*American Family Association & Homosexuality
Pioneer
In the Spotlight:
Bill of Rights for Unbelievers!
Skeptics causing trouble in Philadelphia
Alternative Medicine?
Christians Anonymous
In the News:
Let your voice be heard in the AFA! Get their survey and mess with
their results...
Newest feature: The American Family Association and Homosexuality
[Note: below are excerpt. Go to http://atheism.miningco.com for the full text]
Don Wildmon's American Family Association has been increasingly on the
forefront of the Radical Religious Right and the efforts to impose a very
conservative, evangelical Christian morality on America. His organization
began in the late 1970s with attempts to remove Playboy magazine from
convenience stores and is currently very active in attempts to remove
Howard Stern's radio and television programs from airing in various
markets. A high-priority target of Wildmon and the AFA are homosexuals and
their efforts to obtain a certain degree of respect, tolerance, and rights
in our society.
[...]
Principles which guide the AFA's opposition to the Gay Agenda:
"1. The scripture declares that homosexuality is unnatural and sinful. It
is a sin grievous to God and repulsive to Chrisitians because it rejects
God's design for mankind as heterosexual beings."
First, we should take note of the fact that these principles are to stand
against a "Gay Agenda." There is no effort to explain what this "agenda"
is supposed to be - presumably, readers will read into that whatever their
worst fears about nasty homosexals happen to be. The spectre of
"recruitment of children into the homosexual lifestyle" will probably loom
large to many. Opponents, however, will simply see their attempts to be
accepted as normal, healthy human beings. How many misunderstandings will
this ambiguity engender?
[...]
The second thing to note is that homosexuality is immediately defined as
"unnatural and sinful" - thus eliminating any possibility that
homosexuality might have a biological/genetic component. Of course not all
of the scientific data is in for us to know for sure what might constitute
the origin of homosexuality or sexual orientation in general, but it is
important to keep in mind that as far as the AFA is concerned, the matter
has been decided. I suspect that even hard scientific data would not sway
them from their prejudiced and dogmatic position. How do you really argue
with someone who has already made up their mind before you've even opened
up your mouth?
We should also take careful note of the fact that "homosexuality" is not
clearly defined by them. This might seem to be irrelevant - after all,
doesn't everyone already know what it is? But in fact, there are two sides
to homosexuality: the basic orientation of being physically, emotionally,
and psychologically attracted to members of the same sex, and then the act
of engaging in sexual relations with members of the same sex. Both are
quite separate - a person can do one without the other.
Many mainstream Christian denominations acknowledge this fact, accepting
that people might have a homosexual orientation while only condemning
homosexual acts. Thus, it is OK for a person to "be" homosexual so long as
they do not act upon their inclination. It is an open matter as to what
the AFA is actually condemning, but presumably they condem it all,
including the basic orientation. This is probably not the most biblically
sound position to take, especially if you read the text as literally as
they do. This because the Bible specifically condemns the *act of
homosexuality, "men lying with men as with women," and not merely the
desire.
[...]
"4. We oppose the gay movement's efforts to convince our society that
their behavior is normal because we fear the judgment of God on our
nation. "
In this instance, we can see some of the fear and desperation hiding
behind their opposition to homosexuality - they aren't just trying to save
some sinners, but they fear that their "loving" god will punish the entire
nation. This is not at all unlike the claims of Pat Robertson earlier this
year that Florida, specifically the Orlando area, would suffer disasters
and destruction due to their tolerance and even acceptance of homosexuals.
Thus, we see now that Robertson was not stepping entirely out of line from
the extremist circles in which he moves.
It is also important to notice the positively primitive idea of morality
which this fourth point presumes. Evidently, this god of theirs is not
simply interested in punishing the actual perpetrators of sin by casting
them into Hell after they die. Instead, this "loving" god will punish the
entire nation corporately as one, as if all were to be made responsible
for the actions of any one. This was a common idea in primitive tribes
when members were thought to belong more to the body of the tribe and
wasn't quite as differentiated as a uniuqe individual. Since the
Enlightenment, we have learned to only hold people responsible for the
things which they do, not for the things done by others. In our society,
we promote the concept of *personal responsibility and no longer punish
whole families or towns for the actions of one person - but clearly, the
AFA does not think that their god has progressed nearly so much. Pity.
[...]
For the rest of this article and all the other information mentioned
above, go to: http://atheism.miningco.com
Thanks!
--
Austin Cline: Regional Director, Council for Secular Humanism
Agnosticism/Atheism on the Web.: http://atheism.miningco.com
Home: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Academy/2850/
Secular Humanism in OH & PA: http://www.geocities.com/~shiwpa/
Council for Secular Humanism: http://www.secularhumanism.org/
--- "A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence." David Hume
--- "Thinking men cannot be ruled." Ayn Rand
Brian Carey
> Don Wildmon's American Family Association has been increasingly on the
> forefront of the Radical Religious Right and the efforts to impose a very
> conservative, evangelical Christian morality on America.
Just like Thomas Jefferson:
"Whosoever is guilty of rape, polygamy, or sodomy, shall be punished;
if a man, by castration; if a woman, by boring through the cartilege
of her nose a hole of one half inch in diameter at the least."
---Thomas Jefferson, in his recommendations
of laws for Virginia
See pp. 355, 356 of "Writings of Thomas Jefferson" (c. 1984, Literary
Classics of the United States ISBN# 0 521 26344 1) or Dumas Malone's
first volume of his bio of Thomas Jefferson, "Jefferson the Virginian",
p. 272.
Incidentally, the morality to which Mr. Cline refers is hardly unique to
"evangelical Christianity." A variety of cultures and religions, both
historical and present, subscribe to the traditional family values
espoused by the AFA.
--
Brian Carey --> car...@mindspring.com
Religious Freedom Home Page:
http://www.mindspring.com/~careyb/rframe.html
"This most beautiful system of the sun, planets, and comets
could only proceed from the counsel and dominion of an
intelligent and powerful Being."
-- Isaac Newton, _General Scholium_
"Ignorance is the foundation of atheism, and freethinking the
cure for it."
-- Anthony Collins, _Discourse of Freethinking_
"It is true, that a little philosophy inclineth man's mind to
atheism; but depth in philosophy bringeth men's minds
about to religion. For while the mind of man looketh upon
second causes scattered, it may sometimes rest in them,
and go no further; but when it beholdeth the chain of
them, confederate and linked together, it must needs fly to
Providence and Deity."
-- Francis Bacon, _Of Atheism_
ò GOD ó
Brian Carey, says...
>
>Pioneer wrote:
>
>> Don Wildmon's American Family Association has been increasingly on the
>> forefront of the Radical Religious Right and the efforts to impose a very
>> conservative, evangelical Christian morality on America.
>
>
>"Whosoever is guilty of rape, polygamy, or sodomy, shall be punished;
>if a man, by castration; if a woman, by boring through the cartilege
>of her nose a hole of one half inch in diameter at the least."
> ---Thomas Jefferson, in his recommendations
> of laws for Virginia
>
>See pp. 355, 356 of "Writings of Thomas Jefferson" (c. 1984, Literary
>Classics of the United States ISBN# 0 521 26344 1) or Dumas Malone's
>first volume of his bio of Thomas Jefferson, "Jefferson the Virginian",
>p. 272.
>
>Incidentally, the morality to which Mr. Cline refers is hardly unique to
>"evangelical Christianity." A variety of cultures and religions, both
>historical and present, subscribe to the traditional family values
>espoused by the AFA.
>
>--
>Brian Carey --> car...@mindspring.com
>
>Religious Freedom Home Page:
>http://www.mindspring.com/~careyb/rframe.html
The reactionary, religious political extremist, Brian Carey, probably wants
to bring back slavery as well. After all, Jefferson kept slaves.
Want religious fundamentalist to run your government? Move to Afganistan!
Brian Carey
> >Just like Thomas Jefferson:
> >
> >"Whosoever is guilty of rape, polygamy, or sodomy, shall be punished;
> >if a man, by castration; if a woman, by boring through the cartilege
> >of her nose a hole of one half inch in diameter at the least."
> > ---Thomas Jefferson, in his recommendations
> > of laws for Virginia
> >
> >See pp. 355, 356 of "Writings of Thomas Jefferson" (c. 1984, Literary
> >Classics of the United States ISBN# 0 521 26344 1) or Dumas Malone's
> >first volume of his bio of Thomas Jefferson, "Jefferson the Virginian",
> >p. 272.
> >
> >Incidentally, the morality to which Mr. Cline refers is hardly unique to
> >"evangelical Christianity." A variety of cultures and religions, both
> >historical and present, subscribe to the traditional family values
> >espoused by the AFA.
> >
>
> The reactionary, religious political extremist, Brian Carey,
LOL!
> probably wants
> to bring back slavery as well. After all, Jefferson kept slaves.
Jefferson's psychology on slavery is fascinating. He kept slaves, 'tis
true, yet he favored emancipation (this also according to Malone).
Nevertheless, he was a prophet in that he foresaw the racial struggles
that would ensue if the slaves were ever freed.
> Want religious fundamentalist to run your government? Move to Afganistan!
The point, which went so far above your head that it registered on
SETI's scopes, is that the morality which Mr. Wildmon, et. al. support
is hardly unique to Christian fundamentalism.
--
Brian Carey --> car...@mindspring.com
Religious Freedom Home Page:
http://www.mindspring.com/~careyb/rframe.html
"This most beautiful system of the sun, planets, and comets
Lu Lu Pironi
<35F80D...@lender.be>...
Blah, blah blah
>
>Just like Thomas Jefferson:
>
>"Whosoever is guilty of rape, polygamy, or sodomy, shall be punished;
>if a man, by castration; if a woman, by boring through the cartilege
>of her nose a hole of one half inch in diameter at the least."
> ---Thomas Jefferson, in his recommendations
> of laws for Virginia
>
>See pp. 355, 356 of "Writings of Thomas Jefferson" (c. 1984, Literary
>Classics of the United States ISBN# 0 521 26344 1) or Dumas Malone's
>first volume of his bio of Thomas Jefferson, "Jefferson the Virginian",
>p. 272.
>
>Incidentally, the morality to which Mr. Cline refers is hardly unique to
>"evangelical Christianity." A variety of cultures and religions, both
>historical and present, subscribe to the traditional family values
>espoused by the AFA.
>
Earle Jones
<neither.a.b...@lender.be> wrote:
>Pioneer wrote:
>
>> Don Wildmon's American Family Association has been increasingly on the
>> forefront of the Radical Religious Right and the efforts to impose a very
>> conservative, evangelical Christian morality on America.
>
>Just like Thomas Jefferson:
>
>"Whosoever is guilty of rape, polygamy, or sodomy, shall be punished;
>if a man, by castration; if a woman, by boring through the cartilege
>of her nose a hole of one half inch in diameter at the least."
> ---Thomas Jefferson, in his recommendations
> of laws for Virginia
--
Are you a Jefferson fan?
You might like these:
"I do not find in orthodox Christianity one redeeming feature."
"I consider the Government of the United States as interdicted by the
Constitution of the United States from meddling with religious
institutions, their doctrines, discipline, or exercises."
"Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of
Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have
not advanced one inch towards uniformity."
"But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods
or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg."
"Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because if there be
one he must approve of the homage of reason more than that of blindfolded
fear."
--Thomas Jefferson
"History, I believe furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people
maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of
ignorance, of which their political as well as religious leaders will
always avail themselves for their own purpose."
--Thomas Jefferson (to Baron von Humboldt, 1813)
And Jefferson was not exactly alone:
"During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of
Christianity been on trial. What has been its fruits? More or less, in all
places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the
laity; in both, superstition, bigotry, and persecution."
--James Madison
"The divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity."
--John Adams
"All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or
Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and
enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit."
--Thomas Paine
"..but the Bible is such a book of lies and contradictions there is no
knowing which part to believe or whether any..."
--Thomas Paine, "The Age of Reason"
"Of all the tyrannies that affect mankind,
tyranny in religion is the Worst"
--Thomas Paine
Need more?
earle
--
__
__/\_\
/\_\/_/
\/_/\_\ earle
\/_/ jones
"At present there is not a single credible established religion in the
world."
--George Bernard Shaw
"Pray": To ask that the laws of the universe be annulled in behalf of
a single petitioner confessedly unworthy."
--Ambrose Bierce
Jeff Wilson
<neither.a.b...@lender.be> wrote:
>"It is true, that a little philosophy inclineth man's mind to
>atheism; but depth in philosophy bringeth men's minds
>about to religion. For while the mind of man looketh upon
>second causes scattered, it may sometimes rest in them,
>and go no further; but when it beholdeth the chain of
>them, confederate and linked together, it must needs fly to
>Providence and Deity."
