Light a candle (fwd)
GLBTSSS
Forwarded by Request
Please Post Widely
HOW CAN YOU HELP?:
__________________________________________________
Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help?
Donate cash, emergency relief information
http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/
Friday Night at 7:00 p.m. EST step out of your door, stop your car, or
step out of your establishment and light a candle. We will show the
world that Americans are strong and united together against terrorism.
Please pass this to everyone on your e-mail list. We need to reach
everyone across the United States quickly.
The message: WE STAND UNITED - WE WILL NOT TOLERATE TERRORISM!
Thank you.
HOW CAN YOU HELP?:
__________________________________________________
Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help?
Donate cash, emergency relief information
http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/
_________________________________________________________________
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On Thu, 13 Sep 2001, Natalie Davis wrote:
> No, Stephen.
>
> The choice isn't Western nations or The Terrorists.
>
> The choice is War or Peace.
>
> I choose peace.
>
> And I do see the Chief's point.
>
> I'll light a candle some other time... for peace, for all those so brutally
> killed, including two beloved friends in NY and one in DC. But in good
> conscience, I can not be in solidarity with those who are not in solidarity
> with the concepts of peace, justice, and equality for all, and opposed to
> war and violence in all forms.
>
> --
> This is message #743.
> **********
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> (This may fail if your address has changed since you signed
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>
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> a topic that interests you, see <http://www.queernet.org> for details.
>
--
This is message #764.
Chief Thracian
>The message: WE STAND UNITED - WE WILL
>NOT TOLERATE TERRORISM!
No, I'm not lighting a candle. I cannot honsestly support our nation,
which remains a terrorist force against every gay citizen who is
unfortunate enough to live here (U.S.A.). For me, it's like the Jews
standing up to defend Hitler against enemies of the
state...inconceivable, pathetic, ludicrous.
---
Hail Athenia, brave new gay nation!
Zeke Krahlin, Chief Thracian
http://surf.to/gaybible
--
This is message #725.
D Stephen Heersink
>No, I'm not lighting a candle. I cannot honsestly support our nation,
>which remains a terrorist force against every gay citizen who is
>unfortunate enough to live here (U.S.A.). For me, it's like the Jews
>standing up to defend Hitler against enemies of the
>state...inconceivable, pathetic, ludicrous.
I suppose the Chief can support our adversaries, and continue to
disabuse the memory of the Holocaust as he continues one of his
mindless and empty juxtapositions. The U.S. may not be a perfect
nation (and we know it has many ways in which to improve, something
that must be said of all nations), but, looking at the choice between
Western Civilization as we know it now and as it is progressing: We do
have a choice! Voice support for the U.S. and Western Systems of
democratic capitalism OR support its worldwide opponents, the
theocratic Islamic and Christian fundamentalists who hate progress.
That's how the fight is arrayed, Chief. Those are the choices. You're
free to pick your friends, even if you insist on a misappropriation of
Nazi Germany. You may not chose the hope that still exists in the
West, and may opt for our opponents. For me, I'll stand with the U.S.
and our Western System of democratic capitalism with most of the
Western World. At least we're free to be gay in THIS world; you'd have
no hope, literally no life, in the OTHER world. These are the two real
choices. Everything else is a footnote.
My candles are lit.
________________________
D. Stephen Heersink
San Francisco
dsh...@worldnet.att.net
--
This is message #739.
Natalie Davis
The choice isn't Western nations or The Terrorists.
The choice is War or Peace.
I choose peace.
And I do see the Chief's point.
I'll light a candle some other time... for peace, for all those so brutally
killed, including two beloved friends in NY and one in DC. But in good
conscience, I can not be in solidarity with those who are not in solidarity
with the concepts of peace, justice, and equality for all, and opposed to
war and violence in all forms.
--
This is message #743.
Richard
> The choice isn't Western nations or The Terrorists.
>
> The choice is War or Peace.
>
> I choose peace.
Natalie, I too choose peace. I want to return to peace. I know that
long lasting peace is based on justice.
But we ain't there.
It takes two to fight or war on each other. And someone has to strike
the first blow.
On Tuesday September 11, 2001, someone struck that first blow. People
are dead, property is destroyed, our country's psyche is forever shaken
and changed.
