RDB fans are pathetic losers
rk_u...@yahoo.com
I find such a collection of plagiarised songs and their originals
interesting. That does not necessarily mean every other person should
feel so...many RDB fans have mailed me asking me if I have some other
worthwhile job! And to generally take a hike!
Ajit wrote:-
About the RDB part - good that the world is coming to know how
much of
RDB's work was "xeroxed" from other sources!! And the flames from
his (blind) fan-following is obvious!!
Lemme add:-
Sometime back I tried to become a member of the
pancham egroup. Being open to general public, I read
messages now and then. Full of RDB a** lickers. I wanted
to become a member to take them headon. But the founder
of that group Vinay Jain refused to enroll me. Ho Ho Ho.
RK-
SKalra902
I am not a member of any fan club. Let me, however, put in my two cents to
whatever they may (or may not) be worth.
About six months ago, I was able to lay my hands on a huge number of songs
composed by RDB, including more than three or four dozen which I had never
heard before, or even knew they existed. And I can say, as a music lover, that
I had to take my hats off to his music-composing abilities after hearing those
songs, because they are such a breath of fresh air, full of feelings and/or
youthfulness, as the song necessitated, and to put it mildly, simply music to
my ears.
In the light of what is being discussed and said baout RDB, all I can say is
that the supporters will always be supportive and the nay-sayers always
critical. The supporters might even relax sometimes, but the critics will
never rest, come what may! Long live the War. :-)
Happy listenings.
Satish Kalra
Ket...@att.net
>Lemme add:-
>
>Sometime back I tried to become a member of the
>pancham egroup. Being open to general public, I read
>messages now and then. Full of RDB a** lickers. I wanted
>to become a member to take them headon. But the founder
>of that group Vinay Jain refused to enroll me. Ho Ho Ho.
Ravi,
Considering you have admitted in writing many a times that you are an RDB fan
but love to bash him ONLY because you like to see his fans get upset, there is
no reason why you should be allowed to join any group. You have admitted to
doing the same on rec.sport.cricket--flogging a particular cricketer, just to
irritate his fans and not because you have any bone to pick with the cricketer.
I will leave it to RMIMers to decide who in the end is more pathetic. I have no
doubt as to what the results of this poll are.
Ketan
Karthik S
lic****. Thats not fair too. I've gained immensely from the
discussions out there.
And taking them headon is something thats totally uncalled for. Are we
in for some war here? Its just a matter of opinion buddy so take it
easy.
And for every RDB fan who asked me to take a hike there were people
who were extremely balanced and had learnt how to appreciate RDB's
music despite the inspirations. I see these inspirations as a way to
understand RDB better. Say, take the case of the Procol Harum song.
There was an opening interlude that was adapted by RDB....its
precisely in that place I see RDB almost speaking up through his
music...as if saying 'this is what I'm capable of' and goes on to
create a magically unique song that is so different from the Procol
Harum number!
--Karthik
rk_u...@yahoo.com wrote in message news:<3C6C843E...@yahoo.com>...
Karan Diwan
sure would like to give N-S fans a piece of my mind.
Sorry to post this here
karan diwan
rk_u...@yahoo.com wrote in message news:<3C6C843E...@yahoo.com>...
rk_u...@yahoo.com
> Considering you have admitted in writing many a times that you are an RDB fan
> but love to bash him ONLY because you like to see his fans get upset, there is
> no reason why you should be allowed to join any group.
I am a fan of RDB's good *original* songs. Why should the songs
of Izzazat/Aandhi be held again him just bcos he copied other
songs in *abundance*.
And yes I love to irritate his *blind* supporters.
> You have admitted to
> doing the same on rec.sport.cricket--flogging a particular cricketer, just to
> irritate his fans and not because you have any bone to pick with the cricketer.
This is not entirely true. I love to irritate SRT fans
with some unpalatable stats. I do see lot of similarities
in RDB/SRT fans. Primarily both of them live in denial.
RK-
Arun Verma
<rk_u...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:3C6C843E...@yahoo.com...
Agreed w.r.t Pancham egroup -- they do come across as blind followers. I
respect
some of them for their knowledge and understanding of Pancham's music but
they are not open-minded about this whole RDB plagiarising discussion. Ketan
(mostly)
has tried to bring up these discussions and sometimes I have pitched in only
to see
a nasty behavior from the group's members.
Its understandable to a little extent since the group was created to
appreciate RDB's talents
and these guys are his worshippers -- but I don't know why people prefer
blindness over objectivity.
RK -- we don't need you over in pancham's egroup -- Ketan has been ably
playing "your role" out there.
Its funny you guys fight each other at RMIM but then Ketan borrows a bit of
your personality for pancham group.
You are ofcourse more consistent as your posts in RSC illustrate :-)
Arun
Shalini Razdan
> Ket...@att.net wrote:
>
> > Considering you have admitted in writing many a times that you are an RDB fan
> > but love to bash him ONLY because you like to see his fans get upset, there is
> > no reason why you should be allowed to join any group.
>
>
> I am a fan of RDB's good *original* songs. Why should the songs
> of Izzazat/Aandhi be held again him just bcos he copied other
> songs in *abundance*. And yes I love to irritate his *blind* supporters.
>
from Manoranjan? I may be unique in this, but I admire RDB because of
his 'inspirations' not despite them. They speak of a man immeresed in
music and in a prepetually creative frame of mind.
Shalini
>
> RK-
Ritu
>
> Lemme add:-
>
> Sometime back I tried to become a member of the
> pancham egroup. Being open to general public, I read
> messages now and then. Full of RDB a** lickers. I wanted
> to become a member to take them headon. But the founder
> of that group Vinay Jain refused to enroll me. Ho Ho Ho.
