SCE and Darkness within
vermillian
should get around Darkness Within.
SCE ends combat during strike resolution. It does this before any
other strike during strike resolution, even before first strike,
etc... Well, hey. Lets just look at the definition on the online
ruling.
Taken from 6.4.5
"Combat Ends: This effect ends combat immediately. This type of strike
is always the first to resolve, even before a strike done with first
strike, and ends combat before other strikes can be resolved or any
damage dealt. Combat ends is effective at any range. Combat ends is
not affected by a dodge, since dodge only cancels effects that are
directed at the dodging minion."
Ok. The first sentence. Just tells us what it does. The second
sentence is long, lets break it up.
"this type of strike is always the first to resolve"
If we'd leave it at that we'd be fine SCE would beat the darkness
w/in. You could argue that its the first to resolve in the realm of
strikes. Other things that might happen during strike resolution phase
could beat it, as long as it wasn't a strike.
"even before a strike done with first strike, and ends combat before
other strikes are resolved or any damage dealt."
Ok... this just justifies my case, implying that SCE refers to
resolving first amognst
1.) strikes
2.) Damage dealt (not neccesarily from strikes)
So this rules out carrion crows. No problem. But it in no way says
that it would end combat before other effects that might happen during
strike resolution. Like Rotshit, or even Darkness Within. This is my
key point of the arguement.
The rest of the text for SCE is omitted, as it isn't relevent to the
card at hand (that being Darkness Within).
However, according the LSJ on 01/23/01 on a post entitled "rules Q:
Darkness Within" LSJ states
"S:CE cuts combat off before any of the "during strike
resolution" effects take place (including regular
strike resolution)."
Which I can't see, from the rules in the book online, how it could get
a special pre-strike resolution phase to beat effects, other than
strikes, that happen during strike resolution.
So am I enterpretting the online rules incorrectly, or is there just a
precedent for this sort of thing, and where (what post) was it first
established that SCE gets its own little pre-strike resolution phase
to end combat in.
~SV
LSJ
>
> Going through the typical reasoning I still see NO reason why SCE
> should get around Darkness Within.
It ends combat DW's effect occurs.
> SCE ends combat during strike resolution. It does this before any
> other strike during strike resolution, even before first strike,
> etc... Well, hey. Lets just look at the definition on the online
> ruling.
Right. DW's effect is applied during normal strike resolution. If
combat ends before that (First Strike sending someone to torpor,
S:CE, etc.), then DW doesn't happen.
[...]
> So this rules out carrion crows. No problem. But it in no way says
> that it would end combat before other effects that might happen during
> strike resolution. Like [Rotchreck], or even Darkness Within. This is my
> key point of the arguement.
Rotschreck isn't played during strike resolution.
DW's effect has the same timiing window as Carrion Crows.
> The rest of the text for SCE is omitted, as it isn't relevent to the
> card at hand (that being Darkness Within).
>
> However, according the LSJ on 01/23/01 on a post entitled "rules Q:
> Darkness Within" LSJ states
>
> "S:CE cuts combat off before any of the "during strike
> resolution" effects take place (including regular
> strike resolution)."
>
> Which I can't see, from the rules in the book online, how it could get
> a special pre-strike resolution phase to beat effects, other than
> strikes, that happen during strike resolution.
It occurs before First Strike and before normal strike resolution.
Since DW occurs during normal strike resolution, S:CE preempts it.
--
LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules:
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/
vermillian
> vermillian wrote:
>
> > So this rules out carrion crows. No problem. But it in no way says
> > that it would end combat before other effects that might happen during
> > strike resolution. Like [Rotchreck], or even Darkness Within. This is my
> > key point of the arguement.
>
> Rotschreck isn't played during strike resolution.
So ignore Rotshit for now...
> DW's effect has the same timiing window as Carrion Crows.
But Carrion crows is damage being dealt, hence SCE resolves before it.
