Fw: [GN] Targeting Sacred Spaces
Troy Westerberg
T.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Troy Westerberg" <twe...@euronet.nl>
To: "Richard" <sep...@pacbell.net>
Sent: Sunday, May 06, 2001 4:18 PM
Subject: Re: [GN] Targeting Sacred Spaces
>
> Absolutely, conversion of the non-believer is at the core of christianity.
> That bothers you, I see. It's just white noise to me. It's annoying, but
> just part of the rest of the noise pollution.
>
> I can see that the U.S. is moving, though, in the direction of theocracy.
> Perhaps one day, it'll be against the law to tune out the white noise. At
> that point, non-violent tactics won't be an option anymore. It just seems
> to me that for gay people to escalate the culture war is only going to
work
> against us.
>
> I don't preach tolerance alone. I also preach an end to special interest
> groups buying influence in government. Religion can't help but win that
way
> since they have nearly infinite financial resources (take a look at the
> Roman Catholic and Mormon churches, for example). I preach a society of
> constitutionally guaranteed tolerance with preference given to none on a
> level playing field.
>
> Troy Westerberg
> Ex-Mormon
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Richard" <sep...@pacbell.net>
> Cc: <gay...@QueerNet.ORG>
> Sent: Sunday, May 06, 2001 3:54 PM
> Subject: Re: [GN] Targeting Sacred Spaces
>
>
> > No Troy, I am afraid it does not Christian to me at all. Wiccan or
> > Buddhist perhaps, but not christian. At the center of the christian
> > faith is the exhortation to evangelize the unbeliever. The believers go
> > to heaven and the unbelievers go to the lake of fire that is never
> > quenched. So it is essential for the christian to bring the "good news"
> > to the unbeliever. Live and let live and tolerance is not possible
> > within the theology of traditional christianity. (Note: I have been a
> > faithful methodist and a converted roman catholic (parish council,
> > liturgy committee, the whole ball of wax) in my time. I quit the lot of
> > it when the bishop sent me the most hateful possible letter annulling my
> > heterosexual marriage AND asked me to pay $250 for the lessons of his
> > judgment upon me.)
> >
> > But tolerance, respect and peace are not part and parcel of
> > Christianity. Ask a Baptist about tolerance of Roman Catholics, not to
> > mention queers. Ask a Mormon about tolerance of non-Mormans, not to
> > mention queers. Ask the Religious Reich if God should be left out of
> > government and laws, not to mention schools.
> >
> > And at this stage in my life, "tolerance" is not acceptable to me. At
> > the core of tolerance is the deeply beheld belief that the one who
> > tolerates is better than the one being tolerated. I have no desire to
> > either tolerate or accept or live-and-let-live with those who use their
> > sacred spaces to raise funds to use in the political or non-sacred
> > institutions to bash and hurt queers. My desire is to block, stop,
> > erase their ability to hurt me and other queers.
> >
> > One of the most interesting exercises I have recently pursued is to take
> > the quizzes at the Landover Baptist Church and at Fred Phellp's Westover
> > Baptist church and the Betty Bowers sites online. Rather interesting in
> > their presentation of biblical teachings on slavery, women, queers, and
> > disobedient children. I am fully aware modern theologians explaining
> > away many of the Old Testament and the gospels and the Pauline letters
> > judgments on slavery, women, queers and other biblical teachings. I
> > have to admit that at this stage in my life, I think that Fred Phellp's
> > is probably right in suggesting that God Hates Fags based on the bible.
> > I also think the Landover Baptist teachings on the subservience of women
> > is probably correct based on biblical teachings - Gospel and Pauline
> > and Old Testament. Anyway, both these sites are interesting regardless
> > of your beliefs.
> >
> > Richard Seward
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Richard
funding of ANY political activity including lobbying is a worthy
objective (as long as my particular special interests are excluded for
the law - grin)
But as to the "white noise." I may disagree with you, though it is
thought provoking. The "white noise" of christian anti-rhetoric is the
background music for murder of both queer and wiccan suicide and
murder. I am not sure we can afford to tune it out.
Do you see a connection between evangelical belief, anti-queer preaching
and prophecy and queer bashing?
Troy Westerberg
Nor do I forgive them. I think of the damage done just to me and can't even
comprehend the suffering when that's multiplied by billions. I just believe
that the best way to fight religion is to tune it out - nothing bugs an
evangelical christian more.
It's a no-win situation with religion. I accused my mother of intolerance
during one tear-soaked, angry, theological argument. She was deeply
wounded - which I'm sure was my intention. I realized that she was so into
her religious beliefs that she knew she was doing the right thing. I think
Natalie's assertion that religious people really can't see the damage
they're doing was spot-on. Religion is a real paradox. I think religion
brings great comfort to a lot of people. At the same time, the actions of
some religious people cause chaos and pain. In my personal case, it's that
I live an ocean and a continent away from my parents. I see them very
rarely and I can't really tell them why without reopening this painful
family melodrama. Then there's the damage done on a large scale by the
religious organizations themselves. It makes the Middle Ages seem not so
far in the past.
I do believe, though, that churches should lose their tax-exempt status. Or
that we should all get tax-exempt status. (I guess the latter is closer to
my political beliefs.) Churches have become political instruments in the
United States. The price of participating in politics should be taxes.