> -- Francis Bacon, _Of Atheism_
Much as I disagree with Bacon's conclusion, I have
to admit that's the noblest exposition of the "Argument
from Design" I've ever seen. It's marvellous what a
person of real genius can do.
Please remove the capital X's from my e-mail address.
They are meant to thwart unsolicited commercial mail.
Allen
<neither.a.b...@lender.be> wrote:
>"GOD" blasphemes himself:
>
>> >Just like Thomas Jefferson:
>> >
>> >"Whosoever is guilty of rape, polygamy, or sodomy, shall be punished;
>> >if a man, by castration; if a woman, by boring through the cartilege
>> >of her nose a hole of one half inch in diameter at the least."
>> > ---Thomas Jefferson, in his recommendations
>> > of laws for Virginia
>> >
>> >See pp. 355, 356 of "Writings of Thomas Jefferson" (c. 1984, Literary
>> >Classics of the United States ISBN# 0 521 26344 1) or Dumas Malone's
>> >first volume of his bio of Thomas Jefferson, "Jefferson the Virginian",
>> >p. 272.
>> >
>> >Incidentally, the morality to which Mr. Cline refers is hardly unique to
>> >"evangelical Christianity." A variety of cultures and religions, both
>> >historical and present, subscribe to the traditional family values
>> >espoused by the AFA.
>> >
>>
>> The reactionary, religious political extremist, Brian Carey,
>
>LOL!
>
>> probably wants
>> to bring back slavery as well. After all, Jefferson kept slaves.
>
>Jefferson's psychology on slavery is fascinating. He kept slaves, 'tis
>true, yet he favored emancipation (this also according to Malone).
>Nevertheless, he was a prophet in that he foresaw the racial struggles
>that would ensue if the slaves were ever freed.
>
>> Want religious fundamentalist to run your government? Move to Afganistan!
>
>The point, which went so far above your head that it registered on
>SETI's scopes, is that the morality which Mr. Wildmon, et. al. support
>is hardly unique to Christian fundamentalism.
So you and Mr. Wildmon share the same kind of morality as Islamic
fundamentalism? Why how sweet! It just makes you feel all gooey
inside.
Allen
---------------------------
afb...@HATESPAMhotmail.com
Address fudged to foil spam-bots. Take out the HATESPAM for correct address.
Ward Stewart
wrote:
>On Thu, 10 Sep 1998 13:33:01 -0400, Brian Carey
><neither.a.b...@lender.be> wrote:
>
>>"It is true, that a little philosophy inclineth man's mind to
>>atheism; but depth in philosophy bringeth men's minds
>>about to religion. For while the mind of man looketh upon
>>second causes scattered, it may sometimes rest in them,
>>and go no further; but when it beholdeth the chain of
>>them, confederate and linked together, it must needs fly to
>>Providence and Deity."
>> -- Francis Bacon, _Of Atheism_
>
>
>
> Much as I disagree with Bacon's conclusion, I have
>to admit that's the noblest exposition of the "Argument
>from Design" I've ever seen. It's marvellous what a
>person of real genius can do.
>
The prose is by way of being splendid -- what he is actually saying is
quite another matter -- he would have us believe that an inexplicable
event and then a series of linearizable events will somehow prove the
existence of divinity.
It seems that such a series of events will generate a sense that
science is still vital and is still in search of the nature of
reality. We are told of "string theory" and of "anti-matter." I
cannot understand these constructs but see in them no irresistible
force inclining me toward deism.
Preposterous Carey, on the other hand, cannot face the notion that
some things are, by the present day measure, inexplicable and look to
remain so for a good long time to come.
He fatuously imagines that this sense of uncertainty is indicative of
"depth in philosophy." An absurdity on the face of it.
ward
***********************************************************
"I am constantly mystified by this notion of "disagreeing"
with homosexuality -- not unlike disagreeing with Tuesday --
like it or not, every seven days, there it is -- TUESDAY.
uncle ward
***********************************************************
pa...@nospam.hsh.com
: Are you a Jefferson fan?
: You might like these:
[deleted for space; available in Jones' post]
All interesting, even if a couple seem to contradict whatever
point you thought you were making. (Since you didn't trouble to
actually _make_ a point, a guess must suffice. I'm guessing that
you're simply arguing that religion is a Bad Thing; I trust that
you will make haste to correct me if I'm wrong.)
Among your selective Jefferson quotes was this one:
: "Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the
: introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined
: and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards
: uniformity."
The _entire_ quote is more interesting:
"Millions of innocent men, women, and children since the
introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured,
fined, imprisoned, yet we have not advanced one inch toward
uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one
half the world fools, and the other half hypocrites."
(From his _Notes on the State of Virginia_ if I recall.)
In this, as in many of the other quotes you selectively edited,
Jefferson railed at state-supported religion. Yet you have chosen
to ignore an equally important belief of Jefferson's: his
unswerving belief in religious freedom for everyone.
"The constitutional freedom of religion [is] the most
inalienable and sacred of all human rights."
-- Thomas Jefferson, 'Virginia Board of Visitors Minutes,' 1819
"I will never, by any word or act, bow to the shrine of
intolerance or admit a right of inquiry into the religious
opinions of others."
-- Thomas Jefferson to Edward Dowse, 1803
Did you know that Thomas Jefferson wrote his own epitaph?
Author of the Declaration of American Independence
of the Statute of Virginia for Religious Freedom
and Father of the University of Virginia
Jefferson felt so strongly about absolute religious freedom that
he campaigned for 10 years to make it -- along with separation of
church and state -- a foundation of the laws of Virginia, as well
as of the fledgeling Republic.
The point, should it somehow not yet be clear, is that Jefferson
absolutely respected the rights of others to practice the
religion of their choice. Many would do well to do the same.
: "But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are
: twenty gods or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my
: leg."
This is another selectively edited quote (from Jefferson's _Notes
on the State of Virginia_) which is also rather more enlightening
in context...
"The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts
only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for
my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no God. It neither
picks my pocket nor breaks my leg."
...don't you think?
: And Jefferson was not exactly alone:
[deleted]
You're half right. The men you quoted -- Madison, Adams, Paine
-- shared with Jefferson an absolute and utter respect for the
religious beliefs of others. In fact, Madison was instrumental in
getting Jefferson's Bill for Establishing Religious Freedom passed
in the Virginia Legislature in 1786.
Sorry, but you don't get to present selective aspects of what
these men believed in order to support some one-sided argument;
it's a package deal. If you claim to respect what they said, you
must respect _all_ of what they said.
: Need more?
Well, if you're asking for suggestions, here's one: how about
demonstrating the same absolute respect for the beliefs of others
as the men whom you quoted?
Speaking of package deals:
"Still one thing more, fellow citizens - a wise and frugal government,
which shall restrain men from injuring one another, which shall leave
them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and
improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it
has earned."
-- Thomas Jefferson
Gosh, he sounds downright libertarian, doesn't he? ;}
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Paul Havemann,
who regrets the need to remove 'nospam' to reply by email.
"If he can step free of legal trouble, including obstruction of
justice, Mr. Clinton can tackle the task of doing something
positive with his remaining days in office. That would involve
a full, ungrudging, verifiable explanation to the American
people about what has gone on with regard to Ms. Lewinsky and
the other matters under investigation. It should also, in our
view, include an executive order to Attorney General Janet Reno
to appoint a special counsel to look into campaign finance. A
Bill Clinton who was not burdened by secrets as to personal conduct
and who had nothing to hide on campaign money would probably
feel almost weightless..."
-- NY Times editorial, July 29, 1998
Bill Thacker
>In alt.fan.dan-quayle Earle Jones <ejon...@concentric.net> sez:
> "The constitutional freedom of religion [is] the most
> inalienable and sacred of all human rights."
> -- Thomas Jefferson, 'Virginia Board of Visitors Minutes,' 1819
>
...
>Jefferson felt so strongly about absolute religious freedom that
>he campaigned for 10 years to make it -- along with separation of
>church and state -- a foundation of the laws of Virginia, as well
>as of the fledgeling Republic.
>
>The point, should it somehow not yet be clear, is that Jefferson
>absolutely respected the rights of others to practice the
>religion of their choice.
From the quotes provided, that's not entirely clear. What is clear is
that Jefferson thought that the government had no right to interfere
with peoples' religious freedom. Perhaps he thought (as do I) that
religions like Christianity are utter foolishness, that individuals
have both the right and the duty to speak against them, but that the
government must be powerless to interfere with it.
> "I will never, by any word or act, bow to the shrine of
> intolerance or admit a right of inquiry into the religious
> opinions of others."
> -- Thomas Jefferson to Edward Dowse, 1803
This would appear to contradict my hunch, but I note that in 1803,
Jefferson was President. I suspect that he was speaking as Chief
Executive, rather than as an individual. His statement resembles
Article VI of the Constitution, which discusses the swearing-in of
elected officials and adds, "but no religious test shall ever be
required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the
United States." Guesswork on my part - if Paul could provide the full
text of this letter to Dowse, it should clear it up.
Nor does it surprise me that Jefferson might love religious freedom.
At the time of the revolution, this meant "not being punished for not
following the State religion." All atheists support religious
freedom in that sense.
>Well, if you're asking for suggestions, here's one: how about
>demonstrating the same absolute respect for the beliefs of others
>as the men whom you quoted?
I vow not to use the power of the government to hinder religious
freedom. But as an individual, I consider it a moral duty to help
theists find enlightenment, and I will counter their mythology with
truth wherever I can. I respect each person's right to choose, but I
need not respect their choice.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Bill Thacker gun...@ds.net
Bill's Rail Buggy Page: http://www.ds.net/~gunner/buggy/buggy.html
"A fanatic is someone who knows what God would want if only He knew
the facts of the case." - unknown
frank w elliott jr
No, it can be found in moslem fundementalism, too. The Sharia
specifies death for gay sex. Many moslem countries also practice
clitoridectomies. Will the Radical Religious Reich start demanding
that too? Watch out Phyllis Schaffly!
Frank
Ward Stewart
>In alt.fan.dan-quayle Earle Jones <ejon...@concentric.net> sez:
>
>: Are you a Jefferson fan?
>
>: You might like these:
>
>[deleted for space; available in Jones' post]
>
>All interesting, even if a couple seem to contradict whatever
>point you thought you were making. (Since you didn't trouble to
>actually _make_ a point, a guess must suffice. I'm guessing that
He would seem to have made point enough so that you are rushing to
contradict him.
>you're simply arguing that religion is a Bad Thing; I trust that
>you will make haste to correct me if I'm wrong.)
MY assertion in the matter, posted often in alt.politics.
homosexuality, is not that religion is a BAD thing but it is NOT by
definition a sort of generic GOOD thing. Supposedly "religious"
beliefs, combined with an underlying homophobia, are the basic vehicle
for the derogation of MY minority.
We are barred from the institutions and protections of our government
by reason of what these folks imagine that the bible has said in the
matter -- a biblical opinion which, even if it were true, would be an
irrelevance in our secular republic,
Mike Jones
MIke.
--
"That this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of
freedom, and that
government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall
not perish
from the earth."
-- Abraham Lincoln, Gettysburg,1863
pa...@nospam.hsh.com
: <pa...@nospam.hsh.com> wrote:
:
:> "The constitutional freedom of religion [is] the most
:> -- Thomas Jefferson, 'Virginia Board of Visitors Minutes,' 1819
:>
: ...
:> Jefferson felt so strongly about absolute religious freedom that
:> he campaigned for 10 years to make it -- along with separation of
:> church and state -- a foundation of the laws of Virginia, as well
:> as of the fledgeling Republic.
:>
:> The point, should it somehow not yet be clear, is that Jefferson
:> absolutely respected the rights of others to practice the
:> religion of their choice.
: From the quotes provided, that's not entirely clear. What is clear is
: that Jefferson thought that the government had no right to interfere
: with peoples' religious freedom. Perhaps he thought (as do I) that
: religions like Christianity are utter foolishness, that individuals
: have both the right and the duty to speak against them, but that the
: government must be powerless to interfere with it.
I believe that you are incorrect as to your first clause;
Jefferson considered himself a religious man and a Christian, in
that he believed in the moral teachings of Jesus. However, he
rejected the notion of Biblical revelation -- which, in his day,
caused many to consider him not a 'real' Christian. To this he
retorted that he was "a sect of one."
:> "I will never, by any word or act, bow to the shrine of
:> intolerance or admit a right of inquiry into the religious
:> opinions of others."
