, "Shut up and agree with me
or else I'll abuse and mock and insult you!"
Do you have children, Eric? And do you treat them the same way? I sincerely
hope not.
Night, night, now! Got another busy day, tomorrow - must get some beauty
sleep; it's been....*interesting*!
John Yamamoto-Wilson
> university professors, I'd like to know who other than yourself you would
> believe.
Sorry, you're right. I overstated my case there. I should have said *some*
of those statistics are pretty clearly unreliable, instead of just rejecting
all of them.
For instance:
"Shocking statistics compiled by researchers indicate that three out of four
junior and senior high school students surveyed in Tokyo have experienced
solicitation for sex by older men"
is followed by:
"Statistics show that almost all high school girls engage in some form of
sexual titillation with older men for money or promises of presents"
So 70% have been solicited (presumably some said no), and yet almost all are
engaging in a form of prostitution? It doesn't take a university professor
to see that that doesn't add up.
> What I want you to do is find the truth.
Right. Thank you. And if I see the need to be very careful about statistics
in my pursuit of the truth, will you just accept that, and stop jumping down
my throat about it?
Eric Takabayashi
> > If you are not going to pay heed to say, UNICEF, medical professionals, or
> > university professors, I'd like to know who other than yourself you would
> > believe.
>
> Sorry, you're right. I overstated my case there. I should have said *some*
> of those statistics are pretty clearly unreliable, instead of just rejecting
> all of them.
You mean that you simply cannot believe it. What SCIENTIFIC basis do you have
for knowing they are unreliable, without investigation and review, or
repetition and repeatability?
> For instance:
>
> "Shocking statistics compiled by researchers indicate that three out of four
> junior and senior high school students surveyed in Tokyo have experienced
> solicitation for sex by older men"
Which is a claim they were propositioned, I would guess.
> is followed by:
>
> "Statistics show that almost all high school girls engage in some form of
> sexual titillation with older men for money or promises of presents"
>
> So 70% have been solicited (presumably some said no), and yet almost all are
> engaging in a form of prostitution? It doesn't take a university professor
> to see that that doesn't add up.
High figures aside, please recall that in the real Japan, the girls also
solicit the men.
Don't tell me you don't know that either.
So you know a dozen Chinese prostitutes (was that you?) who try to solicit you.
Does this need for them to solicit men en masse suggest that perhaps not enough
men solicit them (or at least, they'd like to be the ones to choose)?
Do you figure?
> > What I want you to do is find the truth.
>
> Right. Thank you. And if I see the need to be very careful about statistics
> in my pursuit of the truth, will you just accept that, and stop jumping down
> my throat about it?
It is YOU who explicitly claims to be so interested in finding out, for the
sake of your wife and child, so concerned that you do not even know how you can
continue to live in the country for to be wrong would be so fearsome,
yet you are spending your time refuting and disbelieving what is put before
you, instead of going out on your own to get educated.
What are you expecting?
Eric Takabayashi
> Eric Takabayashi wrote:
>
> > It is you who demonstrate your ignorance with your so called knowledge of
> > pickpockets, behavior of chikan and victims, and your so called solutions,
> > based on your train ride.
>
> OK. So, (1) I have to deny any other evidence, and accept your version of
> "reality",
No.
> (2) At the same time as accepting that the risk to my child (in
> particular) is unacceptably high I have nevertheless to stay in Japan, and
Explicitly, and repeatedly, NO!
> (3) I'm not to imagine for one moment that methods that have been used in
> the UK since the dawn of railways are of any use at all.
John, why is what works in the UK supposed to work in Japan, when you criticize
us so strongly for our foreign views?
Also, would you believe Japanese human nature is not British human nature? It
certainly is not what you are expecting of victims.
> Basically, the message I'm getting from you is, "Shut up and agree with me
> or else I'll abuse and mock and insult you!"
Read the above, and I'll tell you again. No. What I want is for you to find the
truth you claim to be so concerned in finding for the sake of your wife,
children, worldview, and continued life in Japan, and come back and tell us
about what occurs outside your train car.
> Do you have children, Eric?
Two.
> And do you treat them the same way?
No. Timeouts work on them. I don't know what stops you.
My two and four year old are also probably intelligent enough to know there is
a larger world outside what they can see which they do NOT know about. For
example, they found out what a Raspberry Frappucino in a tumbler was when I
brought it home.
> I sincerely hope not.
I should say I hope your children were not raised by you, lest they grow up to
be Japanese war apologists, because they have not seen the atrocities or
counted the dead.
> Night, night, now! Got another busy day, tomorrow - must get some beauty
> sleep; it's been....*interesting*!
My day will be busier than yours.
Eric Takabayashi
Ah, had to read it twice.
Tell me John, if you caught this one. First paragraph refers to junior high and
senior high. Second paragraph is high school only.
