Keeping the old CPUs alive
river
I collect old processors (8080/85, 6800, 2650, etc) and I have gone to all
the
makers of these fine old chips and none of them (Intel, Motorola, etc) have
anywhere
on their sites for these old dears.
What a shame!
Surely it wouldn't take much for them to put their old code and data on a
server so us
oldies can keep these systems running. Why can't I get a listing of the old
MCS80
monitor ROM, or information on 6800 or 2650.. etc?
You'd think they'd put some stuff on their websites. It's not like I'm
asking for support.
I just want some old software listing and specs.
These chips are their history and I think its pretty sad that they care
little for it. Sure, I know
they're all big companies now and look forward to more profits with newer
technology, but,
their early forays into processors (I think) should be well regarded and
remembered and
with a little bit of information people like me (and probably many others)
could keep these
old things going.
I'm not using them for work or business - just a hobby, but gosh it's
frustrating to be stone-
walled with the usual "sorry, that product is obsolete adn you're on your
own - have a nice
day" attitude.
seeyuzz
river
Robert Monaghan
namely that your request costs money to hire folks to post and maintain
a web site with the various documentation and listings from which they get
no benefits to explain why they are doing this to their stockholders.
So how do you get them to want to do this? In two words... TAX DEDUCTIONS.
We need to support a "computer museum" which collects and provides access
to old programs and code and documentation among its activities as an IRS
501(C3) corp., making donations of old documentation and non-supported old
software tax deductible to the corporations and available to us. The
corp. could even get a tax deduction for contributions to the museum to
praise and record for posterity its achievements and archive its history.
regards bobm
--
* Robert Monaghan POB752182 Dallas Tx 75275-2182 rmon...@post.cis.smu.edu *
* Bronica 6x6 medium format: http://www.smu.edu/~rmonagha/bronica.html site *
* Medium Format Cameras: http://www.smu.edu/~rmonagha/mf/index.html megasite*
Al Kossow
> Hi,
>
> I collect old processors (8080/85, 6800, 2650, etc) and I have gone to all
> the
> makers of these fine old chips and none of them (Intel, Motorola, etc) have
> anywhere
> on their sites for these old dears.
>
Data sheets for many of these parts can be found by doing a web search.
I do know what you mean, though. I've been trying to find the full data
book for the Signetics/Seimens 2636 graphics controller chip for years now.
Tim Shoppa
>
> Hi,
>
> I collect old processors (8080/85, 6800, 2650, etc) and I have gone to all
> the
> makers of these fine old chips and none of them (Intel, Motorola, etc) have
> anywhere
> on their sites for these old dears.
>
>
> Surely it wouldn't take much for them to put their old code and data on a
> server so us
> oldies can keep these systems running. Why can't I get a listing of the old
> MCS80
> monitor ROM, or information on 6800 or 2650.. etc?
But you *can* get listings of all these items, in roughly the same
place as you would've found them 20 or 25 years ago: at a good
technical library. If you've got an engineering school nearby,
they've almost certainly got the information you need, hidden in
these amazing containers called "books".
Just because something isn't on the web doesn't mean that it's
not available! If one believed *that*, you'd come to the conclusion
that not much interesting happened at all until 5 or 6 years ago.
Tim.
Chris Nelson
Where companies deny their past in order to forward the latest quarters
profits.
The sad thing is that I can't get support on on products which were made
three years ago.
But if you try to post a data book from products over 15 years old to
help others, they can sue you for breach of copy right law.
Weird hey? Wonder what would happen if someone challenge them on this?
Anybody with deep pockets?
BTW I am in the same predicament with information on the Motorola 88k
RISC chips. Even got an email that said in not so many words: Go away,
beat it, quit bugging us, scram.
Take care,
Chris Nelson
river wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> I collect old processors (8080/85, 6800, 2650, etc) and I have gone to all
> the
> makers of these fine old chips and none of them (Intel, Motorola, etc) have
> anywhere
> on their sites for these old dears.
>
> What a shame!
>
> Surely it wouldn't take much for them to put their old code and data on a
> server so us
> oldies can keep these systems running. Why can't I get a listing of the old
> MCS80
> monitor ROM, or information on 6800 or 2650.. etc?
