[GN] Thursday Questions and Thoughts
Richard
writing so much this week? Well, I can answer that. The stars are just
lined up. I awoke this morning at 1:11 AM with a splitting migraine
headache at a 10 pain level. Two hours later and the pain is bearable
but laying down triggers escalation. So I put on my shades and hit the
computer. It is a quiet activity that does not cause me pain.
And with time to kill, I check out the maps of rights on Us Queers
(http://www.usqueers.com/ ) It is worth a look. And I remember the
post of yesterday concerning the fact that it only took France 56 years
to remember that queers were deported and exterminated during World War
II. Only 56 years. And I remember the trouble brewing in Maryland
with a referendum against our being and families. And NGLTF celebration
that 26 states in the USA now don't legally screw us. Leaving 24 that
do.
Time to kill plus review of facts equals long posts from Richard. Not
as articulate as Marc, nor as radical and thought provoking as Zeke and
Tom Keske, nor as heartfelt as Natalie and Russ. But all the same, its
my way of coping with migraines in the early morning hours.
And what's my thought this AM? It is time for aggressive action on a
national level. I am NOT talking about a March on Washington. Not at
all.
I am talking about selecting a target, a goal, and then doing some
serious organizing and actions. Remember the hundreds of students who
headed into the deep south during their spring breaks and summer
vacations to register voters and organize boycotts and raise hell in the
sixties? Remember the confrontations of righteousness versus racists?
I do. Now maybe the straight students won't come out for queers in
Texas or Virginia - but maybe some will. And 100% is never the goal.
100 queer young people could really raise some serious hell in Richmond
or Roanoke or Austin or Cincinnati. And internet activism is just
barely tapped.
But I honestly believe the time has come to provoke another Stonewall,
to aggressively demand and take what is rightfully ours.
It may mean no longer allowing the oppressors to define our families -
file taxes as "married" if we are married. Check the "married" box all
over the place if we are married. and when law enforcement or the
courts deny us our marriage and families, fighting back in the streets.
Going as a crowd to a straight bar in Roanoke and dancing with our
partners and doing everything straights do in bars only with our partner
of choice. Registering every queer to vote in Austin or disrupting
church services in a city that preaches hate.
I do believe it is time to ratchet up resistance in the USA and to
demand military action to stop the holocaust developing in Africa.
I am saying it is time to resist and to pick a fight.
What do you think?
Richard
San Francisco
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Patrick Ferris
> I do believe it is time to ratchet up resistance in the USA and to
> demand military action to stop the holocaust developing in Africa.
Could you document this holocaust for us?
> disrupting
> church services in a city that preaches hate.
> What do you think?
If your sense of ethics allows you to disrespect people's sacred
ceremonies, then I can't imagine that your sense of ethics really prevents
you from travelling to Virginia for necessary medical needs. And totally
discounting the existence of supportive heterosexuals anywhere, ever is
dishonest, ungrateful and cynical. But hopefully attributable to your
current state of health. So what I think is that you should:
Listen to your mother!
Patrick
Wolf : Big Bad, The
>
> I am talking about selecting a target, a goal, and then doing some
> serious organizing and actions. Remember the hundreds of students who
> headed into the deep south during their spring breaks and summer
> vacations to register voters and organize boycotts and raise hell in the
> sixties? Remember the confrontations of righteousness versus racists?
> I do.
Well I don't remember them, but I read about them growing up and remember my
Mom talking about them. Imagine my surprise when I grew up and found out that
nobody seemed to care about anything within my peer group. I'm here with my
signs, now where exactly did my protest movement go? Ohhhhh they're all
cruising the Castro district in black nylon shirts...got it.
I'm being snarky, there are lots of great folks doing heavy duty work here,
but the number of know-nothing-of-gay-history, ignorant, apolitical gay guys
in this City is a constant source of disappointment to me. I had one guy tell
me "Just because I'm gay doesn't mean I want to be politically active."
*sound of forehead slap*
I understand his right to not participate, but his attitude about it was
appalling. I tried to explain to him that perhaps there's more to gay life
than the right to take E and go to raves in black spandex...but he was already
off cruising some guy in a "sleeps well with others" t-shirt.
