Self-tuning piano from QRS
PLM
I noticed on pages 19-20 the following:
"QRS has acquired the exclusive rights to manufacture and sell a Self-
Tuning Piano System( which does not yet have a trade name). The company says
the system will be designed into the manufacture of a piano and will allow
the piano to maintain itself in tune electronically or to be tuned before
each use by simply turning on a switch. Except to say that it involves no
motors or moving parts, the company has not yet divulged how the system
accomplishes this task. The system was invented by Don A. Gilmore of Kansas
City, Missouri. QRS expects the system to be available in the fall of 2002."
I know this is the same Don Gilmore who occasionally posts on here under the
name EROMLIGNOD.
The last time I remember reading about this on RMMP, I thought the invention
was going to debut on a U.S.-made Story & Clark grand, or was I mistaken?
In any case, I can't wait to see this thing in action. Way to go, Don!
PLM
Mike Stevens
that attaches directly to the harp eliminating the pin block. Have any
attempts at this been made, and if so why did they fail? One interesting
advantage of a mechanical system would be the ability to change temper by
switch.
Mike S
PLM" <nos...@zarkware.com> wrote in message
news:alnopg$1rcrsh$1...@ID-125024.news.dfncis.de...
PLM
news:zPLf9.9379$yd6....@nwrddc02.gnilink.net...
> I'm surprised no one has ever com sold a piano with capstan/servo tuning
pin
> that attaches directly to the harp eliminating the pin block. Have any
> attempts at this been made, and if so why did they fail? One interesting
> advantage of a mechanical system would be the ability to change temper by
> switch.
Others on the group are more well-versed in Don Gilmore's technique, but as
I recall, it does *not* rely on anything as complex as a servo or other
mechanical linkage to change string tension.
I believe his system works on the principle that the pitch of a string can
be altered by changing the string's temperature.
PLM
EROMLIGNOD
Servomotor systems are VERY expensive since they require individual digital
control and would have to be heavily geared down to achieve the torque
required. The logistics of mounting and controling over two hundered
independent motors is mind-boggling and would cost a fortune. Yet it is the
first idea that comes to mind. There have already been a number of patents
issued over the years with similar cumbersome systems. For obvious reasons,
they never came to fruition.
My system involves temperature. Passing electrical current through strings
affects their temperature and thus their pitch.
We are still experimenting and building a prototype at present. We are
currently trying to reduce cost and power consumption. In very exhaustive
tests that I just completed last month we found, much to our surprise and
delight that even less power/temperature is required than we had originally
estimated: lukewarm and a couple of watts per string (at maximum flattening).
The system is also extremely accurate. It is based on an actual custom manual
tuning by a master technician for each and every piano it is installed in.
When it is electrically re-tuned it returns to this custom factory tuning.
Other tunings and temperaments have been considered, but that's on down the
road.
To clarify, the system will have a tuning range that covers a piano that has
properly stretched over a few years (to minimize power consumption). This
means that for brand-new pianos, the "stretch" that they exibit in the first
few years will exceed the tuning range after a year or two. So your tech will
still have to come "sharpen" it a few times when new. The original factory
tuning is still maintained; the strings are just brought back into range. The
main thrust of the idea is to have a piano that can me maintained in perfect
tune from day to day and week to week.
A piano spends most of its time out of tune. Even if you have it tuned twice a
year, it's still out of tune a week or two later. Now you simply touch it up
and away you go just as if the tech just left the house. As the strings
stretch over time, "sharpenings" will last longer and longer until you will
hardly need them at all.
QRS/Story&Clark plan to offer a certification program for RPT's to ensure that
they are trained to "sharpen" correctly as well as maintain and repair the
system.
Some setbacks (personal: heart attacks, terrorist attcks and such) have set the
project back a little, but we are still shooting for displaying it at the NAMM
show in January in Anaheim. Thanks for the interest!
