Shimano 2004
Sheldon Brown
nuggets from it.
They have a new procedure for connecting chains. If you use the special
Shimano pin, you're supposed to orient the chain so that the inner link
to be connected is in front of the outer link that connects to it. This
is s'posed to reduce the chance of chain failure.
"Hollowtech II" cranks/bottom brackets are now the norm for 4 groups:
Dura-Ace and XTR as before, now also XT and Saint.
This is the system that mounts the actual bearings outboard of the BB
shell. This wider spacing between the two bearing cartridges reduces
stress on the bearings.
Since the cartridges don't need to fit inside the shell, they can use
larger bearings, and thus a larger diameter axle. The large diameter
axle is a thin wall tube, so in addition to greater stiffness from the
large diameter, it saves a considerable amount of weight. The hollow
axle also makes a good place to hide your stash.
The bearing modules are interchangeable among the 4 different Hollowtech
II lines. They are not the _same_ but they are interchangeable.
The major offroad news is a major revision to the XT group, and the new
Saint sub-group.
XT now has most of the new features introduced last year into XTR,
updated brifters, spline mounted brake discs, Hollowtech II crank.
Saint is a heavy-duty premium grouplet, consisting of hubs, rear
derailer, brifters and crank.
The derailer is extra beefy, and mounts to the axle, rather than to the
frame. The Saint hub has an oversized through axle, with a 10 mm
"skewer" that bolts through from the left end. This skewer, the same
diameter as a standard rear axle, holds the very beefy rear derailer.
The Saint rear derailer is designed to withstand considerable buffeting.
They've relocated the cable anchor to the upper/inner side of the
parallelogram, making the external parts smooth so as not to get snagged
on stuff.
The newer derailers from all 4 of these groups have a redesigned
parallelogram, with a sort of hermpahrodite outer plate, which goes
inside the upper knuckle, but straddles the lower knuckle. This is
s'posed to make it stiffer.
Good news on the terminology front! They've abandoned the made-up term
'Rapid Rise' and now, correctly, refer to the XTR, XT and Saint rear
derailers as 'low normal."
Shimano plans a renewed push on the Nexus components in the U.S. market.
These have reputedly been selling very well in Europe, but haven't
caught on here to any great extent. The new 8-speed hub, in particular,
is a very tasty piece, and I'm eagerly awaiting my first shipment of
them. I have ridden bikes with them out in Las Vegas
(http://sheldonbrown.com/lasvegas/) but this was the first opportunity
I've had to actually handle a bare hub. I was pleased to note how
free-running the main bearings felt, compared with the 7-speed version.
There was a fair amount of stiffness in turning the sprocket on the
axle, but I suspect this was seal drag on this new hub.
I do think they're missing a bet on the 8-speed shifter. They only have
two shifters, one is a twistie, t'other push-button type.
Unfortunately, the both have built-in brake levers, making them
incompatible with drop bar applications.
They did show a clever tool for measuring to install the cable anchor
bolt on Nexus shift cables.
The Dura-Ace 10-speed setup seems very nice, as one might expect. The
crank is drop-dead gorgeous, and astonishingly light.
The Dura-Ace brifters now have set the shifter axis at an angle, so that
the shift levers move slightly to the rear as they move inward. This is
an ergonomic improvement, particularly for folks with short fingers.
The shape of the lever has been slightly revised for the same purpose.
The front of the hood is how taller, reflecting the tendency recently
seen for riders to either tilt their bars higher or mount the brifters
higher, as they are spending more of their time riding on the hoods.
Supposedly this new design gives the desired hood provision, while
providing unimpeded access to the brake levers from the drops.
Saint and Dura-Ace Freehubs are totally revised. They have large
alumimum axles, use cartridge bearings for the Freehub ratchet, and have
the pawls (3 of them acting together) inboard of the cassette body,
permitting the pawl ring to be larger in diameter.
They still use traditional cup-and-cone bearings, but with 14 3/16"
balls rather than the usual 9 1/4"s.
The Dura-Ace 10-speed Freehub has an aluminum body, and the male splines
on the Freehub are taller. As a result, older cassettes won't fit the
new body, but the new 10 speed cassettes will fit older 8-/9-speed hubs.
The reason for this is to prevent damage to the soft aluminum Freehub
body by running spiderless steel sprockets on it. Such sprockets would
be liable to "notch" the splines of the Freehub body. This has been
observed on off-brand "boutique" hubs with aluminum cassette bodies in
the past.