> Now maybe the straight students won't come out for queers in
> Texas or Virginia - but maybe some will. And 100% is never the goal.
> 100 queer young people could really raise some serious hell in Richmond
> or Roanoke or Austin or Cincinnati.
Here's my take on it, just fwiw. I moved to the Bay area from Oklahoma a
little over a year ago. The rents here are unreal, traffic is terrible and
homeless people crap in the fountains down by the Embarcadero (all as reported
on the news last week). I don't care. I'll live in a refrigerator box in this
town before I'd move to a house anywhere else. It has gotten UGLY out there.
Oklahoma had a small pride community - we were missionaries in a hostile
land. We were picketed and threatened constantly. We were driven off the road.
I was told that it was better for my child to be killed outright and go to
heaven innocent than to have them grow up with me and go to Hell later. My
friend's cat was killed and thrown on his front porch with a hate message. Did
the cops care? Nope. They were more interested in whether or not he and his
boyfriend might've been breaking the anti-sodomy laws. Our car was keyed, our
friend's car was wrecked, people we knew were constantly being beaten up or
harassed. The point of this is - I don't know that we can salvage those areas
of the country anymore and I don't know what we can do about it. I don't think
your average GLBT in the west knows how bad it's gotten in the south and
midwest. We moved because we were in daily fear for our lives. We moved
because the police were on the side of the religious bigots who made the laws
specifically to persecute us. There was no point in even protesting - we'd
all turn out to vote and it would do NOTHING. I don't know that we could, in
conscience, ask students in places like those to have a rally because it would
put them in greater jeopardy than they are at present. I think in Austin you'd
have a good percentage, but Austin is an island in the middle of all the great
homophobia that is Texas. My straight friends in Dallas refused to come to any
queer themed event because (direct quote) "I don't want to be at ground zero
when they blow you guys up."
If we tried for say, Atlanta or Richmond or Little Rock, I have no idea what
would happen, but I shudder to think. They -really- need another Stonewall in
those places.
> And internet activism is just
> barely tapped.
Now here's where I get really frustrated. We could be using this medium a lot
more effectively than we are. Gay.com really frustrates me especially because
they could use that forum so much more effectively for activism - but it seems
that the issue at gay.com isn't activism if it ever was - it's money. We've
become a nice little easily accessed niche market for some company's new line
of pre-fabricated dance c.d.'s.
> But I honestly believe the time has come to provoke another Stonewall,
> to aggressively demand and take what is rightfully ours.
Well they're not just gonna give it to us, especially not currently. The
narrow minded margin feel they've won the right to pistol whip us for the next
four years. I, for one, am not going to lie there like a good little fag and
let them.
> It may mean no longer allowing the oppressors to define our families -
> file taxes as "married" if we are married. Check the "married" box all
> over the place if we are married. and when law enforcement or the
> courts deny us our marriage and families, fighting back in the streets.
>
> Going as a crowd to a straight bar in Roanoke and dancing with our
> partners and doing everything straights do in bars only with our partner
> of choice. Registering every queer to vote in Austin or disrupting
> church services in a city that preaches hate.
I don't want to disrupt anyone else's church services (even though they
constantly disrupt mine) and your list of activities sounds to me like we'll
end up going to jail, over and over and over again. *sigh* This is where it
seems to hit for me. We need things that will actually matter to people
without getting us under the executioner's ax in places where they don't care
how many queers they mow down.
Right now, I'm fighting for the right to sit on the front steps of my
apartment with my partner and not have kids go by in cars screaming "FAGS!" at
me. And that's IN the Bay area - home of the super-Pride parade and all things
rainbow tinted. I'm interested right now in shoring up the homeland here in
California. Texas, Oklahoma and places like that can go *bleeeeeep* itself as
far as I'm concerned. I'm more interested in forming some kind of queer
underground railroad to set up a website where we could pay for every little
queer boy and girl in the South and Midwest who wants out to hop a greyhound
to a safehouse here in California. We can pack the city counsels and
government boards with queers of all sorts. We could re-write policy dealing
with queer issues and pass a statewide any sex marriage ordinance. When we're
the queerest state of them all... we can secede.
