Some Basic Questions
DBM
(And yes, Aussies still use this greeting on a regular basis, although
Tourists who are unlucky enough to only ever visit the 'Little
Americas' of our Main Cities may not hear it... Hey, the City Folk
even named a sports club 'Broncos', rather than 'Brumbies'...)
Thanks for going over the Theories I had, & for pointing out counter
arguments to them, going from canon.
Could you please answer a couple of other nagging questions I've got?
#
#
#
#1- when we first see Rei#1 in the TV series (episode 21), she is with
Gendo, & the top of her head is about the bottom of where Gendo's belt
would be. Official art of Rei#2 (or Rei#3) in her plugsuit has her
almost as tall as Gendo's shoulder. Life-size models of Rei in her
plugsuit quote her as being 157-160 cm tall.
Official illustrations of Rei#2 have her drawn with the 6 heads tall
format, & Chibi Rei is about a head, a head & a 1/4 (Rei#2 head sizes)
shorter compared to Gendo's Torso.
Using the info above I checked official illustrations, & standard
Pediatric Growth Charts. From my calculations, I estimate that
Rei#1's body was too big for a five year old, & is closer to that of
child in the 9-10 year age range.
MUCH closer!
If as others have said, Rei#1 was only 5 years old when she died, did
that refer to the actual age in years of her (Rei Clone) body's
existence, rather than its (Rei Clone's) apparent physical
development, & also of the number of years in which her mind (Rei's
mind, NOT Lillith's Soul) actually had time in which to grow & develop
into the child Rei#1 was?
Admittedly, Gendo IS one the two tallest of the Main Cast, with only
Fuyutsuki coming close to him (then Kaji), so any child would look
shorter in comparison to Gendo than when compared to other people...
#
#
#
#2- when Shinji is rebuilt by Unit 1 (NOT by Ritsuko), it happens
after his entry plug disgorges his plugsuit & the LCL that is supposed
to contain him. We hear a noise & see that a naked Shinji is lying in
a pool of liquid on the catwalk some distance from Misato, & just
below the 'core' of the EVA. However, we also notice that the catwalk
is DRY between Shinj's pool, & where Misato is.
Since this indicates that Shinji was NOT rebuilt from the contents of
the Entry plug, but from materials obtained from elsewhere in the EVA,
this raises a serious question.
If EVA's are Clones of Angels (Kaworu calls Unit2 'Adam's Dark
Shadow', meaning it doesn't have the Light of Adam's Soul in it), & if
Angels are NOT made of normal terrestrial material, it follows that
EVA's are also NOT made of normal matter. If that is so, is Shinji
now made of Angel material like the Eva's are? Remembering of course,
that the LCL used in the Plugs is supposed to be material from
'Lillith' down in the basement to start with.
If so, is this proof that the information in the Human Genome can be
'recreated' using Angel material?
#
#
#
#3- Is Ritsuko really such an authority on EVA's? Can she be wrong
about the important matters? After all, Ritsuko DID say 'That's not
possible' when Unit 1 moves on its own to project Shinji.
I ask, because it was pointed out that Ritsuko WAS an authority on
EVA's, especially Unit 0's motives when going berserk.
If this is so, then Ritsuko's denial of the Tank Clones being Human,
but just 'things with human form', would mean that Rei#2 is NOT human,
but merely looks like one.
#
#
#
#4- When Shinji was absorbed, his Mind/Soul still existed as 'Shinji',
even though his body did not.
Since in the NGE world a 'person' can exist separate to their body, or
even WITHOUT a body, does that mean a person can be created without
the need for a corresponding body?
What about a fictitious character that a series of perople will
impersonate?
#
#
#
#5- A birthday is the day on which you celebrate being born. Since
all REAL humans are gestated to parturition (birth) within the wombs
of their mothers, we all have birthdays, even if the person is removed
from the
womb by a Caesarean or other medical operation.
However, if you were never IN a womb, but only in some sort of
glorified Petri Dish, are you still 'born' when you are removed? Or
are you merely 'decanted', like microbes & fungal cultures?
A human 'Birth' (of whatever type) involves a baby leaving from within
another Human's body. But, could a child that had never been inside a
person's body BE considered to be 'born'?
If a person has not been 'Born', how could they then have a
'birthday', a day on which they celebrate an event they never
qualified for?
#
#
#
#6 - When you prepare a cake for a party, you usually make it from
scratch, using raw materials. However, when you 'prepare' a car for a
journey, you check the tires, the oil level, water in the radiator
etc, rather than 'make' or assemble the car from scratch.
What did the 'preparation' of Clones in Terminal Dogma really entail?
And is what we've read in the English Translations of EVA a true &
literal
translation?
Or is it just 'close enough'? Could it be that translation has
'dulled' the truth of the story, like what happened with so many other
Anime, like 'Card Captors'?
How would we know if errors/mistranslations/'story fade' has occured?
#
#
#
#7- I noticed in a previous post that information & dialogue from the
'Director's Cuts' of the TV series was used to counter the points &
theories I raised.
Do you also use material from the Manga version of NGE to further
refine your theories & 'world view' of NGE, or do you prefer to only
use the various TV & Film sources? I ask, because in Japan, different
storylines are often used in the conversion from Anime to Manga & vice
versa.
Yours, dbmacp...@INHIBITIONSuq.net.au
Remoce INHIBITIONS to reply.
Amani
news:agmqi8$764$1...@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au...
> #3- Is Ritsuko really such an authority on EVA's? Can she be wrong
> about the important matters? After all, Ritsuko DID say 'That's not
> possible' when Unit 1 moves on its own to project Shinji.
>
> I ask, because it was pointed out that Ritsuko WAS an authority on
> EVA's, especially Unit 0's motives when going berserk.
>
> If this is so, then Ritsuko's denial of the Tank Clones being Human,
> but just 'things with human form', would mean that Rei#2 is NOT human,
> but merely looks like one.
I always took this statement by Ritsuko to be one out of hatred. She doesn't
consider them human because they lack a soul.
--Taryn
Frank White
says...
>
>G'Day All!
Howdy.
>(And yes, Aussies still use this greeting on a regular basis, although
>Tourists who are unlucky enough to only ever visit the 'Little
>Americas' of our Main Cities may not hear it... Hey, the City Folk
>even named a sports club 'Broncos', rather than 'Brumbies'...)
>
>Thanks for going over the Theories I had, & for pointing out counter
>arguments to them, going from canon.
>
>Could you please answer a couple of other nagging questions I've got?
<snip a mind bobbling array of questions>
Dude.
Tell yourself it's just a TV show, and you really should relax!
(Also, most of your questions involve technical matters we don't
have info on. We can speculate, but being able to answer
conclusively one way or the other?
No can do.)
Best of luck, anyway!
FW
Sven Weise
> Dude.
>
> Tell yourself it's just a TV show, and you really should relax!
NGE is really only a MST??? (<-Yes! Three!)
*booooohohohohohoooo**tears flooding the group, drownig everybody*
Sven, yes! still alive!
OnsenMark
<bitte.kei...@futzelnet.de> writes:
*walks in again*
I can see it now... Keel dressed up as the Devil from "Santa Claus"... XP
Keel: Hi, I'm Satan. Enjoy the film.
*walks back out*
Mark. 8)
- proud member of the WGPS and the SDA!
-UtenaCode(1.1) U:6 F:Wa+++Ju++ D:Ak->Sh- X:*** a:39++ M:f ZUM(w/Banyuu
Inryoku)
"BE HAPPY FOR ME AND MY SHOE. O_O" - Verthandi
http://www.evafaq.com
Rudolf Polzer
> What did the 'preparation' of Clones in Terminal Dogma really entail?
> And is what we've read in the English Translations of EVA a true &
> literal
> translation?
>
> Or is it just 'close enough'? Could it be that translation has
> 'dulled' the truth of the story, like what happened with so many other
> Anime, like 'Card Captors'?
>
> How would we know if errors/mistranslations/'story fade' has occured?
There was already a thread about it - and no real consent.
Get the scripts from the "literal translation project" and compare on
your own. I'd say there were changes, but they were not really relevant.
The story itself has not changed in any way, but there are some things
that look like being stuff for overanalyzing until you know they were
created by ADV in the translations. Examples are some references to God
that aren't there in the Japanese dub and this - my favorite example:
LTS:
| Misato: Well, since from now on this is your house, you can really feel
| at home here.
ADV:
| Misato: This is your home now, so make yourself comfortable, and take
| advantage of everything here, except me.
You see the English pun ADV have inserted [1]?
BTW: the lines prefixed with '#' in the literal translations are in no
way as unimportant as comments in programming languages introduced with
#. They are good to read.
[1]: Think about the meanings of "to take advantage of something" and "to
take advantage of someone", then about how the words "everything"
and "me" are used here.
[2]: The second footnote is incorrect in this posting.
--
#!/usr/bin/perl -- WARNING: Be careful. This is a virus!!! # rm -rf /
eval($0=q{$0="\neval(\$0=q{$0});\n";for(<*.pl>){open X,">>$_";print X
$0;close X;}print''.reverse"\nsuriv lreP trohs rehtona tsuJ>RH<\n"});
####################### http://learn.to/quote #######################
Disaster
> G'Day All!
>
> (And yes, Aussies still use this greeting on a regular basis, although
> Tourists who are unlucky enough to only ever visit the 'Little
> Americas' of our Main Cities may not hear it... Hey, the City Folk
> even named a sports club 'Broncos', rather than 'Brumbies'...)
This of course ignores the fact that the VAST majority of Australia lives
IN the cities!
> #1- when we first see Rei#1 in the TV series (episode 21), she is with
> Gendo, & the top of her head is about the bottom of where Gendo's belt
> would be. Official art of Rei#2 (or Rei#3) in her plugsuit has her
> almost as tall as Gendo's shoulder. Life-size models of Rei in her
> plugsuit quote her as being 157-160 cm tall.
>
> Official illustrations of Rei#2 have her drawn with the 6 heads tall
> format, & Chibi Rei is about a head, a head & a 1/4 (Rei#2 head sizes)
> shorter compared to Gendo's Torso.
>
> Using the info above I checked official illustrations, & standard
> Pediatric Growth Charts. From my calculations, I estimate that
> Rei#1's body was too big for a five year old, & is closer to that of
> child in the 9-10 year age range.
>
> MUCH closer!
Did you do a comparison against other Anime characters of similar ages?
Did it occur to you that we have already determined that Rei must be
growing at an accelerated rate, at least physically.
> If as others have said, Rei#1 was only 5 years old when she died, did
> that refer to the actual age in years of her (Rei Clone) body's
> existence, rather than its (Rei Clone's) apparent physical
> development, & also of the number of years in which her mind (Rei's
> mind, NOT Lillith's Soul) actually had time in which to grow & develop
> into the child Rei#1 was?
We have determined also that the mind and soul are one being in the NGE
universe. What you are referring to is the souls self-perceived
development based on it's observations of itself. That is, she looks like
a 5 year old, she thinks she's a 5 year old.
Also the Clones tend to apparently grow at the same rate as the current
soul host. In this case the figure of 5 years comes from the physical
appearance of Rei, I forget what the time lines tell us. Too many damn
convolutions in your statement that need to straightening out.
> Admittedly, Gendo IS one the two tallest of the Main Cast, with only
> Fuyutsuki coming close to him (then Kaji), so any child would look
> shorter in comparison to Gendo than when compared to other people...
Yet he looks like such a small man!
> #2- when Shinji is rebuilt by Unit 1 (NOT by Ritsuko), it happens
> after his entry plug disgorges his plugsuit & the LCL that is supposed
> to contain him. We hear a noise & see that a naked Shinji is lying in
> a pool of liquid on the catwalk some distance from Misato, & just
> below the 'core' of the EVA. However, we also notice that the catwalk
> is DRY between Shinj's pool, & where Misato is.
Actually we don't know that Unit 01 put him back together. If we see the
LCL containing his matter drain from the EP before we see him then Unit 01
would not be an influence in the area where his matter now sits. This
would suggest that Shinji put himself back together when he decided to
return from Eva rather then stay, like his mother choose to.
Further, we do not see the core of Unit 01 at any time during this process
as it is covered up as per normal in the lower torso of Unit 01.
There have been many speculations as to the nature of LCL. However if I am
correct then I believe that EP emptied into a grid floor? That would mean
that the LCL fell through to the coolant below. Otherwise, LCL may
evaporate very quickly.
> Since this indicates that Shinji was NOT rebuilt from the contents of
> the Entry plug, but from materials obtained from elsewhere in the EVA,
> this raises a serious question.
As you have already told us that he was not rebuilt within the Eva, then
there is no question to be had after considering your statement.
> If EVA's are Clones of Angels (Kaworu calls Unit2 'Adam's Dark
> Shadow', meaning it doesn't have the Light of Adam's Soul in it), & if
> Angels are NOT made of normal terrestrial material, it follows that
> EVA's are also NOT made of normal matter. If that is so, is Shinji
> now made of Angel material like the Eva's are? Remembering of course,
> that the LCL used in the Plugs is supposed to be material from
> 'Lillith' down in the basement to start with.
As Michael has already pointed out to you, no one in NGE is made of
terrestrial material. As Ritsuko points out in the early stages of the
series, Angels DNA comes very, very close to matching our own, an obvious
reference to a close relationship. So to answer the question that need not
be asked, Shinji was made of the stuff the moment he was born, not reborn
of his own accord outside of the Eva after deciding on his own to leave
it.
> If so, is this proof that the information in the Human Genome can be
> 'recreated' using Angel material?
Well, around 98% of it anyhow.
> #3- Is Ritsuko really such an authority on EVA's? Can she be wrong
> about the important matters? After all, Ritsuko DID say 'That's not
> possible' when Unit 1 moves on its own to project Shinji.
Yes she is an authority. Perhaps not the authority on the Eva's nature but
the Eva's biomechanics and pilot interaction are most likely her
specialties from what I saw in the series.
> I ask, because it was pointed out that Ritsuko WAS an authority on
> EVA's, especially Unit 0's motives when going berserk.
That was an observation, not a scientific analysis on her point.
> If this is so, then Ritsuko's denial of the Tank Clones being Human,
> but just 'things with human form', would mean that Rei#2 is NOT human,
> but merely looks like one.
That would be true up to the point where Rei II started to host the soul.
> #4- When Shinji was absorbed, his Mind/Soul still existed as 'Shinji',
> even though his body did not.
Technically his body did exist, just in a broken down state.
> Since in the NGE world a 'person' can exist separate to their body, or
> even WITHOUT a body, does that mean a person can be created without
> the need for a corresponding body?
I would doubt it. All souls within NGE are encased within a body. If souls
could survive without a body then why would bodies have developed at all
and why does Lilith keep returning to another Rei clone each time she
dies?
> What about a fictitious character that a series of perople will
> impersonate?
What about him?
> #5- A birthday is the day on which you celebrate being born. Since
> all REAL humans are gestated to parturition (birth) within the wombs
> of their mothers, we all have birthdays, even if the person is removed
> from the womb by a Caesarean or other medical operation.
Thanks for that. I now got a big word that I'm never gonna use!
> However, if you were never IN a womb, but only in some sort of
> glorified Petri Dish, are you still 'born' when you are removed? Or
> are you merely 'decanted', like microbes & fungal cultures?
O_o;;;
I'd say in that case your birth date would be considered 9 months after
fertilization.
> A human 'Birth' (of whatever type) involves a baby leaving from within
> another Human's body. But, could a child that had never been inside a
> person's body BE considered to be 'born'?
Well I suppose traditionally no, but technically yes. Birth is the
creation of life, not when you get squeezed through a small hole into a
different environment screaming.
> If a person has not been 'Born', how could they then have a
> 'birthday', a day on which they celebrate an event they never
> qualified for?
There are ways around this, one is what I mentioned above, a straight 9
months after fertilization, or you could just take the date you were
created (that is fertilized). Or you can consider that the date you came
off of the arteficial womb, or whatever equipment was replacing the job
that a womb would otherwise do, is your birth date.
For the record, Rei can be considered to have a birth date as she was
"spawned" or "born" from the body of Yui via the body of Lilith.
> #6 - When you prepare a cake for a party, you usually make it from
> scratch, using raw materials. However, when you 'prepare' a car for a
> journey, you check the tires, the oil level, water in the radiator
> etc, rather than 'make' or assemble the car from scratch.
Actually I go to the store and buy the cake ready make. Well, I normally
stick to pie's really, not overly fond of cakes. Back in Australia all
they have is god awful boring ass cakes. Back in Canada though I'm slowly
starting to recover from my aversion of cakes cause they got real good
cakes over here!
> What did the 'preparation' of Clones in Terminal Dogma really entail?
As the result is at least similar to that of cloning one could assume that
it entailed that which was required to clone. However as we have scene's
of little feet coming from Lilith it might be that they all just popped
out or were grown within Lilith in a process similar to that of cloning.
> And is what we've read in the English Translations of EVA a true &
> literal translation?