As DW isn't a strike, and it isn't damage being dealt. Then by the
cases of SCE, DW isn't a strike, it isn't damage being dealt... then
it can happen before (or at the same time as) SCE, right? See below
for more detail...
> > "S:CE cuts combat off before any of the "during strike
> > resolution" effects take place (including regular
> > strike resolution)."
> >
> > Which I can't see, from the rules in the book online, how it could get
> > a special pre-strike resolution phase to beat effects, other than
> > strikes, that happen during strike resolution.
>
> It occurs before First Strike and before normal strike resolution.
> Since DW occurs during normal strike resolution, S:CE preempts it.
I suppose this is my problem... I had no idea there was a 'normal'
strike resolution and that Darkness within was to happen during that
time. So is strike resolution broken up like this?
Strike Resolution
1.) Pre-emptive strike resolution
2.) First strike
3.) Normal strike resolution
In which case, DW needs to be explained that it happens during NORMAL
strike resolution, not just anytime during strike resolution. Now if
it goes like this.
Pre-emptive strike resolution
Strike Reolution
1.) First Strike
2.) Others...
Then Pre-emptive strike resolution is obviously not a part of Strike
Resolution, hence, DW would not take effect.
Is there a site where I can go that explains, in detail, the exact
steps of combat, including this SCE strike resolution phase, which
apparantly, isn't a part of NORMAL strike resolution phase? Or is this
actually in the rule book... If so please site reference to where the
steps of combat are explained in this amount of detail.
~SV
LSJ
> > DW's effect has the same timiing window as Carrion Crows.
>
> But Carrion crows is damage being dealt, hence SCE resolves before it.
No. Carrion Crows is "during strike resolution", hence SCE resolves
before it.
> As DW isn't a strike, and it isn't damage being dealt. Then by the
> cases of SCE, DW isn't a strike, it isn't damage being dealt... then
> it can happen before (or at the same time as) SCE, right? See below
> for more detail...
No. It is a "during strike resolution" effect (meaning "normal"
strike resolution, since it doesn't specify otherwise).
> > It occurs before First Strike and before normal strike resolution.
> > Since DW occurs during normal strike resolution, S:CE preempts it.
>
> I suppose this is my problem... I had no idea there was a 'normal'
> strike resolution and that Darkness within was to happen during that
> time. So is strike resolution broken up like this?
"Normal" is just the term applied to non-special (non-FS, non-Dodge,
non-SCE) strike resolution.
> Strike Resolution
> 1.) Pre-emptive strike resolution
> 2.) First strike
> 3.) Normal strike resolution
Strike resolution:
1. S:CE
2. Dodge
3. First Strike
4. others (normal)
> In which case, DW needs to be explained that it happens during NORMAL
> strike resolution, not just anytime during strike resolution. Now if
> it goes like this.
It occurs "as normal" becuase it doesn't have text to indicate
otherwise. It doesn't need text to affirm the default. It would
need text to achieve something other than the default.
> Pre-emptive strike resolution
> Strike Reolution
> 1.) First Strike
> 2.) Others...
>
> Then Pre-emptive strike resolution is obviously not a part of Strike
> Resolution, hence, DW would not take effect.
OK.
> Is there a site where I can go that explains, in detail, the exact
> steps of combat, including this SCE strike resolution phase, which
> apparantly, isn't a part of NORMAL strike resolution phase? Or is this
> actually in the rule book... If so please site reference to where the
> steps of combat are explained in this amount of detail.
The rules for S:CE indicate that it occurs before First Strike and
that FS occurs before a "normal" strike. [6.4.5]
--
LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar:
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/
Joshua Duffin
> vermillian wrote:
[re Darkness Within]
> > As DW isn't a strike, and it isn't damage being dealt. Then by the
> > cases of SCE, DW isn't a strike, it isn't damage being dealt... then
> > it can happen before (or at the same time as) SCE, right? See below
> > for more detail...
