How sad <Was Re: [GN] Targeting Sacred Spaces>
Troy Westerberg
you're going to mailbomb me, make it worth everyone's while!
I received the following messages with the following message IDs:
Message-Id: <E14wW0K-...@pluto.runbox.com>
Message-Id: <E14wW0P-...@pluto.runbox.com>
Message-Id: <E14wW0T-...@pluto.runbox.com>
Message-Id: <E14wW0d-...@pluto.runbox.com>
Message-Id: <E14wW0i-...@pluto.runbox.com>
Message-Id: <E14wW0t-...@pluto.runbox.com>
Message-Id: <E14wW0o-...@pluto.runbox.com>
Message-Id: <E14wW0x-...@pluto.runbox.com>
All from Zeke - all resending my message to him back to me.
Read carefully, folks. First Zeke sent this:
"Fuck off, goon. Stop sending me private e-mail, it's a violation of TOSS.
As long as you continue to do this, I'll send FIVE copies of whatever you
sent me." (Eight...five...it's all the same to Zeke)
I responded with:
"That went to the list as well. Learn how to read an email header. I'll
post it for you as a lesson in internet usage (and I'll post this to the
list if you prefer, just say the word):
<email routing stuff deleted>
From: "Troy Westerberg" <twe...@euronet.nl>
To: <ezek...@iname.com>, <gay...@QueerNet.ORG> <-------------------this
means it went to the list
References: <E14wUjs-...@pluto.runbox.com>
Subject: Re: [GN] Targeting Sacred Spaces
Date: Sun, 6 May 2001 22:42:31 +0200
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200
Sender: owner-...@QueerNet.ORG
Precedence: bulk
X-UIDL: a6a4c86ea144f4dc053260d721cfc293
Still want it posted to the list?
Troy"
<end quote, in case all the brackets and shit threw you off>
Sorry, Zeke, you said the word. Consider it posted to the list. What are
you...like 12 years old?
Troy Westerberg
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ezekiel J.Krahlin" <ezek...@runbox.com>
To: "Troy Westerberg" <twe...@euronet.nl>
Sent: Sunday, May 06, 2001 11:23 PM
Subject: Re: [GN] Targeting Sacred Spaces
> 5/6/01 2:05:23 PM, "Troy Westerberg" <twe...@euronet.nl>
> wrote:
>
> >That went to the list as well. Learn how to read an email header.
> I'll post
> >it for you as a lesson in internet usage (and I'll post this to the
> list if
> >you prefer, just say the word):
> >
> >"Return-Path: <owner-gay...@dorothy.queernet.org>
> >Received: from mx0.euronet.nl (mx0.euronet.nl [194.134.0.23])
> > by pop1.euronet.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id ECD4C5B07
> > for <p361...@pop1.euronet.nl>; Sun, 6 May 2001 22:43:37
> +0200 (MET DST)
> >Received: by mx0.euronet.nl (Postfix)
> > id A567D5CFD; Sun, 6 May 2001 22:43:37 +0200 (MET DST)
> >Delivered-To: twe...@euronet.nl
> >Received: from dorothy.queernet.org (dorothy.queernet.org
> [209.24.233.48])
> > by mx0.euronet.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id A76B15CE7
> > for <twe...@euronet.nl>; Sun, 6 May 2001 22:43:36 +0200
> (MET DST)
> >Received: by dorothy.queernet.org (8.12.0.Beta7/8.12.0.Beta7)
> id
> >f46KfqSX003842;
> > Sun, 6 May 2001 13:41:52 -0700 (PDT)
> >Received: by dorothy.queernet.org (8.12.0.Beta7/8.12.0.Beta7)
> id
> >f46Kfpe1003837
> > for gaynet-push; Sun, 6 May 2001 13:41:51 -0700 (PDT)
> >Received: from smtp.euronet.nl (america.euronet.nl
> [194.134.0.151]) by
> > dorothy.queernet.org (8.12.0.Beta7/8.12.0.Beta7) with ESMTP
> id
> > f46KfmZ4003833 for <gay...@QueerNet.ORG>; Sun, 6 May
> 2001 13:41:49
> > -0700 (PDT)
> ><I'm protected by a firewall, but I deleted this line just in case
> you're
> >dumb enough to use it>
> >Message-ID: <00fe01c0d66d$1305cb20$579481d4@ws1>
> >From: "Troy Westerberg" <twe...@euronet.nl>
> >To: <ezek...@iname.com>, <gay...@QueerNet.ORG> <------
> -------------this
> >means it went to the list
> >References: <E14wUjs-...@pluto.runbox.com>
> >Subject: Re: [GN] Targeting Sacred Spaces
> >Date: Sun, 6 May 2001 22:42:31 +0200
> >MIME-Version: 1.0
> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
> >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> >X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200
> >Sender: owner-...@QueerNet.ORG
> >Precedence: bulk
> >X-UIDL: a6a4c86ea144f4dc053260d721cfc293
> >
> >Still want it posted to the list?