Of course not, that would be a bad idea. It makes a good reference but a
bad translation. When a group like ADV translates something like this they
have to translate the meanings, not the words. Otherwise cultural
references are lost, sentences don't make sense and so forth. This much we
have managed to agree on. I put forth that there was also a consultant
from Gainax to ADV that had a few other changes from the original that
seems to have caused a fair amount of chaos. I won't go into those here.
> Or is it just 'close enough'? Could it be that translation has
> 'dulled' the truth of the story, like what happened with so many other
> Anime, like 'Card Captors'?
As I explained above, translation of the meaning rather then word tends to
clear things up rather then dull them. Direct translations tend to dull
things up. At least if you do not know what the original text is suppose
to mean.
> How would we know if errors/mistranslations/'story fade' has occured?
Well, you compare what the ADV and the consultant put together with the
originals and direct translations. Then you consider what each translation
means in both Cultures. That is, does what the translation mean in the
western culture the equivalent of what the original means in Japan? If
they match then you have a good translation.
> #7- I noticed in a previous post that information & dialogue from the
> 'Director's Cuts' of the TV series was used to counter the points &
> theories I raised.
That's good, the learning process is helped when the student notices the
lesson.
> Do you also use material from the Manga version of NGE to further
> refine your theories & 'world view' of NGE, or do you prefer to only
> use the various TV & Film sources? I ask, because in Japan, different
> storylines are often used in the conversion from Anime to Manga & vice
> versa.
The Manga has been recreated by a different man and his own slightly
different interpretation of NGE. Whilst the Manga is an interesting
comparative study, it's not considered cannon as it has not been
constructed by the same people who originally developed NGE.
--
Kind regards
Disaster
Disaster's Fan Fiction - http://www.disfanfic.net
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Disaster
> Frank White wrote:
> > Dude.
> >
> > Tell yourself it's just a TV show, and you really should relax!
>
> NGE is really only a MST??? (<-Yes! Three!)
> *booooohohohohohoooo**tears flooding the group, drownig everybody*
........ *THWACK*
Disaster
[Snip FW stuff]
> Dude.
>
> Tell yourself it's just a TV show, and you really should relax!
>
> (Also, most of your questions involve technical matters we don't
> have info on. We can speculate, but being able to answer
> conclusively one way or the other?
>
> No can do.)
>
> Best of luck, anyway!
Don't mind Frank, he has apparently not contemplated NGE enough yet. Given
a few more years he may catch up.
I enjoy your questions although you write an awful lot and it takes a
while to gather the will and effort to reply.
Michael Wignall
>
> (And yes, Aussies still use this greeting on a regular basis,
> although Tourists who are unlucky enough to only ever
> visit the 'Little Americas' of our Main Cities may not hear it...
> Hey, the City Folk even named a sports club 'Broncos', rather
> than 'Brumbies'...)
So you are from Queensland as well. It's a small world after all.
> #1-
<Snip>
> Using the info above I checked official illustrations, & standard
> Pediatric Growth Charts. From my calculations, I estimate that
> Rei#1's body was too big for a five year old, & is closer to that of
> child in the 9-10 year age range.
A quick google search informs me that the average height of a five
year old girl is 108.4 cm. While the average height of a ten year old
girl is 138.3 cm and the average height of a fourteen year old girl is
160.4 cm
As I said in my previous post. I think that Rei-001 appears to be
5 years old. You stated that Rei-001 appeared to be about two
and a 1/4 heads shorter than Rei-002 (who you say was 6 heads
high).
Lets say Rei-002 is 160 cm - 6 heads - tall. Two and a quarter
heads equals 60 cm, so by your calculations Rei-001 would be
around 100 cm tall. Which is a lot closer to 108 cm (the average
age of a 5 year old girl) than it is to 138 cm (the average age of
a 10 year old girl)
> MUCH closer!
I suggest you take a look at those sequences again. Rei-001
appears very much like a 5 year old girl to me, and very much
not like a 10 year old girl.
> If as others have said, Rei#1 was only 5 years old when she
> died, did that refer to the actual age in years of her (Rei Clone)
> body's existence, rather than its (Rei Clone's) apparent physical
> development, & also of the number of years in which her mind
> (Rei's mind, NOT Lillith's Soul) actually had time in which to
> grow & develop into the child Rei#1 was?
The "Encyclopaedia of Neon Genesis Evangelion III" states that
Rei was 5 when Naoko killed here in 2010. There is no further
clarification of what that means as far as I am aware.
> Admittedly, Gendo IS one the two tallest of the Main Cast,
> with only Fuyutsuki coming close to him (then Kaji), so any
> child would look shorter in comparison to Gendo than when
> compared to other people...
Gendou is the tallest main character we see in the series (then
Fuyutsuki, then Kaji) , Rei is the second shortest, being only
taller than Kensuke.
> #2- when Shinji is rebuilt by Unit 1 (NOT by Ritsuko),
> it happens after his entry plug disgorges his plugsuit & the
> LCL that is supposed to contain him. We hear a noise &
> see that a naked Shinji is lying in a pool of liquid on the
> catwalk some distance from Misato, & just below the 'core'
> of the EVA. However, we also notice that the catwalk is
> DRY between Shinj's pool, & where Misato is.
I think it is irrelevant whether in the end Shinji was rebuilt
but Ritsuko or someone/thing else (personally I think
Shinji himself chose to return, original he didn't want to
come back, "Don't you want to come back, Shinji-kun?"
remarks Ritsuko, however in the end I think he realises
where his is and decides to return to physical form, to
leave the Evas).
That is all irrelevant though because the technology was
there to "salvage" him from the entry plug, whether they
actually used it or not on Shinji isn't the issue (they indeed
tried, but like Yui, Shinji originally didn't want to come).
The point is that this "salvage" operation is designed to
reconstruct the person's body and put their soul back into
it. It is the same process that they tried to use on Yui in
2005. Yui however didn't want to come, and the experiment
ultimately failed. It did however in my opinion have a rather
strange side effect, that side effect was Rei.
> Since this indicates that Shinji was NOT rebuilt from the
> contents of the Entry plug, but from materials obtained
> from elsewhere in the EVA, this raises a serious question.
Shinji is wet when he comes out, and the Entry Plug is supposed
to sit "within" the Core during the operation of the Evas
(according to some cross sections in an artbook that I _really_
wish I had scans of).
> If EVA's are Clones of Angels (Kaworu calls Unit2 'Adam's
> Dark Shadow', meaning it doesn't have the Light of Adam's
> Soul in it), & if Angels are NOT made of normal terrestrial
> material, it follows that EVA's are also NOT made of normal
> matter.
For starters Eva-01 is a clone of Lilith. Lilith is the progenitor
of Humanity, all of Humanity came from Lilith.
Humanity is _NOT_ made of "normal" terrestrial matter.
Lilith came as a "foreign" being just like Adam. She is a source
of life in her own right. Lilith is the progenitor of Humanity, while
Adam is the progenitor of the Angels. Humanity as the children
of Lilith as no more made out of "normal terrestrial material"
than the Angels are.
> If that is so, is Shinji now made of Angel material like the Eva's
> are? Remembering of course, that the LCL used in the Plugs
> is supposed to be material from 'Lillith' down in the basement
> to start with.
Primordial soup is the basic buliding block for _everything_
I think the Shinji that was reconstructed is genetically
identical to the Shinji that was absorbed.
> If so, is this proof that the information in the Human
> Genome can be 'recreated' using Angel material?
I think you are operating under a misunderstanding here.
There is nothing more "foreign" about Angel genetics than
Human genetics, they are merely different (and only 0.03%
different at that). Some beings are "Children of Adam", ie,
the Angels, and those beings are 0.03% different to the
Children of Lilith, ie Humanity. Shinji, a child of Lilith, a
human, is merely reconstructed, as Shinji a child of Lilith,
a human. He isn't reconstructed as an "Angel".
> #3- Is Ritsuko really such an authority on EVA's?
Yes she is, more than anyone else left "alive". Ritsuko
is head of Project E. She is in direct charge of the Evas
development.
> Can she be wrong about the important matters?
No one is infallible. However please note in the case we are
discussing she specifically say "machigai naku" which means
"without a doubt". She didn't say "I think", or "It could be",
she was absolutely definite it was after her "without a doubt".
Ritsuko is a scientist, a logical person, such a statement would
not be made lightly.
> After all, Ritsuko DID say 'That's not possible' when Unit
> 1 moves on its own to project Shinji.
Again, different circumstances. That was a reaction to an event
that just happened, not a calculated analytical assessment of the
cause of an event that has taken place previously.
> I ask, because it was pointed out that Ritsuko WAS an
> authority on EVA's, especially Unit 0's motives when
> going berserk.
Ritsuko is the one everyone looks to for explanations about
both the first and second incidents. She states her views,
and how strongly she holds them, ie "without a doubt".
> If this is so, then Ritsuko's denial of the Tank Clones being
> Human, but just 'things with human form', would mean that
> Rei#2 is NOT human, but merely looks like one.
The Clones in the tank don't have souls. Rei is most definitely
Human, she has a Human body and the soul of the progenitor
of Humanity (which the NERV crew define as "Human" in EoE).
> #4- When Shinji was absorbed, his Mind/Soul still existed
> as 'Shinji', even though his body did not.
>
> Since in the NGE world a 'person' can exist separate to
> their body, or even WITHOUT a body, does that mean
> a person can be created without the need for a
> corresponding body?
I don't think so considering half the point of the original ending
episodes was to put forward the view that a person's "self" is
based on the perception of others, and is built up through
interactions with others.
Without any physical form at all, it is impossible to interact
with other people, to form bonds, to have relationships.
This is vital to the creation of a "being known as me".
It was also the point of EoE, in that people need to be
separate individuals (via their physical forms) in order to
interaction (and sometimes cause pain to each other) and
this is necessary to live, to not run away.
> #5-
<Snip>
> If a person has not been 'Born', how could they then have
> a 'birthday', a day on which they celebrate an event they
> never qualified for?
This is why I consider the "birth" in the Eva Universe to signify
the date that the "being" obtained it's soul. In Rei's case, the date
which she (Yui's reconstructed body) obtained Lilith's soul.
> #6 -
<Snip>
> What did the 'preparation' of Clones in Terminal Dogma
> really entail?
I personally think it involved "harvesting" other Rei clones
from Lilith and placing them within the tank of LCL.
> How would we know if errors/mistranslations/'story
> fade' has occured?
Discuss these things here (and similar places) long enough
and you will begin to discover the discrepancies in different
translations. We discussed a number of them here just a
couple of months ago. Anything major has been discussed
repeatedly and you will be able to find threads on them in
google.
> #7- I noticed in a previous post that information & dialogue
> from the 'Director's Cuts' of the TV series was used to
> counter the points & theories I raised.
>
> Do you also use material from the Manga version of NGE
> to further refine your theories & 'world view' of NGE, or
> do you prefer to only use the various TV & Film sources?
> I ask, because in Japan, different storylines are often used
> in the conversion from Anime to Manga & vice versa.
I don't consider the Manga canon at all (it's Sadamoto's
work, not Anno's). I consider the Japanese "Video" versions
of episodes 21-24 "more" canon than the TV versions. The
"Video" versions who what the creator truly wanted without
hindrance of such pesky things as time and money ^^ The
video versions offered the chance to go back and "do it right"
as well as giving a "treat for the fans". I consider extra information
within them particular valid, especially since it was specifically
chosen to add a new dimension to those episodes.
--
Michael Wignall
"Tomorrow's just an excuse away..."
Disaster
> "DBM" <dbmacp...@uq.net.au> wrote:
> I think it is irrelevant whether in the end Shinji was rebuilt
> but Ritsuko or someone/thing else (personally I think
> Shinji himself chose to return, original he didn't want to
> come back, "Don't you want to come back, Shinji-kun?"
> remarks Ritsuko, however in the end I think he realises
> where his is and decides to return to physical form, to
> leave the Evas).
I think it's more like he realizes that his mother is there and is looking
after him so he feels safer returning. Where there any words in those
scene's? All I can remember is imagery.
> That is all irrelevant though because the technology was
> there to "salvage" him from the entry plug, whether they
> actually used it or not on Shinji isn't the issue (they indeed
> tried, but like Yui, Shinji originally didn't want to come).
> The point is that this "salvage" operation is designed to
> reconstruct the person's body and put their soul back into
> it. It is the same process that they tried to use on Yui in
> 2005. Yui however didn't want to come, and the experiment
> ultimately failed. It did however in my opinion have a rather
> strange side effect, that side effect was Rei.
Of course it was. Which leads me to speculate on whether they really
failed? If they meant to get Yui out then yes they did fail because Yui
did not want to return. However if their purpose was not to get Yui back
but to get Lilith, then they were successful. Why would Lilith want to
come out? Perhaps Yui pushed her? Pure speculation though.
> > If EVA's are Clones of Angels (Kaworu calls Unit2 'Adam's
> > Dark Shadow', meaning it doesn't have the Light of Adam's
> > Soul in it), & if Angels are NOT made of normal terrestrial
> > material, it follows that EVA's are also NOT made of normal
> > matter.
>
> For starters Eva-01 is a clone of Lilith. Lilith is the progenitor
> of Humanity, all of Humanity came from Lilith.
I think that's why he referred to Unit 02. Still, Eva's are not clones of
Angel's in the terminology we use to refer to entities within NGE. Eva's
are clones of sources of life.
> Humanity is _NOT_ made of "normal" terrestrial matter.
>
> Lilith came as a "foreign" being just like Adam. She is a source
> of life in her own right. Lilith is the progenitor of Humanity, while
> Adam is the progenitor of the Angels. Humanity as the children
> of Lilith as no more made out of "normal terrestrial material"
> than the Angels are.
I have a problem with the use of "terrestrial" here. We all know that they
came from 1st Impact. However the whole Adam vs. Lilith thing is often
referred to as a battle for the right to inherit the earth, or existence.
Does this not then make us the native material? I know that we use
terrestrial references because someone is thinking alien and not alien,
this is a bad frame of mind to get into and obviously it has caused some
problems. It is not the first time that Michael and others have pointed
out that we are very similar to Adam's "offspring" and that Adam and
Lilith arrived at the same time for the same purpose made of the same
stuff. Angel's are not alien's, they are cousins.
> I think you are operating under a misunderstanding here.
> There is nothing more "foreign" about Angel genetics than
> Human genetics, they are merely different (and only 0.03%
> different at that). Some beings are "Children of Adam", ie,
> the Angels, and those beings are 0.03% different to the
> Children of Lilith, ie Humanity. Shinji, a child of Lilith, a
> human, is merely reconstructed, as Shinji a child of Lilith,
> a human. He isn't reconstructed as an "Angel".
That would be a more direct way to put it.
> > #3- Is Ritsuko really such an authority on EVA's?
>
> Yes she is, more than anyone else left "alive". Ritsuko
> is head of Project E. She is in direct charge of the Evas
> development.
I would say that Gendo might know more. We have nothing on this though as
Yui was really the one who apparently did the work. Though Gendo seems to
know his wife, who happens to be the Eva, and to a degree the nature of
the beast in general. I would through Gendo as a candidate for this
position but I wouldn't seriously bet a lot on him.
> > Can she be wrong about the important matters?
>
> No one is infallible. However please note in the case we are
> discussing she specifically say "machigai naku" which means
> "without a doubt". She didn't say "I think", or "It could be",
> she was absolutely definite it was after her "without a doubt".
> Ritsuko is a scientist, a logical person, such a statement would
> not be made lightly.
Not to mention that we are not talking about a technical fact or anything.
This is Ritsuko's opinion, no matter how right or certain she is, it's not
part of her job, strictly speaking.
> > After all, Ritsuko DID say 'That's not possible' when Unit
> > 1 moves on its own to project Shinji.
>
> Again, different circumstances. That was a reaction to an event
> that just happened, not a calculated analytical assessment of the
> cause of an event that has taken place previously.
It seems to be that some of us think that everything about Eva is a
recorded fact in NGE. This is not so. Evidently, from the moods, words and
reactions of Kozo, Ritsuko, Gendo(look closely) and even Misato. As an
example of Gendo's operating procedures, you'll remember that he ordered
the installation of the Dummy Plug system even though Ritsuko told him
that she couldn't monitor the system properly.
> > Since in the NGE world a 'person' can exist separate to
> > their body, or even WITHOUT a body, does that mean
> > a person can be created without the need for a
> > corresponding body?
I want to add something that I didn't do in my own reply to this. Shinji
was not without a body. He shared the Eva's body with his mother whilst
his own body was broken down. So this does not tell us that a soul can
exist without a body.
> This is why I consider the "birth" in the Eva Universe to signify
> the date that the "being" obtained it's soul. In Rei's case, the date
> which she (Yui's reconstructed body) obtained Lilith's soul.
Well that would reset the clock every time she died, which is obviously
not the case here. However, it's easy to view the statement in a slightly
different light that starts the count on the first time Rei is "born" by
the criteria you state.
> > How would we know if errors/mistranslations/'story
> > fade' has occured?