>
David M. Razler
| I think a better approach is to look at it from the Corp.'s viewpoint,
| namely that your request costs money to hire folks to post and maintain
| a web site with the various documentation and listings from which they get
| no benefits to explain why they are doing this to their stockholders.
|
| So how do you get them to want to do this? In two words... TAX DEDUCTIONS.
|
| We need to support a "computer museum" which collects and provides access
| to old programs and code and documentation among its activities as an IRS
| 501(C3) corp., making donations of old documentation and non-supported old
| software tax deductible to the corporations and available to us. The
| corp. could even get a tax deduction for contributions to the museum to
| praise and record for posterity its achievements and archive its history.
|
| regards bobm
Given the cost of creation care and feeding of a 501(c)3 - (as creator,
incorporator, corporate agent, and as a journalist, an investigator of 501(c)3
fraud):
What we need to do is use one that laready exists! I would suggest The
Historical Computer Collection, since it has the best resources and corporate
sponsorship already.
There *is* a problem when it comes to convincing a company to give up
intellectual property rights long after the value of the material under
protection has been reduced to something that, while tax-deductable, is
"worthless" to a pirate or reverse engineer. (a complete set of masks for the
Intel 4004 would allow me, given a fab, to produce Intel 4004 duplicates some
pointy-haired men just don't get it) DEC has not had a problem granting
blanket collector licenses, but we're talking about a load of other companies,
some of which no longer exist, or have been swallowed up so many times, the
owner of IP rights can be cursedly hard to find.
Then there's the library-vs-available to all model problem: Lots of
TV/radio folks donate archives to the Museum of Radio and Television. Said
narrow-minded folks are terrified that someone will want a copy of, oh, the
490th episode of Gilligan's Island for entertainment or steal a clip of CBS
News for October 2, 1965 and reair it that one cannot borrow a tape.
I have suggested the organization at least establish an encrypted
satellite signal so I can walk into any university library and order a vewing
of the first episode of My Mother the Car or something equally important, or
that titles that are not going to be made available for home release be
available on loan, fair use copies permitted (particularly valuable to
academics and folks who just want "that one show" they'll never see again).
But the answer is always "NO!"
I would love to see THCC place every page of its library on a server in
PDF format or, better yet, format-preserved OCR - and expand its library to
include every dead computer and computer component manual ever written, along
with all the "dead" software. (including, let's say every release of Windows
up to 3.1 but not the still-supported 9X)
I doubt it will happen because, as a lawyer friend of mine commented
recently "you can do more time for stealing intellectual property than first
degree murder these days."
dmr
David M. Razler
david....@worldnet.att.net
Dave Babcock
news:87126e$uqu$1...@the-fly.zip.com.au...
> I collect old processors (8080/85, 6800, 2650, etc) and I have gone to all
> the
> makers of these fine old chips and none of them (Intel, Motorola, etc)
have
> anywhere
> on their sites for these old dears.
>
> What a shame!
I echo the sentiments of preserving the material (especially software and
documentation) on old processors and machines. In fact, I've been doing my
part to preserve the memory of one old machine - the IBM 1620.
I've posted here messages periodically but for over one year a team of 24
volunteers of The Computer Museum History Center have been working to
preserve the memory of the machine as well as restore the museum's 1620 to
working condition. The restoration effort is almost complete and the
machine is running well. We still have much work to do on archiving the
software (we have a substantial 300,000+ punched card library of 1620
software) and documentation (12 boxes of manuals and books) and personal
accounts; graphical 1620 simulator; and the website which pulls all of this
together.
Intellectual property issues can be difficult to deal with. For some old
machines the orginal company doesn't exist or has gone thru numerous
mergers. Finding the correct legal owner of the material can be a daunting
task but it is morally and legally important that legal permission be
acquired before material is posted on the web.
In the case of the IBM 1620 we were fortunate. Not only is IBM still in
business but they, at our request, have given the History Center legal
permission to reproduce all of the IBM copyright material on the IBM 1620 as
part of our historic preservation work. We are scanning into PDF format a
representative set of IBM 1620 reference manuals for inclusion on the site.
[We don't have the volunteer bandwith to include all of the manuals.] Most
of the software we have for the machine will also be available in
machine-readable form on the site for use with our IBM 1620 simulator.
However, we do not have legal permission yet from other publishers so
textbooks on the 1620 won't be available online.
We are indebted to IBM, our volunteers and other donors for their support of
our efforts to preserve this historic machine.
When the IBM 1620 website becomes available, more information will be posted
here.
Thanks,
Dave Babcock
Volunteer
The Computer Museum History Center
www.computerhistory.org
David K. Bryant
>BTW I am in the same predicament with information on the Motorola 88k
>RISC chips.
I have some 88k books that are destined for the dumpster
if you want them.
John Ferrell
The IBM Customer Engineers (us fix-it types) referred the the 1620 as the CADET.