> >
> >Troy
> >
> >
> >
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: "Ezekiel J.Krahlin" <ezek...@runbox.com>
> >To: "Troy Westerberg" <twe...@euronet.nl>
> >Sent: Sunday, May 06, 2001 10:52 PM
> >Subject: Re: [GN] Targeting Sacred Spaces
> >
> >
> >> Fuck off, goon. Stop sending me private e-mail, it's a violation
> of
> >> TOSS. As long as you continue to do this, I'll send FIVE
> copies of
> >> whatever you sent me.
> >>
> >> 5/6/01 1:42:31 PM, "Troy Westerberg" <twe...@euronet.nl>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> >You say:
> >> >
> >> >"You make the gay issue sound like a picnic outing...that
> nothing
> >> >more than a few angry words were expressed by bigoted
> church-
> >> >goers. You don't seem to have *any sort of rational and
> >> emotional
> >> >connection with the fact that these "religious" folk are
> >> bludgeoning
> >> >and killing gay people. We are at war here, not a picnic.
> >> >Unfortunately, your being an active church-member yourself,
> you
> >> >have allowed Fundamentalist brain-washing to poison your
> >> >perception of gay rights."
> >> >
> >> >Then you go on to say:
> >> >
> >> >"Ah, but there's your flaw: in no way am I promoting violence.
> >> Your
> >> >attempts to color my proposals as violent, is shameful and
> >> >manipulative"
> >> >
> >> >I say:
> >> >
> >> >This is the weekend that Holland commemorates
> >> Occupation/Liberation during
> >> >1940-1945. I'm not sure you know what "war" is (and I'm not
> >> sure I do
> >> >either). There was an article in the Dutch paper "de
> Volkskrant"
> >> that
> >> >talked about how WWII is becoming history to an increasing
> >> degree. It
> >> >talked about how young people (who have never
> experienced
> >> war) might be
> >> >slipping into a sense of apathy.
> >> >
> >> >You mention Hitler and the genocide his ilk perpetrated on
> the
> >> world. You
> >> >wear it like a flag. I find this, frankly, disgusting. You say
> "we
> >> are at
> >> >war" then you say that you are non-violent. You can't have
> both.
> >> >
> >> >There may come a time when non-violence has no choice
> but to
> >> give way to
> >> >violence. And war is violent, after all. (I think Perry Farrell
> said
> >> that.
> >> >;-0).
> >> >
> >> >If you're serious about war - you'll need an army. Without
> one,
> >> you're just
> >> >a psycho mass murderer.
> >> >
> >> >If you're non-violent, drop the war talk.
> >> >
> >> >Troy Westerberg
> >> >
> >> >(I know I'm supposed to quote you in your entirety (at least
> >> according the
> >> >your rules). But, frankly, your post was huge and unwieldy.
> To
> >> post it in
> >> >it's entirety violates accepted rules of netiquette. Go back
> >> through your
> >> >archive if you're confused.)
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >> ---
> >> Lavender-Velvet Revolution
> >> http://surf.to/gaybible
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> ---
> Lavender-Velvet Revolution
> http://surf.to/gaybible
**********
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Ezekiel J. Krahlin
<twe...@euronet.nl> wrote:
<<
I received the following messages with the following message IDs:
>>
How typically vengeful of conservative queers...something which I
have dealt with many times before. Because you don't *like what I
have to say; in fact you can't control your *hatred, you then
attempt to sabotage my Internet access, as well as participation in
this mailing list.
It is your desire to flush out any true spirit of democracy and
liberation...replacing it with a bunch of hetero-ass-lickers so you
can keep up the status quo, and receive whatever bones of
reward tossed to your by our right-wing nazis.
Petty minds live in petty worlds...sad to see that gays are not
immune to this, either. Essentially, your kind are no different than
bigoted straights: you are, in every way that counts, completely
heterocentric.
If you think you can destroy my Internet access, think again (in
fact, if you do think at all, it will obviously be the first time).
Disconnecting me will be merely a tiny burp; I'll hardly notice. I am
signed up under various pseudonyms to an assortment of free
ISPs. And even if all those subscriptions run out, I only need call
my hacker buddies, to get me back on again...which time to do
this will take less than 5 minutes.
If I should lose access to Gaynet, I can simply resubscribe under
another name. No big deal.
Like Natalie Davis (a puppet for Xian fundamentalists via the
MCC), you don't know your enemies from your friends. Therefore,
you are an obstruction to our progress, in winning our freedom.
This is now on record.
Naomi Himmelhoch
internet pissing contest. You don't like it when people use your private
email? Think about that next time you send one of your "brilliant"
rebuttals out to all and sundry. You really get a charge out of feeling
persecuted, don't you?
Naomi Himmelhoch
Redwood City
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
Eric Payne
> Are we going to go through this again? You are the one who started the
> internet pissing contest. You don't like it when people use your private
> email? Think about that next time you send one of your "brilliant"
> rebuttals out to all and sundry. You really get a charge out of feeling
> persecuted, don't you?
>
> Naomi Himmelhoch
> Redwood City
This guy is some piece of work! A few years back, he did the same thing in
alt.politics.homosexuality with his extremist (and, hey, let's be honest here)
and insane prattlings... until someone posted details of his personal life to
which he readily admitted... at that point, it became obvious he was simply an
obsessive who, because his income was derived from government welfare benefits,
had nothing to do but sit back and get lost in his own head all day, every day.
And that's GOT to be a scary forest to travel.