>
> Discuss these things here (and similar places) long enough
> and you will begin to discover the discrepancies in different
> translations. We discussed a number of them here just a
> couple of months ago. Anything major has been discussed
> repeatedly and you will be able to find threads on them in
> google.
Just take a lot of spare time that you'll never want back with you.
> I don't consider the Manga canon at all (it's Sadamoto's
> work, not Anno's). I consider the Japanese "Video" versions
> of episodes 21-24 "more" canon than the TV versions. The
> "Video" versions who what the creator truly wanted without
> hindrance of such pesky things as time and money ^^ The
> video versions offered the chance to go back and "do it right"
> as well as giving a "treat for the fans". I consider extra information
> within them particular valid, especially since it was specifically
> chosen to add a new dimension to those episodes.
I consider the term "treat" to be insulting. But that's just today!
Richard Liang
>>#1- when we first see Rei#1 in the TV series (episode 21), she is with
>>Gendo, & the top of her head is about the bottom of where Gendo's belt
>>would be. Official art of Rei#2 (or Rei#3) in her plugsuit has her
>>almost as tall as Gendo's shoulder. Life-size models of Rei in her
>>plugsuit quote her as being 157-160 cm tall.
>>
>>Official illustrations of Rei#2 have her drawn with the 6 heads tall
>>format, & Chibi Rei is about a head, a head & a 1/4 (Rei#2 head sizes)
>>shorter compared to Gendo's Torso.
>>
>>Using the info above I checked official illustrations, & standard
>>Pediatric Growth Charts. From my calculations, I estimate that
>>Rei#1's body was too big for a five year old, & is closer to that of
>>child in the 9-10 year age range.
>>
>>MUCH closer!
>>
>>
>
>Did you do a comparison against other Anime characters of similar ages?
>Did it occur to you that we have already determined that Rei must be
>growing at an accelerated rate, at least physically.
>
>
Actually I'd say that this research goes to support what I originally
felt, which is that Rei was only accelerated in growth at first,
probably when she was still "in the test tube." Afterwards, at least
from 2010 on, she ages normally. I wasn't sure though whether or not
children doubled in height between ages 9 and 14, but if it's in the
pediatric growth charts, then that makes it far more likely.
Richard
Richard Liang
>A quick google search informs me that the average height of a five
>year old girl is 108.4 cm. While the average height of a ten year old
>girl is 138.3 cm and the average height of a fourteen year old girl is
>160.4 cm
>
>As I said in my previous post. I think that Rei-001 appears to be
>5 years old. You stated that Rei-001 appeared to be about two
>and a 1/4 heads shorter than Rei-002 (who you say was 6 heads
>high).
>
>Lets say Rei-002 is 160 cm - 6 heads - tall. Two and a quarter
>heads equals 60 cm, so by your calculations Rei-001 would be
>around 100 cm tall. Which is a lot closer to 108 cm (the average
>age of a 5 year old girl) than it is to 138 cm (the average age of
>a 10 year old girl)
>
>
>
>>MUCH closer!
>>
>>
>
>I suggest you take a look at those sequences again. Rei-001
>appears very much like a 5 year old girl to me, and very much
>not like a 10 year old girl.
>
If *this* is true then it must be that Rei undergoes accelerated growth,
and you can disregard my previous reply to Disaster's post.
Richard
Frank White
says...
>
>"Frank White" <fwhite*NOSPAM*@colfax.com> wrote:
>[Snip FW stuff]
>> Dude.
>>
>> Tell yourself it's just a TV show, and you really should relax!
>>
>> (Also, most of your questions involve technical matters we don't
>> have info on. We can speculate, but being able to answer
>> conclusively one way or the other?
>>
>> No can do.)
>>
>> Best of luck, anyway!
>
>Don't mind Frank, he has apparently not contemplated NGE enough yet.
Given
>a few more years he may catch up.
'Ere now. I'll pit my ability to BS against anyone's.
Well, except for those old puds who hang out in
retirement homes (used to cluster in the general stores
and service stations before they got booted out) and
who have been slinging crud since the day they were
born. They're BS masters.
But the guy asked for real answers. We don't have many
of those in NGE; just speculation. And when I don't know
the answers, I'm honest enough to say so.
FW
DBM
will point out what I SAID in my original message, as well as make a
quick correction...
Quote...
Official illustrations of Rei#2 have her drawn with the 6 heads tall
format, & Chibi Rei is about a head, a head & a 1/4 (Rei#2 head sizes)
shorter compared to Gendo's Torso.
Using the info above I checked official illustrations, & standard
Paediatric Growth Charts. From my calculations, I estimate that
Rei#1's body was too big for a five year old, & is closer to that of
child in the 9-10 year age range.
End Quote...
Note I said "a head", followed by "a head & a 1/4" - I think I may
have then confused you with the comment in brackets of '(Rei#2 head
sizes)"
I did NOT say 2 head sizes, & I apologise if my wording was confusing,
I SHOULD have said, 'a head', OR 'head & a 1/4'.
By your OWN research, you confirm my observation that a character 1
head shorter than Rei-2 in a plugsuit matches the height of a 10-year
old child. I allowed the extra 1/4 due to difficulties in measuring,
as a maximum allowable error margin.
If you conduct proportional analysis of the image of Rei-1 standing
beside Gendo, to the image of Rei-2 standing beside Gendo, you will
find my calculations to be near enough to what I have stated.
Now the CORRECTION that another pointed out I should make!
When I made the comment 'Chibi-Rei', I was referring to the Rei first
seen standing beside Gendo when Naoko & Ritsuko meet Rei-1 for the
first time.
As was since pointed out to me, the term 'Chibi-Rei', while actually
meaning 'little-Rei', is more commonly applied to the 'child' Rei seen
in the train car sequences & in people's minds.
I accept I made another error in wording, I apologise.
However, my error reminds me that I should point out that Shinji
himself is drawn at several different stages in 'childhood', as a baby
at his mother's breast, as the 'toddler' unwittingly waving 'bye-bye'
to his mother, as the crying child deserted by his father, & as the
'Chibi-Shinji' on the trains, & in people's minds.
Sorry, but I haven't conducted any sort of in-depth image analysis of
the 'train' version of Chibi-Rei, but *IF* memory serves me correctly,
she IS drawn in a more childish fashion.
I will concede that the 'Chibi-Rei' on the Trains, & in people's minds
may look more childlike than Rei-1 does when first seen with Gendo, &
may actually be of a smaller size than Rei-1 was when first seen with
Gendo. Whether the drawing of the 'train' version is more 'childish'
looking, or for that matter, smaller in stature, is not something I
feel confident enough to comment on at this time.
However, *IF* the 'train' version of Chibi-Rei *IS* drawn as smaller
or more childish looking than when Rei-1 is first seen with Gendo,
would that have any sort of significance, other than to indicate that
Rei-1 was once a person of that height/appearance, or for that matter,
just an attempt by Gainax to cash in on readily creatable 'public
sympathy' for a character drawn as a child?
Most of my theorising has been over plot development points that could
be used in a Fan fiction I'm writing. Admittedly, it IS an 'Alternate
Universe' one, but one that I am trying to build a 'consistent' plot
development throughout, a plot development that while it may NOT be to
'exact canon' specifications, would still explain several of the
mysteries of the show to my satisfaction.
Or, at least explain things from the point of view of someone who
realises that since he is NOT Japanese, he will probably never 'get'
all the subtle in-jokes & cultural references that NGE is based on.
Things like 'what's in a name', especially about characters that can
be read as Yui, & how they are used for Genetic Engineering terms.
Things that many Japanese would KNOW at a subconscious level.
Things like Rei's white swimsuit being a favourite 'icon' for
cheesecake photographs of young teenage models - not that I intimate
that this has ANYTHING to do with her popularity. However, it DOES
make you wonder if Rei was 'pre-packaged' for certain sections of the
consumer market, especially given the 'figures' Rei-2 & Rei-3 were
drawn with.
One thing that bothers me about the AT Fields in Terminal Dogma when
Kaworu came a-knocking... If Lillith's Soul generates her AT Field,
then it appears to be in two places at once - one generated by the
Lillith construct, the other generated by Rei-3. (Refer previous post
for a 'blow-by-blow' accounting, & for a 'split-soul' theory based on
actual religious teachings that may be of some significance.)
As is the fact that despite not 'having a soul', the embryonic Adam is
still 'alive', & regenerating itself. As apparently, was Lillith - In
one of the movies (not sure which), Rei removes the Lance from
Lillith, & Lillith instantly regenerates her missing legs. Since
Lillith already had so many small legs sticking out of her torso, this
raises the question, was the Lance some sort of 'paralytic agent' that
prevented Lillith from regenerating?
One of the things I have been interested in finding out, is the actual
material construction of the Angels & etc - for despite Lillith being
Humanity's progenitor, no human is her size, & it may appear, no human
is composed of exactly the same materials she is.
No Human has the capacity to generate the powerful AT field that
Lillith & the Angels do, & no human has an S2 organ. Physics also
come into things, with the questions raised by potential differences
in materials used as building blocks for Humanity.
As various religious texts state, Humanity was made from dust/soil.
Meaning that whatever the force BEHIND our creation, we are made of
THIS world's materials.
As proof? All of the materials in a Human's body are found on Earth,
even surprise, , such 'essential' ingredients as Strontium.
Strontium is used in the immune system, (if memory serves), & it is
for THIS reason, that a 'variation' or 'isotope' of the element is so
dangerous to Humans. Strontium 90 is the unstable radioactive isotope
of Strontium that is present in A-Bomb fallout. Because chemically,
it is almost exactly the same as 'normal' Strontium, it can be
assimilated into the body, & cause damage to any cell when it 'decays'
& throws off radiation.
It doesn't stop there. Chemical compounds may have their atoms
arranged in different orders (isomers) that can cause havoc - one
isomer may be neutral, the other may be toxic. When this happens to a
person's DNA, it may herald the creation of a cancer.
Matter is affected by the physics involved in its creation, & in the
environment it finds itself. For example, Hydrogen is a gas at room
temperature, but on Jupiter, Hydrogen may be so condensed &
pressurised in Jupiter's planetary core that the element has
'metallic' properties.
Then again, we speak of 'absolute zero', a point at which atomic
activity stops. Modern science now theorises the existence of a set
of physics BEYOND 'absolute Zero'.
Have you ever put your hand in boiling water? If you did you would
always scald yourself, right? Wrong. There are circumstances under
which water will boil at temperatures so low that you CANNOT be
scalded by it. It is a little matter of atmospheric pressure - but
don't take my word for it, just ask any Mountaineer - THEY can tell
you of water that boils yet is only luke-warm.
When Ritsuko tries to analyse the Angels, she keeps getting an 'unable
to analyse' error, indicating that the Angels contain compounds,
elements, isomers or isotopes that are unknown, and/or un-analysable
by her equipment. This indicates that the materials are NOT of this
world, or at least, if they are of this world, are so rare as to be
unknown & thus un-analysable to the Future Science & Super Computers
of 2015. Which, judging by the existence of the technology behind the
MAGI, would far exceed our own.
One item of great concern, is the Angel's 'power core', the S2 organ
that Shinji's EVA ate. SEELE was somewhat upset about that little
matter, & the question arises, were the S2 power organs deliberately
left out of the EVA's for safety reasons? Or, was the creation of the
S2 power organ too 'complex' at the time of creation of the EVA's?
Then again, there is another explanation...
NERV obtained portions of an S2 power organ when Shinji fought the
'whip-lash' Angel. Question, did Shinji unwittingly supply NERV with
more than a mere 'biological sample', but perhaps with an organ
containing rare or non-terrestrial (& thus non-analysable) materials?
Materials that were finally available in enough quantity to ALLOW the
creation of NERV's own S2 organ, the one that absorbed/blew up the
American branch?
Adolf Hitler was trying to build an Atomic Bomb using Heavy water, or
H2O where the Hydrogen atoms were an 'isotope' of hydrogen known as
deuterium. Recently, there was a hubbub about 'cold fusion', where
atoms underwent nuclear fusion in a normal lab, without the need for
the forces found in the cores of stars or hydrogen bombs.
Fact - Many modern earphones make use of 'rare-earth magnets' to
deliver high-fidelity sound. Something UNAVAILABLE before the alloy
technology became cheap enough & common enough.
I have made comments about 'non-terrestrial' materials, particularly
since Ritsuko with all her equipment COULDN'T analyse some of the
materials found in Angels. Shinji's EVA ate the S2 power core of an
Angel, supposedly 'assimilating it' as the EVA did the arm it tore off
the Angel...
Hang about? Tore OFF the Angel? Either Unit 1 changed the material
of the Angel's arm during assimilation, or else Unit 1, the 'Clone' of
Lillith & the Angels are created of the SAME material.
The same materials that Ritsuko CANNOT analyse!
Yours, dbmacp...@INHIBITIONSuq.net.au
Remove INHIBITIONS to reply.
Michael Wignall
> Dear Mr. Wignall, I realise it was late when I posted my message, so I
> will point out what I SAID in my original message, as well as make a
> quick correction...
>
> Quote...
> End Quote...
>
> Note I said "a head", followed by "a head & a 1/4" - I think
> I may have then confused you with the comment in brackets
> of '(Rei#2 head sizes)"
>
> I did NOT say 2 head sizes, & I apologise if my wording was
> confusing, I SHOULD have said, 'a head', OR 'head & a 1/4'.
Ah well in that case I disagree completely about that difference.
I was too lazy to actually check before, but now that you have
pressed it I have gone to EoE where the three Rei's are standing
over Gendou's body. Here is a screen capture of that scene.
> By your OWN research, you confirm my observation that
> a character 1 head shorter than Rei-2 in a plugsuit matches
> the height of a 10-year old child. I allowed the extra 1/4
> due to difficulties in measuring, as a maximum allowable
> error margin.
No I don't confirm your observation, I merely used your
stated observation. As I have shown above your stated
observation is clearly wrong. Rei-001 is only about half
the size of Rei-002 and Rei-003. She most certainly does
not match the height of an average 10 year old girl.
> If you conduct proportional analysis of the image of Rei-1
> standing beside Gendo, to the image of Rei-2 standing
> beside Gendo, you will find my calculations to be near
> enough to what I have stated.
If you look at the image of Rei-001 standing next to Rei-002
you will see quite clearly that you calculations are very much
different to how big each of them actually is.
Rei-001 is _very_ much shorter than Rei-002. She appears
to be much closer to a 5 year old girl than a 10 year old girl,
especially when compared to Rei-002's apparent 14 year old
body.
Richard Liang
How true :( I must admit, although there are a whole bunch of theories
out there I am still skeptical of 90% of them. I think that's one of
the great things about NGE... the story is somewhat muddy, even flawed.
But that's just a byproduct of it being so ambitious and on such a
grand scale.
Richard
Michael Wignall
news:agtj8g$eqf$1...@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au...
Please ignore the other smaller version of this post. It is
quite annoying when you send off your response before
you actually finish it. Here is the finished version.
> Quote...
<Snip Quote>>
> End Quote...
>
> Note I said "a head", followed by "a head & a 1/4" - I think
> I may have then confused you with the comment in brackets
> of '(Rei#2 head sizes)"
>
> I did NOT say 2 head sizes, & I apologise if my wording was
> confusing, I SHOULD have said, 'a head', OR 'head & a 1/4'.
Ah well in that case I disagree completely about that difference.
I was too lazy to actually check before, but now that you have
pressed it I have gone to EoE where the three Rei's are standing
over Gendou's body. Here is a screen capture of that scene.
http://homepage.powerup.com.au/~wignall/Trinity.jpg
I think this scene shows quite clearly the difference in size
between the Reis.
> By your OWN research, you confirm my observation that
> a character 1 head shorter than Rei-2 in a plugsuit matches
> the height of a 10-year old child. I allowed the extra 1/4
> due to difficulties in measuring, as a maximum allowable
> error margin.
No I don't confirm your observation, I merely used your
stated observation. As I have shown above your stated
observation is clearly wrong. Rei-001 is only about half
the size of Rei-002 and Rei-003. She most certainly does
not match the height of an average 10 year old girl.
> If you conduct proportional analysis of the image of Rei-1
> standing beside Gendo, to the image of Rei-2 standing
> beside Gendo, you will find my calculations to be near
> enough to what I have stated.
If you look at the image of Rei-001 standing next to Rei-002
you will see quite clearly that you calculations are very much
different to how big each of them actually is.
Rei-001 is _very_ much shorter than Rei-002. She appears
to be much closer to a 5 year old girl than a 10 year old girl,
especially when compared to Rei-002's apparent 14 year old
body.
> Now the CORRECTION that another pointed out I
> should make!
>
> When I made the comment 'Chibi-Rei', I was referring to
> the Rei first seen standing beside Gendo when Naoko &
> Ritsuko meet Rei-1 for the first time.
>
> As was since pointed out to me, the term 'Chibi-Rei',
> while actually meaning 'little-Rei', is more commonly
> applied to the 'child' Rei seen in the train car sequences
> & in people's minds.
