Gifu bombing anniversary?
Ernest Schaal
anniversary of Gifu being carpet bombed in WWII. It shows a photograph that
shows the town leveled as if it were Hiroshima. Anyone know the history of
all this?
Eric Takabayashi
Do you remember this guy?
Too bad the Japanese link doesn't work now.
Hmm. It seems Hiroshima's gaijin taxi driver has been found.
You can get some hits, including America's version of what happened when they
bombed Japanese civilian cities. Interesting that in the "Casualties" section
of one such site, they mentioned only what seemed to be American casualties,
such as an American crew member suffering a wound to the leg. Oooooh.
Steve Sundberg
<eta...@yahoo.co.jp> wrote:
> [snip]
>
>You can get some hits, including America's version of what happened when they
>bombed Japanese civilian cities. Interesting that in the "Casualties" section
>of one such site, they mentioned only what seemed to be American casualties,
>such as an American crew member suffering a wound to the leg. Oooooh.
Is that anything like how your average Japanese expresses regret for
attacking Pearl Harbor, or for the "rapes" of Nanking and Manila.
Funny that. <grin>
Michael Cash
belched the alphabet and kept on going with:
I wonder....if all the people who instigated WWII knew we'd still be
harping, bitching, castigating, finger-pointing, second guessing, etc.
etc. even into the next century, with no letup in sight....do you
think they mighta said, "Oh hell, if you're going to make such a
fucking everlasting fuss over it then just forget I even mentioned
it!"
These were, by and large, married men. Why couldn't they take the
lessons they almost certainly must have learned from their married
lives and apply it to their work in the office at Acme World
Dominators, PLC?
--
Michael Cash
"There was a time, Mr. Cash, when I believed you must be the most useless
thing in the world. But that was before I read a Microsoft help file."
Prof. Ernest T. Bass
Mount Pilot College
Ryan Ginstrom
"Ernest Schaal" <esc...@max.hi-ho.ne.jp> wrote in message
news:BB2B7991.41B4%esc...@max.hi-ho.ne.jp...
Contrary to what one might think today, just about every major (and even
bum-f**ked in the case of Gifu) city outside of Kyoto was pretty much
flattened by bombing.
--
Regards,
Ryan Ginstrom
Eric Takabayashi
Even Fukuyama was carpet bombed, with (they include injuries) a casualty count
of 80,000. Lack of media or public attention and a focus on the A-bombings,
particularly of Hiroshima, has contributed to this ignorance or apathy among
Japanese. Many even forget the Tokyo firebombing.
Ernest Schaal
Thanks for the links.
Ernie
in article 3F056B68...@yahoo.co.jp, Eric Takabayashi at
eta...@yahoo.co.jp wrote on 7/4/03 8:56 PM:
John W.
>
> I wonder....if all the people who instigated WWII knew we'd still be
> harping, bitching, castigating, finger-pointing, second guessing, etc.
> etc. even into the next century, with no letup in sight....do you
> think they mighta said, "Oh hell, if you're going to make such a
> fucking everlasting fuss over it then just forget I even mentioned
> it!"
>
way things have turned out. Kind of like the story of the old Imperial
Army soldier found decades after the war that, upon arriving in Japan
and taking a good look around, found it very difficult to believe that
Japan lost the war.
> These were, by and large, married men. Why couldn't they take the
> lessons they almost certainly must have learned from their married
> lives and apply it to their work in the office at Acme World
> Dominators, PLC?
>
Because they were married Japanese men. For starters, I know precious
few men that are able to learn anything useful from their married
lives. And the typical Japanese husband I know (at least the older
generation) doesn't think they need to learn anything from their
marriage, because they're happy and by God their wives are too.
John W.
Ryan Ginstrom
"Ernest Schaal" <esc...@max.hi-ho.ne.jp> wrote in message
news:BB2C1F19.4299%esc...@max.hi-ho.ne.jp...
> Eric,
>
> Thanks for the links.
>
Hmm, I read the link, and I think he mistakes ignorance for conspiracy. At
the time there was no doubt that the US's policy was "total war," as were
the policies of the other participants in the war.
After the Soviets developed nuclear weapons, the idea of total war became
obsolete, and in retrospect people even question the effectiveness of
bombing civilians at destroying a country's will to wage war. So it was not
only evil, but a failed policy to boot. But at the time, it was the accepted
way of waging war, and if I might add, not one that the Americans invented.
Finally, in Japan's case industry was largely spread among the civilian
populations, in small mom & pop subcontracting shops, as it is today. So
destroying Japan's industrial capacity actually would have required
flattening its population centers, although I would say that the main
objective of these raids was terror.
--
Regards,
Ryan Ginstrom
masayuki yoshida
As far as the majority of contemporary Japanese is a post-war
generation, using the word 素orget' is not appropriate. You mean
failing to recall person's real experience by the term?
Masayuki
Kaz
The more funny thing and the surprising thing is that you consider
Eric as "average Japanese" while he is an American citizen raised in
America. It's really surprising that a silly racist like you still
exist in this globe.
Now I see how those Japanese-Americans are treated awful in America.
AFAIK, those Jodo-Shinshu Japanese-Americans that belonged to Aidu
Wakamatsu clan are the opponents of the imperial Tokyo regime that did
atrocities. Those who had put them into the concentration camp
cooperated to the brutal imperial Tokyo regime. They didn't know what
they were doing.
Michael Cash
alphabet and kept on going with:
>dee...@mm.com (Steve Sundberg) wrote in message news:<3f059fcc...@news1.mm.com>...
>> On Fri, 04 Jul 2003 20:56:25 +0900, Eric Takabayashi
>> <eta...@yahoo.co.jp> wrote:
>>
>> > [snip]
>> >
>> >You can get some hits, including America's version of what happened when they
>> >bombed Japanese civilian cities. Interesting that in the "Casualties" section
>> >of one such site, they mentioned only what seemed to be American casualties,
>> >such as an American crew member suffering a wound to the leg. Oooooh.
>>
>> Is that anything like how your average Japanese expresses regret for
>> attacking Pearl Harbor, or for the "rapes" of Nanking and Manila.
>> Funny that. <grin>
>
>The more funny thing and the surprising thing is that you consider
>Eric as "average Japanese" while he is an American citizen raised in
>America.
What is even more funny and surprising is that you think Steve
considers Eric "average Japanese". Where did you get that idea? He
never said or intimated any such thing.
Eric Takabayashi
> Thanks for the links.
I forgot to tell you the search terms. Just look up "Gifu bombing" etc. Now that
you know the date, you can use that, too.
Did you notice the page describing Gifu's peace museum and those comic books?
http://www.godhatesjanks.org/historical.html
"The Sky Burned"
I'm sure the old folks in Gifu would like to tell you as much as the people in
Hiroshima tell us.
Eric Takabayashi
> > in article 3F056B68...@yahoo.co.jp, Eric Takabayashi at
> > > Do you remember this guy?
> > >
> > > http://tinyurl.com/g0su
>
> "Ernest Schaal" <esc...@max.hi-ho.ne.jp> wrote in message
> news:BB2C1F19.4299%esc...@max.hi-ho.ne.jp...
> > Eric,
> >
> > Thanks for the links.
>
> Hmm, I read the link, and I think he mistakes ignorance for conspiracy.
I believe the average Americans and Japanese are not being told such things for
a reason. In the case of Japan, it is to keep the Hiroshima A-bombing at the
head of their victimization. Even the A-bombing of Nagasaki takes back seat.
And in Hiroshima, you will not hear much about the bomb detonating across the
street from the headquarters of the 6th Army, on the grounds of Hiroshima
Castle, or 70% of the casualties being military. There is just vacant land and
a little plaque on the ground to mark the location of the military
headquarters.
No, Japanese cannot be allowed to know too much about those things or why the
war occurred, or they might not feel so much like victims.
And if Americans knew about how their fathers and grandfathers in WWII in cases
weren't behaving much different from the enemy, they might lose their sense of
justice as well. It's pretty obvious that viewers in Japan were getting a lot
more balanced view of what happened to ordinary people in Iraq than what people
in the US did with their flag waving, government mouthpiece news media.
Eric Takabayashi
The Japanese term for not actively telling the young about Japan's suffering during the war is
indeed "forget". Just tonight I was at my children's' nursery school annual summer festival, but
for some reason, "peace" was the theme. Instead of the usual children dancing or fireworks finale,
the children and parents stood in a circle holding hands singing along to some song I've never
heard before saying we are "one world".
Right. One world with war, terrorism, SARS, etc. Then there is Japan which is so safe and
peaceful.
And next month, we'll hear about Hiroshima, and to a much lesser extent, Nagasaki again. Maybe
Koizumi and the Emperor will make some vague speeches about their "remorse" again or the trouble
that occurred in Asia.
John Yamamoto-Wilson
> > Even Fukuyama was carpet bombed, with (they include injuries) a casualty
count
> > of 80,000. Lack of media or public attention and a focus on the
A-bombings,
> > particularly of Hiroshima, has contributed to this ignorance or apathy
among
> > Japanese. Many even forget the Tokyo firebombing.
>
> As far as the majority of contemporary Japanese is a post-war
> generation, using the word 'forget' is not appropriate. You mean
> failing to recall person's real experience by the term?
Perhaps what Eric means is something like "many teachers forget to teach
their students" about such things. I forget what percentage of Japanese
twenty-somethings didn't know that Japan had fought a war on the same side
as Germany and against the United States in a recent survey, but it was
rather depressingly high. And even in this newsgroup there have been
numerous gaffes by Japanese people who clearly have a very hazy idea of what
actually went on in the 1930s and 40s.
Still perhaps that's a tradition in itself - the "floating world" - only now
it's a world of karaoke, pachinko and shopping sprees, and the realities of
history all seem very far away...