Troy Westerberg
----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard" <sep...@pacbell.net>
To: "Troy Westerberg" <twe...@euronet.nl>
Cc: <gay...@QueerNet.ORG>
Sent: Sunday, May 06, 2001 4:31 PM
Subject: Re: Fw: [GN] Targeting Sacred Spaces
> I have to agree with you that the elimination of all special interest
> funding of ANY political activity including lobbying is a worthy
> objective (as long as my particular special interests are excluded for
> the law - grin)
>
> But as to the "white noise." I may disagree with you, though it is
> thought provoking. The "white noise" of christian anti-rhetoric is the
> background music for murder of both queer and wiccan suicide and
> murder. I am not sure we can afford to tune it out.
>
> Do you see a connection between evangelical belief, anti-queer preaching
> and prophecy and queer bashing?
>
www.usQueers.com
discussion have once again voiced the majority opinion that targeting
"churches," etc., would be counter-productive.
Well what would be acceptable "targets" then, for serious actions? It seems
that lately all that happens is so diluted and co-opted as to be useless. It
seems the only thing left are Pride parades, which are nowadays nothing more
than commercial ventures -- fun for some, but useless as protest actions.
Example: an old white Republican bastard in Florida, state Rep. Allen
Trovillion (R-Winter Park), chewed out some teen Queers who were there to
lobby their legislators to address the big problem of bullying of all sorts
in public schools. In their particular instance, they wanted to discuss
their personal experiences as Queer teens in public schools. The old white
Republican bastard told them they were going to hell and taking the rest of
the country with them, reducing one teenaged male to tears. It hit the news
nationwide for an instant, and then vanished.
"God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah, and he is going to destroy you and a lot
of others."
One 19-year-old youth from Boca Raton, told the old white Republican bastard
that classmates targeted him because of his sexual orientation. School
administrators suspended the attackers for only one day, then humiliated
Gentile by suggesting he provoked the violence by being "too openly gay."
The old white Republican bastard responded to Gentile's story by saying,
"You have to suffer the consequences of your actions."
"You are going to cause the downfall of this country which was built on
Christian principals."
Equality Florida does good work but their response to this was to ask "all
Floridians to express their outrage by contacting Governor Bush at
850-488-4441 and asking him to show desperately needed leadership in
condemning the bigoted actions of a callous legislator."
Surprise, surprise, it didn't happen. Surprise, surprise, the other Gov.
Bush didn't give a shit about some Queer teens being cut down by the hired
help in the state's capitol building.
The old white Republican bastard and his home should be picketed daily,
until he apologizes or dies, right?
Allen Trovillion, 74
Florida State Representative (R- Winter Park)
Capitol Office: Room 210 House Office Building
402 S. Monroe St, Tallahassee FL 32399-1300
Phone: (850)488-0660
District Office: 1360 Palmetto Ave, Winter Park FL 32789-4916;
Phone: (407)623-1355; SUNCOM: 334-1355
Email: trovilli...@leg.state.fl.us
scoutmaster, serves as the chair of the Florida State Tourism Committee
----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard" <sep...@pacbell.net>
To: "Troy Westerberg" <twe...@euronet.nl>
Cc: <gay...@QueerNet.ORG>
Sent: Sunday, May 06, 2001 7:31 AM
Subject: Re: Fw: [GN] Targeting Sacred Spaces
> I have to agree with you that the elimination of all special interest
> funding of ANY political activity including lobbying is a worthy
> objective (as long as my particular special interests are excluded for
> the law - grin)
>
> But as to the "white noise." I may disagree with you, though it is
> thought provoking. The "white noise" of christian anti-rhetoric is the
> background music for murder of both queer and wiccan suicide and
> murder. I am not sure we can afford to tune it out.
>
> Do you see a connection between evangelical belief, anti-queer preaching
> and prophecy and queer bashing?
>
Troy Westerberg
gay people have it so good that they don't feel the need to rise up en masse
and confront the system that is so oppressing them. Demonstration is, after
all a part of the philosophy of non-violence. Maybe the majority of
American gay people don't feel oppressed. Give it time... If the right has
it's way - they'll feel oppressed, but by then it may be too late.
I recognized that problem. Packed up my belongings. And left. Of course,
if what I think might happen actually happens, I won't be safe here in
Europe either.
Of course, I didn't just leave because of the gay rights situation. I also
left because of the increasing lack of freedom of speech, government without
representation, lack of privacy, freedom FROM religion, a media-cracy (or is
that mediocracy?), taxation without benefit, out of control crime, gun
possession, lack of worker's rights, corruption, and general social
insecurity. Put a few glasses of wine in me and I'll come up with some
more.
Acceptable targets? Try the federal government, try the people themselves.
Disrupt traffic, block shipping lanes, wreck total havoc on the order that
people take for granted. Those things get attention. But, good luck trying
to get enough people to go along with you. Call a meeting of world trade
leaders and you'll be up to your eyeballs in weirdos to accomplish your
goals. Try to get some gay people to challenge the order and you get ....
zippo.
Troy Westerberg
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Richard" <sep...@pacbell.net>
> To: "Troy Westerberg" <twe...@euronet.nl>
> Cc: <gay...@QueerNet.ORG>
> Sent: Sunday, May 06, 2001 7:31 AM
> Subject: Re: Fw: [GN] Targeting Sacred Spaces
>
>
> > I have to agree with you that the elimination of all special interest
> > funding of ANY political activity including lobbying is a worthy
> > objective (as long as my particular special interests are excluded for
> > the law - grin)
> >
> > But as to the "white noise." I may disagree with you, though it is
> > thought provoking. The "white noise" of christian anti-rhetoric is the
> > background music for murder of both queer and wiccan suicide and
> > murder. I am not sure we can afford to tune it out.