:> -- Thomas Jefferson to Edward Dowse, 1803
: This would appear to contradict my hunch, but I note that in 1803,
: Jefferson was President. I suspect that he was speaking as Chief
: Executive, rather than as an individual.
Not entirely; he is on record from years before then expressing
precisely the same sentiment. Remember that he fought for a
decade to have his religious freedom act passed in Virginia.
: His statement resembles
: Article VI of the Constitution, which discusses the swearing-in of
: elected officials and adds, "but no religious test shall ever be
: required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the
: United States." Guesswork on my part - if Paul could provide the full
: text of this letter to Dowse, it should clear it up.
I don't have it in front of me, but a place to begin looking might
be at <http://extext.virginia.edu/jefferson/quotations/jeffcont.htm>.
: Nor does it surprise me that Jefferson might love religious freedom.
: At the time of the revolution, this meant "not being punished for not
: following the State religion." All atheists support religious
: freedom in that sense.
If you're claiming that Jefferson was an atheist, I respectfully
submit that you're all wet. ;}
:> Well, if you're asking for suggestions, here's one: how about
:> demonstrating the same absolute respect for the beliefs of others
:> as the men whom you quoted?
: I vow not to use the power of the government to hinder religious
: freedom. But as an individual, I consider it a moral duty to help
: theists find enlightenment, and I will counter their mythology with
: truth wherever I can. I respect each person's right to choose, but I
: need not respect their choice.
As a declaration of personal principles goes, that's pretty good;
it could be adapted to fit others of the Bill of Rights in
addition to the First Amendment. And the first sentence,
broadened to include the entire Bill of Rights, should be part of
every politician's oath of office. ;}
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Paul Havemann,
who regrets the need to remove 'nospam' to reply by email.
"[Mr. Clinton should issue] an executive order to Attorney
pa...@nospam.hsh.com
: On Fri, 11 Sep 1998 14:58:08 GMT, pa...@nospam.hsh.com wrote:
: >In alt.fan.dan-quayle Earle Jones <ejon...@concentric.net> sez:
: >you're simply arguing that religion is a Bad Thing; I trust that
: >you will make haste to correct me if I'm wrong.)
: MY assertion in the matter, posted often in alt.politics.
: homosexuality, is not that religion is a BAD thing but it is NOT by
: definition a sort of generic GOOD thing. Supposedly "religious"
: beliefs, combined with an underlying homophobia, are the basic vehicle
: for the derogation of MY minority.
Well, I don't want to go off on a tangent, and I'm certainly no
apologist for (let alone rigid practitioner of) organized
religion, but I would just point out that religion is warped by
some (not all) practioners as simply a vehicle for their
expressions of homophobia. There are a helluva lot of bigots who
don't need any justification or rationale for their prejudice --
they simply _are_ prejudiced.
To denounce religion _per se_ for the practices of some is akin
to denouncing all sneaker manufacturers because of Nike's
child-labor practices in Asia -- or denouncing all homosexuals
because of the tactics of Act Up -- or all environmentalists for
the actions of the Earth First fanatics.
Religion is no different from any other belief system -- it can
be a force for good, or for evil, depending on how it is used...
or abused.
Rev. Billy
(Don't worry, he wasn't good at it.)
Nice page you have there at:
http://www.imagin.net/~mdjones/
Do you usually use it to bash gays ???
Or are you just starting to come out ??
Do your students at North Lake College in Irving,
Texas know your a basher?? Does the administraton know ???
JERK!
Bill long
above his roots.
Clinton started life with so many strikes against him.
He was poor, prob. a bastard, born in Arkansas, and raised in the
Southern Baptist church.
He used his very good intellect to over come most of his roots to become
president of the United Sttes.
The one thing he has not been able to overcome is his upbringing in
the Southern Baptist church.
It is a part of their creed that thir members be hypocrites and liers
when it comes to sex. It is demanded of every member to do one thing
and swear to another when it comes to something as natural as sex. The
only rule that Bill Clinton broke was 'don't get caught'. If ones acts
become public it is the sworn duty of all the other hypocrites to 'stone
the transgressor to death' or as close to it as the law will allow.
Hell hath not fury as one Baptist or fundie hypocrite toward another
who has broken this rule and had their activities or lies become
public.
I felt that when Bill Clinton signed the DOMA bill, that his Southern
Baptist roots were going to possibily destroy him, because he still had
that ting of fundie madnesss that he had not been able to fully
overcome.
Bill Clinton is still a young man. Perhaps in time he can over come
this flaw and realise his full potential as the leader he really is.
Bill Long
Ward Stewart
I have NEVER suggested otherwise! I am absolutory aware that the
Christianity that provided the "biblical" justification for slavery
and the century plus of American Apartheid that followed it is the
SAME religious tradition that brought us Sojourner Truth, Martin
Luther King and Desmond Tutu.
HOWEVER, the voices so stridently raised against us and against our
lives are firmly Christian as was (is) the KKK. Be reminded that it
was a cross that was burned on the hillside.
maff91
Jefferson was a Deist.
http://www.louisville.edu/~tnpete01/church/qtable.htm
http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/thomas_paine/age_of_reason/intro.html
>
>:> "I will never, by any word or act, bow to the shrine of
>:> intolerance or admit a right of inquiry into the religious
>:> opinions of others."
>:> -- Thomas Jefferson to Edward Dowse, 1803
>
>: This would appear to contradict my hunch, but I note that in 1803,
>: Jefferson was President. I suspect that he was speaking as Chief
>: Executive, rather than as an individual.
>
>Not entirely; he is on record from years before then expressing
>precisely the same sentiment. Remember that he fought for a
>decade to have his religious freedom act passed in Virginia.
>
>: His statement resembles
>: Article VI of the Constitution, which discusses the swearing-in of
>: elected officials and adds, "but no religious test shall ever be
>: required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the
>: United States." Guesswork on my part - if Paul could provide the full
>: text of this letter to Dowse, it should clear it up.
>
>I don't have it in front of me, but a place to begin looking might
>be at <http://extext.virginia.edu/jefferson/quotations/jeffcont.htm>.
>
>: Nor does it surprise me that Jefferson might love religious freedom.
>: At the time of the revolution, this meant "not being punished for not
>: following the State religion." All atheists support religious
>: freedom in that sense.
>
>If you're claiming that Jefferson was an atheist, I respectfully
>submit that you're all wet. ;}
Nope. He was for freedom of religion as well as freedom from religion.
Please don't forget that until 1791, the major denomination in each
state was collecting tithe from every one in the state regardless of
whether they belonged to that denomination.
>
>:> Well, if you're asking for suggestions, here's one: how about
>:> demonstrating the same absolute respect for the beliefs of others
>:> as the men whom you quoted?
>
>: I vow not to use the power of the government to hinder religious
>: freedom. But as an individual, I consider it a moral duty to help
>: theists find enlightenment, and I will counter their mythology with
>: truth wherever I can. I respect each person's right to choose, but I
>: need not respect their choice.
>
>As a declaration of personal principles goes, that's pretty good;
>it could be adapted to fit others of the Bill of Rights in
>addition to the First Amendment. And the first sentence,
>broadened to include the entire Bill of Rights, should be part of
>every politician's oath of office. ;}
>
>
>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
>
>Paul Havemann,
>who regrets the need to remove 'nospam' to reply by email.
>
> "[Mr. Clinton should issue] an executive order to Attorney
> General Janet Reno to appoint a special counsel to look into
> campaign finance. A Bill Clinton who was not burdened by secrets
> as to personal conduct and who had nothing to hide on campaign
> money would probably feel almost weightless..."
>
> -- NY Times editorial, July 29, 1998
Newt's Bible
-------------------
"Newt Gingrich has been a avid follower of de Waal's work for years.
He has even placed de Waal's Chimpanzee Politics: Power and Sex among
the Apes on his recommended reading list, along with better known
texts such as the Declaration of Independence, the U.S. Constitution,
and the Federalist Papers. What secrets has Gingrich gleaned from our
simian cousins? In short, how to win power by forming tactical
coalitions and mounting fierce psychological attacks on those blocking
the way... It's a strategy Gingrich aped in his assault on former
Speaker Jim Wright." -- Elizabeth Lesly, Business Week
http://www.press.jhu.edu/press/books/titles/s98/s98dech.htm
maff91
Very true except that some Fundies claim that only religious people
can be moral. They also seek to impose their agenda in violation of
the 1st amendment.
maff91
wrote:
>As my daddy used to say: "Homosexuals suck".
>
>
>MIke.
>--
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> "That this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of
>freedom, and that
> government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall
>not perish
> from the earth."
> -- Abraham Lincoln, Gettysburg,1863
Abraham Lincoln, American president (1809-1865).
In 2000 Years of Disbelief by James A. Haught, Lincoln is
mentioned on pages 125 through 127. From the material presented it
would seem that Lincoln as a young man was and avid anti-christian and
most likely an atheist. Some examples:
John T. Stuart, Lincoln's first law partner: "He was an avowed
and open infidel, and sometimes bordered on Atheism...He went further
against Christian beliefs and doctrines and principles than any man I
ever heard."
Joseph Lewis quoting Lincoln in a 1924 speech in New York: " The
Bible is not my book nor Christianity my profession. I could never
give assent to the long, complicated statements of Christian dogma."
Lincoln in a letter to Judge J.S. Wakefield, after the death of
Willie Lincoln: "My earlier views of the unsoundness of the Christian
scheme of salvation and the human origin of the scriptures have become
clearer and stronger with advancing years, and I see no reason for
thinking I shall ever change them."
As a young man Lincoln apparently wrote a manuscript that he
planned to publish, which vehemently argued against the divine origin
of the Bible and the Christian scheme of salvation. Samuel Hill a
friend and mentor convinced him to drop it, considering the disastrous
consequences it would have on his political career.
William H Herndon a former law partner wrote a biography on
Lincoln titled: "The true story of a great life" in it Herndon
discusses Lincoln's religious views extensively.
Richard Stenzel
Does Bill Clinton have a mind of his own, or is he merely a puppet of the
Southern Baptist Theology? Is he even Southern Baptist?
R. Stenzel
Bill long wrote in message <35FB51...@pacbell.net>...
Ward Stewart
wrote:
>On Sat, 12 Sep 1998 01:05:02 GMT, pa...@nospam.hsh.com wrote:
>
>>In alt.fan.dan-quayle Ward Stewart <wste...@hi.net> sez:
>>: On Fri, 11 Sep 1998 14:58:08 GMT, pa...@nospam.hsh.com wrote:
>>: >In alt.fan.dan-quayle Earle Jones <ejon...@concentric.net> sez:
>>
>>: >you're simply arguing that religion is a Bad Thing; I trust that
>>: >you will make haste to correct me if I'm wrong.)
>>
>>: MY assertion in the matter, posted often in alt.politics.
>>: homosexuality, is not that religion is a BAD thing but it is NOT by
>>: definition a sort of generic GOOD thing. Supposedly "religious"
>>: beliefs, combined with an underlying homophobia, are the basic vehicle
>>: for the derogation of MY minority.
>>
>>Well, I don't want to go off on a tangent, and I'm certainly no
>>apologist for (let alone rigid practitioner of) organized
>>religion, but I would just point out that religion is warped by
>>some (not all) practioners as simply a vehicle for their
>>expressions of homophobia. There are a helluva lot of bigots who
>>don't need any justification or rationale for their prejudice --
>>they simply _are_ prejudiced.
>>
>>To denounce religion _per se_ for the practices of some is akin
>>to denouncing all sneaker manufacturers because of Nike's
>>child-labor practices in Asia --
Your parallel is, in my case, profoundly inexact -- what I am
suggesting is that large manufacturers of sneakers who spend more on
advertising than they do on their product should be viewed with
suspicion.
ward
=====================================================
"Well, art is art, isn't it? Still, on the other hand,
water is water! And East is East and West is West and
if you take cranberries and stew them like applesauce
they taste more like prunes than a rhubarb does.
Now, uh.. Now you tell me what you know."
-Marx-
=====================================================
Donald King
[Snip to .sig]
>- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>Bill Thacker gun...@ds.net
> Bill's Rail Buggy Page: http://www.ds.net/~gunner/buggy/buggy.html
>
>"A fanatic is someone who knows what God would want if only He knew
>the facts of the case." - unknown
>
The proper quote from your .sig is this:
"A fanatic is a man that does what he thinks the Lord
would do if He knew the facts of the case."
-- F.P. Dunne, 1890
I actually keep a list of my favorite .sigs (Ack! It's 13KB today!), and I
recognized this one right away. It's one of my top ten favorites.
==============================================================
Donald King, http://www.geocities.com/WestHollywood/Park/3206/
"The opposite of a correct statement is a false
statement, but the opposite of a profound
truth may well be another profound truth."