>
> I accept I made another error in wording, I apologise.
It is not a problem. I personally think of Rei-001 when people
say Chibi-Rei anyway so... ^^
> However, my error reminds me that I should point out that
> Shinji himself is drawn at several different stages in 'childhood',
> as a baby at his mother's breast, as the 'toddler' unwittingly
> waving 'bye-bye' to his mother, as the crying child deserted
> by his father, & as the 'Chibi-Shinji' on the trains, & in people's
> minds.
All of Asuka, Shinji and Rei are shown around the 4-5 year old
mark during the series in my opinion. Shinji when his mother "dies",
Asuka when her mother "dies" and Rei-001 when she "dies".
> Sorry, but I haven't conducted any sort of in-depth image
> analysis of the 'train' version of Chibi-Rei, but *IF* memory
> serves me correctly, she IS drawn in a more childish fashion.
The image I posted above is the clearest tool in my opinion to
compare the Reis. It is specifically designed to show each of
the three separate Reis, Rei-001, Rei-002, and Rei-003 who
for a time had had Lilith's soul.
> I will concede that the 'Chibi-Rei' on the Trains, & in
> people's minds may look more childlike than Rei-1 does
> when first seen with Gendo, & may actually be of a
> smaller size than Rei-1 was when first seen with Gendo.
> Whether the drawing of the 'train' version is more 'childish'
> looking, or for that matter, smaller in stature, is not
> something I feel confident enough to comment on at
> this time.
I personally didn't take the "train" Rei isn't account at all. I
can't even remember what she looks like to tell the truth, it
has been considerably more than a year since I last watched
any Eva. My statement that Rei-001 looks to be 5 years old
is based on her appearance in episode 21 (she is very small
in that episode, Ritsuko has to bend right down to talk to her)
as well as the shot in EoE that I have posted above.
> One thing that bothers me about the AT Fields in Terminal
> Dogma when Kaworu came a-knocking... If Lillith's Soul
> generates her AT Field, then it appears to be in two places
> at once - one generated by the Lillith construct, the other
> generated by Rei-3.
I think both Lilith and Adam are exempt from the general rule
that an AT-Field is required to maintain physical form. We
are told that Kaoru is the only one with Adam's soul, yet Adam
maintains physical form. Likewise I think that Lilith can maintain
physical form without her soul. Adam and Lilith are sources of
life and thus I think the normal rules don't apply to them.
> Since Lillith already had so many small legs sticking out of
> her torso, this raises the question, was the Lance some sort
> of 'paralytic agent' that prevented Lillith from regenerating?
I think it is the opposite. I think it acts as a catalyst for the
regeneration.
Lilith "lost" her legs in 2004 (they were "made" into Eva-01). She
had been sitting down in terminal dogma for around 11 years before
the Lance was retrieved from the South Pole and Rei (in Eva-00)
stuck it into her (in the end of episode 14). Only 8 episodes later
Rei (again in Eva-00) pulls the Lance out and Lilith regenerates her
legs.
After sitting down in terminal dogma for 11 years without regenerating
it only took 8 episodes (a couple of months at most) with the lance in
her for her to be able to regenerate fully when the lance is removed.
> One of the things I have been interested in finding out, is the
> actual material construction of the Angels & etc - for despite
> Lillith being Humanity's progenitor, no human is her size, & it
> may appear, no human is composed of exactly the same
> materials she is.
Our form is limited by our minds. This is shown exceedingly well
in EoE where Lilith's body takes on Rei's form, takes on Yui's form.
The soul directly affects the physical form. If everything is essentially
made up of the same materials then the form is defined by the soul.
After all it is said that the Angels were given the "Fruit of Life" while
Humans got the "Fruit of Wisdom".
> No Human has the capacity to generate the powerful AT field
> that Lillith & the Angels do, & no human has an S2 organ.
> Physics also come into things, with the questions raised by
> potential differences in materials used as building blocks for
> Humanity.
You can't say for certain that Humans cannot produce similar
AT Fields. Most humans don't even realise they have AT Fields.
Yui in Eva-01 produces an extremely strong AT Field. The ATF
is produced by the soul, just because most humans don't realise
they can project one doesn't mean they can't.
> As various religious texts state, Humanity was made from
> dust/soil. Meaning that whatever the force BEHIND our
> creation, we are made of THIS world's materials.
Eva doesn't follow "various religious texts". It sets down its
own mythology (which isn't so much myth as "fact").
Adam and Lilith came to Earth during the First Impact.
The Angels are the children of Adam.
Humanity are the children of Lilith.
According to Eva dogma it seems that life on this planet
was brought about by the coming to earth of Adam and
Lilith. They didn't start out here.
> As proof? All of the materials in a Human's body are
> found on Earth, even surprise, , such 'essential' ingredients
> as Strontium.
Just becuase they are found on Earth doesn't mean they were
generated here. They could quite easily have been introduced,
(say 4 billion years ago, at the time of the Great Impact).
<Snip Physics and Chemistry lesson>
I'm an Engineer; I did physics and chemistry both at highschool
and at University. I've played little games of boiling cold water
in a partial vacuum. How does this relate to Eva though? You
talk about the difference between Angels and the so called
"terrestrial" humans. What I am saying is that Humans, just like
Angels, are born from "sources of Life" who did not originate on
this planet.
So Ritsuko doesn't know everything about the Angels, that is
not surprising, they are beings from a completely different source
of life to humans. There are attributes about Angels that human
science (even the 2015 version) is unable to explain because
they simply don't have enough information. This doesn't mean
that _everything_ about humanity isn't similarity "foreign", it just
means that we have had a lot longer than 15 years to study it.
> One item of great concern, is the Angel's 'power core', the
> S2 organ that Shinji's EVA ate. SEELE was somewhat
> upset about that little matter, & the question arises, were the
> S2 power organs deliberately left out of the EVA's for safety
> reasons? Or, was the creation of the S2 power organ too
> 'complex' at the time of creation of the EVA's?
The Super-Solenoid theory was used to explain the power of
the "being" they found at the South Pole. Eva-04 was destroyed
while testing the S2 Engine, however SEELE finally managed to
use the S2 Engines in the Mass Production Evas. I think it is
merely a matter of technological prowess. They knew the theory
they just had to make it work.
> I have made comments about 'non-terrestrial' materials,
> particularly since Ritsuko with all her equipment COULDN'T
> analyse some of the materials found in Angels. Shinji's EVA
> ate the S2 power core of an Angel, supposedly 'assimilating it'
> as the EVA did the arm it tore off the Angel...
>
> Hang about? Tore OFF the Angel? Either Unit 1 changed
> the material of the Angel's arm during assimilation, or else
> Unit 1, the 'Clone' of Lillith & the Angels are created of the
> SAME material.
>
> The same materials that Ritsuko CANNOT analyse!
Again, just because she can't analyse it, doesn't make it any more
"non-terrestrial" than Humanities make-up. There are distinct
differences between the physical forms of the Angels and Humanity.
The Angels are born from Adam, they are made of different things
than Humanity is because of this. Adam and Lilith are similar but
different entities, their children likewise are similar but different.
The Eva are not Children of either Adam or Lilith but rather
direct clones of one or the other. Eva-01 is a clone of Lilith, in
fact Eva-01 was made directly out of Lilith's legs, which the other
Evas are clones of Adam.
It is also clear that matter can be formed and altered by the soul.
Rei, who possesses Lilith's soul, reshapes Lilith's form into Yui's
form. _Everyone_ who loses physical form can recreate themselves
around their soul from all the constituent materials that are now
floating around in the sea of LCL on Earth.
My point is, and has always been, that these "constituent elements"
which form life, though some appearing perhaps naturally on Earth,
are only brought together to form "Life" by Adam and Lilith, who
are wholly foreign, non-terrestrial beings.
I think this passage from episode 26 sums up what I am saying the
best. From the base starting point of _everything_ originating from
either Adam or Lilith, "alien" beings, we have this train of thought.
----
FUYUTSUKI: You can change yourself, as well.
GENDO: Because the thing that forms your shape is your mind,
and its interaction with the world that surrounds you.
RITSUKO: You can do anything here, because this is your world.
MISATO: This is the shape of your reality.
----
You will note that as this is said, the shapes portrayed are very
"Angel-like" in nature.
Plus of coures there is Misato's comments from EoE.
---
Shinji, we humans were born from a being called Lilith,
who is the source of life just like Adam. We are the 18th
Angel. The other Angels are possibilities of what we might
have become - humans that gave up human form. Sadly,
we had to reject each other - even though we're all human...
---
Basically what I am saying is that just because some things
are unknown, it doesn't mean they are innately "different" to
what is known.
BTW, where from Queensland are you from, if you don't
mind me asking?
Michael Wignall
to something actually decent.
"DBM" <dbmacp...@uq.net.au> wrote in message
news:agtj8g$eqf$1...@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au...
Please ignore the other smaller version of this post. It is
quite annoying when you send off your response before
you actually finish it. Here is the finished version.
> Quote...
<Snip Quote>>
> End Quote...
>
> Note I said "a head", followed by "a head & a 1/4" - I think
> I may have then confused you with the comment in brackets
> of '(Rei#2 head sizes)"
>
> I did NOT say 2 head sizes, & I apologise if my wording was
> confusing, I SHOULD have said, 'a head', OR 'head & a 1/4'.
Ah well in that case I disagree completely about that difference.
I was too lazy to actually check before, but now that you have
pressed it I have gone to EoE where the three Rei's are standing
over Gendou's body. Here is a screen capture of that scene.
http://homepage.powerup.com.au/~wignall/Trinity.jpg
I think this scene shows quite clearly the difference in size
between the Reis.
> By your OWN research, you confirm my observation that
> a character 1 head shorter than Rei-2 in a plugsuit matches
> the height of a 10-year old child. I allowed the extra 1/4
> due to difficulties in measuring, as a maximum allowable
> error margin.
No I don't confirm your observation, I merely used your
stated observation. As I have shown above your stated
observation is clearly wrong. Rei-001 is only about half
the size of Rei-002 and Rei-003. She most certainly does
not match the height of an average 10 year old girl.
> If you conduct proportional analysis of the image of Rei-1
> standing beside Gendo, to the image of Rei-2 standing
> beside Gendo, you will find my calculations to be near
> enough to what I have stated.
If you look at the image of Rei-001 standing next to Rei-002
you will see quite clearly that you calculations are very much
different to how big each of them actually is.
Rei-001 is _very_ much shorter than Rei-002. She appears
to be much closer to a 5 year old girl than a 10 year old girl,
especially when compared to Rei-002's apparent 14 year old
body.
> Now the CORRECTION that another pointed out I
> should make!
>
> When I made the comment 'Chibi-Rei', I was referring to
> the Rei first seen standing beside Gendo when Naoko &
> Ritsuko meet Rei-1 for the first time.
>
> As was since pointed out to me, the term 'Chibi-Rei',
> while actually meaning 'little-Rei', is more commonly
> applied to the 'child' Rei seen in the train car sequences
> & in people's minds.
>
> I accept I made another error in wording, I apologise.
It is not a problem. I personally think of Rei-001 when people
say Chibi-Rei anyway so... ^^
> However, my error reminds me that I should point out that
> Shinji himself is drawn at several different stages in 'childhood',
> as a baby at his mother's breast, as the 'toddler' unwittingly
> waving 'bye-bye' to his mother, as the crying child deserted
> by his father, & as the 'Chibi-Shinji' on the trains, & in people's
> minds.
All of Asuka, Shinji and Rei are shown around the 4-5 year old
mark during the series in my opinion. Shinji when his mother "dies",
Asuka when her mother "dies" and Rei-001 when she "dies".
> Sorry, but I haven't conducted any sort of in-depth image
> analysis of the 'train' version of Chibi-Rei, but *IF* memory
> serves me correctly, she IS drawn in a more childish fashion.
The image I posted above is the clearest tool in my opinion to
compare the Reis. It is specifically designed to show each of
the three separate Reis, Rei-001, Rei-002, and Rei-003 who
for a time had had Lilith's soul.
> I will concede that the 'Chibi-Rei' on the Trains, & in
> people's minds may look more childlike than Rei-1 does
> when first seen with Gendo, & may actually be of a
> smaller size than Rei-1 was when first seen with Gendo.
> Whether the drawing of the 'train' version is more 'childish'
> looking, or for that matter, smaller in stature, is not
> something I feel confident enough to comment on at
> this time.
I personally didn't take the "train" Rei isn't account at all. I
can't even remember what she looks like to tell the truth, it
has been considerably more than a year since I last watched
any Eva. My statement that Rei-001 looks to be 5 years old
is based on her appearance in episode 21 (she is very small
in that episode, Ritsuko has to bend right down to talk to her)
as well as the shot in EoE that I have posted above.
> One thing that bothers me about the AT Fields in Terminal
> Dogma when Kaworu came a-knocking... If Lillith's Soul
> generates her AT Field, then it appears to be in two places
> at once - one generated by the Lillith construct, the other
> generated by Rei-3.
I think both Lilith and Adam are exempt from the general rule
that an AT-Field is required to maintain physical form. We
are told that Kaoru is the only one with Adam's soul, yet Adam
maintains physical form. Likewise I think that Lilith can maintain
physical form without her soul. Adam and Lilith are sources of
life and thus I think the normal rules don't apply to them.
> Since Lillith already had so many small legs sticking out of
> her torso, this raises the question, was the Lance some sort
> of 'paralytic agent' that prevented Lillith from regenerating?
I think it is the opposite. I think it acts as a catalyst for the
regeneration.
Lilith "lost" her legs in 2004 (they were "made" into Eva-01). She
had been sitting down in terminal dogma for around 11 years before
the Lance was retrieved from the South Pole and Rei (in Eva-00)
stuck it into her (in the end of episode 14). Only 8 episodes later
Rei (again in Eva-00) pulls the Lance out and Lilith regenerates her
legs.
After sitting down in terminal dogma for 11 years without regenerating
it only took 8 episodes (a couple of months at most) with the lance in
her for her to be able to regenerate fully when the lance is removed.
> One of the things I have been interested in finding out, is the
> actual material construction of the Angels & etc - for despite
> Lillith being Humanity's progenitor, no human is her size, & it
> may appear, no human is composed of exactly the same
> materials she is.
Our form is limited by our minds. This is shown exceedingly well
in EoE where Lilith's body takes on Rei's form, takes on Yui's form.
The soul directly affects the physical form. If everything is essentially
made up of the same materials then the form is defined by the soul.
After all it is said that the Angels were given the "Fruit of Life" while
Humans got the "Fruit of Wisdom".
> No Human has the capacity to generate the powerful AT field
> that Lillith & the Angels do, & no human has an S2 organ.
> Physics also come into things, with the questions raised by
> potential differences in materials used as building blocks for
> Humanity.
You can't say for certain that Humans cannot produce similar
AT Fields. Most humans don't even realise they have AT Fields.
Yui in Eva-01 produces an extremely strong AT Field. The ATF
is produced by the soul, just because most humans don't realise
they can project one doesn't mean they can't.
> As various religious texts state, Humanity was made from
> dust/soil. Meaning that whatever the force BEHIND our
> creation, we are made of THIS world's materials.
Eva doesn't follow "various religious texts". It sets down its
own mythology (which isn't so much myth as "fact").
Adam and Lilith came to Earth during the First Impact.
The Angels are the children of Adam.
Humanity are the children of Lilith.
According to Eva dogma it seems that life on this planet
was brought about by the coming to earth of Adam and
Lilith. They didn't start out here.
> As proof? All of the materials in a Human's body are
> found on Earth, even surprise, , such 'essential' ingredients
> as Strontium.
Just becuase they are found on Earth doesn't mean they were
generated here. They could quite easily have been introduced,
(say 4 billion years ago, at the time of the Great Impact).
<Snip Physics and Chemistry lesson>
I'm an Engineer; I did physics and chemistry both at highschool
and at University. I've played little games of boiling cold water
in a partial vacuum. How does this relate to Eva though? You
talk about the difference between Angels and the so called
"terrestrial" humans. What I am saying is that Humans, just like
Angels, are born from "sources of Life" who did not originate on
this planet.
So Ritsuko doesn't know everything about the Angels, that is
not surprising, they are beings from a completely different source
of life to humans. There are attributes about Angels that human
science (even the 2015 version) is unable to explain because
they simply don't have enough information. This doesn't mean
that _everything_ about humanity isn't similarity "foreign", it just
means that we have had a lot longer than 15 years to study it.
> One item of great concern, is the Angel's 'power core', the
> S2 organ that Shinji's EVA ate. SEELE was somewhat
> upset about that little matter, & the question arises, were the
> S2 power organs deliberately left out of the EVA's for safety
> reasons? Or, was the creation of the S2 power organ too
> 'complex' at the time of creation of the EVA's?
The Super-Solenoid theory was used to explain the power of
the "being" they found at the South Pole. Eva-04 was destroyed
while testing the S2 Engine, however SEELE finally managed to
use the S2 Engines in the Mass Production Evas. I think it is
merely a matter of technological prowess. They knew the theory
they just had to make it work.