Don
Rick Clark
Sorry to hear about the heart attack. I hope you are doing well now.
eroml...@aol.com (EROMLIGNOD) wrote:
> This
>means that for brand-new pianos, the "stretch" that they exibit in the first
>few years will exceed the tuning range after a year or two. So your tech will
>still have to come "sharpen" it a few times when new.
So you did get that part figured out. I was wondering. But I am
curious how are you dealing with the extra stress to the strings and
bridge pins when the power goes out, or it gets unplugged?
>A piano spends most of its time out of tune. Even if you have it tuned twice a
>year, it's still out of tune a week or two later. Now you simply touch it up
>and away you go just as if the tech just left the house.
Well, now wait a minute- let's be a little more accurate. A piano
which has a properly chosen Dampp-Chaser system can stay in tune
extremely well If the tuner is also good. I have pianos in my roster
getting tuned only once every 18 months, and even at that it's more of
a touch up than a tuning. But I will conceded that a piano without
humidity control may very well start drifting within a week or two.
I think one comparison that will beg to be made at some point, is what
is the price of your system compared to regular service by a piano
tuner + a piano humidity control system.
Regards,
Rick Clark
Mike Stevens
semi-tone need be restrung with single hitch pins? Seems this would make
adding system to stock pianos a problem.
Is this system turned on just for tuning or is it designed to run while
playing?
Regards,
Mike Stevens
"EROMLIGNOD" <eroml...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020911194221...@mb-fd.aol.com...
katzelmacher
EROMLIGNOD wrote:
>
> QRS/Story&Clark plan to offer a certification program for RPT's to ensure that
> they are trained to "sharpen" correctly as well as maintain and repair the
> system.
>
> Don
By RPTs you mean Piano Technican's Guild members? Aren't you inviting them to- in
effect- help "sight in" the rifle that's going to shoot them?
You may say that the technicians will still be needed for regulation and voicing,
but not that many owners seem to have this done until the work is long overdue.
Personally, I don't see where you're going to get much positive feedback from
piano techs. Or am I wrong about this?
Frank H. Weeden
>
> By RPTs you mean Piano Technican's Guild members? Aren't you inviting them to- in
> effect- help "sight in" the rifle that's going to shoot them?
Not if the gun is made with mother-of-pearl handles,
laser sights, and titanium/platinum action, and the
bullets are made of pure silver and 14K gold primers. ;-)
The idea is fascinating. I don't see any reason why it
wouldn't work, from a scientific/hypothetical standpoint,
but such a system seems like it would be prohibitively
expensive and clearly out of reach of the average pianist.
Unless you've got a jewel-encrusted Bosendorfer concert
grand. (Oh, Liberace; EAT YER HEART OUT, BABY!!!) <g>
-Frank
katzelmacher
want to save money on tunings (and had no success trying to tune it themselves). It
might be cheaper to just call in a tuner once a month .
As for the jewel-encrusted Bosendorfer, when Anna Nicole Smith accepts my proposal of
marriage. I may get one of those.
PLM
Do you know if QRS will license the technology to other makers? No offense,
but I want the system installed in a piano good enough that an "actual
custom manual tuning by a master technician" will actually make a
difference. In a Story & Clark, who really cares? Wouldn't an ordinary
tuning by an average piano tech. be indistinguishable from a spectacular
tuning in such a mundane instrument?
I want one of these systems in my Steinway B or a nice Mason & Hamlin.
BTW, would the system, once commercialized, even be retrofittable into an
existing grand?
Thanks for any info. Sorry to hear about the heart attack - I hope all is
well now. Good luck with this terrific and long-overdue technology. I
think it's high time pianists get to play instruments that are well-tuned as
frequently as other instrumentalists.