Sheldon "Newshound" Brown
+--------------------------------------------------+
| Pohl's law: Nothing is so good that somebody, |
| somewhere, will not hate it. |
+--------------------------------------------------+
Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts
Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041
http://harriscyclery.com
Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com
David Damerell
>They have a new procedure for connecting chains. If you use the special
>Shimano pin, you're supposed to orient the chain so that the inner link
>to be connected is in front of the outer link that connects to it. This
>is s'posed to reduce the chance of chain failure.
I wonder if you could explain this in more detail - I can't see how else
one would put a chain together except with the two separate links next to
each other.
--
David Damerell <dame...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> Kill the tomato!
Sheldon Brown
>>They have a new procedure for connecting chains. If you use the special
>>Shimano pin, you're supposed to orient the chain so that the inner link
>>to be connected is in front of the outer link that connects to it. This
>>is s'posed to reduce the chance of chain failure.
David Damerell asked:
> I wonder if you could explain this in more detail - I can't see how else
> one would put a chain together except with the two separate links next to
> each other.
Right. The question is which direction the closed joint faces. The
inner link is s'posed to face forward (with respect to the chain motion
direction)
Here's some ASCII art.
-------------^---- ------------------
--------------------------
| | | | chain motion --->
--------------------------
------------------ ------------------
^
Special pin here
Sheldon "Directionalitude" Brown
+-------------------------------------------------------------+
| I'm only a beer teetotaller, not a champagne teetotaller. |
| --George Bernard Shaw |
+-------------------------------------------------------------+
David
"David Damerell" <dame...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote in message news:7is*FV...@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk...
> Sheldon Brown <Capt...@sheldonbrown.com> wrote:
> >They have a new procedure for connecting chains. If you use the special
> >Shimano pin, you're supposed to orient the chain so that the inner link
> >to be connected is in front of the outer link that connects to it. This
> >is s'posed to reduce the chance of chain failure.
>
> I wonder if you could explain this in more detail - I can't see how else
> one would put a chain together except with the two separate links next to
> each other.
He's talking about the direction of the chain on the bike. A pair of outer
plates connects to an inner link. Either the inner link is in front (how they
now recommend) or behind the outer plate pair.
kapers68
Any chance you got to see any of the Capreo stuff? I'm curious what you
thought of the freehub/cogs interface. Also, what did you think of the new
9sp shifter with the trim feature (on the left) that is being spec'd on many
higher-end hybrids (I think it is the SL-440 if memory serves... which it
usually doesn't). Finally, a separate shifter (non brifter) that can be used
to assist those 9 speed conversions with non-standard parts and those
"9-speed" cranksets where the ring spacing is not quite.....
Hope you had a great Holiday Season.
K Pears.
"The knack lies in learning to throw yourself
- at the ground and miss"
Douglas Adams.
"Sheldon Brown" <capt...@sheldonbrown.com> wrote in message
news:400D629B...@sheldonbrown.com...
Sheldon Brown
> Hey Sheldon.
> Any chance you got to see any of the Capreo stuff? I'm curious what you
> thought of the freehub/cogs interface.
Me too! I have yet to see any Capreo hardware, that wasn't featured or
even mentioned at this presentation. Likely to be a while before we see
it in aftermarket...
> Also, what did you think of the new
> 9sp shifter with the trim feature (on the left) that is being spec'd on many
> higher-end hybrids (I think it is the SL-440 if memory serves...
Haven't seen these, seems like mainly a marketing exercise to me, not
importantly different from their "mountain" shifters.
> Finally, a separate shifter (non brifter) that can be used
> to assist those 9 speed conversions with non-standard parts and those
> "9-speed" cranksets where the ring spacing is not quite.....
No shortage there. See:
http://harriscyclery.net/site/page.cfm?PageID=49&Category=2390
There is a lot of confusion about the compatibility of narrow 9-speed
chains with older cranksets. Shimano says you should replace the inner
chainring(s) with specially designated 9-speed ones, but then they're
all too eager to sell you stuff, whether you need it or not.
Shimano is also concerned about clueless users. The worst-case scenario
is that you will be riding along with the bike in its highest gear
(large front, small rear) and then for some bizarre reason shift down in
front before downshifting in the back. (There is no shift pattern in
which it is reasonable to shift in this sequence.) If you _do_ shift
this way, there's a small chance that the chain might "skate" over the
edges of the teeth for maybe half a turn.