I also came across this egroup. I basically did a search for SDB(I was
in a love SDB phase at that time) and I was pretty amazed to see most
of the threads on SDB were basically discussions on
a) How all his best songs were actually RDB compositions. Right from
the 50's till the 70's
b) How it was RDB that propped up SDB for most part of his career. SDB
though talented did not really have it in him.
c) How SDB spent his productive years either having a heart attack or
watching football matches or was out to have a paan while his
assistants did all the work
d)SDB had no idea about western music/ Chords etc. so it HAD to be RDB
And then there was a big discussion on the music of Aaradhna which to
be fair to them was not really initiated by them but Raju Bhartaran's
account of the same attributing the music to RDB.
Anyway, my first reaction to this as an SDB fan was What B**S**! . But
then it made me think that maybe there might be a grain of truth in
it(Why don't these rumours float about any other MD?). More so because
most of SDB's assistants have by themselves made a more than a mark.
Also Subash Jha's write-up on SDB in the legends series says the same.
He composed the Mukhda and left the antaras to his assistants.
Which then brings us to the larger issue of what exactly was/is a
music directors arena? Do music directors simply compose the basic
tune and then leave the rest to their team?. Who works out the rhythms
the orchestration etc.? We all know that 'dressing up' the tune plays
a very important role in the final outcome of a song. Is a music
director really required to know about everything or is he simply
supposed to give direction to the kind of sound he wants to his team?
I do know that even painters have assistants who detail out aspects of
a painting after the maestro has given it shape(Leanardo Da Vinci
started out as one). So, what is it all about? Creativity, technique
or both? Or is it sub-let creativity?
Any comments?
P.S And yes RDB fans, I for one refuse to believe 'Piya tose naina
lage re' Or 'Radha ne mala japi shyam ki' were tuned by RDB however
much I try to be rational.
- Ritu
Ashok
>
>Anyway, my first reaction to this as an SDB fan was What B**S**! . But
>then it made me think that maybe there might be a grain of truth in
>it(Why don't these rumours float about any other MD?).
>- Ritu
I am confused by the statement parentheses. How many MDs are
RDB's fathers?
"No smoke without fire" is a ghastly reasoning device. It is
important to guard agaist it, because ohterwise, all you have
to do to "establish" something unsavoury against anyone is to
start a malicious rumour.
Ashok
Srinivas Ganti
>Ritu <rc0...@rediffmail.com> wrote :
> a) How all his best songs were actually RDB compositions. Right from
> the 50's till the 70's
> b) How it was RDB that propped up SDB for most part of his career. SDB
> though talented did not really have it in him.
> c) How SDB spent his productive years either having a heart attack or
> watching football matches or was out to have a paan while his
> assistants did all the work
> d)SDB had no idea about western music/ Chords etc. so it HAD to be RDB
Ever since RDB passed away there has been a campaign by Asha and Varsha
Bhonsle to allevie his status. Some SDB compostions became RDB's overnight.
A majority of the Indian internet users are in their 20's and 30's and they
also spend
more time on the net on an average. Since these ppl. grew up ith RDB's
music one
will find more RDB fans than anyone else in discussions. lso there were many
great
composers who were SDB's contemporaries. So the fandom of that generation is
split.
However in RDB's era that's not the case. One more reason why RDB has
greater no of fans than probably any md of the earlier generation.
I speculate that 10 years from now ARR will displace RDB and he will
become the most hotly debated MD on the internet.
> And then there was a big discussion on the music of Aaradhna which to
> be fair to them was not really initiated by them but Raju Bhartaran's
> account of the same attributing the music to RDB.
>
I personally consider RDB to be a great composer. However that dosen't mean
that
he always ghost composed for SDB. Maybe in Aradhana, but applying the same
yardstick, Raju Bharatan also floated stories of SDB ghost composing songs
of Amar Prem especially that kishan kanhaiyya song.
Not just Aradhana but the specific song "Roop Tera Mastana" has been
discussed
to death on RMIM before. Recently one SDB fan told me a completely new story
about this song. I shud have it somewhore. Let me dig that.
> (Why don't these rumours float about any other MD?).
PPl. may be jealous of SDB's success. Also writing something spicy
with gossip will make the articles more saleable.
Why even go that far. We have our own King of DC who at every given
oppurtunity brings some Chitragupta composition and says its better
than an SDB one. I still remeber the thread on the music of
Jeevan Jyoti. In the EMI tape there were a couple of songs from
a Chitragupts movie interspersed with the Jeevan Jyoti numbers.
Go back and read that thread :)
BTW when I recently read that Chitragupta got the big break due to SDB's
recommendation I was delighted :)
>More so because
> most of SDB's assistants have by themselves made a more than a mark.
Again this has been debated. Even if we assume that SDB's assistants
like Jaidev, N. Datta, Surhid Kar had done most of SDB's work their
individual success (as independent MD's) falls flat before SDB's work.
>Radha ne mala japi shyam ki' were tuned by RDB however
> much I try to be rational.
Radha ne japi mala ? This has also been discussed and it was pointed out
that
Meera Dev Burman was SDB's assistant for Tere Mere Sapne.
sg.
Ashok
>
>Ravi,
>
>Considering you have admitted in writing many a times that you are an RDB fan
>but love to bash him ONLY because you like to see his fans get upset, there is
>no reason why you should be allowed to join any group.
What?
>I will leave it to RMIMers to decide who in the end is more pathetic. I have no
>doubt as to what the results of this poll are.
>
>Ketan
I find the sentiment expressed in your first sentence of yours quoted above
most pathetic.
Ashok
Ket...@att.net
>
>In article <a4i67...@drn.newsguy.com>, Ket...@att.net says...
>>
>>Ravi,
>>
>>Considering you have admitted in writing many a times that you are an RDB fan
>>but love to bash him ONLY because you like to see his fans get upset, there is
>>no reason why you should be allowed to join any group.