-- Niels Bohr
Steve Smith
> To blame a man's indiscretions on a religious sect is ludicrous.
Why? No sillier to credit vices than virtues to his religion.
> Does Bill Clinton have a mind of his own, or is he merely a puppet of the
> Southern Baptist Theology? Is he even Southern Baptist?
Good question. Formally, Clinton is a Southern Baptist (as is Al Gore),
at least the last I heard. However, the Southern Baptist Convention
(SBC) is a strange beast. A Baptist is anybody who says they're a
Baptist. There is no central Baptist authority, Suuthern or otherwise.
However, the SBC issues "guidelines" that Southern Baptist *churches*
are expected to follow. Presumably, if a church doesn't follow them,
it's some other flavor of Baptist.
Early in his presidency, Clinton tried to speak to the SBC. He was
essentially drummed out of the Church for not immediately rubber-
stamping the Convention's "moral" policies. (Extreme anti- abortion,
extreme anti- homosexuality, extreme anti- evolution, SBC approved
school prayers, etc.) Note that the SBC officially issues guidelines
for churches, not marching orders for individuals.
So "Is he is or is he ain't"? I dunno. I don't see as how it matters.
--
Steve Smith sgs...@acm.org
Agincourt Computing +1 (301) 681 7395
"If I can't dance, I'm not joining your revolution."
DRS
:To blame a man's indiscretions on a religious sect is ludicrous.
:Does Bill Clinton have a mind of his own, or is he merely a puppet of the
:Southern Baptist Theology? Is he even Southern Baptist?
He is a Southern Baptist.
--
Beware of the Spam-Dog
mdeli
should be stopped before our innocent youth become corrupt by learning
something about adult sex.
Lest God forsake us we must put an immediate end to this present day
creeping moral depravity. What is urgently needed is strict government
surveillance of immoral sexual activity. Only vigilance will put an
end to this kind of Un-American behavior.
It is due time that we set up an UN-AMERICAN SEXUAL ACTIVITIES
COMMITTEE in the spirit of that great American Senator Joe MacCarthy.
I suggest that K. Starr a man with vast experience in ferreting out
Un-american sex should immediately be appointed Sex Czar.
--
Mani DeLi
...no skill no art
Check out my webpage (updated Sept.13 - new pictures) to see some of my work and a Skeptical View of Modern Art at: http://www.interlog.com/~hugod
pa...@nospam.hsh.com
: America has obviously gone down the road of sexual immorality. This
: should be stopped before our innocent youth become corrupt by learning
: something about adult sex.
: Lest God forsake us we must put an immediate end to this present day
: creeping moral depravity. What is urgently needed is strict government
: surveillance of immoral sexual activity. Only vigilance will put an
: end to this kind of Un-American behavior.
: It is due time that we set up an UN-AMERICAN SEXUAL ACTIVITIES
: COMMITTEE in the spirit of that great American Senator Joe MacCarthy.
: I suggest that K. Starr a man with vast experience in ferreting out
: Un-american sex should immediately be appointed Sex Czar.
Suggested reading: "The Art of Zen Trolling," a first-rate book
written by Usenet-junkie-turned-writer Frank D.C. Fontana. It may
help you do better next time. You can buy it from Amazon.Com,
though you may have seen the TV commercials -- it's usually on
after the Loostner's infomercial.
Sorry, offer not valid after curfew in sectors "R" and "M."
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Paul "give me immortality or give me death!" Havemann,
*The* Didaskalos
alt.politics.homosexuality:
== Pioneer wrote:
== > Don Wildmon's American Family Association has been increasingly on the
== > forefront of the Radical Religious Right and the efforts to impose a very
== > conservative, evangelical Christian morality on America.
==
== Just like Thomas Jefferson:
==
== "Whosoever is guilty of rape, polygamy, or sodomy, shall be punished;
== if a man, by castration; if a woman, by boring through the cartilege
== of her nose a hole of one half inch in diameter at the least."
== ---Thomas Jefferson, in his recommendations
== of laws for Virginia
==
== See pp. 355, 356 of "Writings of Thomas Jefferson" (c. 1984, Literary
== Classics of the United States ISBN# 0 521 26344 1) or Dumas Malone's
== first volume of his bio of Thomas Jefferson, "Jefferson the Virginian",
== p. 272.
==
Malone says on page 271, "His bill was finally rejected in his own
country, largely because it mitigated penalties in advance of eneral
public opinion -- as, for example, in the case of horse stealing. From
the point of view of contemporary philosophers and from that of
enlightened opinion today, its chief weakness lay in the particular
penalties he substituted for death. He had recourse to the _lex
talionis_ in certain cases. Afterwards he said that he could not
remember just why this was; but contemporary records show that it was
partly because of his own general policy of going back to simple
ancient precedents, and partly because of the judgment of his fellow
revisors. Thus, when speaking of his draft to Wythe, he said:
"'I have strictly observed the scale of punishments settled by the
Committee, without being entirely satisfied with it. The lex talionis,
altho' a restitution of the Common law to the simplicity of which we
have generally found it so advantageous to return will be revolting to
the humanised feelings of modern times. An eye for an eye, a hand for
a hand will exhibit spectacles in execution whose moral effect will be
questionable; and even the membrum pro membro of Bracton, or the
punishment of the offending memger, altho' long authorised by our law,
for the same offense in a slave, has you know been not lng since
repealed in conformity with public sentiment.'
"The matter may have been reconsidered but the scale appears to have
been left without material change. At all events, the following
section appeared ultimately in cold print:
(there follows the quote you gave)
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Our thought for the day, a lesson from history:
"All members of the SS and police must be in the forefront of
the fight to eliminate homosexuality from the German people."
-- Heinrich Himmler, March 7, 1942 Memorandum.
(Imperial War Museum, London, H/6/165)
Are you a political or religious Conservative?
Remember this: those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it.
satyr
>Sorry, offer not valid after curfew in sectors "R" and "M."
Oh they never come up into the hills.
pa...@nospam.hsh.com
Thank you for your response to the COUNTDOWN TO HAR-MAGEDON.
Though there are many views of the coming days, but only one will prove its
worth.
Today mankind lives on the verge of great joy or great calamity.
Each person MUST place themselves at the feet of the One who will decide each
ones fate.
Such cannot be found in the books of the world's so-called intellects.
Such guidance can only be found in the greatest words of wisdom ever compiled
into one work.
The book that has withstood the sands of time and has proved unerring in its
guidance and direction for the human family.
One message found there states: "Having examined everything, the conclusion is,
fear the true God and keep that one's commandments. For this is the WHOLE
OBLIGATION OF MAN."
This unerring fact cannot be found lacking in any way.
So too today, this fact is true: "To the writing of many books there is no end,
and spending time with them is wearisome to the flesh."
This may not be the words desired by those that make their livelihood by such
endeavor.
But, those inspired words of the king have endured and will endure until the
moon is no more.
May you find the truth while it can still be found.
JUST CALL ME JONAH
John Ings <nospam.j...@ottawa.com> wrote in article
<35f4b6ea...@crc-news.doc.ca>...
> On 7 Sep 1998 04:45:09 GMT, " JONAH" <anew...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> >
> >The world is in a a state of chaos, from which it will NEVER recover!
> >
> >As the days continue to spill forth one crisis after another, you will not
be
> >able to save it.
>
> There's a new book out Mr. Jonah, that you need to read.
> You can probably find it at one of those Christian book stores.
> It is called
> "The Last Days are Here Again: A History of the End Times"
> by Richard Kyle
>
>
>
>
>
>
> john...@ottawa.com
>
Jeff Wilson
Is Jesus Christ actually God?
John 17:3, RS: "[Jesus prayed to his Father:] This is eternal life, that
they know thee the only true God ["who alone art truly God," NE], and Jesus
Christ whom thou hast sent." (Notice that Jesus referred not to himself but
to his Father in heaven as "the only true God.")
John 20:17, RS: "Jesus said to her [Mary Magdalene], 'Do not hold me, for I
have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to my brethren and say to them,
I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'" (So
to the resurrected Jesus, the Father was God, just as the Father was God to
Mary Magdalene. Interestingly, not once in Scripture do we find the Father
addressing the Son as "my God.")
Well I certainly cannot find where Jesus said he was God.
Peace
Jerry Martin
ò GOD ó
<35FC6A04...@sprynet.com>...
>Rev. Illuminatus Maximus wrote:
>>If you read foreign newspapers you will see that we are pretty much the
>>laughing stock of the world right now.
>
>1) Foreign nations are laughing because fools elected Clinton.
Nah, France is laughing because they've been bamboozled by the it's only sex
propaganda.
>> just 'cause the guy's human and has a penis.
>
> 2) Great case to elect a woman. :)
Yes! Just don't ruin it and say Hillary R Clinton.
--
-HS
[ Curator of the Children's poisonous reptile petting zoo ]
[ (NEW!) Now also discount Gila monster bite insurance broker! ]
mdeli
>But Holiday is right, children are natural pagans and it is fun to watch
>them develop....
I didn't say this, but I agree with it!
Holiday
Allen
The following post is a FORGERY. I never wrote it. Although the post
did not contain anything offensive, I can't help but think that this
person could have plenty of ill-intentions in mind.
Our recent experience with RAW who may have been a forger who used the
identity of a real person is something to bear in mind.
People on APH and other groups, be aware. And to the slime who is
doing this, I AM WATCHING.
Allen
-------------------
From: afb...@HATESPAMhotmail.com (Allen)
Newsgroups:
alt.atheism,talk.atheism,alt.atheism.satire,alt.politics.homosexuality,talk.politics.misc,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.fan.dan-quayle,alt.religion.christian.baptist,alt.religion.christian,alt.christnet.evangelical
Subject: Re: *American Family Association & Homosexuality
Date: 15 Sep 1998 06:43:01 GMT
Lines: 3
Message-ID: <6tl29l$5vu$t...@207.212.27.40>
References: <6ss9qm$4cr$1...@clarknet.clark.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.212.27.40
Path: news.oz.net!news.alt.net!netroplex.com!usenet
Xref: news.oz.net alt.politics.homosexuality:258599
Ettins and giants were considered the same in norse mythology, it
should not be
mistaken for the ettins in the D&D monster manual :)
---------------------------
afb...@HATESPAMhotmail.com
Address fudged to foil spam-bots. Take out the HATESPAM for correct address.
Allen
The following post is a FORGERY. I never wrote it. Although the post
did not contain anything offensive, I can't help but think that this
person could have plenty of ill-intentions in mind. The From, Path,
and XRef lines have been faked. But the IP address in the message ID
shows that Netroplex is where the message originated, not my ISP
(oz.net).
pa...@nospam.hsh.com
*The* Didaskalos <thedidaskalosTAKEM...@hotmail.com> sez:
: Remember this: those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it.
Tell it to Bill Clinton, who seems not to have learned
from Richard Nixon that it's not the crime, but the coverup.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Paul Havemann,
frank w elliott jr
: Karen Sieradski <ksier...@sprynet.com> wrote in article
: >> just 'cause the guy's human and has a penis.
: >
: > 2) Great case to elect a woman. :)
Like Helen Chenoweth, Republican Militia Queen, Defender of
Family Values, and Adultress?
Women can be horny and hypocritical, too.
: Yes! Just don't ruin it and say Hillary R Clinton.
Gore/Clinton '98 (Hillary Clinton, that is.)
--Frank
Mattheq
wrote:
> As my daddy used to say: "Homosexuals suck".
And what did your other daddy say?
Mattheq
--
"And then, one Thursday nearly two thousand years after one man had been
nailed to a tree for saying how great it would be to be nice to people for a
change..." http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Station/9079/ Drop in!
IA i^8 His Holiness, Pope Mattheq I
Mattheq
calling for supression of gay people and yet none of them are gay?
Casey
pa...@nospam.hsh.com who must have wanted the whole cyber community to see
the reply:
>Thank you for your response to the COUNTDOWN TO HAR-MAGEDON.
>
>Though there are many views of the coming days, but only one will prove its
>worth.
And we'll tell you which one after the event.
>Today mankind lives on the verge of great joy or great calamity.
How profound. Today I will have either a good day or a bad day.
>Each person MUST place themselves at the feet of the One who will decide
each
>ones fate.
And who would that be? Rupert Murdoch? Bill Clinton? My boss? The
Pillsbury doughboy?
>Such cannot be found in the books of the world's so-called intellects.
But I'm sure thay you, oh wise one, know the answer and are about to tell
us.
>Such guidance can only be found in the greatest words of wisdom ever
compiled
>into one work.
Oh good, I have a copy of Bartletts Quotations right here on my shelf.