Kaz
> On 4 Jul 2003 23:09:11 -0700, k...@ivebeenframed.com (Kaz) belched the
> alphabet and kept on going with:
>
> >dee...@mm.com (Steve Sundberg) wrote in message news:<3f059fcc...@news1.mm.com>...
> >> On Fri, 04 Jul 2003 20:56:25 +0900, Eric Takabayashi
> >> <eta...@yahoo.co.jp> wrote:
> >>
> >> > [snip]
> >> >
> >> >You can get some hits, including America's version of what happened when they
> >> >bombed Japanese civilian cities. Interesting that in the "Casualties" section
> >> >of one such site, they mentioned only what seemed to be American casualties,
> >> >such as an American crew member suffering a wound to the leg. Oooooh.
> >>
> >> Is that anything like how your average Japanese expresses regret for
> >> attacking Pearl Harbor, or for the "rapes" of Nanking and Manila.
> >> Funny that. <grin>
> >
> >The more funny thing and the surprising thing is that you consider
> >Eric as "average Japanese" while he is an American citizen raised in
> >America.
>
> What is even more funny and surprising is that you think Steve
> considers Eric "average Japanese". Where did you get that idea? He
> never said or intimated any such thing.
God informed me that "****berg" kinda people consider so.
Eric Takabayashi
> masayuki yoshida wrote:
>
> > > Even Fukuyama was carpet bombed, with (they include injuries) a casualty
> count
> > > of 80,000. Lack of media or public attention and a focus on the
> A-bombings,
> > > particularly of Hiroshima, has contributed to this ignorance or apathy
> among
> > > Japanese. Many even forget the Tokyo firebombing.
> >
> > As far as the majority of contemporary Japanese is a post-war
> > generation, using the word 'forget' is not appropriate. You mean
> > failing to recall person's real experience by the term?
>
> Perhaps what Eric means is something like "many teachers forget to teach
> their students" about such things. I forget what percentage of Japanese
> twenty-somethings didn't know that Japan had fought a war on the same side
> as Germany and against the United States in a recent survey, but it was
> rather depressingly high.
What is even funnier to me is the people who do not know that Japan LOST the
war. Still common terms such as "shuusen" (end of war) as opposed to "haisen"
(losing the war) do not help. There are many who are offended by the nation
specific US term "V-J Day" but I am not. It's not America's fault that other
Asians were not so intent on liberating themselves.
And then the people who do not even know that Japan had their own (failed)
program to develop the A-bomb, of which the founder of Sony was a part, which
might lead to a bit of understanding of why the US was so desperate to build
and use one first (some believed Japan actually tested one in Korea). Ho boy.
> And even in this newsgroup there have been
> numerous gaffes by Japanese people who clearly have a very hazy idea of what
> actually went on in the 1930s and 40s.
>
> Still perhaps that's a tradition in itself - the "floating world" - only now
> it's a world of karaoke, pachinko and shopping sprees, and the realities of
> history all seem very far away...
Some wonder when the world will stop blaming Japan for the war or colonial
history. I'm sure people won't mind much in two centuries for sure. The US and
UK are getting along alright. Americans don't seem too angry over the more
recent war with Mexico, or action in Grenada either.
Michael Cash
"****berg" kinda people
What the fuck does that mean? Jews? I don't know about Steve, but I
think Morty and Ida might find that remark offensive.
mtfe...@netscape.net
> dee...@mm.com (Steve Sundberg) wrote in message news:<3f059fcc...@news1.mm.com>...
>> On Fri, 04 Jul 2003 20:56:25 +0900, Eric Takabayashi
>> <eta...@yahoo.co.jp> wrote:
>>
>> > [snip]
>> >
>> >You can get some hits, including America's version of what happened when they
>> >bombed Japanese civilian cities. Interesting that in the "Casualties" section
>> >of one such site, they mentioned only what seemed to be American casualties,
>> >such as an American crew member suffering a wound to the leg. Oooooh.
>>
>> Is that anything like how your average Japanese expresses regret for
>> attacking Pearl Harbor, or for the "rapes" of Nanking and Manila.
>> Funny that. <grin>
> The more funny thing and the surprising thing is that you consider
> Eric as "average Japanese" while he is an American citizen raised in
> America. It's really surprising that a silly racist like you still
> exist in this globe.
Actually, it's more amazing how appallingly poor your English is; he is
NOT talking about Mr Kobayashi here.
Go back to your crayon-colouring books and leave the discussions to adults,
OK?
Mike
Eric Takabayashi
mtfe...@netscape.net
> Ryan Ginstrom wrote:
> a reason. In the case of Japan, it is to keep the Hiroshima A-bombing at the
> head of their victimization. Even the A-bombing of Nagasaki takes back seat.
And the people of Nagasaki have been known to resent that.
> And in Hiroshima, you will not hear much about the bomb detonating across the
> street from the headquarters of the 6th Army, on the grounds of Hiroshima
2nd Army. Just a quiblle.
> Castle, or 70% of the casualties being military. There is just vacant land and
> a little plaque on the ground to mark the location of the military
> headquarters.
> No, Japanese cannot be allowed to know too much about those things or why the
> war occurred, or they might not feel so much like victims.
> And if Americans knew about how their fathers and grandfathers in WWII in cases
> weren't behaving much different from the enemy, they might lose their sense of
> justice as well. It's pretty obvious that viewers in Japan were getting a lot
Hunh?
Could you direct me to the non-censored history books that detail the US
treatment of POWs on a mass scale similar to what the Japanese pulled? Or
the US treatment of captive populations, similar to how the Japanese treated
(eg) the Chinese? US medical experiments on captive Japanese soldiers? US
troops forcing their civilians to commit suicide rather than face the ignomy
of capture?
Thanks.
> more balanced view of what happened to ordinary people in Iraq than what people
> in the US did with their flag waving, government mouthpiece news media.
Which ones? The ones criticizing the way the US ran the war?
Mike
mtfe...@netscape.net
Durnburn it, I hate it when I do that...
Mike
Eric Takabayashi
Kaz
No, it doesn't mean Jews. I thought it's more like those chiquitita
type people, Swedes.
mtfe...@netscape.net
> Michael Cash <mike...@sunfield.ne.jp> wrote in message news:<jandgvonfuraudalh...@4ax.com>...
>> On 5 Jul 2003 05:55:38 -0700, k...@ivebeenframed.com (Kaz) belched the
>> alphabet and kept on going with:
>>
>>
>> "****berg" kinda people
>>
>> What the fuck does that mean? Jews? I don't know about Steve, but I
>> think Morty and Ida might find that remark offensive.
> No, it doesn't mean Jews. I thought it's more like those chiquitita
> type people, Swedes.
"chiquitita"?
Is this another Kazism, like "kinai" and "sepponia"?
Maybe you ought to change your screen name to Humpty Dumpty...
Mike
Michael Cash
the alphabet and kept on going with:
>Eric Takabayashi <eta...@yahoo.co.jp> wrote:
I do it too. But in my case it is an indication of how appallingly
poor my Japanese is.
Ryan Ginstrom
<mtfe...@netscape.net> wrote in message
news:be7tg6$q0n$1...@news.Stanford.EDU...
Luckily for you, you must not know many Abba songs.
--
Regards,
Ryan Ginstrom
masayuki yoshida
What you and Eric want to say in this thread may be so simple that I
will rephrase as follows: Contemporary Japanese should learn what
their own nation did as an invader during the war times. However, how
to teach history is not so simple. If you tell us what of Japanese
war history you want to teach Japanese students, it would be
appreciated.
Masayuki
Kevin Gowen
Does Japan have the legend of Flashdance?
--
Kevin Gowen
"The US economy accounts for about one-third of global GDP-greater than
the next four countries combined (Japan, Germany, the United Kingdom
and France)."
- "Advancing the National Interest: Australia's Foreign and Trade
Policy White Paper", Australian Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade
Eric Takabayashi
That's right.
> However, how to teach history is not so simple.
Why not? Look at what other nations such as Germany have done. The only problem I can think of with the German view is
that they cannot merely blame Hitler and the Nazis, because they supported them.
> If you tell us what of Japanese
> war history you want to teach Japanese students, it would be
> appreciated.
It's quite simple. Teach the children of Japan, the US, etc. the truth of what happened during less proud times of their
nations' history, without convenient omissions of what Japanese did abroad while focusing on Japanese suffering such as
the Battle of Okinawa or the A-bombing of Hiroshima. Let them hear about what actually happened between the Meiji Period
and the A bombings, and views on why and how it was allowed to happen. I had to learn about slavery as early as junior
high, and an entire year of social studies in high school was devoted to US social problems with a new problem
practically every day. Everything from exploitation of foreign laborers to the Ford Pinto.
mtfe...@netscape.net
> What you and Eric want to say in this thread may be so simple that I
> will rephrase as follows: Contemporary Japanese should learn what
> their own nation did as an invader during the war times. However, how
> to teach history is not so simple. If you tell us what of Japanese
> war history you want to teach Japanese students, it would be
> appreciated.
Reminds me of what my wife told me about taking history class. They'd
spent the year going through the class, and ran out of time at about
the time they just finished the beginning of the Showa Era. The teacher
told the class "I'm very sorry. Please ask your parents about this."
:-)
Mike
Eric Takabayashi
Whaaat? Didn't they get to the suffering in the Battle of Okinawa or the
A-bombings? Not even the firebombings or just the A-bombing of Hiroshima?
Didn't the children have to spend literal weeks painting banners or murals
calling for world peace, or put on a skit or sing songs during some school
functions to magically create peace somewhere else in the world where
people are suffering today?
Those teachers didn't do their jobs.
mtfe...@netscape.net
MatthewOutland
> Contrary to what one might think today, just about every major (and even
> bum-f**ked in the case of Gifu) city outside of Kyoto was pretty much
> flattened by bombing.
