Age of Steam - pedantic rules question
Nick Wedd
"A Track tile or group of Track tiles that does not connect a City or
Town to another City or Town is an Unfinished Track Section."
"A player may replace a Track tile at the end of an Unfinished Track
Section with a different Track tile if they have ownership of the track
or if it is unowned."
Note that "end" is undefined, although its meaning appears to be clear.
Now, suppose I have a couple of tracks running to Kansas City, and I am
enjoying shipping purple cubies there. I suspect that a nasty-minded
person intends building track to Duluth, the only other place that uses
purple cubies, at least until some urbanisation gets done. So on my
next track-build, I use two tight curves to connect Duluth to Duluth.
This does not connect a City or Town to another City or Town, and
therefore is an Unfinished Track Section. I put my ownership marker on
it.
On my next track build, I have to remove my ownership marker from this
Unfinished Track Section.
Then someone who is keen to connect to Duluth cites the second of the
rules quoted above. This rules implies that the Duluth-Duluth track has
at least one end. A symmetry argument suggests that if one of its ends
is an "end" in the sense of this rule, then they both are. So, he
chooses either of the tiles forming this track, and redirects it.
I think I have interpreted the rules correctly so far.
But now, suppose I had tried to block off Duluth with a loop of track
connecting it to itself and using not two Track tiles, but three (or
more). Which of these Track tiles are "ends" and can be redirected?
One view is that the meaning of "end" is obvious. Only the two ends of
the loop are ends.
A second view attempts to extend the symmetry argument mentioned above,
and claims that all the tiles on the loop are ends.
A third view is that "end" refers to the Track tile (or tiles) most
remote from the City or Town to which the track segment is connected. On
this view, the ends of this track are not ends, only the middle is.
Nick
--
Nick Wedd ni...@maproom.co.uk
RRI1
Now doing this is rather dubious. If you REALLY want to screw
someone, would you build both sections to Duluth, but not connect
them together. Instead, extend each of them one more hex each turn to
retain ownership of the lines. (I am NOT saying this a good tactic, but it
would keep Duluth from being connected.)
>One view is that the meaning of "end" is obvious. Only the two ends of
>the loop are ends.
>
>A second view attempts to extend the symmetry argument mentioned
>above, and claims that all the tiles on the loop are ends.
>
>A third view is that "end" refers to the Track tile (or tiles) most
>remote from the City or Town to which the track segment is connected. >On this
view, the ends of this track are not ends, only the middle is.
I would suggest the real answer is: Martin Wallce forgot to put a rule in
that says "Track may not built that directly connects from a city back to
itself." to handle silly rules lawyering like this. ;-)
Richard Irving rr...@aol.com
Made with recycled electrons!
Robert Rossney
news:20040118125741...@mb-m17.aol.com...
: I would suggest the real answer is: Martin Wallce forgot to put a rule in
: that says "Track may not built that directly connects from a city back to
: itself." to handle silly rules lawyering like this. ;-)
Even more sensibly, removing the word "another" from the definition of
Unfinished Track Section, so that a track section that connects a city with
itself is considered completed, and thus cannot be redirected.
Bob Rossney
r...@well.com
Sebastian Bleasdale
If only we had an Age of Steam expert on hand to resolve this problem.
--
Sebastian Have you ever considered
fighting fire with water?
John Bohrer
Please have a look at page 3, the section header:
Completed Railroad Links and Unfinished Track Sections
and the following text:
A group of Track tiles that connects a City or Town to another City or
Town comprises a Completed Railroad Link. A Track tile or group of
Track tiles that does not connect a City or Town to another City or
Town is an Unfinished Track Section.
I am afraid that I don't see the problem; the German rules are exactly
the same (although in German) and I have had no questions from those
gamers. Must be a cultural thing.
Sigh. Our Bill of Rights is only a few hundred words long, yet
Americans have been arguing about it for over two hundred years, with
no end in sight. Another classic game, 1830, has English speaking
factions continually arguing about aspects of track tile placement.
Don Greenwood is lucky that AH went under, else he would still be
answering questions! Perhaps the prospect of having to deal with
'rules lawyers' is the reason why Martin wanted me to write the rules.
(Smart move, Martin!)
Regards, Gentlemen.
John Bohrer
Winsome Games
Heinz Kiosk
news:4bde1035.04011...@posting.google.com...
I think their problem might be that once the line has got back to the city
it started from you cannot tell which end of it was built first by
inspection of the board. So you cannot tell which end is the "free" end.