In practice this "problem" almost never materializes. Many, many
cyclists are using 9-speed chains with older cranksets and having no
problems whatever.
Sheldon "3 Paragraphs Of Boilerplate" Brown
+-----------------------------------------------+
| A government that robs Peter to pay Paul |
| can always depend upon the support of Paul. |
| --George Bernard Shaw |
+-----------------------------------------------+
Per Elmsäter
> There is a lot of confusion about the compatibility of narrow 9-speed
> chains with older cranksets. Shimano says you should replace the
> inner chainring(s) with specially designated 9-speed ones, but then
> they're all too eager to sell you stuff, whether you need it or not.
>
Excuse me for butting in here but maybe you just solved a weird problem for
me. I have Nexave triple chainrings and crankset on my hybrid that initially
came with an 8 speed cassette. Last year I switched to a nine speed SRAM
cassette, XT RD and XT shifters. I ran an SRAM nine speed chain on this
setup, no problems. This chain was recently exchanged since it was down to
the 1.0 mark on my Parktool chain gauge and I put on a Deore chain. Now all
sorts of weird stuff started happening on my small chainring. At least when
I was putting a lot of tension on the chain in my very smallest gear (
26-31). The chain would climb off the granny ring to the inside. NB not when
I changed gears but after climbing some time and putting more pressure on
the pedals, as in steeper hill and slower pedaling.
Could this have anything to do with the Shimano replacement recomenndation
you mentioned above?
--
Perre
You have to be smarter than a robot to reply.
Sheldon Brown
>
>>There is a lot of confusion about the compatibility of narrow 9-speed
>>chains with older cranksets. Shimano says you should replace the
>>inner chainring(s) with specially designated 9-speed ones, but then
>>they're all too eager to sell you stuff, whether you need it or not.
>>
>
> Excuse me for butting in here but maybe you just solved a weird problem for
> me. I have Nexave triple chainrings and crankset on my hybrid that initially
> came with an 8 speed cassette. Last year I switched to a nine speed SRAM
> cassette, XT RD and XT shifters. I ran an SRAM nine speed chain on this
> setup, no problems. This chain was recently exchanged since it was down to
> the 1.0 mark on my Parktool chain gauge and I put on a Deore chain. Now all
> sorts of weird stuff started happening on my small chainring. At least when
> I was putting a lot of tension on the chain in my very smallest gear (
> 26-31). The chain would climb off the granny ring to the inside. NB not when
> I changed gears but after climbing some time and putting more pressure on
> the pedals, as in steeper hill and slower pedaling.
> Could this have anything to do with the Shimano replacement recomenndation
> you mentioned above?
I would say not. If you were having a problem from this minor
"mismatch" it would be between the chainrings, not off the inside.
My guess is that the chainring is worn out.
It's also possible that this is a bigger issue with Shimano chains. I
don't much use Shimano chains, generally preferring SRAM.
Sheldon "Chains" Brown
+---------------------------------------------------------+
| Patriotism is your conviction that this country is |
| superior to all others because you were born in it. |
| -- George Bernard Shaw |
+---------------------------------------------------------+
J. Matt
> shell. This wider spacing between the two bearing cartridges reduces
> stress on the bearings.
i've heard that the new bearings, specifically the XTR 0outboards are
failure-prone, to the point that--at least in december--replacements
were unavailable and Dura Ace bearings were recommended as a
substitute. Any veracity to this?
> The Dura-Ace 10-speed setup seems very nice, as one might expect.
> The crank is drop-dead gorgeous, and astonishingly light.
i think it looks like a schlong.
Ryan Cousineau
Sheldon Brown <capt...@sheldonbrown.com> wrote:
> I wrote obscurely:
>
> >>They have a new procedure for connecting chains. If you use the special
> >>Shimano pin, you're supposed to orient the chain so that the inner link
> >>to be connected is in front of the outer link that connects to it. This
> >>is s'posed to reduce the chance of chain failure.
>
> David Damerell asked:
>
> > I wonder if you could explain this in more detail - I can't see how else
> > one would put a chain together except with the two separate links next to
> > each other.
>
> Right. The question is which direction the closed joint faces. The
> inner link is s'posed to face forward (with respect to the chain motion
> direction)
>
> Here's some ASCII art.