>The book that has withstood the sands of time and has proved unerring in
its
>guidance and direction for the human family.
It has withstood much. It survived a flood, survived my children's formative
years minus a few pages. Must admit that I haven't tried to use it as a
compass.
>
>One message found there states: "Having examined everything, the conclusion
is,
>fear the true God and keep that one's commandments. For this is the WHOLE
>OBLIGATION OF MAN."
You must be reading from a later printing. If by "the true God" you mean the
tribal god of the jews, were he real you would do well to be shit scared.
He was one bad motherfucker. What did he need all those foreskins for?
Maybe he dabbled in leather craft?
>This unerring fact cannot be found lacking in any way.
Oh good, The Wise One has found an unerring fact. I'm sorry, I must have
missed it.
>
>So too today, this fact is true: "To the writing of many books there is no
end,
>and spending time with them is wearisome to the flesh."
If your flesh is getting weary, you should put down that Playboy and stop
abusing yourself. The callouses will heal.
>
>This may not be the words desired by those that make their livelihood by
such
>endeavor.
I see. Anyone who in in the business of distributing information today is
doomed.
>
>But, those inspired words of the king have endured and will endure until
the
>moon is no more.
Words like, "I aint nothing but a hound dog?"
>
>May you find the truth while it can still be found.
Haven't found any here.
>
>JUST CALL ME JONAH
I think it's time for you to take a swim. There is a big fish out there
with your name on it.
CASEY
Just add water, Makes it's own sauce!
It's a way of life.
Casey
ň GOD ó <óftyóf34d@ódx6syss.com> wrote in message
<6tl2fq$5vu$1...@207.212.27.40>...><35FC6A04...@sprynet.com>...
Who can't seem to make up his mind who he wants to talk to.
>>Rev. Illuminatus Maximus wrote:
>>>If you read foreign newspapers you will see that we are pretty much the
>>>laughing stock of the world right now.
>>
>>1) Foreign nations are laughing because fools elected Clinton.
Writing from a foreign nation I can tell you that no one is laughing and
many are perplexed and perturbed that a duly elected, and to all
appearances, competent leader of the free world is being pilloried by an
anal minority who are intent on damaging the world economies through this
minor situation. America has a president who likes to get his dick wet.
Big deal. Kissinger said that power is the greatest aphrodisiac. After
twelve years under Right wing weirdos who repeatedly fucked the American
working man holding a huge party for the rich that your grand children will
still be paying for, You want to roast this guy over the coals because he is
human.
Look at the poles. The majority of the American population wants you right
wing fundies to go and fuck yourselves.
Lu Lu Pironi
people to use their own idenities when posting.
Thanks,
Sincerely, Gary
g...@iag.net, SEE Trinity vs. Heresy
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Troy/3186/
Gary [DID NOT] wrote in message <6tl2oe$5vu$1...@207.212.27.40>...
>It is my understanding that of the two major interpretations of the last
>supper that only one can extend to mean the spilling also of the disciples
>blood as being necessarily included as an integral part of the final
>testament. Literally laying down our lives for Jesus.
>Disciples are the body on earth of Christ now. The head is in heaven
>interceeding with the Father on our behalf: Jesus Himself.
>The blood of witnesses continues to be shed today everywhere.
>As we share in the suffering we are biblically entitled to share in the
>Glory. 'Afflict yourselves' says Gods Word. Mainly by fasting , long prayer
>watches, and persecution ( even in a modern country) for preaching the
>Gospel so hard as to invite persecution. The blessings and power of a true
>gospel always come with suffering. No truth equals no power: and no
>persecution means no reliable spiritual blessing.
>
>While communion includes Jesus Himself and our remembrance of him, it also
>must mean that our blood, and our bodies too are to be included in his
>glorious suffering.
>
>Please see the scene set below, in scripture, and imagine ourselves
>included in the blessed suffering and foolishness of preaching the true
>gospel.
>
>All the best.
>
>Matthew 26:26 è©›nd as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it,
>and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my
>body.
>27 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying,
>Drink ye all of it;
>28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for
>the remission of sins.
>
>Mark 14:22 And as they did eat, Jesus took bread, and blessed, and brake
>it, and gave to them, and said, Take, eat: this is my body.
>23 And he took the cup, and when he had given thanks, he gave it to them:
>and they all drank of it.
>24 And he said unto them, This is my blood of the new testament, which is
>shed for many.
>
>Luke 22:18 For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine,
>until the kingdom of God shall come.
>19 And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them,
>saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of
>me.
>20 Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new
>testament in my blood, which is shed for you.
>
>John 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in
>thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou
>hast sent me.
>
>
>
>--
>ALLELUIA Philip John James O'Sullivan apostle AT paradise DOTnet DOT nz
>(48) Artist, tutor and preacher.
>One son, one grandson. Keen revival intercessor. Send e-mail for audio
>tapes freely available.
>Will preach by invitation and by prompting of Holy Ghost. In contact with
>evangelists in Sri-Lanka
>India & Myanmar. After sinful life in art scene converted to Christ in
>1988. MARANATHA
> Creation SCIENCE on the World Wide Web
><http://emporium.turnpike.net/C/cs/links.htm> Freeware, etc;
>http://www.christianshareware.net/StudyTools/
>
>
Allen
--WebTV-Mail-2138890757-6579
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hi steve,
no posts on ARAS so I thought I would check out this page.Should ave
read your post first!!!! oh well, I survived, no a/o.
jerry
--WebTV-Mail-2138890757-6579
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<html><A
HREF="http://members.xoom.com/therpgmaster/what_a_difference.html"><IMG
SRC="http://www.crosswinds.net/jacksonville/~jerryfr/blueribbon.jpg"
alt:"click here to goto my "what a difference you made"
page"></A><br>click on ribbon<BR>
for an inspirationl<br>
and uplifting true<BR>
story! WHO YOU ARE<BR>
<FONT SIZE=+2><BLACKFACE><U>DOES</U></BLACKFACE></FONT><BR>
MAKE A DIFFERENCE!!
--WebTV-Mail-2138890757-6579--
frank w elliott jr
The forest life's for me
Out here among the trees;
Out here with the creatures
The birds and the bees
Out here with my God I am free,
I'm free,
Out here with my God I am Free.
No city sounds I hear
To fill my heart with fear.
No boss-man to shout: "Do this
Or Get Out!"
No house to clean, or clothes
To preen –
Or a futile life, that makes me
Want to SCREAM !
Out here with my God I am free
I'm free,
Out here with my God I am FREE ! !
Love, Corinne J.
frank w elliott jr
confusion" -- Man is!
Don't blame God for man's ignorance and misinterpretations.. please!
God would not give us an historical account that is not factual and true, nor
instructions for our learning that we cannot understand if we are honest and
humble.. "The meek will He teach"... (not the Greek which I happen to be, but
the meek -- meaning humble).. Pride is the worse sin of all. That's how
Lucifer fell! He wanted to be like "god".. Are you the little "god" of your
own life --
I have news for you -- you shall fail in your unbelief and ignorance!..
"If with all your heart you truly seek me -- you shall surely find Me, saith
the Lord"
"The fool hath said in his heart there is no God"..
"The heart is deceived and desperately wicked -- who can know it?"
Only God really knows you through and through for He made you and not you
yourself.. Better to trust in God than your own reasonings...
I marvel at the longsuffering patience of the Great Creator of the Universe,
things seen and unseen... Whether you like it or not, whoever you are, God
shall prevail and He shall have the last say, and every mouth shall be stopped
in His presence! I personally am very grateful for His forgiveness and mercy..
In Christ's love, Cathy
frank w elliott jr
>Mike....@cc122950-a.avnl1.nj.home.com (Mike Ruskai) wrote:
>> Da...@xout.u.wahington.edu to All
>> > maf...@dial.pipex.com (maff91) wrote:
>> >>"Vernon o" <ver...@contractor.net> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>>Well there has not been a theocracy since Israel asked for Judges and
>Kings.
>> >>>There has never been a part of the U.S. constitution that even suggests
>> >>>separation of church and state.
>> >>
>> >>Nope. The 1st amendment erects the wall of separation. Also read why
>> >>the Founding Father erected the wall of separation.
>> >>
>> >>http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/ed_buckner/quotations.html
>> >>http://members.tripod.com/~candst/toc.htm
>> >>http://www.louisville.edu/~tnpete01/church/index.htm
>>
>> > "Separation" is but one interpretation. It seems to be the one most
>> > in vouge at this time even though the word "separation" does not appear
>> > in the CONUS or its ammendmants. The question now becomes "what is
>> > the meaning 'separation' with regard to curch and state?" One notes
>> > our haircut in chief, Baptist Billy, has called the nation to prayer on
>> > several occasions and that Congress opens in prayer.
>>
>> Separation is the only interpretation that keeps with the intentions of the
>> document. The document itself does not use the term "separation", but
>> those who were responsible for writing and signing the document did use
>> that term.
>
>Well one did anyway, but not in any legal document.
Aren't Supreme Court decisions legal documents?
>
>> That Congress opens with a prayer is simply illegal. We also have
>> religious sayings on our currency, also illegal.
>
>Really? Washington, Adams, Jefferson, Monroe - founding fathers all -
>they should have had a good idea of the intent of the CONUS and yet they
>allowed Congress to open in prayer - Yup, I guess they knew what was
>legal since they set it up ;-)
So is it the first time Presidents, Congressmen or Senators violate
the constitution?
>
>> Mike Ruskai SA/AG #1106
>> tha...@home.com
>>
>> ... Back off man...I'm a scientist.
>
>MOM! He's going to shoot me with his electron gun ...
Yep. Stand back....
>
>Dave Greene
>
>-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
>http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
frank w elliott jr
<jqpu...@netnitco.net> writes:
>MariZap wrote:
>
>> This is a joke, right? I went last year.
>
>Uh Mari-
>the things Lion King was talking about happened *this summer* not last year
Okay. I was there this summer AND last summer. Let's review what was said,
shall we?
BTW, why do you refer to Lion King 99 in the 3rd person?
LK aka CB: "The Sokagakkai has been desperately trying to promote their new
"Florida nature & culture center" [FNCC] as the new tozan for SGI members.
The multi-million dollar complex is located just west of Ft Lauderdale
and is situated on 125 acres of prime waterfront land."
You'd promote to too if you had ever been there. Now let's look at a
map....Oops, the prime waterfront land is on the EAST side of Ft. Lauderdale.
That huge blue part of the map -- that's the water.
LK aka CB says: "Time and time again they advertise the FNCC in their
publications, begging members to come and spend the $250 per room per night
plus expenses to sit around and listen to Sr SGI Leaders bemoan and bash
Nichiren Shoshu."
The cost is $375 for the whole weekend -- Thursday to Sunday. That includes
the room, the food, conference materials, sightseeing and transportation to and
from the airport. It does not include airfare.
LK aka CB says: "For example, in one of last month's world tribunes, there is a
full
color pull-out advertisement extolling the magnificence of the FNCC.
This advertisement cost them three times as much to layout and publish
than the crummy world tribune itself. Anybody who has seen the world
tribune knows that they use the cheapest paper and ink available. We
have issues from last year that already are faded worse than issues from
over 15 years ago."
I have no idea what the brochure cost. Neither does Craig. The WT is printed
on recycled paper.
LK aka CB says: "Every photo of the FNCC that SGI has published shows the place
is virtually empty. The facility is designed to host aproximately 500 members,
but the largest group they have had to date was only 20. And little wonder
since
the price of admission does not include airfare or even the bus tour."
Obviously, the brochure was designed to extol the facility -- not to be one of
those "Happy studentrs study in the quadrangle" hokey college come-ons.
Last year I attended the largest (at that point) gathering at the FNCC. There
were about 175 of us -- including local members. The dorms were full. It is
not designed toaccomodate anywhere near 500 overnight visitors. The conference
I attended this year was about the same size.
The price DOES include the bus tour. I think the only sightseeing admission
charge is for the boat rides on the Everglades. There are at least three
sightseeing options -- plus the option to not go sightseeing. Which I took
both times.
LK aka CB says: "They take every opportunity to plug the FNCC with member's
experiences of how wonderful the place is. Some members have gone as far as to
say it is the tozan for the new age of SGI. However, most members who have
shelled out their $1000 have returned disappointed in that what is billed
as a way to "capture sensei's spirit" is nothing more than just another temple
bashing session that can be purchased for the price of a world tribune
subscription."
This year there was ONE 1-hour session on the temple. Last year there were
none
I guess I've missed any experiences that call it "the tozan for the new age
SG". For one thing, no in in the SGI calls it "the new age" - that's a
Bratcherism. For another thing, it's nothing like tozan. No one has to bow
their head to the tatami when someone enters the room, for one thing.