> >
> > Do you see a connection between evangelical belief, anti-queer preaching
> > and prophecy and queer bashing?
> >
Natalie Davis
>I certainly do not deny the atrocities committed in the name of religion.
>Nor do I forgive them. I think of the damage done just to me and can't even
>comprehend the suffering when that's multiplied by billions. I just believe
>that the best way to fight religion is to tune it out - nothing bugs an
>evangelical christian more.
That's the truth! However, it behooves us, I think, not to necessarily tune
out the christians who agree with us--and there are more than you might
think--and the ones who can be persuaded. There are more of them than you
might think, too. The only way to figure out who is who is to talk--and
listen--to them.
>It's a no-win situation with religion. I accused my mother of intolerance
>during one tear-soaked, angry, theological argument. She was deeply
>wounded - which I'm sure was my intention. I realized that she was so into
>her religious beliefs that she knew she was doing the right thing. I think
>Natalie's assertion that religious people really can't see the damage
>they're doing was spot-on.
Thanks. You've reminded me of my conversation with my mom about SSM. She
said glbts should have everything that hets have, but that marriage is only
a man and a woman. I started off with, "That puts you about two steps away
from Fred Phelps," and she lost it. We both yelled and cried and,
ultimately, decided it was best to table the discussion before it went so
far that we couldn't talk to each other. Months later, I was at her house
when a newscast brought up Vermont and civil unions being passed. My mom
listened and said, "Sounds like separate but equal to me." I screamed, "YOU
SEE! YOU SEE!" I felt like freakin' Annie Sullivan hearing Helen Keller
croak, "Wah wah!" It took time, but she *finally* grokked it. Some of these
people CAN be changed.
> Religion is a real paradox. I think religion
>brings great comfort to a lot of people. At the same time, the actions of
>some religious people cause chaos and pain. In my personal case, it's that
>I live an ocean and a continent away from my parents. I see them very
>rarely and I can't really tell them why without reopening this painful
>family melodrama. Then there's the damage done on a large scale by the
>religious organizations themselves. It makes the Middle Ages seem not so
>far in the past.
SO true.
>I do believe, though, that churches should lose their tax-exempt status. Or
>that we should all get tax-exempt status. (I guess the latter is closer to
>my political beliefs.)
I absolutely agree. If church is supposed to be separate from state, let's
stop, in essence, subsidizing churches under law.
> Churches have become political instruments in the
>United States. The price of participating in politics should be taxes.
Damn right.
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Troy Westerberg
You have my humblest apologies. The "reply" and "reply all" icons are very
close together. It's not the first time I'm made that mistake today.
I assume that you can glean all the necessary information from the
following:
> > > > 5/6/01 5:25:01 AM, "Troy Westerberg" <twe...@euronet.nl>
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > << Wow, Ezekiel, you seem very angry and bitter and I can't say
> > > that I blame you. But bitterness is a paralyzing trap. >>
> > >
> > > Blah, blah blah. Natalie is a turncoat; she should be dumped from
> > > GayNet. I am neither bitter nor paralyzed; I am quite dynamic and
> > > active in gay civil rights.
> >
> > And how's that going?
> >
> > Troy Westerberg
> Please don't post private mail to me...I am on the Gaynet list
> because I want to debate issues in a public venue. This includes
> sending me a copy of messages in response to my own.
>
> ---
> Lavender-Velvet Revolution
> http://surf.to/gaybible
>
Troy Westerberg
Natalie Davis
> > I can see that the U.S. is moving, though, in the direction of theocracy.
That is indeed possible. Note the efforts of the fundamentalist
wing--Falwell, Robertson, Dobson... Note the whole Florida gang led by the
Center for Reclaiming America (they don't tell you, but the full name is
Reclaiming America for Christ). I really believe the more progressive side
of Christianity is making inroads too, though, so it's far from being a
done deal yet.
> > Perhaps one day, it'll be against the law to tune out the white noise. At
> > that point, non-violent tactics won't be an option anymore.
As a pacifist, for me to say this hurts, but if things do get to that
point, I do believe that's what it will be. But I choose to work and hope
that that situation doesn't come to pass, that decent people will step up
finally and prevent the christofascists (I say that to define their
political approach, not to disrespect them) from turning this into more of
a theocracy.
> It just seems > to me that for gay people to escalate the culture war
> is only going to
>work > against us.
> > I don't preach tolerance alone. I also preach an end to special interest
> > groups buying influence in government. Religion can't help but win that
>way
> > since they have nearly infinite financial resources (take a look at the
> > Roman Catholic and Mormon churches, for example). I preach a society of
> > constitutionally guaranteed tolerance with preference given to none on a
> > level playing field.
Kinda like a libertarian with a small "l." That's how I politically define
myself.
I leave you, hoping that the lamp of liberty will burn in your bosoms until
there shall no longer be a doubt that all ... are created free and equal.