>
> -------------^---- ------------------
> --------------------------
> | | | | chain motion --->
> --------------------------
> ------------------ ------------------
> ^
> Special pin here
>
> Sheldon "Directionalitude" Brown
Wow. I'm hoping JB or another engineer weighs in on this. Or maybe you
have an idea: aren't they chasing some _very_ small gains either way
with this sort of spec? I'm still trying to envision what advantage they
hope for.
--
Ryan Cousineau, rcou...@sfu.ca http://www.sfu.ca/~rcousine
President, Fabrizio Mazzoleni Fan Club
Per Elmsäter
Thanks. Yes more and more is pointing towards worn chainrings. Possibly
flexing under load.
You did mention problems between chainrings. I had another problem when the
Deore chain was absolutely new. It started climbing back and forth between
the small and middle chainring. At first I thought that it was skipping cogs
in the rear until I actually saw what was happening. After a lot of
adjusting on the FD it has almost stopped doing this.
Whichever, it sounds like I need new chainrings anyway ;)
Qui si parla Campagnolo
the pawls (3 of them acting together) inboard of the cassette body,
Geee...sounds familiar...
Capt Bike-<< The Dura-Ace 10-speed Freehub has an aluminum body, and the male
splines
on the Freehub are taller. As a result, older cassettes won't fit the
new body, but the new 10 speed cassettes will fit older 8-/9-speed hubs.
>><BR><BR>
This does too....
Peter Chisholm
Vecchio's Bicicletteria
1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535
http://www.vecchios.com
"Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"
Qui si parla Campagnolo
I know it was a 'tech' seminar but any info as to how they intend to continue
to protect their distribution? There are still OEM 2004 DA and XTR groups out
there for 30-40% less than MSRP...
Qui si parla Campagnolo
i think it looks like a schlong. >><BR><BR>
Or a silver flying squirrel.
I have heard that XTR bearings have already gone thru a running change to make
them better sealed. Hopefully the DA are better sealed. When calling shimano I
got the typical, " haven't heard that", but a shop in Oregon started this with
a set of failed XTR bearings.
bfd
"Qui si parla Campagnolo" <vecc...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040121093649...@mb-m17.aol.com...
> << Last night I went to the annual Shimano tech seminar. Here are some
> nuggets from it. >><BR><BR>
>
> I know it was a 'tech' seminar but any info as to how they intend to
continue
> to protect their distribution? There are still OEM 2004 DA and XTR groups
out
> there for 30-40% less than MSRP...
>
list, that's quite a bit of savings. Thanks....
Qui si parla Campagnolo
off
list, that's quite a bit of savings. Thanks.... >><BR><BR>
Jay of Montreal was talking about this. I'm sure there is grey market DA/XTR/XT
and Saint stuff out there. Whether or not it comes with a warranty and whether
or not it is first quality, who knows but the flow isn't going to be turned off
in 1 or 2 years.
bfd
> BFD-<< Where? Please let us know as I'm interested in "upgrading". At
30-40%
> off
> list, that's quite a bit of savings. Thanks.... >><BR><BR>
>
> Jay of Montreal was talking about this. I'm sure there is grey market
DA/XTR/XT
> and Saint stuff out there. Whether or not it comes with a warranty and
whether
> or not it is first quality, who knows but the flow isn't going to be
turned off
> in 1 or 2 years.
>
are. AFter all, isn't that the purpose of MO and/or buying parts on the
internet - to get it cheaper! If I can't get that big 30-40%+ discount, I
might as well buy direct from my LBS...
D. Keith Arbuckle
One thing that I have been curious about is the difference between the
Dura-Ace SPD-L pedal models. Is there any other difference besides the
finish between the 7800 and 7750 pedals?
Thanks.
-Keith
"Sheldon Brown" <capt...@sheldonbrown.com> wrote in message
news:400D629B...@sheldonbrown.com...
onefred
> Saint and Dura-Ace Freehubs are totally revised.
>
> ...
>
> They still use traditional cup-and-cone bearings, but with 14 3/16"
> balls rather than the usual 9 1/4"s.
Wow, 28 instead of 18 balls to lose. So why would Shimano do this? It
seems to me that the larger balls would roll better under the greater load
as compared to the front. Why go with smaller balls in the rear hub?? I
don't get it. For weight savings?? To match the front hub?
Dave
D. Keith Arbuckle
"D. Keith Arbuckle" <dkarbuckle-don't-need-t...@yahoo.com> wrote in
message news:d7%Pb.41384$Bj....@twister.tampabay.rr.com...
