Controversial Theories? MY thoughts!
DBM
intended as Troll-bait or Flame-war material, but just some
observations & musings...
As to taking 'Official Information' on NGE at face value...
Scene inside the HQ of a certain Animation Studio.. An EB (Evil
B*****D) with a 'Honest Abe Lincoln' beard is telling a certain AD
(Anime Director) exactly what the AD can & CANNOT state in explicit
terms about a certain show the Animation Studio is working on...
The EB is sitting in a plush office chair... The AD is hanging upside
down by his ankles (courtesy of two of the EB's Private Guards) out of
an open window twenty stories above the street...
The EB suddenly spoke with slightly embarrassed & apologetic tones in
his voice, "I regret the course of action you have forced me to
take... But, I think it best if we don't tell the fans... every...
little detail about the show... The semi-mystery will only help
sales. To start with, if anyone should ask, yes, I *AM* an
unbelievably well-endowed Chick Magnet... Although I only go for
Women with Brilliant Minds & Major Hooters..."
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Theory#1 Rei's Real Age/Creation Date?
In the ORIGINAL TV series, Gendo advised Fuyutsuki that Gendo had
married Yui & had a son with her, & gives Professor F a card - on
which is the image of a small blue haired cherub... Blue-Haired...
Winged-Angel-Type-Cherub? O_O; Significant or what? Especially
since Rei's 'Official Birthday', at least according to Gainax, is
months before Shinji's!
Theory#2 What about the Official comment that 'Gendo created Rei'?
Well, remember when Gendo interrogated Ritsuko about why she destroyed
the 'Dummy Plug Project'? Ritsuko answered with, 'It wasn't the Dummy
Plug I destroyed - It was REI!' This tends to indicate that Gendo
does not see the Tank Clones as 'Rei', but only sees 'Rei' as being
the Clone that's NOT in the tank, but is running around 'being' Rei.
So, could 'Gendo creating Rei', mean the creation of the fictitious
female CHARACTER known as 'Ayanami Rei', a character that a series of
Clones would impersonate, & NOT the creation of the actual Clones
themselves?
Theory#3 What about the 'remains' used by Gendo in the creation of
'Rei'?
Hm... If Yui was absorbed & reduced to soup like Shinji was, then
there was NO body to speak of, & only a chemical soup that could NOT
be identified as belonging to any specific terrestrial species, let
alone DNA capable of being indexed to a particular person. Remember,
it was 'Primordial Soup', & had no more discernible relation to a
person, than a tree in a forest has to a modern timber-framed home...
Actually, even less than that... The trees & the timber in the house
are at least identifiable as wood of a particular species...
However! Could the comment refer to Yui's genetic material already
contained in the Clones, or some sort of 'Mental' or other
'Personality Booster' derived from RNA encoded pieces of memory in the
soup Yui became, or even reverse-downloads of data from the Core of
Unit 1? Tip the vat of Yui-Goop into the Clone Tank, let everything
simmer for as the Clones absorb Yui's Humanity via electronic osmosis,
& Hey Presto! Instant Personality!
Remember, that in Japanese, 'Gendo created Rei', can also mean that
Gendo created ONE Rei, or that Gendo created MANY Rei... There is a
subtle cultural difference when it comes to plurals of a thing...
Theory#4 So who DID create the Rei Clones?
Long theory... Please bear with me...
Well... Naoko & Ritsuko are both Genius scientists with multiple
College Degrees, or 'Polymath's... Asuka is an intellectual child
prodigy, having graduated College at age 14... Since it is canon that
there are already 3 Geniuses in the show, could it be that Yui was
ALSO a genius of the same calibre? A genius eagerly recruited by
SEELE for her latent talents?
Remember, Yui was employed by SEELE before she met Gendo... If so, &
IF Yui was another 'child genius', then she could have created the Rei
Clones sometime in her teenage years as part of her VITAL research
into how to create an Evangelion!
It would also make more sense from a 'Bio Ethics' point of view - if
Yui used her own DNA in making the Clones, she wouldn't need
permission from the DNA donor, & there would be less chance of things
boiling over when the subject of 'destructive testing' came up...
And if you think researchers wouldn't use living/conscious genetic
constructs based on their own DNA... Certain 'Super-powers' used new
born human babies & the Mentally Disabled in A-Bomb tests... And yes,
some of the 'test animals' were still alive when the tests began...
Theory#5 But why create the Rei Clones?
Well, to put it mildly, Guinea Pigs!
Remember the size of all those 'Dead' EVA's in the graveyard? Why go
to the trouble of building a 1:1 large scale model when a small scale
model will do the job just as well, with a FRACTION of the cost &
handling hassles? Hey! Engineers do it ALL THE TIME for wind tunnel
tests & Natural Disaster resistance tests on skyscrapers & bridges!
Theory#6 Who or what is really inside Unit 0?
Warning! LONG piece follows...
Well... When Shinji tried to pilot Unit 0, it rejected him & went
berserk, but just before it did, something tried to get into Shinji's
mind from Unit 0...
Remember? It was Rei...
But what does that mean?
The Cores of the EVA's can hold data derived from a specific person -
witness the comments about 'rewriting the data' in the series. But
what exactly does that mean, & does the data storage mechanism have a
similar 'ghosting effect' to that of a Hard Disk? That is, can it
still retain 'info' from earlier data sets, unless it's been 'written
over'? Presumably, Unit 0 was 'rewritten' for Shinji, so the vision
of 'Rei' was something that COULDN'T be rewritten, like the soul?
We know that Unit 1 'absorbed' Yui, & that Unit 2 'partially absorbed'
Asuka's mother... but... the absorption ratio's were different...
Unit 1 'totally' absorbed Yui, & evidently thinks of Shinji as her/its
child - that's why it goes berserk protecting him, & moves of its OWN
volition to protect him. Presumably that's why it was also able to
rebuild Shinji when he was absorbed, because Unit 1 absorbed Yui's
subconscious memories of being pregnant with Shinji, & of 'building'
him during pregnancy/gestation.
Asuka finds her mother in Unit 1 in EOE, & it appears that Unit 2
starts to act as Unit 1 could, beginning to move after power had run
out, etc. That's just before the White EVA's do an Evangelion sized
bit of 'Ultra-Violence'. A scene I suspect may be a subtle homage to
'A Clockwork Orange', a book that had Classical music as a central
plot device, & was also a movie done by Stanley Kubrick, the man who
did '2001: A Space Odyssey'.
But Unit 0... Unit 0 was a prototype... And it had Rei's memories in
it...
Here's a question... How far removed is Rei from the Evangelions?
Especially since Rei, like Kaworu, is composed of the same unearthly
material? Could the EVA's just be 'deliberately retarded' versions of
what Rei & Kaworu are/could be? That is, Rei & Kaworu are the true
'production models', with the EVA's just being rough sketches, or
models that have 'incomplete' options for testing & safety purposes?
Think about this! How far removed is Rei as a person, from the
encoded personality in the Dummy Plug?
As Gendo once said, if the Evangelion thinks it has a pilot it will
move... Admittedly, this was true of Unit 1, but ONLY when Shinji
was inside. Even then it could be argued that the 'Yui Essence' was
ONLY TOO HAPPY to let an ersatz Rei essence tell it to trash the thing
attacking Shinji.
If you don't NEED a living pilot, do you still need any sort of
'Living Soul' to animate an EVA? What of the seeming consciousness in
the 'Soul-less' Clones in the Dummy Plug Lab, the scene where Shinji
speaks Rei's name, & all of the Clones 'wake up' & smile at Shinji?
Does 'Rei' move because her subconscious mind thinks she has a 'soul'
inside of her? Even if the soul is not her own? Could the 'soul' she
have, be just another type of 'Dummy Plug'? One that's designed for a
Human sized body?
Here's the actual theory, sorry it took so long to lay the
groundwork...
The system of Dummy plug based on Rei's digitised personality, is a
refined version of the situation between an EVA & its pilot... BUT!
Rei herself is just another form of Dummy Plug, one that has the
memory of an artificial soul loaded into her living body, rather than
the data of a living body loaded into the Hard Disk drives of the
Dummy Plug unit.
Proof? Only theory I'm afraid, but please consider...
Kaworu was able to commandeer Unit 2 at a moment's notice, because the
'soul' (subconscious mind ?) in Unit 2 was 'hiding'... But what if
there was NO 'soul' to begin with in the EVA? Could he still have
'commandeered' Unit 2? Or, would HE have been absorbed on attempting
to synchronmise with it?
For that matter, since the 'soul' in Unit 2 was hiding, can we presume
that Kaworu had NO help whatsoever from it? Or, can we assume that he
DID have some help, in that everything needed to animate Unit 2 didn't
HAVE to come from him? That is, when a pilot synchronises with an
EVA, they partially merge their own consciousness with it. The
initial pilots of units 1 & 2 did more than merge their consciousness,
they 'merged' themselves with the EVA to 'jump-start' it, using their
OWN souls, & were absorbed.
Remember, Yui was totally absorbed, while Asuka's mom was only PARTLY
absorbed... Asuka's mother was driven mad by the process of 'sharing
her soul' with the EVA... But Rei was DESIGNED to 'share her soul',
to just what extent we do not know for sure, but certainly with her
sister Clones at any rate, just as she 'shared' her memories with them
on a regular basis via Memory Download in the Dummy Plug Lab... And
the Tank Clones DID respond ON THEIR OWN TO SHINJI! Indicating that
the Tank Clones had some sort, or some PART of a soul in them...
So, IF a soul can be shared between different beings, as it was with
Unit 2 & Asuka's mom - could that also explain the reaction of the
Tank Clones, Unit 0 & Rei's personality? Rei didn't go insane from
sharing her soul, but her mind, her 'willpower' was sort of
'fragmented' by it? As the number of beings that 'shared' Rei's
artificial soul were reduced, the concentration in each 'vessel'
increased, until the last Rei Clone became totally coherent, & a real
person...
Is that why Shinji saw 'Rei' inside Unit 0? Because Rei had
'jump-started' an empty husk with her own memories & artificial soul,
& in doing so, had HAD to leave 'parts' of herself in the EVA, like
Yui & Asuka's mother had done with their EVAs? That is, 'echoes' or
some other sort of psychic residue were left inside Unit 0 as a
'primer mixture' for the next synchronisation attempt?
Could that be why Unit 0 had such low ratios, & why it took Rei so
many months to learn to control it? THERE WAS NO-ONE INSIDE UNIT 0 TO
START WITH, SO REI HAD TO START FROM SCRATCH!
Theory#7 So why would Unit 0 go berserk?
From the above, Unit 0 has a void, a vacuum within that needs to be
filled with the fullness of experience that a Human soul holds... It
WANTS more soul... BUT! Rei won't relinquish any more soul to it...
And there's enough of 'Rei' in Unit 0, enough of her "You won't die...
I will protect you..." mentality towards Shinji to prevent Unit 0 from
trying to absorb Shinji!
Both times Unit 0 went berserk, it was in a fit of frustration. Unit
0 went berserk, because Rei WOULDN'T let it have any more of her soul,
& because the 'part' of Rei inside Unit 0 WOULDN'T try to harm Shinji
by attempting to take his soul...
This might explain why the 'pattern' between Unit 0 & 1 are similar
enough for Shinji to try & pilot Unit 0, & why Rei can pilot Unit 1.
If the Clone that became 'Rei' had originally been 'programmed' or
otherwise had her 'personality' jump-started by a download of data
held in Unit 1's core, then she could pass a similar looking
'download' onto Unit 0.
This could also explain why they wouldn't let Asuka pilot Unit 0...
Unit 0: "Wha-Hey! I've got a Pilot & it's NOT Rei or Shinji! Yummo!
Dinnertime!"
Unrelated question... If an EVA falls over in the forest & there's no
Pilot synchronising with it, does it still feel pain?
Well, that's about all from me... If anyone wants to know how I'd see
some of the above things being incorporated into the background of NGE
as unseen 'behind the scenes' stories, I'll be happy to abuse you with
a poorly written Parody Fan Fiction I've done...
Warning, it's got Changed names, OOC, AU, ACC, SI, Character-bashing,
Poor Grammar, & EVEN WORSE in the Omakes...
Yours, dbmacp...@INHIBITIONSuq.net.au
(Note! Remove INHIBITIONS to reply!)
Stuart Nealon
to take in in one reading, but it is facinating none the less
"DBM" <dbmacp...@uq.net.au> wrote in message
news:ag9mfh$e8h$2...@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au...
Disaster
news:ag9mfh$e8h$2...@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au...
Someone else address this? It makes me tired looking at it.