KIDDING.
or not.
Point is, there is much to be done right here in the queerest city of them all
without picking fights across country in places where nobody has our backs.
Let's take and hold the Bay area, solidly, and then slowly creep out over the
rest of the west coast, moving like kudzu to choke the South off on it's own
vitriol. By the time we're done, if we do it well and thoroughly, the
attitudes of the folks who are in the last states to be annexed by the Queer
Tide will be seen as so backwards thinking that it won't take much effort at
all to tip them backwards into the history books.
>
>
> I do believe it is time to ratchet up resistance in the USA and to
> demand military action to stop the holocaust developing in Africa.
I'm with you on that one, but then, I have been since 1987.
> I am saying it is time to resist and to pick a fight.
>
> What do you think?
>
> Richard
> San Francisco
I hear you brother, and I'm there too. I say the take over plot to annex
California to our purposes is a good one in the meantime, though. We need a
place with a lot of sun and beaches, a thriving entertainment industry...and
if we can pack this state with queers, we'll eventually outnumber the straight
folks in at least one place on earth.
Kai
somewhat east of the Bay
--
If you can't convince them, confuse them. (Harry S. Truman)
--
Eric Bohlman
>Going as a crowd to a straight bar in Roanoke and dancing
with our
>partners and doing everything straights do in bars only with
our partner
>of choice. Registering every queer to vote in Austin or
disrupting
>church services in a city that preaches hate.
Registering voters and getting them active in local politics
would be *very* productive. It's important to remember that
in local elections, only a tiny minority of the general
population usually votes at all, and therefore a numerical
minority of the population can have disproportionate
influence in local politics. In fact, that's how yahoos
typically get elected and stay in office; they've got a small
group of fanatic supporters who, unlike the rest of the
population, don't yawn at electoral work.
I should hope, for example, that in Florida this year a lot
of local elected officials are going to find their heads
rolling over the election fiasco; these local officials are
the ones who make the decisions on how polling places are set
up, etc. The only way to do this is painstaking organizing
at the local level.
I personally find that disrupting church services and the
like is just counterproductive venting and attention seeking.
It just solidifies our enemies.
>I do believe it is time to ratchet up resistance in the USA
and to
>demand military action to stop the holocaust developing in
Africa.
I assume you're talking about the various African dictators
who have announced that they intend to expel all GLBT people
from their countries. Anyone working with Amnesty
International on this?
www.usQueers.com
> California. Texas, Oklahoma and places like that can go *bleeeeeep* itself
as
> far as I'm concerned. I'm more interested in forming some kind of queer
> underground railroad to set up a website where we could pay for every
little
> queer boy and girl in the South and Midwest who wants out to hop a
greyhound
> to a safehouse here in California
There apparently is no such thing as a real "safehouse" here in California,
if your own experience on your own front porch is an indication, eh?
There is such a thing here in California, and it can use money and
volunteers, because they are constantly having to avoid the police, their
doctors, and their parents, let alone landlords who don't like it when they
find out how many runaway teens are staying in their place. They are running
from their parents, from the police, and from mental hospitals their parents
are putting them in to be treated for the catch-all "sexual identity
disorder" (which is covered by insurance companies) and should rightly be
called by the same name -- "reparative therapy" -- as that crap that people
like Paulk are pushing on religious followers who want to be able to say
they are "x-gays."
I've only read and promoted stories about these kids, and have no contacts
with those who are helping them, but we would protect the anonymity of
anybody who wants to tell the world about the reality of these kids today.
The following stories first came out in 1998, when all I had was my little
FIGHT website.
Articles on FIGHT website:
Phony Psychiatric "Reparative Therapy" For Queer Kids
Kids forcibly hospitalized by parents & psychs for "Gender Identity
Disorder"
http://members.home.net/trubble/queerteens.htm
Underground Railroad keeps the kids who escape hospitals off the streets
(The link to this story http://www.sfbg.com/News/32/27/Features/out.html is
down temporarily. I've written to the editor of the San Francisco Bay
Guardian to get an updated URL. She told me a while back it would be staying
online -- Meanwhile, there's a synopsis on this page:
http://www.sfbg.com/News/32/27/index.html and an editorial about the same
story here: http://www.sfbg.com/News/32/27/Editorials/index.html )
Also, if anybody needs ongoing free webspace for efforts to help kids like
these, I'm here. Talk to me.