With that first blow, peace disappeared. I do not like it. I sincerely
regret it. But peace died as the WTC fell and the Pentagon crumbled.
The choice is not war or peace.
The choice is to surrender or to fight back.
No matter what happens, the USA is going to be significantly different
in ways we cannot yet determine. Who could anyone have predicted USA in
the 1950's on Pearl Harbor Day? How could JFK or LBJ have imagined the
1960's as they took us into Vietnam? We are changed and time will teach
us what that change means.
This conflict is going to be longer and larger than most anyone has yet
grasped. This fight is going to re-write the map of the Middle East.
this conflict is going to be carried to South America. We are going to
drill for oil in Alaska, but it won't be enough. Rationing will have to
occur. And with rationing and fear comes a USA identity card that we
will all carry with us at all times. Coffee (and Starbucks) will grow
scarce.
And we have not taken our greatest hits as a country yet. More terror
is definitely to come in this struggle for supremacy of ideals, for
survival of a way of life.
And powerful, wealthy, and influential people in the USA are going to
call for stringent security measures that include attacks on gays and
lesbians at law. Falwell and Robertson are mad, they are insane, they
are irresponsible - BUT they are powerful, wealthy, and influential.
Any President of any party would be foolish not to return their phone
call.
The Internet itself will be deeply affected in ways we cannot imagine.
I miss peace. I deeply regret the attack upon the USA. But our choice
is NOT war vs peace. Too late for that. Our choice is to defend
ourselves and our loved ones or to surrender to terrorists and their
political-economic agendas.
I do not want to be a gay man in an Islamic controlled state. I see too
clearly the Egyptian gay men in court as we type.
Peace died on Tuesday September 11, 2001. The world is changed. And
either Western Democracies will dominate the world at the end of this
struggle or some other ideology will. For me and mine, I want the
Western Democracies to win.
--
This is message #767.
Chief Thracian
<dsh...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>You may not chose the hope that still exists in the
>West, and may opt for our opponents.
Your idiotic ranting made no sense. Don't you realize how ridiculous
your sound--like some patriotic, flag-waving Mom-n-apple-pie militia
fanatic?
I did not say we should side with any enemy...I said, we should take
no sides, at all. This is not going to turn out to be a choice between
Western Civilization and Islamic Zealotry. Actually, the choice will
be this: Gay friendly or not. And I stand on the side of "gay
friendly", obviously. You would sacrifice our freedom by supporting a
homophobic regime that bears little semblance to freedom, democracy,
or compassion: Amerika.
As Natalie pointed out so aptly: we cannot in good conscience, choose
any side that evokes violent scenarios out of irrational, knee-jerk
bully emotions. Even if it is our own gov't guilty of this. I guess we
can be compared to those peaceniks who evaded the draft during the
Vietnam War. Many vilified us, and some of us were imprisoned as a
result. But we knew we were right, all along.
---
Hail Athenia, brave new gay nation!
Zeke Krahlin, Chief Thracian
http://surf.to/gaybible
--
This is message #753.
break
volunteer. However, when we withdrew we allowed the cambodian genocide
to take palce. How about the pro gay people who were killed by the
murderers who bombed the trade center. The attack was against the
american people not the american government whether that was the intention
or not. Andy xy
--
This is message #765.
Chief Thracian
wrote:
>I do not want to be a gay man in an Islamic controlled state.
>I see too clearly the Egyptian gay men in court as we type.
But what a horrid choice to make: to prefer Amerika, the lesser of the
evils, where gays are terrorized 24/7 by our own fanatics who overrun
this nation.
For me, we have a third choice: wrest a new nation amid the turmoil to
come, where gays find true sanctuary and freedom. The time is ripening
for such an action; we need only be patient a little more, then
pounce!
---
Hail Athenia, brave new gay nation!
Zeke Krahlin, Chief Thracian
http://surf.to/gaybible
--
This is message #787.
Sean Robertson
> sacrifice my life for Amerika.
Perhaps you've forgotten the gay congressmen, or the efforts to pass ENDA,
or the civil union laws in Vermont. Some people _are_ working for our
rights, slowly but surely. By saying what you've said above, you might as
well just be telling all of those people to stuff it.
--
This is message #788.