>
>What?
>
>>I will leave it to RMIMers to decide who in the end is more pathetic. I have no
>>doubt as to what the results of this poll are.
>I find the sentiment expressed in your first sentence of yours quoted above
>most pathetic.
Why? The pancham egroup is a private group that Vinay has started. It is HIS
group. He has as much right to allow who he chooses into it, much like the host
of any party has to draw up his guest list. The host DOES have a right to keep
away unsavoury elements if he so chooses. My above statements were referring to
Vinay's egroup since RK was whining away at not being allowed to join it. On his
group Vinay is perfectly within his rights to not allow those who openly admit
to wanting to cause havoc and strife, just to irritate someone. On a public
forum such as RMIM, RK has the right to say, write, do whatever he wants.
Ketan
rk_u...@yahoo.com
> Why? The pancham egroup is a private group that Vinay has started. It is HIS
> group. He has as much right to allow who he chooses into it, much like the host
> of any party has to draw up his guest list. The host DOES have a right to keep
> away unsavoury elements if he so chooses. My above statements were referring to
> Vinay's egroup since RK was whining away at not being allowed to join it. On his
> group Vinay is perfectly within his rights to not allow those who openly admit
> to wanting to cause havoc and strife, just to irritate someone. On a public
> forum such as RMIM, RK has the right to say, write, do whatever he wants.
delusionary fool, I was not whining. I was amused.
Amused that Vinay Jain kee phat gayee :-)
That's why I mentioned Ho Ho Ho.
RK-
Anil Hingorani
>
> Again this has been debated. Even if we assume that SDB's assistants
> like Jaidev, N. Datta, Surhid Kar had done most of SDB's work their
> individual success (as independent MD's) falls flat before SDB's work.
>
>
Jaidev's work falling flat? Really?
I think Jaidev was a genius and almost everything he composed was
was in a league of its own. Yes, he wasn't as successful as SDB, but that
has nothing to do with the quality of his work.
Overall, I do like SDB's body of work over Jaidev's, but take any individual
composition of Jaidev and you just marvel at the man's talent. This is the
best case of the assistant being more talented than the master in HFM.
Cheers,
Anil
naniwadekar
>
> Why? The pancham egroup is a private group that Vinay has started.
> It is HIS > group. He has as much right to allow who he chooses
> into it, much like the host of any party has to draw up his guest
>
One would expect the selection criteria for choosing guests
to a party and members to a group intended to discuss music
to be a little different. An internet discussion group has to
compete with other groups. It would surely be a better thing
to allow dissenters to voice their opinion.
> Vinay is perfectly within his rights to not allow those who openly admit
> to wanting to cause havoc and strife, just to irritate someone.
>
If RK wanted JUST to irritate others, Vinay would have a valid
reason to refuse him membership of his RDB e-group. But RK wanted
to discuss RDB's music. Vinay had other options. He could have
cancelled RK's membership if he had become a useless irritant.
Or he could have accepted RK's point (about RDB frequently lifting
tunes) OPENLY (as openly as RDB lifted tunes) and pleaded that
the forum would only like to focus on good things about RDB.
I have not visited Vinay's forum, but from this thread I get
the impression that Vinay did not want even properly argued
criticism of RDB by RK on his forum.
- dn
ajit
Quite true - i dont want to get into a comparison of Jaidev with
SDB, but Jaidev was a true genius. His work falling flat is quite
untrue. It was fabulous, including his work with many of the less
accomplished or established singers. (eg: chhaya ganguly) Commercial
success - i dont think he really got it. But that often has nothing to
do with quality at all.
About RDB ghost-composing for Aradhana, I have read this story so many
times that I have started believing it. But I have also heard of SDB
ghost composing a few ones in Amar Prem. I personally feel that RDB is
being hyped more than he really deserves. Not to deny his greatness,
but its sure being overrated. IMO of course.
How true is the rumour that RDB has often even copied SDBs tunes? Are
there examples someone could quote. I would greatly appreciate that.
rk_u...@yahoo.com
> If RK wanted JUST to irritate others, Vinay would have a valid
> reason to refuse him membership of his RDB e-group. But RK wanted
> to discuss RDB's music. Vinay had other options. He could have
> cancelled RK's membership if he had become a useless irritant.
> Or he could have accepted RK's point (about RDB frequently lifting
> tunes) OPENLY (as openly as RDB lifted tunes) and pleaded that
> the forum would only like to focus on good things about RDB.
> I have not visited Vinay's forum, but from this thread I get
> the impression that Vinay did not want even properly argued
> criticism of RDB by RK on his forum.
read this. written by arun verma:-
>Ketan (mostly)
>has tried to bring up these discussions and sometimes I have
>pitched in only to see
>a nasty behavior from the group's members.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
RK-
Srinivas Ganti
Anil Hingorani <ani...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:7730b286.0202...@posting.google.com...
Jaidev is a genius no doubt about that. I have been fortunate enugh to live
close by two big Jaidev fans. Not just under SDB, Jaidev showed his class
under Ustad Ali Akbar Khan also. In one meet commemorative, Vish
says something like this "is gaane ke tarannum me.n Jaidev ki kuchh
puraani harkaten bhii shaamil hai" before the song "hai.n kahii.n par
shaadmani,
hai kahii.n par naashadiyaan.. aati hai duniyaa me.n sukh dukh kii sadaa
aandhiyaan". (I recently got the soundtrack of Aandhiyan / Humsafar.
HMV has chopped of some of the songs. More on that later.)
In the very same compilation there was "aaj achanak TuuT gaye kyuuN man
veena ke taar". Unfortunately this song was deleted from the Video and
hasn't
been released by HMV.As a matter of fact N.Datta is no push over. I love his
music also.