Eric Payne
Livermore, CA
Bruce Garrett
EP> This guy is some piece of work! A few years back, he did the same thing
EP> in alt.politics.homosexuality with his extremist (and, hey, let's be
EP> honest here) and insane prattlings... until someone posted details of
EP> his personal life to which he readily admitted... at that point, it
EP> became obvious he was simply an obsessive who, because his income was
EP> derived from government welfare benefits, had nothing to do but sit
EP> back and get lost in his own head all day, every day.
There are times when I wonder how many of the anti-gay regulars in
APH live the same, uhm, lifestyle. The frequency of their posting sure
makes you wonder just what the heck they do for a living...
EP> And that's GOT to be a scary forest to travel.
It's scary enough from the outside looking in...
---
-Bruce Garrett
http://www.pobox.com/~bgarrett
Flat Mars Society
Eric Payne
following:
================================================
This guy is some piece of work! A few years back, he did the same thing in
alt.politics.homosexuality with his extremist (and, hey, let's be honest here) and
insane prattlings... until someone posted details of his personal life to which he
readily admitted... at that point, it became obvious he was simply an obsessive
who, because his income was derived from government welfare benefits, had nothing
to do but sit back and get lost in his own head all day, every day.
================================================
To which, Bruce Garrett (bgar...@pobox.com) responded:
There are times when I wonder how many of the anti-gay regulars in APH live the
same, uhm, lifestyle. The frequency of their posting sure makes you wonder just
what the heck they do for a living...
================================================
To which, Roger B.A. Klorese (rog...@queerNet.ORG) wrote:
>
> And why is that relevant, pray tell? What's it your business if someone
> lives off a trust fund, a career or a welfare check?
>
> And are you guys aware that postings such as his, as well as the
> homophobic nonsense to which it is a reaction, are exactly why
> alt.politics.homosexuality was created? I should know -- I created it for
> that purpose.
>
> And by the way, Eric, your name-calling (insane, obsessive) is as
> off-charter as his.
================================================
Well, Roger, why is it relevant?
First, I'm going to make the assumption you are unfamiliar with the APH thread in
which the aspects of his personal life were revealed; however, to understand the
relevance of the information, and the statements made concerning the mental state
of the original poster, one must be aware of the contents of the thread mentioned.
It's a double-edged sword, especially now when it's become increasingly difficult
to find archived Usenet postings via Deja/Google, etc. without knowing exactly
where to look in the first place.
Bruce, I know, is quite aware of the thread, as he and I were both - at that time -
frequent contributors/posters to APH.
In that thread, Mr. EK was posting, literally, dozens of messages a day, each
getting more and more extreme, until he was, ultimately, calling for all gays to
perform acts of violence against non-gays, simply to show straights we were capable
of standing up for ourselves, physically. Ultimately, EK was even
promoting/supporting the murder of straights by gays, just to see if those same
straights who called for an abolishment of hate-crime statutes would quickly
embrace those same statutes if it meant a gay person would have an increased
punishment. In other messages, he called for open, bloody revolution on the
streets.
Another poster revealed EK was receiving disability benefits for a psychological
disorder, and had been for many years, even though EK was/is a young man. EK
himself acknowledged he was receiving such benefits, had almost, literally, never
worked a day in his adult life... and the psychological impairment from which he
suffered was, according to EK, somehow related to the "struggle" between gays and
straights and its effect on him, personally, making him incapable of employment.
Perhaps it's subjective, but I think anyone who posts fifty/sixty messages a day to
any newsgroup, no matter the topic, can be considered "obsessive." Just as the
hundrdeds of anti-gay postings that appear from the same four or five people
equating homosexual orientation with pedophilia - in my opinion - are obsessive. I
have never applied two different sets of criteria to make a personal judgement
calls simply because the two opinions I'm judging, for myself, are from "us" and
"them." So, yes, EK is just as obsessive as Fred Cherry, or the "Reverend," or
anyone else who fits the mold.
As for "insane"? Again, a judgement call... but anyone who calls for murder and
somehow justifies mass killings as somehow advancing civil rights, in my opinion,
is not playing with a full deck... and is somewhat supported by EK's admission
regarding the source of and reason for his income.
Eric Payne
Livermore, CA
Bruce Garrett
> And why is that relevant, pray tell? What's it your business if someone
> lives off a trust fund, a career or a welfare check?
Or is well to do and middle class...for that matter. Right? But
you're right Roger. A person with far too much time on their hands to
indulge their passion for poisoning the well doesn't necessarily have to be
living off a welfare, or disabilities check. Just ask Richard Sciaffe.
And in any case, it's not where the money comes from, or the leisure or
lack thereof in a person's life, so much as the insularity from life,
that's telling. And yes, when all is said and done, we're all, every one
of us, at risk of falling into that...poor, rich and middle class well to
do alike. It takes effort, and perhaps a non-trivial degree of pain
endurance, to stay engaged with life and not retreat. There's been a death
in my family recently, and having to attend to many things among the
Southern Baptist segment of my family tree, I found myself alternately
consoled over my loss, and heavily proselytized. The subtext of it was
that we weren't really a family, unless we all went to the same church (my
two Catholic cousins would have been interested in hearing that I'm
sure...), and that Christ could life my pain and grief from me...if only I
accept...and believe...unquestioningly. But there is a difference between
faith that sustains you while you confront life, and dogma that becomes a
fortress against the pressures of the outside world, and then, quickly,
becomes a prison. Your soul could suffocate to death in that prison.