As for Rick's comments on the Dampp-Chaser, I really don't want to get into
a religious war here, but I have a system in my Steinway B that I exchanged
postings with Rick on about a year ago. It's properly installed and
functioning correctly, and I've even sought (and received and followed)
advice directly from Dampp-Chaser on it. While it keeps the piano roughly
in tune between tunings (which I have done about every 3 months), I can
certainly tell the difference a week or two after the tuner leaves. I
believe the degree to which the Dampp-Chaser is deemed by the musician to be
successful is a complex formula which involves the instrument, the tuner,
the environment and the musician's ears and tolerance for slightly
out-of-tune instruments. Unfortunately for me, I usually spend about half
of the time (even with quarterly tunings by a very fine RPT) feeling pretty
uncomfortable with the tuning-state of my Steinway.
PLM
"EROMLIGNOD" <eroml...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020911194221...@mb-fd.aol.com...
EROMLIGNOD
designers (I'm only 38). He is fine and recovering though. Thanks for the
concern.
Don
EROMLIGNOD
This is a common question. It does not matter whether the strings are singly
strung or not. The harp is the common ground. So it does not matter if the
strings are single, pairs, or welded together as triples at one end. The hitch
pin end is always at the ground potential and the tuning pin end always
controls the current through the string. Think about the neutral wire in your
house wiring--all of your lights are connected to it, but your switches all
control the connection to the "hot" wire.
Don
Frank H. Weeden
>
> I see your point Frank. They won't be able to market it to most of the people who just
> want to save money on tunings (and had no success trying to tune it themselves). It
> might be cheaper to just call in a tuner once a month .
You know, there may still be a niche for this kind of
system, though. I couldn't afford to call my tuner in every
month, as much as I think he's a fine individual. <g> I've
had it recommended to have my piano tuned at least every
six months, and when I get a new piano, I will most likely
call my tuner every three months. Getting it tuned once per
quarter is probably something that most pianists could afford
if they plan their finances accordingly.
> As for the jewel-encrusted Bosendorfer, when Anna Nicole Smith accepts my proposal of
> marriage. I may get one of those.
<G> When that happens, you will definitely have to post some
photos. (No, not photos of the piano!) ;)
Cheers,
-Frank
eromlignod
other mechanisms the system is really quite simple. The largest costs
will be the magnetic pickups and the power supply.
We are currently working to reduce the cost as much as possible
without sacrificing utility or accuracy. Don't quote me on this, but
I'll go way out on a limb and say it will probably add about a grand
(no pun intended) to the price of the piano. Not too bad considering
the cost of pianos. Just think of it as adding the air-conditioning
option to a new car.
Don
katzelmacher <yo...@fly.com> wrote in message news:<3D800610...@fly.com>...
Frank H. Weeden
>
> Actually the system should be quite affordable. Without motors or
> other mechanisms the system is really quite simple. The largest costs
> will be the magnetic pickups and the power supply.
>
> We are currently working to reduce the cost as much as possible
> without sacrificing utility or accuracy. Don't quote me on this, but
> I'll go way out on a limb and say it will probably add about a grand
> (no pun intended) to the price of the piano. Not too bad considering
> the cost of pianos. Just think of it as adding the air-conditioning
> option to a new car.
>
> Don
You may be right, Don. I wish you the best in your endeavor.
I admire the spirit of innovation.
Cheers,
-Frank
eromlignod
The system, as it is currently designed, must be installed into a new
piano. The reason for this is that the string rest (the metal bar
under the strings near the tuning pins) must be replaced with an
insulating one so that the strings don't short together electrically.
The agraffes are also replaced and the capo bar is insulated. This
could theoretically be retrofitted to an existing piano, but would
require re-stringing, which is a pretty time-consuming task.
I have granted QRS the right to sub-license the technology to other
piano manufacturers and they have connections with them all (since
they install their Pianomation system into all brands). For now the
system will only be available in the S&C Prelude grand.
Thank you for your kind words.
Don
"PLM" <nos...@zarkware.com> wrote in message news:<alp1em$1sj5fd$1...@ID-125024.news.dfncis.de>...