>
> No. It is a "during strike resolution" effect (meaning "normal"
> strike resolution, since it doesn't specify otherwise).
It seems to me that it might be more consistent and intuitive
to have non-strike "during strike resolution" effects happen
in sequenced order. Normally the only thing that's simultaneous
in combat is "the effects of strikes from both minions"; if
acting and blocking-minion Weather Controls aren't resolved
simultaneously, why should "during strike resolution" non-strike
effects be? (Because it's always been that way is the obvious
answer, but I'm not sure it's sufficient since it's not spelled
out in the rules or in card text.)
For example, Wolf Companion's damage is not an effect of a strike.
The fact that it happens "during strike resolution" doesn't seem
like enough data to be able to logically conclude that its damage
must be resolved simultaneously with "normal strike damage". Note
that the wording has always been "during strike resolution" not
"during damage resolution". Seems to me like it'd make more sense
for Wolf Companion's damage to be applied separately from (and
presumably before) the "normal strikes damage resolution" step.
Also see, under "Resolve Strike" at [6.4.3]: "When a minion or
retainer takes damage (either from a strike or from other means),
he must burn blood or lose life, as appropriate. [...] This is
true at any point during combat, not just during strike resolution."
Not conclusive of course, since this damage/other effects *are*
during strike resolution, but it's also not clear from cardtext
or rules that Strike: Combat Ends should preempt other strike
resolution effects.
Could the Rules Team take this under consideration for review?
Josh
darkness without, darkness within
LSJ
>
> "LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message
> news:3CCEA6C5...@white-wolf.com...
> > vermillian wrote:
>
> [re Darkness Within]
>
> > > As DW isn't a strike, and it isn't damage being dealt. Then by the
> > > cases of SCE, DW isn't a strike, it isn't damage being dealt... then
> > > it can happen before (or at the same time as) SCE, right? See below
> > > for more detail...
> >
> > No. It is a "during strike resolution" effect (meaning "normal"
> > strike resolution, since it doesn't specify otherwise).
>
> It seems to me that it might be more consistent and intuitive
> to have non-strike "during strike resolution" effects happen
> in sequenced order.
Everything that happens "during strike resolution" happens
simultaneously (during the "normal" strike resolution).
This is how all of the "during strike resolution" cards have
been designed to work.
Changing this now would require a long study of the effects
of doing so (i.e., powering up retainers that deal damage in
that separate damage prevention effects will now be needed
to handle each). Such study would be done if there were a problem
with the current arrangement. As there is no problem with the
current arrangement, the study will have very low priority
(until such problem can be shown).
> Normally the only thing that's simultaneous
> in combat is "the effects of strikes from both minions"; if
... and all other "during strike resolution" effects.
> acting and blocking-minion Weather Controls aren't resolved
> simultaneously, why should "during strike resolution" non-strike
> effects be? (Because it's always been that way is the obvious
> answer, but I'm not sure it's sufficient since it's not spelled
> out in the rules or in card text.)
Because strike resolution effects are handled simulatenously.
> For example, Wolf Companion's damage is not an effect of a strike.
> The fact that it happens "during strike resolution" doesn't seem
> like enough data to be able to logically conclude that its damage
> must be resolved simultaneously with "normal strike damage". Note
> that the wording has always been "during strike resolution" not
> "during damage resolution". Seems to me like it'd make more sense
> for Wolf Companion's damage to be applied separately from (and
> presumably before) the "normal strikes damage resolution" step.
Card text of the original Wolf Companion didn't provide enough
data to conclude that it didn't gain First Strike or the additional
strikes of its master, either.
Joshua Duffin
> Joshua Duffin wrote:
> > It seems to me that it might be more consistent and intuitive
> > to have non-strike "during strike resolution" effects happen
> > in sequenced order.
>
> Everything that happens "during strike resolution" happens
> simultaneously (during the "normal" strike resolution).
>
> This is how all of the "during strike resolution" cards have
> been designed to work.