Thats a load of crap. Although many cities were bombed, tokyo is
really the only city that can be said to have been "burned down",
having 56 percent of the city devastated. (unless, of course, you
count hiroshima and nagasaki)
Japanese tell you every city was bombed just so they can justify there
stupid pseudo-american antics. No one said you had to rebuild a burnt
down sushi restaurant with a french cafe.
Eric Takabayashi
Those teachers had much less of an agenda than teachers I see who focus on the
suffering, while glossing over the imperialism.
MatthewOutland
> And then the people who do not even know that Japan had their own (failed)
> program to develop the A-bomb, of which the founder of Sony was a part, which
> might lead to a bit of understanding of why the US was so desperate to build
> and use one first
The japanese a-bomb project was a grossly underfunded joke that wasnt
even taken seriously.
Not to mention that japan was grossly incapable of manufacturing and
testing effective atomic weapons if they did disocver how.
mtfe...@netscape.net
>>
>> Contrary to what one might think today, just about every major (and even
>> bum-f**ked in the case of Gifu) city outside of Kyoto was pretty much
>> flattened by bombing.
> Thats a load of crap.
Right. Sapporo, Niigata, and a coupla others were untouched, relatively.
Excellent point.
> Although many cities were bombed, tokyo is
Over 55 cities were deemed to be "severely damaged" by post-war US
estimates.
> really the only city that can be said to have been "burned down",
> having 56 percent of the city devastated. (unless, of course, you
> count hiroshima and nagasaki)
Hardly worth mentioning, are they?
Mike
masayuki yoshida
What do you mean by this implication? I want to answer your question,
but it seems beyond my ability of interpreting English words. Be
aware of my being native Japanese.
Masayuki
Eric Takabayashi
> > Does Japan have the legend of Flashdance?
>
> What do you mean by this implication? I want to answer your question,
> but it seems beyond my ability of interpreting English words. Be
> aware of my being native Japanese.
Does your reappearance mean your studies are complete?
Kevin Gowen
When I was a JET, my high school had the 2nd year students do a unit on
Okinawa. They might as well have called it "Three months about the Battle of
Okinawa". Sweet sassy molassey it seems liek all they did was talk about
people killing themselves in a cave.
> Those teachers didn't do their jobs.
--
Eric Takabayashi
My school SENT the entire grade, and all the grade teachers including the
foreigner, to Okinawa, for the class trip, to hear about their suffering first
hand at the hands of Japanese and Americans and stand in a pitch dark cave
where Okinawans told us Americans poured flaming gasoline in on them. Some kids
cried.
Ask me if they heard anything about Japanese atrocities at any time during
their "peace" (NOT "wartime") studies. The nearest they got was one pre planned
and approved class on having kids consider why Korean money would bear the face
of the man who assassinated a Japanese official. Once I also accompanied some
children on a walk to the Korean memorial outside the Peace Park.
> > Those teachers didn't do their jobs.
At my schools in Hiroshima, the schools and teachers did an excellent job of
brainwashing children into Japanese sympathizers. The association for bereaved
families showed its influence, as did the conservative Ministry of Education.
Hinomaru hoisted or displayed, and Kimigayo at all functions. Many children and
teachers did not sing (though they were told to, or led loudly by some other
teacher), but all had to stand.
Kaz
"sepponia" isn't my creation. fj.life.in-japan has its patent.
John Yamamoto-Wilson
> What you and Eric want to say in this thread may be so simple that I
> will rephrase as follows: Contemporary Japanese should learn what
> their own nation did as an invader during the war times.
Well, I won't deny that that is part of it. But I am shocked at how little
aware my students sometimes appear to be of *any* environment apart from the
one they are themselves living in, be it life in modern Mexico or life in
Edo-period Japan.
> However, how
> to teach history is not so simple. If you tell us what of Japanese
> war history you want to teach Japanese students, it would be
> appreciated.
I remember some Japanese girls coming to me (as their teacher) when I was
working in a language school in the UK years ago. They were very upset
because a little boy had spat at them and called them "dirty Japs" and said,
"Please tell us who hates us because of history". I guess if Japanese
children could get that kind of information as a standard component of their
education that would be empowering for them.
In that case, I got a retired army major to come and talk to them, and he
went through the basics of WWII in a very kind and non-judgmental way,
including an explanation of the fact that many local lads in that area were
in a regiment that ended up as prisoners of war of the Japanese. You may
remember that even the Emperor did not understand, when he went to England,
why about a thousand old men turned their backs on him in the procession
through London.
By the way, I don't think it's only Japan where there is a lack of
appropriate information about things one would imagine would form the basis
of an education in the modern world. In this newsgroup we've heard about the
Texan schoolteacher who thought Spanish was the national language of Canada
and there've been reports of Japanese returning from the United States being
asked by schoolchildren things like, "Do you have television?"
Being from the UK myself, I doubt that all that many British schoolchildren
realise that (for example) the conflict in Northern Ireland resulted mainly
from the British policy of giving Protestants incentives to go and live in
Ireland (not to mention laws depriving the Catholics of the right to own
land or receive an education), much less that faraway conflicts like the one
in Sri Lanka might have anything to do with British colonial policies.
However, information is available, and well-informed people will know what
the issues are, whereas in fjlij we've seen intelligent Japanese people, who
are quite well-informed in other areas, bring up things like Britain's
occupation of Burma (Myanmar) in apparent ignorance of Japan's occupation of
that country (http://tinyurl.com/g4u7, scroll down to the end).
Eric Takabayashi
> masayuki yoshida wrote:
>
> > What you and Eric want to say in this thread may be so simple that I
> > will rephrase as follows: Contemporary Japanese should learn what
> > their own nation did as an invader during the war times.
>
> Well, I won't deny that that is part of it. But I am shocked at how little
> aware my students sometimes appear to be of *any* environment apart from the
> one they are themselves living in, be it life in modern Mexico or life in
> Edo-period Japan.
Japanese I've known blame it on the schools and their focus on academics and
tests. B.S. In the first place, they aren't really studying so much that they
can't take notice of the outside world, and secondly they are making the
deliberate choice to be more interested in say, aping Shibuya fashions or the
features of new models of cell phone; than more serious issues which actually
affect real people like say, women's rights or war overseas.
This ignorance is hardly unique to Japan, either.
> > However, how
> > to teach history is not so simple. If you tell us what of Japanese
> > war history you want to teach Japanese students, it would be
> > appreciated.
>
> I remember some Japanese girls coming to me (as their teacher) when I was
> working in a language school in the UK years ago. They were very upset
> because a little boy had spat at them and called them "dirty Japs" and said,
> "Please tell us who hates us because of history". I guess if Japanese
> children could get that kind of information as a standard component of their
> education that would be empowering for them.
I am sure that Japanese know that much, that people in countries such as South
Korea and China bear grudges over the war. They can get that from the news.
What is not dwelt upon is WHY such people might remain angry nearly 60 years
after the war ended.
> In that case, I got a retired army major to come and talk to them, and he
> went through the basics of WWII in a very kind and non-judgmental way,
Remarkable. Was he a WWII veteran himself? What was the students' reaction?
> including an explanation of the fact that many local lads in that area were
> in a regiment that ended up as prisoners of war of the Japanese. You may
> remember that even the Emperor did not understand, when he went to England,
> why about a thousand old men turned their backs on him in the procession
> through London.
Perhaps he did not understand because he did not realize who they were, not
because he is ignorant of history. Even the Emperor now makes his own public
expressions of "remorse" over wartime actions.
Michael Cash
alphabet and kept on going with:
>mtfe...@netscape.net wrote in message news:<be7tg6$q0n$1...@news.Stanford.EDU>...
>> Kaz <k...@ivebeenframed.com> wrote:
>> > Michael Cash <mike...@sunfield.ne.jp> wrote in message news:<jandgvonfuraudalh...@4ax.com>...
>> >> On 5 Jul 2003 05:55:38 -0700, k...@ivebeenframed.com (Kaz) belched the
>> >> alphabet and kept on going with:
>> >>
>> >> >God informed me that "****berg" kinda people consider so.
>> >>
>> >> "****berg" kinda people
>> >>
>> >> What the fuck does that mean? Jews? I don't know about Steve, but I
>> >> think Morty and Ida might find that remark offensive.
>>
>> > No, it doesn't mean Jews. I thought it's more like those chiquitita
>> > type people, Swedes.
>>
>> "chiquitita"?
>>
>> Is this another Kazism, like "kinai" and "sepponia"?
>
>"sepponia" isn't my creation. fj.life.in-japan has its patent.
He's right, Mike. The first to use "Sepponia" here was gary.
Michael Cash
(MatthewOutland) belched the alphabet and kept on going with:
Entirely beside the point. The point is not the practicality or
plausibility of the project, but rather that it's mere existence takes
some of the moral high ground piss-n-vinegar out of the Japanese
position.
Michael Cash
<eta...@yahoo.co.jp> belched the alphabet and kept on going with:
One's studies are never complete, grasshopper. Snatching the pebbles
from one hand doesn't mean there are no more hands and no more pebbles
out there. Remember the words of Confuse-us, who said, "He who wears
orthopedic shoes always stands corrected."
masayuki yoshida
It would be a common story amongst those who got through classes of
Japanese history in Japanese High schools. Unlike that, fortunately I
finished read Japanese and world history books cover to cover when I
was in a high school. Although Eric ALWAYS points out the lack of our
history knowledge, are American people far more knowledgeable about
their own nation's past than Japanese?
Masayuki
Eric Takabayashi
> mtfe...@netscape.net wrote in message news:<be89lc$3jp$1...@news.Stanford.EDU>...
> > masayuki yoshida <ys...@yahoo.co.jp> wrote:
> >
> > > What you and Eric want to say in this thread may be so simple that I
> > > will rephrase as follows: Contemporary Japanese should learn what
> > > their own nation did as an invader during the war times. However, how
> > > to teach history is not so simple. If you tell us what of Japanese
> > > war history you want to teach Japanese students, it would be
> > > appreciated.