If, for example (I do not believe it), all high school girls performed sexual
favors ONLY to men who solicited them, rendering the figure in the second
paragraph,
AND
Men seeking sexual favors proposition all high school girls, but only half of
junior high school girls,
What figures would those provide John?
Also, three out of four is not 70%.
No snipping this time. Let everyone see what we have both written.
Tell us again how much you know about statistics and what a keen mind you have for
noticing such details.
John Yamamoto-Wilson
> I should say I hope your children were not raised by you, lest they grow
up to
> be Japanese war apologists, because they have not seen the atrocities or
> counted the dead.
Not much danger of that, I think, Eric. You evidently don't know me.
> > Night, night, now! Got another busy day, tomorrow - must get some beauty
> > sleep; it's been....*interesting*!
>
> My day will be busier than yours.
Spoken like a true Protestant!
John Yamamoto-Wilson
> Tell me John, if you caught this one. First paragraph refers to junior
high and
> senior high. Second paragraph is high school only.
I struggle with the language, Eric, and do my best with dictionaries, which
assure me that "high school" is the American English term for what we call
"secondary school" (= students from 11 to 18). If "high school" does not
mean "junior high" and "senior high" combined then, again, I stand
corrected, and will kick the dictionary around the room in indignation.
All I have to do now, it seems, is accept that the statistic is true (i.e.,
that nearly every high school girl is practising a form of prostitution) and
we are in agreement on this matter.
Thank you for explaining it all so carefully to me.
Kevin Wayne Williams
> Eric wrote:
>
>
>>Tell me John, if you caught this one. First paragraph refers to junior
>
> high and
>
>>senior high. Second paragraph is high school only.
>
>
> I struggle with the language, Eric, and do my best with dictionaries, which
> assure me that "high school" is the American English term for what we call
> "secondary school" (= students from 11 to 18). If "high school" does not
> mean "junior high" and "senior high" combined then, again, I stand
> corrected, and will kick the dictionary around the room in indignation.
Start kicking. Different school systems use slightly different
boundaries. Elementary school runs from kindergarten to either fifth or
sixth grade. A "middle school" is either sixth, seventh, and eighth
grade or just seventh and eighth. A "junior high" is seventh, eighth,
and ninth, or just seventh and eighth. A "high school" is ninth through
twelfth, or tenth through twelfth. "High school" and "senior high" are
the same.
KWW
Curt Fischer
To be pedantic: I think I have seen some ninth-grade containing "middle
schools".
--
Curt Fischer
John R. Yamamoto- Wilson
> > Start kicking. Different school systems use slightly different
> > boundaries. Elementary school runs from kindergarten to either fifth or
> > sixth grade. A "middle school" is either sixth, seventh, and eighth
> > grade or just seventh and eighth. A "junior high" is seventh, eighth,
> > and ninth, or just seventh and eighth. A "high school" is ninth through
> > twelfth, or tenth through twelfth. "High school" and "senior high" are
> > the same.
and Curt Fischer added:
> To be pedantic: I think I have seen some ninth-grade containing "middle
> schools".
Thanks. I knew there must be a simple explanation!
Just to make it even worse, we don't talk about "grades" in British English,
so whenever people say something like "my son's in the eighth grade" I have
to say, "Oh, really? Um, how old is he?" So, unfortunately, your
explanations are lost on me!
I tracked down "grade" meaning "class" or "level" at school in the
*supplement* to the Oxford English Dictionary (being an obscure americanism
it didn't make it into the original 12 volume set!), but it didn't say what
age corresponded to what grade, and I can't kick it around because it's not
my property; it belongs to the department! (Plus it's weighty enough to do
more damage to my foot than I to it.)
Collins dictionary was better; it says the first grade starts at five, and
from there I guess it's just pure maths (sorry - *math*!).
Kevin Wayne Williams
>
> Collins dictionary was better; it says the first grade starts at five, and
> from there I guess it's just pure maths (sorry - *math*!).
Except that children typically enter first grade when they are *6*.
KWW
Kevin Gowen
>
>>> Start kicking. Different school systems use slightly different
>>> boundaries. Elementary school runs from kindergarten to either
>>> fifth or sixth grade. A "middle school" is either sixth, seventh,
>>> and eighth grade or just seventh and eighth. A "junior high" is
>>> seventh, eighth, and ninth, or just seventh and eighth. A "high
>>> school" is ninth through twelfth, or tenth through twelfth. "High
>>> school" and "senior high" are the same.
>
> and Curt Fischer added:
>
>> To be pedantic: I think I have seen some ninth-grade containing
>> "middle schools".
>
> Thanks. I knew there must be a simple explanation!
>
> Just to make it even worse, we don't talk about "grades" in British
> English, so whenever people say something like "my son's in the
> eighth grade" I have to say, "Oh, really? Um, how old is he?" So,
> unfortunately, your explanations are lost on me!