--
Kind regards
Disaster
Disaster's Fan Fiction - http://www.disfanfic.net
DSE - For the Public - http://www.disfanfic.net/DSE
JAE FAQ - http://www.evafaq.com
Pen^3's JAE FAQ - http://faq.pen3.cjb.net
Convention Reports - http://www.disfanfic.net/conventions
Michael Wignall
Well I have some free time, so I'll bite.
> Theory#1 Rei's Real Age/Creation Date?
>
> In the ORIGINAL TV series, Gendo advised Fuyutsuki that
> Gendo had married Yui & had a son with her, & gives
> Professor F a card - on which is the image of a small blue
> haired cherub... Blue-Haired... Winged-Angel-Type-Cherub?
> O_O; Significant or what?
The scene may have been set in 2002 however it was created
long after the Rei character had been created (ie, existed).
The fact that on the card there is an image of something that
looks like Rei doesn't mean that Rei actually existed at that
point in the Eva timeline (she did in the "real world", just
not in Eva, it was a flashback remember). See below
for further discussion about Rei's creation.
> Especially since Rei's 'Official Birthday', at least according to
> Gainax, is months before Shinji's!
If you are referring to the "Birthday of Rei Ayanami" album then
that is hardly "canon" information. It is rather absurd really. Yui
was born on March, 30th just has her voice actor Megumi
Hayashibara was born on March, 30th. Rei (even though she
was also voiced by Megumi) was _not_ born on March 30th,
2001. Rei cannot have been created until after Yui "died". Yui
died in 2004. Rei was probably created in the "salvage" attempt
on Eva-01 that took place in 2005 in an attempt to retrieve Yui.
This is further supported by the fact that Rei-001 (the one we see
in episode 21) is only 5 when she dies in 2010 at Naoko's hand.
According to The End of Evangelion - Theatrical Program, Rei's
birthday is "Unknown". We _know_ that Yui's is March, 30th just
like Megumi's, but Gendou would have to be an absolute idiot
to have Rei's birthday the same as his "late" wife's" and still expect
to keep Rei's origins a secret.
Rei was created sometime _after_ March 30th, 2004 (Yui was 17
when she "died" and was born in 1977)".
> Theory#2 What about the Official comment that 'Gendo created Rei'?
>
> Well, remember when Gendo interrogated Ritsuko about why she
> destroyed the 'Dummy Plug Project'? Ritsuko answered with, 'It
> wasn't the Dummy Plug I destroyed - It was REI!' This tends to
> indicate that Gendo does not see the Tank Clones as 'Rei', but only
> sees 'Rei' as being the Clone that's NOT in the tank, but is running
> around 'being' Rei.
I think it tends to imply that _Ritsuko_ say the clones in the tank as
Rei at the time she was destroying them, and that was the reason
in fact that she destroyed them.
From episode 23:
"I'm destroying them. These aren't human, just things with human
forms. But even so, I lost to these things, to these soulless dolls.
I couldn't win. I could've suffered any humiliation, endured any
torture. But he had already chosen... "
Ritsuko wasn't destroying the Rei clones because she wanted
to destroy the Dummy System, she did it because she wanted
to destroy Rei, to whom she had "lost" to.
> So, could 'Gendo creating Rei', mean the creation of the
> fictitious female CHARACTER known as 'Ayanami Rei', a
> character that a series of Clones would impersonate, & NOT
> the creation of the actual Clones themselves?
It _could_ but I think that Gendou (and Fuyutsuki) both had a hand
in her creation. They had to be involved in the "salvage" attempt on
Yui (Naoko wasn't involved).
> Theory#3 What about the 'remains' used by Gendo in the
> creation of 'Rei'?
>
> Hm... If Yui was absorbed & reduced to soup like Shinji was,
> then there was NO body to speak of, & only a chemical soup
> that could NOT be identified as belonging to any specific
> terrestrial species, let alone DNA capable of being indexed to
> a particular person.
It is explained in episode 20:
----
Ritsuko: All of the materials which formed Shinji-kun are still
in the plug. What could be called his soul exits there, too. In
fact, his ego image gives pseudosubstance to his plugsuit.
Maya: Salvaging means reconstructing his body and fixing
his soul into it.
----
Salvaging specifically means reconstructing his body and
fixing his soul into it.
I think that when Rei was created they tried to "salvage" Yui,
that is reconstruct her body and put her soul back into it, and
they succeeded in reconstructing her body, they just failed
at putting her soul back into it. They put Lilith's soul into
it instead (Lilith and Eva-01 being joined when Yui was
"absorbed".)
Rei's body was created from the remains of Yui _salvaged_
from Eva-01. They tried to salvage Yui's body just like
they did Shinji's, but in the end they got Rei (ie Yui's body
and Lilith's soul) and not Yui herself (Yui's body, Yui's soul),
> Remember, it was 'Primordial Soup', & had no more discernible
> relation to a person, than a tree in a forest has to a modern
> timber-framed home... Actually, even less than that... The trees
> & the timber in the house are at least identifiable as wood of a
> particular species...
Yet clearly they still had the technology to "reconstruct" the body
of a person out of it. To continue your tree analogy, perhaps they
had the "plans" of how to build the house stored in the Magi, and
simply created the house from the trees based on that plan. The
"Primordial Soup" is the base starting point, from it (using whatever
technology they had) they could reconstruct peoples bodies.
> However! Could the comment refer to Yui's genetic material
> already contained in the Clones, or some sort of 'Mental' or
> other 'Personality Booster' derived from RNA encoded pieces
> of memory in the soup Yui became, or even reverse-downloads
> of data from the Core of Unit 1? Tip the vat of Yui-Goop into
> the Clone Tank, let everything simmer for as the Clones absorb
> Yui's Humanity via electronic osmosis, & Hey Presto! Instant
> Personality!
The EoE theatrical program states that Rei was created and _then_
multiple clones were _prepared_ in terminal dogma. This links into
another theory though about the reason for all the little legs sticking
out of Lilith's torso, but I wont go into that now.
> Remember, that in Japanese, 'Gendo created Rei', can also mean
> that Gendo created ONE Rei, or that Gendo created MANY Rei...
> There is a subtle cultural difference when it comes to plurals of a
thing...
To tell the truth, I don't remember where it is ever stated that "Gendou
created Rei". If you could please enlighten me as to where it is said it
would be most appreciated.
> Theory#4 So who DID create the Rei Clones?
> Long theory... Please bear with me...
>
> Well... Naoko & Ritsuko are both Genius scientists with
> multiple College Degrees, or 'Polymath's... Asuka is an
> intellectual child prodigy, having graduated College at age
> 14... Since it is canon that there are already 3 Geniuses in
> the show, could it be that Yui was ALSO a genius of the same
> calibre? A genius eagerly recruited by SEELE for her latent
> talents?
Of course she was. Yui was one of the major Eva scientists before
she "died", she was one of the people who started it all, helped
construct Eva-00 and Eva-01. She was connected with SEELE
and bio-tech research before either of Gendou or Fuyutsuki were.
> Remember, Yui was employed by SEELE before she met Gendo...
> If so, & IF Yui was another 'child genius', then she could have
> created the Rei Clones sometime in her teenage years as part
> of her VITAL research into how to create an Evangelion!
Wow, that's a pretty massive jump. Ever heard of Occam's Razor?
What about Rei having Lilith's soul? What about the fact that we
are told that Rei is only 5 years old in 2010.
> It would also make more sense from a 'Bio Ethics' point of view
> - if Yui used her own DNA in making the Clones, she wouldn't
> need permission from the DNA donor, & there would be less
> chance of things boiling over when the subject of 'destructive
> testing' came up...
One thing you are missing is that Rei's origins are supposed to be
a secret, even from SEELE. In episode 23, Fuyutsuki worries
about what SEELE will do if they discover that Rei is alive. Rei
is special, but no one is supposed to know that she is special.
> And if you think researchers wouldn't use living/conscious
> genetic constructs based on their own DNA... Certain
> 'Super-powers' used new born human babies & the Mentally
> Disabled in A-Bomb tests... And yes, some of the 'test animals'
> were still alive when the tests began...
This isn't a problem for me. Yui volunteered to be the test subject
for Eva-01 and she chose to stay there in the end. This was all
for Shinji's benefit, so I don't think she would have any ethical
problems with what you are suggesting, I just then that on the
whole what you are suggesting is very unlikely.
> Theory#5 But why create the Rei Clones?
>
> Well, to put it mildly, Guinea Pigs!
>
> Remember the size of all those 'Dead' EVA's in the graveyard?
> Why go to the trouble of building a 1:1 large scale model when
> a small scale model will do the job just as well, with a FRACTION
> of the cost & handling hassles? Hey! Engineers do it ALL THE
> TIME for wind tunnel tests & Natural Disaster resistance tests on
> skyscrapers & bridges!
Well for starters, Rei isn't the same as the Evas. She has a human body.
The Evas (except for Eva-01) are all clones of Adam. Eva-01 is a
clone of Lilith. They have human souls, but their bodies are clones
of the sources of life. They are the complete opposite of Rei who
has a human body and the soul of a source of life.
> Theory#6 Who or what is really inside Unit 0?
> Warning! LONG piece follows...
>
> Well... When Shinji tried to pilot Unit 0, it rejected him & went
> berserk, but just before it did, something tried to get into Shinji's
> mind from Unit 0...
>
> Remember? It was Rei...
>
> But what does that mean?
>
> The Cores of the EVA's can hold data derived from a specific
> person - witness the comments about 'rewriting the data' in the
> series. But what exactly does that mean, & does the data storage
> mechanism have a similar 'ghosting effect' to that of a Hard Disk?
> That is, can it still retain 'info' from earlier data sets, unless it's
been
> 'written over'? Presumably, Unit 0 was 'rewritten' for Shinji, so the
> vision of 'Rei' was something that COULDN'T be rewritten, like
> the soul?
The Cores of the Evas also contain the Eva's soul. Eva-01's core
contains Yui's soul, Eva-02's contains Kyouko's soul. This is
confirmed in the EoE theatrical program which states that Kyouko's
"soul appears to have been used in the core of Eva-02."
> We know that Unit 1 'absorbed' Yui, & that Unit 2 'partially
> absorbed' Asuka's mother... but... the absorption ratio's
> were different... Unit 1 'totally' absorbed Yui, & evidently
> thinks of Shinji as her/its child - that's why it goes berserk
> protecting him, & moves of its OWN volition to protect him.
> Presumably that's why it was also able to rebuild Shinji when
> he was absorbed, because Unit 1 absorbed Yui's subconscious
> memories of being pregnant with Shinji, & of 'building' him
> during pregnancy/gestation.
See above where I discuss who Shinji's body is "reconstructed".
> Asuka finds her mother in Unit 1 in EOE, & it appears that
> Unit 2 starts to act as Unit 1 could, beginning to move after
> power had run out, etc. That's just before the White EVA's
> do an Evangelion sized bit of 'Ultra-Violence'. A scene I
> suspect may be a subtle homage to 'A Clockwork Orange',
> a book that had Classical music as a central plot device, &
> was also a movie done by Stanley Kubrick, the man who did
> '2001: A Space Odyssey'.
I don't think it was a homage to a clockwork orange, a lot of people
set scenes to classical music a long time before Kubrick did, they
also didn't have Shinji jerking off to the William Tell Overture either ^_^
> But Unit 0... Unit 0 was a prototype... And it had Rei's
> memories in it...
I personally think it has Rei's soul in it, rather an imprint of it. To be
even more specific an imprint of Lilith's soul from the time it was in
Rei-001.
> Here's a question... How far removed is Rei from the Evangelions?
> Especially since Rei, like Kaworu, is composed of the same unearthly
> material?
No, both Rei and Kaoru have human bodies, they just have the souls
of sources of life (Lilith and Adam respectively). The Evas are the
other way around, they have human souls, but bodies cloned from
sources of life.
> Could the EVA's just be 'deliberately retarded' versions of what
> Rei & Kaworu are/could be? That is, Rei & Kaworu are the
> true 'production models', with the EVA's just being rough sketches,
> or models that have 'incomplete' options for testing & safety purposes?
I don't think so, as I said above, they are complete opposites.
> Think about this! How far removed is Rei as a person, from
> the encoded personality in the Dummy Plug?
Very removed. One has Lilith's soul, the other doesn't.
> As Gendo once said, if the Evangelion thinks it has a pilot it
> will move... Admittedly, this was true of Unit 1, but ONLY
> when Shinji was inside. Even then it could be argued that the
> 'Yui Essence' was ONLY TOO HAPPY to let an ersatz Rei
> essence tell it to trash the thing attacking Shinji.
The Dummy Plug tricked the Eva into thinking its pilot was
controlling it. That's what it does. More on this below.
> If you don't NEED a living pilot, do you still need any sort
> of 'Living Soul' to animate an EVA?