> >
> > Reminds me of what my wife told me about taking history class. They'd
> > spent the year going through the class, and ran out of time at about
> > the time they just finished the beginning of the Showa Era. The teacher
> > told the class "I'm very sorry. Please ask your parents about this."
>
> It would be a common story amongst those who got through classes of
> Japanese history in Japanese High schools.
No, they get the Japan as victim story, like the Hiroshima A-bombing, according to
their agenda. Even the Japanese media pointed out how more recently an increasing
number of textbooks have excised or glossed over such issues as the "comfort
women".
> Unlike that, fortunately I
> finished read Japanese and world history books cover to cover when I
> was in a high school.
But did you read Japanese VERSIONS of history books, or also say, Korean and
Chinese accounts of the war? As an American, I get international versions of news
and history.
> Although Eric ALWAYS points out the lack of our
> history knowledge, are American people far more knowledgeable about
> their own nation's past than Japanese?
This is totally besides the point, and this attempt at diversion is a common
tactic among Japanese when confronted over Japanese political or social issues.
(Another is pointing out to foreigners how long ago the war was, while whining
about Hiroshima and how we must "never forget".) You go and complain all you want
about Americans, and we'll talk about Japanese.
mtfe...@netscape.net
> masayuki yoshida wrote:
> In that case, I got a retired army major to come and talk to them, and he
> went through the basics of WWII in a very kind and non-judgmental way,
> including an explanation of the fact that many local lads in that area were
> in a regiment that ended up as prisoners of war of the Japanese. You may
> remember that even the Emperor did not understand, when he went to England,
> why about a thousand old men turned their backs on him in the procession
> through London.
Oh, I'm sure he understood; after all, he (Hirohito) never visitted Okinawa
when it was returned to Japan. He sent his son instead, who was attacked.
Mike
mtfe...@netscape.net
Well, it's a much shorter time period to cover.
Mike
mtfe...@netscape.net
> On 6 Jul 2003 01:43:08 -0700, k...@ivebeenframed.com (Kaz) belched the
> alphabet and kept on going with:
>>mtfe...@netscape.net wrote in message news:<be7tg6$q0n$1...@news.Stanford.EDU>...
>>> Kaz <k...@ivebeenframed.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> "chiquitita"?
>>>
>>> Is this another Kazism, like "kinai" and "sepponia"?
>>
>>"sepponia" isn't my creation. fj.life.in-japan has its patent.
> He's right, Mike. The first to use "Sepponia" here was gary.
You mean this is contagious?
Mike
mtfe...@netscape.net
> On 5 Jul 2003 23:02:53 -0700, matthewo...@yahoo.com
> (MatthewOutland) belched the alphabet and kept on going with:
>>> And then the people who do not even know that Japan had their own (failed)
>>> program to develop the A-bomb, of which the founder of Sony was a part, which
>>> might lead to a bit of understanding of why the US was so desperate to build
>>> and use one first
>>
>>The japanese a-bomb project was a grossly underfunded joke that wasnt
>>even taken seriously.
>>
>>Not to mention that japan was grossly incapable of manufacturing and
>>testing effective atomic weapons if they did disocver how.
> Entirely beside the point. The point is not the practicality or
> plausibility of the project, but rather that it's mere existence takes
> some of the moral high ground piss-n-vinegar out of the Japanese
> position.
Not at all; after all, there was very little chance they'd use it against
Japanese.
:-)
Mike
Michael Cash
the alphabet and kept on going with:
>Michael Cash <mike...@sunfield.ne.jp> wrote:
>> On 6 Jul 2003 01:43:08 -0700, k...@ivebeenframed.com (Kaz) belched the
>> alphabet and kept on going with:
>
>>>mtfe...@netscape.net wrote in message news:<be7tg6$q0n$1...@news.Stanford.EDU>...
>>>> Kaz <k...@ivebeenframed.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> "chiquitita"?
>>>>
>>>> Is this another Kazism, like "kinai" and "sepponia"?
>>>
>>>"sepponia" isn't my creation. fj.life.in-japan has its patent.
>
>> He's right, Mike. The first to use "Sepponia" here was gary.
>
>You mean this is contagious?
Given enough time/exposure, isn't everything?
Michael Cash
the alphabet and kept on going with:
>Michael Cash <mike...@sunfield.ne.jp> wrote:
>> On 5 Jul 2003 23:02:53 -0700, matthewo...@yahoo.com
>> (MatthewOutland) belched the alphabet and kept on going with:
>
>>>> And then the people who do not even know that Japan had their own (failed)
>>>> program to develop the A-bomb, of which the founder of Sony was a part, which
>>>> might lead to a bit of understanding of why the US was so desperate to build
>>>> and use one first
>>>
>>>The japanese a-bomb project was a grossly underfunded joke that wasnt
>>>even taken seriously.
>>>
>>>Not to mention that japan was grossly incapable of manufacturing and
>>>testing effective atomic weapons if they did disocver how.
>
>> Entirely beside the point. The point is not the practicality or
>> plausibility of the project, but rather that it's mere existence takes
>> some of the moral high ground piss-n-vinegar out of the Japanese
>> position.
>
>Not at all; after all, there was very little chance they'd use it against
>Japanese.
The it would be the first incidence on record of Japanese showing a
reluctance to screw over fellow Japanese. When I think about it that
way, it's sort of a shame they didn't succeed in making the thing.
mtfe...@netscape.net
> On Sun, 6 Jul 2003 15:20:55 +0000 (UTC), mtfe...@netscape.net belched
> the alphabet and kept on going with:
>>> He's right, Mike. The first to use "Sepponia" here was gary.
>>
>>You mean this is contagious?
> Given enough time/exposure, isn't everything?
Money doesn't seem to be...
Mike
Kevin Gowen
> Kevin Gowen wrote:
>
>> Eric Takabayashi wrote:
>>> Whaaat? Didn't they get to the suffering in the Battle of Okinawa or
>>> the A-bombings? Not even the firebombings or just the A-bombing of
>>> Hiroshima? Didn't the children have to spend literal weeks painting
>>> banners or murals calling for world peace, or put on a skit or sing
>>> songs during some school functions to magically create peace
>>> somewhere else in the world where people are suffering today?
>>
>> When I was a JET, my high school had the 2nd year students do a unit
>> on Okinawa. They might as well have called it "Three months about
>> the Battle of Okinawa". Sweet sassy molassey it seems liek all they
>> did was talk about people killing themselves in a cave.
>
> My school SENT the entire grade, and all the grade teachers including
> the foreigner, to Okinawa, for the class trip, to hear about their
> suffering first hand at the hands of Japanese and Americans and stand
> in a pitch dark cave where Okinawans told us Americans poured flaming
> gasoline in on them. Some kids cried.
My school did the same thing, except for the part about bringing the
foreigner, even though my "homeroom" was that grade.
Michael Cash
the alphabet and kept on going with:
>Michael Cash <mike...@sunfield.ne.jp> wrote:
>> On Sun, 6 Jul 2003 15:20:55 +0000 (UTC), mtfe...@netscape.net belched
>> the alphabet and kept on going with:
>
>>>> He's right, Mike. The first to use "Sepponia" here was gary.
>>>
>>>You mean this is contagious?
>
>> Given enough time/exposure, isn't everything?
>
>Money doesn't seem to be...
Not true.
The more contact I have with other people, the more of my money they
end up with. Shirley you must have noticed this phenomenon in your own
life as well?
mtfe...@netscape.net
> On Sun, 6 Jul 2003 19:25:49 +0000 (UTC), mtfe...@netscape.net belched
> the alphabet and kept on going with:
>>Michael Cash <mike...@sunfield.ne.jp> wrote:
>>> On Sun, 6 Jul 2003 15:20:55 +0000 (UTC), mtfe...@netscape.net belched
>>> the alphabet and kept on going with:
>>
>>>>> He's right, Mike. The first to use "Sepponia" here was gary.
>>>>
>>>>You mean this is contagious?
>>
>>> Given enough time/exposure, isn't everything?
>>
>>Money doesn't seem to be...
> Not true.
> The more contact I have with other people, the more of my money they
> end up with. Shirley you must have noticed this phenomenon in your own
> life as well?
Nope. No money for them to contract.
And theirs doesn't seem contagious (or if it is, I was innoculated against
it at a tender age.)
Mike
Greg Macdonald
<mike...@sunfield.ne.jp> spake:
>On Sun, 6 Jul 2003 19:25:49 +0000 (UTC), mtfe...@netscape.net belched
>the alphabet and kept on going with:
>
>>Michael Cash <mike...@sunfield.ne.jp> wrote:
>>> On Sun, 6 Jul 2003 15:20:55 +0000 (UTC), mtfe...@netscape.net belched
>>> the alphabet and kept on going with:
>>
>>>>> He's right, Mike. The first to use "Sepponia" here was gary.
>>>>
>>>>You mean this is contagious?
>>
>>> Given enough time/exposure, isn't everything?
>>
>>Money doesn't seem to be...
>
>Not true.
>
>The more contact I have with other people, the more of my money they
>end up with. Shirley you must have noticed this phenomenon in your own
>life as well?
Lately I've noticed that the more contact I have with people, the more
of *my bank's* money they wind up with.
I keep hoping the bank will forget that, but they have good computers
and send me reminders all the time. Damn.
MatthewOutland
> estimates.
I was pushing my point a bit hard. Most major cities were very
damaged, but only Tokyo and hiroshima and nagasaki are what I would
call "burned down" I'll post some statistics, my current source:
Here are japan's most heavily damaged cities:
City percent devastated
Kobe 8.8
Nagoya 12.4
osaka 15.6
Tokyo 56.3
Yokohama 9.9
I think hiroshima and nagasaki had 50 and 33 percent respectively.
Damage to other major cities was either marginal or non-existant.