> And are you guys aware that postings such as his, as well as the
> homophobic nonsense to which it is a reaction, are exactly why
> alt.politics.homosexuality was created? I should know -- I created it
> for that purpose.
And vicious gay on gay flame wars are exactly why, for nearly a
decade, I preferred participating in it, to soc.motss. I figured if I was
going to be spending the bulk of my on-line time in the middle of people
cutting each other, my conscience wouldn't suffer as much if I spent it
cutting the phobes. I have always deeply appreciated your creation of APH
Roger...otherwise I might have washed my hands of the net after my first
few months on it, and that wouldn't have been a good thing...
I appreciate your desire to keep things civil in here, and I would
not want it any other way. The first time I ever had any deeply felt sense
of on-line community with other gay people was on a BBS named GLIB in the
Washington D.C. area. People on that system would argue politics intensely
on that system (one new user announced, by way of introduction to the rest
of us, that his two all time favorite people were Robert Bork and Margaret
Thatcher...), but we were all still able to get together for a friendly
happy hour at a place on Capital Hill every Friday. Maybe that was simply
because the nature of BBSs in those days was that the users all in the
local dial-up area, and however diverse our politics were, we had at least
Some sense of community as a Place we all lived in physically, as opposed
to occupying virtually. Or maybe it was just that Inside The Washington
Beltway thing. Or maybe it was the guy who ran the system, Jon Larimore,
who managed to keep the temperatures down despite the volatile mix of
personalities on the system, and did it largely by setting the calm,
dignified on-line example he expected the rest of us to follow. When I got
my first Internet account, I figured the net would be pretty much like
GLIB, only more so.
Just goes to show how spending too much of your life in an isolated
enclave can warp your view of reality, eh...?
---
-Bruce Garrett
http://www.pobox.com/~bgarrett
Disclaimer: I do not speak for the homosexual
conspiracy. I only work here.
Marc Stauffer
I generally agreed with your post - and this is a little nit picking. I
have however noticed that you and a number of people in our community are
constantly on Dick Scaife. Let's keep things in perspective. YES - his
gay record sucks. However taken in total the Mellon-Scaife dynasty - richer
than the Rockefellers has done a tremendous amount of good with their
fortune. Perhaps its because I know Pittsburgh well that I look beyond just
the issue of Gays when it comes to Dick Scaife.
1.) It was his family and him that got the world's first smoke control law
passed in 1948 to start cleaning the
environment and started to make Pittsburgh a liveable city.
2.) The Mellon-Scaife family also totally funded Mellon Institute now part
of Carnegie-Mellon University that
gave Dr. Jonas Salk total funding to find a vaccine for polio.
3.) They have provided Pittsburgh with a 1st class Art Museum.
4.) They have funded the Western Pennsylvania Conservancy that has
preserved thousands of acres of land for
conservation and recreation including Frank Lloyd Wrights "Falling
Water" Also giving money to buy and preserve
rare "Old Forest Hardwoods" through out PA.
5.) Without his backing PA would not have been able to clean up so much of
the acid mine drainage that polluted
hundreds of miles of PA streams and rivers.
6.) They have given generously to the community and communities that made
their fortune.
I'll grant that on Gay Issues he sucks - but he does deserve to be put in
perspective. I also wonder how much of his
viewpoint about us is influenced by the suicide of family members who were
gay and blackmailed for it.
Fair is fair even with our opponents.
Marc
M. G. Stauffer
Naomi Himmelhoch
As a fellow Pittsburgher, I have to disagree with your evaluation of old
Dick. I think you are giving him too much credit for the good his family
has definitely done for the region. I love the Scaife gallery, too, but it
is not the only source of funding for the art museum. And the Scaifes may
have been one of the patrons of Salk, who HELPED to develop the polio
vaccine, but that WAS the family.
Dick all on his lonesome helped to finance the "Arkansas Project" witch
hunt. I personally do not feel that the impeachment of Bill Clinton for the
"High crime and misdemeanor" that he was accused of was good for the
country, or either political party. Also, his "news" paper, the Tribune
Review, which is supposed to provide an alternate point of view to the
Post-Gazette, was sited in Brill's content as changing and/or excluding news
stories so as not to offend it's owner. He also funds "breaking" news story
investigatins that are modeled after the Arkansas Project articles that
"found" Paula Jones. Yet he behaves as if he has made a genuine
contribution to free speech in Pittsburgh. In fact, the Tribune reported the
Brill's content analysis as a positive review, when in fact it was extremely
negative.
The Scaifes and Mellons have given a lot to Pittsburgh (but then, Pittsburgh
has returned the favor). That Dick Scaife shares the name shouldn't
automatically get him credit for every positive thing that any ancestor has
ever done, however.
Sorry, I am a little incoherent today.
Naomi Himmelhoch
Redwood City, CA
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
**********
Ezekiel J. Krahlin
<jeric...@home.com> said:
<<
This guy is some piece of work!
>>
You bet...just not in the way you mean it.