Yes. The MP Evas must have souls to produce AT Fields,
however they use only the Dummy Plugs, so they only "souls"
in them are the souls of the Evas themselves, there are not living
pilots in them.
> What of the seeming consciousness in the 'Soul-less' Clones
> in the Dummy Plug Lab, the scene where Shinji speaks Rei's name,
> & all of the Clones 'wake up' & smile at Shinji?
That's a tough one. Personally I think it was just for affect, that the
soulless Rei's are not aware at all.
> Does 'Rei' move because her subconscious mind thinks she has
> a 'soul' inside of her? Even if the soul is not her own? Could the
>'soul' she have, be just another type of 'Dummy Plug'? One that's
>designed for a Human sized body?
What is the mind without the soul in the Eva Universe? The mind
certainly doesn't belong to the brain. Shinji loses physical form
completely, he no longer has a brain, but he still has his "mind".
> Here's the actual theory, sorry it took so long to lay the
> groundwork...
>
> The system of Dummy plug based on Rei's digitised personality,
> is a refined version of the situation between an EVA & its pilot...
> BUT! Rei herself is just another form of Dummy Plug, one that
> has the memory of an artificial soul loaded into her living body,
> rather than the data of a living body loaded into the Hard Disk
> drives of the Dummy Plug unit.
She is the vessel for Lilith's soul. The Dummy Plugs have no souls
because it is impossible to digitise a soul. That is the major, very
important difference between the two.
> Proof? Only theory I'm afraid, but please consider...
>
> Kaworu was able to commandeer Unit 2 at a moment's notice,
> because the 'soul' (subconscious mind ?) in Unit 2 was 'hiding'...
> But what if there was NO 'soul' to begin with in the EVA? Could
> he still have 'commandeered' Unit 2? Or, would HE have been
> absorbed on attempting to synchronmise with it?
He didn't attempt to synchronise with it. That's the point. They say
what Kaoru was doing is "theoretically impossible' because they
haven't changed the Core. The current Core is Asuka's Core, the
Core containing Kyouko. Kaoru doesn't "synch" with this Core, he
just controls the Eva directly, because as he says in episode 24,
"Eva is made of the same body as me. Because I'm also born of Adam."
> For that matter, since the 'soul' in Unit 2 was hiding, can we
> presume that Kaworu had NO help whatsoever from it?
> Or, can we assume that he DID have some help, in that
> everything needed to animate Unit 2 didn't HAVE to come
> from him? That is, when a pilot synchronises with an EVA,
> they partially merge their own consciousness with it. The initial
> pilots of units 1 & 2 did more than merge their consciousness,
> they 'merged' themselves with the EVA to 'jump-start' it, using
> their OWN souls, & were absorbed.
Kaoru didn't get any help from Kyouko. In fact a strong resident
soul of the Eva would have stopped him from taking control. Again
from episode 24: "When the unit doesn't have a soul, I can unite with it.
The soul of Unit 02 is shutting itself up now.". If the soul wasn't then
he would have a problem controlling it.
I don't think either Yui or Kyouko were "pilots". There was nothing to
synch with, nothing to pilot. They merely participated in "Contact
experiments" which resulted (with a number of side effects) of placing
their respective souls into the Evas' Cores.
> Remember, Yui was totally absorbed, while Asuka's mom was
> only PARTLY absorbed... Asuka's mother was driven mad by
> the process of 'sharing her soul' with the EVA... But Rei was
> DESIGNED to 'share her soul', to just what extent we do not
> know for sure, but certainly with her sister Clones at any rate,
> just as she 'shared' her memories with them on a regular basis
> via Memory Download in the Dummy Plug Lab... And the Tank
> Clones DID respond ON THEIR OWN TO SHINJI! Indicating
> that the Tank Clones had some sort, or some PART of a soul in
> them...
I don't think it indicates that they had any "part" of a soul at all. Rei
only has one soul, that of Lilith's and it is passed from one clone to
the next when the previous one dies. Ritsuko states absolutely that
the other clones in the take have no souls. I think that their reaction
to Shinji's is sort of like a body still moving even after it's head has
been cut off, it isn't indicative of a soul, or of awareness.
> So, IF a soul can be shared between different beings, as it was
> with Unit 2 & Asuka's mom - could that also explain the reaction
> of the Tank Clones, Unit 0 & Rei's personality?
I don't think a soul can be _shared_ as such, but I do believe that
it can be "imprinted". Kyouko's soul was imprinted into Eva-02,
yet she still retained her soul herself. Different theory, similar
end result.
> Rei didn't go insane from sharing her soul, but her mind, her
>'willpower' was sort of 'fragmented' by it? As the number of
> beings that 'shared' Rei's artificial soul were reduced, the
> concentration in each 'vessel' increased, until the last Rei Clone
> became totally coherent, & a real person...
I think that Rei-001 was mentally unstable due to her soul
being "imprinted" into Eva-00, similar to how Kyouko
because mentally unstable after her soul was put into Eva-02.
> Is that why Shinji saw 'Rei' inside Unit 0? Because Rei had
> 'jump-started' an empty husk with her own memories &
> artificial soul, & in doing so, had HAD to leave 'parts' of
> herself in the EVA, like Yui & Asuka's mother had done
> with their EVAs? That is, 'echoes' or some other sort of
> psychic residue were left inside Unit 0 as a 'primer mixture'
> for the next synchronisation attempt?
I think that Rei-001's soul was merely "imprinted" into Eva-00,
which is why both Rei and Shinji are able to pilot it but not
Asuka. Rei can pilot Eva-01 because of "similar personality
patterns shared between Eva-01 and Eva-00". Asuka can
pilot neither. Yui is in Eva-01 and Rei is as similar to Yui as
you will get in the series.
> Could that be why Unit 0 had such low ratios, & why it took
> Rei so many months to learn to control it? THERE WAS
> NO-ONE INSIDE UNIT 0 TO START WITH, SO REI HAD
> TO START FROM SCRATCH!
I don't think so. I think it has more to do with the fact that Rei
is "synching" with herself as well as Rei's inherent mental instability
at that point. The Evas work on a mother-child link over the A-10
nerve. Rei-001 is "like" Rei-002's mother, but she isn't her actual
mother, so that is where the problem lies in my opinion.
> Theory#7 So why would Unit 0 go berserk?
>
> From the above, Unit 0 has a void, a vacuum within that needs
> to be filled with the fullness of experience that a Human soul
> holds... It WANTS more soul... BUT! Rei won't relinquish
> any more soul to it... And there's enough of 'Rei' in Unit 0, enough
> of her "You won't die... I will protect you..." mentality towards
> Shinji to prevent Unit 0 from trying to absorb Shinji!
Though there isn't anything that directly contradicts it, I really don't
like the idea of "parts" of the soul. My impression of "The Soul"
has always had an atomicity about it. You can't split a soul,
or break it apart, you can't have a "bit" of a soul. That is just
my opinion though, based mostly on the fact that whenever souls
are mentioned in Eva it is always "The Soul", they never mention
"part of the soul".
> Both times Unit 0 went berserk, it was in a fit of frustration.
> Unit 0 went berserk, because Rei WOULDN'T let it have
> any more of her soul, & because the 'part' of Rei inside Unit
> 0 WOULDN'T try to harm Shinji by attempting to take his soul...
How do you explain Ritsuko's statement that Eva-00 was targeting
her "without a doubt"?
> This might explain why the 'pattern' between Unit 0 & 1 are
> similar enough for Shinji to try & pilot Unit 0, & why Rei can
> pilot Unit 1. If the Clone that became 'Rei' had originally been
> 'programmed' or otherwise had her 'personality' jump-started
> by a download of data held in Unit 1's core, then she could
> pass a similar looking 'download' onto Unit 0.
Overall this theory just seems way to complicated for my liking.
A number of things I think are flat out wrong (the Rei clones
in the tank are soulless according to Ritsuko), but generally I
like Occam's Razor rules. It seems to me that you are trying
to complicate things when they are already complicated enough.
--
Michael Wignall
"Tomorrow's just an excuse away..."
Disaster
I have a few things to add. Not much to alter Michael's POV, in fact I
think he answered everything rather well in his frustrating manner. This
is of course a reference to all that damn evidence! ;)
> Rei was created sometime _after_ March 30th, 2004 (Yui was 17
> when she "died" and was born in 1977)".
Are you sure she was 17? I was born in '77 and I seem to remember the
years '92 and '93 while I was 17.
> > However! Could the comment refer to Yui's genetic material
> > already contained in the Clones, or some sort of 'Mental' or
> > other 'Personality Booster' derived from RNA encoded pieces
> > of memory in the soup Yui became, or even reverse-downloads
> > of data from the Core of Unit 1? Tip the vat of Yui-Goop into
> > the Clone Tank, let everything simmer for as the Clones absorb
> > Yui's Humanity via electronic osmosis, & Hey Presto! Instant
> > Personality!
If you claim that the subject has been reduced to the point where they no
longer have valid DNA samples or at least unusable ones then you certainly
imply that RNA is also a pointless reference.
> > It would also make more sense from a 'Bio Ethics' point of view
> > - if Yui used her own DNA in making the Clones, she wouldn't
> > need permission from the DNA donor, & there would be less
> > chance of things boiling over when the subject of 'destructive
> > testing' came up...
>
> One thing you are missing is that Rei's origins are supposed to be
> a secret, even from SEELE. In episode 23, Fuyutsuki worries
> about what SEELE will do if they discover that Rei is alive. Rei
> is special, but no one is supposed to know that she is special.
Yes, the whole set up is secret not to mention that SEELE is a big
believer in the end's justify the means, like Gendo. Breaking ethical and
moral codes is not an issue where these people are concerned.
> Yes. The MP Evas must have souls to produce AT Fields,
> however they use only the Dummy Plugs, so they only "souls"
> in them are the souls of the Evas themselves, there are not living
> pilots in them.
Well living as a dog or cat lives. But no, there's no living soul there.
> > What of the seeming consciousness in the 'Soul-less' Clones
> > in the Dummy Plug Lab, the scene where Shinji speaks Rei's name,
> > & all of the Clones 'wake up' & smile at Shinji?
>
> That's a tough one. Personally I think it was just for affect, that the
> soulless Rei's are not aware at all.
Ever see a Dog run to it's master because of the friendly voice? Or even
up to a stranger?
Just so as you all know I'm using animals in a soulless context.
> > Does 'Rei' move because her subconscious mind thinks she has
> > a 'soul' inside of her? Even if the soul is not her own? Could the
> >'soul' she have, be just another type of 'Dummy Plug'? One that's
> >designed for a Human sized body?
>
> What is the mind without the soul in the Eva Universe? The mind
> certainly doesn't belong to the brain. Shinji loses physical form
> completely, he no longer has a brain, but he still has his "mind".
*Nods*
It certainly looks like in the NGE universe the mind and soul are more or
less the same thing or at least inseparable and having very little to do
with the brain or even the body beyond a host to move around in and
interact with the environment.
> > The system of Dummy plug based on Rei's digitised personality,
> > is a refined version of the situation between an EVA & its pilot...
> > BUT! Rei herself is just another form of Dummy Plug, one that
> > has the memory of an artificial soul loaded into her living body,
> > rather than the data of a living body loaded into the Hard Disk
> > drives of the Dummy Plug unit.
>
> She is the vessel for Lilith's soul. The Dummy Plugs have no souls
> because it is impossible to digitise a soul. That is the major, very
> important difference between the two.
And a big problem that NERV spends a lot of time trying to work around.
> I don't think it indicates that they had any "part" of a soul at all.
Rei
> only has one soul, that of Lilith's and it is passed from one clone to
> the next when the previous one dies. Ritsuko states absolutely that
> the other clones in the take have no souls. I think that their reaction
> to Shinji's is sort of like a body still moving even after it's head has
> been cut off, it isn't indicative of a soul, or of awareness.
*Nods*
> > So, IF a soul can be shared between different beings, as it was
> > with Unit 2 & Asuka's mom - could that also explain the reaction
> > of the Tank Clones, Unit 0 & Rei's personality?
Even if you could use a partial soul theory it would then follow that the
clones, if they had partial souls, would travel the path of Asuka's mother
and go insane thus becoming useless to NERV.
> I don't think a soul can be _shared_ as such, but I do believe that
> it can be "imprinted". Kyouko's soul was imprinted into Eva-02,
> yet she still retained her soul herself. Different theory, similar
> end result.
The result of loosing ones soul and being left only with a husk and a
memory of a personality that slowly deteriorates?
> I think that Rei-001 was mentally unstable due to her soul
> being "imprinted" into Eva-00, similar to how Kyouko
> because mentally unstable after her soul was put into Eva-02.
I think that Rei was mentally unstable because she was not used to the
body that she found herself in.