Heavy as the damage was, only 3 cities could be said to have been
"burned down" in my opinion. Also note that Kanazawa, Kyoto,
Kamukara, Nara and other cities of "culture" were spared. We were
trying to destroy japanese industry, not culture.
the reason japanese cities are lacking in cultural artifacts is
because japanese consider things asian in origin to be inferior, and
shamelessly destroyed all of them. Every temple was changed to a
church, every katana recurved in to a saber and every japanese
bathhouse turned in to a swedish one and every kimono and yukata
redyed in to an english robe. Also, I dont think the american bombers
liked tokyo-japs.
> Hardly worth mentioning, are they?
Well, I didnt know if you meant just fire-bombing
Kevin Gowen
I didn't imply anything.
> I want to answer your question,
> but it seems beyond my ability of interpreting English words. Be
> aware of my being native Japanese.
I want to help you to answer my question, so please tell me which English
word(s) gave you trouble.
mtfe...@netscape.net
>> Over 55 cities were deemed to be "severely damaged" by post-war US
>> estimates.
> Here are japan's most heavily damaged cities:
> City percent devastated
> Kobe 8.8
Gosh, in a city of (then) about 500,000, that's a merely ~40,000 people.
> Nagoya 12.4
> osaka 15.6
> Tokyo 56.3
> Yokohama 9.9
> Damage to other major cities was either marginal or non-existant.
I dunno; my mother-in-law recalls seeing the river in Kochi black with
"marginally" dead people.
> Heavy as the damage was, only 3 cities could be said to have been
> "burned down" in my opinion. Also note that Kanazawa, Kyoto,
> Kamukara, Nara and other cities of "culture" were spared. We were
> trying to destroy japanese industry, not culture.
Hmm, I recall claiming otherwise. Hang on a second, I'll double-check...
Nope, never recalled saying anything about trying to destroy Japanese culture.
You must be responding to the wrong person.
> the reason japanese cities are lacking in cultural artifacts is
> because japanese consider things asian in origin to be inferior, and
> shamelessly destroyed all of them.
Odd. I've seen quite a few things of Asian origin all over Japan, including
in the National Museums in Ueno.
>Every temple was changed to a
> church, every katana recurved in to a saber and every japanese
> bathhouse turned in to a swedish one and every kimono and yukata
> redyed in to an english robe. Also, I dont think the american bombers
> liked tokyo-japs.
Probably all born and raised in the "kinai" region.
>> Hardly worth mentioning, are they?
> Well, I didnt know if you meant just fire-bombing
Oh, well, that explains it all.
Mike
Declan Murphy
> On 6 Jul 2003 01:43:08 -0700, k...@ivebeenframed.com (Kaz) belched the
> alphabet and kept on going with:
>
>>mtfe...@netscape.net wrote in message news:<be7tg6$q0n$1...@news.Stanford.EDU>...
>>
>>>Kaz <k...@ivebeenframed.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>Michael Cash <mike...@sunfield.ne.jp> wrote in message news:<jandgvonfuraudalh...@4ax.com>...
>>>>
>>>>>On 5 Jul 2003 05:55:38 -0700, k...@ivebeenframed.com (Kaz) belched the
>>>>>alphabet and kept on going with:
>>>>>
>>>>>>God informed me that "****berg" kinda people consider so.
>>>>>
>>>>>"****berg" kinda people
>>>>>
>>>>>What the fuck does that mean? Jews? I don't know about Steve, but I
>>>>>think Morty and Ida might find that remark offensive.
>>>>
>>>>No, it doesn't mean Jews. I thought it's more like those chiquitita
>>>>type people, Swedes.
>>>
>>>"chiquitita"?
>>>
>>>Is this another Kazism, like "kinai" and "sepponia"?
>>
>>"sepponia" isn't my creation. fj.life.in-japan has its patent.
>
> He's right, Mike. The first to use "Sepponia" here was gary.
I thought that particular "gary" used it in an austrian motorcycle group?
--
"Forget Spanish. There's nothing in that language worth reading except
Don Quixote, and a quick listen to the CD of Man of La Mancha will take
care of that. Who speaks it that you are really desperate to talk to?
The help? Your leaf blower? Study French or German, where there are at
least a few books worth reading, or if you're American, try English."
Dame Edna Everage
"If you have to explain satire to someone, you might as well give up,"
Barry Humphries
Declan Murphy
>>Contrary to what one might think today, just about every major (and even
>>bum-f**ked in the case of Gifu) city outside of Kyoto was pretty much
>>flattened by bombing.
>
> Thats a load of crap. Although many cities were bombed, tokyo is
> really the only city that can be said to have been "burned down",
> having 56 percent of the city devastated. (unless, of course, you
> count hiroshima and nagasaki)
Nope. The (then) US Army Air Force bombing surveys specifically listed
several cities with higher rates of estimated destruction due to M69
incendiaries than Tokyo. A good academic library will have copies of the
survey (you might in some cases need to access microfiche, though these
days I'd imagine most records would have been digitalized), if you are
interested, read it.
> Japanese tell you every city was bombed just so they can justify there
> stupid pseudo-american antics. No one said you had to rebuild a burnt
> down sushi restaurant with a french cafe.
Wouldn't building a French cafe make it a stupid pseudo-french antic?
masayuki yoshida
> >> Does Japan have the legend of Flashdance?
> >
> > What do you mean by this implication?
>
> I didn't imply anything.
>
> > I want to answer your question,
> > but it seems beyond my ability of interpreting English words. Be
> > aware of my being native Japanese.
>
> I want to help you to answer my question, so please tell me which English
> word(s) gave you trouble.
Thanks. My trouble lies in the word 'Flashdance'. What is it? You
suggest a film or something?
Masayuki
masayuki yoshida
> masayuki yoshida wrote:
>
> > Eric Takabayashi <eta...@yahoo.co.jp> wrote in message news:<3F05CA44...@yahoo.co.jp>...
> > > Ryan Ginstrom wrote:
> > >
> > > > "Ernest Schaal" <esc...@max.hi-ho.ne.jp> wrote in message
> > > > news:BB2B7991.41B4%esc...@max.hi-ho.ne.jp...
> > > > > On the way home I noticed a poster about a memorial ceremony on the
> > > > > anniversary of Gifu being carpet bombed in WWII. It shows a photograph
> that
> > > > > shows the town leveled as if it were Hiroshima. Anyone know the history of
> > > > > all this?
> > > >
> > > > Contrary to what one might think today, just about every major (and even
> > > > bum-f**ked in the case of Gifu) city outside of Kyoto was pretty much
> > > > flattened by bombing.
> > >
> > > of 80,000. Lack of media or public attention and a focus on the A-bombings,
> > > particularly of Hiroshima, has contributed to this ignorance or apathy among
> > > Japanese. Many even forget the Tokyo firebombing.
> >
> > As far as the majority of contemporary Japanese is a post-war
> > failing to recall person's real experience by the term?
>
> indeed "forget". Just tonight I was at my children's' nursery school annual summer festival, but
> for some reason, "peace" was the theme. Instead of the usual children dancing or fireworks finale,
> the children and parents stood in a circle holding hands singing along to some song I've never
> heard before saying we are "one world".
>
> Right. One world with war, terrorism, SARS, etc. Then there is Japan which is so safe and
> peaceful.
I am under the impression that when you talk about the history of
Japanese modern war times you ALWAYS provide with your arguements
based on morality. However, I would say that moral perspectives are
one of ways for interpreting history. To take an example, how is war
a moral issue? If you are in charge of war tactics and strategy and
must decide something important, and if I am not in a such position,
then can you and myself reach the same understanding of the war?
> And next month, we'll hear about Hiroshima, and to a much lesser extent, Nagasaki again. Maybe
> Koizumi and the Emperor will make some vague speeches about their "remorse" again or the trouble
> that occurred in Asia.
Thay are standing in their own positions. You are in a different
position from theirs. The 'remorse' is a strictly political
expression, I suppose.
Masayuki
Scott Reynolds
> masayuki yoshida wrote:
>>Although Eric ALWAYS points out the lack of our
>>history knowledge, are American people far more knowledgeable about
>>their own nation's past than Japanese?
>
> This is totally besides the point, and this attempt at diversion is a common
> tactic among Japanese when confronted over Japanese political or social issues.
Why is it beside the point? This "Japanese youth are amazingly ignorant
of history" line is just another variant on the "Japanese are unique"
myth, and I really don't think it stands up very well to scrutiny. As
Masayuki pointed out in another post, some kids (like he himself as a
high school student) are interested in history and take the trouble to
learn something about it by reading books, watching documentaries on TV,
and the like. Others could care less. I think you can find both types of
kids in just about any country.
--
_______________________________________________________________
Scott Reynolds s...@gol.com
masayuki yoshida
> masayuki yoshida wrote:
>
> > What you and Eric want to say in this thread may be so simple that I
> > will rephrase as follows: Contemporary Japanese should learn what
> > their own nation did as an invader during the war times.
>
> aware my students sometimes appear to be of *any* environment apart from the
> one they are themselves living in, be it life in modern Mexico or life in
> Edo-period Japan.
>
> > to teach history is not so simple. If you tell us what of Japanese
> > war history you want to teach Japanese students, it would be
> > appreciated.
>
> working in a language school in the UK years ago. They were very upset
> because a little boy had spat at them and called them "dirty Japs" and said,
> "Please tell us who hates us because of history". I guess if Japanese
> children could get that kind of information as a standard component of their
> education that would be empowering for them.
Last week I watched an English film 'All or nothing' (Japanese title:
Jinsei wa tokidoki hare) in Hibiya, Tokyo. I knew that British boys
of the working class spit at and say 'F**k off!' even to their
parents.