--Abraham Lincoln
Natalie Davis
>I have to agree with you that the elimination of all special interest
>funding of ANY political activity including lobbying is a worthy
>objective (as long as my particular special interests are excluded for
>the law - grin)
rofl
>But as to the "white noise." I may disagree with you, though it is
>thought provoking. The "white noise" of christian anti-rhetoric is the
>background music for murder of both queer and wiccan suicide and
>murder. I am not sure we can afford to tune it out.
Excellent point, although tuning out an unwelcome, say, jehovah's witness
at your door is different from tuning out antigay rhetoric and
evangelization as a whole.
>Do you see a connection between evangelical belief, anti-queer preaching
>and prophecy and queer bashing?
Excellent question! Yes, sometimes. There are evangelicals who support
nondiscrimination in the legal sphere. But that group is, not a surprise,
small in number. When a hate killer says he or she killed in the name of
God or because God or his/her preacher said queers should be stoned to
death, you see the obvious connection that can exist. Well, you can; too
many on the religious wrong don't--or refuse to--admit that there's a
connection. But it would be irresponsible and unfair not to note that,
though a small minority, there are evangelicals concerned about and working
toward justice for all within American churches. And remember, many (if not
most, I haven't looked at the figures on this recently) Christians are NOT
evangelicals and many Christians (right wingers call us fake Christians--of
course) don't buy the role of evangelization. Personally, I have no problem
with not being called a Christian, if that's what it takes, to say I try to
do what I believe Jesus would do and leave it at that. At the same time,
being an out queer, I think it's important for me to stand up to the
evangelicals and say they don't hold a monopoly on Christianity.
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**********
Natalie Davis
>So, except for a few people, most of the participants in the "sacred spaces"
>discussion have once again voiced the majority opinion that targeting
>"churches," etc., would be counter-productive.
I hope you don't count me among that group. I do believe churches should
and must be targeted. I just think disrupting worship is violent and wrong,
and ultimately, counterproductive. But there are many ways to work in and
around churches. Churches are among the institutions responsible for the
rhetoric and societal conditioning that leads to the outrages that target
and wound glbts and our allies. Churches can not be ignored.
>Example: an old white Republican bastard in Florida, state Rep. Allen
>Trovillion (R-Winter Park), chewed out some teen Queers who were there to
>lobby their legislators to address the big problem of bullying of all sorts
>in public schools. In their particular instance, they wanted to discuss
>their personal experiences as Queer teens in public schools. The old white
>Republican bastard told them they were going to hell and taking the rest of
>the country with them, reducing one teenaged male to tears. It hit the news
>nationwide for an instant, and then vanished.
Thank goodness the queer press didn't let it go. I don't believe in
namecalling, and I don't see what pigmentation has to do with it, but I've
thought some decidedly unkind things about Allen Trovillion myself. What he
did was vile.
>One 19-year-old youth from Boca Raton, told the old white Republican bastard
>that classmates targeted him because of his sexual orientation. School
>administrators suspended the attackers for only one day, then humiliated
>Gentile by suggesting he provoked the violence by being "too openly gay."
>The old white Republican bastard responded to Gentile's story by saying,
>"You have to suffer the consequences of your actions."
He needs to suffer the consequences for his.
>Equality Florida does good work but their response to this was to ask "all
>Floridians to express their outrage by contacting Governor Bush at
>850-488-4441 and asking him to show desperately needed leadership in
>condemning the bigoted actions of a callous legislator."
Not a bad idea (and yes, I've written and called), but not enough. I'd
think a direct action at Trovillion's office. Coffins representing the
youngsters who die at the hands of anti-gay related violence/suicide, a
band playing a funeral dirge in their memory, some pro-gay pastors
delivering fiery eulogies for these kids and those who could end up the
same way, along with admonitions to those whose antigay statements and
beliefs inspire those who demean, beat, and kill queer kids and adults. Tha
would have been more than appropriate, I think. Or responsibly picket his
home--not with all the pomp and all, because we shouldn't punish the
neighbors (who were not part of Trovillion's vile action and might be
persuaded to side with us if they're not disrespected)--until he apologizes
to those kids. If I had the wherewithal, I'd head to Florida myself.
>The old white Republican bastard and his home should be picketed daily,
>until he apologizes or dies, right?
Shit, yeah! Great minds...
>Allen Trovillion, 74
>Florida State Representative (R- Winter Park)
>Capitol Office: Room 210 House Office Building
>402 S. Monroe St, Tallahassee FL 32399-1300
>Phone: (850)488-0660
>District Office: 1360 Palmetto Ave, Winter Park FL 32789-4916;
>Phone: (407)623-1355; SUNCOM: 334-1355
>Email: trovilli...@leg.state.fl.us
>scoutmaster, serves as the chair of the Florida State Tourism Committee
Scoutmaster? That figures.
Oh, there's another target--protest the tourism committee. hell, boycott
Florida tourism!
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**********
Natalie Davis
>Sounds like the bigger problem is apathy. Maybe the majority of American
>gay people have it so good that they don't feel the need to rise up en masse
>and confront the system that is so oppressing them. Demonstration is, after
>all a part of the philosophy of non-violence.
Absolutely. The last time the antidiscrimination bill went down to defeat
in the Maryland legislature, I couldn't understand why queers weren't
converging on Annapolis by the thousands... why they were so reluctant to
do what I see as our duty. I can only attribute it to apathy, fear, and/or
complacency.
> Maybe the majority of American gay people don't feel oppressed. Give
> it time... If the right has
>it's way - they'll feel oppressed, but by then it may be too late.