> Though there isn't anything that directly contradicts it, I really don't
> like the idea of "parts" of the soul. My impression of "The Soul"
> has always had an atomicity about it. You can't split a soul,
> or break it apart, you can't have a "bit" of a soul. That is just
> my opinion though, based mostly on the fact that whenever souls
> are mentioned in Eva it is always "The Soul", they never mention
> "part of the soul".
I view the soul as a focal point of light that radiates it's
"personality." The light allows interaction with the soul and the core can
be looked at as a photosensitive item that can either take an imprint or
host the focus itself. We really have found nothing in NGE to suggest that
souls can be split.
Thanks for taking the lead in this one Michael.
Michael Wignall
news:uiijhe8...@corp.supernews.com...
> > when she "died" and was born in 1977)".
>
> Are you sure she was 17? I was born in '77 and I seem to remember the
> years '92 and '93 while I was 17.
That of course should be "27" instead of "17". She was 27 when she
"died".
Kakarotto
though, just some questions that arose from reading.
1. Why was 01 connected to Lilith?
2. Did they purposely put Liliths soul into Rei or was it an accident
because Yuis soul wouldn't return to the body?
3. Are the Rei bodies spawned from Lilith (you know all the little leggy
things).
4. If Asukas mother was to synch with 02 again, would it function properly,
would she be absorbed?
DBM
I originally wrote this reply to Mr Wignall's comments, & I had hoped
to detail responses to all of the points he raised. Unfortunately, I
was either unable to create a worthwhile counter, or else I was
unnerved by how 'large' my reply was ballooning out to. I'm still new
to sending News group posts, & I hope that the size of this one won't
cause problems. IF I've done it right, this message should only have
my new material in it, with a few references to Mr Wignall's missive.
Err... Mr Wignall, if Yui was born in 1977, & died in 2004, then she
was 26 to 27 ish, not 17... And while Kaworu & Rei may have
'human-shaped' bodies, their bodies are NOT human... More below...
Why not have Rei's 'birthday' the same as Yui's? There's no better
place to hide than in plain sight? After all, it would HAVE to be a
coincidence? Right? OR perhaps it could be seen as the act of a
maudlin Gendo, acting as guardian for a child he named after the
daughter he & his wife never had, an 'orphan' that Gendo allowed to
have the same birthday as his late wife...
Hm... Then again, too many would see the 'dark side' of that...
Then again, Rei was 'detanked' instead of being 'born', so she
COULDN'T have a 'birthday'... Wow, just like in MacBeth with the 'No
man born of woman...' loophole! A reference to a man born by
caesarean section, or as Willy put it, "...was from my mother's womb
untimely ripped..."
If Rei has no birthday, how DO you measure her age? A few thoughts...
-From the date her Primary Cell underwent Mitosis?
-From the date her/their Blastomeres were separated?
-From the date the embryos implanted in artificial placentas?
-From the date the foetuses could live without an artificial placenta?
-From the date she/they first showed 'awareness'?
-From the date a fully formed genetic construct came out of the tank
she'd been growing in for the last five years?
-From the level of intellectual development she has? (If she's a
Child Genius, do you declare her to be an 'Emancipated Minor'?)
-From the level of 'apparent physical development' (Can you say
'Precocious Puberty'? No? Well how about 'Underaged Jail Bait'?)
If Rei#1 WAS only 5 years old at her death, then either the Clones age
at a different rate to Humans, or else the Clones are of different
ages to each other, as Rei2 looked about 14 or 15 years old in the TV
series.
As for using 'fast-growth' drugs, & 'growth-hormones' on the Clones,
these are great things if you want a Tank full of cancerous blobs -
just ask any Body Builder who's run foul of 'side-effects'...
No, I have another theory, & it's so convoluted, you could put a
tapeworm in it & call it an intestine!
But first, my errors...
****Where does it say, 'Gendo created Rei...'
I'm sorry - I thought this was a reference from the 'Red Cross Book'?
I freely admit I may be wrong on this, but I've heard so many
discussions that use this point that I sort of accepted it as
'Canon'. - If I'm wrong, I apologise.
However, you have to admit, that the phrase does make the Commander of
NERV & the First Child look like Doctor Franken-Gendo & his
Creation... Hm... Perhaps I shouldn't have used that term... The
Doujinshi writers may do a 'Bride of Frankenstein' scenario...
****Occam's Razor... Where's Sweeny Todd when you need him? As for
me complicating EVA, well... Any theory complicates EVA, especially
if it tries to explain things to the satisfaction of a confused Fan...
Still (Blushes in embarrassment) I should have worded what I said
differently in my original post... It's just that if Yui was the
Genius whose work was so VITAL to the creation of Evangelions, just
what DID her work entail?
Could it be that Yui was involved in creating the absolutely vital
Neuro-feedback devices, that link the nervous systems of the EVA &
Pilot?
If so, Yui would need a series of 'Human equivalent' type nervous
systems to experiment with... Since such things are NOT easy to come
by ethically, perhaps the creation of 'Guinea Pigs', suitable for the
task was a solution she took? She could use her OWN DNA to create the
Rei Clones, & then use them as Guinea Pigs, skirting around
Bio-Ethics, & all the snoopy paperwork involved with 'volunteers'.
If Yui WAS involved in the creation of a Neuro-link, then that could
explain WHY she was involved in Piloting Unit 1. Yui may have been
too 'territorial' to let some mere 'College Graduate' pilot her Life's
Work. Then again, she might be the only one qualified enough to
provide 'real-time' critical analysis? All Ego aside, how many people
would have HER qualifications? And look no further than Ritsuko & the
MAGI for a working example of 'Genius on the spot, handling a
Crisis'...
Of course, the use of Yui's DNA in the Rei Clones, if done by Yui
herself, could have had ANOTHER significance...
If Yui created the Clones as part of research into creating
Evangelions, then the DNA information from Yui in the Clones may have
made Yui an IDEAL Pilot candidate for Unit 1, especially if the
Neuro-Link in Unit 1 was calibrated to the nervous system of a Clone,
a Clone who by virtue of being derived from Yui, had neuro-data VERY
SIMILAR to Yui's!
In this scenario, Yui may have accidentally created a greater
'affinity' between herself & Unit 1, allowing for her total
absorption, rather than the partial absorption Asuka's mum went
through. That is, Yui unknowingly 'fine-tuned' Unit 1 to Yui's OWN
nervous system, with the results we now know as canon.
By the way, this 'fine-tuning' to suit the inventor is a common
thing... As is 'fine-tuning' to suit the body parameters of any test
subject, especially where there are safety considerations...
Speaking of safety... IF the Clones were used as Guinea Pigs, were
they also in the EVA-Pilot neuro-link?
If the Clones were used to calibrate the system, then they might
possibly have been used as 'Canaries', disposable safety indicators
that reveal when dangers exceed safety margins. (From the ancient
mining practice of using a Canary bird to see if air in the mine was
stale or noxious...)
That is, the Clones may have been used in much the same way as an
'Earth Leakage' system is used to protect people from electrocution -
if the Clone is undergoing unusual stress, hit the 'Abort' button. Or
even as some sort of Mental Filter, similar to a UPS (Uninterruptible
Power Supply) on a computer, one that softens out surges, & augments
power during dropouts... Then again, maybe the Clone was just a
'self-sacrificing' sort of 'Lightning Arrester', like the Telephone
companies use on their phone lines...
However, one of the things about NGE, is the concept of
synchronisation, literally 'becoming one' with the EVA, feeling what
it feels, being able to influence the EVA's actions.
Could a Clone have been included in the set-up as a 'Pilot-Training'
exercise? Something that would 'sensitise' the blank mind of the
Clone in such a way that it might one day be able to 'Pilot' an EVA,
similar to how the 'Dummy Plug' would prove capable of? Some sort of
'Dummy Pilot' with far BETTER capabilities than the mere encoded data
in a Dummy Plug?
Scenario! Set-up like above - Yui gets absorbed - the Clone gets
'zapped' in the process - Yui's salvage attempt fails - but they get
an ALTERED Clone back - Gendo puts the Clone in 'Quarantine'
(Cryo-Stasis, or Cold Storage, like was done with Unit 1), while he
tries to sort the mess out...
IF this particular Clone WAS made by Yui, then 'Clone-X' could be
about the same age as Shinji. If Clone-X was put into 'Cryo-Stasis',
would she continue to grow at the same rate as the other Clones in the
Tank, especially if 'Cryo-Stasis', was some sort of 'Metabolic
Hibernation', or 'Suspended Animation'? I think she WOULDN'T grow
much, if at all!
As was pointed out, "The EOE theatrical program states that Rei was
created and _then_multiple clones were _prepared_ in terminal dogma"
Again, I feel the wording can be interpreted another way, 'Rei', the
fictitious character was created, & the already-existing Clones in
Terminal Dogma were prepared (conditioned, refurbished, etc, NOT
'created from scratch'), to receive 'upgrades' from Rei1, & not just
be used as 'Guinea Pigs' anymore... The key comment here is that
'Rei' was created, instead of clearly saying that '...the Rei Clones
were first created in year... such & such...'
Imagine this... Years pass, & Gendo makes a decision, or is FORCED to
make a decision about Clone-X & the Tank Clones, based on the
knowledge that Clone-X is NO LONGER a normal Clone - Lillith's soul,
Yui's memories, or whatever, are now inside it... And Clone-X is now
more like a real person...
Gendo makes a fateful decision, & Clone-X, her physical growth
prevented by her period of 'quarantine', is taken out of 'Cryo-Stasis'
& becomes Rei1, the basis of education for the other, more physically
developed Clones in the Tank..
End result, the theories are closer to being accommodated - Yui
created the Rei Clones, but 'Rei1' was created as a side effect of
trying to save Yui - Rei1's apparent 'age discrepancy' is resolved, as
is the possibility of Rei2 & Rei3 being 14 or 15 years old (however
you
measure it), the same as the other Children. The 'cherub' on the card
is one of Yui's 'in-jokes', something she needed to do to relieve some
of the stress she was working under...
Of course, trying to download the memories from a body that was
effectively several years younger than the bodies of the Clones in the
Tank, could have had undesirable side-effects on Rei1... She could
have become 'unbalanced'...
If Rei1 was created in the attempted salvage of Yui, then this raises
even more questions. Did Lillith's soul WILLING enter Rei1? Are Rei1
& the other Reis a tool of Lillith, more than she is a tool of Gendo?
Lillith: Gendo, I will make a contract with you...
Gendo: Sorry, you can't have my soul... I already sold it...
Lillith: Ah! Then in that case, let's talk about leasing mine...
Then again, the creation of 'Rei', may be just as I have theorised...
The creation of the fictitious character KNOWN as 'Ayanami Rei', & NOT
the Tank Clones themselves... Rei1 may have been the 'social
interaction prototype', the one they let grow 'normally' in an effort
to create the 'perfect Pilot', one that is educated exactly how Gendo
wants her educated, a talented fighter, loyal to a fault, following
orders
though it means her death, & also capable of acting as a 'role model'
or 'lifestyle template' for the Clones in the Tank..
We don't know what Gendo & Fuyutsuki did when bringing Rei1 up, how
they educated her, or even what they taught her. We don't know how
much Rei really KNOWS about herself, or her true origins. For that
matter, it's only LATE in the TV series, when Rei3 comes along that we
get any idea as to what Rei may be capable of...
Speaking of which, Rei made the comment that Kaworu was as Human as
she was (last two TV episodes)... Kaworu made the comment that HE was
composed of the same materials as the EVA's were (TV episode 24?), &
presumably this explains Kaworu & Rei's special abilities...
Quote attributed to Kaworu in TV ep24 from an earlier post, "Eva is
made of the same body as me. Because I'm also born of Adam." MADE...
of the same body as me... Kaworu, Rei, EVA's & Angels, ALL have
non-terrestrial matter in their bodies... The difference? Rei &
Kaworu are human-shaped, the EVA's are sort of human-shaped, while the
Angels are... whatever...
The Angels are NOT made of the same sort of matter that we are - this
is given in the TV show. The question then, is whether the normal
matter that comprises Human DNA is capable of being combined with
Angel Material. Perhaps not, but what of the 'patterns', the actual
data 'encoded' in the DNA? Could that information be recreated using
Angel Material?
Yes it could! Evidence Rei & Kaworu... Non-Terrestrial matter,
enslaved to a Human template... Just like the EVA's...
Question? What's in the pills Rei takes? Are they 'exotic'
supplements only available from Angels/EVA's? Would she suffer a
'vitamin' deficiency if she didn;t take them? She IS a
'vegetarian'...
****"How do you explain Ritsuko's statement that Eva-00 was targeting
her "without a doubt"?