Or so we assume now. :-)
> Changing this now would require a long study of the effects
> of doing so (i.e., powering up retainers that deal damage in
> that separate damage prevention effects will now be needed
> to handle each). Such study would be done if there were a problem
> with the current arrangement. As there is no problem with the
> current arrangement, the study will have very low priority
> (until such problem can be shown).
It could also make damage-dealing retainers 'beat' S:CE, which
would certainly be another change, yes.
Sure, there's no problem with the current arrangement, except
that it's not explicit by card text or rulebook text and
therefore not obvious to everyone. :-)
> > Normally the only thing that's simultaneous
> > in combat is "the effects of strikes from both minions"; if
>
> ... and all other "during strike resolution" effects.
Only because "they've always been that way", though.
> Card text of the original Wolf Companion didn't provide enough
> data to conclude that it didn't gain First Strike or the additional
> strikes of its master, either.
If you handled its damage "separately" it wouldn't be relevant
whether its controller had First Strike. Still, you're right,
although Murder of Crows' not-quite-parallel "inflicts 1R each
round of combat during strike resolution" pretty clearly implies
that it only happens once each round. Actually, current cardtext
of Wolf Companion appears to be no more clear on additional
strikes, other than via ruling/clarification. "When the minion
with this retainer is in combat, the opposing minion takes 1 damage
during strike resolution (if the range is close)." Nothing about
"during the first normal strike resolution step".
Josh
still, low priority's better than no priority at all...
LSJ
> that it's not explicit by card text or rulebook text and
> therefore not obvious to everyone. :-)
A problem shared by the proposed "solution", so no impetus there.
> > > Normally the only thing that's simultaneous
> > > in combat is "the effects of strikes from both minions"; if
> >
> > ... and all other "during strike resolution" effects.
>
> Only because "they've always been that way", though.
Like Skin of Rock doesn't work against steal blood effects,
because it's always been that way (that steal blood isn't damage).
This argument (it's always been this way) is a good argument
against changing it, actually.
> > Card text of the original Wolf Companion didn't provide enough
> > data to conclude that it didn't gain First Strike or the additional
> > strikes of its master, either.
>
> If you handled its damage "separately" it wouldn't be relevant
> whether its controller had First Strike. Still, you're right,
Now it seems that you're arguing for the current situation.
The damage is separate (not linked to the employer's strike or
inability to strike). It doesn't gain First Strike status if
its employer gets First Strike, nor is it nullified if the
employer cannot strike (Hidden Lurker, e.g.).
It is merely done during the initial normal strike resolution step
of the round.
> although Murder of Crows' not-quite-parallel "inflicts 1R each
> round of combat during strike resolution" pretty clearly implies
> that it only happens once each round. Actually, current cardtext
> of Wolf Companion appears to be no more clear on additional
> strikes, other than via ruling/clarification. "When the minion
> with this retainer is in combat, the opposing minion takes 1 damage
> during strike resolution (if the range is close)." Nothing about
> "during the first normal strike resolution step".
Right, since "during the initial normal strike resolution step" is
the default for "during strike resolution".
vermillian
> vermillian wrote:
> > LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message
> > > vermillian wrote:
> > > DW's effect has the same timiing window as Carrion Crows.
> >
> > But Carrion crows is damage being dealt, hence SCE resolves before it.
>
> No. Carrion Crows is "during strike resolution", hence SCE resolves
> before it.
>
> > As DW isn't a strike, and it isn't damage being dealt. Then by the
> > cases of SCE, DW isn't a strike, it isn't damage being dealt... then
> > it can happen before (or at the same time as) SCE, right? See below
> > for more detail...
>
> No. It is a "during strike resolution" effect (meaning "normal"
> strike resolution, since it doesn't specify otherwise).
So there is indeed a sub strike resolution phase, in which SCE
happens, this is what you're saying? So that when SCE resolves, it
isn't during Strike Resolution, but during its own special phase, that
isn't even Strike Resolution yet.