Sad, but true.
>I recognized that problem. Packed up my belongings. And left. Of course,
>if what I think might happen actually happens, I won't be safe here in
>Europe either.
My plan is to move to Amsterdam when it's financially viable. My family is
upset about it, but a girl's gotta do what a girl's gotta do. But yeah,
Europe won't be safe either. The Netherlands seems to be a better bet than
some places, though. How are you finding it there?
>Of course, I didn't just leave because of the gay rights situation. I also
>left because of the increasing lack of freedom of speech, government without
>representation, lack of privacy, freedom FROM religion, a media-cracy (or is
>that mediocracy?), taxation without benefit, out of control crime, gun
>possession, lack of worker's rights, corruption, and general social
>insecurity. Put a few glasses of wine in me and I'll come up with some
>more.
That's the same list I have!
>Acceptable targets? Try the federal government, try the people themselves.
>Disrupt traffic, block shipping lanes, wreck total havoc on the order that
>people take for granted. Those things get attention. But, good luck trying
>to get enough people to go along with you. Call a meeting of world trade
>leaders and you'll be up to your eyeballs in weirdos to accomplish your
>goals. Try to get some gay people to challenge the order and you get ....
>zippo.
You said it. And I agree with you, the only way to change the system is to
topple it and allow folks to see the sky won't fall.
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**********
Eric Bohlman
wrote:
>Religion is a real paradox. I think religion
>brings great comfort to a lot of people. At the same
time,the actions of
>some religious people cause chaos and pain. In my personal
case, it's that
>I live an ocean and a continent away from my parents. I see
them very
>rarely and I can't really tell them why without reopening
this painful
>family melodrama. Then there's the damage done on a large
scale by the
>religious organizations themselves. It makes the Middle
Ages seem not so
>far in the past.
A lot of it depends on the reason *why* people have come to
their religious beliefs. It's been demonstrated, for
example, that people who are religious because of a sense of
wonder or a feeling of being part of something bigger than
themselves tend to be less prejudiced than average, whereas
people who are religious because they view the world as a
very scary place and seek "protection" tend to be more
prejudiced.
Ezekiel J. Krahlin
(GayNet Digest) wrote:
On Sun, 06 May 2001 20:56:32 -0500 Eric Bohlman
<eboh...@earthlink.net> wrote:
<< whereas people who are religious because they view the world
as a very scary place and seek "protection" tend to be more
prejudiced. >>
I think that those who are *born into a fundamentalist religion are
the most dangerous, for they are brainwashed as infants. To undo
*that sort of damage is nigh impossible. And unfortunately, hatred
against homosexuality is ingrained at that deep a level. You
*cannot educate people away from homophobia, as you will only
win over a tiny percentage. You need to create strict laws against
anti-gay violence and defamation...as has been done in many of
our western democracies, with special exception in the U.S.
As long as the U.S. gov't refuses to give us our equality, and
basic protections from violence that other minorities enjoy...I see
a desperate need for aggressive forms of dissent. STORM INTO
THOSE CHURCHES and break up their services! You BET we'll
get media attention.
---
Lavender-Velvet Revolution
http://surf.to/gaybible
**********
Ezekiel J. Krahlin
<<
My plan is to move to Amsterdam when it's financially viable.
>>
Well, I shoulda seen *that one coming. Accuse gay activists
practicing Gandhian methods of dissent, and label them "violent"
when it suits you. (Contibuting to the clogging up of our chances
to beat the bigots, in the process.) Then, when the heat gets
really bad and homosexuals and their supporters are being
ravaging by Religious Reich Nazis under the leadership of
"W"/Ashcroft/Cheney...run off to safe little Holland, leaving us
less fortunate gays to bear the brunt of a holocaust...because we
have neither the funds nor connections to likewise seek refuge.
I doubt that the Dutch will find you a very savory character. And I
hope that--should I have the good fortune to be able to move
there myself--that our paths never cross.
Richard
bothering me since this (very interesting) discussion began.
Is it morally right to flee the homophobe to queer safe geographical
locations? Further, is the creation and maintenance of queer-safe
land-communities-neighhoods-ghettoes an appropriate goal?
Bruce Garrett wrote in really quite wonderful post:
> They say that love is blind, but no, love is accepting and
> enduring, it's hate that's blind. Have you ever loved, and been loved in
> return? Then take this for what you think it's worth guy. Find a quiet
> place and recall that love. Remember how it felt to love, and be loved.
> There's the promise land. Can you still see it? Any place that does not
> have room for that simple, beautiful, sacred bond between lovers, whether
> they're gay or straight, is not the promise land. Any place where people
> cannot look into a stranger's face, and see something of themselves in it,
> and love them as their neighbor, is not the promise land.
When I came out in the early 1980's I read Don Clark's books "Loving
Someone Gay" and the other one (Living Gay?). In one he advised all
queers to keep their passports up to date and at hand to flee the USA
"if"
Natalie speaks of fleeing to Holland. A poster from Europe gave
interesting reasons explaining his leaving the USA for greener pastures
in Europe. I have fled both South Carolina and Alaska to get to San
Francisco. But posters have reminded me how small the queer-safe space
in the Bay Area truly is.
Rex Wockner on Planet.out writes this week of no more need for
queer-only spaces like bowling leagues and softball leagues and
neighborhoods and casinos. Others on this list want only the right to
live wherever they want as good citizens of their southern or midwestern
or rural or small town communities.