By the way, I think it should be wrong for Brits to say 'dirty Japs',
because Brits hardly take a bath or shower. ;-)
> In that case, I got a retired army major to come and talk to them, and he
> went through the basics of WWII in a very kind and non-judgmental way,
> including an explanation of the fact that many local lads in that area were
> in a regiment that ended up as prisoners of war of the Japanese. You may
> remember that even the Emperor did not understand, when he went to England,
> why about a thousand old men turned their backs on him in the procession
> through London.
I guess that the Emperor knew such a stupid demonstration and its
meaninglessness.
> By the way, I don't think it's only Japan where there is a lack of
> appropriate information about things one would imagine would form the basis
> of an education in the modern world. In this newsgroup we've heard about the
> Texan schoolteacher who thought Spanish was the national language of Canada
> and there've been reports of Japanese returning from the United States being
> asked by schoolchildren things like, "Do you have television?"
>
> Being from the UK myself, I doubt that all that many British schoolchildren
> realise that (for example) the conflict in Northern Ireland resulted mainly
> from the British policy of giving Protestants incentives to go and live in
> Ireland (not to mention laws depriving the Catholics of the right to own
> land or receive an education), much less that faraway conflicts like the one
> in Sri Lanka might have anything to do with British colonial policies.
> However, information is available, and well-informed people will know what
> the issues are, whereas in fjlij we've seen intelligent Japanese people, who
> are quite well-informed in other areas, bring up things like Britain's
> occupation of Burma (Myanmar) in apparent ignorance of Japan's occupation of
> that country (http://tinyurl.com/g4u7, scroll down to the end).
Let me ask you a question, John. Which do you think was a more
villainous nation as a collonialist, Japan or Britain?
Masayuki
masayuki yoshida
>
> > What you and Eric want to say in this thread may be so simple that I
> > will rephrase as follows: Contemporary Japanese should learn what
> > to teach history is not so simple. If you tell us what of Japanese
> > war history you want to teach Japanese students, it would be
> > appreciated.
>
> spent the year going through the class, and ran out of time at about
> the time they just finished the beginning of the Showa Era. The teacher
> told the class "I'm very sorry. Please ask your parents about this."
Or rather, if at the present time, the teacher should tell your wife
'Please ask your husband about this'. How are you, Mike?
Masayuki
> :-)
>
> Mike
masayuki yoshida
> masayuki yoshida <ys...@yahoo.co.jp> wrote:
> > mtfe...@netscape.net wrote in message news:<be89lc$3jp$1...@news.Stanford.EDU>...
> >> masayuki yoshida <ys...@yahoo.co.jp> wrote:
>
> > It would be a common story amongst those who got through classes of
> > Japanese history in Japanese High schools. Unlike that, fortunately I
> > finished read Japanese and world history books cover to cover when I
> > was in a high school. Although Eric ALWAYS points out the lack of our
> > history knowledge, are American people far more knowledgeable about
> > their own nation's past than Japanese?
>
> Well, it's a much shorter time period to cover.
You mean American history textbooks don`t cover the Stone Age, for example?
Masayuki
Scott Reynolds
> Last week I watched an English film 'All or nothing' (Japanese title:
> Jinsei wa tokidoki hare) in Hibiya, Tokyo. I knew that British boys
> of the working class spit at and say 'F**k off!' even to their
> parents.
I think you mean to say "I learned" or "I now know" rather than "I knew."
> By the way, I think it should be wrong for Brits to say 'dirty Japs',
> because Brits hardly take a bath or shower. ;-)
My, you are in fine form today, Masayuki. BTW, welcome back!
> I guess that the Emperor knew such a stupid demonstration and its
> meaninglessness.
Many people seem to have found their gesture to be rather eloquent,
actually. And I must say it was preferable to, say, trying to drive a
minicar into the Emperor's limousine.
> Let me ask you a question, John. Which do you think was a more
> villainous nation as a collonialist, Japan or Britain?
I know that John is one of those people who has been taught to believe
-- or perhaps has taught himself to believe -- that the British empire
represents the greatest wrong ever committed in the history of mankind.
It is interesting to ask oneself, however, why today there is a
Commonwealth of Nations of which Britain and several former British
colonies are members, but no Japanese Commonwealth (or perhaps the term
should be Co-prosperity Sphere).
Silvio Franke
Scott Reynolds schrieb:
> It is interesting to ask oneself, however, why today there is a
> Commonwealth of Nations of which Britain and several former British
> colonies are members, but no Japanese Commonwealth (or perhaps the term
> should be Co-prosperity Sphere).
The answer is quite simple. Japan lost the war. Britain not.
Silvio
-------------------------------------------------
Sometimes I feel the strong urge to march east...
Scott Reynolds
> Scott Reynolds schrieb:
>
>>It is interesting to ask oneself, however, why today there is a
>>Commonwealth of Nations of which Britain and several former British
>>colonies are members, but no Japanese Commonwealth (or perhaps the term
>>should be Co-prosperity Sphere).
>
> The answer is quite simple. Japan lost the war. Britain not.
I don't think so. What is to prevent Japan from organizing its own
Commonwealth of Nations and inviting its former colonies to join?
Nothing but the fact that the answer would be a resounding no from every
country receiving such an invitation.
By the same token, what is to prevent current members of the British
Commonwealth of Nations from pulling out of the organization, especially
the ones that are sovereign nations in their own right? It seems to me
that the Commonwealth members choose to remain in the organization
because they perceive doing so to be in their own interest.
Silvio Franke
Scott Reynolds schrieb:
>
> On 7/7/2003 5:34 PM, Silvio Franke wrote:
>
> > Scott Reynolds schrieb:
> >
> >>It is interesting to ask oneself, however, why today there is a
> >>Commonwealth of Nations of which Britain and several former British
> >>colonies are members, but no Japanese Commonwealth (or perhaps the term
> >>should be Co-prosperity Sphere).
> >
> > The answer is quite simple. Japan lost the war. Britain not.
>
> I don't think so. What is to prevent Japan from organizing its own
> Commonwealth of Nations and inviting its former colonies to join?
> Nothing but the fact that the answer would be a resounding no from every
> country receiving such an invitation.
I guess this is not an option for Japan. Maybe this could have been an
option, if Japan would not have started the war in the Pacific or if
it would at least have won it. And I think, that the former Japanese
Colonies, would still have some kind of ties to Japan, if Japan
wouldn't have lost the war.
> By the same token, what is to prevent current members of the British
> Commonwealth of Nations from pulling out of the organization, especially
> the ones that are sovereign nations in their own right? It seems to me
> that the Commonwealth members choose to remain in the organization
> because they perceive doing so to be in their own interest.
Yes, but what would be, if Britain would have lost the war. I don't
think, that the Commonwealth would have survived a German victory in
WWII.
John R. Yamamoto- Wilson
> Oh, I'm sure he understood; after all, he (Hirohito) never visitted
Okinawa
> when it was returned to Japan. He sent his son instead, who was attacked.
Oh, Hirohito would have known all right. It is Akihito I'm talking about.
Brett Robson
>
>By the way, I think it should be wrong for Brits to say 'dirty Japs',
>because Brits hardly take a bath or shower. ;-)
How about "smelly Japs"?, at least the English know what soap and deodorant is.
---
"he [John Ashcroft] deliberately left Jesus out of office prayers to avoid
offending non-Christians." - Ben Shapiro 27/2/2003
Brett Robson
>
>
>I know that John is one of those people who has been taught to believe
>-- or perhaps has taught himself to believe -- that the British empire
>represents the greatest wrong ever committed in the history of mankind.
>It is interesting to ask oneself, however, why today there is a
>Commonwealth of Nations of which Britain and several former British
>colonies are members, but no Japanese Commonwealth (or perhaps the term
>should be Co-prosperity Sphere).
>
Just occured to me, I don't think Pakistan is part of the Commonwealth?
Brett Robson
By the way, did we ever thank you for Papua New Guinea?
Silvio Franke
Brett Robson schrieb:
>
> On Mon, 07 Jul 2003 10:34:25 +0200, Silvio ...
> >
> >
> >
> >Scott Reynolds schrieb:
> >
> >> It is interesting to ask oneself, however, why today there is a
> >> Commonwealth of Nations of which Britain and several former British
> >> colonies are members, but no Japanese Commonwealth (or perhaps the term
> >> should be Co-prosperity Sphere).
> >
> >The answer is quite simple. Japan lost the war. Britain not.
> >
> >Silvio
> >-------------------------------------------------
> >Sometimes I feel the strong urge to march east...
>
> By the way, did we ever thank you for Papua New Guinea?
Only for PapuaNew Guinea?
One or two years ago I wrote a housework about former German colonies
and the list there was a little bit longer, than only Papua New
guinea...
...thanklessness and oblivious pack! ;-)
Declan Murphy
> On Mon, 07 Jul 2003 17:29:25 +0900, Scott ...
>
>>I know that John is one of those people who has been taught to believe
>>-- or perhaps has taught himself to believe -- that the British empire
>>represents the greatest wrong ever committed in the history of mankind.
>>It is interesting to ask oneself, however, why today there is a
>>Commonwealth of Nations of which Britain and several former British
>>colonies are members, but no Japanese Commonwealth (or perhaps the term
>>should be Co-prosperity Sphere).
>
> Just occured to me, I don't think Pakistan is part of the Commonwealth?
They seem to be, unless the site is out of date of course.
http://www.commonwealthgames.com
Declan Murphy
> Only for PapuaNew Guinea?
> One or two years ago I wrote a housework about former German colonies
They made you study Paul von Lettow Vorbeck?
> and the list there was a little bit longer, than only Papua New
> guinea...
>
> ...thanklessness and oblivious pack! ;-)
Nonsense. Although I suppose having Namibia play in both the Rugby and
Cricket World Cups with all those German surnames in the teams kinda
rubs salt in the wound a bit.
John R. Yamamoto- Wilson
> I guess that the Emperor knew such a stupid demonstration and its
> meaninglessness.