<<
A few years back, he did the same thing in
alt.politics.homosexuality
>>
"The same thing"? As in: speaking out against back-stabbing,
regressive idiots who are barely less homophobic than our
enemies.
<<
with his extremist (and, hey, let's be honest here) and insane
prattlings...
>>
There is nothing extreme with outrage against ongoing
homophobia in our society. Likewise, nothing extreme with
challenging Natalie for twisting the definition of "violence" to suit
her selfish ends. And if her distortions and claim to speak for
Gandhi are not insane prattlings, then I don't know what is.
<<
until someone posted details of his personal life to which he
readily admitted...
>>
Like Natalie and others, you too distort. Most of these so-called
"personal details" were outright lies, so I clarified the issue.
People have declared me "insane", "irrational" and "nut case",
based on my admitted history of borderline schizophrenia and
manic/depression. Such labels are every bit as hateful and
stereotypcial as calling gay people perverts, sinners, and
destroyers of a Godly life.
And I do believe, like Carl Jung (father of human psychology),
that some of us labeled as "schizophrenic" are actually dealing
with powerful creative energies...that, if we learn to control and
harness, will reward us with many wonderful gifts. This, I believe,
is my case...and that my main gifts are (1) to promote through my
words, gay liberation, and (2) to help bring out the great potential
of my gay sisters and brothers.
It is a damned shame that some gays use such underhanded
tactics of blatant prejudice (in this case, against those who suffer
disabilities), in order to have their way...tactics which are every bit
as vile as those used by the Religious Reich.
Survivors of so-called mental disabilities come out of it with
*stronger minds than your average Jane. What about
homophobes who bash and preach killing of gays? And motorists
who get their kicks by smashing pedestrians and cyclists? Just
because they can still get away with this, does NOT mean by any
stretch of the imagination, that they are perfectly sane. In fact, I
was always a *lot saner than such idiots, even when passing
through the WORST chapters of my shizophrenia and
depressions. I *never fantasized brutally maiming and killing *any
kind of person.
Just as I am PROUD to be gay, I am proud to have survived my
disabilities, and come out so well: as a warrior and defender for
gay rights.
<<
at that point, it became obvious he was simply an obsessive who,
because his income was derived from government welfare
benefits, had nothing to do but sit back and get lost in his own
head all day, every day.
>>
You are SO wrong on this. Yes, I do receive a disability stipend,
though not from Welfare. I have more to do each day, than I can
figure out how to fit in to 24 hours. I do plenty of volunteer work,
for gay rights, and now bicyclists rights. Part of my work includes
being involved in newsgroups, to present a voice other than
status-quo. I also do a lot of writing, and interview homeless
people, that they may have a voice too, on the web.
Unlike many people who would absolutely freak out and slide
utterly downhill into the gutter, if they had no boss telling them
how to live their lives 24/7...I am well disciplined in using all my
time for personal growth, as well as for contributing back to
society in ways that *I see fit.
Plus, it's a wonderful freedom to pick up wherever I am, at
whatever time, and bicycle out to the ocean, or to Berkeley, or
wherever! No one tells me how to live my life...especially in such
a gay-hateful society, where many low-income queers (sub-living-
wage, no insurance, no home owned) make arrogant, bigoted
heteros wealthy far beyond their needs.
<<
And that's GOT to be a scary forest to travel.
>>
Thanks for giving me *some credit for my courage on a road
painfully travelled...albeit subconsciously. You would write me off,
based on ideas as "crazy" or "insane"...a nasty prejudice equal to
relegating gays as "faggots".
But what *I do instead, is tell the truth about my life...after all, if I'm
not afraid to be out of the closet as a gay person, why should I
remain in the closet for mental disabilities, and for willfully living
on a low income? I realize this adds more burdens on my life, due
to society's cruel stigmas...including such vulgar attacks by the
likes of yourself. But the tradeoff is in bringing out the greatness
of my soul...which greatness I want for other gays who are
marginalized IN OUR OWN COMMUNITY for not being
conservatively status-quo. So any gay person who has a history
of any kind of disability, or lives on a low income (no matter what
the source), or is in any other unfair way, REJECTED by gay
sisters/brothers at large...I invite you to get in touch with me...and
we will attempt to build an effective support group.
And shame on you, Eric Payne, for distorting the issues around
me re. newsgroup participation...merely to bolster some ignorant
statements about how "violent" I supposedly am. I did not cease
participation in a gay group, because someone supposedly
"revealed" the truth about me. For one: such information is freely
available ON MY OWN WEBSITE. For two: I do not constantly
participate in newsgroups or lists, as I just don't have the time to
do so. Instead, I post in cycles...a few months on, a few months
off.
I don't appreciate you putting me on the defense, in order to
counter your blatant acts of defamation...for which the moderator
should have stopped you. But I DO appreciate that such public
lists allow me to speak freely for my conscience, that it may help
unshackle and empower *other gay people who REALLY CARE
about winning our equality...by virtue of such a potentially wide
audience.
I am a pioneer, who stands his ground against abuse from
ignorant people...which, sadly, sometimes comes out of the very
same group he is struggling to liberate to the best of his means.
But that's all part of the entire picture, which I accept.