It does not implement an ALU unit like most other machines but uses a table look
up algorithm. Hence Can't Add, Don't Even Try. I was not trained on this
system, so I cannot vouch for the accuracy of this.
There was a surge of concern at IBM that the public was perceiving the machines
as having human characteristics. There was an engineering change that required
us to remove the operator panels that used the term "Memory" and replace them
with panels with the word "Storage".
There were also engineering changes to change documentation that used the term
"Cripple" to the word "Disable".
Dave Babcock wrote:
--
John Ferrell in Julian NC, de W8CCW
Dixie Competition Products
6241 Phillippi Rd
Julian NC 27283
Phone: (336)685-9606 Fax: (336)685-9771
NSRCA 479 AMA 4190
"My Competition is Not My Enemy"
David M. Razler
| A little 1620 trivia:
| The IBM Customer Engineers (us fix-it types) referred the the 1620 as the CADET.
| It does not implement an ALU unit like most other machines but uses a table look
| up algorithm. Hence Can't Add, Don't Even Try. I was not trained on this
| system, so I cannot vouch for the accuracy of this.
|
The 1620 was *initially* called the Cadet by IBM because of its size and
target market (low price/small footprint)
Can't Add Doesn't Even Try was one of those fortuitous events.
Given its day, a lookup table was a decent way to save transistors and reduce
cost.
Eric Chomko
: Hi,
: I collect old processors (8080/85, 6800, 2650, etc) and I have gone to all
: the
: makers of these fine old chips and none of them (Intel, Motorola, etc) have
: anywhere
: on their sites for these old dears.
: What a shame!
Consider it a blessing. By them not having anything about them it makes
them a collectible. If governments that issued coins kept quantities of
all that they minted, then collecting old coins would not be a challenge.
I'd scarcely think of it as a hobby or even worthwhile getting the stuff
if I knew that the originators had plenty of whatever it is that they
make.
: Surely it wouldn't take much for them to put their old code and data on a
: server so us
: oldies can keep these systems running. Why can't I get a listing of the old
: MCS80
: monitor ROM, or information on 6800 or 2650.. etc?
Thats a business issue regarding the fact that its not profitable.
: You'd think they'd put some stuff on their websites. It's not like I'm
: asking for support.
: I just want some old software listing and specs.
It is the job of folks like you and me to do that. The same could be
expected from the US mint. They want you to buy the stuff they make today
and not what they made 100 years ago. That stuff is in the hands of a
third party (market, in the case of coins and stamps).
: These chips are their history and I think its pretty sad that they care
: little for it. Sure, I know
: they're all big companies now and look forward to more profits with newer
: technology, but,
: their early forays into processors (I think) should be well regarded and
: remembered and
: with a little bit of information people like me (and probably many others)
: could keep these
: old things going.
Again, think of it as a blessing. That 6800 chip in white ceramic with
gold center and pins is NOT Motorola's any longer. It belongs to the
public. And as many that have ended up in a landfill, I'd say that we
rather than the corporations are responsible for their preservation.
Likewise, you cannot expect the mint or the PO to perserve old coins and
stamps, or even to have them, and thank God for that, as, again, they
having everything would not make obtaining the stuff worthwhile.
: I'm not using them for work or business - just a hobby, but gosh it's
: frustrating to be stone-
: walled with the usual "sorry, that product is obsolete adn you're on your
: own - have a nice
: day" attitude.
Consider it a challenge, that will make it more worthwhile and
realize that you are not alone.
Think about how unfulling collecting pennies would be if every single kid
could get a 1909-S VDB?
Eric
: seeyuzz
: river
Paul Grayson
>Hi,
>
>I collect old processors (8080/85, 6800, 2650, etc) and I have gone to all
>the
>makers of these fine old chips and none of them (Intel, Motorola, etc) have
>anywhere
>on their sites for these old dears.
...SNIP...
I've had no end of problems finding the data sheets for a sound controller
chip that was produced less than 4 years ago. Specifications for earlier and
later chips from the same manufacturer are still available, but the
particulars for this are nowhere to be seen.
I managed to determine what I needed to do by a mixture of hard bit-bashing
and device driver reverse-engineering.
I've also had simillar problems getting hold of device drivers or
configuration tools for hardware of simillar vintage.
Manufacturers don't care, because these old products no longer generate
revenue.
--
Paul Grayson, Ripon, North Yorkshire, UK.
Bill Gates - makes Jeffrey Archer look like a honest man.
