[GN] Re: The Church and Homosexuals
Tim Kerslake
ideal world his ideas would be realistic. Unfortunately, this is not an
ideal world, so what he's trying to do may fail, at least in some regards.
So I think, Chief, if we put some of your efforts and combine them with
some of everybody else's ideas (without trying to prove the other person
wrong at every stage) will get you a lot further than you currently are
going at the moment.
Eric is right: chances are we will *never* be able to "convert" the most
evil of homophobes. But rather than trying to argue with everybody, I
think if we try and work together we will get further.
Tim.
Eric Bohlman said:
> >Intelligent, well-informed debate (by our side only) has been
> >accomplished many times over, here on Usenet as well as in a myriad of
> >other media sources such as magazines and newspapers. In fact *all the
> >answers that are relevant to the matter at hand, can be found
> >scattered throughout various articles on Usenet. All one need do after
> >finding them, is to copy and paste these remarks for your own use in
> >confronting homophobes.
>
> Let's not forget that probably at most 10% of Internet users even know
that
> Usenet exists. It's
> very easy to believe, incorrectly, that other people are as
well-informed as we
> are.
>
> There are really three key groups of people we need to reach. We're not
going
> to change the
> opinions of hard-core homophobes, and we're not going to do anything by
> preaching to the converted.
> The most important groups to reach, in what I think is the right order
of
> importance, are:
>
> 1) Apolitical, apathetic gay people.
>
> 2) Straight people who support gay rights in the abstract, but don't
know or
> don't care what
> concrete measures they could take to help the cause. This is a *much*
larger
> group than most
> people imagine. 85% of the American population, for example, believes
that
> people shouldn't be
> fired, evicted, etc. just because they're gay, but most of them can't be
> bothered to go to the
> polls when there's a referendum on a gay-rights law. Reaching these
people is
> a matter of tedious,
> one-on-one canvassing; it takes patience, not drama.
>
> 3) People who hold anti-gay attitudes purely out of ignorance or
conformity ("I
> don't know anything
>
> about these people, but ____ says they're bad news, and I respect his
> judgment").
>
> Different techniques are needed for reaching these different groups. In
> particular, angry,
> polemical, "in your face" arguments aren't going to be effective for
groups 2)
> and 3); you really
> have to be nice to such people. Venting anger on them will merely turn
them
> off. Save the venting
> for the Robertsons, Helmses and Dobsons of this world; they're beyond
hope in
> any case.
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Chief Thracian
<dogw...@worfie.net> wrote:
>Well said. I think our Chief Thracian has some good ideas, and in an
>ideal world his ideas would be realistic. Unfortunately, this is not an
>ideal world, so what he's trying to do may fail, at least in some regards.
Well, my ideals have carried me quite some way--I am now 51--and my
life has become so enriched, from all my years of devotion. If my
ideals were not appropriate in this non-idealistic world, then I
wouldn't have even gotten 15 per cent as far as I have by now!
IOW: thus far, none of my ideals have failed...indeed, some that
seemed to have failed are just slower-sprouting seeds. I am in the
process of gathering the fruits of my spiritual labors: in friendship,
love, devotion, and victories. And I have only taken my first few
tentative steps in this Gay Nirvana that ripples around me and
beyond...thanks to my faith.
For starters: a lovely young homeless man of 23 has stolen my heart,
and we now share the same home, the same life. He is totally devoted,
honest, and sweet...as well as smart, independent, and humorous. I
know when I have been blessed...for an angel fell from heaven right
into my arms. And that is because I don't spit on the poor, or degrade
the homeless. I reach out to my gay homeless friends, with love and
respect to each and every one of them.
And I doubt one bit that my idealistic viewpoints played but a little
part in this lovely outcome.
>So I think, Chief, if we put some of your efforts and combine them with
>some of everybody else's ideas (without trying to prove the other person
>wrong at every stage) will get you a lot further than you currently are
>going at the moment.
Then get on the stick, and do just that! I have been suggesting all
along that gay folks incorporate some of my ideas into our struggles.
As far as "proving" anyone wrong; that's not my goal. But when I see
an erroneous statement made that, if not corrected, could perpetrate
further damage to our spirit...well, of course I will speak out, and
not back down even an inch! (And if I sound like a "top", know there's
a good reason for that. Just don't blow *your top...at least, not
without first exercising your ample jaw. :) )
>Eric is right: chances are we will *never* be able to "convert" the most
>evil of homophobes. But rather than trying to argue with everybody, I
>think if we try and work together we will get further.
Yes, why not try that for a change, instead of targeting every one of
my points with the most absurd and vacuous rebuttals. Instead of
arguing with me every step of the way, give credit where credit is
due: I *have inspired our community, and many of my best ideas have
been incorporated. But others claim the credit! No matter: I am
honored to see my ideals flourish to liberate my LGBT Family. God and
the Angels know my contributions: why should I obsess over theft of my
ideas? For though squirrels steal acorns for their own joy, mighty
oaks still grow to shade all.
And that, my friend, is true devotion. You grossly underestimate me,
and dance all over my ideals like they were nothing more than rabbit
droppings. What a jaded universe you have created for yourself...I
doubt there is life on *any of your planets.
---
"Give us marriage or give us death:
Slay the beast of homophobia!"
-Zeke Krahlin, Chief Thracian
http://surf.to/gaybible