On the contrary. It wasn't stupid or meaningless. I can't find a source that
confirms what I read at the time (that he himself expressed shock because he
hadn't fully understood the situation), but here is an account of the bare
facts of the incident:
http://www.christopherlong.co.uk/pri.monarchs.html
> Let me ask you a question, John. Which do you think was a more
> villainous nation as a collonialist, Japan or Britain?
I went through all that with Shuji Matsuda about a year ago
(http://tinyurl.com/g72p - sorry, it's a long thread, that starts on a
different subject, and slowly works its way round to this topic). The short
answer is, Britain's former colonies still choose to maintain diplomatic,
social and cultural ties with Britain in the form of the British
Commonwealth (http://www.thecommonwealth.org/), whereas Japan's former
colonies couldn't wait to see the back of their imperial masters. Only
Southern Ireland (the closest and the most ill-treated) opted definitively
to have nothing to do with the Commonwealth.
Here are a few links which discuss one or two things many Japanese -
including perhaps yourself - are unaware of:
http://www.bmw.ukf.net/3pagodas/TBRandON.htm
http://members.ozemail.com.au/~andyinoz/railhist.htm
http://www.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/getarticle.pl5?nn20010327b5.htm
There are many others that would be an eye-opener to a lot of Japanese
people. I can dig them out for you if you like.
Don't get me wrong, though. I teach British culture, and in my class we
cover plenty of shameful aspects of the British Empire - the Slave Triangle,
the Opium Wars, the exploitation of child labour in English factories, the
treatment handed out to the Irish (including of course the Potato Famine).
But the British Empire was sold to the public at home as "the white man's
burden" - the plain *duty* of an "advanced" country to reach out a helping
hand to less "advantaged" countries. Of course, during the 18th and early
19th centuries this was largely hogwash, but by the middle of the 19th
century the idea had permeated - "If we aren't there to *help* them, what
are we there for?"
Hospitals and health services, schools and educational systems, churches and
the good and evil they bring in their wake, railways, roads, town planning,
civil services - host of structures were set up around the world until in
the end Britain had to relinquish its empire, not because (with the
occasional exception, such as Suez) it was pushed out in any kind of
showdown, but simply because it could no longer afford to keep on devloping
all over the world the programme of reforms which had begun in Britain
itself. Scratch deeper and you will find that many countries, such as India,
are still using much of the same basic infrastructure they acquired in the
days of the British Empire.
Silvio Franke
Declan Murphy schrieb:
>
> Silvio Franke wrote:
>
> > Only for PapuaNew Guinea?
> > One or two years ago I wrote a housework about former German colonies
>
> They made you study Paul von Lettow Vorbeck?
Not only him. But they didn't force me.
> > and the list there was a little bit longer, than only Papua New
> > guinea...
> >
> > ...thanklessness and oblivious pack! ;-)
>
> Nonsense. Although I suppose having Namibia play in both the Rugby and
> Cricket World Cups with all those German surnames in the teams kinda
> rubs salt in the wound a bit.
Namibia - You mean Deutsch-Suedwestafrika?
Nah, the wound has healed quite good. It saved Germany from the
trouble with colonies, which are fighting for independence and so on.
No colonies - no trouble
masayuki yoshida
> masayuki yoshida wrote:
>
> > mtfe...@netscape.net wrote in message news:<be89lc$3jp$1...@news.Stanford.EDU>...
> > > masayuki yoshida <ys...@yahoo.co.jp> wrote:
> > >
> > > > will rephrase as follows: Contemporary Japanese should learn what
> > > > their own nation did as an invader during the war times. However, how
> > > > to teach history is not so simple. If you tell us what of Japanese
> > > > war history you want to teach Japanese students, it would be
> > > > appreciated.
> > >
> > > Reminds me of what my wife told me about taking history class. They'd
> > > spent the year going through the class, and ran out of time at about
> > > the time they just finished the beginning of the Showa Era. The teacher
> > > told the class "I'm very sorry. Please ask your parents about this."
> >
> > Japanese history in Japanese High schools.
>
> their agenda. Even the Japanese media pointed out how more recently an increasing
> number of textbooks have excised or glossed over such issues as the "comfort
> women".
As you know, there were also thousands of Japanese ‘comfort women',
mainly from the Northern Japan, in China and other war areas. I
wonder if you criticise me for talking about them as victim story. I
also wonder if you criticize me for regarding baby sufferers of the
A-boming as victims.
> > Unlike that, fortunately I
> > finished read Japanese and world history books cover to cover when I
> > was in a high school.
>
> But did you read Japanese VERSIONS of history books, or also say, Korean and
> Chinese accounts of the war? As an American, I get international versions of news
> and history.
Oh goodness. Then, tell me how the versions narrate Japanese
(including Korean Japanese in those days) comfort women and Vietnamese
deformed babies resulted by tons of defoliants that the American
military scatter over the killing fields.
> > Although Eric ALWAYS points out the lack of our
> > history knowledge, are American people far more knowledgeable about
> > their own nation's past than Japanese?
>
> This is totally besides the point, and this attempt at diversion is a common
> tactic among Japanese when confronted over Japanese political or social issues.
> (Another is pointing out to foreigners how long ago the war was, while whining
> about Hiroshima and how we must "never forget".) You go and complain all you want
> about Americans, and we'll talk about Japanese.
One question, Eric. Of course this is about Japan and Japanese. What
is the reason why dozens of School heads (e.g., Sera High School)
recently committed suicide in HIROSHIMA?
Masayuki
Declan Murphy
> masayuki yoshida wrote:
>>Let me ask you a question, John. Which do you think was a more
>>villainous nation as a collonialist, Japan or Britain?
>
> <snippity doo dah, snippity eh>Only
> Southern Ireland (the closest and the most ill-treated) opted definitively
> to have nothing to do with the Commonwealth.
Along with Burma, Nepal and all of the ex-colonies in the Middle East.
The vast majority of course, remain members. Must be Wimbledon or sumthin.
> But the British Empire was sold to the public at home as "the white man's
> burden" - the plain *duty* of an "advanced" country to reach out a helping
> hand to less "advantaged" countries. Of course, during the 18th and early
> 19th centuries this was largely hogwash, but by the middle of the 19th
> century the idea had permeated - "If we aren't there to *help* them, what
> are we there for?"
I loved India born, Eton College educated George Orwell's take on it in
Burmese Days...
He produced a copy of a bilingual paper called the Burmese Patriot. It
was a miserable eight-page rag, villainously printed on paper as bad as
blotting paper, and composed partly of news stolen from the Rangoon
Gazette, partly of weak Nationalist heroics. On the last page the type
had slipped and left the entire sheet jet black, as though in mourning
for the smallness of the paper’s circulation. The article to which U Po
Kyin turned was of a rather different stamp from the rest. It ran:
"In these happy times, when we poor blacks are being uplifted by the
mighty western civilization, with its manifold blessings such as the
cinematograph, machine-guns, syphilis, etc., what subject could be more
inspiring than the private lives of our European benefactors? We think
therefore that it may interest our readers to hear something of events
in the up-country district of Kyauktada. And especially of Mr Macgregor,
honoured Deputy Commissioner of said district.
Mr Macgregor is of the type of the Fine Old English Gentleman, such as,
in these happy days, we have so many examples before our eyes. He is ’a
family man’ as our dear English cousins say. Very much a family man is
Mr Macgregor. So much so that he has already three children in the
district of Kyauktada, where he has been a year, and in his last
district of Shwemyo he left six young progenies behind him. Perhaps it
is an oversight on Mr Macgregor’s part that he has left these young
infants quite unprovided for, and that some of their mothers are in
danger of starvation, etc., etc., etc."
http://whitewolf.newcastle.edu.au/words/authors/O/OrwellGeorge/prose/BurmeseDays/chapter1.html
Declan Murphy
>
> Declan Murphy schrieb:
>
>>Silvio Franke wrote:
>>
>>>Only for PapuaNew Guinea?
>>>One or two years ago I wrote a housework about former German colonies
>>
>>They made you study Paul von Lettow Vorbeck?
>
> Not only him. But they didn't force me.
Quite true, his achievements are incredibly absorbing reading.
> Namibia - You mean Deutsch-Suedwestafrika?
I dunno, do I? Prolly.
> Nah, the wound has healed quite good. It saved Germany from the
> trouble with colonies, which are fighting for independence and so on.
> No colonies - no trouble
A lesson new empires never seem to learn from those they replace.
Silvio Franke
Declan Murphy schrieb:
>
> Silvio Franke wrote:
> >
> > Declan Murphy schrieb:
> >
> >>Silvio Franke wrote:
> >>
> >>>Only for PapuaNew Guinea?
> >>>One or two years ago I wrote a housework about former German colonies
> >>
> >>They made you study Paul von Lettow Vorbeck?
> >
> > Not only him. But they didn't force me.
>
> Quite true, his achievements are incredibly absorbing reading.
His fighting is still a good example for, what we call here
"Verzoegerungstaktik" and the binding of enemy resources.
> > Nah, the wound has healed quite good. It saved Germany from the
> > trouble with colonies, which are fighting for independence and so on.
> > No colonies - no trouble
>
> A lesson new empires never seem to learn from those they replace.
But the Germans learned their lesson. We now send millions of
tourists to the place of our interest and slowly and secretly
annex it. It works in large parts of Italy, Austia (the other one)
Greece and Spain. Only in Mallorca and Ibiza the British show some
resistance by using the same tactics.
Declan Murphy
>
> Declan Murphy schrieb:
>>Quite true, his achievements are incredibly absorbing reading.
>
> His fighting is still a good example for, what we call here
> "Verzoegerungstaktik" and the binding of enemy resources.
I can see how calling something "Verzoegerungstaktik" can tie up a lot
of resources.
>>A lesson new empires never seem to learn from those they replace.
>
> But the Germans learned their lesson. We now send millions of
> tourists to the place of our interest and slowly and secretly
> annex it. It works in large parts of Italy, Austia (the other one)
> Greece and Spain. Only in Mallorca and Ibiza the British show some
> resistance by using the same tactics.