However your other comments have touched a nerve. I remember a day spent
playtesting 1825(?) with Francis Tresham a few years ago. We spent most of
the day debating the exact wording of the tile laying rule. Our version of
it got longer and longer and more and more convoluted in a vain attempt to
cover every conceivable situation. It felt a bit like Godel's theorem
because every attempt to cover up a loophole opened up one or more new
loopholes. I hope our rule never saw the light of day.
Tom
Joshua Adelson
"John Bohrer" wrote
> Regards, Gentlemen.
>
> John Bohrer
> Winsome Games
Hmm, that is entirely too reminiscent of something a Gabber Robot might
say.... Somebody set us up the bomb! All your rules are belong to us.
Nick Wedd
Bohrer <win...@fyi.net> writes
>sbl...@chiark.greenend.org.uk (Sebastian Bleasdale) wrote in message
>news:<slrnc0n477...@chiark.greenend.org.uk>...
>> Robert Rossney wrote:
>> >"RRI1" <rr...@aol.com> wrote in message
>> >news:20040118125741...@mb-m17.aol.com...
>> >
>> >: I would suggest the real answer is: Martin Wallce forgot to put a rule in
>> >: that says "Track may not built that directly connects from a city back to
>> >: itself." to handle silly rules lawyering like this. ;-)
>> >
>> >Even more sensibly, removing the word "another" from the definition of
>> >Unfinished Track Section, so that a track section that connects a city with
>> >itself is considered completed, and thus cannot be redirected.
>>
>> If only we had an Age of Steam expert on hand to resolve this problem.
>
>Please have a look at page 3, the section header:
>Completed Railroad Links and Unfinished Track Sections
>
>and the following text:
>A group of Track tiles that connects a City or Town to another City or
>Town comprises a Completed Railroad Link. A Track tile or group of
>Track tiles that does not connect a City or Town to another City or
>Town is an Unfinished Track Section.
>
>I am afraid that I don't see the problem; the German rules are exactly
>the same (although in German) and I have had no questions from those
>gamers. Must be a cultural thing.
So what's the answer? Which tiles of such an Unfinished Track Section
can be redirected?
>Sigh. Our Bill of Rights is only a few hundred words long, yet
>Americans have been arguing about it for over two hundred years, with
>no end in sight. Another classic game, 1830, has English speaking
>factions continually arguing about aspects of track tile placement.
>Don Greenwood is lucky that AH went under, else he would still be
>answering questions! Perhaps the prospect of having to deal with
>'rules lawyers' is the reason why Martin wanted me to write the rules.
>(Smart move, Martin!)
>
>Regards, Gentlemen.
>
>John Bohrer
>Winsome Games
--
Nick Wedd ni...@maproom.co.uk
Joshua Adelson
> So what's the answer? Which tiles of such an Unfinished Track Section
> can be redirected?
Please have a look at page 5, the section header: Redirection, and the
following text:
A player may replace track tile at the end of an unfinishished track section
if they have ownership of the track or it is unowned.
It strikes me that people are being intentionally obtuse regarding the
definition of 'end' in the above text. Obviously the 'end' in question is
not the opposite of 'start' as you coolies would all seem to suggest. (This
explains the need for the Slim Pickens character in Blazing Saddles.) It is
clearly the opposite of 'middle'. Any track tile adjacent to the city/town
in question in this annoying little closed loop of a track section shall be
considered an end, and any section which does not shall henceforth be known
as a 'don't screw with me, I'm in the middle of an unfinished track
section.' As soon as somebody redirects one of the two possible 'ends' of
this configuration, the tile that they place becomes the single 'end'
available for redirection in a subsequent turn. My expertise and authority
in this matter shall not be questioned.
Cats
John Bohrer
Certainly not be me!
Joshua Adelson
"John Bohrer" wrote in message
> Certainly not be me!
Shiver me timbers, now the thread is either pirate-based or transpiring on
Bizarro Planet....
Or is that some sort of spooky new sentence construction they're teaching
our kids now! I must get to the bottom of this....
John Bohrer
> >
> >I am afraid that I don't see the problem; the German rules are exactly
> >the same (although in German) and I have had no questions from those
> >gamers. Must be a cultural thing.
>
> So what's the answer? Which tiles of such an Unfinished Track Section
> can be redirected?
The end tile, which is not connected to a City or Town. Having just
returned from Nuremberg, Germany where I discussed this with Martin,
we have decided to put the sentance "Track can not be directly connected
back to the originating City or Town" in the 2nd edition English Language
rules. The Germans already understand this, I am told, due to the banana
principle they are taught as children:
"Why is a banana curved?"
"If it was straight, it wouldn't be a banana!"