LK aka CB says: "Every month the FNCC is in operation, it sets back the SGI
another $30,000 in expenses alone. That doesn't include the promotional costs.
On any given day, the FNCC is virtually deserted. The only building that is
manned on
a semi-continuous basis is the 5 story high watchtower, situated in the center
of the complex."
I suppose it IS rather deserted Monday through Wednesday. That's because the
conferences are Thursday through Sunday.
Neither I nor Craig has any idea what the operating expenses are, or if the
FNCC is yet paying for itself. I doubt that it has - it's only been open a
little over two uyears, there are not conferences every weekend, and the
conference fees are not set so that the SGI can make a profit.
In the 8 days I have spent there, there has never been ANYONE in any
watchtower.
LK aka CB says: "In order just to break even, the FNCC must host at least 300
members per month. Last month, the turnout was a mere 60 members- despite the
fact that four weekly priest-bashing "conferences" of an anticipated 80 members
each were scheduled."
Last month 5 people from Omaha attended 3 different conferences. None were on
the temple issue. There were a hell of a lot more than 60 members.
LK aka CB says: "Torrential rains and thunder stormed throughout the
conferences in stark contrast to the unusually dry weather in Southern Florida-
but particularly
during the sessions on "crushing" Nichiren Shoshu. During one such
conference, lightning struck the watchtower, sending the five YMD manning
it to scurry for cover."
This was obviously made up as a copycat response to Kachiyuke's report about
the ongoing meteorlogical misfortunes of Nikken.
"Unusually DRY weather in Southern Florida"????? I've been to Florida 7 times
in my life; it's rained for a while every day except one.
As no one mans whatever he's calling the "watchtower", the story is an obvious
lie.
Note that when an SGI member reports something about "Nichiren" Shoshu, there
is a basis provided. But "Nichiren" Shoshu's copycat charges have to be
completely invented form their imaginations.
LK aka CB says: "SGI members who have visited the FNCC reported on the absence
of the lovely cranes that used to feed in the waters in front of the complex.
It was revealed during the summer conferences that stray cats had taken
residence on the grounds, raiding the nests of the cranes, and causing them to
take leave.
A special crew of YMD were dispatched to eradicate them. Traps were set up
and upon capture, the cats are drowned. However, the cranes have not
returned."
Some wildlife - can't say that it was cranes -- was removed from the developed
area to the "wilds" which are their natural habitat, for both their own safety
and that of the people who would be visiting the FNCC.
THe cat story is absurd, as Craig is well aware, since he made it up.
LK aka CB says: "The abundance of stray cats and half-eaten crane carcasses has
caused hungry alligators to infest the waters near the center. This summer
alone, 7
alligators had to be evicted by special handlers. SGI wanted to exterminate
them, but due to strict laws, they had to shell out yet more money from the
member's contributions to take care of the growing problem. Nobody has been
injured yet, but it's only a matter of time before some unsuspecting person
stumbles over one of the large reptiles during a night-time walk. The SGI
refuses to warn the participants since the news would only cause the
attendence rate to plummet even further."
Hmm. Stray cats in an area infested with hungry alligators. Sure.
I heard there was an alliogator in the pond originally. He was moved into the
Everglades. We are all happy he was.
LK aka CB says: "Because of the low attendence rate, the center cannot keep
fresh food to serve the patrons. All food is either frozen, canned or dried.
Members
who have eaten there have commented that McDonalds serves fresher and more
palatable food."
Here's a tip: when picking something to make up a story about, pick something
a little less outstanding. The alligator stuff was about as far into the open
as you really should venture.
As Mari said - professional chefs -- not cooks, chefs -- from around the
country, comprising all kinds of cuisines and specialties. Whenever someone
returns and gives a report, the first thing they say is ..............SGI
members, what is it?
I'd bet that one meal there would cost you $30-40 in Chicago.
LK aka CB says: "Daisaku Ikeda is pressuring SGI-USA to pump up attendence
anyway they can without sacrificing the anticipated income. Sokagakkai is
trying hard to make it a self-sustaining, profitable operation but so far it's
been a
big bust. SGI-USA cannot even afford the expenses of keeping the Ikeda
center open in Santa Monica. Now that the center is over 10 years old,
several maintenance projects have been scheduled, and special "zaimu"
[money collection] campaigns are in the works to finance them."
Maintainance projects? Omigosh!!! What are you suggesting - that since some
people who originally donated to the WCC (it's more like 20 years old) are now
heretical, that it should be torn down?
The FNCC has been anything but a "big bust".
LK aka CB says: "The 1988 earthquake caused several thousand dollars damage to
the structure. The repair bill was footed by Sokagakkai Japan since the members
have already been milked out of all the money they can give. Between the cost
of lawyers and buildings that SGI is continuously paying for, the Japanese
members
are growing weary of supporting the costly SGI money pits around the world."
Yeah, I noticed that when I was in Japan last November. They really were rude
to us. THe elderly lady who approached me on the street, crying as she shook
my hand and presenting me with pads of paper she had made herself - probably
planned to use karate on me but there were too many witnesses. The meal that 3
women worked all day to prepare for 2 of us in an exhange group that would have
fed 20 - probably good thing we couldn't eat it all, huh? We were just lucky
not to get to the poisoned won ton. The crowds of approximately 100 that
mobbed us each time we entered or left a meeting -- DIFFERENT crowd each time
-- probably had a rope ready for us but had miscalculated the size of our
American necks.
Yep - lots of resentment over there toward us foreigners.
LK aka CB says: "On top of all the problems with dropping membership and
participation in "important" SGI activities, Daisaku Ikeda's health is
deteriorating rapidly. He is not scheduled to come to the USA, although members
are hopeful he will appear at next year's big convention planned at the center.
They are told that
there is a very good chance he will be there, but it is a lie designed to
attract the largest turnout for the convention."
Uh huh. We've all noticed how sickly and withdrawn he's been lately. Like
when I saw him last November with Gorbachev, Bryan Wilson, Daniel Metraux and a
bunch of others. The quick walk, the confident posdture, the waving, the
joking -- probably all done wioth mirrors.
LK aka CB says: "Even top SGI-USA leaders have been told that Mr Ikeda is in
the "best of health." If Mr. Ikeda comes to the USA they will know they were
lied to at the first glance."
But they keep going over THERE, so they've had plenty of glances.
Craig Bratcher is a liar. Anyone who believes a word he says, here or at his
website, is an idiot.
Jim
Visit <bekkoame.or.jp/~bone>
Gregory Gyetko
> Is it just me, or does it seem strange that there are all these people
> calling for supression of gay people and yet none of them are gay?
>
> Mattheq
Kind of like all those people calling for laws prohibiting abortion and none of
them can possibly get pregnant?
Greg.
--
alt.atheism atheist #911, BAAWA Knight
"I'd worship Satan, but I'm going to hell anyway
so why bother?"
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/9916/
DRS
:
:
:The following post is a FORGERY. I never wrote it. Although the post
:did not contain anything offensive, I can't help but think that this
:person could have plenty of ill-intentions in mind.
:Our recent experience with RAW who may have been a forger who used the
:identity of a real person is something to bear in mind.
:
:People on APH and other groups, be aware. And to the slime who is
:doing this, I AM WATCHING.
All the recent forgeries (of yourself, Magenta, Rev Billy and L. Michael
Roberts) are coming from NETROPLEX.COM:
Registrant:
Netroplex Media, Inc (NETROPLEX2-DOM)
3440 Wilshire Blvd.
Suite 610
Los Angeles, CA 90010
USA
Domain Name: NETROPLEX.COM
Administrative Contact, Technical Contact, Zone Contact:
Kim, Laurent (LK318) lsh...@NETROPLEX.COM
213-252-2400
Billing Contact:
Kim, Laurent (LK318) lsh...@NETROPLEX.COM
213-252-2400
Record last updated on 20-May-96.
Record created on 12-Mar-96.
Database last updated on 15-Sep-98 04:01:00 EDT.
You might want to start complaining to their sysadmin.
Mattheq
<ggy...@newbridge.com> wrote:
> Kind of like all those people calling for laws prohibiting abortion and
> none of them can possibly get pregnant?
Yeah, pretty much. What I mean is, most people could just refrain from
doing whatever they're against, instead of making it illeagal. But when
they aren't even applicable for doing it?!?!?!?
V O J
DRS wrote in message <6te1qm$bia$1...@toto.tig.com.au>...
>Richard Stenzel wrote in message ...
>:To blame a man's indiscretions on a religious sect is ludicrous.
>:Does Bill Clinton have a mind of his own, or is he merely a puppet of the
>:Southern Baptist Theology? Is he even Southern Baptist?
>
>
>He is a Southern Baptist.
>
>--
>
>Beware of the Spam-Dog
>
1. They presently attend a Southern Baptist Church.
2. They are Christian as shown by the fruit of the Spirit.
Clinton does not presently qualify on either point.
Clinton has NEVER qualified on both points.
Ward Stewart
wrote:
In other words, the absurd (and failing) boycott of Disney Studios
represents the "fruit of the spirit?"
We must also assume that the defense of slavery and a century of
American Apartheid also represents the "fruit of the spirit."
Certainly they were passionately espoused by these same Southern
Baptists.
No thanks!
ward
>
>
>
~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^
"Love, like a mountain-wind upon an oak,
Falling upon me, shakes me leaf and bough."
Sappho of Lesbos
~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^
Scruffy van Piebles
wrote:
>
>A person is a "Southern Baptist" IF
>1. They presently attend a Southern Baptist Church.
>2. They are Christian as shown by the fruit of the Spirit.
>Clinton does not presently qualify on either point.
>Clinton has NEVER qualified on both points.
>
In Clinton's case it would be Fruit of the Loom.
Scruffy
V O J
Note: A Christian is not defined by going to or belonging to a particular
organization.
Casey wrote in message ...
>
>V O J wrote in message <6trb2p$d7a$1...@nnrp03.primenet.com>...
>>
>>DRS wrote in message <6te1qm$bia$1...@toto.tig.com.au>...
>>>Richard Stenzel wrote in message ...
>>>:To blame a man's indiscretions on a religious sect is ludicrous.
>>>:Does Bill Clinton have a mind of his own, or is he merely a puppet of
the
>>>:Southern Baptist Theology? Is he even Southern Baptist?
>>>
>>>
>>>He is a Southern Baptist.
>>>
>>>--
>>>
>>>Beware of the Spam-Dog
>>>
>>A person is a "Southern Baptist" IF
>>1. They presently attend a Southern Baptist Church.
>>2. They are Christian as shown by the fruit of the Spirit.
>>Clinton does not presently qualify on either point.
>>Clinton has NEVER qualified on both points.
>
>
>VOJ,
>Just a quick question. Are you a Christian?
>Just wondering.
V O J
Scruffy van Piebles wrote in message
<360197b9...@news.supernews.com>...
>>1. They presently attend a Southern Baptist Church.
>>2. They are Christian as shown by the fruit of the Spirit.
>>Clinton does not presently qualify on either point.
>>Clinton has NEVER qualified on both points.
>>
>
>
>Scruffy
>
so I will say "Clever retort"
There are a whole bunch of things we can't say anymore.
Like "let's not have sex" (That's what Clinton didn't have or did have or
did didn't have)
Jim Sarbeck 9/17
<ver...@contractor.net> wrote:
>A person is a "Southern Baptist" IF
He is an active member of church that split off because its leaders did
not want to give up slavery.
Regards,
Jim Sarbeck
(Sig date: 17 Sep 98)
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
Casey
V O J wrote in message <6trb2p$d7a$1...@nnrp03.primenet.com>...
>
>DRS wrote in message <6te1qm$bia$1...@toto.tig.com.au>...
>>Richard Stenzel wrote in message ...
>>:To blame a man's indiscretions on a religious sect is ludicrous.
>>:Does Bill Clinton have a mind of his own, or is he merely a puppet of the
>>:Southern Baptist Theology? Is he even Southern Baptist?
>>
>>
>>He is a Southern Baptist.
>>
>>--
>>
>>Beware of the Spam-Dog
>>
>2. They are Christian as shown by the fruit of the Spirit.
>Clinton does not presently qualify on either point.
>Clinton has NEVER qualified on both points.
Casey
V O J wrote in message <6ts5mu$ibl$1...@nnrp03.primenet.com>...
>>>A person is a "Southern Baptist" IF
>>>1. They presently attend a Southern Baptist Church.
>>>2. They are Christian as shown by the fruit of the Spirit.
>>>Clinton does not presently qualify on either point.
>>>Clinton has NEVER qualified on both points.