> I have made comments about 'non-terrestrial' materials,
> particularly since Ritsuko with all her equipment COULDN'T
> analyse some of the materials found in Angels. Shinji's EVA
> ate the S2 power core of an Angel, supposedly 'assimilating it'
> as the EVA did the arm it tore off the Angel...
>
> Hang about? Tore OFF the Angel? Either Unit 1 changed
> the material of the Angel's arm during assimilation, or else
> Unit 1, the 'Clone' of Lillith & the Angels are created of the
> SAME material.
>
> The same materials that Ritsuko CANNOT analyse!
Again, just because she can't analyse it, doesn't make it any more
--
Disaster
> How true :( I must admit, although there are a whole bunch of theories
> out there I am still skeptical of 90% of them. I think that's one of
> the great things about NGE... the story is somewhat muddy, even flawed.
> But that's just a byproduct of it being so ambitious and on such a
> grand scale.
Stick around and learn.
Disaster
> disa...@disfanfic.net says...
> > Don't mind Frank, he has apparently not contemplated NGE enough yet.
> > Given a few more years he may catch up.
>
> 'Ere now. I'll pit my ability to BS against anyone's.
> Well, except for those old puds who hang out in
> retirement homes (used to cluster in the general stores
> and service stations before they got booted out) and
> who have been slinging crud since the day they were
> born. They're BS masters.
>
> But the guy asked for real answers. We don't have many
> of those in NGE; just speculation. And when I don't know
> the answers, I'm honest enough to say so.
But we do have many conclusive answers to many difficult questions. Thanks
to the hard work over the years of people like Olivier and Michael and
others who have hunted down evidence from cannon sources. We also have
many other people who have also watched the series over and over offering
new ways to look at the evidence and new ideas to contemplate in a
comparative manner all that we have learnt.
We have answers to a lot of questions and solid well based speculations
for most of the others. We normally do not declare an answer when we don't
have one but clearly state that the speculation is just that, speculation,
based on partial evidence or no evidence as the case may be.
Disaster
> Disaster wrote:
> > Did you do a comparison against other Anime characters of similar
ages?
> > Did it occur to you that we have already determined that Rei must be
> > growing at an accelerated rate, at least physically.
>
> Actually I'd say that this research goes to support what I originally
> felt, which is that Rei was only accelerated in growth at first,
> probably when she was still "in the test tube." Afterwards, at least
> from 2010 on, she ages normally. I wasn't sure though whether or not
> children doubled in height between ages 9 and 14, but if it's in the
> pediatric growth charts, then that makes it far more likely.
Are you aware that female body proportions in Anime characters would kill
a live female? That kind of invalidates most information gathered on real
life demographics I would say. Certainly makes them suspect.
Other then that refer to Michael's comments on your comments concerning
this issue.
DBM
illustration in question!
From looking at your illustration, THAT is the 'Chibi-Rei' from the
train & mind sequences, who is drawn SMALLER than the Rei-1 first seen
beside Gendo. If you can check the episode where Rei-1 is first seen
beside Gendo, you'll see what I mean, especially if you then compare
the image to any official 'Group height' shot of the cast from EVA.
In the shot I based my height calculations on, Rei-1's head comes up
to about Gendo's belt area, something which the Chibi-Rei shown in
your illustration would NOT be able to do! The Chibi-Rei in your
image is at least another 'head' size smaller than the Rei-1 I'm
referring to, & going by growth charts, would be much smaller/younger.
As I said earlier, Shinji is drawn at various 'ages' in NGE, & again,
I wonder if there were specific 'cultural' advantages for that. Or
for that matter, if the sizes used were supposed to be him at some
sort of 'milestone' in his life.
Sorry, I'm not sure of the exact phrase, but there *IS* a celebration
in Japan based on the age of children - something to do with
celebrating 3 different ages (??? 3, 7, 9 ???) sorry, can't remember
the exact details, if I can find it, I'll post it...
However, it's another of the 'Cultural Aspects' that would make more
sense to a Japanese, than to a Foreigner.
Especially if it could be tied into events in Shinji's life! Example,
instead of Shinji finding something to 'celebrate' about at the ages
in question, all he gets is more 'grief'... he sees his mother die,
his father leaves him, etc...
As far as Rei's age & sizing goes, as with other Anime productions, I
wouldn't be surprised if continuity was 'compromised' in the story
telling - I'm not sure if the existence of the 'Director's cut' is an
example of this or not - I'll let you decide for yourself whether the
saga of the last 2 TV episodes & subsequent movies fall into this
category.
Then again, perhaps they were cashing in on some sort of '3 Fates'
thing or even a reference to the Triple Goddess of Celtic mythology...
That is, the Maid, the Mother, & the Old Crone - although here using
Chibi-Rei as the innocence/naiveness of the Maid, Rei-2 as the
maternal instinct (I will protect you) of the Mother, & the wisdom
and/or self-assertiveness of Rei-3 for the Old Crone.
I don't suppose Gainax would have done it deliberately just to get
confused fans to spend their times & bandwidth on it on the Internet?
Re Ritsuko bending down to talk to Rei-1. She was being 'maternal', &
was doing a common adult to child behaviour. At least in my mind, her
attitude simply screams out, 'Maternal Instinct Engaged' (Run for your
life, Gendo! A man taking care of a child is seen as 'suitable
partner material' by many women - if he's a 'father', he's a
'catch'...)
Re Lillith's regeneration... Was there any illustration of when Rei-2
put the lance INTO Lillith? Or for that matter any 'canon' about
Lillith's state at the time? It's just that Lillith DID regenerate
when the Lance was removed, & I'd question if Gendo had the Lance put
in Lillith to slow down any regeneration she was doing, regeneration
that may have been 'prompted' by the attacks of the Angels.
Re our form is limited by our minds - 'Before the Mind shapes the
Body, the Body shapes the Mind' - this comes from an experiment
conducted on baby chimps where the new-born chimp had a collar placed
around it's neck that stopped it from seeing it's own body. When the
collar was eventually removed, the chimp was unable to co-ordinate
it's own body - limbs etc, as it had grown up without any knowledge or
appreciation of same in its 'world view'.
In a less gruesome manner, people who are seriously 'colour blind' are
used as 'spotters' in Search & rescue operations, because they tend to
identify things by shape, & not by colour.
Yui produces an AT Field in Unit 1 - Is it because Unit 1 is
producing the AT Field, at Yui's command? That is, Yui herself cannot
do it, but utilises the abilities of her new 'body'?
Re physics & EVA's, as we don't know the exact nature of their
construction, we cannot say how it influences their abilities. If
they incorporate Neutronium as vital parts of their S2 organs, that
would tend to prevent Humanity from building S2 organs.
Rei-3's 'regeneration' in EoE - another question, where did the extra
bio-mass come from? From bodily reserves, or was it assimilated from
surrounding atmospheric material? Or for that matter, from the hand
that Gendo so kindly donated?
The more you go into NGE, the more questions there are. And it kinds
of irks me that there are so many unanswered questions & 'what ifs'
about the show, let alone the cultural icons & references that I won't
'get' because they aren't an integral part of my own culture.
When Lillith took on Rei's (Yui's?) aspect, was that because Lillith
was becoming Rei, or because Rei was becoming Lillith? Or because the
two were merging together into a greater whole, symbolically changing
their appearance as they did so?
For that matter, the whole Yui-Lillith switch that creates 'Rei'. If
Lillith was a 'mother' herself, is it relevant that the only Human
souls we KNOW to be part of EVA are both female, & mothers themselves?
Could that be why Yui was absorbed 100% in one go? Because Asuka's
Unit 0, derived from Adam, wasn't 'wired' to have a 'gender change' in
it's soul, & couldn't properly absorb Asuka's mother?
Perhaps I'm reading too much into the traditional maleness of Adam, &
that Kaworu was male, while Lillith, Yui & Rei are female?
Then again, it could be worse, it could have been a cross-over/rip-off
with Ranma 1/2 or Futabakun change...
Location - Queensland, attend IJC meetings.
DBM
Gendo, "Oh no, this isn't Shinji..."
Gendo is wearing a lab coat & is standing beside Rei-1. Gendo has his
HAND on Rei-1's SHOULDER (NOT her head). Gendo is NOT leaning over to
rest his hand on Rei-1's shoulder, but IS bending his elbow UPWARD to
rest his hand on Rei-1's shoulder. Rei-1's chin is about level with
the fork (or crotch) in Gendo's pants, & the top of her head is about
where Gendo's belt should be.
Comparing this 'first introduction' illustration of Rei-1 beside
Gendo, with your 'Trinity' illustration & official cast drawings of
Rei-2 beside Gendo, I can only conclude that the 'Chibi-Rei' shown in
'Trinity' is MUCH smaller than Rei-1 was, when Rei-1 was first
introduced in the TV series.
Example, going by 'Trinity', the top of Chibi-Rei's head would NOT
come up to Gendo's belt, but would be about level with the fork (or
crotch) in Gendo's pants, indicating that Chibi-Rei is a head SHORTER
than Rei-1 was.
If 'Chibi-Rei' was drawn as being smaller than Rei-1 (about the size a
five-year old would be, as compared to the size of a 10 year old ???),
that MAY have something to do with the number of years since the
'creation' of the mind/person that is 'Rei', rather than the actual
'size' or apparent age of the body 'Rei' was in.
Then again...
The Japanese 'age celebration' for children is called 'shichi-go-san',
& refers to the set of 'lucky numbers' of seven, five & three. (7, 5,
3). The festival occurs in Mid-November, & children aged seven, five
& three make visits to shrines to celebrate their 'luck' in reaching
the ages in question. There may be other Cultural attachments, but
that's it in a nutshell.
While the ages of 3 & 7 may be irrelevant, the age of 5 MAY have
significance to how 'Chibi-Rei' was drawn in the Train & Mind
sequences.
The Japanese phrase, 'gozou-roppu', starts with the character for 5.
One meaning of this phrase is, "inside one's mind"...
Could the use of NGE characters drawn as five-year olds be influenced
by the above expression? Or possibly be related to some other
cultural or psychological development milestone?
At what age DO we develop a clear cut sense of 'self' & 'others'?
Also re your 'Trinity' image...
Rei-3 has a navel. This is usually a physical remnant that indicates
where a child was attached to a placenta via an umbilical cord...
Depending on how the Clones were created, such things may or may NOT
have been required.
Question? IF as some people have indicated, the creation of the
clones from Lillith did not require 'traditional' umbilical cords or
placentas (or items with similar effects & purposes), why would the
Clones have navels? Plastic surgery to make them look more human? I
note that some of the Clones in the Dummy Plug lab appear to have
navels, although many of the images of them
don't clearly indicate this.
As to the Lance being a 'paralytic agent', animals that are capable of
regenerating limbs exhibit the phenomena known as 'stump current',
where the stump of a severed limb has curious electrical properties.
Adult Humans have a LOW 'stump current', & cannot regenerate lost
limbs, although children & babies have a higher 'stump current' & have
been known to regrow the tips of severed fingers.
If the Lance was some sort of 'interruption' to Lillith's normal body
functions, then the appearance of multiple limbs might be proof of
Lillith attempting to regenerate herself, but being prevented by the
Lance. Especially since Lillith 'regenerated' immediately the Lance
was withdrawn.
Ritsuko bends slightly when saying hello to Rei-1, & I must question
if *I* was correct in it being a 'Maternal - Adult to Child' response.
On reflection, it could be a 'bow', a form of Japanese Politeness.
That could be relevant, IF Ritsuko (the young new-comer) was trying to
be polite in front of Gendo, her superior at the office. (It never
hurts to ingratiate yourself with your boss by being nice to the
boss's kids...)
Hope this clears things up somewhat.
Rudolf Polzer
> All of Asuka, Shinji and Rei are shown around the 4-5 year old
> mark during the series in my opinion. Shinji when his mother "dies",
> Asuka when her mother "dies" and Rei-001 when she "dies".
That's a connection - note that not only Rei I dies in that scene!
Could it be that the relation between 2nd, 3rd and their mothers was
like Rei I's relation to Akagi?
Michael Wignall
news:slrnaj6fg2.d28.Ant...@www42.durchnull.de...
> Scripsit illa aut ille Michael Wignall <wi...@evangelion.com>:
> > All of Asuka, Shinji and Rei are shown around the 4-5
> > year old mark during the series in my opinion. Shinji
> > when his mother "dies", Asuka when her mother "dies"
> > and Rei-001 when she "dies".
>
> That's a connection - note that not only Rei I dies in that
> scene! Could it be that the relation between 2nd, 3rd and
> their mothers was like Rei I's relation to Akagi?
I don't think so. I personally don't see _any_ relation between
Naoko and Rei-001 other than Naoko killed Rei-001. I don't
see _any_ relation between Naoko and Eva-00 either. Naoko
was a computer scientist, she worked on the Magi, she wasn't
and Eva scientist, she is _never_ mentioned working on the Evas
directly like Yui and Kyouko are.
Michael Wignall
> Dear Mike, thanks for the points given in your post, &
> for the illustration in question!
You're welcome. I'm going to post some more in this response
but they wont come close to the same quality. I had EoE handy,
my copy of the series however is buried somewhere in my house
and I wouldn't know where to start looking for it. Trusty google
image seach turned up what I wanted, but the quality is rather
poor.
> From looking at your illustration, THAT is the 'Chibi-Rei'
> from the train & mind sequences, who is drawn SMALLER
> than the Rei-1 first seen beside Gendo. If you can check
> the episode where Rei-1 is first seen beside Gendo, you'll
> see what I mean, especially if you then compare the image
> to any official 'Group height' shot of the cast from EVA.
Alright I want to introduce a number of "exhibits" here if I may.
Exhibit A: The Trinity Picture
http://homepage.powerup.com.au/~wignall/Trinity.jpg
Exhibit B: Rei-002 standing next to Gendou
http://homepage.powerup.com.au/~wignall/ReiGendou.jpg
Exhibit C: Rei-001 standing next to Gendou
http://homepage.powerup.com.au/~wignall/FirstRei.jpg
Exhibit D: Far back shot of Rei-001 standing next to Gendou
http://homepage.powerup.com.au/~wignall/GendouRei.jpg
Alright, now as I mentioned above, all of these pictures except
for A I found by doing a quick google image search, so please
excuse the quality.
Alright so lets ignore Exhibit A at the moment and focus on the
others.
Exhibit B shows Rei-002 standing at shoulder height to Gendou.
Exhibits C and D show Rei-001 standing at around "belt height"
as you put it, compared to Gendou.
You are suggesting that Rei-001 is around 5/6ths the height
of Rei-002 (about a head's difference you said).
If you take Rei to be 160 cm (that's being generous) then
"one heads" difference is 26 2/3 cm.
So am I right in interpreting what you are saying that the
effective distance between Gendou's shoulder and his
"belt area" is 26 2/3 cm?
That is tiny in anyone book, especially for a tall man such as
Gendou. I my opinion there is a good 45 cms between
Gendou's shoulder and his "belt". Exhibit D shows this
best I think. The difference between Rei-001 and Rei-002
the the entire length of Gendou's torso.
Going back to Exhibit B, you can see the using the "Rei's
head" measurement, Rei-002's head only part of the way
(I would suggest a little less than half the way) down Gendou's
torso. Meaning that Gendou's torso (from his belt to his
shoulder) would be (as I suggested originally) a little more
than two heads long.
So back to Exhibit A, despites that Rei-001 having the same
clothes on as the Rei from Exhibit C, I do agree she looks
too small there, 3 heads smaller than the other Rei's as
opposed to the 2 hears smaller she is supposed to be.
As per the figures I posted before, an average 10 year old
girl is around 138 cm tall. Lets say that is around 20 cm
smaller than the current Rei-002.
I can't see how you can say that Rei-001 even comes close
to being just 20cm shorter than Rei-002. In my mind she is
much closer to the 45-50 cm shorter that would put her around
108cms tall, the average height for a 5 year old girl.
> As far as Rei's age & sizing goes, as with other Anime
> productions, I wouldn't be surprised if continuity was
> 'compromised' in the story telling - I'm not sure if the
> existence of the 'Director's cut' is an example of this
> or not -
I don't think the DC episodes compromised any of the
continuity (except perhaps for the fact that Karou is
_told_ that Adam is in Gendou's hand, so it's hard to
believe that he would "mistake" Lilith for Adam after
that).
> I'll let you decide for yourself whether the saga of the
> last 2 TV episodes & subsequent movies fall into this
> category.
Evangelion: Death stuffs up the continuity completely.
In it episode 21 is supposed to take place in 2016 which
contradicts what is shown in the both episodes 25 and
episode 25'.
> I don't suppose Gainax would have done it deliberately
> just to get confused fans to spend their times & bandwidth
> on it on the Internet?
Gainax deliberately didn't put in lots of dates, and also got
rid of seasons, specifically because they didn't want to worry
about continuity. A difference of 5 years is rather major though
in this case.