Zeke confronts Natalie on the ethics of those of us with the resources
abandoning homophobic space. Others confront Zeke (and I am currently
on Zeke's side) for his desire for queer-majority safe space
(geographically, not just a bar.)
And I found the most poignant post to be from our brother in the East
Bay who fled Oklahoma.
For me, I have to tell you this. I did not even know; I never realized
the sheer amount of homophobic restrictions I not only accepted but
approved of when I lived in Fairbanks Alaska for 19 years. Restrictions
on sexual behavior and public displays of affection. Acceptance of "not
as good as" from the tolerant many. Acceptance of restriction in
appearance and public behavior and private behavior and my life in
general. I was not even aware of it at the time. Only after living in
San Francisco since fall of 1999 have I become aware of it.
It is like coming out. I remember feeling so much relief and so much
more energy when I no longer spent so much time and emotion and energy
staying in the closet. I was not aware of the amount of energy and
emotion it took to live in the closet until I was out of the closet.
Likewise, I was not aware of how much I conformed to homophobic demands
until I lived in San Francisco where I was safe in ignoring homophobic
demands in many places (not all places, I know Zeke, and not always even
in the Castro.) But compared to South Carolina or even progressive
Alaska, it is heaven on earth.
Now, my husband and I may be forced to leave San Francisco and move
somewhere where rents are not utterly outrageous and gas is not going to
cost $3.00 a gallon this summer and electricity stays on and we can
afford to use the stove. So we looked at the options of the many lovely
communities around the West, the Southwest and even the East of the
USA. But we are no longer willing to live in a state with sodomy laws
or with laws that allow discrimination against queers. In fact, we are
no longer willing to live anywhere without a substantial, and we mean
close to majority, queer population. Is that a sellout? Probably.
Back to Bruce's well written post (all of it, not just the snip above)
Bruce, I may agree with you about the final goal of progressive
movements towards a loving world. But I have to say that I do not see
anything like such a world coming to be in the near future. And I
describe the near future as my lifetime, the lifetime of my 21 year old
daughter, plus the life time of my unborn grandchildren. Bruce, your
vision is grand in the very best sense of that word. I found it
inspiring. But there remains, throughout all history that I know of,
equally large and much better funded, corporate, religious, and bigoted
views of a world where homosexuals are destroyed or forced back in the
closet, or kept in their place as third rate citizens. The homphobes
are powerful. When the highest court in Hawaii found no constitutional
opposition to recognition of our loving families, the homophobes
convinced the majority of citizens to change the constitution. When
similar legal challenges to homophobic interference in our families
looked strong under current law, the homophobes in the Mormon Church,
the Roman Catholic church, and the Baptist churches got the constitution
changed in Alaska and the laws changed in California. For the USA
queers and others interested, I strongly recommend browsing the maps of
http://www.usqueers.com/ for a look at the state of legal discrimination
against us. And it is a generation since Stonewall and the White Night
riots and still we and our families are outside the law in the vast
majority of land mass in the USA- outlaws, if you will.
I just don't have a realistic hope for Bruce's truly beautiful vision to
come to pass. Some of you do. Even Zeke sees such a vision after major
confrontations. But I tell you the truth, I don't. So we live in San
Francisco where the vision is approached much more closely than in
Denver, Phoenix, Albuquerque, Los Angeles, or Anchorage - places where I
have lived for at least three months each over the last several years.
Is the morally correct position to live in homophobic space
courageously? I don't know. I really don't. I am tired of living that
way. I love San Francisco. I love the Sunday paper reporting this week
that the one of the prosecutors of the Diane Whipple murder (dog attack)
is a great lawyer with ties to the Getty family who earned her way
through law school as a model for sexy underwear and the other
prosecutor is a great lawyer and a gay ex-Jesuit. And the report was to
the effect that such was a good thing! That each of their past
experiences brought humanity and righteousness to the prosecution.
Amazing to read such in a community paper in the USA. Imagine such in
Tulsa OK or Atlanta GA or even Washington DC.
So I have to admit to all that I have chosen to flee to queer-freedom
land and will only choose to live in queer-freedom land if at all
possible in the future. I frankly have little but respect to all you
out there who live in anti-queer-freedom space. But having felt the
freedom and safety of queer-freedom space, I just can't go back. I may
have to, but I really don't want to.
Are the Netherlands a sellout? I don't think so. If I had the energy
and emotional strength and financial resources I would consider it.
Imagine living in a country with civilized laws on marriage and drugs
and sex. I can see myself loving it there, even though I don't use
drugs. But to share another truth, after 19 years in Alaska, I really
don't want to see freezing temperatures ever again! (LOL)
So at this stage in my life (49 years old) I am glad for Castro. I am
glad for West Hollywood. I am glad for Dupont Circle, and parts of Key
West, and Provincetown etc. . And I am real glad for Guerneville at the
Russian River. I like queer-space and believe its creation and
maintenance is a very good thing. It is wonderful to have neighborhoods
where crowds can chant "Go Home" to homophobic police if the need
arises.
What do you think about the creation and maintenance of
queer-freedom-space?
What do you think about the morality of fleeing to queer-freedom-space?