>>
>>
>>VOJ,
>>Just a quick question. Are you a Christian?
>>Just wondering.
>>CASEY
>>Yes, I am a Christian
>Note: A Christian is not defined by going to or belonging to a particular
>organization.
Just trying to clear up a little confusion here. Jesus is reported to have
said, "Judge not, lest you be judged." I have been trying to reconcile the
fact that christians claim to believe in and follow the words of the leader
of their cult and yet these good words that even non christians could do
well to pay heed to are ignored.
As an atheist, I too find good advice for living in the bible, mostly common
sense put to a poetic form of prose. I too pick the bits out that I like
and ignore the rest.
It is interesting that the one thing that distinguishes nearly every
christian I have ever met is that they uniformly ignore the above good
advice from their leader.
I'm certain that there are many other examples of this sort of paradox.
Perhaps my atheist colleagues out there would have some more examples this
that we could compile into a list.
Another that I was impressed with not long ago in another thread was that
following the logic that the beauty and splendid nature of the world is
ample evidence that it was created by a god, it is only logical to assume
that this splendid and beautiful god must have been created by some higher
being, ad infinitum. Hmmmm.
Therion Ware
saying in <6trb2p$d7a$1...@nnrp03.primenet.com>
>
>DRS wrote in message <6te1qm$bia$1...@toto.tig.com.au>...
>>Richard Stenzel wrote in message ...
>>:To blame a man's indiscretions on a religious sect is ludicrous.
>>:Does Bill Clinton have a mind of his own, or is he merely a puppet of the
>>:Southern Baptist Theology? Is he even Southern Baptist?
>>
>>
>>He is a Southern Baptist.
>>
>>--
>>
>>Beware of the Spam-Dog
>>
>A person is a "Southern Baptist" IF
>1. They presently attend a Southern Baptist Church.
>2. They are Christian as shown by the fruit of the Spirit.
>Clinton does not presently qualify on either point.
>Clinton has NEVER qualified on both points.
Don't you just love it when they start confusing themselves with their
God....
--
"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."
- attrib: Pauline Reage
website:
<http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Delphi/6671/index.html>
remove ".eac" if you want to use e-mail
pa...@nospam.hsh.com
: V O J wrote in message <6ts5mu$ibl$1...@nnrp03.primenet.com>...
:>> Just a quick question. Are you a Christian?
:>> Just wondering.
:>> Yes, I am a Christian
: >Note: A Christian is not defined by going to or belonging to a particular
: >organization.
: Just trying to clear up a little confusion here. Jesus is
: reported to have said, "Judge not, lest you be judged." I have
: been trying to reconcile the fact that christians claim to
: believe in and follow the words of the leader of their cult and
: yet these good words that even non christians could do well to
: pay heed to are ignored.
I'm curious about something, Casey; I'm not certain I understand
the cult of atheism, so I'm looking for input.
Given your above statement, do you believe that only
non-Christians should be allowed to judge others? More precisely,
would you permit Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, and other
non-Christians to judge others -- or only atheists?
: As an atheist, I too find good advice for living in the bible,
: mostly common sense put to a poetic form of prose. I too pick
: the bits out that I like and ignore the rest.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but as an atheist, am I correct that you
don't acknowledge any moral authority other than your own? If so,
that would neatly dispose of any possible conflict with the
ideology of the "leader" of one's "cult." ;}
: It is interesting that the one thing that distinguishes nearly
: every christian I have ever met is that they uniformly ignore the
: above good advice from their leader.
You mean to say -- gasp -- that people aren't completely faithful
to their beliefs all the time? Well, call Ripley!
: I'm certain that there are many other examples of this sort of
: paradox. Perhaps my atheist colleagues out there would have some
: more examples this that we could compile into a list.
To what purpose, exactly? Not only is it a given that no one is
perfect, but -- as you surely must know -- the imperfection of man
is a basic tenet of Christianity.
Something else I confess I don't understand: is there a reason
why you choose to not capitalize "Christian"? I don't know enough
yet to determine if it's simply a sign of disrespect, or if you
adhere to the style of e.e. cummings.
: Another that I was impressed with not long ago in another
: thread was that following the logic that the beauty and splendid
: nature of the world is ample evidence that it was created by a
: god, it is only logical to assume that this splendid and
: beautiful god must have been created by some higher being, ad
: infinitum. Hmmmm.
How, exactly, is this logic arrived at? I confess I'm not
philosophically minded, so perhaps you can say some more about
this -- after you've finished your mantra.
V O J
Casey wrote in message ...
>
>>>>1. They presently attend a Southern Baptist Church.
>>>>2. They are Christian as shown by the fruit of the Spirit.
>>>>Clinton does not presently qualify on either point.
>>>>Clinton has NEVER qualified on both points.
>>>
>>>
>>>Just a quick question. Are you a Christian?
>>>Just wondering.
>
>
>
>>>Yes, I am a Christian
>>Note: A Christian is not defined by going to or belonging to a particular
>>organization.
>
>Just trying to clear up a little confusion here. Jesus is reported to have
>said, "Judge not, lest you be judged." I have been trying to reconcile the
>fact that christians claim to believe in and follow the words of the leader
>of their cult and yet these good words that even non christians could do
>well to pay heed to are ignored.
As an atheist you have no clue on what Jesus was referring to and on top of
that have no clue about judging. As Christians we are told to
Test the spirits
Discern
Avoid errant teaching
Not associate with those that do XXXXX
Exhort those (Christians ) in error
Deny false Christians (brothers)
We are very specifically told (in the Bible) how to recognize a fake
Christian and recognize those who will by no means see heaven.
It is still all up God, not us as to the final destination and life of
individuals.
V O J
made that way by God.
No Christian definition says that Christians are to be blind to truth.
Therion Ware (Therion T. Ware) wrote in message
<36240fd4...@news.supernews.com>...
>On Thu, 17 Sep 1998 08:49:19 -0700, "V O J" spake unto the multitude,
>saying in <6trb2p$d7a$1...@nnrp03.primenet.com>
>
>>
>>DRS wrote in message <6te1qm$bia$1...@toto.tig.com.au>...
>>>Richard Stenzel wrote in message ...
>>>:To blame a man's indiscretions on a religious sect is ludicrous.
>>>:Does Bill Clinton have a mind of his own, or is he merely a puppet of
the
>>>:Southern Baptist Theology? Is he even Southern Baptist?
>>>
>>>
>>>He is a Southern Baptist.
>>>
>>>--
>>>
>>>Beware of the Spam-Dog
>>>
>>A person is a "Southern Baptist" IF
>>1. They presently attend a Southern Baptist Church.
>>2. They are Christian as shown by the fruit of the Spirit.
>>Clinton does not presently qualify on either point.
>>Clinton has NEVER qualified on both points.
>
Sister Of Light And Darkness
scruff...@geocities.com (Scruffy van Piebles) wrote:
>On Thu, 17 Sep 1998 08:49:19 -0700, "V O J" <ver...@contractor.net>
>wrote:
>
>>
>>A person is a "Southern Baptist" IF
>>1. They presently attend a Southern Baptist Church.
>>2. They are Christian as shown by the fruit of the Spirit.
>>Clinton does not presently qualify on either point.
>>Clinton has NEVER qualified on both points.
>>
>
The above would disqualify most SB's.
And that's my opinion!
MANY OF YOU don't practice yours exactly as a loving religion!
See the truth revealed in all it's glory:
http://www.christiangallery.com/strategy.html
http://www.godhatesfags.com/faq.html
http://revwhite.bestsites.net
http://www.religioustolerance.org/cr_ident.htm
If you are abusing your religion to rationalize the oppression of people
like gays, it is YOU who is the unrepentant sinner!
Homosexuality isn't a sin, abusing your religion to rationalize oppresssion IS!
Hate doesn't happen to be one of MY family's values! How about yours?
If you're in favor of "family values", then legalize same sex marriage NOW!
V O J
Sister Of Light And Darkness wrote in message
<6tufcu$6...@chronicle.concentric.net>...
>In article <360197b9...@news.supernews.com>,
> scruff...@geocities.com (Scruffy van Piebles) wrote:
>>On Thu, 17 Sep 1998 08:49:19 -0700, "V O J" <ver...@contractor.net>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>A person is a "Southern Baptist" IF
>>>1. They presently attend a Southern Baptist Church.
>>>2. They are Christian as shown by the fruit of the Spirit.
>>>Clinton does not presently qualify on either point.
>>>Clinton has NEVER qualified on both points.
>>>
>>
>>In Clinton's case it would be Fruit of the Loom.
>
>The above would disqualify most SB's.
I don't know about most but many is a fair statement
>
>And that's my opinion!
>
>MANY OF YOU don't practice yours exactly as a loving religion!
You don't know anything about SBC.
>If you are abusing your religion to rationalize the oppression of people
>like gays, it is YOU who is the unrepentant sinner!
The only unforgiven sin is denied sin
>Homosexuality isn't a sin, abusing your religion to rationalize oppresssion
IS!
The only unforgiven sin is denied sin
>Hate doesn't happen to be one of MY family's values! How about yours?
The only unforgiven sin is denied sin
>If you're in favor of "family values", then legalize same sex marriage NOW!
The only unforgiven sin is denied sin.
The Auctioneer
that almighty soapbox pulpit he's on. Tsk, tsk, tsk.....
V O J wrote in message <6tuklb$65p$1...@nnrp02.primenet.com>...
Steve Mading
: In alt.fan.dan-quayle Casey <K...@Jones.com> sez:
: : V O J wrote in message <6ts5mu$ibl$1...@nnrp03.primenet.com>...
: :>> Just a quick question. Are you a Christian?
: :>> Just wondering.
: :>> Yes, I am a Christian
: : >Note: A Christian is not defined by going to or belonging to a particular
: : >organization.
: : Just trying to clear up a little confusion here. Jesus is
: : reported to have said, "Judge not, lest you be judged." I have
: : been trying to reconcile the fact that christians claim to
: : believe in and follow the words of the leader of their cult and
: : yet these good words that even non christians could do well to
: : pay heed to are ignored.
: I'm curious about something, Casey; I'm not certain I understand
: the cult of atheism, so I'm looking for input.
Lession #1 is that it isn't a cult, but rather a rejection of
cultist thinking.
--
Steve Mading: mad...@execpc.com http://www.execpc.com/~madings
Steve Mading
: As an atheist you have no clue on what Jesus was referring to and on top of
: that have no clue about judging. As Christians we are told to
: Test the spirits
: Discern
: Avoid errant teaching
: Not associate with those that do XXXXX
: Exhort those (Christians ) in error
: Deny false Christians (brothers)
: We are very specifically told (in the Bible) how to recognize a fake
: Christian and recognize those who will by no means see heaven.
: It is still all up God, not us as to the final destination and life of
: individuals.
And so how do you reconcile the above with the contrary
statement that you should judge others lest ye be judged
yourself? Or is this just another one of Christianity's
many contradictions to add to the list?
Chani
Stephen D. Knight wrote in message <360419b8...@news.pacbell.net>...
>On 19 Sep 1998 03:34:29 GMT, "bud" <b...@msn.com> wrote:
>
> Hello. My name is Steve. I'll be your flamer tonight.
>
>>Jesus is the word of God.
>
> Jeesus sucks gods cock.
>
>> John 1:1-2 "In the beginning was the word, and
>>the word was with God,
>
> And god said, "Suck harder my son and deeper. I want to bounce my
>balls off your chin."
>
>> and the Word was God. He was with God in the
>>beginning."
>
> And he is with god now. Hot and sweaty, slobbering over the holy
>baloney.
>
>>John 1:14 "The word became flesh and made his dwelling among
>>us.
>
> Yea, and god shot his load and choked his son, Jeesus.
>
>> We have sen his glory, the glory of the one and only, who came from the
>>Father, full of grace and truth."
>
> And Jeesus would not spit and gulped down the holy juices.
Well of course he did. Tis a sin to spit, and is righteous and holy to
swallow.
>
>Steve Knight #855
>Knight Of BAAWA!!!!
Chani, Atheist #1118; Slave Girl # 1: Nirfur High Priest #2:
ULC Minister #19 The Holy See - Church of Fantome Scientists
cov...@concentric.net ICQ #12345332
The atheist map is located at
http://www.angelfire.com/nv/Loreleis/index.html
Sign my guest book at:
http://homepages.infoseek.com/~chanileslie/chanileslie.html
**********************************************************
"Look, biology is such an inexact science, and for
every step forward we must take 2 in reverse, and
at any rate we said we're sorry, so can we get our
funding back so we can pay our bail and go
home?" - Two Gnomish Scientists after accidentally
unleashing the phase-shifting doppleganging
firebreathing hyperintellegent Giant space hampster.