> Re Ritsuko bending down to talk to Rei-1. She was being
> 'maternal', & was doing a common adult to child behaviour.
> At least in my mind, her attitude simply screams out, 'Maternal
> Instinct Engaged' (Run for your life, Gendo! A man taking
> care of a child is seen as 'suitable partner material' by many
> women - if he's a 'father', he's a 'catch'...)
Perhaps we have different perceptions of who is actually a "child".
A 5 year old isn't in school, they are small, and fragile beings with
whom it is perfectly natural to "protect" and act maternal to.
A 10 year old has twice the experience of its 5 year old counterpart.
They have been at school 5 years, are only 2 years away from going
to hichschool, they are treated very differently to 5 year olds. Most
would probably resent someone trying to be "maternal" to them.
Just think about the difference in your reactions when you first
meet a 5 year old compared to when you meet a 10 year old.
> Re Lillith's regeneration... Was there any illustration of
> when Rei-2 put the lance INTO Lillith?
No, just Rei in Eva-00 carrying the lance down terminal dogma,
in episode 14, _after_ Gendou retrieved it from the South Pole.
The lance was at the South Pole (it was used during the Second
Impact) until episode 12 where you can see it strapped to the
deck of an aircraft carrier.
> Or for that matter any 'canon' about Lillith's state at the time?
Eva-01 was "made" out of Lilith's legs, this happened around
2004 when Yui was "absorbed". You can see shots of Eva-01
attached to Lilith while Ritsuko is talking in front of the tank full
of Reis in the Japanese "video" version of episode 23. The liner
notes also state explicitly that it is Lilith and Eva-01 linked.
> It's just that Lillith DID regenerate when the Lance was
> removed, & I'd question if Gendo had the Lance put in Lillith
> to slow down any regeneration she was doing, regeneration
> that may have been 'prompted' by the attacks of the Angels.
Yes it did regenerate instantly when the lance was taken out.
The continuity of it goes like this.
Lilith loses legs (sometime around 2004).
Episode 12, the Lance is retrieved from the South Pole
End of Episode 14, Rei takes the Lance down to terminal dogma.
Episode 15, we see legless Lilith impaled on the cross with the lance.
Episode 22, Rei removes the lance and Lilith regenerates her legs.
As I said before, I think the lance acts as a catalyst. It prompts the
regeneration, but it still has to be removed for her to actually
regenerate (hence the legs forming instantly when the lance is
removed). The lance is stuck in, it "does its work" and when it
is taken out she regenerates her legs.
This makes more sense when you think about what the lance
actually is. In EoE SEELE state that they cannot use Lilith
because they have "lost" the original lance, and thus they must
go with Eva-01, Lilith's sole clone. The lance is important to
Instrumentality, it was needed if they wanted to use Lilith.
So why can they use Eva-01 and not Lilith? What has Eva-01
got that Lilith doesn't?
I think the answer to this question is an S2 Organ. Eva-01 obtained
one, and it appears Lilith doesn't have one (if she did she could have
regenerated on her own). I think the Lance itself is an S2 Organ,
providing unlimited energy (more than enough to penetrate any
AT Field it comes across) and providing the input needed to prompt
the regeneration of Lilith. Of course she couldn't regenerate with the
Lance still in her, but it was needed to give her the ability to
regenerate once it was taken out.
> Re our form is limited by our minds - 'Before the Mind
> shapes the Body, the Body shapes the Mind' -
In the Eva Universe I don't think our form is "limited" by our minds
so much as it is directly constructed by it. We give ourselves a self
image and this image is maintained by out AT-Fields.
> Yui produces an AT Field in Unit 1 - Is it because Unit 1 is
> producing the AT Field, at Yui's command? That is, Yui herself
> cannot do it, but utilises the abilities of her new 'body'?
How could Eva-01 produce an AT-Field itself? The AT-Field is
produced by the soul. The soul is responsibly for the generation
and deployment of the AT-Field. Yui, a human soul, can produce
an AT Field in a non-human body. Rei, with Lilith's soul, can
produce an AT-field, in a human body. The Body isn't important,
the soul is. The Evas have Human souls, it is these souls that
produce the AT Fields.
> Re physics & EVA's, as we don't know the exact nature of
> their construction, we cannot say how it influences their abilities.
> If they incorporate Neutronium as vital parts of their S2 organs,
> that would tend to prevent Humanity from building S2 organs.
But again my point is that it is not about "non-terrestrial" matter.
The issue is about the technology that humans can apply to the
situation, about the knowledge they have, not about the Angels
appearing to be "alien".
> Rei-3's 'regeneration' in EoE - another question, where did the
> extra bio-mass come from? From bodily reserves, or was it
> assimilated from surrounding atmospheric material? Or for that
> matter, from the hand that Gendo so kindly donated?
I think it had to do with Rei "obtaining" Adam from out of Genou's
hand. That was the start of the "forbidden merging of Adam and
Lilith". Questions like this though are almost impossible to answer.
For instance how did Lilith gain an almost impossible mass, and
grow tremendously in size, yet at the same time become partly
incorporeal.
> The more you go into NGE, the more questions there are.
> And it kinds of irks me that there are so many unanswered
> ?questions & 'what ifs' about the show, let alone the cultural
> icons & references that I won't 'get' because they aren't an
> integral part of my own culture.
You can "learn" over time to get the cultural reference, and just
but reading a lot of SF and watching old anime you can get a
lot of Anno's references. The _true_ unanswered questions though
are there to be argued in my opinion. There isn't supposed to be
a _correct_ answer, "We all have to find our own answers".
> When Lillith took on Rei's (Yui's?) aspect, was that because
> Lillith was becoming Rei, or because Rei was becoming Lillith?
> Or because the two were merging together into a greater whole,
> symbolically changing their appearance as they did so?
Also Lilith half became Kaoru, Adam took on Kaoru's form just
like Lilith took on Reis.
> For that matter, the whole Yui-Lillith switch that creates 'Rei'.
> If Lillith was a 'mother' herself, is it relevant that the only
> Human souls we KNOW to be part of EVA are both female,
> & mothers themselves?
I think the "mother" aspect has more to do with the fact that
the Entry Plug as acts a sort of artificial womb for the pilots
and that the synchronisation between pilot and Eva takes
place over the mother-child A-10 nerve link.
> Could that be why Yui was absorbed 100% in one go?
> Because Asuka's Unit 0, derived from Adam, wasn't
> 'wired' to have a 'gender change' in it's soul, & couldn't
> properly absorb Asuka's mother?
I think Yui was absorbed and stayed because she wanted
that, while Kyouko didn't.
> Location - Queensland, attend IJC meetings.
I've went to one or two IJC meetings ages ago (I'm a UQ boy,
so it's my duty ^^) I go to the occasional BAS meeting as well
(though not for years now).
Michael Wignall
<Snip>
> Comparing this 'first introduction' illustration of Rei-1
> beside Gendo, with your 'Trinity' illustration & official
> cast drawings of Rei-2 beside Gendo, I can only
> conclude that the 'Chibi-Rei' shown in 'Trinity' is
> MUCH smaller than Rei-1 was, when Rei-1 was first
> introduced in the TV series.
>
> Example, going by 'Trinity', the top of Chibi-Rei's head
> about level with the fork (or crotch) in Gendo's pants,
> indicating that Chibi-Rei is a head SHORTER than
> Rei-1 was.
I agree, the Rei in that picture looks about a head shorter
than she should be, that is she is 3 heads shorter than the
other Reis instead of around 2 heads shorter. See the other
thread where I talk about this more. 2 heads = 5 years old
in my opinion.
> If 'Chibi-Rei' was drawn as being smaller than Rei-1
> (about the size a five-year old would be, as compared
> to the size of a 10 year old ???), that MAY have something
> to do with the number of years since the 'creation' of the
> mind/person that is 'Rei', rather than the actual 'size' or
> apparent age of the body 'Rei' was in.
No matter how you look at it though, Rei is only 5 years old.
Rei's body was created _after_ Yui was absorbed into Eva-01.
Yui was absorbed in 2004. The "salvaged" experiment took
place in 2005, and the Encyclopaedia of Eva #3 states that Rei-001
was 5 when Naoko killed her in 2010.
So she has "existed" for 5 years. The only issue is how old her
body is. I say that it is 5 years old as well, that they didn't
do any "acceleration" until after the first Rei had died.
To guage how old the body is you need to look at it, and I can't
see how you can perceive that _small_ body of Rei-001 to be
any older than 5 years.
> Rei-3 has a navel. This is usually a physical remnant that
> indicates where a child was attached to a placenta via an
> umbilical cord... Depending on how the Clones were created,
> such things may or may NOT have been required.
Yeah we commented on this a while ago ^_^
Personally I think its there for purely aesthetic reasons.
> Ritsuko bends slightly when saying hello to Rei-1, & I must
> question if *I* was correct in it being a 'Maternal - Adult to
> Child' response. On reflection, it could be a 'bow', a form
> of Japanese Politeness. That could be relevant, IF Ritsuko
> (the young new-comer) was trying to be polite in front of
> Gendo, her superior at the office. (It neverhurts to ingratiate
> yourself with your boss by being nice to the boss's kids...)
I don't think it was a bow, I think it was as you say a "Maternal"
reaction to a _young_ child. In Japan you don't bow down to little
children, especially in this case when they didn't even bow down
to Gendou himself.
DBM
it up!
I will have to concede your point re size, mainly because I am unable
to produce the 'cast height' illustration I used to found my argument
in the first place.
The cast height illustration in question is from page 111 of the
'Newtype 100% Collection' book of 'Neon Genesis Evangelion'. It's on
the page that states 'The Official Art of Evangelion' - Complemented
People.
If you can find a copy of this illustration on the Net, good luck!
In the illustration mentioned above, Rei-2 (or 3) stands beside Gendo,
the top of her head does NOT come up to the falloff point of Gendo's
shoulder - by falloff point, I mean the point where the slope of
Gendo's shoulder, suddenly becomes the vertical line of his upper
arm - Rei-2 is shorter than this shoulder fall-off point, & her chin
is a bit above Gendo's belt line. Going by her head height, the fork
(crotch) of Gendo's pants is *ABOUT*one (Rei-2) head height below her
chin (more like 1 & 1/4 ??)
It was on that 'cast' illustration that I based most of my
comparisons.
In the other scene I used, the TV scene where Rei-1 is first
introduced, Rei-1's head has her chin level with the fork of Gendo's
trousers, & the top of her head would be about where Gendo's belt
would be, going by measuring Gendo's torso & conducting proportional
analysis.
Since the characters in NGE are drawn with the fork of their legs
about the halfway mark of their body size, Rei-1 was at least half
Gendo's height, with another head size on top of that.
Disaster
> Note I said "a head", followed by "a head & a 1/4" - I think I may
> have then confused you with the comment in brackets of '(Rei#2 head
> sizes)"
I thought this was fairly obvious myself!
> When I made the comment 'Chibi-Rei', I was referring to the Rei first
> seen standing beside Gendo when Naoko & Ritsuko meet Rei-1 for the
> first time.
>
> As was since pointed out to me, the term 'Chibi-Rei', while actually
> meaning 'little-Rei', is more commonly applied to the 'child' Rei seen
> in the train car sequences & in people's minds.
As far as I know we have never addressed the child Rei seen in Shinji's
mind but as we are dealing with Rei I we mean Rei I
> However, my error reminds me that I should point out that Shinji
> himself is drawn at several different stages in 'childhood', as a baby
> at his mother's breast, as the 'toddler' unwittingly waving 'bye-bye'
> to his mother, as the crying child deserted by his father, & as the
> 'Chibi-Shinji' on the trains, & in people's minds.
The image of Shinji waving bye to his mother and then being abandoned by
his father are more or less the same age I think. the two events were
fairly close together anyhow. The Train sequences I think at this point
are not relevant as they do not represent the characters as they are in
the NGE's real world but as they are seen by others. I know this is big
issue where the self is concerned but we should be smart enough to realize
the difference.
> However, *IF* the 'train' version of Chibi-Rei *IS* drawn as smaller
> or more childish looking than when Rei-1 is first seen with Gendo,
> would that have any sort of significance, other than to indicate that
> Rei-1 was once a person of that height/appearance, or for that matter,
> just an attempt by Gainax to cash in on readily creatable 'public
> sympathy' for a character drawn as a child?
You are getting a little off track here huh?
> Most of my theorising has been over plot development points that could
> be used in a Fan fiction I'm writing. Admittedly, it IS an 'Alternate
> Universe' one, but one that I am trying to build a 'consistent' plot
> development throughout, a plot development that while it may NOT be to
> 'exact canon' specifications, would still explain several of the
> mysteries of the show to my satisfaction.
If you are writing an Alternate then it is good to get a as good of an
idea of NGE as you can but you should feel like you need to use this
material within your fic. As it is an Alternate it is your world. Your
plots, your events. A good example of an alternate world would be Children
of an Elder God. The whole theme of NGE is used but in a very different
manner.
> One thing that bothers me about the AT Fields in Terminal Dogma when
> Kaworu came a-knocking... If Lillith's Soul generates her AT Field,
> then it appears to be in two places at once - one generated by the
> Lillith construct, the other generated by Rei-3. (Refer previous post
> for a 'blow-by-blow' accounting, & for a 'split-soul' theory based on
> actual religious teachings that may be of some significance.)
Yeah, forget the split soul theory. Basing it on unrelated material
doesn't make it a plausible idea. Three ATF's in terminal dogma, Tabris,
Unit 01 and Lilith/Rei III.
> As is the fact that despite not 'having a soul', the embryonic Adam is
> still 'alive', & regenerating itself. As apparently, was Lillith - In
> one of the movies (not sure which), Rei removes the Lance from
> Lillith, & Lillith instantly regenerates her missing legs. Since
> Lillith already had so many small legs sticking out of her torso, this
> raises the question, was the Lance some sort of 'paralytic agent' that
> prevented Lillith from regenerating?
It does seem apparent that the Lance somehow restricted the body of Lilith
from returning to it's "fully healed" state.
> One of the things I have been interested in finding out, is the actual
> material construction of the Angels & etc - for despite Lillith being
> Humanity's progenitor, no human is her size, & it may appear, no human
> is composed of exactly the same materials she is.
>
> No Human has the capacity to generate the powerful AT field that
> Lillith & the Angels do, & no human has an S2 organ. Physics also
> come into things, with the questions raised by potential differences
> in materials used as building blocks for Humanity.
Lilith is the source of humanity before she is humanity. We are human we
come from our parents but we are not the same as out parents yet we are
both called human. It's the same with the Angel's and Adam. Further we
have no evidence that the relationship is exactly similar to that of the
child and parent, more likely it is somewhere more removed. Likely by
several evolutionary processes.
> As various religious texts state, Humanity was made from dust/soil.
> Meaning that whatever the force BEHIND our creation, we are made of
> THIS world's materials.
Uh yeah forget about using direct religious material as cannon. It's
apparently used more for an overtone and to set the mood then anything
else.
> As proof? All of the materials in a Human's body are found on Earth,
> even surprise, , such 'essential' ingredients as Strontium.
This would makes sense as for a long time we have been procreating on this
planet and the old saying "what you eat is what you are" is very much a
real statement. Now the question becomes can you prove that 1st impact
didn't bring all these materials to earth with it? Not that this would
even be necessary as evolution is an adaptation to your environment
anyway.
> When Ritsuko tries to analyse the Angels, she keeps getting an 'unable
> to analyse' error, indicating that the Angels contain compounds,
> elements, isomers or isotopes that are unknown, and/or un-analysable
> by her equipment. This indicates that the materials are NOT of this
> world, or at least, if they are of this world, are so rare as to be
> unknown & thus un-analysable to the Future Science & Super Computers
> of 2015. Which, judging by the existence of the technology behind the
> MAGI, would far exceed our own.
One explanation follows from my last statement. It may be apparent to you
that the Angel's have been sleeping since 1st Impact. that is they have
not been evolving to fit into this worlds changing environment. It may
very well be that they have elements that were introduced in the collision
and then over time disappeared due to whatever happen to the earth in that
amount of time. So effectively you are reaching back in time to gather and
bring forward what has been lost due to natural selection.
> One item of great concern, is the Angel's 'power core', the S2 organ
> that Shinji's EVA ate. SEELE was somewhat upset about that little
> matter, & the question arises, were the S2 power organs deliberately
> left out of the EVA's for safety reasons? Or, was the creation of the
> S2 power organ too 'complex' at the time of creation of the EVA's?
I would say a bit of both but primarily the latter. As Unit 04 appears to
have been destroy in an experiment with an S2 organ it shows that NERV did
not at the time have the expertise and knowledge to use and/or install
such devices.
> Then again, there is another explanation...
>
> NERV obtained portions of an S2 power organ when Shinji fought the
> 'whip-lash' Angel. Question, did Shinji unwittingly supply NERV with
> more than a mere 'biological sample', but perhaps with an organ
> containing rare or non-terrestrial (& thus non-analysable) materials?