I still have stuff over there on FIGHT that I need to give to usQueers.com
and start getting updated, like the Queer Apartheid, Africa stuff, though
not much has really changed since then over there. Surprised? Read the stuff
at: http://members.home.net/trubble/queerapartheid.htm . It's dated and not
presented in the best way, but it is accurate.
Allan
your...@usQueers.com
http://www.usQueers.com/commentary/declaration01.html
Butt Plug
business is to pursue a bankruptcy through lititgation
strategy. Keep suing them for everything possible:
malpractice, sexual assault (for puting the electric
cuff around that boy's cock), and especially insurance
fraud.
After all, if they are lying to the insurance company
about the diagnosis to get reimbursement, it ought to
be considered civil and criminal racketeering, in the
US at least.
Also, we could attack the licensing credentials of the
"doctors". Try to get their licenses revoked, even
though the profession always protects even its most
incompetent practitioners.
Or we could make them 'radioactive': prove to their
medical malpractice insurers that those doctors will
always be getting sued, malking them uninsurable and
unemployable. Also, we could pressure any medical
employer by threatening to sue them if we find him
repeating his fraudulent actions later. If we could
drive one doctor out of medicine altogether, like we
drove Anita Bryant out of show business, it could
cripple the industry.
I know for a fact it could work. In Dallas in the mid
1990s several for profit lock down hospitals were
raided by the FBI for defrauding military-dependant
insurance programs. Most of them later closed.
It would be expensive though. Litigation always is.
Plus, lawsuit restriction laws and tougher standards
for introducing expert witnesses could really hinder
progress.
Perhaps we could form a foundation to bankroll it.
Questions, comments?
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
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Richard
>
> > I do believe it is time to ratchet up resistance in the USA and to
> > demand military action to stop the holocaust developing in Africa.
>
> Could you document this holocaust for us?
I am referring to statements by President Mugabe of Zimbabwe and
especially to recent and past statements by President Nujoma of Namibia
who calls for the leaders of all villages and towns and cities to deport
and expel all homosexuals. If I am remembering my history properly, the
labeling and deportation of Jews and other "undesirables" was a critical
first step in the Holocaust of mid-20th century Germany plus a critical
action in the pograms against Jews in Russia, England, Spain, etc. in
centuries past. This information is easily obtained with a decent
search engine on the Net to find many original news sources. I also
note that I can only find formal protests of this atrocity from Sweden.
I also wrote:
> > disrupting church services in a city that preaches hate.
>
> > What do you think?
and Patrick cattily replied:
> If your sense of ethics allows you to disrespect people's sacred
> ceremonies, then I can't imagine that your sense of ethics really prevents you from travelling to Virginia for necessary medical needs. And totally discounting the existence of supportive heterosexuals anywhere, ever is dishonest, ungrateful and cynical. But hopefully attributable to your current state of health. So what I think is that you should:
>
> Listen to your mother!
Well, I'll ask you to leave my Mom out of your replies to me. It is not
ethical outrage that prevents me from traveling to Virginia. It is flat
out unadulterated fear. They harass and arrest queers in Virginia and
similar states and I don't want to be arrested for loving my husband.
Civil disobedience is entirely different to me. In an organized effort,
I may be willing to face arrest in Virginia.
and I never totally discounted the existence of supportive
heterosexuals. I just said that I did not see any heterosexuals
sweating blood or taking initiative in the fight for freedom for
homosexuals in the USA. Since writing that, I have come up with one -
Steven Speilberg when he dumped the Boy Scouts. From all appearances
this was a self initiated and self motivated act of a heterosexual to
fight discrimination against homosexuals. Can you name others? I have
straight friends that come protests and rallies and meetings for
homosexual rights. But they are not self motivated and self initiated
in such acts; they come in support. In the fight to free the USA slaves
there were many non-African Americans who were self motivated and
initiated actions to abolish slavery. In the civil rights wars of the
sixties, there were many non-African American leaders who stood up to
end discrimination. I just don't see that in the battles for homosexual
freedom.