I had to an extreme statement to counter extreme statements against SDB,
and now Anil has made another extreme statement that Jaidev is more talented
than SDB :) Even after Jaidev or for that matter N.Datta or RDB ceased to be
SDB's assistants, he made many memorable compositions. So its not fair to
say
that they ghost composed for him.
sg.
Ket...@att.net
First RK says...
>That's why I mentioned Ho Ho Ho.
Is it Christmas already?
Then RK says...
In article <3C6EBD13...@yahoo.com>, rk_u...@yahoo.com says...
>fucking idiot, u can never give a convincing reason
>as to why RDB fans and *only* RDB fans have to resort to
>sending abusive mails to Karthik for his website.
>Does that tell something about the tolerance level
>of RDB fans.
Seeing that you see the need to resort to profane language, it speaks volumes
for your tolerance levels.
After which Ravi says....
In article <3C703C0B...@yahoo.com>, rk_u...@yahoo.com says...
>By the same token, Stupid logic comes naturally to
>congenital idiots like you.
>But why should u find it objectionable? Afterall it takes
>one to know one.
So what are you--a f***ing idiot or a congenital idiot? Or both?
Ravi once again says...
In article <3C6FACBE...@yahoo.com>, rk_u...@yahoo.com says...
>read this. written by arun verma:-
>
> >Ketan (mostly)
> >has tried to bring up these discussions and sometimes I have
> >pitched in only to see
> >a nasty behavior from the group's members.
>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I don't know the answer to my above question, but I do know that you are a
congenital liar. First you say there is no dissent on the RDB group and that
everyone is a blind fan. Then you conveniently supply this mail from Arun that
shows that me and Arun ARE dissenters.
Then Nani says..
>If RK wanted JUST to irritate others, Vinay would have a valid
>reason to refuse him membership of his RDB e-group. But RK wanted
RK has confessed in writing, that the ONLY reason he wished to join WAS to
irritate others(see below). So ultimately you do agree with Vinay's action.
Ashok says...
In article <a4pfl...@enews2.newsguy.com>, adhar...@worldbank.org says...
>If what you wrote consisted only of name-calling (e.g., mahaa chor
>or worse), the group would have my sumpathies. On the other hand,
>if it was an objective and coolly written analysis of RDB's
>copying tendencies, I'd join you in condemning the group. It'd
The sum total of RK's arguments towards RDB for the last 6-7 years has been that
RDB is a 'Mahachor'. So one can forget anything substantive, objective or
analytical from him(see below).
Finally Ravi says...
In article <3C704E75...@yahoo.com>, rk_u...@yahoo.com says...
>bcos I never recvd any confirmation from Vinay when I wanted
>to make a member. Vinay would appreciate that I made it clear
>that I am joining for only flaming.
--------------------------------------
See the underlined part! There you have it..in clear terms. Does anything more
need to be said?
QED
Ketan
Ashok
wrong, ignorant, careless, lazy, inconsistent, forgetful, undiscriminating,
and idiotic--all in one post! This post by gant...@hotmail.com can be
offered as evidence for all the adjectives I have used.
In article <a4k9hn$v4gp$1...@ID-75004.news.dfncis.de>, gant...@hotmail.com says...
>Why even go that far. We have our own King of DC who at every given
>oppurtunity brings some Chitragupta composition and says its better
>than an SDB one. I still remeber the thread on the music of
>Jeevan Jyoti. In the EMI tape there were a couple of songs from
>a Chitragupts movie interspersed with the Jeevan Jyoti numbers.
>Go back and read that thread :)
Why don't you follow your own counsel and go back and read the thread?
Or better, why don't you go back and read your own past "writings"?!
That would go at least a little distance toward cutting down some
embarrassment.
The 1998 thread is worth visiting, but here's briefly the context.
There is an EMI-Pakistan release of SDB's 'Jeevan Jyoti' (1953).
It's a good sound-track. But the compilers of the cassette had
made an inexplicable error: two songs from an SN Tripathi film
of mid-50s, 'Roop Kumari' have been included in the middle of
'Jeevan Jyoti' songs. One of these songs is marvellous duet
by Manna Dey and Geeta Dutt:
. vo dekho idhar chaa.nd nikalaa gagan par
udhar chaa.ndanee muskuraa rahee hai
a beautiful tune. (Let me record here that I got the information
about the mixup--as well as a copy of the tape!--from Mr. Sudhir
Kakar.)
For SDB freaks crowing about his great melody, it must have felt
like I was raining on their parade. Looks like it rankles them
perennially. For example, here's a 2000 post by gant...@hotmail.com:
<<
From: Srinivas Ganti (gant...@hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: P-stats please: dil kaa dard niraalaa hai
Date: 2000-10-17 08:10:14 PST
In article <8s65c...@news2.newsguy.com>,
ADhar...@WorldBank.Org (Ashok) wrote:
> In article <8s5g6o$baj$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, gant...@hotmail.com says...
> The opening words broght to memory some long-buried
> snatches. I remember hearing a lovely song quite a
> few decades ago.
Since Ashok didn't know the MD he called the song lovely.
If he knew it was SDB I doubt he would have used that word.
No matter how good MD is SDB, it looks like Ashok hates that name:)
I remember his 97 post where there was a discussion on the soundtrack
Jeevan Jyoti.He called SN Tripathi a better MD than SDB.
--
Srinivas
>>
Here, he had gotten the music director right, if not the year.
Now I can anticipate characteristically undiscriminating thoughts
forming in whatever depth/shallowness there is to the "minds"
of Burman fans: "Chitragupta, SN Tripathi, what's the difference?"
There remains the task of substantiating why I included
"idiotic" in the adjectives. On to it:
>......................Even if we assume that SDB's assistants
>like Jaidev, N. Datta, Surhid Kar had done most of SDB's work their
>individual success (as independent MD's) falls flat before SDB's work.
>sg.