> Materials that were finally available in enough quantity to ALLOW the
> creation of NERV's own S2 organ, the one that absorbed/blew up the
> American branch?
It's certainly possible. Although I would stop thinking about
non-terrestrial items as they are all terrestrial now.
> I have made comments about 'non-terrestrial' materials, particularly
> since Ritsuko with all her equipment COULDN'T analyse some of the
> materials found in Angels. Shinji's EVA ate the S2 power core of an
> Angel, supposedly 'assimilating it' as the EVA did the arm it tore off
> the Angel...
>
> Hang about? Tore OFF the Angel? Either Unit 1 changed the material
> of the Angel's arm during assimilation, or else Unit 1, the 'Clone' of
> Lillith & the Angels are created of the SAME material.
>
> The same materials that Ritsuko CANNOT analyse!
Stop making comments about non-terrestrial materials. Eva's and Angel's
would have similar materials in their makeup as the Eva's are clones of
the sources of life which would contain at least samples of the original
materials brought to earth or were on earth back during the 1st Impact.
Disaster
> to something actually decent.
No you are not. A decision has been made that you will continue to suffer
OE until the end of time. Immortality has been granted unto you. Enjoy!
> > Note I said "a head", followed by "a head & a 1/4" - I think
> > I may have then confused you with the comment in brackets
> > of '(Rei#2 head sizes)"
> >
> > I did NOT say 2 head sizes, & I apologise if my wording was
> > confusing, I SHOULD have said, 'a head', OR 'head & a 1/4'.
>
> Ah well in that case I disagree completely about that difference.
> I was too lazy to actually check before, but now that you have
> pressed it I have gone to EoE where the three Rei's are standing
> over Gendou's body. Here is a screen capture of that scene.
>
> http://homepage.powerup.com.au/~wignall/Trinity.jpg
>
> I think this scene shows quite clearly the difference in size
> between the Reis.
God Rei III's arms are tiny!
> > By your OWN research, you confirm my observation that
> > a character 1 head shorter than Rei-2 in a plugsuit matches
> > the height of a 10-year old child. I allowed the extra 1/4
> > due to difficulties in measuring, as a maximum allowable
> > error margin.
>
> No I don't confirm your observation, I merely used your
> stated observation. As I have shown above your stated
> observation is clearly wrong. Rei-001 is only about half
> the size of Rei-002 and Rei-003. She most certainly does
> not match the height of an average 10 year old girl.
Definitely not!
> > I accept I made another error in wording, I apologise.
>
> It is not a problem. I personally think of Rei-001 when people
> say Chibi-Rei anyway so... ^^
There's really only one "real" Rei I anyways.
> > However, my error reminds me that I should point out that
> > Shinji himself is drawn at several different stages in 'childhood',
> > as a baby at his mother's breast, as the 'toddler' unwittingly
> > waving 'bye-bye' to his mother, as the crying child deserted
> > by his father, & as the 'Chibi-Shinji' on the trains, & in people's
> > minds.
>
> All of Asuka, Shinji and Rei are shown around the 4-5 year old
> mark during the series in my opinion. Shinji when his mother "dies",
> Asuka when her mother "dies" and Rei-001 when she "dies".
I wonder if all the mothers of the children in Shinji's class also died
when they were around 5. Did Kensuke or Toji ever say?
> > I will concede that the 'Chibi-Rei' on the Trains, & in
> > people's minds may look more childlike than Rei-1 does
> > when first seen with Gendo, & may actually be of a
> > smaller size than Rei-1 was when first seen with Gendo.
> > Whether the drawing of the 'train' version is more 'childish'
> > looking, or for that matter, smaller in stature, is not
> > something I feel confident enough to comment on at
> > this time.
>
> I personally didn't take the "train" Rei isn't account at all. I
> can't even remember what she looks like to tell the truth, it
> has been considerably more than a year since I last watched
> any Eva. My statement that Rei-001 looks to be 5 years old
> is based on her appearance in episode 21 (she is very small
> in that episode, Ritsuko has to bend right down to talk to her)
> as well as the shot in EoE that I have posted above.
Further you have to consider that the Rei I in the "train" is only the Rei
as seen in the mind of Shinji, not the Rei as is in the "real" world of
which this "train" Rei is only based on.
> > One thing that bothers me about the AT Fields in Terminal
> > Dogma when Kaworu came a-knocking... If Lillith's Soul
> > generates her AT Field, then it appears to be in two places
> > at once - one generated by the Lillith construct, the other
> > generated by Rei-3.
>
> I think both Lilith and Adam are exempt from the general rule
> that an AT-Field is required to maintain physical form. We
> are told that Kaoru is the only one with Adam's soul, yet Adam
> maintains physical form. Likewise I think that Lilith can maintain
> physical form without her soul. Adam and Lilith are sources of
> life and thus I think the normal rules don't apply to them.
I'm not concerned here! A dead person looses their soul yet their body
maintains physical form. It stops growing, becomes susceptible to rot and
bacteria, it's form is no longer maintained you could say.
> > Since Lillith already had so many small legs sticking out of
> > her torso, this raises the question, was the Lance some sort
> > of 'paralytic agent' that prevented Lillith from regenerating?
>
> I think it is the opposite. I think it acts as a catalyst for the
> regeneration.
> Lilith "lost" her legs in 2004 (they were "made" into Eva-01). She
> had been sitting down in terminal dogma for around 11 years before
> the Lance was retrieved from the South Pole and Rei (in Eva-00)
> stuck it into her (in the end of episode 14). Only 8 episodes later
> Rei (again in Eva-00) pulls the Lance out and Lilith regenerates her
> legs.
>
> After sitting down in terminal dogma for 11 years without regenerating
> it only took 8 episodes (a couple of months at most) with the lance in
> her for her to be able to regenerate fully when the lance is removed.
That's a good point! Kinda like something sits on the edge for a while
then you push it away from the edge, it bounces off a wall and the added
energy is enough to throw it off the edge kinda thing?
I think you have said this before actually. I keep forgetting that Lilith
lives without her legs for so long without the lance.
> Our form is limited by our minds. This is shown exceedingly well
> in EoE where Lilith's body takes on Rei's form, takes on Yui's form.
> The soul directly affects the physical form. If everything is
essentially
> made up of the same materials then the form is defined by the soul.
> After all it is said that the Angels were given the "Fruit of Life"
while
> Humans got the "Fruit of Wisdom".
I don't understand how that applies. What is the difference here between
that of life and wisdom?
> > No Human has the capacity to generate the powerful AT field
> > that Lillith & the Angels do, & no human has an S2 organ.
> > Physics also come into things, with the questions raised by
> > potential differences in materials used as building blocks for
> > Humanity.
>
> You can't say for certain that Humans cannot produce similar
> AT Fields. Most humans don't even realise they have AT Fields.
> Yui in Eva-01 produces an extremely strong AT Field. The ATF
> is produced by the soul, just because most humans don't realise
> they can project one doesn't mean they can't.
Okay projection and generation are two things here. An ATF is the border
remember, a border is just an edge. You don't "produce" something that has
always been there!
> > As proof? All of the materials in a Human's body are
> > found on Earth, even surprise, , such 'essential' ingredients
> > as Strontium.
>
> Just becuase they are found on Earth doesn't mean they were
> generated here. They could quite easily have been introduced,
> (say 4 billion years ago, at the time of the Great Impact).
Or have been here already and somehow altered over time. Bone(or plant
matter, I forget) has turned into oil with time, chemical alterations are
not unbelievable. If you have never seen oil before then chances are
you're not gonna be able to analysis it the moment you get it.
> <Snip Physics and Chemistry lesson>
>
> I'm an Engineer; I did physics and chemistry both at highschool
> and at University. I've played little games of boiling cold water
> in a partial vacuum. How does this relate to Eva though? You
> talk about the difference between Angels and the so called
> "terrestrial" humans. What I am saying is that Humans, just like
> Angels, are born from "sources of Life" who did not originate on
> this planet.
Although we did, from them, on this planet origniate. With the materials
that either were here already or were brought here by them.
> So Ritsuko doesn't know everything about the Angels, that is
> not surprising, they are beings from a completely different source
> of life to humans. There are attributes about Angels that human
> science (even the 2015 version) is unable to explain because
> they simply don't have enough information. This doesn't mean
> that _everything_ about humanity isn't similarity "foreign", it just
> means that we have had a lot longer than 15 years to study it.
Or that the elements disappeared because either they were unique to Adam's
side of the family and they all went to sleep or those elements found in
both Adam's and Lilith's family somehow changed over the years of
evolution and because those of Adam were hibernating they did not have any
need to evolve to match their environment.
> > One item of great concern, is the Angel's 'power core', the
> > S2 organ that Shinji's EVA ate. SEELE was somewhat
> > upset about that little matter, & the question arises, were the
> > S2 power organs deliberately left out of the EVA's for safety
> > reasons? Or, was the creation of the S2 power organ too
> > 'complex' at the time of creation of the EVA's?
>
> The Super-Solenoid theory was used to explain the power of
> the "being" they found at the South Pole. Eva-04 was destroyed
> while testing the S2 Engine, however SEELE finally managed to
> use the S2 Engines in the Mass Production Evas. I think it is
> merely a matter of technological prowess. They knew the theory
> they just had to make it work.
Reminds me of my beginnings in MS Access, I had no idea how to make
anything in there work a month ago. Now I'm causing all sorts of trouble!
I think that a 4 billion year residence alters you from non-terrestrial to
terrestrial!
Disaster
> In the shot I based my height calculations on, Rei-1's head comes up
> to about Gendo's belt area, something which the Chibi-Rei shown in
> your illustration would NOT be able to do! The Chibi-Rei in your
> image is at least another 'head' size smaller than the Rei-1 I'm
> referring to, & going by growth charts, would be much smaller/younger.
In my mind I see Naoko bending over almost double to talk to Rei I right
before she kills him! Whatever the height, We see Rei I when she was
around her 5th year.
> As I said earlier, Shinji is drawn at various 'ages' in NGE, & again,
> I wonder if there were specific 'cultural' advantages for that. Or
> for that matter, if the sizes used were supposed to be him at some
> sort of 'milestone' in his life.
Mothers death, Fathers abandonment, yeah I'd say these are milestones. Not
very nice ones but events that would be rather memorable.
> Sorry, I'm not sure of the exact phrase, but there *IS* a celebration
> in Japan based on the age of children - something to do with
> celebrating 3 different ages (??? 3, 7, 9 ???) sorry, can't remember
> the exact details, if I can find it, I'll post it...
I do not remember any birthday celebrations in NGE. Or any kind of
traditional celebration.
> As far as Rei's age & sizing goes, as with other Anime productions, I
> wouldn't be surprised if continuity was 'compromised' in the story
> telling - I'm not sure if the existence of the 'Director's cut' is an
> example of this or not - I'll let you decide for yourself whether the
> saga of the last 2 TV episodes & subsequent movies fall into this
> category.
I don't see how anything in the story needs to be compromised at this
point.
> Then again, perhaps they were cashing in on some sort of '3 Fates'
> thing or even a reference to the Triple Goddess of Celtic mythology...
> That is, the Maid, the Mother, & the Old Crone - although here using
> Chibi-Rei as the innocence/naiveness of the Maid, Rei-2 as the
> maternal instinct (I will protect you) of the Mother, & the wisdom
> and/or self-assertiveness of Rei-3 for the Old Crone.
You are thinking to much in the religious context. You really do need to
drop that. Rei I, Rei II and Rei III all had significant events in their
lives. Rei I was strangled, Rei II was mostly either injured or at school
and Rei III was apparently naked!
> Re Lillith's regeneration... Was there any illustration of when Rei-2
> put the lance INTO Lillith? Or for that matter any 'canon' about
> Lillith's state at the time? It's just that Lillith DID regenerate
> when the Lance was removed, & I'd question if Gendo had the Lance put
> in Lillith to slow down any regeneration she was doing, regeneration
> that may have been 'prompted' by the attacks of the Angels.
Well we do know that Lilith didn't have legs before hand. There's an image
somewhere. Sorry but I am horrible when it comes to backing up my
statements. Anyhow Gendo did have Rei put the Lance into Lilith. At the
end of one episode you see her walking down a huge corridor with the
Lance. The next time you see the Lance is when Rei takes it back out of
Lilith.
> Re our form is limited by our minds - 'Before the Mind shapes the
> Body, the Body shapes the Mind' - this comes from an experiment
> conducted on baby chimps where the new-born chimp had a collar placed
> around it's neck that stopped it from seeing it's own body. When the
> collar was eventually removed, the chimp was unable to co-ordinate
> it's own body - limbs etc, as it had grown up without any knowledge or
> appreciation of same in its 'world view'.
Yes but we are not talking about chimps or even real world physics. Very
similar and I'm sure the same experiment would even work in NGE but only
because the min would thus think that it is first shaped by the body. The
soul/mind in NGE shapes the body. Michael gave a very good example of this
too in reference to the scene in EoE when Rei III joined the body of
Lilith.
> Yui produces an AT Field in Unit 1 - Is it because Unit 1 is
> producing the AT Field, at Yui's command? That is, Yui herself cannot
> do it, but utilises the abilities of her new 'body'?
The ATF is the border OF the soul. As Yui's soul has been moved into Unit
01, Unit 01 now HAS an ATF. Before Yui moved in Unit 01 didn't have a soul
thus could not have a border to a soul meaning no ATF.
> Rei-3's 'regeneration' in EoE - another question, where did the extra
> bio-mass come from? From bodily reserves, or was it assimilated from
> surrounding atmospheric material? Or for that matter, from the hand
> that Gendo so kindly donated?
Well, as Gendo lost his arm in the process I think it's a fair bet she
just assimilated that!
> The more you go into NGE, the more questions there are. And it kinds
> of irks me that there are so many unanswered questions & 'what ifs'
> about the show, let alone the cultural icons & references that I won't
> 'get' because they aren't an integral part of my own culture.
That's why we have been answering all of your questions right?
> When Lillith took on Rei's (Yui's?) aspect, was that because Lillith
> was becoming Rei, or because Rei was becoming Lillith? Or because the
> two were merging together into a greater whole, symbolically changing
> their appearance as they did so?
Rei IS Lilith.
Before the cloning of Rei there was Lilith in Lilith's body. Then the body
cloned from Yui came along and the soul of Lilith was inserted into and it
was called Rei by Gendo.
> For that matter, the whole Yui-Lillith switch that creates 'Rei'. If
> Lillith was a 'mother' herself, is it relevant that the only Human
> souls we KNOW to be part of EVA are both female, & mothers themselves?
> Could that be why Yui was absorbed 100% in one go? Because Asuka's
> Unit 0, derived from Adam, wasn't 'wired' to have a 'gender change' in
> it's soul, & couldn't properly absorb Asuka's mother?
Yui had a %400 synch, not a %100. Further the use of "mother" and "father"
for Lilith and Adam is a loosely used term! They have no actually gender
that we can discern, gender is something that we either evolved into later
or were given when Lilith gave us life.
> Perhaps I'm reading too much into the traditional maleness of Adam, &
> that Kaworu was male, while Lillith, Yui & Rei are female?
Yes you are.
Disaster
> From Episode 21...
>
> Gendo, "Oh no, this isn't Shinji..."
>
> Gendo is wearing a lab coat & is standing beside Rei-1. Gendo has his
> HAND on Rei-1's SHOULDER (NOT her head). Gendo is NOT leaning over to
> rest his hand on Rei-1's shoulder, but IS bending his elbow UPWARD to
> rest his hand on Rei-1's shoulder. Rei-1's chin is about level with
> the fork (or crotch) in Gendo's pants, & the top of her head is about
> where Gendo's belt should be.
Yes and as we know all Anime characters limbs are drawn to exact
proportions all the time! Do you know that Unit 01 is measure at 40 feet
to 200 feet?
> Comparing this 'first introduction' illustration of Rei-1 beside
> Gendo, with your 'Trinity' illustration & official cast drawings of
> Rei-2 beside Gendo, I can only conclude that the 'Chibi-Rei' shown in
> 'Trinity' is MUCH smaller than Rei-1 was, when Rei-1 was first
> introduced in the TV series.
You should have responded to Michael's other post. I know it totally
screws up your thinking but that's not the point here!
> The Japanese 'age celebration' for children is called 'shichi-go-san',
> & refers to the set of 'lucky numbers' of seven, five & three. (7, 5,
> 3). The festival occurs in Mid-November, & children aged seven, five
> & three make visits to shrines to celebrate their 'luck' in reaching
> the ages in question. There may be other Cultural attachments, but
> that's it in a nutshell.
And completely un-referenced in NGE as far as anyone I know is aware!
> While the ages of 3 & 7 may be irrelevant, the age of 5 MAY have
> significance to how 'Chibi-Rei' was drawn in the Train & Mind
> sequences.
It has far more to do with how Shinji remembers her.
> The Japanese phrase, 'gozou-roppu', starts with the character for 5.
> One meaning of this phrase is, "inside one's mind"...
>
> Could the use of NGE characters drawn as five-year olds be influenced
> by the above expression? Or possibly be related to some other
> cultural or psychological development milestone?