Isn't it in Majorca where some of the towns have German (only) speaking
mayors?
Silvio Franke
Declan Murphy schrieb:
> >>A lesson new empires never seem to learn from those they replace.
> >
> > But the Germans learned their lesson. We now send millions of
> > tourists to the place of our interest and slowly and secretly
> > annex it. It works in large parts of Italy, Austia (the other one)
> > Greece and Spain. Only in Mallorca and Ibiza the British show some
> > resistance by using the same tactics.
>
> Isn't it in Majorca where some of the towns have German (only) speaking
> mayors?
I don't know, if some of the mayors there are German (only) speaking.
But I guess it is far easier to get along there with speaking only
German, than speaking only Spanish. And a lot of the local main
shops and enterprises are in German hands. In some areas it is like
Germany, only with more sun and better weather. This is the reason,
why I won't never go there. I can get a Schnitzel much cheaper and
with much better service only a few km from here.
masayuki yoshida
> Korea and China bear grudges over the war. They can get that from the news.
> What is not dwelt upon is WHY such people might remain angry nearly 60 years
> after the war ended.
I don't care about their new generation's angry so much, over half of
which was made by their ideological and biased school textbooks,
government's propaganda, great persistence (by cloves of Korean
garlic) and masochistic mentality.
Masayuki
Scott Reynolds
>
> Scott Reynolds schrieb:
>
>>On 7/7/2003 5:34 PM, Silvio Franke wrote:
>>>The answer is quite simple. Japan lost the war. Britain not.
>>
>>I don't think so. What is to prevent Japan from organizing its own
>>Commonwealth of Nations and inviting its former colonies to join?
>>Nothing but the fact that the answer would be a resounding no from every
>>country receiving such an invitation.
>
> I guess this is not an option for Japan.
But why not? Think about it. Why can't Japan start organizing such an
organization today?
> Maybe this could have been an
> option, if Japan would not have started the war in the Pacific or if
> it would at least have won it.
Of course if Japan had won she could have forced all her colonies to
continue to belong to the Greater East Asia Co-prosperity Sphere. But
the point I was getting at is that none of the colonies would have
wanted to remain members voluntarily.
> And I think, that the former Japanese
> Colonies, would still have some kind of ties to Japan, if Japan
> wouldn't have lost the war.
One might as well speak of what might have happened if space aliens had
landed and taken over the earth. Japan never had the slightest chance of
"winning" the war she started.
>>By the same token, what is to prevent current members of the British
>>Commonwealth of Nations from pulling out of the organization, especially
>>the ones that are sovereign nations in their own right? It seems to me
>>that the Commonwealth members choose to remain in the organization
>>because they perceive doing so to be in their own interest.
>
> Yes, but what would be, if Britain would have lost the war. I don't
> think, that the Commonwealth would have survived a German victory in
> WWII.
Right. In that case the Commonwealth members would not have had the
choice to choosing whether to remain members or not.
Scott Reynolds
> Silvio Franke wrote:
>>Nah, the wound has healed quite good. It saved Germany from the
>>trouble with colonies, which are fighting for independence and so on.
>>No colonies - no trouble
>
> A lesson new empires never seem to learn from those they replace.
Indeed.
Scott Reynolds
> Just occured to me, I don't think Pakistan is part of the Commonwealth?
It seems that Pakistan and Zimbabwe are presently suspended.
http://www.africaonline.com/site/Articles/1,3,53048.jsp
Silvio Franke
Scott Reynolds schrieb:
> >>>The answer is quite simple. Japan lost the war. Britain not.
> >>
> >>I don't think so. What is to prevent Japan from organizing its own
> >>Commonwealth of Nations and inviting its former colonies to join?
> >>Nothing but the fact that the answer would be a resounding no from every
> >>country receiving such an invitation.
> >
> > I guess this is not an option for Japan.
>
> But why not? Think about it. Why can't Japan start organizing such an
> organization today?
I guess this depends on the behaviour of the Japanese forces in their
former colonies and occupied coutries and their behaviour after the war.
And additionaly after the end of WWII Japan was not able to determine
its own politics for a while. But I'm not an expert in the US
occupation policy in Japan, so this might have been diferent.
> > Maybe this could have been an
> > option, if Japan would not have started the war in the Pacific or if
> > it would at least have won it.
>
> Of course if Japan had won she could have forced all her colonies to
> continue to belong to the Greater East Asia Co-prosperity Sphere. But
> the point I was getting at is that none of the colonies would have
> wanted to remain members voluntarily.
I agree. The Japanese behaviour in the occupied countries didn't help
very much.
> > And I think, that the former Japanese
> > Colonies, would still have some kind of ties to Japan, if Japan
> > wouldn't have lost the war.
>
> One might as well speak of what might have happened if space aliens had
> landed and taken over the earth. Japan never had the slightest chance of
> "winning" the war she started.
Maybe. Maybe not. I guess we'll never have a chance to find it out.
> >>By the same token, what is to prevent current members of the British
> >>Commonwealth of Nations from pulling out of the organization, especially
> >>the ones that are sovereign nations in their own right? It seems to me
> >>that the Commonwealth members choose to remain in the organization
> >>because they perceive doing so to be in their own interest.
> >
> > Yes, but what would be, if Britain would have lost the war. I don't
> > think, that the Commonwealth would have survived a German victory in
> > WWII.
>
> Right. In that case the Commonwealth members would not have had the
> choice to choosing whether to remain members or not.
Silvio
Scott Reynolds
> Scott Reynolds schrieb:
>>But why not? Think about it. Why can't Japan start organizing such an
>>organization today?
>
> I guess this depends on the behaviour of the Japanese forces in their
> former colonies and occupied coutries and their behaviour after the war.
>
> And additionaly after the end of WWII Japan was not able to determine
> its own politics for a while. But I'm not an expert in the US
> occupation policy in Japan, so this might have been diferent.
You are quite correct that for several years after the war Japan did not
have the opportunity to determine her own foreign policy. So any
theoretical Japanese Commonwealth would have to have been set up many
years after the end of the war -- perhaps even after the end of the Cold
War.
>>Of course if Japan had won she could have forced all her colonies to
>>continue to belong to the Greater East Asia Co-prosperity Sphere. But
>>the point I was getting at is that none of the colonies would have
>>wanted to remain members voluntarily.
>
> I agree. The Japanese behaviour in the occupied countries didn't help
> very much.
Yes. Unfortunately, Japan is still paying the price for that behavior today.
John R. Yamamoto- Wilson
> I know that John is one of those people who has been taught to believe
> -- or perhaps has taught himself to believe -- that the British empire
> represents the greatest wrong ever committed in the history of mankind.
> It is interesting to ask oneself, however, why today there is a
> Commonwealth of Nations of which Britain and several former British
> colonies are members, but no Japanese Commonwealth (or perhaps the term
> should be Co-prosperity Sphere).
Funnily enough, despite what you see as my loathing for the villainies
perpetrated by my country, I raised the same point in my reply to Masayuki
before reading this.
I think empires tend to be at their worst in their early days, but on the
whole the only way the imperialists sell their policies to the folks back
home is by pretending to do some good. Take a look at Japanese magazines,
newspapers, etc., of the 1930s for ample evidence that Japan was no
exception.
Now, that can keep going as a form of doublethink for just so long, but
sooner or later the word's going to trickle back from the colonies to the
citizens of the occupying country. Then the pressure comes onto the
government to ensure that the reality starts to match up to the hype.
If Japan's empire had had a couple of hundred years to establish itself and
develop it is possible that it would have actually become (at least in part)
the enlightening, liberating force that it pretended to be. After all, there
were signs of liberal, benign administrations in some areas (e.g.,
Singapore) even in the early days.
I don't say it *would* have happened like that, but the converse scenario -
that of the British Empire collapsing a hundred years or more sooner than it
did - is clear; Britain would have left a bad taste in people's mouths, and
history would have written it off as a demonic scourge. It was mainly in its
later days that it could be classed as having had a benign effect.
John R. Yamamoto- Wilson
> Yes, but what would be, if Britain would have lost the war. I don't
> think, that the Commonwealth would have survived a German victory in
> WWII.
"What if?" will always be the great imponderable of history, but it is often
forgotten that it was not just Britain, nor even just Britain and the
Americans, who won the war, but all of Britain's colonies and dependencies
too. They stuck with Britain during its darkest days and, while a German
victory would clearly have been catastrophic for them, I don't know that it
would have dissolved the psychological bond. Indeed, they would have had
little recourse but to turn to Britain (and, in that scenario, the US) as
the "great white hope" that would save them from systematic enslavement
under Nazi ideology. (I'm thinking of course of the so-called "new"
Commonwealth - India, Pakistan, Jamaica, etc. - rather than the "new"
Commonwealth - Australia, Canada, New Zealand...)
John R. Yamamoto- Wilson
> > Southern Ireland (the closest and the most ill-treated) opted
definitively
> > to have nothing to do with the Commonwealth.
>
> Along with Burma, Nepal and all of the ex-colonies in the Middle East.
Yes, sorry - not to mention countries leaving and rejoining. Still,
apologies - I got carried away with myself there - happily writing postings
and winging them out into cyberspace without tying up all the loose ends.
Careless, I know, but what the heck? At least when I lecture on this kind of
stuff I get paid for it!
> The vast majority of course, remain members.
Which is the main point.
__________________________________________________________
"For the British, the existence of the Commonwealth has helped ease the pain
of the loss of their once-mighty empire. There can be no doubt that no other
empire in history left behind such a financial, cultural and political
network. Not Greece, Rome, Germany, France, Portugal or Spain."
(http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=21707)
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Thanks for the Orwell link, but with Bleak House *and* Burmese Days in one
day the Yahoos might need time to recover. ;-)