By the time Rei2 was piloting Eva 0, Ritsuko was already becoming
'uneasy' about whether or not Rei2 was more important to Gendo than
Ritsuko was. This comes to a head when SEELE asks Ritsuko whether or
not she knew that Gendo had selected Ritsuko to be interrogated in
Rei's place.
Basically, Ritsuko comments were the result of BAD case of guilt,
possibly inspired by sexual jealousy.
Sexual Jealousy?
Hey, let's be totally honest here! Ritsuko was pushing thirty like
Misato was, Rei was a girl just starting to blossom into her
womanhood. Did Ritsuko see in the relationship between Gendo,
Ritsuko, & Rei2, a possible repeat of what happened with Gendo, Yui &
Naoko, especially in light of what later happened between Gendo, Naoko
& Ritsuko?
That is, Ritsuko saw herself as playing the parts of Yui & later
Naoko, in that she would be 'replaced' by another woman? That is,
that Ritsuko would 'lose' to the younger Rei, like Yui had 'lost' to
Naoko, & like Naoko had 'lost' to Ritsuko.
As was pointed out, "Ritsuko wasn't destroying the Rei clones because
she wanted to destroy the Dummy System, she did it because she wanted
to destroy Rei, to whom she had "lost" to."
Ritsuko & Rei... The unspoken Mother-Daughter bonding in NGE, with
all of the potential conflicts that such bonds can have... Especially
if the Mother thinks her 'boyfriend' might run off with her
daughter... (Another Special Topic, coming soon to Oprah/Jerry
Springer... if it hasn't already...)
While I do NOT believe that Gendo EVER had any intentions of treating
Rei as anything less than he would a daughter (although, maybe like a
traditional Bushido following warlord would have treated THEIR
daughter - 'Daughter, Go & Die with Honour on the Field of
Battle...'), Rei WOULD turn 15 in the show, & under current law in
Tokyo, be of legal age to have sex with anyone she wished to.
Ritsuko, being the one who did Rei's 'medicals', would know to the
millimetre just how much puberty was turning Rei into a woman...
Imagine this! Ritsuko, her 'spring' years behind her, was in the
lousy position of SO MANY other women in the world... That of
wondering if they were going to be 'traded in' for a younger model of
a 'Trophy Wife/Partner'... The fact that it had ALREADY 'appeared' to
have happened with Yui & Naoko, is probably the PRIME motivation
behind Ritsuko's destruction of the resources in the Dummy Plug Lab...
As Ritsuko said, "I'm destroying them. These aren't human, just things
with human forms..."
The same comment could & HAS been used in one form or another by any
group wishing to excuse their actions. Expect to see it used
frequently in the 'War On Terror' by BOTH sides. The 'Axis of Evil'
will accuse USA, Great Britain etc of being nothing more than
'Infidels' & 'Great Satans', etc...
Terrifying Example? A recent show on Australian TV showed the
opinions of several Israeli/Palestinian children towards each other -
It was exactly the same sort of animosity, with each group describing
the other as being 'filth', 'animals' or 'sub-human'... It was all
the more forceful in that several of the children had once seen each
other as friends, but were now considering becoming suicide bombers
against their 'enemy'...
The term, "Kill them all, let God sort them out..." was used in a
similar form back in the dark ages when entire villages were butchered
for Heresy. The idea was that God would claim any innocents
accidentally slain, so it was all right to slay indiscriminately,
without trial or proof of guilt...
If the Clones aren't human it isn't murder...
If the Clones are just 'things', (with or without 'human form'), then
they aren't even animals, & it isn't cruelty to destroy them...
****So who WAS Unit 0 trying to kill?
No-One at all...
You will remember that when Unit 0 went berserk, Gendo was standing
calmly at the window while it was punching the wall in? Gendo ONLY
lost his cool when Rei's entry plug was ejected...
Why would Gendo be so calm? Especially when you consider that Unit 1
SMASHED through a wall in the Geofront to attack an Angel.
(Admittedly it was later in the show, but you still DON'T stand idly
with your hands in your pockets when a Giant fist is coming at you!)
Could it be that Gendo knew the reinforced walls of the test facility
could contain the berserk EVA Unit 0? OR... could it be that Gendo
KNEW that Unit 0 was NOT using it's full strength? That the mere
'love taps' the berserk EVA was giving the wall, were merely the
ineffectual, blind ragings of an overgrown petulant child? Remember
that Unit 0 was banging its head against the walls of the facility, a
standard literary cliché for frustration.
Remember when Rei2 was watching Unit 0 go berserk with Shinji in it?
Again, she was calm. Did she know this was NOT an attack against the
people in the control room, but merely the frustrated ravings of a
thing denied its wants? (By the way, in the Manga, Rei plays a much
greater part in getting Shinji OUT of Unit 1 when he's been absorbed.
Rei2 'influences' the EVA into releasing Shinji.)
Gendo NEVER lets on all of what he knows, & if he's standing there,
being so calm, there must be a GOOD reason for it!
****Rei a secret from SEELE?
Sorry, I have SERIOUS problems with that concept...
Proof! Since Kaji is able to get into see 'Lillith', does any one
REALLY think SEELE wouldn't know about the Dummy Plug system? Hell,
they'd have spies everywhere! And if Professor Fuyutsuki could find
out 'irregularities' in Gendo's life, with his limited resources...
Or for THAT matter, if Naoko could get suspicious about the lack of
data on Rei, was that data also missing from the Ultra-Top-Secret
files SEELE had? And just how long would SEELE stand idly by when
their vital files don't have the info they want?
Let alone the little matter of Pilot selection by the Marduke
Agency... Even if Gendo is a part of the MA, there'd still be
'overseers' over him... Then there's Kaworu's talk with Rei, he
didn't seem surprised that 'you're the same as me...' rather he seemed
amused...
Nah, SEELE know about the Rei Clones, probably more than Ritsuko does,
however, what SEELE doesn't know about Rei, isn't IN any file, secret
or otherwise... It's what's inside Rei's HEART they want to know
about... They want to ask the disorientated Clone#3 questions... And
see what reactions Rei would have to the questions, JUST LIKE THEY DID
WITH RITSUKO!
A problem with the Pilot of Unit 0 living? Depends what you mean by
'living'... Rei2 made a comment about 'wanting to be one with Ikari
(Shinji)' just before she died. Did SEELE want to know if Rei#3 ALSO
had such, 'unnecessary emotional attractions' to others? Bonds that
MIGHT interfere with any plans SEELE may have? A Bond that DID
interfere with Gendo's plans for Rei in EOE?
For that matter, was Shinji supposed to be the pilot of Unit 1 in EOE
during the 'ceremony'? Or was Rei supposed to be? Remember that when
Shinji last tried to leave NERV, the core of Unit 1 was to be
rewritten for Rei...
No, if a Pilot with 'unsuitable emotional development' had somehow
'survived' the destruction of Unit 0, there could very well be
problems...
What I CAN see Gendo doing, is not letting SEELE get their hands on
Rei3, because the Clone is still disorientated & may say something
that's NOT healthy for her to say. Something along the lines of what
Rei3 said in the last two TV episodes, something about Gendo's plans
for her... Something that might make SEELE think they have enough
proof that Gendo is being a Smart Bugger, & *Terminate* Gendo's
employment, with extreme prejudice...
Then again, I could be completely wrong...
Gendo sat at his desk, mulling over SEELE's latest order, "Hm...
SEELE want to see Rei? This might not be... advisable..."
A vision came to Gendo, of what might possibly transpire...
SEELE: Who do you owe your allegiance to, Rei...
Rei: Commander Ikari...
SEELE: (Seemingly satisfied) Then as his superiors, you owe
allegiance to us as well... Ahead of Commander Ikari...
Rei: (Dead-pan expression) No... I only respect Commander Ikari...
I do not respect you...
SEELE: WHAT? You little... How can you respect that limp-wristed
Neo-Hippy Nazi? Especially when you've got all us Dead-Set Mysterious
Hard-Core Nazi's to look up to?
Rei: (Eyes glowing red as her AT Field springs up) You should not
bad-mouth the Commander... Hey-YAH!
Insert scene where an 'AT-Field empowered' Rei chastises SEELE, ala
how she did Shinji that time, albeit with an AT Field instead of a
hand...
SEELE: (the various tumbled & fractured blocks all rubbing the
AT-Field shaped marks on their collective cheeks) Guards!
Things go from bad to worse...
"Noooo...." Gendo broke out in a cold sweat at the prophetic vision of
doom, "After what her Dummy Plug did to Touji's EVA, I really can't
take the chance... Hm... Now Ritsuko on the other hand... YEAH!
Especially if she's starkers, that'll keep them off-balance!"
****Comment that Rei is a vessel for Lillith's soul, but still
different to an EVA.
Again, Eva is a vessel that contains another's soul... Rei is a
vessel that contains another's soul... EVA is a 'Clone' of an Angel,
& presumably composed of the same sort of 'exotic' matter an Angel
is... Rei admits Kaworu is as human as she is, & Kaworu admits he is
made out of the same material EVA's are, THAT'S HOW HE CAN CONTROL
THEM!
Question, the 'lifestyle' known as 'Ayanami Rei' is downloaded into
the Rei Clones, & enables them to function in society. Data, derived
from Rei, is downloaded into the Dummy Plugs, & enables an EVA to work
without a pilot... What then, is the practical difference between a
Rei Clone & An EVA?
Apart from Rei looks cuter, & has a larger fan base than Unit 1 has?
Conclusion, Rei & Kaworu are human sized versions of EVA's...
****Kaworu didn't get any help from Kyouko.
When you borrow a car, does it help if you don't have to fill it up
with gasoline? Since Kyouko was IN Unit 2, even hiding, her presence
may have been some subtle aid to Kaworu, even if she did nothing to
actively help him.
****Sharing a soul.
This is an actual debate in Theological & genetic engineering circles.
It's a spin-off from the debate on when 'ensoulment' of a human
occurs - at conception? During gestation? At birth?
Clones are created in a variety of ways. Enucleation, which sees an
ovum filled with the desired genetic code. Blastomere separation,
which is where a group of developing cells are separated, & each grows
on it's own. Then there's 'budding', where a living thing (usually
one of the lower orders) has a bud swell up on its side, that
eventually turns into a miniature version of the adult before
separating & starting its own life. Then there's a similar use of
'cuttings' by gardeners, which also include the use of 'suckers'.
The problem is this, if ensoulment occurs at 'conception', then
Blastomere separation either divides the soul up among many bodies, or
else creates more residences for a soul to live in.
So how does that affect the World's first publicly acknowledged Human
Clone, who was born in England (Britain?) some years ago? They were
created through an accidental blastomere separation in a fertility
clinic, during the insertion of the Primary blastomere into the
uterus.
No big deal, since 'blastomere separation' is how truly Identical
Twins (etc) are supposed to be created. Since they are genetically
identical, even more so than other siblings from the same parents,
it's apparent that separation of blastomeres is something that occurs
naturally.
Regardless of whether or not you can believe that a soul can be
shared, or prefer to believe that souls cannot be separated, & then go
on to grow into a full soul, the fact remains that truly Identical
twins do have an unnerving tendency to speak in synch with each other,
& yes, I've seen this happen myself. Other strange 'coincidences'
with
identical Twins are often dismissed without adequate investigation as
being too outlandish for serious study, or else explained in less than
satisfactory terms by crystal hugging New-Age hippies.
Thanks very much, one & all for the constructive criticisms! I'll
keep an eye on this thread for more comments...
Yours, dbmacp...@INHIBITIONSuq.net.au
Remove INHIBITIONS to reply.
Michael Wignall
news:NCeW8.4992$7G4.7...@news.xtra.co.nz...
> I love this sort of conversation, I don't really have anything to say
> though, just some questions that arose from reading.
>
> 1. Why was 01 connected to Lilith?
Because it was created out of Lilith's legs.
> 2. Did they purposely put Liliths soul into Rei or was it an
> accident because Yuis soul wouldn't return to the body?
I personally think it was an accident. They were trying to get
Yui back in her body, they got Lilith instead.
> 3. Are the Rei bodies spawned from Lilith (you know all the
> little leggy things).
I think it's a possibility.
> 4. If Asukas mother was to synch with 02 again, would it function
> properly, would she be absorbed?
I don't think she "synch'ed" with it in the first place. That would imply
there was something there to synch with.
Disaster
> "Kakarotto" <kaka...@xtra.co.nz> wrote:
> > 2. Did they purposely put Liliths soul into Rei or was it an
> > accident because Yuis soul wouldn't return to the body?
>
> I personally think it was an accident. They were trying to get
> Yui back in her body, they got Lilith instead.
There is of course the idea that it was meant to appear as an accident.