How about, "they were young" and 5 is a good age to represent "young" ???
> At what age DO we develop a clear cut sense of 'self' & 'others'?
The age at which you can focus your thoughts I guess. In NGE it would be
the moment you are created.
> Rei-3 has a navel. This is usually a physical remnant that indicates
> where a child was attached to a placenta via an umbilical cord...
> Depending on how the Clones were created, such things may or may NOT
> have been required.
Yes but as most human forms have one she would imagine herself as having
one!
> Question? IF as some people have indicated,
My name is Disaster! Thanks!
> the creation of the
> clones from Lillith did not
I said may not!
> require 'traditional' umbilical cords or
> placentas (or items with similar effects & purposes), why would the
> Clones have navels?
Because as humans we think we have them! (NGE POV)
> Plastic surgery to make them look more human? I
> note that some of the Clones in the Dummy Plug lab appear to have
> navels, although many of the images of them
> don't clearly indicate this.
The tank is full of LCL(which is not completely clear) and we are looking
through a glass pane. I'm sure there is some distortion of light.
> If the Lance was some sort of 'interruption' to Lillith's normal body
> functions, then the appearance of multiple limbs might be proof of
> Lillith attempting to regenerate herself, but being prevented by the
> Lance. Especially since Lillith 'regenerated' immediately the Lance
> was withdrawn.
Reference Michael's list of events. The lance was not used to solely
restrict Lilith's regeneration but it for the time that it did not allow
her to regenerate it would also not have allowed little legs. Little legs
would have come from earlier.
> Ritsuko bends slightly when saying hello to Rei-1, & I must question
> if *I* was correct in it being a 'Maternal - Adult to Child' response.
> On reflection, it could be a 'bow', a form of Japanese Politeness.
No she bent down to talk to her! You don't stay in a bow with a bright
smile on your face to talk to people.
> That could be relevant, IF Ritsuko (the young new-comer) was trying to
> be polite in front of Gendo, her superior at the office. (It never
> hurts to ingratiate yourself with your boss by being nice to the
> boss's kids...)
It was Naoko who was talking to Rei I, not Ritsuko.
Disaster
>
> Rei's body was created _after_ Yui was absorbed into Eva-01.
> Yui was absorbed in 2004. The "salvaged" experiment took
> place in 2005, and the Encyclopaedia of Eva #3 states that Rei-001
> was 5 when Naoko killed her in 2010.
You can't argue with that!
> So she has "existed" for 5 years. The only issue is how old her
> body is. I say that it is 5 years old as well, that they didn't
> do any "acceleration" until after the first Rei had died.
Perhaps they waited for puberty?
> > Rei-3 has a navel. This is usually a physical remnant that
> > indicates where a child was attached to a placenta via an
> > umbilical cord... Depending on how the Clones were created,
> > such things may or may NOT have been required.
>
> Yeah we commented on this a while ago ^_^
>
> Personally I think its there for purely aesthetic reasons.
It could also be the place of last contact with Lilith when they were
created!
Disaster
> Scripsit illa aut ille Michael Wignall <wi...@evangelion.com>:
> > All of Asuka, Shinji and Rei are shown around the 4-5 year old
> > mark during the series in my opinion. Shinji when his mother "dies",
> > Asuka when her mother "dies" and Rei-001 when she "dies".
>
> That's a connection - note that not only Rei I dies in that scene!
> Could it be that the relation between 2nd, 3rd and their mothers was
> like Rei I's relation to Akagi?
No, Rei I clearly did not look At Naoko as a mother figure and she
obviously was not born of her.
Rudolf Polzer
> "Rudolf Polzer" <AntiATFiel...@durchnull.de> wrote:
> > Scripsit illa aut ille Michael Wignall <wi...@evangelion.com>:
> > > All of Asuka, Shinji and Rei are shown around the 4-5 year old
> > > mark during the series in my opinion. Shinji when his mother "dies",
> > > Asuka when her mother "dies" and Rei-001 when she "dies".
> >
> > That's a connection - note that not only Rei I dies in that scene!
> > Could it be that the relation between 2nd, 3rd and their mothers was
> > like Rei I's relation to Akagi?
>
> No, Rei I clearly did not look At Naoko as a mother figure and she
You only know nothing like this was shown. Probably you're right and
this is just a coincidence - but will we ever really know?
> obviously was not born of her.
ACK.
Disaster
> Scripsit illa aut ille Disaster <disa...@disfanfic.net>:
> > "Rudolf Polzer" <AntiATFiel...@durchnull.de> wrote:
> > > Scripsit illa aut ille Michael Wignall <wi...@evangelion.com>:
> > > > All of Asuka, Shinji and Rei are shown around the 4-5 year old
> > > > mark during the series in my opinion. Shinji when his mother
"dies",
> > > > Asuka when her mother "dies" and Rei-001 when she "dies".
> > >
> > > That's a connection - note that not only Rei I dies in that scene!
> > > Could it be that the relation between 2nd, 3rd and their mothers was
> > > like Rei I's relation to Akagi?
> >
> > No, Rei I clearly did not look At Naoko as a mother figure and she
>
> You only know nothing like this was shown. Probably you're right and
> this is just a coincidence - but will we ever really know?
Did you not see the manner in which Rei addressed Naoko? Mother figures
are treated with respect and deference, if not then you are simply not
treating them as though they were a mother figure. Rei I does not grant
Naoko the respect and deference that one grants a mother figure thus we
can deduce that Rei I does think of Naoko as a mother. I consider this to
be somewhat obvious.
> > obviously was not born of her.
>
> ACK.
I'm going to assume that "ACK" is an expression of agreement. Please let
me know if I am in error.
Rudolf Polzer
> "Rudolf Polzer" <AntiATFiel...@durchnull.de> wrote:
> > Scripsit illa aut ille Disaster <disa...@disfanfic.net>:
> > > "Rudolf Polzer" <AntiATFiel...@durchnull.de> wrote:
> > > > Scripsit illa aut ille Michael Wignall <wi...@evangelion.com>:
> > > > > All of Asuka, Shinji and Rei are shown around the 4-5 year old
> > > > > mark during the series in my opinion. Shinji when his mother
> > > > > "dies", Asuka when her mother "dies" and Rei-001 when she
> > > > > "dies".
> > > >
> > > > That's a connection - note that not only Rei I dies in that
> > > > scene! Could it be that the relation between 2nd, 3rd and their
> > > > mothers was like Rei I's relation to Akagi?
> > >
> > > No, Rei I clearly did not look At Naoko as a mother figure and she
> >
> > You only know nothing like this was shown. Probably you're right and
> > this is just a coincidence - but will we ever really know?
>
> Did you not see the manner in which Rei addressed Naoko? Mother
> figures are treated with respect and deference, if not then you are
> simply not treating them as though they were a mother figure. Rei I
> does not grant Naoko the respect and deference that one grants a
> mother figure
Not always. Or is it like that in Japan? There *are* situations when
children treat their parents with disrespect - but IMHO they don't look
like the scene where Rei called Naoko an "old hag".
> thus we can deduce that Rei I does think of Naoko as a mother.
We cannot.
> I consider this to be somewhat obvious.
That's another thing. But if something is obvious it is not necessarily
true.
> > > obviously was not born of her.
> >
> > ACK.
>
> I'm going to assume that "ACK" is an expression of agreement. Please let
> me know if I am in error.
It's fully correct. ACK stands for Acknowledgement and is a common
abbrevation for this long word especially in circuit plans or pin
layouts (see a manual of an old printer for example - one line of that
is called ACK and the printer always uses it to tell the computer that
it has received a byte).
Disaster
> Scripsit illa aut ille Disaster <disa...@disfanfic.net>:
> > figures are treated with respect and deference, if not then you are
> > simply not treating them as though they were a mother figure. Rei I
> > does not grant Naoko the respect and deference that one grants a
> > mother figure
>
> Not always. Or is it like that in Japan? There *are* situations when
> children treat their parents with disrespect - but IMHO they don't look
> like the scene where Rei called Naoko an "old hag".
I imagine there are all sorts of people in Japan. But as you said
yourself, it doesn't look like this is one of the disrespectful group. Rei
is brought up by Gendo and Gendo is a very discipline orientated
individual.
> > thus we can deduce that Rei I does think of Naoko as a mother.
>
> We cannot.
Yes we can!
> > I consider this to be somewhat obvious.
>
> That's another thing. But if something is obvious it is not necessarily
> true.
It is in this case.
> > > > obviously was not born of her.
> > >
> > > ACK.
> >
> > I'm going to assume that "ACK" is an expression of agreement. Please
let
> > me know if I am in error.
>
> It's fully correct. ACK stands for Acknowledgement and is a common
> abbrevation for this long word especially in circuit plans or pin
> layouts (see a manual of an old printer for example - one line of that
> is called ACK and the printer always uses it to tell the computer that
> it has received a byte).
Well, I'm not a printer!
Rudolf Polzer
> "Rudolf Polzer" <AntiATFiel...@durchnull.de> wrote:
> > Scripsit illa aut ille Disaster <disa...@disfanfic.net>:
> > > Did you not see the manner in which Rei addressed Naoko? Mother
> > > figures are treated with respect and deference, if not then you are
> > > simply not treating them as though they were a mother figure. Rei I
> > > does not grant Naoko the respect and deference that one grants a
> > > mother figure
> >
> > Not always. Or is it like that in Japan? There *are* situations when
> > children treat their parents with disrespect - but IMHO they don't look
> > like the scene where Rei called Naoko an "old hag".
>
> I imagine there are all sorts of people in Japan. But as you said
> yourself, it doesn't look like this is one of the disrespectful group. Rei
> is brought up by Gendo and Gendo is a very discipline orientated
> individual.
We saw the result in Rei III at the beginning of 26'.
SCNR
> > > I consider this to be somewhat obvious.
> >
> > That's another thing. But if something is obvious it is not necessarily
> > true.
>
> It is in this case.
How can you be *sure* about that? They were only shown in one scene, so
you cannot conclude anything from it!
> > > > > obviously was not born of her.
> > > >
> > > > ACK.
> > >
> > > I'm going to assume that "ACK" is an expression of agreement. Please let
> > > me know if I am in error.
> >
> > It's fully correct. ACK stands for Acknowledgement and is a common
> > abbrevation for this long word especially in circuit plans or pin
> > layouts (see a manual of an old printer for example - one line of that
> > is called ACK and the printer always uses it to tell the computer that
> > it has received a byte).
>
> Well, I'm not a printer!
That's just where I know this abbrevation from - that does not mean it
originates from that.
Disaster
> Scripsit illa aut ille Disaster <disa...@disfanfic.net>:
What result is that? Consfusion? That's all we really saw in Rei III at
first.
> > It is in this case.
>
> How can you be *sure* about that? They were only shown in one scene, so
> you cannot conclude anything from it!
Because I'm human too you know! Watchman may argue otherwise but it's
true, I'm human and I can analysis emotional reactions as well as the next
guy. Rei I and Naoko did not get along despite Naoko's attempts to do so
because Rei I was the commanders "brat." Do you call your daughter figure
a brat with distaste?
I think Naoko called Rei I a brat. I'd appreciate it if someone could back
that up for me or tell me otherwise.
> > Well, I'm not a printer!
>
> That's just where I know this abbrevation from - that does not mean it
> originates from that.
Well, as you are the one using it and you only know it from printers then
as far as you are concerned you got it from a printer! Do you know what
the sound "Ack" means? It's a surprised expression of displeasure or
distaste. It's what someone says when they put their hand in goo, or what
they scream if someone jumps at them from behind! So as I am a human and
not a printer how in gods name am I suppose to understand what you said?
Michael Wignall
> Dear Mike, you present both a powerful argument,
> & the proof to back it up!
Why thank you ^_^
It is just my opinion though. I _think_ that Rei-001 looks 5
years old when we see her in episode 21. We _know_ that
she _is_ chronologically 5 years old (ie, its been 5 years
since she has been "created") however the point at which
this apparent "acceleration" (ie after Rei-001's death) is just
my personal belief.
> I will have to concede your point re size, mainly because
> I am unable to produce the 'cast height' illustration I used
> to found my argument in the first place.
>
> The cast height illustration in question is from page 111
> of the 'Newtype 100% Collection' book of 'Neon Genesis
> Evangelion'. It's on the page that states 'The Official Art
> of Evangelion' - Complemented People.
>
> If you can find a copy of this illustration on the Net,
> good luck!
>
> In the illustration mentioned above, Rei-2 (or 3) stands
> beside Gendo, the top of her head does NOT come up
> to the falloff point of Gendo's shoulder - by falloff point,
> I mean the point where the slope of Gendo's shoulder,
> suddenly becomes the vertical line of his upper arm -
> Rei-2 is shorter than this shoulder fall-off point, & her
> chin is a bit above Gendo's belt line. Going by her head
> height, the fork (crotch) of Gendo's pants is *ABOUT*
> one (Rei-2) head height below her chin (more like 1 &
> 1/4 ??)
>
> It was on that 'cast' illustration that I based most of my
> comparisons.
So this illustration shows both Rei-002 and Rei-001? Or
just Rei-002?
To tell the truth when I made my frist opinion about how
old Rei-001 was I didn't really think about Rei-002. I
thought that the size of Rei-001 compared to Gendou
was that of a 5 year old, as opposed to the comparision
between Rei-001 and Rei-002.
My initial recation when upon seeing Rei-001 in episode
21 standing next to Gendou (oh so many years ago) was
that I noticed she only came up to his hips and I just thought
that she looked _young_. It didn't even enter my mind that
she was around 10 years old.
In my mind I would never picture a 10 year old only coming
up to a full grown mans hips.
> In the other scene I used, the TV scene where Rei-1 is
> first introduced, Rei-1's head has her chin level with the
> fork of Gendo's trousers, & the top of her head would
> be about where Gendo's belt would be, going by measuring
> Gendo's torso & conducting proportional analysis.
As I said above, this is what I based my opinion on originally.
Even using "proporional anaysls" I can't picture Rei-001 as
anywhere near 10 in that scene.
Say Gendou is 180 cm, I can't see how his hips could
be anywhere higher than 110cm. I would say it would be
physically impossible for them to be 140cm high. Of course
I could be wrong ^_^
> Since the characters in NGE are drawn with the fork of
> their legs about the halfway mark of their body size, Rei-1
> was at least half Gendo's height, with another head size
> on top of that.
I still don't see how that can get her anywhere near 140 cm
Anyway let me know what you think.
Rudolf Polzer
[...]
> I think Naoko called Rei I a brat. I'd appreciate it if someone could back
> that up for me or tell me otherwise.
I think I've forgotten this scene... I'll look it up. But it would be
the answer.
> > > Well, I'm not a printer!
> >
> > That's just where I know this abbrevation from - that does not mean it
> > originates from that.
>
> Well, as you are the one using it and you only know it from printers then
> as far as you are concerned you got it from a printer! Do you know what
> the sound "Ack" means?
Do you try to pronounce every abbrevation as it was a word? Just try it with
NGE, MS, USA, HTTP.
And I knew this from printers but never used it on Usenet until I saw
many people use it.
Disaster
> Scripsit illa aut ille Disaster <disa...@disfanfic.net>:
> > "Rudolf Polzer" <AntiATFiel...@durchnull.de> wrote:
> [...]
> > I think Naoko called Rei I a brat. I'd appreciate it if someone could
back
> > that up for me or tell me otherwise.
>
> I think I've forgotten this scene... I'll look it up. But it would be
> the answer.
I am not confident with it, but it does somehow feel very familar
> > Well, as you are the one using it and you only know it from printers
then
> > as far as you are concerned you got it from a printer! Do you know
what
> > the sound "Ack" means?
>
> Do you try to pronounce every abbrevation as it was a word? Just try it
with
> NGE, MS, USA, HTTP.
No! It's just that often sounds we make are expressed with combinations of
letters that look the same as abbreviations.
> And I knew this from printers but never used it on Usenet until I saw
> many people use it.
You are the 1st person I have seen use it in my years at JAE!
Richard Liang
>"DBM" <dbmacp...@uq.net.au> wrote in message
>news:ah1a1f$t8p$1...@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au...
>
>
>>Dear Mike, you present both a powerful argument,
>>& the proof to back it up!
>>
>>
>
>Why thank you ^_^
>
>It is just my opinion though. I _think_ that Rei-001 looks 5
>years old when we see her in episode 21. We _know_ that
>she _is_ chronologically 5 years old (ie, its been 5 years
>since she has been "created") however the point at which
>this apparent "acceleration" (ie after Rei-001's death) is just
>my personal belief.
>
>
>
She might have always been "accelerated." In episode 21 Rei-001 doesn't
quite look 4-5 years old to me, but she might look 6-7 years old, having
a chronological age of 5. Then five years later she looks 14, which
would be consistent with her growth acceleration. From a creator's
point of view, I guess, who cares if she ages fast? She's going to go
all ballistic and "mother-of-humanity" anyway :)
Richard