Robert Monaghan
(demagnetizing diskettes etc), and support resources that are no longer
readily available to individuals, but which can't be freely published on
the web due to legal issues, which in turn are hard to resolve due to
changes in ownership and identity and outright bankruptcy..
If mfgers are no longer supporting documentation etc. on chips they sold
in the last 4 years, what chance is there of getting data decades later?
I'd like to suggest an ARIEL approach; ARIEL is a Stanford University
project that links libraries so they can scan needed articles/info at a
member library that has the info, then transmit it compressed over the
internet to a recipient computer for local printing (using HP
scanner/printer software etc.). The various computer museums could provide
access to their info resources for a small copying fee and thereby make it
available to users who would otherwise have no way of getting access to it
except by plane trips to the site. Perhaps popular items, once scanned,
could be kept online, given the gigabytes of storage modest cost (a CDROM
jukebox?)? Makes $$ for the museum from their resources and making them
available while providing access online at modest cost to past
documentation, articles, software under research exemptions etc.?
Ric Werme
>If mfgers are no longer supporting documentation etc. on chips they sold
>in the last 4 years, what chance is there of getting data decades later?
There's a very good chance that most such docs produced four years ago
are not in a WWW friendly format. New things appear to be in PDF, I
suspect PDF docs will be much more available in the future, and I suspect
that PDF readers will be available for a long time. Sure, things like
PDP-10 RUNOFF are tough to get, but its source wasn't very portable.
Unix's nroff has been around nearly as long and is still readily available.
-Ric Werme
--
Ric Werme | we...@nospam.mediaone.net
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/werme | ^^^^^^^ delete
Al Kossow
<we...@nospam.mediaone.net> wrote:
> New things appear to be in PDF, I
> suspect PDF docs will be much more available in the future, and I suspect
> that PDF readers will be available for a long time.
Only if YOU save them before manufacturers remove the 'obsolete' data
from their web pages.
I have also noticed that data sheets which used to be freely available
are now only accessable if you get a password from some vendors.
Karthik Sheka
> In article <aX_l4.57724$zU5.7...@wbnws01.ne.mediaone.net>, Ric Werme
> <we...@nospam.mediaone.net> wrote:
>
> > New things appear to be in PDF, I
> > suspect PDF docs will be much more available in the future, and I suspect
> > that PDF readers will be available for a long time.
>
> Only if YOU save them before manufacturers remove the 'obsolete' data
> from their web pages.
In the spirit of this, over the last couple years I've been accumulating all
the info I can about my hardware. You never know when you need something
ASAP....
--
Karthik P. Sheka
K.P....@bigfoot.com
http://www.bigfoot.com/~K.P.Sheka/
charles
Eric Chomko wrote:
>
> river <ri...@zip.com.au> wrote:
> : Hi,
>
> : I collect old processors (8080/85, 6800, 2650, etc) and I have gone to all
> : the
> : makers of these fine old chips and none of them (Intel, Motorola, etc) have
> : anywhere
> : on their sites for these old dears.
>
> : What a shame!
>
> Consider it a blessing. By them not having anything about them it makes
> them a collectible. If governments that issued coins kept quantities of
> all that they minted, then collecting old coins would not be a challenge.
> I'd scarcely think of it as a hobby or even worthwhile getting the stuff
> if I knew that the originators had plenty of whatever it is that they
> make.
>
> : Surely it wouldn't take much for them to put their old code and data on a
> : server so us
> : oldies can keep these systems running. Why can't I get a listing of the old
> : MCS80
> : monitor ROM, or information on 6800 or 2650.. etc?
>
> Thats a business issue regarding the fact that its not profitable.
>
> Again, think of it as a blessing. That 6800 chip in white ceramic with
^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> gold center and pins is NOT Motorola's any longer. It belongs to the
When did they use WHITE ceramic?
I think the one that came with my old SWTPC had brown ceramic and I'm
sure the part number was something like XCM6800MCM on a gold cover
plate.
Charles
bkrrrrr
> Consider it a blessing. By them not having anything about them it makes
> them a collectible. If governments that issued coins kept quantities of
> all that they minted, then collecting old coins would not be a challenge.
> I'd scarcely think of it as a hobby or even worthwhile getting the stuff
> if I knew that the originators had plenty of whatever it is that they
> make.
CPU collecting! ;)
Here in my drawer I have
An '84 Intel 8087
An '84 Intel 8087-2 (counterstamped IBM)
An '82 AMD D8088
An '83 Intel P8088-2
An '80 Intel D8237A-5 (?)