Can you tell me some self motivated and self initiatived straight people
who are forming organizations for homosexual freedoms? I just thought
of PFLAG which comes close if not hitting the mark. Others?
The church issue is bigger and I will address that separately.
Richard
San Francisco
Patrick Ferris
> Patrick Ferris Replied
>
> > Could you document this holocaust for us?
>
> I am referring to statements by President Mugabe of Zimbabwe and
> especially to recent and past statements by President Nujoma of Namibia
> who calls for the leaders of all villages and towns and cities to deport
> and expel all homosexuals.
And disturbing statements they are. But your posts seemed to imply that
these statements were already being translated into action, that
"queers are rounded up in Africa", that there are concentration camps.
I have not seen the evidence for this.
> and Patrick cattily replied:
>
> > If your sense of ethics allows you to disrespect people's sacred
> > ceremonies, then I can't imagine that your sense of ethics really prevents you from travelling to Virginia for necessary medical needs. And totally discounting the existence of supportive heterosexuals anywhere, ever is dishonest, ungrateful and cynical. But hopefully attributable to your current state of health. So what I think is that you should:
> >
> > Listen to your mother!
>
> Well, I'll ask you to leave my Mom out of your replies to me.
Cheap shot. Set people up for a flame. If your mother is out of bounds
then keep her out of here. She sounds like a sensible woman to me. I have
been dealing with recurrent severe headaches since I was a teenager. I
know what those headaches do to my moods. You usually seem to be a
thoughtful individual, so I gave you the benefit of the doubt and assumed
your headaches were doing the talking recently.
> It is not
> ethical outrage that prevents me from traveling to Virginia. It is flat
> out unadulterated fear. They harass and arrest queers in Virginia and
> similar states and I don't want to be arrested for loving my husband.
You're going to visit a doctor. Let's be real.
> and I never totally discounted the existence of supportive
> heterosexuals. I just said that I did not see any heterosexuals
> sweating blood or taking initiative in the fight for freedom for
> homosexuals in the USA. Since writing that, I have come up with one -
> Steven Speilberg when he dumped the Boy Scouts.
I'm sure there are plenty of examples. I think Clinton's attempt to get
gays in the military was a disaster, but his original intention was good.
He certainly took a lot of heat for it, from both sides of the issue. An
early advocate for gays within the psychiatric profession was a woman
whose name was (I think) Evelyn Hooker. Havelock Ellis? Trudeau? (Or was
he a friend of Dorothy?)
> From all appearances
> this was a self initiated and self motivated act of a heterosexual to
> fight discrimination against homosexuals. Can you name others? I have
> straight friends that come protests and rallies and meetings for
> homosexual rights. But they are not self motivated and self initiated
> in such acts; they come in support.
Sounds like more of a contribution than many gays make.
> I just thought
> of PFLAG which comes close if not hitting the mark. Others?
'nuff said.
Patrick
Jwe...@aol.com
fer...@biosgi.wustl.edu writes:
> > and I never totally discounted the existence of supportive
> > heterosexuals. I just said that I did not see any heterosexuals
> > sweating blood or taking initiative in the fight for freedom for
> > homosexuals in the USA. Since writing that, I have come up with one -
> > Steven Speilberg when he dumped the Boy Scouts.
>
Just because you havn't seen or heard of any doesn't mean they don't exist.
What about the catholic nun who was chastised by the Vatican? Or the
Reverend John Buerhens, the president of the Unitarian Universalist
Association, who has fought for several years now with the Boy Scouts
regarding their homophobic policies. See http://www.uua.org/news/scouts/
Or for that matter, the rest of the straights who have been fighting that
fight, including the entire boy scout troop, from Illinois I believe that
returned their charter because they couldn't support the current policy. In
my own church there are many people who for over a decade now have provided
meals for AIDS patients, a huge project, which has endured. It is run and
funded primarily by hets. Just because you are not aware of something,
doesn't mean it's not happening.
blessings,
JoAnne
Ezekiel J. Krahlin
<< But your posts seemed to imply that these statements were already
being translated into action, that "queers are rounded up in Africa", that
there are concentration camps. I have not seen the evidence for this. >>
That's because you can't see the forest for the trees, Patrick. Don't you
get it? The entire *society is one, big concentration camp for gay people.