Gary Weder
How will your system effect bass strings ? Won't the temperature rise
cause the premature loosening of the copper windings resulting in dead bass
strings? I don't know how to ask this scientifically but won't the core
steel string and the copper wrapping heat up at different temperatures?
Gary.
EROMLIGNOD
The temperatures we are talking about are less than about 95 F (35 C) which is
just warm to the touch (your hand is 98.6 F). I don't think this is enough to
worry about.
The copper windings do affect the heat dissipation, but not the tuning effect.
Only the elongation of the steel core affects the pitch. The actual
expansion/contraction is extremely small since were talking about a few cents.
Since the copper conducts the heat away from the core and has a larger surface
area, the largest copper-wound strings take more power. Luckily they only
account for about 10% of the strings in the piano (the lowest 25 strings or
so).
This brings up an interesting phenomenon that I discovered. I assumed that the
copper windings would effectively "short out" the steel string by conducting
all the electrical current around the steel (path of least resistance) and
hindering the warming process. I even had Mapes Piano String Co. make a
special set of strings where they coated the core with clear lacquer before
winding the copper. When testing, I inadvertently picked up a non-coated
string and found that it performed just as well as the coated ones. I still
cannot fully explain this phenomenon. I have even dicussed it in several
physics and electical engineering newsgroups and everyone is baffled. Anyway,
the upshot is that we can use ordinary piano strings. I got lucky on that one.
Don
Al Stevens
"eromlignod" <eroml...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:5778ec55.02091...@posting.google.com...
> Actually the system should be quite affordable. Without motors or
> other mechanisms the system is really quite simple. The largest costs
> will be the magnetic pickups and the power supply.
>
Are these audio pickups similar to those on an electric guitar? During the
automatic retuning, does someone strike each key in a prescribed sequence so
the pickups can pass the pitch into a processor that varies the current? Are
there 88 pickups? Do harmonics present a problem? Is there a microprocessor
with memory that stores the current for each string? Questions, questions.
EROMLIGNOD
Yes, yes and yes. Your a good guesser! There are actually 219 coils (one for
every string, not just note), which are consolidated into 88 "group" coils.
Each group has three independent pickup coils bunched together and then wrapped
with a heavier-gauge magnet wire around all three. This exterior coil is the
"sustaining" coil. If you provide a drive signal to this outer coil it will
actually sustain the string magnetically and indefinitely. This way you do not
have to play each note--they "magically" all sustain at once and then tune
themselves.
The pickup coils are intentionally crappy. A good guitar pickup is specially
designed to be sure and pick up all the delicate overtones of the vibrating
strings. Since I don't really care what the signal sounds like, I design the
pickups very crudely so that I get almost a perfect fundamental sine wave.
This makes the coils cheap and provides a "pre-filtered" signal to work with.
I simply over-amplify it until the tops and bottoms of the wave are "clipped"
off and then convert it to a square wave (at the fundamental frequency) with a
Schmitt trigger. Now I just compare the period of the wave to a super-accurate
crystal high-frequency oscillator (10 MHz; $1.29 at Radio Shack) and determine
its exact frequency.
The temperature of the strings is controlled with pulse-width modulation.
Don't let that term scare you. It's simply turning a regulated voltage on and
off to the string on a "duty cycle". In other words, if you turn the string
"on" for 50% of the time and "off" 50% of the time the string gets warmer than
if you turn it on for 40% and off 60%. This percentage is what's stored in
memory.
Hope this helps.
Don
pTooner
current is responsible for it's riding the steel inner string instead of
taking the DC route through the copper. OTOH, even if it took the copper
route, it would go through a small amount of the steel section at each end
which would be heated and then conduct the heat back up the homogenous
material/(core). That's my story and I'm sticking to it. ;-)
Gerry
"EROMLIGNOD" <eroml...@aol.com> wrote in message
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