A NEC D8088D-2 of unknown date
Some kind of Z80A
And a few fancy DEC piggyback chips
...
bkr :)
Charlie Gibbs
writes:
>Okay, what are the chips of white ceramic? 2708 EPROMs IIRC? Others?
>Smaller MOS circuits?
I think the original 8080 chip in my IMSAI was white ceramic.
I had to replace it, though -it treated all conditional returns
as unconditional. It worked perfectly in every other way, though.
Being the pack rat that I am, I probably still have it somewhere.
--
cgi...@sky.bus.com (Charlie Gibbs)
Remove the first period after the "at" sign to reply.
Eric Chomko
: Eric Chomko wrote:
: >
[...]
: > Again, think of it as a blessing. That 6800 chip in white ceramic with
: ^^^^^^^^^^^^^
: > gold center and pins is NOT Motorola's any longer. It belongs to the
: When did they use WHITE ceramic?
Am I confusing Intel with Motorla? CPUs with EPROMs?
: I think the one that came with my old SWTPC had brown ceramic and I'm
: sure the part number was something like XCM6800MCM on a gold cover
: plate.
Yes, more actually a purple color very similar in color to the CPUs they
make today and have so since abondoning the black plastic versions.
Okay, what are the chips of white ceramic? 2708 EPROMs IIRC? Others?
Smaller MOS circuits?
Eric
jchausler
charles wrote:
> Eric Chomko wrote:
> >
> > river <ri...@zip.com.au> wrote:
>
> > Again, think of it as a blessing. That 6800 chip in white ceramic with
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> > gold center and pins is NOT Motorola's any longer. It belongs to the
>
> When did they use WHITE ceramic?
> I think the one that came with my old SWTPC had brown ceramic and I'm
> sure the part number was something like XCM6800MCM on a gold cover
> plate.
>
> Charles
It was sort of a purple/brown if you can imagine that but that was not thefirst
6800's. They were gray ceramic and unlike the purple/brown ones
with nice square edges, the edges were rounded. I have one processor,
two 6820's (XC6820's), a couple 6810 128 byte RAMS and a couple
MIKBUG (6830) ROMS in this form factor. As to white ceramic 6800's
I have one 6800 and one 6810 from AMI in white. These were very thin
ceramic wafers with the pins attached to the top of the wafer and then
bent down around the outside edge. The chip itself is also mounted on
top of the wafer but is under a black cap about a 16th of an inch high in
the center of the wafer. The conducting paths from under the cap out
to the pins are also on the surface of the wafer and you can see them,
very pretty!!
Regards,
Chris Hausler
AN GETTO$;DUMP;RUN,ALGOL,TAPE
$$
gla...@glass2.lexington.ibm.com
>charles <cha...@maqs.net> wrote:
>
>
>: Eric Chomko wrote:
>: >
>[...]
>: ^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>: > gold center and pins is NOT Motorola's any longer. It belongs to the
>
>: When did they use WHITE ceramic?
>
>
>: sure the part number was something like XCM6800MCM on a gold cover
>: plate.
>
>make today and have so since abondoning the black plastic versions.
>
>Okay, what are the chips of white ceramic? 2708 EPROMs IIRC? Others?
>Smaller MOS circuits?
>
>Eric
There was an EPROM which predated the 2708. I think it had a 17xx number,
and it was in a white ceramic package, with a gold frame on the quartz
window. I think I even have one or two stashed away somewhere, but they're
too well hidden to find right now. Was it a 1702?
Dave
P.S. Standard Disclaimer: I work for them, but I don't speak for them.
Eric Chomko
: In <87daqk$e...@nnrp2.farm.idt.net>, Eric Chomko <cho...@IDT.NET> writes:
: >charles <cha...@maqs.net> wrote:
: >
: >: I think the one that came with my old SWTPC had brown ceramic and I'm
: >: sure the part number was something like XCM6800MCM on a gold cover
: >: plate.
: >
: >Yes, more actually a purple color very similar in color to the CPUs they
: >make today and have so since abondoning the black plastic versions.
: >
: >Okay, what are the chips of white ceramic? 2708 EPROMs IIRC? Others?
: >Smaller MOS circuits?
: >
: >Eric
: There was an EPROM which predated the 2708. I think it had a 17xx number,
: and it was in a white ceramic package, with a gold frame on the quartz
: window. I think I even have one or two stashed away somewhere, but they're
: too well hidden to find right now. Was it a 1702?
1702 was the 1/2 K EPROM from Intel.