They are terrorized, murdered, denied even basic civil decency. If any
one of these people made her/himself visible by wearing a pink triangle,
do you think she/he'd fare any better than in a conventional
concentration camp?
And do you think we are too far removed in the U.S., from such a thing
getting so bad, here? If so, you have your head in the sand...we have
already arrived!
---
Lavender-Velvet Revolution
http://surf.to/gaybible
Patrick Ferris
> Can you tell me some self motivated and self initiatived straight people
> who are forming organizations for homosexual freedoms?
Actually, as I give this more thought there is also a bit of a Catch-22
here. Some would feel that it is not entirely appropriate for a person
from outside an oppressed group to take the leadership role or set the
political agenda for a group of people he doesn't actually belong to.
Patrick
Natalie Davis
>Richard wrote:
>
> > Can you tell me some self motivated and self initiatived straight people
> > who are forming organizations for homosexual freedoms?
>
> Actually, as I give this more thought there is also a bit of a Catch-22
>here. Some would feel that it is not entirely appropriate for a person
>from outside an oppressed group to take the leadership role or set the
>political agenda for a group of people he doesn't actually belong to.
And don't forget there are a lot of queers out there who figuratively spit
on hets who sincerely want to help out. I know so many heterosexual people
who volunteer their time and money to help out on pro-gay efforts. They do
it because they really believe in equality and freedom and they feel a duty
to fight alongside with us--they see the cause of equality for all as
everyone's cause, and I agree with them. It infuriates me when glbt people
insult them or demean them for the "sin" of not being queer. It's
especially rotten when bigoted queers ('cause that's what I think they
are) insinuate that these folks must be secretly gay or else they wouldn't
help. My response is always along the lines of, Wait--ours is the decent
and moral cause. Any decent heterosexual, homosexual, or bisexual *should*
be committing to our effort. But why should they if they have to be abused
for wanting to do their part? Luckily, the allies I know just ignore the
nasty people. But still, it isn't right. Do I understand why they carry
resentment? Of course. But that still doesn't make it right.
>Patrick
>
>**********
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Eric Bohlman
On both sides of any controversy, there's going to be a non-
trivial number of combatants who are there not because of a
strong commitment to the cause but because they need enemies.
They're essentially "professional opponents" (my mother once
remarked regarding Joseph Scheidler, an anti-abortion
extremist from Chicago, that the main reason he was so
committed to the "pro-life" cause was that he was
temperamentally unsuited to holding a job anywhere else).
Alison Hymes
are right on target here. That is what happens all too often in our sphere.
Alison
> Actually, as I give this more thought there is also a bit of a Catch-22
>here. Some would feel that it is not entirely appropriate for a person
>from outside an oppressed group to take the leadership role or set the
>political agenda for a group of people he doesn't actually belong to.
>
>Patrick
Ezekiel J. Krahlin
<<
Actually, as I give this more thought there is also a bit of a Catch-22
here. Some would feel that it is not entirely appropriate for a person from
outside an oppressed group to take the leadership role or set the
political agenda for a group of people he doesn't actually belong to.
>>
And what a great cop-out for any hetero to look the other way!
This attitude you describe of an outsider hesitating to take a leadership
role for another group, is quite misconstrued. Since the revolutionary
60's there have been many groups connecting with the causes of other
groups. So there is NO EXCUSE any more, for any responsible hetero,
to use such a cop-out as you suggest. At least, not since The Free
Spech Movement.
The ony Catch-22 I see here, is those who act as apologists for why so
few heteros care about the death and bashing of gays.
---
Lavender-Velvet Revolution
http://surf.to/gaybible
**********
Ezekiel J. Krahlin
<<
And don't forget there are a lot of queers out there who figuratively spit
on hets who sincerely want to help out.