---
Lavender-Velvet Revolution
http://surf.to/gaybible
**********
Bruce Garrett
>> I figured if I was going to be spending the bulk of my on-line time in
>> the middle of people cutting each other, my conscience wouldn't suffer
>> as much if I spent it cutting the phobes.
EK> Another excellent point, and thanks for making it, Bruce. Why do I
EK> bother arguing with gays that I see as sell-outs? Because they
EK> are still gay, and that is where my heart is: my community.
Kinda 'tough love' or 'truth in love'...as it were. Swell. Listen
guy...I grew up in a Baptist household, and I've been to my share of tent
revivals and I've heard my share of fire and brimstone you're all going to
hell unless you get down on your knees and repent and obey sermons, and I
gotta tell ya, the only people who listen to them are either true believers
already, or the insecure who are looking for an emotional dictator to take
the place of the self they lost somewhere along the road. To be a
minimally successful hell fire and damnation preacher, you have to reach an
understanding with the devil, that you won't try too hard to actually
awaken a genuine spiritual longing inside of your audience, lest it runs
the hell away from you.
I've listened to a lot of preachers. I've seen people behind the
pulpit who aroused fear in the pews, and I've seen ones that inspired
courage in the place of fear. I've seen them speak to the human capacity
to hate the outsider, and I've seen others speak to the human ability to
love thy neighbor. I've seen the disciples of the god that hates, and it's
striking how completely disconnected from the world they are...how utterly
disinterested they are, in anything that exists beyond the boarders that
compass out that hate. What seems obsession to the rest of us, is simply
the only world they have left after hate has locked them inside its
fortress prison. Think of the deliverance, the liberation, the sweeping
spiritual exaltation of first love, and compare it to the closed barbed
wire landscapes where the god of hate's faithful live, and tell me where
you think this movement's promise land is guy. I tell you, it isn't
anywhere that people are not supposed to love their neighbor. And I mean
the heterosexual ones too.
Charles DeGaulle once said that patriotism is where the love of
your fellow countrymen comes first, and nationalism where hatred of
everyone else comes first. Correct me if I'm wrong here, but it sure looks
to me like what you're calling a 'sell-out' is simply anyone who refuses to
place that hatred of anyone else, specifically heterosexuals, first. But
this is not a struggle between gays and straights. If you can still
get the door open, take a stroll outside your fortress sometime. This is
not a struggle between gays and straights. It's about the impulse to love,
verses the reflex to hate. It's about freedom of conscience, verses
dictatorship of the mind and spirit. I'm sorry that you find people less
accepting of your idiosyncrasies these days, but I'm not sure I would label
a knee jerk hostility toward heterosexuals as an idiosyncrasy, as opposed
to a simple and uncharming prejudice...and I'm not at all sure how
'progressive' a voice can be, that advocates the segregation of gay people,
which, again correct me if I'm wrong here, you do. It's one thing to have
a righteous anger, and another to just vent hostility, and maybe I've been
consistently missing something here but I could swear that's all I've ever
seen you do on line. If I'm wrong about this, don't just tell me, show me.
They say that love is blind, but no, love is accepting and
enduring, it's hate that's blind. Have you ever loved, and been loved in
return? Then take this for what you think it's worth guy. Find a quiet
place and recall that love. Remember how it felt to love, and be loved.
There's the promise land. Can you still see it? Any place that does not
have room for that simple, beautiful, sacred bond between lovers, whether
they're gay or straight, is not the promise land. Any place where people
cannot look into a stranger's face, and see something of themselves in it,
and love them as their neighbor, is not the promise land.
---
-Bruce Garrett
http://www.pobox.com/~bgarrett
Disclaimer: I do not speak for the homosexual
conspiracy. I only work here.
**********
Ezekiel J. Krahlin
<bgar...@pobox.com> wrote:
<<
A person with far too much time on their hands to indulge their
passion for poisoning the well doesn't necessarily have to be
living off a welfare, or disabilities check.
>>
Excellent point. In fact, most don't live on a stipend...they are
capitalist hogs, funneling their nasty lucre into anti-gay causes,
and other hateful ideologies. Let's target the real enemies, not the
perceived ones! For goodness sake, let us also open our hearts
to our own gay sisters/brothers who are disabled, of color, or
"different" in any other way from our stifling status-quo clique that
has grown to enormous proportions since the advent of
guppiedom.
<<
And vicious gay on gay flame wars are exactly why, for nearly a
decade, I preferred participating in it, to soc.motss. I figured if I
was going to be spending the bulk of my on-line time in the middle
of people cutting each other, my conscience wouldn't suffer as
much if I spent it cutting the phobes.
>>
Another excellent point, and thanks for making it, Bruce. Why do I
bother arguing with gays that I see as sell-outs? Because they
are still gay, and that is where my heart is: my community. Even
when I feel a gay person is terribly wrong in her or his point of
view, I fee it is STILL WORTH IT, to argue and not shut off
communications. On the other hand, hetero homophobes aren't
worth the dirt they stand on, IMO.
But I also want to point out how this thread is a good example of
how non-"ordinary" gays like myself have to *fight to gain a voice,
and acceptance, within our own community. This is a shame, and
*must be rectified. We have lost that great sense of diversity that
flourished in earlier times. I remember how well accepted and
appreciated I was, prior to 1985...with all my idiosycrasies and
disabilities intact and "out"! How many more progressive voices
like mine are suppressed in gay politics...and thus, have
drastically slowed down the advancement of our cause?