Eric
: Dave
Al Kossow
> I think a better approach is to look at it from the Corp.'s viewpoint,
> namely that your request costs money to hire folks to post and maintain
> a web site with the various documentation and listings from which they get
> no benefits to explain why they are doing this to their stockholders.
>
> So how do you get them to want to do this? In two words... TAX DEDUCTIONS.
>
And exactly how do you set the worth for this material with the IRS?
In many cases, the company doesn't even HAVE a copy of the docs or software
any more, but there are copies that exist either in private collections or
in a museum's archives.
In some companies, it is corporate policy to destroy obsolete documentation to
keep from having discovery material available in legal cases, and as you said,
there is no profit to be made from any of this.
IMO, Supnik when he was at DEC set a wonderful example to the rest of the computer
industry releasing much of the pre PDP-11 DEC documentation and software
for non-commercial use.
I wish other corporations were so enlightened.
bill_h
>
> In <87daqk$e...@nnrp2.farm.idt.net>, Eric Chomko <cho...@IDT.NET> writes:
> >charles <cha...@maqs.net> wrote:
> >
> >
> >: >
> >[...]
> >: > Again, think of it as a blessing. That 6800 chip in white ceramic with
> >: ^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> >: > gold center and pins is NOT Motorola's any longer. It belongs to the
> >
> >: When did they use WHITE ceramic?
> >
> >Am I confusing Intel with Motorla? CPUs with EPROMs?
> >
> >: sure the part number was something like XCM6800MCM on a gold cover
> >: plate.
> >
> >Yes, more actually a purple color very similar in color to the CPUs they
> >make today and have so since abondoning the black plastic versions.
> >
> >Okay, what are the chips of white ceramic? 2708 EPROMs IIRC? Others?
> >Smaller MOS circuits?
> >
> >Eric
>
> There was an EPROM which predated the 2708. I think it had a 17xx number,
> and it was in a white ceramic package, with a gold frame on the quartz
> window. I think I even have one or two stashed away somewhere, but they're
> too well hidden to find right now. Was it a 1702?
I think it was 1972 that I scrounged a very early one - white
ceramic/gold
pins..... Don't think it was Intel, though. Had a weird number, that
didn't
mean anything re: the number of bits it held. Must be in my 'parts bin'
some
place. It ran on three (or maybe four) voltages, and building the
programmer
just seemed more trouble than the application I had in mind was worth: A
non-
random random noise generator - store a 1/3 octave filtered bit of A/D'd
psuedorandom noise, then 'sweep' it by changing the clock frequency it
was
replayed (D/A'd) or clocked out.
I'm sure the company making it is gone. May have had an MOS in it's
name.
Seems to me Intel didn't make the first EPROMS.....
Bill
Tucson, AZ
Eric Chomko
: On Thu, 03 Feb 2000 19:06:45 -0500, bkrrrrr <bea...@llama.pilz.cack> wrote:
[...]
: > CPU collecting! ;)
: >
: >Here in my drawer I have
: >An '84 Intel 8087
: >An '84 Intel 8087-2 (counterstamped IBM)
: >An '82 AMD D8088
: >An '83 Intel P8088-2
: >An '80 Intel D8237A-5 (?)
: >A NEC D8088D-2 of unknown date
: >Some kind of Z80A
: >And a few fancy DEC piggyback chips
: >...
: Just dug out of draw...
: One Malasian 2708 in white ceramic with square gold surround over circular
: window. Manufacture unknown as it has tearable labels on it...
: So there is something in white...
I'll trade you a Sammy Sosa and a Mark McGwire for it. :)
Eric
Eric Chomko
: gla...@glass2.lexington.ibm.com wrote:
[...]
: Seems to me Intel didn't make the first EPROMS.....
No shit? I thought that they did. I'll have to research it.
Eric
: Bill
: Tucson, AZ
Future-Bots
1702A Eprom was made by National, AMD, and Intel.
Dan M.
--
Future-Bot Components Phone/Fax (561) 575-1487
106 Commerce way, A8 http://www.futurebots.com
Jupiter, Fl. 33458 USA Email:fub...@bellsouth.net
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Robotic and Electronic Components for the Hobbyist and Professional..
Herodin
I also like to collect CPU's
* 8087
* 80287 (squaremodel)
* 80186 siemens
* 80286-10
* 80286-16
* Z80 (6 pieces)
* 80386Dx-33
* 80486Dlc-33
But what now, no boards for the Z80. No boards for the 80186.
So, what can i do besides 'selling' them or exploit them for lease :)
I'm also interested in hardware data. Does anybody know or have manuals on the
original IBM Stuff : Drives, memory, i/o cards..etc..