Sheldon Brown
>>Saint and Dura-Ace Freehubs are totally revised.
>>
>>...
>>They still use traditional cup-and-cone bearings, but with 14 3/16"
>>balls rather than the usual 9 1/4"s.
>
Someone asked:
>
> Wow, 28 instead of 18 balls to lose. So why would Shimano do this? It
> seems to me that the larger balls would roll better under the greater load
> as compared to the front. Why go with smaller balls in the rear hub?? I
> don't get it. For weight savings?? To match the front hub?
These hubs have oversized aluminum axles. They're oversized to make
them strong, needed since, unlike previous Shimano Freehubs, the right
side main bearing is inboard of the cassette, so there would be a risk
of bending a standard diameter axle. Also, the larger diameter lets
them use aluminum for the axle, reducing weight.
The reason for moving the main bearing inboard was to permit them to
also move the pawl ring inward, and thus to considerably increase the
pawl radius, since the pawl mechanism no longer needs to fit the inside
of the splined sprocket body. This makes a stronger ratchet with less
lost motion as the drive is taken up.
Since the axle is oversized, the circle of bearing balls also has to be
oversized. Since the ball circle is larger, they can fit more balls
into it. Since they can fit more balls, they don't need to be as large.
If they used, say, a dozen 1/4" balls in a similar circle, the outer
race would become larger, adding weight and probably leading to a
non-standard flange diameter.
Basically all of this was done in aid of either lightness or durability
or some combination of the two.
Sheldon "One Thing Leads To Another" Brown
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
| People who have invested in moulds - literally or figuratively - |
| will always oppose things that they can't stamp out of those moulds.|
| -- Andy Dyson. |
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
Qui si parla Campagnolo
Didn't know this..The freehub is no longer bolted onto the hub body? Seems like
a poor exchange for just less weight. I really liked the way shimano hubs were
made, now, not so sure.
Sheldon Brown
>> [New Dura-Ace] since, unlike previous Shimano Freehubs, the right
>> side main bearing is inboard of the cassette, so there would be a risk
>> of bending a standard diameter axle.
Peter Chisholm replied:
>
> Didn't know this..The freehub is no longer bolted onto the hub body?
Yes. They're actually a _lot_ like recent Campagnolo hubs.
> Seems like
> a poor exchange for just less weight. I really liked the way shimano hubs were
> made, now, not so sure.
I agree. Even for 10-speed use, I'd probably go with a proven Ultegra hub.
Sheldon "Not A Weight Weenie" Brown
+--------------------------------------------+
| And the end of all our exploring |
| Will be to arrive where we started |
| And know the place for the first time. |
| --T.S. Eliot, Four Quartets |
+--------------------------------------------+
JayofMontreal
Lakeside Sports in Texas (ask for Jim)
www.probicycles.com
Wisecyclebuys.com will price match
Cambria will price match
It doesn't take much investigation to get a great deal, and this is not grey
market componentry as far as I know.
Jay
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bfd
> Capt Bike-<< since, unlike previous Shimano Freehubs, the right
> side main bearing is inboard of the cassette, so there would be a risk
> of bending a standard diameter axle. >><BR><BR>
>
> Didn't know this..The freehub is no longer bolted onto the hub body? Seems like
> a poor exchange for just less weight. I really liked the way shimano hubs were
> made, now, not so sure.
>
like the current Campy hubs. The question I have is whether the new
2004 shimano DA 10 hubs are as "quiet" as the older shimano 9 hubs? If
not, that would be ashame...
Dietrich Wiegmann
> frame. The Saint hub has an oversized through axle, with a 10 mm
> "skewer" that bolts through from the left end. This skewer, the same
> diameter as a standard rear axle, holds the very beefy rear derailer.
>
> The Saint rear derailer is designed to withstand considerable buffeting.
> They've relocated the cable anchor to the upper/inner side of the
> parallelogram, making the external parts smooth so as not to get snagged
> on stuff.
>
-Dietrich
Jay Beattie
"Sheldon Brown" <Capt...@sheldonbrown.com> wrote in message
news:4010AAC...@sheldonbrown.com...
Not to be thick, but does this mean that the Shimano hubs now
look like the Campagnolo hubs with the bulging center section?
Crank bearings out; hub bearings in; headset bearings hidden.
Its hard to keep track of all the bearing movement these days. --
Jay Beattie.