Richard Seward
PS Bah Humbug to anyone who wants to discriminate against disabled
persons in thought, posts, or deeds. And three cheers for the sister
who pointed out that the non-disabled usually screw it up when they take
the initiative of disabled rights.
Troy Westerberg
the Netherlands? My conclusion is - I don't think so.
Personally, gay marriage means nothing to me - but laws against it are
grossly inhumane and discriminatory. I didn't move here to get married - in
fact I haven't even had a boyfriend. ;-< I didn't even move here for the
gay scene - the whole Amsterdam-XTC-wiggle-til-you-drop thing is just not
for me and I live elsewhere.
I'm not a political refugee here. The authorities would laugh me all the
way to Sweden if I even attempted to get asylum here. I just had a chance
to pursue something that I dreamed of as far back as childhood - to live in
Europe. Was I happy with life in America? No. It just happened to be a
Dutch company that offered me the job - it could have been the British
company.
I have discovered here a government that's pretty progressive. I've don't
think I ever imagined a governmental system designed to be beaten. I call
it anarcho-bureaucracy. And it's been a truly weird experience.
But there IS homophobia in the Netherlands. There are hate crimes. There's
xenophobia and racism. There's pollution. It's crowded. The climate
sucks. This is not paradise - but I might be able to call it home for a
while, have a good time doing it and I might even learn something.
Troy Westerberg
Natalie Davis
>Zeke confronts Natalie on the ethics of those of us with the resources
>abandoning homophobic space. Others confront Zeke (and I am currently
>on Zeke's side) for his desire for queer-majority safe space
>(geographically, not just a bar.)
Let me state here before one human's lies take on the appearance of truth:
I do not have the resources. Yet. I only have, at this point, the desire.
People need different things to be happy and safe. For example, this list
may be safe queer space for some, but it isn't for me. I want a life where
my kids and I will be happy and safe and free to live as we will. And I
won't apologize for that. I don't want to live in a place where homophobia
is tolerated or instituted under law. I'm sick of that. Then again, I don't
trust living in queer-only space because the risk is high of running into
queers like Ezekiel, who are as damaging to me as Jerry Falwell is. The
answer that comes to me is the same one I've been mulling for years: Amsterdam.
>And it is a generation since Stonewall and the White Night
>riots and still we and our families are outside the law in the vast
>majority of land mass in the USA- outlaws, if you will.
A thought that never leaves me and a very excellent one, Richard. Oh, no...
U2 comes to mind... "How long, how long must we sing this song?"
>I just don't have a realistic hope for Bruce's truly beautiful vision to
>come to pass.
I do; I just doubt it will occur within my lifetime. Which means it's my
job to do all I ethically can to increase the likelihood that a world of
justice for all will happen so that my kids can experience it.
>Is the morally correct position to live in homophobic space
>courageously? I don't know. I really don't. I am tired of living that
>way.
Good question. I mull over that too. I have no answer. But I hope I can
move to Amsterdam morally. Because wouldn't that be a further indignity?
Think about it: "You queers, in order to be moral people, don't have the
right to live where you choose." Does that make sense?
>So I have to admit to all that I have chosen to flee to queer-freedom
>land and will only choose to live in queer-freedom land if at all
>possible in the future. I frankly have little but respect to all you
>out there who live in anti-queer-freedom space. But having felt the
>freedom and safety of queer-freedom space, I just can't go back. I may
>have to, but I really don't want to.
I heard that. Enough is enough, as they say. After a while, a dog gets
tired of being kicked and gets the hell out of the way.
>Are the Netherlands a sellout? I don't think so.
Neither do I. But if anyone calls me a sellout, all I have to do is look at
my checkbook to know that I haven't sold anyone anything.
>So at this stage in my life (49 years old) I am glad for Castro. I am
>glad for West Hollywood. I am glad for Dupont Circle, and parts of Key
>West, and Provincetown etc. . And I am real glad for Guerneville at the
>Russian River. I like queer-space and believe its creation and
>maintenance is a very good thing. It is wonderful to have neighborhoods
>where crowds can chant "Go Home" to homophobic police if the need
>arises.
Amen to that. Dupont Circle and Baltimore's Mount Vernon are it for me. And
Greenwich Village (although that's been getting weird over the past 10
years). I still recall Stonewall 25... seeing queers holding hands,
kissing, whatever all over town and no one saying a word about it, except
to perhaps smile. Seeing the pennants on the light poles saying, "Welcome
World Cup Visitors! Welcome Gay Games Visitors!" Man, that was such a
kick... I'm getting a warm glow just thinking about it.
>What do you think about the creation and maintenance of
>queer-freedom-space? What do you think about the morality of fleeing to
>queer-freedom-space?
I think people should be free to live how and where they want without
judgment or interference. Personally, I like all people and hate the idea
of segregation. People I love come in all sexualities and ages and
philosophies and colors and levels of ability and flavors... I couldn't
separate myself from any of them. But if I could live in a place that
welcomes diversity and keeps the bigots and 'phobes out... you betcha.
As to morality, I'm struggling with that question. I believe all humans
have a duty to (ethically) fight for justice for all (and not just for
queers). Whether that would allow me to leave a place I don't wish to be
(Amerikkka) I have to determine. But, God, I hope so.
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Richard
> >(Richard)Are the Netherlands a sellout? I don't think so.
>
> (Natalie) Neither do I. But if anyone calls me a sellout, all I have to do is look at my checkbook to know that I haven't sold anyone anything.