---
Lavender-Velvet Revolution
http://surf.to/gaybible
**********
Marcus Winberg
>Another excellent point, and thanks for making it, Bruce. Why do I
>bother arguing with gays that I see as sell-outs? Because they
>are still gay, and that is where my heart is: my community. Even
>when I feel a gay person is terribly wrong in her or his point of
>view, I fee it is STILL WORTH IT, to argue and not shut off
>communications. On the other hand, hetero homophobes aren't
>worth the dirt they stand on, IMO.
This is a strange list. I haven't seen this much vitriol even in the worst
of the 'phobepools on Usenet. What's going on?
And, Ezekiel, who are you to judge anyone worthy of being "gay enough" or
not? Who the f**k is worthy enough for that judge-role?
Setting up a set of credentials for who's allowed in our community is a
first step toward a homosexual gulag, and that's certainly not something I
want to participate in. Our community is *not*, and should *never* be a
partisan political community, because that's the best way to fragment,
splinter, and disenfranchise homosexuals.
We have a set of common demands, whether we are liberal, socialist,
conservative, or even communist. We want real equality. Let's work for
that, and let the parties bicker about the spin of it.
Cheers,
Marcus Winberg
Ezekiel J. Krahlin
<jeric...@home.com> wrote:
<<
it's become increasingly difficult to find archived Usenet postings
via Deja/Google, etc. without knowing exactly where to look in the
first place.
>>
Thus making it quite easy to distort what was discussed in a
thread that no one can view. You are in the process of slandering
me, and I don't think anyone but gossipy pinheads will be
impressed.
<<
In that thread, Mr. EK was posting, literally, dozens of messages
a day,
>>
"Literally"? No way. It was a heated debate, and I was certainly in
the thick of it. But I never posted more than 5 or 6 articles on any
given day...just too much work for me to move at a faster pace,
what with all the *thought I put into it. But then again, since the
thread you refer to is inaccessible, you are free to demonize me
as much as you want.
Mr. Klorese sent me a message that I need to stop name calling. I
thought name-calling meant using bigoted phrases like "f*ggot",
"n*gger", and "b*tch". Apparantly, it also includes some of my
innovative terms like "bloated bag of homophobia", "arrogant
brownshirt" and "back stabbing queer turncoat".
<<
each getting more and more extreme,
>>
I can't imagine what you mean by this. I guess you want everyone
to leave this to their imagination, eh? Stir up the bigotry, eh? This
smacks of the black art of Mein Kampf.
Of course, it's beyond you to post any actual *quotes on my part,
isn't it? How terribly convenient of you. Since Natailie started this
latest trend of false statements with no substance, it only
behooves certain ignorant participants to carry on this ignoble
tradition.
<<
until he was, ultimately, calling for all gays to perform acts of
violence against non-gays, simply to show straights we were
capable of standing up for ourselves, physically.
>>
I was speaking of self defense. We should not allow
heterocentrics to push us around. We should BASH BACK.
Carrying pepper spray is an answer that suits a lot more gays,
than brandishing a gun, however legal.
But why not let readers decide for themselves? The thread I
believe you speak of was called "Political Will", started by one
gay separatist called "Kingsix" (a reference to "Kinsey 6"). I just
uploaded the entire thread at:
http://www.2xtreme.net/jwd/Zeke/Political_Will.htm
(Please be patient; it's 1.2mb long.)
All headers are intact, to minimize suspicions that I may have
fudged messages in this thread. This way, one may contact
certain participants, if you feel the need to verify.
There, you can see for yourself how many times a day I actually
*did post, and whether or not I have proposed violent solutions to
homophobia. The only *violence I have ever suggested, to the
best of my recollection, is in the act of self-defense...which I do
not consider criminal or "inappropriate".
And if this doesn't turn out to be the very same thread...well, it
was definitely the same newsgroup and time period...and you will
nonetheless get a good idea of my viewpoints on the gay issue,
and on violence.
<<
In other messages, he called for open, bloody revolution on the
streets.
>>
Well, I did call for taking this to the streets...and the churchs...and
all other institutions that hold sway over our freedoms. This
"bloody" part I see as coming from our enemies...if it does at all.
But I don't think fear of shedding some blood should thwart our
activism. It didn't for many who participated in the 60's Free
Speech Movements, including Stonewall (and later, the White
Night Riots), and it shouldn't this time around.
<<
and the psychological impairment from which he suffered was,
according to EK, somehow related to the "struggle" between gays
and straights and its effect on him, personally, making him
incapable of employment.
>>
It seems to have impaired you, too.
<<
Perhaps it's subjective, but I think anyone who posts fifty/sixty
messages a day to any newsgroup, no matter the topic, can be
considered
"obsessive."
>>
A bald lie like that is *indeed very subjective. Far be it for me to
name-call, but I find folks who maliciously distort the real facts,
and defame a decent person in the process...are pure, medieval
slime that have no place in a civilized world. Unfortunately, our
world is not particularly civilized.
<<
Just as the hundrdeds of anti-gay postings that appear from the
same four or five people equating homosexual orientation with
pedophilia - in my opinion - are obsessive.