Rick Onanian
<jbea...@lindsayhart.com> wrote:
>Crank bearings out; hub bearings in; headset bearings hidden.
>Its hard to keep track of all the bearing movement these days. --
Just try to keep track of the truck bearing down on you in the
road...
--
Rick Onanian
Qui si parla Campagnolo
It doesn't take much investigation to get a great deal, and this is not grey
market componentry as far as I know. >><BR><BR>
But these boys are not on shimano's list of those who can sell MO or via the
internet...
Don't really iunderstand wehy they would want to sell for so far below margin
either, with something that is obviously in demand.
Paul Kopit
Campagnolo) wrote:
>Don't really iunderstand wehy they would want to sell for so far below margin
>either, with something that is obviously in demand.
First you have to know that you are competing with a company in
another business. You're selling a product for use and the other
company is using the product as a cash commodity. Trading is one of
the oldest businesses.
Trading business is frequently based on a limited amount of capital
and credit line and getting maximum turns. It's better to make
$15/unit on 10 units than $30/unit on 5 if you can get your capital
back in 10 days vs 30 days. You get your reputation by selling some
items very cheap and will also sell other items at close to regular
margin. The model for this is a supermarket.
The trader keeps his overhead to a minimum and spends less time
selling than buying. Anyone could buy a short, 10' container of tubes
from the largest tube maker in China and own them in a USA warehouse
for <60¢, maybe more like 30¢. It's better if you have an agent that
can get you several items and fill a 20' container. If you can turn
them in 30 days from the time you open the letter of credit, you make
$. If you can do this on a few items, you have a business that makes
money that you spend a few hours a week at. And certainly the company
that sells tubes for $10 for 10 tubes must have other inexpensive
items too. The traders also trade and barter among themselves. On a
given item, a good trader has at least ½ of what he buys sold before
he orders and he might sell that customer at cost.
It used to be that the trader needed to travel abroad to get sources
and contacts but the internet has changed all that. Complex banking
arrangements can now be simplified to "paypal in $US against document
presentation via email".
The items that turn fastest are the ones in most demand. The customer
base is easy and cheap to reach and the trader doesn't have to invest
lots in visiting customers.
It's not so far fetched to have a trader buy 50 Chorus 10 sp cassettes
for $60 each and sell them in a week for $75. How long does the local
bicycle shop take to sell 50 cassettes for $90 each?
Carl Fogel
> Jay-<< Lakeside Sports in Texas (ask for Jim)
> www.probicycles.com
> Wisecyclebuys.com will price match
> Cambria will price match
>
> It doesn't take much investigation to get a great deal, and this is not grey
> market componentry as far as I know. >><BR><BR>
>
> But these boys are not on shimano's list of those who can sell MO or via the
> internet...
>
> Don't really iunderstand wehy they would want to sell for so far below margin
> either, with something that is obviously in demand.
>
> Peter Chisholm
Dear Peter,
Possibly they can't eat bicycle parts?
Cash can be a wonderful thing. Back when 80
megabyte hard drives were considered monsters,
I bought my first 330 megabyte ESDI drive when
Miniscribe went bankrupt and some engineers
formed a small company that needed cash to
start up.
They turned the expensive drives that they didn't
need into quick cash to pay the rent by offering
people like me fantastic deals, $500 for a drive
that dealers were still offering six months later
for $900.
Obviously, there was no warranty with Miniscribe
dead, but I didn't care--I had the biggest hard
drive on my block for about 55% of what dealers
who could afford to wait were still asking.
Carl Fogel
Qui si parla Campagnolo
another business. >><BR><BR>
In spite of the fact that these outfits are selling grey market(exception is
Cambira), I understand completely your 'model' but like Rolex's, the thing to
do is pay less and sell for a fair price. True to sell 10 cogsets for $75, but
volume is the key to 'ignoring margin' in exchange for volume and gross
dollars. The problem is when the volume or your supply suffers, so do you.
Qui si parla Campagnolo
$60 more...
Plus we install the group for free.
Qui si parla Campagnolo
$1620 or so for a group-DA...
I wonder if Jay got group w/o hubs, suspect he did-
Matt O'Toole
> Paul-<< First you have to know that you are competing with a company
> in another business. >><BR><BR>
>
> In spite of the fact that these outfits are selling grey
> market(exception is Cambira), I understand completely your 'model'
> but like Rolex's, the thing to do is pay less and sell for a fair
> price. True to sell 10 cogsets for $75, but volume is the key to
> 'ignoring margin' in exchange for volume and gross dollars. The
> problem is when the volume or your supply suffers, so do you.