Nettors like Anil and Ajit have justly expressed their outrage at this
typcial Burman-fan characterizing as "falls flat" music of the calibre of
'Mujhe Jeene Do', 'Hum Dono', 'Chandrakanta' 'Dharmaputra', et al.
It is certainly a commentary on the warped sensibility and abysmal
taste of such fans, but what strikes me is the rank stupidity of the
sentence above. Look at the two instances of the phrase "SDB's
work". If it's assumed that the assistants did most of "SDB's work",
then what is "SDB's work"? The fan-sentence above, in fact,
says: their individual success in their own name "falls flat"
before their work that they happened to do in SDB's name! "Even
if we assume that" what he says is acceptable, which is is not,
there remains a mystery: he seems to be proud of it!
Ashok
Srinivas Ganti
>Ashok <adhar...@worldbank.org> wrote in message
news:a4psr...@enews1.newsguy.com...
You seem to have stuck form at the right time. I was telling one RMIMer
yesterday that Ashok
is posting regularly on RMIM and she told me that she can now start reading
RMIM again :)
sg.
Ket...@att.net
>What's this with a typical Burman fan? He can manage to be defensive,
>wrong, ignorant, careless, lazy, inconsistent, forgetful, undiscriminating,
>and idiotic--all in one post!
I would say stick to "typical fan". One remembers a recent thread in which you
displayed some of the same characteristics that you write above, including--
warped sensibility, abysmal taste and rank stupidity regarding a movie called
"Abhimaan".
>>......................Even if we assume that SDB's assistants
>>like Jaidev, N. Datta, Surhid Kar had done most of SDB's work their
>>individual success (as independent MD's) falls flat before SDB's work.
>
>>sg.
>
>
>Nettors like Anil and Ajit have justly expressed their outrage at this
>typcial Burman-fan characterizing as "falls flat" music of the calibre of
The way I read it.."individual success" refers to their(N Datta's,
Jaidev's)popular/commercial success against SDB's popular/commercial success. In
that sense, SG is correct that even if we assume that N.Datta/Jaidev did SDB's
work when they were his assistants, they still were not as popular or as much a
commercial success as SDB was, after they were no longer his assistants.
Mind you there are enough MD's who were assistants, who went on to better the
MD's they were assisting in terms of popular/commercial success, so it's not
that it could not be done. Some names that come to mind are SJ over
Husnlal-Bhagatram, L-P whose popularity definitely matched if not exceeded that
of K-A and RDB at some point. Roshan ofcourse seems to have bettered his one
time mentor Anil Biswas not just in terms of popularity but in terms of musical
creativity too. What say Ashok?
Ketan
ajit
> time mentor Anil Biswas not just in terms of popularity but in terms of musical
> creativity too. What say Ashok?
>
>
> Ketan
Ketan -
OK for the popularity part, but thats hardly important. Why do u say
creativity? In what way was he more "creative" than ANIL BISWAS?
Ket...@att.net
ajit...@hotmail.com says...
>
>> Roshan ofcourse seems to have bettered his one
>>time mentor Anil Biswas not just in terms of popularity but in terms of musical
>> creativity too. What say Ashok?
>>
>>
>> Ketan
>
>Ketan -
>OK for the popularity part, but thats hardly important. Why do u say
Popularity is not important? Ok..then can we have Lata as the most popular
singer struck from all your records and statements? One measure of success is
popularity. What have you been smoking?
>creativity? In what way was he more "creative" than ANIL BISWAS?
Please refer to Ashok's post a few weeks ago, in which he calls Roshan has the
most creative composer when it came to using voices/singers, followed by C'gupt
a close second and SDB a distant third.
Ketan
Shalini Razdan
<Ket...@att.net> wrote in message news:a4quu...@drn.newsguy.com...
Not quite. Ashok's ordering[injudicious as it was :-)] placed Chtiragupta
ahead of Roshan. Prepare yourself for the coming rap on the knuckles. :-)
Shalini
> Ketan
>
Ritu
> In article <8777cccd.02021...@posting.google.com>, rc0...@rediffmail.com says...
> >
> >Anyway, my first reaction to this as an SDB fan was What B**S**! . But
> >then it made me think that maybe there might be a grain of truth in
> >it(Why don't these rumours float about any other MD?).
>
>
> >- Ritu
>
> I am confused by the statement parentheses. How many MDs are
> RDB's fathers?
I see the ambuguity in my statement. I had obviously meant that why is
it that such rumours of someone else ghost composing for them not
float about any other MD.
Ashok, I need to take some lessons in English from you really soon :-)
Ritu
Ritu
>
> Ever since RDB passed away there has been a campaign by Asha and Varsha
> Bhonsle to allevie his status. Some SDB compostions became RDB's overnight.
Ok, Logically speaking what would Asha's gain in that be? Asha
definitely wanted to cash in on his popularity after he died but I
think she extracted her pound of flesh with the remixes and the 'Rahul
and I' kind of albums(with videos that had RDB's spirit waving at
her!). Giving RDB credit for SDB compositions that most people who
catered to the 'Rahul and I' kind of music wouldn't even care about
would not really get her far. Or was it a surge of wifely (and
step-daughterly) love?!
> > (Why don't these rumours float about any other MD?).
>
> PPl. may be jealous of SDB's success. Also writing something spicy
> with gossip will make the articles more saleable.
Who in today's day and age would be jealous of a quaint old man who
has been dead and gone for 25 years. Asha Bhosle? Or Lata Mangeshkar
extracting her pound of flesh for the years she was 'katti' with him
:-)
On a side note, in the Legends series Lata Mangeshkar very amusingly
says 'Burman Dada hamesha dare rehte the ki Lata nahin aayi toh mere
gaane ka kya hoga'. Interesting statement to make for a man who made
great music without her for 4 years!
> >Radha ne mala japi shyam ki' were tuned by RDB however
> > much I try to be rational.