> > > It occurs before First Strike and before normal strike resolution.
> > > Since DW occurs during normal strike resolution, S:CE preempts it.
> >
> > I suppose this is my problem... I had no idea there was a 'normal'
> > strike resolution and that Darkness within was to happen during that
> > time. So is strike resolution broken up like this?
>
> "Normal" is just the term applied to non-special (non-FS, non-Dodge,
> non-SCE) strike resolution.
Strike resolution, or when strikes resolve? There's a difference,
isn't there?
> > Strike Resolution
> > 1.) Pre-emptive strike resolution
> > 2.) First strike
> > 3.) Normal strike resolution
>
> Strike resolution:
>
> 1. S:CE
> 2. Dodge
> 3. First Strike
> 4. others (normal)
According to THIS diagram, Darkness within qualifies as 4.) then? I
think you need to specify in 4.) what other is refered to as... Cause
as it is, as the card is written, DW happens during Strike Resolution.
On your chart this includes 1-4. DW does not specify when during
strike resolution it happens, so, as its my turn, I can choose to have
it occur during step 1.).
Now if it were dealing damage, or if it were a strike then it would
occur during 2.) (at least).
> > In which case, DW needs to be explained that it happens during NORMAL
> > strike resolution, not just anytime during strike resolution. Now if
> > it goes like this.
>
> It occurs "as normal" becuase it doesn't have text to indicate
> otherwise. It doesn't need text to affirm the default. It would
> need text to achieve something other than the default.
But doesn't SCE resolve during Strike Resolution (before first strike
and other strikes and effects that cause damage)?
> The rules for S:CE indicate that it occurs before First Strike and
> that FS occurs before a "normal" strike. [6.4.5]
But it isn't a strike, so Darkness within doesn't neccesarily imply it
resolves during normal strikes. It just says during strike resolution.
SCE does occur during strike resolution, but before normal strike
resolution. DW says that it occurs during strike resolution. It
doesn't say when, so, if its my turn, I can choose when it resolves,
during strike resolution.
Now, if you made a ruling that all effects that do not specify when
they are resolved, on the card or in the rules, will resolve during
strike resolution. But as it is, the ruling is just on Strikes, and
effects that cause damage. DW isn't a strike, and it isn't damage.
Do you see, at all, where I'm coming from?
Maybe I'll have to reclarify what I'm meaning... Once again.
You say
Strike Resolution
1.) SCE
2.) First Strike
3.) Dodge
4.) others
If by others, you mean ALL other effects (not just strikes, and
effects that deal damage) our case is done. But if by others you mean
just strikes and effects that deal damage, we're free to to play
effects that DON'T deal damage.
Like if I tapped Mariel, during Strike Resolution, to end combat and
deal 1 damage. Or if I played DW, and during Strike Resolution (which,
according to your flow chart, is when SCE resolves) took blood (not
damage).
Now, if you broke your flow chart into something like this however...
SCE Strike Resolution
Strike Resolution
Then I'd have no problem with DW happening after SCE.
SOrry this email is long, but it IS a difficult to word concept.
~SV
LSJ
> LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message
> > vermillian wrote:
> > > LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message
> > > > vermillian wrote:
> So there is indeed a sub strike resolution phase, in which SCE
> happens, this is what you're saying? So that when SCE resolves, it
That's what the rules say. "This type of strike is always the first
to resolve, even before a strike done with first strike". [6.4.5]
If you want to call it a sub-strike-resolution phase, fine.
> isn't during Strike Resolution, but during its own special phase, that
> isn't even Strike Resolution yet.
No. It is at the start of strike resolution, before any of the normal
strike resolution stuff, and even before any of the First Strike
strike resolution stuff.
> > > > It occurs before First Strike and before normal strike resolution.
> > > > Since DW occurs during normal strike resolution, S:CE preempts it.