>
> I tracked down "grade" meaning "class" or "level" at school in the
> *supplement* to the Oxford English Dictionary (being an obscure
> americanism it didn't make it into the original 12 volume set!),
But I am afraid that it did. From the OED:
grade, n.
4c. A class at school in relation to advancement. (Cf. GRADED ppl. a. 2.) N.
Amer.
1835 Southern Lit. Messenger I. 275 In the first and second grades boys and
girls are schooled together. 1852 Indiana Hist. Soc. Publ. III. 619
Qualified to teach in any of the grades, from the primary to the grammar
school. 1903 A. B. HART Actual Govt. Amer. Conditions 543 Many cities have
public kindergartens, which take children of 4 to 5 years of age in hand and
teach them simple beginnings. The next division is usually the primary,
extending over 3 to 6 years, followed by about 4 years of the grammar
school; these two systems taken together are often called simply ‘the
grades’. 1904 O. H. LANG in Forum (U.S.) Oct. 268 Polite conduct and usages
might advantageously be taught in the grades and in the high school. 1906 C.
A. MCMURRY (title) Course of study in the eight grades. 1909 Springfield
(Mass.) Weekly Republican 18 Feb. 2 In the British isles the classes are
designated standards and these are supposed to correspond to our grades.
1934 W. SAROYAN Daring Young Man (1935) 75 A little girl named Maxine, in
the third grade. 1967 Atlantic Monthly Apr. 102/2 My plan after being passed
out of Grade VIII, King Edward School, was to go with my best girlfriend.
1968 Globe & Mail (Toronto) 3 Feb. 8/4 Ontario..will have public French
education from Grade 1 through university. 1970 Publ. Amer. Dial. Soc. 1968
L. 50 Attended Memphis public schools. Completed fifth grade.
> but
> it didn't say what age corresponded to what grade, and I can't kick
> it around because it's not my property; it belongs to the department!
> (Plus it's weighty enough to do more damage to my foot than I to it.)
You should kick your copy of the OED because it is broked.
> Collins dictionary was better; it says the first grade starts at
> five, and from there I guess it's just pure maths (sorry - *math*!).
KWW brought you up to speed on this point. However, I did start first grade
at five due to my October birthday.
--
Kevin Gowen
"The US economy accounts for about one-third of global GDP-greater than
the next four countries combined (Japan, Germany, the United Kingdom
and France)."
- "Advancing the National Interest: Australia's Foreign and Trade
Policy White Paper", Australian Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade
John R. Yamamoto- Wilson
and
> > from there I guess it's just pure maths (sorry - *math*!).
>
> Except that children typically enter first grade when they are *6*.
AARRGGHHH!!!!!! I think I've just broken my toe!
John R. Yamamoto- Wilson
> > I tracked down "grade" meaning "class" or "level" at school in the
> > *supplement* to the Oxford English Dictionary (being an obscure
> > americanism it didn't make it into the original 12 volume set!),
Kevin Gowen carried pedantry to its ultimate (and *still* managed to get it
wrong!) by pointing out:
> But I am afraid that it did. From the OED:
> grade, n.
> 4c. A class at school in relation to advancement. (Cf. GRADED ppl. a. 2.)
N.
> Amer.
...and then quoting the whole damned entry [snipped]!
I hope you didn't *type* all that in, Kevin; surely even you don't have that
much amount of time to waste. Perhaps, then, you subscribe to the online
version? Or maybe you *did* type it, from the second edition (20-volume
set)?
But I stipulated the 12-volume edition, Kevin, and in the 12-volume edition
there is no 4.c entry under "grade, n.". In fact, it isn't even listed as
"grade, n."; it's listed as "Grade [...], sb." (i.e., "substantive").
Give me credit for knowing my books, old boy and, as ever, thanks for
playing!
Kevin Gowen
Your dictionary is still broked.
Ed
"Eric Takabayashi" <eta...@yahoo.co.jp> wrote in message
news:3F0C0AA8...@yahoo.co.jp...
> Tell us, John, because if I chose to accept your individual personal
experience
> or perception as basis of reality (where's Ed?)
How would I really know where I am?
Ed
"Declan Murphy" <declan...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3F0C3564...@hotmail.com...
> John Yamamoto-Wilson wrote:
>
> > Ooh! Sarcasms *and* put-downs! You really have a way with you, don't
you?
> > (BTW, who's Ed?)
>
> You lost your copy of Hitch-hikers Guide to FJLIJ again? Eric remains
> the rather bemused, clueless soul he has always been; talk to him about
> heroin trials and legalising crack; Ed-well, Ed is just this guy, you
> know; you would be well advised to don a pair of Joo Janta 200
> Super-Chromatic Peril Sensitive Sunglasses because you are headed smack
> dab into big trouble indeed.
moi?