Yui's initial absorption certainly was made to look like an accident.
> > 4. If Asukas mother was to synch with 02 again, would it function
> > properly, would she be absorbed?
>
> I don't think she "synch'ed" with it in the first place. That would
imply
> there was something there to synch with.
*Nods*
Same scenario as when Yui got absorbed although they might have tried to
keep the body alive in the hopes of perhaps merely imprinting her soul
into the Eva. This is of course theory only. They did the same thing as
they did with Yui, only in this case the body did not apparently follow
the soul.
Disaster
> Touché, Mr Wignall, Some Very Good points for me to consider!
>
> I originally wrote this reply to Mr Wignall's comments, & I had hoped
> to detail responses to all of the points he raised. Unfortunately, I
> was either unable to create a worthwhile counter, or else I was
> unnerved by how 'large' my reply was ballooning out to. I'm still new
> to sending News group posts, & I hope that the size of this one won't
> cause problems. IF I've done it right, this message should only have
> my new material in it, with a few references to Mr Wignall's missive.
>
> Err... Mr Wignall, if Yui was born in 1977, & died in 2004, then she
> was 26 to 27 ish, not 17... And while Kaworu & Rei may have
> 'human-shaped' bodies, their bodies are NOT human... More below...
We know for a fact that Rei's body is human as it was cloned from Yui's
DNA and Yui is human. Further even if her soul had influence on this
process, it's the mother of humanity touching a body for her soul. If
anything this would make it more human.
(Michael knows how old Yui was, that was a typo as discussed previously)
> Why not have Rei's 'birthday' the same as Yui's? There's no better
> place to hide than in plain sight? After all, it would HAVE to be a
> coincidence? Right? OR perhaps it could be seen as the act of a
> maudlin Gendo, acting as guardian for a child he named after the
> daughter he & his wife never had, an 'orphan' that Gendo allowed to
> have the same birthday as his late wife...
This is over analysis. Rei's birthday would be the day that her body was
first created. Whatever that happens to be, I doubt it's Yui's birthday,
likely it appears that it is in fact her absorption date.
> If Rei has no birthday, how DO you measure her age? A few thoughts...
> -From the date her Primary Cell underwent Mitosis?
> -From the date her/their Blastomeres were separated?
> -From the date the embryos implanted in artificial placentas?
> -From the date the foetuses could live without an artificial placenta?
> -From the date she/they first showed 'awareness'?
> -From the date a fully formed genetic construct came out of the tank
> she'd been growing in for the last five years?
> -From the level of intellectual development she has? (If she's a
> Child Genius, do you declare her to be an 'Emancipated Minor'?)
> -From the level of 'apparent physical development' (Can you say
> 'Precocious Puberty'? No? Well how about 'Underaged Jail Bait'?)
How about since the creation of man if you want to get into this? Tell me
sir the age of Lilith, and I shall show you the age of Rei.
> If Rei#1 WAS only 5 years old at her death, then either the Clones age
> at a different rate to Humans, or else the Clones are of different
> ages to each other, as Rei2 looked about 14 or 15 years old in the TV
> series.
The Clones were created at about the same age and continue to grow along
side each other even though they appear to be mentally blank. Clones can
do this!
> No, I have another theory, & it's so convoluted, you could put a
> tapeworm in it & call it an intestine!
Except that I just gave you the answer and it's really straight forward.
> But first, my errors...
>
> ****Where does it say, 'Gendo created Rei...'
>
> I'm sorry - I thought this was a reference from the 'Red Cross Book'?
> I freely admit I may be wrong on this, but I've heard so many
> discussions that use this point that I sort of accepted it as
> 'Canon'. - If I'm wrong, I apologise.
>
> However, you have to admit, that the phrase does make the Commander of
> NERV & the First Child look like Doctor Franken-Gendo & his
> Creation... Hm... Perhaps I shouldn't have used that term... The
> Doujinshi writers may do a 'Bride of Frankenstein' scenario...
I would prefer you remained objective.
> ****Occam's Razor... Where's Sweeny Todd when you need him? As for
> me complicating EVA, well... Any theory complicates EVA, especially
> if it tries to explain things to the satisfaction of a confused Fan...
This is an excuse to quit. Not a rational theory to those questions we
find hard to answer.
> Still (Blushes in embarrassment) I should have worded what I said
> differently in my original post... It's just that if Yui was the
> Genius whose work was so VITAL to the creation of Evangelions, just
> what DID her work entail?
The creation of the Eva unit's. Exactly what you just said.
> Could it be that Yui was involved in creating the absolutely vital
> Neuro-feedback devices, that link the nervous systems of the EVA &
> Pilot?
That would be part of it.
> If so, Yui would need a series of 'Human equivalent' type nervous
> systems to experiment with... Since such things are NOT easy to come
> by ethically, perhaps the creation of 'Guinea Pigs', suitable for the
> task was a solution she took? She could use her OWN DNA to create the
> Rei Clones, & then use them as Guinea Pigs, skirting around
> Bio-Ethics, & all the snoopy paperwork involved with 'volunteers'.
First of all, there is nothing to support this. Second that does not get
you around the ethics and lastly, once again, ethics are not an issue with
SEELE.
> If Yui WAS involved in the creation of a Neuro-link, then that could
> explain WHY she was involved in Piloting Unit 1. Yui may have been
> too 'territorial' to let some mere 'College Graduate' pilot her Life's
> Work. Then again, she might be the only one qualified enough to
> provide 'real-time' critical analysis? All Ego aside, how many people
> would have HER qualifications? And look no further than Ritsuko & the
> MAGI for a working example of 'Genius on the spot, handling a
> Crisis'...
O_o
Listen to yourself. Yui didn't work on one aspect of Eva, she provided the
main thrust in it's research. She was the head of Project E at the time.
> In this scenario, Yui may have accidentally created a greater
> 'affinity' between herself & Unit 1, allowing for her total
> absorption, rather than the partial absorption Asuka's mum went
> through. That is, Yui unknowingly 'fine-tuned' Unit 1 to Yui's OWN
> nervous system, with the results we now know as canon.
This is assumes that their were clones before Yui's absorption which of
course there were not as the clones were created after the event mostly
likely as a result of the absorption.
> However, one of the things about NGE, is the concept of
> synchronisation, literally 'becoming one' with the EVA, feeling what
> it feels, being able to influence the EVA's actions.
The idea is not to become one but to become linked and control not
influence the Eva's actions completely. The link may feel like you are
becoming one but obviously you are not, unless it gets out of control
apparently.
I would love to finish this but I need to get to sleep!
Michael Wignall
<Snip>
Some major snipping done here to keep the size down. I will
focus on the major points and summarise any big sections I snip.
> Err... Mr Wignall, if Yui was born in 1977, & died in 2004,
> then she was 26 to 27 ish, not 17...
That was a typo, as I said in another post. She was 27 when
she died (according to the EoE theatrical program).
> And while Kaworu & Rei may have 'human-shaped' bodies,
> their bodies are NOT human...
Kaoru states in following in episode 24 upon meeting Rei:
"So you're the First Children? Ayanami Rei. You're the
same as me. We've both taken the Lilim's form as our
body to live on this planet."
It's not an issue that they have "human form". What is this issue
is where these bodies came from. Rei's is simple, we are told
directly that her body was created from the remains of Yui.
She has a human body and the soul of Lilith. Kaoru is a little
more complicated. He has Adam's soul, and we are told that
he and Rei are "alike". This goes into another whole line of
reasoning about the origins of Kaoru, his "birth" during the
Second Impact, and how he obtained Adam's soul. Suffice
it to say that he has Adam's soul, contained within a human
form. More on this below.
> Why not have Rei's 'birthday' the same as Yui's?
Why not have Pen-Pen's the same too for that matter, and Eva-01's
while we are at it. Megumi voiced them as well. It is stated directly
that Yui's birthday is the 30th of March, where as the EoE theatrical
program states directly that Rei's birthday is "Unknown".
> If Rei has no birthday, how DO you measure her age?
I would suggest you measure it from the date that she obtained
Lilith's soul. Rei is nothing without Lilith's soul. Each Rei, Rei-001,
Rei-002, and Rei-003 are defined by the time they existed with
Lilith's soul.
> If Rei#1 WAS only 5 years old at her death, then either the
> Clones age at a different rate to Humans, or else the Clones
> are of different ages to each other, as Rei2 looked about 14
> or 15 years old in the TV series.
I think Rei-001 looked 5 in episode 21. I think that after the
first Rei's death things were put up a notch. It was no longer
Gerhirn, doing research, it was now NERV, intent of stopping
the Angels, in order to do that a "battle ready' Rei had to be
created. I think that aged her 10 years in the space of 5 in order
to get her ready for the Angels return in 2015.
> ****Where does it say, 'Gendo created Rei...'
>
> I'm sorry - I thought this was a reference from the 'Red Cross Book'?
> I freely admit I may be wrong on this, but I've heard so many
> discussions that use this point that I sort of accepted it as
> 'Canon'. - If I'm wrong, I apologise.
That is never stated absolutely in the EoE theatrical program as
far as I can remember. If you can find the quote then it would
be helpful.
> ****Occam's Razor...
<Snip>
> It's just that if Yui was the Genius whose work was so VITAL to
> the creation of Evangelions, just what DID her work entail?
...the creation of the Evas...
The creation of Eva-01 out of Lilith's legs and the ultimate placement
of her own soul into it (which she knew would happen in advance).
> Could it be that Yui was involved in creating the absolutely
> vital Neuro-feedback devices, that link the nervous systems
> of the EVA & Pilot?
Sure she _could_ have been. She _could_ have been involved in
almost any aspect of the Evas construction.
> If so, Yui would need a series of 'Human equivalent' type
> nervous systems to experiment with...
That's a rather large assumption, again, Occam's razor.
> She could use her OWN DNA to create the Rei Clones, &
> then use them as Guinea Pigs, skirting around Bio-Ethics, &
> all the snoopy paperwork involved with 'volunteers'.
And here is an even bigger, completely unfounded, assumption.
The point is really moot though, the EoE theatrical program states
explicitly that Rei's "body was created from the salvaged remains
of Yui Ikari _after_ Yui was taken into the Eva"
> If Yui WAS involved in the creation of a Neuro-link, then that
> could explain WHY she was involved in Piloting Unit 1.
Yui explains why she does it in the Japanese "video" version of
episode 21 (in the flashback to the Lake Ashinoko Levee, Hakone
in 2003). She says she is doing it for "Shinji's sake".
Also from the end of Episode 26' it seems that Yui wanted to be the
"eternal proof that humankind has existed" within Eva-01.
> Of course, the use of Yui's DNA in the Rei Clones, if done
> by Yui herself, could have had ANOTHER significance...
<Snip big long explanation>
Again it is a moot point, becuase Rei was created _after_
Yui was absorbed, she wasn't created by Yui. In my opinion
she was an accidental side effect of the salvage operation to
retrieve Yui. Yui didn't want to come, so they got Lilith's soul
in Rei's body instead.
> As was pointed out, "The EOE theatrical program states that
> Rei was created and _then_multiple clones were _prepared_
> in terminal dogma"
Not quite, it states that "Her _body_ was created from the
salvaged remains of Yui Ikari after Yui was taken into the Eva,
and numerous Rei clones were then prepared in Terminal Dogma
so that when one Rei dies she can be replaced by another."
It specifically states that her _body_ was created _after_ Yui
was absorbed. Yui was absorbed sometime after March 30th,
2004, so Rei was created sometime _after_ that point. This
wording is quite specific, I don't see how you can interpret it
to mean that the "character" of Rei was created at that point, but
the clones already existed. It states specifically that Rei's body
was created after Yui was absorbed.
> Speaking of which, Rei made the comment that Kaworu was
> as Human as she was (last two TV episodes)... Kaworu made
> the comment that HE was composed of the same materials as
> the EVA's were (TV episode 24?), & presumably this explains
> Kaworu & Rei's special abilities...
Again I don't think it's an attribute of the body, but rather the soul.
The AT Field is produced by the soul, not the body. More on this
below. Their "special abilities" as you put are a result of their special
souls.
> Quote attributed to Kaworu in TV ep24 from an earlier post,
> "Eva is made of the same body as me. Because I'm also born of
> Adam." MADE... of the same body as me... Kaworu, Rei,
> EVA's & Angels, ALL have non-terrestrial matter in their bodies...
Ah... _Everyone_ has "non-terrestrial" matter in their bodies. Lilith
is the progenitor of Humanity and she came to Earth along with Adam
at the time of the First Impact. A distinction needs to be made between
Adam and Lilith and the Children of Adam and Lilith (the Angels and
Humanity respectively).
Rei is _not_ a child of Adam. She has a human body and Lilith's soul.