Regards, Gentlemen,
John Bohrer
Winsome Games
Kevin J. Maroney
>The end tile, which is not connected to a City or Town. Having just
>returned from Nuremberg, Germany where I discussed this with Martin,
>we have decided to put the sentance "Track can not be directly connected
>back to the originating City or Town" in the 2nd edition English Language
>rules.
This implies that the game is going back into print, which is terrific
news.
How can we early adopters get a copy of the corrected rulebook?
--
Kevin J. Maroney | k...@panix.com
Games are my entire waking life.
<http://www.panix.com/~kjm/games-for-sale.html> updated 23 December 2003
Nick Wedd
Bohrer <win...@fyi.net> writes
Many thanks for this clear answer.
John Bohrer
> On 11 Feb 2004 03:09:49 -0800, win...@fyi.net (John Bohrer) wrote:
> >The end tile, which is not connected to a City or Town. Having just
> >returned from Nuremberg, Germany where I discussed this with Martin,
> >we have decided to put the sentance "Track can not be directly connected
> >back to the originating City or Town" in the 2nd edition English Language
> >rules.
>
> This implies that the game is going back into print, which is terrific
> news.
>
> How can we early adopters get a copy of the corrected rulebook?
Hmmm, perhaps a trade in program? I don't know, the changes are very
few, namely the above sentance in english, changing the "Move Goods"
example so that the colors match the board (originally the red cities
were blue, the blue cities were red, Martin swapped them at the last
minute for some reason), perhaps an improvement in the income reduction
section text (also changed at the last minute). We will return to the
original Winsome income chart, where income wraps at 49, not 47, so that
incomes above 50 can be easily shown. And Detroit will again be a '3'!
Aside from re-correcting these last minute edits, the element that I really
want is a track building cost chart on the bottom of the last page where
the track tiles are shown. When I wrote the rules, that was the one thing
I regret not having included for easy reference. Hey, hindsight is 20-20
and if you know Warfrog, everything is a last minute rush.
For the 'early adopters' I shall suggest a minor trade in program, where
they send in their Income Chart and we send them the original 'wrapping'
income chart and proper errata for the first edition Warfrog AoS rules.
I will let you know what actually happens later, as I don't expect another
trip to Europe until May, for the Age of Steam weekend I am thinking of
having in Essen at Winsome's de facto German headquarters, the Jung.
A world championship for Age of Steam, as has been requested.
Yes, Kevin, Age of Steam is sold out, the first Warfrog game with the
nifty bits to do so.
Now, if you guys would just buy more Way Out West, Empires of the
Ancient World and Liberte games, poor Jim Hamilton wouldn't lose so
much money paying the german producers to make these games with nice
bits for you all!
John Bohrer
John Bohrer
My apologies for any difficulty you experienced and for the lateness of
my reply. As Martin and I attend Nuremberg together, I thought it better
to wait and discuss it with him while we were drinking slivowitz in a dark
bar late at night, jetlagged.
John
David Goldfarb
John Bohrer <win...@fyi.net> wrote:
>Kevin J. Maroney <k...@panix.com> wrote in message news:<tsrk20h57944ujlfr...@4ax.com>...
>
>Hmmm, perhaps a trade in program? I don't know, the changes are very
>few, namely the above sentance in english, changing the "Move Goods"
>example so that the colors match the board (originally the red cities
>were blue, the blue cities were red, Martin swapped them at the last
>minute for some reason), perhaps an improvement in the income reduction
>section text (also changed at the last minute).
Will you fix the spelling of "Cincinnati" in the diagrams?
--
David Goldfarb <*>|"Ah, Amerikanski humor. Is most funny.
gold...@ocf.berkeley.edu |
gold...@csua.berkeley.edu | We bomb now."
| -- J. Michael Straczynski
John Bohrer
> In article <4bde1035.04021...@posting.google.com>,
> John Bohrer <win...@fyi.net> wrote:
> >Kevin J. Maroney <k...@panix.com> wrote in message news:<tsrk20h57944ujlfr...@4ax.com>...
> >> How can we early adopters get a copy of the corrected rulebook?
> >
> >Hmmm, perhaps a trade in program? I don't know, the changes are very
> >few, namely the above sentance in english, changing the "Move Goods"
> >example so that the colors match the board (originally the red cities
> >were blue, the blue cities were red, Martin swapped them at the last
> >minute for some reason), perhaps an improvement in the income reduction
> >section text (also changed at the last minute).
>
> Will you fix the spelling of "Cincinnati" in the diagrams?