Large AS/400 Drives... 8" Fdd diskunit system (CPT)
H'
river
<gla...@glass2.lexington.ibm.com> wrote in message
news:87emhu$1b0e$2...@ausnews.austin.ibm.com...
> In <87daqk$e...@nnrp2.farm.idt.net>, Eric Chomko <cho...@IDT.NET> writes:
> >charles <cha...@maqs.net> wrote:
> >
> >
> >: Eric Chomko wrote:
> >: >
> >[...]
> >: > Again, think of it as a blessing. That 6800 chip in white ceramic
with
> >: ^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> >: > gold center and pins is NOT Motorola's any longer. It belongs to the
> >
> >: When did they use WHITE ceramic?
> >
> >Am I confusing Intel with Motorla? CPUs with EPROMs?
> >
> >: I think the one that came with my old SWTPC had brown ceramic and I'm
> >: sure the part number was something like XCM6800MCM on a gold cover
> >: plate.
> >
> >Yes, more actually a purple color very similar in color to the CPUs they
> >make today and have so since abondoning the black plastic versions.
> >
> >Okay, what are the chips of white ceramic? 2708 EPROMs IIRC? Others?
> >Smaller MOS circuits?
> >
> >Eric
>
8080
also came in white, with a gold top, and so did the 2650 and the early sc/mp
processors.
the signetics pipbug monitor was also packaged in white ceramic. the 8157?
rom/io
chip for the 8085 also came in white. sorta like whitegoods for computing!
> There was an EPROM which predated the 2708. I think it had a 17xx number,
> and it was in a white ceramic package, with a gold frame on the quartz
> window. I think I even have one or two stashed away somewhere, but
they're
> too well hidden to find right now. Was it a 1702?
>
Matt J. McCullar
>
> >
>
> > Again, think of it as a blessing. That 6800 chip in white ceramic with
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> > gold center and pins is NOT Motorola's any longer. It belongs to the
>
> When did they use WHITE ceramic?
I often work on old machine-tool-controlling computer systems that use
the 6800, and occasionally I'll find one with a white ceramic chip on
it. These look neat, because if you hold them up to the light you can
actually see the internal connections between the chip pins and the
actual microprocessor guts (about the size of your little fingernail).
These white ceramic chips are far more delicate than their plastic DIP
descendants, though, and they are VERY easy to chip or even break.
I've also seen white ceramic Z80s and 6502s. I recall seeing a white
ceramic 6502 on a VERY old Atari arcade video game.
I recently worked on a machine tool controller board made by Allen
Bradley that used one of the very first 16-bit microprocessors, made by
Texas Instruments. It's a monstrous DIP chip, and I forget how many
pins it had. But being made of thin, white ceramic, you had to lift it
out with two screwdrivers -- one from each end -- otherwise, it'll
snap.
I've seen plenty of w/c Intel 2708 EPROMs, too. T.I. used similar
packaging in old EPROMs.
Matt J. McCullar
Arlington, TX
charles
The purple (or brown) chips were very fragile also I remember breaking
the one that came with my SWTPC N6800 when I tried to put it in the
"zero insertion force socket" they provided, had to glue the cover back
on to hold it together.
A replacement was listed as $300 and the one I got with the kit was
marked XCM rather than MCM so was probably a prototype one.
Luckily it worked for a year or so until the prices dropped and I
could afford to replace it.
I ordered the kit in 1975 and got it late 75 or early 80 (I have the
brochure around here someplace and I marked the order date on it.
Charles
Eric Chomko
[...]
: The purple (or brown) chips were very fragile also I remember breaking
: the one that came with my SWTPC N6800 when I tried to put it in the
: "zero insertion force socket" they provided, had to glue the cover back
: on to hold it together.
: A replacement was listed as $300 and the one I got with the kit was
: marked XCM rather than MCM so was probably a prototype one.
: Luckily it worked for a year or so until the prices dropped and I
: could afford to replace it.
: I ordered the kit in 1975 and got it late 75 or early 80 (I have the
: brochure around here someplace and I marked the order date on it.
Five years for delivery?! Wow, I ordered mine in Dec. 76 and got it early
Spring 77, assembled.
And yes those chips were fragile. But I really don't think that those 40
pin sockets were zero insertion force, as I didn't see that term in until
well into the 1980s
Eric
:
: Charles
Jerry Bauer
Matt J. McCullar <mccu...@flash.net> wrote:
>charles wrote:
>>
>> Eric Chomko wrote:
>> >
>> > river <ri...@zip.com.au> wrote:
>> > : Hi,
>>
>> >
>>
>> > Again, think of it as a blessing. That 6800 chip in white ceramic with
>> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>> > gold center and pins is NOT Motorola's any longer. It belongs to the
>>
>> When did they use WHITE ceramic?