>>
Gee, thanks for defaming me further, by comparing me to blatant
homophobes who render gay newsgroups uninhabitable. You
have gone beyond name-calling, to defamatory and slanderous
accusations. This argument strikes me as your typical
conservative queer utterly stomping out any liberal voice,
because it gets his panties up in a bunch. No matter that gay
rights lay in the balance, and what damage can be irrevocably
done to our cause, by such petty rantings of right-wing (though
gay) manipulators.
<<
I have never applied two different sets of criteria to make a
personal judgement
>>
Until now.
<<
So, yes, EK is just as obsessive as Fred Cherry, or the
"Reverend," or anyone else who fits the mold.
>>
Anyone who is familiar with Fred or "Reverend" already knows
what a gross defamation of my character that you are attempting
to achieve.
<<
As for "insane"? Again, a judgement call... but anyone who calls
for murder and somehow justifies mass killings as somehow
advancing civil rights, in my opinion, is not playing with a full
deck... and is somewhat supported by EK's admission regarding
the source of and reason for his income.
>>
Again, you are living proof that prejudice, bigotry, and defamation
do not contain themselves with the borders of the heterocentric
masses. I am a thorn in your side...and as much as touching *any
part of you disgusts me (albeit symbolically)...I am damn PROUD.
Now, run along and have a good day (the sun is shining on
homophobes and queers alike; and on queer turncoats), and
leave the *real work up to us men and women.
---
Lavender-Velvet Revolution
http://surf.to/gaybible
**********
Ezekiel J. Krahlin
<nhimm...@hotmail.com> said:
<<
You are the one who started the internet pissing contest.
>>
You are totally off-base (no surprise there). It is Natalie who
got me pissed, when she presented her diabolically-subjective
definition of violence, to include certain forms of clearly non-
violent dissent. This is an outrage, and she needed to be called to
the carpet for that one! Instead of backing off from her mean-
spirited and arrogant position, others have joined her, to decry the
idea of a group of gays hollering down a church service as
somehow violent.
And don't forget this: that Natalie *insists that such a gay
demonstration is WORSE than the violence perpetrated against
gays, by these church-goers...which of course includes REAL
BODILY VIOLENCE AND MURDER. If that isn't enough to get
your dander up (and more), then I'd say you're doing a poor job
speaking out on behalf of gay/lesbian equality. Or did you
miss that choice little tidbit? Let me refresh your memory:
---begin Natalie's quote dated Sun, 06 May 2001 01:52:21 -0400:
You see, disrupting a worship service IS violent. No, it's not hitting
people or shooting people, but it does violence to the spirit of
those who do find what's going on sacred, violence that many
(including myself) would consider far worse than physical
violence.
---end of quote
And to pile hubris upon arrogance, Natalie claims to be speaking
ON BEHALF OF MAHATMAN GANDHI...and this, without even
posting one single, quote by Gandhi, that might be relevant to the
issue at hand. Talk about name-dropping!
<<
Think about that next time you send one of your "brilliant"
rebuttals out to all and sundry.
>>
What? Isn't that exactly what mailing lists are for? That "all and
sundry" hear your points of view? Have you been out in the sun
too long?
<<
You really get a charge out of feeling persecuted, don't you?
>>
Not at all. I am outraged. Is that too much for you to grasp? You
get your jollies by mucking up important discussions, in a sick
attempt to thwart the progress of gay rights
(perhaps just *male gay rights). So be it! I can deal with anything;
and that's why I'm glad I'm here. I am all too glad to be a thorn in
the side of right-wing homophobes, as well as those I perceive as
doing a terrible disservice to our Gay Family, whether intentional
or not. Thus, I channel my rage to the source.
Natalie Davis
>And don't forget this: that Natalie *insists that such a gay
>demonstration is WORSE than the violence perpetrated against
>gays, by these church-goers...which of course includes REAL
>BODILY VIOLENCE AND MURDER.
---begin Natalie's quote dated Sun, 06 May 2001 01:52:21 -0400:
>You see, disrupting a worship service IS violent. No, it's not hitting
>people or shooting people, but it does violence to the spirit of
>those who do find what's going on sacred, violence that many
>(including myself) would consider far worse than physical
>violence.
I don't see that I insisted anything in all fairness. And as I've said a
couple of times previously, I liken it to being in an abusive relationship.
When someone hurts my soul, I find it more painful and more harmful than if
they hurt my body. That's what I believe. That's far different from saying
your disrupting a church is worse than what those Wyoming killers did to
Matthew Shepard. Of course that would be ludicrous.
And good for you, earlier, for cleverly repeating your soul-damaging
insults on-list. Because I sense it will please your mightily, I'll admit
that you caused me intense hurt.
And thank you, Roger, for writing to him off-list. I appreciate that more
than you know.
>I channel my rage to the source.
No, Ezekiel. Channelling your rage to the source would have been slamming
me via private mail. Be honest for a change. You fight to kill. You lie and
misrepresent. You throw words like daggers, put yourself on a pedestal, and
congratulate yourself for being a fierce warrior. And you do it in front of
an audience in order to exponentially increase the damage done to your
prey. Send me your address, so I can slice off my ears and mail them to you.
============================
Ain't no time to hate.