>>
"A lot"? Where do you get your figures from, Natalie? From personal
involvement, I find this attitude all too rare. But I *have met plenty of
supposedly well-meaning heteros who *think they are fighting well for
gay rights...yet they never rid themselves of their attitude of superiority.
Any group that works for another oppressed group, certainly expects a
certain level of resentment from "outsiders". Yet you seem to only focus
on that issue when it comes to gays. Some blacks spit on "whitey" even
when s/he is volunteering to help their cause. Is that really such a big
deal?
<<
I know so many heterosexual people who volunteer their time and money
to help out on pro-gay efforts.
>>
I don't believe you. I don't believe you know more than a few, if any.
<<
Luckily, the allies I know just ignore the nasty people.
>>
And well they should, knowing they are outsiders, and will always remain
so. It is when "gay-friendly" types such as yourself, make an issue of it,
that I wonder what's really going on. I am quite suspicious when heteros
whine over supposed intolerance by those gays who are "so lucky" to
have them on our side. These are the same kinds of hets who brag:
"Well, it was heteros who gave you birth, don't forget that!" I will be SO
glad when artificial insemination becomes de riguer, and hetero
procreation-bonding a rare (and frowned-upon) circumstance.
Natalie Davis
>On Sat, 05 May 2001 Natalie Davis wrote:
>
><<
>And don't forget there are a lot of queers out there who figuratively spit
>on hets who sincerely want to help out.
> >>
>
>"A lot"? Where do you get your figures from, Natalie? From personal
>involvement, I find this attitude all too rare.
Sorry, dear Ezekiel, I don't count the people as I meet them, and I've got
20 years in activism and in the mainstream, alternative, and queer press's
worth of experiences. We have experienced different things and different
people, I guess, although I've met some of the "superiority" crowd. Give
them a little break; it's hard to get over privilege if it's been handed to
you all your life. Many of them have to unlearn it and many more are
successful at it than you might think.
>Any group that works for another oppressed group, certainly expects a
>certain level of resentment from "outsiders". Yet you seem to only focus
>on that issue when it comes to gays.
This is GAYnet, right? The conversation was framed around the issue of
gays, right? I wasn't aware I was to speak about every group that could
suffer from this sort of problem.
> Some blacks spit on "whitey" even when s/he is volunteering to help
> their cause. Is that really such a big
>deal?
I don't use the terminology you employ (referring to humans as colors, for
example), but I believe it is a big deal anytime a human treats another
disrespectfully, yes.
>I know so many heterosexual people who volunteer their time and money
>to help out on pro-gay efforts.
> >>
>
>I don't believe you. I don't believe you know more than a few, if any.
I don't care what you believe. Why are you so angry and violent in speech
(well, typing)? And why is it so important for you to deny what I've what
experienced and defame me in the process?
>Luckily, the allies I know just ignore the nasty people.
> >>
>
>And well they should, knowing they are outsiders, and will always remain
>so.
Well, there's your problem right there. I thought the idea was to create a
world where we can all be accepted as ourselves and be one big happy
family. I don't want the hets to feel like outsiders, just as I don't want
to feel like an outsider in "their" world. I want us all to be comfortable
everywhere. Pretty tall order, yes, but I suspect being mean to people, as
you are being to folks on this list, won't facilitate it. Unless you like
separatism, and that's certainly your right. (Note: Most separatists I've
met are extremely respectful people.)
> It is when "gay-friendly" types such as yourself, make an issue of it,
>that I wonder what's really going on. I am quite suspicious when heteros
>whine over supposed intolerance by those gays who are "so lucky" to
>have them on our side. These are the same kinds of hets who brag:
>"Well, it was heteros who gave you birth, don't forget that!" I will be SO
>glad when artificial insemination becomes de riguer, and hetero
>procreation-bonding a rare (and frowned-upon) circumstance.
First of all, I am not heterosexual. I am queer and very out and very proud
of who I am and the way God made me. OK? And I gave birth to my kids, so I
must be, in your eyes, a totally vile creature--a dyke breeder. <g>
Secondly, meeting hate with hate means nothing will get accomplished. You
pontificate about what the glbt community should do to heal itself. I
humbly suggest you deal with your hatred problem. And judge people on who
they are, not on who they sleep with.
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