>
>I often work on old machine-tool-controlling computer systems that use
>the 6800, and occasionally I'll find one with a white ceramic chip on
>it. These look neat, because if you hold them up to the light you can
>actually see the internal connections between the chip pins and the
>actual microprocessor guts (about the size of your little fingernail).
>These white ceramic chips are far more delicate than their plastic DIP
>descendants, though, and they are VERY easy to chip or even break.
>
'Way back in the olden days[1] I worked for a company that
second-sourced the 6800 uP family. Within some variation of the
semiconductor process parameters, some chips could be very
light-sensitive. Wafer-sorting (testing of chips while they were
still part of a wafer) had to be done under a hood, and chips in white
ceramic packages could still be affected by light. Dark ceramic and
plastic cured this.
Early plastic packages were a problem because the thermal expansion of
the plastic had to closely match that of the lead frame (the part that
the die is attached to, it includes the IC's "legs"). They also had
greater thermal resistance, so heat from the die had to be conducted
primarily by the lead frame. In a ceramic packagem the ceramic
substrate acted as a radiator.
>I've also seen white ceramic Z80s and 6502s. I recall seeing a white
>ceramic 6502 on a VERY old Atari arcade video game.
>
>I recently worked on a machine tool controller board made by Allen
>Bradley that used one of the very first 16-bit microprocessors, made by
>Texas Instruments. It's a monstrous DIP chip, and I forget how many
>pins it had. But being made of thin, white ceramic, you had to lift it
>out with two screwdrivers -- one from each end -- otherwise, it'll
>snap.
>
That would be the 64-pin TI9900, an odd and interesting design. How
did you like the four-phase non-overlapping controlled-voltage clocks?
>I've seen plenty of w/c Intel 2708 EPROMs, too. T.I. used similar
>packaging in old EPROMs.
>
Jerry Randal Bauer
[1] ... through the snow, uphill both ways, etc.
bill_h
>
> charles <cha...@maqs.net> wrote:
> [...]
>
> : The purple (or brown) chips were very fragile also I remember breaking
> : the one that came with my SWTPC N6800 when I tried to put it in the
> : "zero insertion force socket" they provided, had to glue the cover back
> : on to hold it together.
> And yes those chips were fragile. But I really don't think that those 40
> pin sockets were zero insertion force, as I didn't see that term in until
> well into the 1980s
''Zero Insertion Force'' sockets have a little lever or some other
device to OPEN the socket holes. About the only way to damage a chip
inserting it into one is to try to jam it in with the holes in the
CLOSED position. Or, having REALLY badly bent pin(s).
They were being used on IC testers in the late 60's, and I've got a 1977
EPROM programmer that uses them. There were also sockets with very LOW
insertion force - they had sort of oversized holes, and very lightly
sprung (usually gold plated) contacts.
I've got a TI 9900 chip, must be about 64 pins, I'm afraid to even try
removing from it's socket (on a Harris computer board of some sort).
It's white ceramic/gold, and looks very fragile. I was thinking one
day I might just start grinding away the socket with a Dremel.......
Bill
Tucson, AZ
charles
This so called ZIF socket had a square button in the center which
supposedly closed the pins when pressed down by the I.C. and I pressed
the ends down trying to seat it. Been 25 or so years but I remember
breaking it and finding that replacement would cost almost as much as
the whole kit.
Charles
Don't know how I managed to type 80 for 76, probably have some of
those old radioactive memory chips still installed in my brain.
Matt J. McCullar
> That would be the 64-pin TI9900, an odd and interesting design. How
> did you like the four-phase non-overlapping controlled-voltage clocks?
Whoever dreamed up that scheme should have been forced to listen to
"It's a Small World" for the rest of his life. :)
Yep, that's the chip, all right. Monstrous thing. I ran into a
descendant of this chip a few months ago in an strange video monitor
made by Fluke, called an Infotouch Display. It was sort of a squashed
RS-232 data terminal with a touch screen. It used a TI99xx that is WAY
no longer available, and Fluke doesn't even support the darned product
anymore, either. We ended up swapping out the entire motherboard with a
weird upgrade.
Gimme a 6502 or a Z-80, any day!
Matt J. McCullar, KJ5BA
Arlington, TX