>
> Radha ne japi mala ? This has also been discussed and it was pointed out
> that
> Meera Dev Burman was SDB's assistant for Tere Mere Sapne.
Exactly my point. How did it get attributed to RDB? Asha Bhosle again
? Or was it Raju Bhartaran doing the honors?
> >More so because
> > most of SDB's assistants have by themselves made a more than a mark.
>
> Again this has been debated. Even if we assume that SDB's assistants
> like Jaidev, N. Datta, Surhid Kar had done most of SDB's work their
> individual success (as independent MD's) falls flat before SDB's work.
I too, like the rest, would disagree with this statement. I don't know
anything about Surhid Kar. But N.Datta, Jaidev and RDB are all very
talented in their own right and have created some very good music. I
too wouldn't say their music fell flat. And yes, I'm discussing the
quality and not the commercial success of their music.
However, my points in support of your argument are as follows
a) SDB's assistants in their independent ventures never sounded like
him(or themselves when they composed for him????).
Jaidev's music has a completely distinct sound. Very different from
SDB's music. The only exception being Hum Dono where I think 'Main
Zindagi ka saath' and 'Abhi na jao chod kar' esp. the first one has a
Burman touch to it. The rest of them are very different. Later 'Peetal
ki mori gagri' was pretty much in the Burman mould in terms of the
rhythms and orchestration(or lack of it). But it's more or less ends
there.
RDB's softer numbers too had a character that was very different from
what he allegedly composed for his father. And his racy numbers
sounded like no one else.
So, I find it very difficult to believe that his assistants did all of
SDB's work while he chewed the cud(paan). The sound of SDB's music is
his own. His assistants might have executed his vision and provided
the building blocks but finally it was his touch that gave it the
final shape. The same touch that you see in his Bengali compositions.
That childlike uniqueness that was so much him. It comes across in his
music and his singing. His sense of rhythm was also completely his
own. I've not seen a reflection of that brand in any of his
assistants' work. And that's the point I was getting to in the
beginning. The assistants are mere technicians.. however talented they
maybe they provide only the building blocks. The final shape is the
master's.
And Ashok, there is nothing like a 'typical Burman fan'. His fans
range from the idiotic to the clever, from the careless to the careful
from the lazy to the proactive and from undiscriminating to the
discriminating. His music can be enjoyed by the uninitiated as much as
by the connoisseur. Anyone whose personality gels with the spirit that
was Burman enjoys his music. He might not have crafted exquisite
melodies like AB or great ghazals like MM or used light classical as
effectively as Roshan,CR but he could reach out to the masses without
losing the freshness. So, Ashok there might be typical CR, VD, AB, RD
fans.. there's nothing typical about an SDB fan. (Infact a typical SDB
fan is generally a fan of one or more of the above mentioned MD's as
well)
So, in a way Ganti is right. The music of his assistants did 'fall
flat'. They could not recreate the uniqueness that was Sachin Dev
Burman :-)
- Ritu
ajit
> ajit...@hotmail.com says...
> >
> >> Roshan ofcourse seems to have bettered his one
> >>time mentor Anil Biswas not just in terms of popularity but in terms of musical
> >> creativity too. What say Ashok?
> >>
> >>
> >> Ketan
> >
> >Ketan -
> >OK for the popularity part, but thats hardly important. Why do u say
>
> Popularity is not important? Ok..then can we have Lata as the most popular
> singer struck from all your records and statements? One measure of success is
> popularity. What have you been smoking?
>
Ketan - I knew u would bring in Lata everywhere. Lets leave that
point. Yes, I HAD spoken of Lata's popularity - but I like her for the
quality of her singing in the yesteryears. That she was popular, makes
me happy -- but even if she wasnt, it would make no difference to me.
My point was - judjing an MD by merely his popularity is incorrect.
And thats what RDB fans like to feed on all the time - that
"popularity" issue, I would like to term it as hype.
Thanks,
Ajit
ajit
>
ketan:
Yes and success does NOT mean quality. Thats maybe quite applicable to
RDB and much of his "popular" junk.
Ket...@att.net
>>Ketan - yes u are 100% correct. And the same goes for your beloved
>Asha too, considering the state of her voice for the past few years.
I have in the past too had reason to slap you on your wrist for alleging and
insinuating things that you have no idea about. Kindly cease and desist right
now. The last time you apologized for passing me off as an Asha fan, and yet
here you are doing it again, without any proof whatsoever. Don't you ever read
your own writing?
>standing whatsoever" - is an example again that popularity may not be
>reflective of quality. The same goes for so many crappy crappy tunes
>of RDB.
And who said popularity = quality? You probably, w.r.t Lata. Not me w.r.t RDB.
>My point was MDs like Jaidev have given us really quality music. And
>for a long time. Yet he is not one of India's most popular MDs. I am
Ever wondered why?
>using the "popularity-quality" argument, coz some RDB fans love to
>harp on popularity part all the time.
Just as much as some AB, Jaidev, fans like to harp on quality all the time,
maybe? So..could you tell me again, why Jaidev's music has not become popular
despite being of such good quality, whereas RDB's crappy music has still become
popular?
>A person who needs TOO MUCH PAPER is not necessarily systematic in
>documentation.
Agreed, but he seems to have documented it in enough of a systematic manner for
his work to be published long after his death. So your argument fails.
>It states that Ramanujan did not have a clear idea of writing a proof
>systematically.
Not being able to write a proof systematically, is no indication of being unable
to document things systematically.