Kaoru _is_ a Child of Adam, he is an Angel, "born" of Adam, who
also has Adam's soul. He has taken the Lilim's form though. The Evas
are cloned directly from Adam (they are not "children" as such), all
except from Eva-01 which was created directly out of Lilith's legs.
> The difference? Rei & Kaworu are human-shaped, the EVA's
> are sort of human-shaped, while the Angels are... whatever...
What makes you think that Rei doesn't have a human body?
> ****"How do you explain Ritsuko's statement that Eva-00
> was targeting her "without a doubt"?
>
> By the time Rei2 was piloting Eva 0, Ritsuko was already
> becoming 'uneasy' about whether or not Rei2 was more
> important to Gendo than Ritsuko was. This comes to a
> head when SEELE asks Ritsuko whether or not she knew
> that Gendo had selected Ritsuko to be interrogated in Rei's
> place.
That's episode 23, Eva-00 didn't even exist anymore at that
point. Ritsuko makes the statement that it was after her "without
a doubt" back in episode 14.
> Basically, Ritsuko comments were the result of BAD case
> of guilt, possibly inspired by sexual jealousy.
She says "machigai naku", she is a scientist, a logical person.
She hears Misato suggest that the target was Rei, but rejects
that idea and says it was after her "without a doubt". That is
about as absolute as you get in Eva.
> As was pointed out, "Ritsuko wasn't destroying the Rei clones
> because she wanted to destroy the Dummy System, she did
> it because she wanted to destroy Rei, to whom she had "lost" to."
Again, that was episode 23. At the time of episode 14 she had time
to think calmly about the incident, to reflect to it and the previous one
with Rei in Eva-00, and she stated absolutely, without any doubt, that
she was the target.
> ****So who WAS Unit 0 trying to kill?
>
> No-One at all...
>
> You will remember that when Unit 0 went berserk, Gendo was
> standing calmly at the window while it was punching the wall in?
> Gendo ONLY lost his cool when Rei's entry plug was ejected...
>
> Why would Gendo be so calm? Especially when you consider
> that Unit 1 SMASHED through a wall in the Geofront to attack
> an Angel. (Admittedly it was later in the show, but you still
> DON'T stand idly with your hands in your pockets when a
> Giant fist is coming at you!)
You will note that when this happened (in episode 19), Gendou
didn't react either, even when he was splashed and covered in the
Evas blood. He was calm then as well. That is the way Gendou is,
he was calm also in episode 01, when the girder flew up and
smashed into the window he was standing behind. He didn't
react then, why should he when Eva-00 hits the window in front
of him?
Again, Ritsuko states it was targeting her "without a doubt".
> ****Rei a secret from SEELE?
>
> Sorry, I have SERIOUS problems with that concept...
From episode 23:
----
Gendou: That's right. Preserve the present status for the First
Children. No need to capture. This applies to the Second and
Third as well. Just watch them.
Fuyutsuki : Yet, if they find out Rei is alive, Chairman Kihl and
the others will blame us.
Gendou: I'll present something else to the old men of Seele.
There's no problem.
----
Of course SEELE do find out that she is alive, but this indicates
that Gendou and Fuyutuski didn't want them to know about it.
> Proof! Since Kaji is able to get into see 'Lillith', does any
> one REALLY think SEELE wouldn't know about the Dummy
> Plug system?
The Dummy Plug system doesn't imply anything other than they
are using "someone" as the base personality pattern for the Dummy's.
SEELE had their own system using Kaoru's personality pattern.
The fact that it existed doesn't betray Rei's secret.
> And just how long would SEELE stand idly by when their
> vital files don't have the info they want?
Gendou gave them Ritsuko to pacify them. Gendou held all the
cards in the end. He didn't want the lance because he didn't
need it. He had Rei, who could take him to Lilith, and he had
Adam as well. SEELE only find out about Kaji stealing Adam
around episode 21 remember. They are not omnipotent. Gendou
keeps secrets from them, and Rei is one of them.
> Let alone the little matter of Pilot selection by the Marduke
> Agency... Even if Gendo is a part of the MA, there'd still
> be 'overseers' over him...
Gendou and Co _are_ the Marduk Institute. That is what Kaji
discovers in episode 15, the President of the Institute is non other
than Kouzou Fuyutsuki. They can choose whomever they want
to be a pliot. Look at Touji. Ritsuko just told Gendou that there
was a child whose Core could be prepared immediately and
Gendou said to appoint him to be the Fourth. There was no
discussing it with SEELE.
> Then there's Kaworu's talk with Rei, he didn't seem surprised
> that 'you're the same as me...' rather he seemed amused...
Kaoru is amused about everything. You can't take any of his
actions seriously anyway because he is told directly by SEELE
in the Japanese "Video" version of episode 24 that Adam's body
is in Gendou, yet he still goes down to Terminal Dogma and is
"surprised" that the being on the cross is Lilith and not Adam.
> Did SEELE want to know if Rei#3 ALSO had such,
> 'unnecessary emotional attractions' to others? Bonds that
> MIGHT interfere with any plans SEELE may have?
Rei wasn't a part of SEELE's plan. They didn't care about her.
They say in EoE that because the Lance is lost they must proceed
with Eva-01, Lilith's soul clone. They didn't get the JSSDF to try
and capture Rei (like they did with Shinji), they only focused on
Eva-01 and the MP Evas to initiate Instrumentality. Rei wasn't
part of SEELE's plans like she was part of Gendou's. SEELE
didn't want to use Lilith at all after they had lost the Lance.
> Remember that when Shinji last tried to leave NERV, the
> core of Unit 1 was to be rewritten for Rei...
And also remember that post episode 18, Eva-01 wouldn't
accept anyone but Shinji. Not Rei, not the Dummy Plug, only
Shinji.
> ****Comment that Rei is a vessel for Lillith's soul, but still
> different to an EVA.
>
> Again, Eva is a vessel that contains another's soul... Rei
> is a vessel that contains another's soul... EVA is a 'Clone'
> of an Angel, & presumably composed of the same sort of
> 'exotic' matter an Angel is...
The Evas are clones of Adam though (except for Lilith) while
Rei's body was created fromt he remains of Yui. Rei has a human
body and the soul of the progenitor of humanity, Lilith. The Evas
are clones of a source of life (Adam, progenitor of the Angels)
(except for Eva-01) and they have human souls. Can't you see
the difference?
> Rei admits Kaworu is as human as she is, & Kaworu
> admits he is made out of the same material EVA's are,
> THAT'S HOW HE CAN CONTROL THEM!
He can control them _because_ he is "born of Adam". Eva-02
is a clone of Adam and Kaoru possesses Adam's soul. Rei
is not an Angel, (unless of course you subscribe to the definition
that _everything_ is an Angel). Rei has a human body and the
soul of Lilith. Neither Humans nor Lilith are Children of Adam.
> What then, is the practical difference between a Rei Clone & An EVA?
As I said above. Rei has a human body and Lilith's soul, while the Evas
have bodys made from 'Sources of life' and have Human souls. It is the
soul that is important for creating the AT field and determining a being's
"pattern".
> ****Kaworu didn't get any help from Kyouko.
>
> When you borrow a car, does it help if you don't have to
> fill it up with gasoline? Since Kyouko was IN Unit 2, even
> hiding, her presence may have been some subtle aid to
> Kaworu, even if she did nothing to actively help him.
If anything it would be a hindrance. He says that "When
the unit doesn't have a soul, I can unite with it.". Eva-02
does have a soul but, as he says next "The soul of Unit
02 is shutting itself up now.".
> ****Sharing a soul.
I am focusing on the Eva universe here. To tell the truth I personally
don't believe in souls, (I don't believe they don't exist, I just don't
believe they do). In the Eva Universe however we _know_ souls
exist, but they are _only_ ever referred to as _the_ soul, never
"part" of the soul. Which is why I believe that within the Eva universe
a soul cannot be "split", hence the "imprint" theory, which creates
"duplicates".
Anyway I'm going to bed, night all.
Richard Liang
<snip>
>If Rei#1 WAS only 5 years old at her death, then either the Clones age
>at a different rate to Humans, or else the Clones are of different
>ages to each other, as Rei2 looked about 14 or 15 years old in the TV
>series.
>
This has been bugging me for a while... Rei was allegedly created in
2004. Presumably Gendo had something to do with it, as he had said that
had the baby which turned out to be Shinji had been a girl, he would
have named her Rei. However, it's tough to say exactly how old she
looks when she meets Naoko and Ritsuko for the first time. I could sort
of see how she might look almost 9-10 years old there. She looks the
same age as Shinji and Asuka in 2015, and no comments are made about her
looking very young or anything by Toji and Kensuke, who have known her
for two years by this point.
Basically my point is that I don't really believe that she undergoes
accelerated growth or anything, nor do I believe that she was actually
created at the same time as Shinji was born. I think she ages just like
Shinji and Asuka EXCEPT for when she was first grown in a laboratory, at
which time she must've developed quickly. All this hinges, though, on
exactly the level of physical and psychological maturity of Rei in 2010,
when Ritsuko and Naoko meet her. I personally could see her being 9-10
years old at that point. We see Shinji at age 3 and Asuka at age 4, and
Rei doesn't speak like she's that young. What are people's thoughts
about this?
Richard
Disaster
> > 'unnecessary emotional attractions' to others? Bonds that
> > MIGHT interfere with any plans SEELE may have?
>
> Rei wasn't a part of SEELE's plan. They didn't care about her.
> They say in EoE that because the Lance is lost they must proceed
> with Eva-01, Lilith's soul clone. They didn't get the JSSDF to try
> and capture Rei (like they did with Shinji), they only focused on
> Eva-01 and the MP Evas to initiate Instrumentality. Rei wasn't
> part of SEELE's plans like she was part of Gendou's. SEELE
> didn't want to use Lilith at all after they had lost the Lance.
I would not call what the JSSDF intended to do with Shinji as a "capture!"
> > ****Comment that Rei is a vessel for Lillith's soul, but still
> > different to an EVA.
> >
> > Again, Eva is a vessel that contains another's soul... Rei
> > is a vessel that contains another's soul... EVA is a 'Clone'
> > of an Angel, & presumably composed of the same sort of
> > 'exotic' matter an Angel is...
>
> The Evas are clones of Adam though (except for Lilith) while
> Rei's body was created fromt he remains of Yui. Rei has a human
> body and the soul of the progenitor of humanity, Lilith. The Evas
> are clones of a source of life (Adam, progenitor of the Angels)
> (except for Eva-01) and they have human souls. Can't you see
> the difference?
These are rather important and obvious differences. Although Michael's
first line there should have read, in the brackets, "(except for Unit one,
which is of Lilith)."
> > What then, is the practical difference between a Rei Clone & An EVA?
>
> As I said above. Rei has a human body and Lilith's soul, while the Evas
> have bodys made from 'Sources of life' and have Human souls. It is the
> soul that is important for creating the AT field and determining a
being's
> "pattern".
These are very practical and important differences. Also well established
I might add.
> > ****Kaworu didn't get any help from Kyouko.
> >
> > When you borrow a car, does it help if you don't have to
> > fill it up with gasoline? Since Kyouko was IN Unit 2, even
> > hiding, her presence may have been some subtle aid to
> > Kaworu, even if she did nothing to actively help him.
>
> If anything it would be a hindrance. He says that "When
> the unit doesn't have a soul, I can unite with it.". Eva-02
> does have a soul but, as he says next "The soul of Unit
> 02 is shutting itself up now.".
To go back to the car, does it help when the sales man sits in the drivers
seat with you?
> > ****Sharing a soul.
>
> I am focusing on the Eva universe here. To tell the truth I personally
> don't believe in souls, (I don't believe they don't exist, I just don't
> believe they do). In the Eva Universe however we _know_ souls
> exist, but they are _only_ ever referred to as _the_ soul, never
> "part" of the soul. Which is why I believe that within the Eva universe
> a soul cannot be "split", hence the "imprint" theory, which creates
> "duplicates".
I come from the other side of the scale. I do believe in souls from a
Christian stand point and as such draw comparisons between those souls we
find in NGE and the ones I find in the real world. These all point to a
focal point that represent and encompass a personality. You can not split
a bowl in half to share the soup.
> Anyway I'm going to bed, night all.
Sleep well! :)
Disaster
Well as pointed out before hand, Rei was not grown in a lab. Nor does she
possess what you would call a normal upbringing or even a standard soul.
Rei was born and raised in what we could only call alien circumstances.
That is not to say she flew down in a spaceship or anything like that.
When we she Rei I she appears to be around the age of 5, not 10. When we
see Rei II she appears to be about 14. The only conclusion based on the
dates and amount of time that we know to have expired, Rei must have
somehow either on her own or artificially, acquired accelerated growth.