Laughing out loud again Natalie. Perhaps you could sell your toaster
oven! LOL
> (Natalie continues) I think people should be free to live how and where they want without
> judgment or interference. Personally, I like all people and hate the idea
> of segregation. People I love come in all sexualities and ages and
> philosophies and colors and levels of ability and flavors... I couldn't
> separate myself from any of them. But if I could live in a place that
> welcomes diversity and keeps the bigots and 'phobes out... you betcha.
I have to share a diversity experience from this past Saturday - a hot
day in San Francisco (hot temperature that is!) Steve and I decided to
go to the beach. We went to the nude Baker Beach because we just could
not face climbing the cliffs to go to the all gay beach closer to Golden
Gate Bridge. When we got there about 11:00 AM it was all men - alone
or in couples. And from the looks of things it was gay men (at least my
gaydar was off the map) From the cliff on around it was Steve and I
(beached beluga's - white whales) a hunky African American, a very hot
Native American, a hot bear-daddy who refused to take his trunks off, a
couple here and there of shaved headed and pierced hot boys, some Asian
Americans, and the lone nude interspersed nicely. Oh yes, and also the
long and the short of it if you catch my drift.
Well, along comes a thirty something guy and his about 8 year old son.
They claim a space and Steve and I conjecture on will Daddy or won't
Daddy. Low and behold he shucked his shorts and walked about naked.
But the boy kept his trunks on. I have noticed this phenomena before -
at clothing mandatory beaches you often see kids playing naked in the
surf. At clothing optional beaches, I have only seen kids with swim
suits on.
Steve and I start talking about would we or wouldn't we take my daughter
to the nude beach when along comes a very fit and tanned man who joins
the daddy and son and strips to a black thong. With that square inch of
material I am curious as to why he bothers, but to each his own. Well,
he proceeds to build 16 ft by 8 ft structure about 10 feet tall to
provide shade. Odd, we think to work for about an hour to create shade
to sun bathe in. I offer Steve a bet that this guy will lay in the sun
after building his structure, but Steve is smart and passes. Low and
behold, his labors complete, thong-man pulls his towel out and lays in
the sun. Very odd - but what the heck.
Well the beach is still all men though we are not sure about sexual
orientation of thong-man and daddy. But then, much to my relief, enters
a lesbian (gaydar again - not rude enough to ask) She lays topless next
to us and pulls out a book and a joint about the size of a small cigar.
And thoroughly enjoys herself.
Then another woman comes along and joins thong-man and naked daddy - but
the boy does not rush to her so we figure she is not the mother. She
strips and lays out with book and towel.
And through all this wonder, we have a nonchalant latino fisherman
casting his line into the surf, fully clothed and couldn't care less
about the mounds of winter whiteness around him.
Well, we were getting a bit too much sun and decided to leave. Leaving
Latino, African American, Asian American, Caucasian American, a few
mixed-who-knows-who-cares-Americans, lesbians, straights, gay men (the
structure allowed one bear to move closer to another bear who connected
rather nicely), older, younger, buffed out and fat folk, marijuana users
and clean-and-sobers to the beach within the city limits in a national
park in San Francisco.
I love this city!
Richard
PS My rent for a 600 sq. ft 2 BR apt with parking space is only $1,695
and that is a steal in the current market! without rent control, the
going price for our place is over $2,000 a month.
Natalie Davis
>Natalie Davis wrote:
>
> > >(Richard)Are the Netherlands a sellout? I don't think so.
> >
> > (Natalie) Neither do I. But if anyone calls me a sellout, all I have to
> do is look at my checkbook to know that I haven't sold anyone anything.
>
>Laughing out loud again Natalie. Perhaps you could sell your toaster
>oven! LOL
Nah. I prize that particular appliance quite a bit. ;)
>Well, we were getting a bit too much sun and decided to leave. Leaving
>Latino, African American, Asian American, Caucasian American, a few
>mixed-who-knows-who-cares-Americans, lesbians, straights, gay men (the
>structure allowed one bear to move closer to another bear who connected
>rather nicely), older, younger, buffed out and fat folk, marijuana users
>and clean-and-sobers to the beach within the city limits in a national
>park in San Francisco.
>
>I love this city!
I can't afford to live there, but I always love to visit SF when I can.
There are few places in this godforsaken country like it.
>PS My rent for a 600 sq. ft 2 BR apt with parking space is only $1,695
>and that is a steal in the current market! without rent control, the
>going price for our place is over $2,000 a month.
Reminds me of a closet, um, studio apartment in NYC that I rented for
$1200/month back in the '80s. [Not THAT kind of closet... I'm referring to
the size of the apt! <g>) I thought it was SUCH a good deal (and it was).
Of course, now I rent a four-bedroom house outside of Baltimore for about
$600. The mind reels.
nat
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Marcus Winberg
>>Are the Netherlands a sellout? I don't think so.
>
>Neither do I. But if anyone calls me a sellout, all I have to do is look
>at my checkbook to know that I haven't sold anyone anything.
I fear people have outrageous expectations on the Netherlands. It has its
phobes too. The law for marriage didn't pass without opposition. Is it
better than living in some bible belt town in Louisiana? Definitely. Most
of Northern Europe is, in fact, pretty cool about homosexuality (with the
exception of the UK). But there are phobes even here. They're few, they're
far between, but they're also more desperate.
Cheers,
Marcus