> > >
> > > I suppose this is my problem... I had no idea there was a 'normal'
> > > strike resolution and that Darkness within was to happen during that
> > > time. So is strike resolution broken up like this?
> >
> > "Normal" is just the term applied to non-special (non-FS, non-Dodge,
> > non-SCE) strike resolution.
>
> Strike resolution, or when strikes resolve? There's a difference,
> isn't there?
The phase of combat in which strikes resolve is called strike resolution.
As per the rules, strikes resolve simulteously within that phase.
The exceptions to this, as listed in the rules, are strikes done with
First Strike (which occur earlier in the phase) and S:CE (which occur
first in the phase).
> > Strike resolution:
> >
> > 1. S:CE
> > 2. Dodge
> > 3. First Strike
> > 4. others (normal)
>
> According to THIS diagram, Darkness within qualifies as 4.) then? I
Yes. DW is "normal" - where "normal" is in any given diagram is
where DW is.
> think you need to specify in 4.) what other is refered to as... Cause
No. That's the whole point of "other".
If is ain't S:CE, Dodge, or FS, then it's "other".
> as it is, as the card is written, DW happens during Strike Resolution.
And it doesn't have any special modifications to that, so it gets
lumped in with the "normal" stuff.
> On your chart this includes 1-4. DW does not specify when during
> strike resolution it happens, so, as its my turn, I can choose to have
> it occur during step 1.).
If you like. You won't be playing by the official rules then, of course.
> Now if it were dealing damage, or if it were a strike then it would
> occur during 2.) (at least).
OK. Again, non-official.
> > > In which case, DW needs to be explained that it happens during NORMAL
> > > strike resolution, not just anytime during strike resolution. Now if
> > > it goes like this.
> >
> > It occurs "as normal" becuase it doesn't have text to indicate
> > otherwise. It doesn't need text to affirm the default. It would
> > need text to achieve something other than the default.
>
> But doesn't SCE resolve during Strike Resolution (before first strike
> and other strikes and effects that cause damage)?
Yes.
> > The rules for S:CE indicate that it occurs before First Strike and
> > that FS occurs before a "normal" strike. [6.4.5]
>
> But it isn't a strike, so Darkness within doesn't neccesarily imply it
> resolves during normal strikes. It just says during strike resolution.
... which, being unmodified, means "normal".
> SCE does occur during strike resolution, but before normal strike
> resolution. DW says that it occurs during strike resolution. It
> doesn't say when, so, if its my turn, I can choose when it resolves,
> during strike resolution.
Not officially.
> Now, if you made a ruling that all effects that do not specify when
> they are resolved, on the card or in the rules, will resolve during
> strike resolution. But as it is, the ruling is just on Strikes, and
> effects that cause damage. DW isn't a strike, and it isn't damage.
>
> Do you see, at all, where I'm coming from?
Yes. Hopefully you are bright enough to see the official rulings
(as stated several times in this thread) by now, as well.
> Maybe I'll have to reclarify what I'm meaning... Once again.
Welcome to my world.
> You say
>
> Strike Resolution
> 1.) SCE
> 2.) First Strike
> 3.) Dodge
> 4.) others
>
> If by others, you mean ALL other effects (not just strikes, and
> effects that deal damage) our case is done. But if by others you mean
Then we're done.
> just strikes and effects that deal damage, we're free to to play
> effects that DON'T deal damage.
>
> Like if I tapped Mariel, during Strike Resolution, to end combat and
> deal 1 damage. Or if I played DW, and during Strike Resolution (which,
You'd be violating Mariel's card text.
> according to your flow chart, is when SCE resolves) took blood (not
> damage).
You'd be violating the "as normal" implication of the lack of
modifiers on DW's timing.
> Now, if you broke your flow chart into something like this however...
>
> SCE Strike Resolution
> Strike Resolution
>
> Then I'd have no problem with DW happening after SCE.
>
> SOrry this email is long, but it IS a difficult to word concept.