Chief Thracian
<grog...@cutter.rexx.com> wrote:
>If you didn't want to fight that's fine. The army should have been
>volunteer. However, when we withdrew we allowed the cambodian genocide
>to take palce. How about the pro gay people who were killed by the
>murderers who bombed the trade center. The attack was against the
>american people not the american government whether that was the intention
>or not. Andy xy
Gays are not recognized as part of Amerika. Therefore, I refuse to
sacrifice my life for Amerika.
---
Hail Athenia, brave new gay nation!
Zeke Krahlin, Chief Thracian
http://surf.to/gaybible
--
This is message #786.
Chief Thracian
<webolu...@webolutionary.com> wrote:
>Perhaps you've forgotten the gay congressmen, or the efforts to pass ENDA,
>or the civil union laws in Vermont. Some people _are_ working for our
>rights, slowly but surely. By saying what you've said above, you might as
>well just be telling all of those people to stuff it.
Sure. Just as many leaders of the 13 Colonies spoke eloquently for
remaining subject to our British overlords. Eventually, however, their
continued pleas became fruitless, and only served to point out the
arrogance of King George...thus fomenting a revolution.
Those courageous gay spokespeople whom you refer to, prove to us the
terrible arrogance Amerika shows whenever we LGBT's speak out for our
rights. I would never tell them to stuff it: I would thank them for
highlighting the insurmountable homophobia that infects our nation.
The contrast is now too brightly evident, as to merit any further
attempts at compromise and reason, and acceptance.
---begin quote from a world-celebrated manifesto:
But when a long train of abuses and usurpations pursuing invariably
the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute
Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such
Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. Such
has been the patient suffrance of these Colonies; and such is now the
necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of
Government.
---end of quote
You are free to work within the system, brave little slave to our
heterocentric masters. But I don't believe you will, in the long run.
I believe you'll also seek refuge in Athenia, once the homophobic
feces hits the propellers in your direction.
---
I am Cerberus who guards the gates of hell,
protecting my gay pups from the wrath that
shall soon pour fourth from these gates.
I am Damien, The Werewolf.
---
http://surf.to/gaybible
--
This is message #797.
D Stephen Heersink
concerns her is either war or peace. She is for peace, suggesting that
anyone who takes an alternative view of for war. This reaction is
tragically naive and errs as sophistry which reduces a larger set of
complex issues into simplistic dichotomy. This is why I call her
appostion mindless.
Another issue beyond war and peace is good versus evil. The slaughter
of innocent people is an evil act. Another issue is that of justice or
lack of justice. Taking innocent life is the worst form of injustice.
Another issue is courage or cowardice. What the terrorists did was
completely marked by cowardice, and to slaughter the innocent people
for some fanatic religious cause is a reck less act of cowardice.
Another issue is equality and inequality . . . hope versus despair,
freedom and servitude . . . &c.
To reduce a complex set of affairs to a single dichotomy is indeed
mindless, without any ad hominem intended. Clearly, temperance,
justice, equality, freedom, liberty, dignity, the right to life, are
but a few of the complex set of issues evoked by the events of
Tuesday's terrorism. To reduce all this complexity it to a false sense
of single parity is perhaps well-intentioned, but mindless
nonetheless.
________________________
D. Stephen Heersink
San Francisco
dsh...@worldnet.att.net
--
This is message #798.
Troy Westerberg
world in general and the U.S. in particular is incredibly shaken by what's
happened. People deal with tragedy in their own ways. I can understand on
a certain level where Natalie is coming from. I don't totally agree with
her, but I did sign the petition that she sent a link for the other day.
I want to see justice done. And I'd like to see an end to the mindset that
brings about such hatred and disrespect for human life. If that means that
there will be more death and destruction, I can live with that. But a war
probably won't bring about justice. Hundreds of millions of lives lost
won't make up for the losses that the U.S. has suffered. Striking out
wildly won't heal anything. Carefully reasoned retaliation and an address
to the root causes of a thing like this will serve everyone best in the long
run.
It seems to me that the human race is standing on the edge of apocalypse and
trying to decide whether to jump or not. Please don't. This feedback loop
of violence has to stop at some point. Which point is that going to be?
Love and strength to you all,
Troy
--
This is message #803.