I would like to ask though where you got the idea that she was created at
the same time as Shinji?
Richard Liang
><snip>
>
>Well as pointed out before hand, Rei was not grown in a lab. Nor does she
>possess what you would call a normal upbringing or even a standard soul.
>Rei was born and raised in what we could only call alien circumstances.
>That is not to say she flew down in a spaceship or anything like that.
>
>When we she Rei I she appears to be around the age of 5, not 10. When we
>see Rei II she appears to be about 14. The only conclusion based on the
>dates and amount of time that we know to have expired, Rei must have
>somehow either on her own or artificially, acquired accelerated growth.
>
Yeah, watching at the episode again I'm having a tough time convincing
myself that the little Rei with Gendo in episode 21 is any older than
5-6 years old, especially since at the time of her death, Rei II is
twice Rei I's height in episode 21. And, according to the Death &
Rebirth website, Rei is "a stoic girl of fourteen." I guess there's no
getting around it.
>I would like to ask though where you got the idea that she was created at
>the same time as Shinji?
>
Oops, I meant, like, in the same year :)
Richard
Disaster
> Disaster wrote:
> Yeah, watching at the episode again I'm having a tough time convincing
> myself that the little Rei with Gendo in episode 21 is any older than
> 5-6 years old, especially since at the time of her death, Rei II is
> twice Rei I's height in episode 21. And, according to the Death &
> Rebirth website, Rei is "a stoic girl of fourteen." I guess there's no
> getting around it.
I wouldn't be looking to closely at any website bar the FAQ's that have
come about as a result of this group. They have too often proven
themselves to be more or less useless.
> > I would like to ask though where you got the idea that she was created
at
> > the same time as Shinji?
>
> Oops, I meant, like, in the same year :)
Yeah but as I understand it they are around 5 years apart, chronologically
speaking of course.
Richard Liang
>>Oops, I meant, like, in the same year :)
>>
>>
>
>Yeah but as I understand it they are around 5 years apart, chronologically
>speaking of course.
>
It's a theory that I came up with a while ago, and a theory that DBM
came up with too. Would have explained a lot (under the assumption that
the Rei that appears in ep 21 is of the same physical and psychological
maturity as your average 10 year old... which it appears she isn't).
Richard
Kakarotto
"Michael Wignall" <wi...@evangelion.com> wrote in message
news:DDiW8.629$Cq.2...@ozemail.com.au...
> >
> > 1. Why was 01 connected to Lilith?
>
> Because it was created out of Lilith's legs.
That still doesn't really mean anything, just cause they made it out of
Liliths legs doesn't explain why they connected it up to her.
Michael Wignall
I don't think you understand what happened..
Lilith's legs were connected to Lilith, then Lilith's legs appear to
have been "formed" into Eva-01, while they were still connected
to Lilith. So Lilith and Eva-01 were connected.
Kakarotto
Disaster
> "Michael Wignall" <wi...@evangelion.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > 1. Why was 01 connected to Lilith?
> >
> > Because it was created out of Lilith's legs.
>
> That still doesn't really mean anything, just cause they made it out of
> Liliths legs doesn't explain why they connected it up to her.
If they did not connect them up how else would the soul's have made those
transferences? I'm not sure how they are connected up mind you, I have not
seen the video. However, I would venture to put forth that NERV really was
only beginning to understand the idea's behind soul transfer.
Disaster
> "Kakarotto" <kaka...@xtra.co.nz> wrote:
> > "Michael Wignall" <wi...@evangelion.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > >
> > > Because it was created out of Lilith's legs.
> >
> > That still doesn't really mean anything, just cause they
> > made it out of Liliths legs doesn't explain why they
> > connected it up to her.
>
> I don't think you understand what happened..
>
> Lilith's legs were connected to Lilith, then Lilith's legs appear to
> have been "formed" into Eva-01, while they were still connected
> to Lilith. So Lilith and Eva-01 were connected.
I rather thought it was a biological connection.
Disaster
Well her mature state seems to be advanced. She speaks very well for a 5
year old, hell she spoke rather well for a 20 year old. One thing I like
to consider is that Shinji was at least 2-4 when he watched the experiment
absorbe his mother. You remember the scene where he is bashing the windows
in excitement while his mother went to play with pretty lights?
Michael Wignall
> Ok then so how was Yui "inside" Unit 01 as it was being formed?
Eva-01 was "formed' from Lilith's legs it seems, and prior
to Eva-01 being severed from Lilith, Yui did her "experiment"
and was absorbed.
So Eva-01 was still connected to Lilith when Yui was absorbed.
Michael Wignall
> "Michael Wignall" <wi...@evangelion.com> wrote:
> > "Kakarotto" <kaka...@xtra.co.nz> wrote:
> > > "Michael Wignall" <wi...@evangelion.com> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > 1. Why was 01 connected to Lilith?
> > > >
> > > > Because it was created out of Lilith's legs.
> > >
> > > That still doesn't really mean anything, just cause they
> > > made it out of Liliths legs doesn't explain why they
> > > connected it up to her.
> >
> > I don't think you understand what happened..
> >
> > Lilith's legs were connected to Lilith, then Lilith's legs appear to
> > have been "formed" into Eva-01, while they were still connected
> > to Lilith. So Lilith and Eva-01 were connected.
>
> I rather thought it was a biological connection.
Eva-01 is literally connected to Lilith.
Richard Liang
>Well her mature state seems to be advanced. She speaks very well for a 5
>year old, hell she spoke rather well for a 20 year old. One thing I like
>to consider is that Shinji was at least 2-4 when he watched the experiment
>absorbe his mother. You remember the scene where he is bashing the windows
>in excitement while his mother went to play with pretty lights?
>
>
It's that kind of behaviour that makes me suspect that Rei might be
around 9 years old at that point. At age 3 Shinji is just a typical
toddler. At age 4 Asuka speaks pretty well, but she's a child genius so
we can accept that. It's not a huge stretch to say that Rei looks a
little older than Shinji at 3 and Asuka at 4. However it *is* a bit of
a stretch to say that she looks 9-10 years old. I'd suspect that when
Rei was first created from Yui's genetic material she might've been
brought along until her body was of the physical maturity of a
3-year-old Yui, say, and then taken and raised, er, "normally" by
Gendo/the good folks at NERV.
Richard
Disaster
> "Disaster" <disa...@disfanfic.net> wrote:
> > I rather thought it was a biological connection.
>
> Eva-01 is literally connected to Lilith.
*Nods*
Salt16cay
question? If the all the Eva units are clones of Adam and Lilith and souls can
be imprented than why didn't they just build the Evas with imprints of the
souls of Adam and Liith? Why do they need teens to pliot as well as Yui and
Asuka's mother sariface. When it would have save them alot of trouble to just
make an eva imprint adam's and lilith's soul then use a remote dummy plug
system to control them.
Disaster
Well you see, the Eva doesn't use an imprint of a soul, they have to house
a real soul. In the NGE world Lilith and Adam are tied up somewhere else
for various reasons. Lilith is in the body of Rei to confuse and disorient
her and allow Gendo to control her actions and eventually take him to the
body of Lilith with the body of Adam. Adam was reduced to an embryo in 2nd
Impact and his soul somehow ended up in Tabris. They wanted in this case
the body of Adam without the troubles that his soul would cause.
The mothers of the pilots have not died as such they're souls live in the
Eva's. This is so that the children can Synch with them to control the
Eva. If you can think of the Eva's as the mothers new bodies. I hope that
I have not confused the issue any further! :)
Kakarotto
>
> Well you see, the Eva doesn't use an imprint of a soul, they have to house
> a real soul. In the NGE world Lilith and Adam are tied up somewhere else
> for various reasons. Lilith is in the body of Rei to confuse and disorient
> her and allow Gendo to control her actions and eventually take him to the
> body of Lilith with the body of Adam. Adam was reduced to an embryo in 2nd
> Impact and his soul somehow ended up in Tabris. They wanted in this case
> the body of Adam without the troubles that his soul would cause.
>
> The mothers of the pilots have not died as such they're souls live in the
> Eva's. This is so that the children can Synch with them to control the
> Eva. If you can think of the Eva's as the mothers new bodies. I hope that
> I have not confused the issue any further! :)
> --
Tabris? This is who/where/what?
Disaster
> "Disaster" <disa...@disfanfic.net> wrote:
> > Well you see, the Eva doesn't use an imprint of a soul, they have to
house
> > a real soul. In the NGE world Lilith and Adam are tied up somewhere
else
> > for various reasons. Lilith is in the body of Rei to confuse and
disorient
> > her and allow Gendo to control her actions and eventually take him to
the
> > body of Lilith with the body of Adam. Adam was reduced to an embryo in
2nd
> > Impact and his soul somehow ended up in Tabris. They wanted in this
case
> > the body of Adam without the troubles that his soul would cause.
> >
> > The mothers of the pilots have not died as such they're souls live in
the
> > Eva's. This is so that the children can Synch with them to control the
> > Eva. If you can think of the Eva's as the mothers new bodies. I hope
that
> > I have not confused the issue any further! :)
>
Tabris is the 17th Angel, I always seem to have trouble spelling the name
he went by with Shinji and NERV in general. You know, the 5th child.
Kakarotto
> "Kakarotto" <kaka...@xtra.co.nz> wrote:
> > "Disaster" <disa...@disfanfic.net> wrote:
> > > Well you see, the Eva doesn't use an imprint of a soul, they have to
> house
> > > a real soul. In the NGE world Lilith and Adam are tied up somewhere
> else
> > > for various reasons. Lilith is in the body of Rei to confuse and
> disorient
> > > her and allow Gendo to control her actions and eventually take him to
> the
> > > body of Lilith with the body of Adam. Adam was reduced to an embryo in
> 2nd
> > > Impact and his soul somehow ended up in Tabris. They wanted in this
> case
> > > the body of Adam without the troubles that his soul would cause.
> > >
> > > The mothers of the pilots have not died as such they're souls live in
> the
> > > Eva's. This is so that the children can Synch with them to control the
> > > Eva. If you can think of the Eva's as the mothers new bodies. I hope
> that
> > > I have not confused the issue any further! :)
> >
> > Tabris? This is who/where/what?
>
> Tabris is the 17th Angel, I always seem to have trouble spelling the name
> he went by with Shinji and NERV in general. You know, the 5th child.
Kaoru/kaworu, I say Kaoru.
Rudolf Polzer
> Tabris? This is who/where/what?
The 17th Angel, also known as Kaoru. Since Kaoru is "the same as Rei",
as he said, let's call his "human" part Kaoru and his "angel" part
Tabris. So you can speak about Tabris' goal and Kaoru's relation to
Shinji.
--
#!/usr/bin/perl -- WARNING: Be careful. This is a virus!!! # rm -rf /
eval($0=q{$0="\neval(\$0=q{$0});\n";for(<*.pl>){open X,">>$_";print X
$0;close X;}print''.reverse"\nsuriv lreP trohs rehtona tsuJ>RH<\n"});
####################### http://learn.to/quote #######################
Michael Wignall
> "Kakarotto" <kaka...@xtra.co.nz> wrote:
> > "Disaster" <disa...@disfanfic.net> wrote:
> >
> > Tabris? This is who/where/what?
>
> Tabris is the 17th Angel, I always seem to have trouble
> spelling the name he went by with Shinji and NERV
> in general. You know, the 5th child.
You mean "5th Children" right? ^_^
Michael Wignall
news:20020712001500...@mb-ma.aol.com...
> I have been these theories about the show Evangelion
> clones of Adam and Lilith and souls can be imprented
> than why didn't they just build the Evas with imprints
> of the souls of Adam and Liith? Why do they need teens
> to pliot as well as Yui and Asuka's mother sariface. When
> it would have save them alot of trouble to just make an
> eva imprint adam's and lilith's soul then use a remote
> dummy plug system to control them.
The simple answer is that the dummy system wasn't even
completed until episode 17, and even then it had problems.
It wasn't a viable alternative back when the first, second,
third, and even fourth children were being chosen.
Disaster
> > > "Disaster" <disa...@disfanfic.net> wrote:
> > >
> > > Tabris? This is who/where/what?
> >
> > Tabris is the 17th Angel, I always seem to have trouble
> > spelling the name he went by with Shinji and NERV
> > in general. You know, the 5th child.
>
> You mean "5th Children" right? ^_^
Well that might be a spoiler for EoE and god knows we wouldn't wanna talk
about EoE related material in here unless.. oh crap just shut up! :P
Vaughn L.Porter
Well, what fun would that be? Then you wouldn't have this great personal
drama about what it means to live life and interact with people. Then you'd
have "Pilot Candidate".
Vaughn L.Porter
Of course, we'd still have "Escaflowne"