>
> ~SV
Chris Berger
"vermillian" <vermil...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:f987c6cd.02043...@posting.google.com...
>
> I suppose this is my problem... I had no idea there was a 'normal'
> strike resolution and that Darkness within was to happen during that
> time. So is strike resolution broken up like this?
>
> Strike Resolution
> 1.) Pre-emptive strike resolution
> 2.) First strike
> 3.) Normal strike resolution
>
> In which case, DW needs to be explained that it happens during NORMAL
> strike resolution, not just anytime during strike resolution. Now if
> it goes like this.
>
"normal" strike resolution. That's what normal means. Strikes dealt with
first strike have a special resolution phase which occurs before normal strike,
and Strike: Combat Ends happens before that. There's really nothing confusing
about Darkness Within.
Joshua Duffin
> Joshua Duffin wrote:
> > Sure, there's no problem with the current arrangement, except
> > that it's not explicit by card text or rulebook text and
> > therefore not obvious to everyone. :-)
>
> A problem shared by the proposed "solution", so no impetus there.
Ah, but the "new way" could go in the rulebook. :-) (Of course,
so could the current way. I certainly think one of them should.)
> Like Skin of Rock doesn't work against steal blood effects,
> because it's always been that way (that steal blood isn't damage).
That's kind of different, since it's always been explicit in
the rulebook that blood-stealing isn't damage. Even in the
original Jyhad rulebook. Which said nothing about non-strike
effects that happened during strike resolution happening
during "normal strike effects" time.
> This argument (it's always been this way) is a good argument
> against changing it, actually.
It's always been this way only because of an early ruling on
Wolf Companion. I'm pretty sure there were other early rulings
that turned out to be bad ones. :-)
> > If you handled [WC's] damage "separately" it wouldn't be relevant
> > whether its controller had First Strike.
>
> Now it seems that you're arguing for the current situation.
No no. If you handled original-text Wolf Companion's damage
"separately" from that of its controller's strike - which the
text doesn't tell you not to do - you would have no reason to
believe that WC's damage should be applied during any particular
strike resolution substep (ie "normal" or "First Strike" or
"Strike: Combat Ends"). Instead you could equally logically
apply WC's damage at any point during strike resolution at the
controller's option, much like Weather Control.
> Right, since "during the initial normal strike resolution step" is
> the default for "during strike resolution".
By precedent, though, not by any rulebook text or card text.
What are we, lawyers? ;-)
Josh
oh wait, maybe we are.
vermillian
> vermillian wrote:
> > Maybe I'll have to reclarify what I'm meaning... Once again.
>
> Welcome to my world.
Hey, LSJ, I'm really sorry about this. I don't mean to give you a hard
time (this is probably pretty easy for you). I'm just trying to disect
every single rule as best as I can and interpret things strictly
literally in the rules... but then there is official interpretation of
the rules (perfectly acceptable) as you have next:
> > You say
> >
> > Strike Resolution
> > 1.) SCE
> > 2.) First Strike
> > 3.) Dodge
> > 4.) others
> >
> > If by others, you mean ALL other effects (not just strikes, and
> > effects that deal damage) our case is done. But if by others you mean
>
> Then we're done.
yep we're done. My only problem was that SCE says it occurs before
other strikes can resolve and before damage effects. As DW wasn't a
strike nor a damage effect I assumed it happened any time, but
according to official clarification Strike Combat Ends is the FIRST
effect to happen during the strike resolution phase, before everything
else. Not just Strikes but effects as well.
Thanks for your patience. If I find another loop hole though, be sure
to get more "sh*t" from me then.
~SV
vermillian
My ONLY qualm was that the rule book says SCE happens before other
strikes and damage dealing effects. This led me to believe that DW
could happen before or at the same time as SCE, as it wasn't damage,
and it wasn't a strike.
However, with the fact that really, SCE should be worded in the rule
book to say it happens during strike resolution, but before ALL other
strikes and effects.
~SV