>Yes, and please do tell me what RDB DISCOVERED as such in music, in
>brief atleast. I mean, that can be attributed to Ilayaraja - his style
>of conceiving a tune A-Z in the from of notations which he writes down
>on paper, etc. Or the way he used just the aaroham of a raaga for the
And you think ILR was the first to do this? What makes you think ILR
"discovered" this? You should talk to RDB's assistant Manohari. He told a bus
full of people about how RDB would write down exact musical notations for each
instrumentalist in the orchestra, bars, distaff etc, and give a clear
understanding to each musician of what s/he was supposed to play explaining
chords et al.
>Yesudas song "KalaivaNiye" in Sindhubhairvai. Or the way he
>experimented with several rarely used raagas and taalas, and created
Can you explain to me the taal used in "Ja re ja main tose na bolun" from Mr.
Romeo? Not many can incidentally. I could post an explanation that another RDB
fan posted in the RDB yahoo group, but I am quite loath to do so, since if you
really want to educate yourself, I suggest you join the group.
>film songs out of them which could be hummed by the lay public. And
>the fusion between Carnatic krithis and western classical pieces. And
>so on.
Would that be something like the fusion between a folkish tune and Prokofiev's
Kihe symphony?
So got any other "discoveries"?
In article <c5161e15.02021...@posting.google.com>,
ajit...@hotmail.com says...
>Ketan - I knew u would bring in Lata everywhere. Lets leave that
>point. Yes, I HAD spoken of Lata's popularity - but I like her for the
>quality of her singing in the yesteryears. That she was popular, makes
>me happy -- but even if she wasnt, it would make no difference to me.
Really? No difference huh? Could you then explain why you have been inflicting
yourself on us defending her day and night, be it for receiving the Bharat
Ratna, or allegations of monopoly etc. Infact you went further and tried to
paint Asha too as being equally monopolistic. So please sort out whether you
really care about Lata's popularity or not.
>My point was - judjing an MD by merely his popularity is incorrect.
>And thats what RDB fans like to feed on all the time - that
>"popularity" issue, I would like to term it as hype.
You come across as one of the most ill-informed people I have known with stupid
comments like this. Considering what is being done to RDB's tunes in the name of
remix, RDB fans are the first and loudest ones I know, who wish he wasn't this
popular.
Ketan
ajit
> In article <c5161e15.02021...@posting.google.com>,
> ajit...@hotmail.com says...
>
> >>Ketan - yes u are 100% correct. And the same goes for your beloved
> >Asha too, considering the state of her voice for the past few years.
>
> I have in the past too had reason to slap you on your wrist for alleging and
> insinuating things that you have no idea about. Kindly cease and desist right
> now. The last time you apologized for passing me off as an Asha fan, and yet
> here you are doing it again, without any proof whatsoever. Don't you ever read
> your own writing?
>
Yeah yeah - go and look at your own posts and then tell me all this,
will you?
That last sentence IS meant for you.
> >standing whatsoever" - is an example again that popularity may not be
> >reflective of quality. The same goes for so many crappy crappy tunes
> >of RDB.
>
> And who said popularity = quality? You probably, w.r.t Lata. Not me w.r.t >RDB.
Here u prove that u dont have the basic skills of english
comprehension at all. I never said Lata's quality has anything to do
with her popularity. I just said that she is India's most popular
singer - thats all. Her quality is something totally different and
that she is popular is a happy coincidence for me, coz I firmly
believe that popularity does not NECESSARILY reflect upon quality.
Unlike what MANY RDB fans harp about.
>
> >My point was MDs like Jaidev have given us really quality music. And
> >for a long time. Yet he is not one of India's most popular MDs. I am
>
> Ever wondered why?
>
> >using the "popularity-quality" argument, coz some RDB fans love to
> >harp on popularity part all the time.
>
> Just as much as some AB, Jaidev, fans like to harp on quality all the time,
> maybe? So..could you tell me again, why Jaidev's music has not become popular
> despite being of such good quality, whereas RDB's crappy music has still become
> popular?
>
Because the tastes of the HFM audience ever since the mid 80s or so,
sucks royally. There again you go!!
> In article <c5161e15.02021...@posting.google.com>,
> ajit...@hotmail.com says...
>
> >Ketan - I knew u would bring in Lata everywhere. Lets leave that
> >point. Yes, I HAD spoken of Lata's popularity - but I like her for the
> >quality of her singing in the yesteryears. That she was popular, makes
> >me happy -- but even if she wasnt, it would make no difference to me.
>
> Really? No difference huh? Could you then explain why you have been inflicting
> yourself on us defending her day and night, be it for receiving the Bharat
> Ratna, or allegations of monopoly etc. Infact you went further and tried to
> paint Asha too as being equally monopolistic. So please sort out whether you
> really care about Lata's popularity or not.
>
Here ONCE again you prove that your comprehension skills are as
abysmal as your temper. Why the hell should she NOT get that honour,
huh??? Becoz YOU (of all people) say so? I am happy she got that
honour, but whether she got that honour or not, her contribution to
Indian film music is tremendous. If you remember you even passed a
remark asking what CONTRIBUTION to music she really has made. It was
that idiotic claim of yours that I tried to refute.
As far as allegations of monopoly, I have the right to my opinions and
I HAVE quoted references to remarks by Suman,Geeta in favour of Lata.
And as it was inconvenient to you, you brushed them aside impetously
and started calling me names instead, like a smitten schoolkid.
There is also no need to PAINT asha as monopolistic or not. All the
singers who blamed Lata, blamed Asha too.
> >My point was - judjing an MD by merely his popularity is incorrect.
> >And thats what RDB fans like to feed on all the time - that
> >"popularity" issue, I would like to term it as hype.
>
> You come across as one of the most ill-informed people I have known with stupid
> comments like this.