That's true at any level, whether you're selling huge volume or just a few
units.
Matt O.
JMatt
> nuggets from it.
I ran across this nugget I would have expected you to comment on.
Apparently a new Shimano cantilever brake? Looks much like the Avid.
From the picture I can't tell if the pads are adjusted like linear
pull brakes (read easy) or like the old cantilevers (read AARRGGHHH).
Has anyone seen these? I'm looking to change from LPs to Canti's on my
CX bike when I go to STI and these look pretty interesting. I've seen
the NOS XTIIs on Harris' website but when I think of adjusting them I
start to shake and foam at the mouth with memories of my brief and
doomed time wrenching.
Sheldon Brown
>>Last night I went to the annual Shimano tech seminar. Here are some
>>nuggets from it.
>
JMatt wrote:
>
> I ran across this nugget I would have expected you to comment on.
>
> http://www.excelsports.com/new.asp?page=8&description=Cantilever+Brake+BR%2DR550&vendorCode=SHIM&major=2&minor=7
>
I would have commented if they had been covered at that seminar, but
they weren't.
> Apparently a new Shimano cantilever brake? Looks much like the Avid.
Sure does.
> From the picture I can't tell if the pads are adjusted like linear
> pull brakes (read easy) or like the old cantilevers (read AARRGGHHH).
These use the same shoe adjustment system as most linear pull brakes
(and the Avid Shortys.)
They were spec'ed on a number of bikes I saw out in Las Vegas, but I
haven't seen these in the aftermarket stream yet. They look nice, but
not better than the Avids in any obvious way.
> Has anyone seen these? I'm looking to change from LPs to Canti's on my
> CX bike when I go to STI and these look pretty interesting. I've seen
> the NOS XTIIs on Harris' website but when I think of adjusting them I
> start to shake and foam at the mouth with memories of my brief and
> doomed time wrenching.
They're not all that hard.
http://sheldonbrown.com/cantilever-adjustment.html
Sheldon "Can't Write About Everything In Every Article" Brown
+--------------------------------------------------------+
| The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic |
| is no more to the point than the fact than |
| a drunken man is happier than a sober one. |
| --George Bernard Shaw |
+--------------------------------------------------------+
Christian Odenthal
> They were spec'ed on a number of bikes I saw out in Las Vegas, but I
> haven't seen these in the aftermarket stream yet. They look nice, but
> not better than the Avids in any obvious way.
At least in Germany they are readily available.
>
> > Has anyone seen these? I'm looking to change from LPs to Canti's on my
> > CX bike when I go to STI and these look pretty interesting.
[...]
I recently installed them on my bike replacing the original brake pads
with kool stop salmon pads. Adjustment was not too hard. As I can judge
by now, braking is quite OK. Together with the kool stop pads they
squeal a little but not too much.
Christian Odenthal
A Muzi
>>Last night I went to the annual Shimano tech seminar. Here are some
>>nuggets from it.
JMatt wrote:
> I ran across this nugget I would have expected you to comment on.
> http://www.excelsports.com/new.asp?page=8&description=Cantilever+Brake+BR%2DR550&vendorCode=SHIM&major=2&minor=7
> Apparently a new Shimano cantilever brake? Looks much like the Avid.
> From the picture I can't tell if the pads are adjusted like linear
> pull brakes (read easy) or like the old cantilevers (read AARRGGHHH).
> Has anyone seen these? I'm looking to change from LPs to Canti's on my
> CX bike when I go to STI and these look pretty interesting. I've seen
> the NOS XTIIs on Harris' website but when I think of adjusting them I
> start to shake and foam at the mouth with memories of my brief and
> doomed time wrenching.
Curious comment. Mechanics here like threadless brake shoes
because they afford more adjustment planes. Lube your
fasteners if you find them difficult.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
Qui si parla Campagnolo
Look at Tektros, very nice, feel/work great with road levers and $20 per set.
JMatt
> because they afford more adjustment planes. Lube your
> fasteners if you find them difficult.
I guess it's the multitude of adjustment planes which I found
difficult.
With LPs, I simply rubber-band the top of the brake arms together and
the pads optimally self-adjust themselves.
Interestingly enough, I feel pretty confident with most other
mechanical tasks, including wheel building. Who knows, maybe I have
cantilexia.