As a professed cartographer, I am aghast. I can promise nothing as we
only license AoS to Warfrog, but I shall exert influence, sir, and
immediately offer my apologies as someone who sees the last h lost in
Winsome's city's name. But I see no mistake on the map, is there a
misspelling somewhere in the rules?
John Bohrer
Pittsburgh
mark coomey
> Now, if you guys would just buy more Way Out West, Empires of the
> Ancient World and Liberte games, poor Jim Hamilton wouldn't lose so
> much money paying the german producers to make these games with nice
> bits for you all!
So far I've bought WOW, Liberte, Age of Steam & Expansion #1 and Potr.
I think you do alright down this corner of the globe!!
-wiz
ps. fire you're designer at warfrog and hire me!
>
> John Bohrer
David Goldfarb
John Bohrer <win...@fyi.net> wrote:
>gold...@OCF.Berkeley.EDU (David Goldfarb) wrote in message news:<c0food$2rfm$1...@agate.berkeley.edu>...
>
>As a professed cartographer, I am aghast. I can promise nothing as we
>only license AoS to Warfrog, but I shall exert influence, sir, and
>immediately offer my apologies as someone who sees the last h lost in
>Winsome's city's name. But I see no mistake on the map, is there a
>misspelling somewhere in the rules?
There's no problem with the actual board, to be sure. In the rules,
there are ten diagrams illustrating various aspects of play -- tile
laying, tile replacement, urbanization, goods movement. The diagrams
show Evansville, Indianapolis, Cincinnati, and Lexington. They are
repeated in the German rules. And in all twenty, "Cincinnati" is
spelled with an extra t -- "Cincinnatti".
--
David Goldfarb <*>|"Actually, I just enjoy bursting into flames...
gold...@ocf.berkeley.edu | You should try it sometime...relieves a lot
gold...@csua.berkeley.edu | of stress."
| -- Jen Hill on rec.arts.tv.mst3k
John Bohrer
> In article <4bde1035.04021...@posting.google.com>,
> John Bohrer <win...@fyi.net> wrote:
> >gold...@OCF.Berkeley.EDU (David Goldfarb) wrote in message news:<c0food$2rfm$1...@agate.berkeley.edu>...
> >> Will you fix the spelling of "Cincinnati" in the diagrams?
> >
> >As a professed cartographer, I am aghast. I can promise nothing as we
> >only license AoS to Warfrog, but I shall exert influence, sir, and
> >immediately offer my apologies as someone who sees the last h lost in
> >Winsome's city's name. But I see no mistake on the map, is there a
> >misspelling somewhere in the rules?
>
> There's no problem with the actual board, to be sure. In the rules,
> there are ten diagrams illustrating various aspects of play -- tile
> laying, tile replacement, urbanization, goods movement. The diagrams
> show Evansville, Indianapolis, Cincinnati, and Lexington. They are
> repeated in the German rules. And in all twenty, "Cincinnati" is
> spelled with an extra t -- "Cincinnatti".
Ouch. My fault entirely, sorry about that. We will get that fixed up
for you all.
John
John Bohrer
Martin Wallace owns Warfrog, all those great games are the result
of his talent for designing boardgames. Sorry, Mark!
John Bohrer
If you have a train / railroad game, we would appreciate seeing it.
David Goldfarb
>> in all twenty, "Cincinnati" is
>> spelled with an extra t -- "Cincinnatti".
>
>Ouch. My fault entirely, sorry about that. We will get that fixed up
>for you all.
My inner proofreader thanks you. :-)
--
David Goldfarb <*>|
gold...@ocf.berkeley.edu | Private .sig -- please do not read.
gold...@csua.berkeley.edu |
Rick Jones
> If you have a train / railroad game, we would appreciate seeing it.
Do you still have the numbered stickers for fixing the misprint on
the AoS main board?
--
Rick Jones
Remove the Extra Dot to e-mail me
"When I'm good I'm very, very good, but when I'm bad I'm
better." -Mae West
John Bohrer
> John Bohrer wrote:
>
> > If you have a train / railroad game, we would appreciate seeing it.
>
> Do you still have the numbered stickers for fixing the misprint on
> the AoS main board?
Yep, send your snail mail address by email to win...@fyi.net and
we shall get one off to you. I have been somewhat overloaded with
both game and engineering work, so the last batch that I sent off
yesterday covered requests for the last two months. Sorry about
the delay there, folks. Preparing this year's new games before
Nuremberg really takes it out of you, and I am still jet-lagged,
posting stuff at 6am!
John Bohrer
Winsome Games
http://www.fyi.net/~winsome