>
> Ketan
Say that to yourself. My common sense and intelligence are MUCH more
suspect than yours (coz in your case they arent suspect at all - their
abscence is so glaringly obvious!!) However in one department you beat
all the RMIMers put together - and that is the strength of your
OLFACTORY NERVES. God seems to have given you the olfactory nerves of
a bloodhound :-)) Indeed your sense of smell is terrific!! And you
might know what post of yours I am referring to. Since you have dug my
claims from totally unrelated posts, made MONTHS ago, I can too do the
same. YOU have interpreted many of my posts maliciously and started
your relentless tirade against me (like you are now doing against Ravi
Krishna.)Its clear you cant tolerate the slightest bit of opposition
to all your idiotic,pitiable claims and "views".
Expecting another abusive,pitiable reply from you!!
And yes, please come with your "list" showing that IR is as much a
"chor" as RDB. Please,please,please do so!
ajit
> And you think ILR was the first to do this? What makes you think ILR
> "discovered" this? You should talk to RDB's assistant Manohari. He told a bus
> full of people about how RDB would write down exact musical notations for each
> instrumentalist in the orchestra, bars, distaff etc, and give a clear
> understanding to each musician of what s/he was supposed to play explaining
> chords et al.
>
I was referring to conceiving, ie imagining and creating a complete
tune without humming it or playing it even once, from A-Z inclusive of
interludes. If u have an article, saying that RDB too had the ability
to do this, please post it.
Anindya
> Ket...@att.net wrote in message news:<a4quu...@drn.newsguy.com>...
> > In article <c5161e15.02021...@posting.google.com>,
> > ajit...@hotmail.com says...
> > >
> > >> Roshan ofcourse seems to have bettered his one
> > >>time mentor Anil Biswas not just in terms of popularity but in terms of musical
> > >> creativity too. What say Ashok?
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Ketan
> > >
> > >Ketan -
> > >OK for the popularity part, but thats hardly important. Why do u say
> >
> > Popularity is not important? Ok..then can we have Lata as the most popular
> > singer struck from all your records and statements? One measure of success is
> > popularity. What have you been smoking?
> >
>
> Ketan - I knew u would bring in Lata everywhere. Lets leave that
> point. Yes, I HAD spoken of Lata's popularity - but I like her for the
> quality of her singing in the yesteryears. That she was popular, makes
> me happy -- but even if she wasnt, it would make no difference to me.
>
> My point was - judjing an MD by merely his popularity is incorrect.
"judging an MD merely by his popularity is DEFINITELY incorrect...but
to constantly try to establish that "popularity and talent are
INVERSELY proportional" is incorrect too. My (and the ubiquitous "RDB
fan"'s) objection is to the latter statement.
And thats what RDB fans like to feed on all the time - that
> "popularity" issue, I would like to term it as hype.
to each his own.
Anindya
rk_u...@yahoo.com
whether or not RDB had the ability I don't know, but it never
reflected in his songs as well as ILR.
I wouldn't say that comparing RDB with ILR is a joke.
it will suffice to say that RDB suffers in comparison to ILR.
But then in any comparison someone comes out inferior.
RK-
Vijay Kumar K
> was in a league of its own. Yes, he wasn't as successful as SDB, but that
> has nothing to do with the quality of his work.
> Overall, I do like SDB's body of work over Jaidev's, but take any individual
> composition of Jaidev and you just marvel at the man's talent. This is the
> best case of the assistant being more talented than the master in HFM.
>
What I find significant is that post 1960 or so, Naushad's music went downhill
much more rapidly than SDB's without Jaidev/RDB at his side (SDB, IMHO,
evolved most successfully to keep afloat all the way to Abhiman & beyond).
I am quite convinced that without Ghulam Mohd.'s genius to back him, Naushad
would have been just a pedantic bore, instead of the creator of songs like
"tuu ga.ngaa kii mauj me.n" or "ham aaj kahii.n dil kho baiThe" (BTW, HFGK says
Naushad's asst. for Baiju Bawra was Ibrahim. Not sure about Andaz)
I think Naushad was good, even very good. But his classical perfectionism lacks
the spark of divine fire that Ghulam Mohd. seems to imbue his creations (aap se
pyaar huaa jaataa hai, aah ko chaahiye, mausam hai aashiqaanaa, ye raat
suhaanii raat nahii.n) with.
Vijay
Karthik S
seems be growing into a huge argument.
RDB fan mails were the most abusive ones no doubt :-)
But I got coupla mails from ARR fans asking me to remove his
inspirations on
loops, sound samples etc. I thot they were right but the site is not
for
blatant rip offs alone, its more of a documentation for all kinds of
inspirations....and the guys who asked me to, felt it was ok in the
end.
IR fans, yes, there were lot of mails initially expressing suprise and
(disgust, as one puts it) but they felt they can learn IR better in
such
cases and dont take it in the negative sense!
But yes, Jatin lalit and Nadeem Shravan fans were pretty annoyed too.
One NS
fan said that we would never ever get to listen to those wonderful
Pakistani
and middle eastern melodies if NS hadnt used them in India!!!!!! Most
other
fan mails to me were dumb and instinctive.
The most happy fans were of IR's son Yuvan Shankar Raja's! He's now a
full fledged composer with quite a few good compositions to his credit
- but not a single lift exposed or found so far! Many YSR fans are
pleased to punch about this fact!
Most RDB fans who wrote were plain annoyed with one fact that the list
under RDB is way too big whereas Anand Milind looks like God with a
small list despite their numerous lifts from South. Thats indeed
unfortunate since I dont have the time or inclination to get audio
clips of all those countless south-based lifts...the list will simply
be too big!
A simple comparison of the number of entries under each composer is
way too lopsided and just doesnt make sense. Thats not the intention
of the site, too!
--Karthik
rk_u...@yahoo.com wrote in message news:<3C6C843E...@yahoo.com>...
> Karthik wrote:-
> I find such a collection of plagiarised songs and their originals
> interesting. That does not necessarily mean every other person should
> feel so...many RDB fans have mailed me asking me if I have some other
> worthwhile job! And to generally take a hike!