**********************************************************
>
>
>
bud
the word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the
beginning." John 1:14 "The word became flesh and made his dwelling among
us. We have sen his glory, the glory of the one and only, who came from the
Father, full of grace and truth."
Jeff Wilson <Xjmw...@hooked.netX> wrote in article
<6tl24q$5vu$p...@207.212.27.40>...
>
> Is Jesus Christ actually God?
> John 17:3, RS: "[Jesus prayed to his Father:] This is eternal life, that
> they know thee the only true God ["who alone art truly God," NE], and
Jesus
> Christ whom thou hast sent." (Notice that Jesus referred not to himself
but
> to his Father in heaven as "the only true God.")
> John 20:17, RS: "Jesus said to her [Mary Magdalene], 'Do not hold me, for
I
> have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to my brethren and say to
them,
> I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'"
(So
> to the resurrected Jesus, the Father was God, just as the Father was God
to
> Mary Magdalene. Interestingly, not once in Scripture do we find the
Father
> addressing the Son as "my God.")
>
> Well I certainly cannot find where Jesus said he was God.
> Peace
> Jerry Martin
>
>
>
Casey
pa...@nospam.hsh.com wrote in message ...
>In alt.fan.dan-quayle Casey <K...@Jones.com> sez:
>: V O J wrote in message <6ts5mu$ibl$1...@nnrp03.primenet.com>...
>
>:>> Just a quick question. Are you a Christian?
>:>> Just wondering.
>
>:>> Yes, I am a Christian
>: >Note: A Christian is not defined by going to or belonging to a
particular
>: >organization.
>
>: Just trying to clear up a little confusion here. Jesus is
>: reported to have said, "Judge not, lest you be judged." I have
>: been trying to reconcile the fact that christians claim to
>: believe in and follow the words of the leader of their cult and
>: yet these good words that even non christians could do well to
>: pay heed to are ignored.
>
>I'm curious about something, Casey; I'm not certain I understand
>the cult of atheism, so I'm looking for input.
>
I'll try to answer your questions in a serious manner (I am posting from
alt.atheism.satire and usually am only here for a bit of good natured fun
and harassment:-) )
Firstly, as you no doubt know, the only thing atheists have in common is
that they have looked at the evidence or lack thereof and have concluded
that there is no compelling reason to believe in a god. I assume that you
were having a dig when you refered to us as a "cult." I don't think that
there are enough ties that bind to refer to atheism as a cult.
>Given your above statement, do you believe that only
>non-Christians should be allowed to judge others? More precisely,
>would you permit Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, and other
>non-Christians to judge others -- or only atheists?
I have little knowledge of the spiritual guidance that instruct Muslims,
Buddhists and other non-christian sects. Christians, however are told not
to judge by their own highest authority, Jesus. As an atheist, I have no
instructions to this effect, however I do believe that the character called
Jesus in the christian documents is alleged to have said many things that
are good policy for harmonious living in one's community and I try to follow
this advice when I can. I still believe that one of the hallmarks of
christian hypocracy is that so many (most in my experience) are much more
guilty of passing judgement on people than my atheist friends. Yes I am
passing judgement here but I am not under the belief that I am breaking any
celestial comandments by doing so. Just being impolite.
>: As an atheist, I too find good advice for living in the bible,
>: mostly common sense put to a poetic form of prose. I too pick
>: the bits out that I like and ignore the rest.
>
>Correct me if I'm wrong, but as an atheist, am I correct that you
>don't acknowledge any moral authority other than your own? If so,
>that would neatly dispose of any possible conflict with the
>ideology of the "leader" of one's "cult." ;}
I don't understand the question. We don't have a leader. (I'm giving you
the "cult" bit for now.) Christians, however, do and he has given
instructions that are being ignored by his followers.
>: It is interesting that the one thing that distinguishes nearly
>: every christian I have ever met is that they uniformly ignore the
>: above good advice from their leader.
>
>You mean to say -- gasp -- that people aren't completely faithful
>to their beliefs all the time? Well, call Ripley!
I pointed out this particular element (judgement of others) because it is a
glaring inconsistency that pervades christianity. I am not looking for
complete faithfulness, Just don't even see lip service being paid to this
one.
>: I'm certain that there are many other examples of this sort of
>: paradox. Perhaps my atheist colleagues out there would have some
>: more examples this that we could compile into a list.
>
>To what purpose, exactly? Not only is it a given that no one is
>perfect, but -- as you surely must know -- the imperfection of man
>is a basic tenet of Christianity.
To the purpose that we are in alt.atheism.satire. Sounds like a bit of fun.
>Something else I confess I don't understand: is there a reason
>why you choose to not capitalize "Christian"? I don't know enough
>yet to determine if it's simply a sign of disrespect, or if you
>adhere to the style of e.e. cummings.
Looking back through your post I see that you haven't capitolized "Atheist."
Don't worry, it doesn't bother me at all.
>
>: Another that I was impressed with not long ago in another
>: thread was that following the logic that the beauty and splendid
>: nature of the world is ample evidence that it was created by a
>: god, it is only logical to assume that this splendid and
>: beautiful god must have been created by some higher being, ad
>: infinitum. Hmmmm.
>
>How, exactly, is this logic arrived at? I confess I'm not
>philosophically minded, so perhaps you can say some more about
>this -- after you've finished your mantra.
I thought it was obvious. I'm using the same logic that you christians use.
The world is beautiful and splendid. Therefore it must have been made by
god. This is just about the most profound explaination I have ever heard
for your belief. If this logic is of any value at all it can be applied to
your god.
Your god is beautiful, splendid, loving . . .(add any other's you want).
Therefore, he must have been made by a superior being. And on and on and
on.
We were being civil there for awhile and then you had to go and spoil it
with that mantra remark. Ok, here goes with my mantra:
christians bite
christians bite
christians bite
christians bite
christians bite
christians bite
christians bite
christians bite
christians bite
christians bite
christians bite
christians bite
christians bite
christians bite
christians bite
christians bite
CASEY
Just add water, Makes it's own sauce!
It's a way of life.
>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Casey
V O J wrote in message <6tu1is$114$1...@nnrp03.primenet.com>...
>As an atheist you have no clue on what Jesus was referring to and on top of
>that have no clue about judging. As Christians we are told to
>Test the spirits
>Discern
>Avoid errant teaching
>Not associate with those that do XXXXX
>Exhort those (Christians ) in error
>Deny false Christians (brothers)
>We are very specifically told (in the Bible) how to recognize a fake
>Christian and recognize those who will by no means see heaven.
>It is still all up God, not us as to the final destination and life of
>individuals.
No shit, Sherlock. If you will re read my original post, I was openly
admitting my ignorance. You have responded by admitting yours. Thank you.
Stephen D. Knight
Hello. My name is Steve. I'll be your flamer tonight.
>Jesus is the word of God.
Jeesus sucks gods cock.
> John 1:1-2 "In the beginning was the word, and
>the word was with God,
And god said, "Suck harder my son and deeper. I want to bounce my
balls off your chin."
> and the Word was God. He was with God in the
>beginning."
And he is with god now. Hot and sweaty, slobbering over the holy
baloney.
>John 1:14 "The word became flesh and made his dwelling among
>us.
Yea, and god shot his load and choked his son, Jeesus.
> We have sen his glory, the glory of the one and only, who came from the
>Father, full of grace and truth."
And Jeesus would not spit and gulped down the holy juices.
Steve Knight #855
Knight Of BAAWA!!!!
Dick C.
>
>Casey wrote in message ...
>>
>>Just trying to clear up a little confusion here. Jesus is reported to have
>>said, "Judge not, lest you be judged." I have been trying to reconcile the
>>fact that christians claim to believe in and follow the words of the leader
>>of their cult and yet these good words that even non christians could do
>>well to pay heed to are ignored.
>>As an atheist
>
>As an atheist you have no clue on what Jesus was referring to and on top of
>that have no clue about judging.
Well, as a christian, you seem to be a remarkable failure. You have made at
least 2 judgements in this thread and were remarkably wrong in both. The first
was to say Clinton isn't a christian. The second is to say that atheists don't
know about your religion. Many atheists used to christians before we decided to
be honest and look at the evidence.
As Christians we are told to
>Test the spirits
What spirits.
>Discern
Discern what?
>Avoid errant teaching
You blew this big time.
>Not associate with those that do XXXXX
>Exhort those (Christians ) in error
>Deny false Christians (brothers)
>We are very specifically told (in the Bible) how to recognize a fake
>Christian and recognize those who will by no means see heaven.
>It is still all up God, not us as to the final destination and life of
>individuals.
First of all, christ said that he was for the sinners. Not for the perfect.
Christ himself went to the sinners. His followers were sinners. And
he said judge not, lest ye might be judged.
Your view of christianity is decidely unchristian. Therefor you cannot call
yourself a christian in good conscience.
Dick
Number 1 poster for month of Aug. Meaning too much free time I guess.
email: dic...@drizzle.com
Homepage http://www.drizzle.com/~dickcr
Michel Catudal
>
> A person is a "Southern Baptist" IF
> 1. They presently attend a Southern Baptist Church.
> 2. They are Christian as shown by the fruit of the Spirit.
> Clinton does not presently qualify on either point.
> Clinton has NEVER qualified on both points.
You're full of shit. He is a southern baptist.
One doesn't have to be a fundy to be a southern baptist.
Both my mother in law and her sister are southern baptists
and they are far from being fundies.
The sister of my mom in law used to make some easy cash
every time she was getting healed by the preacher. She'd
come on a wheelchair and sometime during the freak show
she'd get up and scream "I'm healed, praise the lord!" and
some other shit. Then the flock was giving money like creasy
to the preacher. He'd give her $50 each time. He'd furnish
the wheelchair and disguises.
--
Tired of Windows' rebootive multitasking?
then try Linux's preemptive multitasking
http://www.netonecom.net/~bbcat/
We have software, food, music, news, search,
history, electronics and genealogy pages.
Casey
this dogmatic spew to me. "I ain't no steeenking christian!."
CASEY
Just add water, Makes it's own sauce!
It's a way of life.
Dick C. wrote in message <6u0k9h$1no...@news.drizzle.com>...
Casey
Abner Mintz
>: Just trying to clear up a little confusion here. Jesus is
>: reported to have said, "Judge not, lest you be judged." I have
>: been trying to reconcile the fact that christians claim to
>: believe in and follow the words of the leader of their cult and
>: yet these good words that even non christians could do well to
>: pay heed to are ignored.
<pa...@nospam.hsh.com> wrote:
>I'm curious about something, Casey;
"I hope you don't mind if I drop in my two cents worth."
> I'm not certain I understand the cult of atheism, so I'm looking for
> input.
"Well, first off, atheism isn't a cult. If anything, it's kind of
the inverse of a cult. You see, in a cult, people are encouraged
to share a belief or beliefs with utter devotion - to immerse
themselves in a belief, so to speak, until it becomes the most
important thing in your life. Atheism, on the other hand, is
a lack of belief in any gods - all atheists share is a *lack*
of belief - and even in the details of that lack of belief, we
vary widely. There are 'strong atheists' (who believe that no
gods exist), there are 'weak atheists' (who don't believe in any
gods or in the nonexistance of gods), there are atheists who
think the god-concept is too senseless to have any beliefs about,
there are atheists who just don't care about gods ... Outside of
the shared trait of atheists, atheists can be conservative, liberal,
moderate, libertine, hedonistic, puritan, severe, mystical, rational,
loving, hateful, apathetic, devoted, fanatical, caring ... you name
it."
"Doesn't sound much like a cult, does it? In a cult, all the members
get shoved into a common set of beliefs, and atheism just isn't like
that."
> Given your above statement, do you believe that only
> non-Christians should be allowed to judge others? More precisely,
> would you permit Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, and other
> non-Christians to judge others -- or only atheists?
"Actually, I think he was pointing out that the Christian religion
had a commandment against judging others, so Christians shouldn't
try to decide if others were good Christians or not - if they do,
they're not being a good Christian." :) "See? It's not that he
was saying that only non-Christians should be allowed to judge
others; he was merely trying to point out that, as he interpreted
it, Christians who judge others are hypocrits by the standards of
their religion."
>: As an atheist, I too find good advice for living in the bible,
>: mostly common sense put to a poetic form of prose. I too pick
>: the bits out that I like and ignore the rest.
> Correct me if I'm wrong, but as an atheist, am I correct that you
> don't acknowledge any moral authority other than your own?
"Not necessarily - all atheism requires is a lack of belief in gods.
How and why you get your moral system (other than not believing it
came from a god) is entirely up to the atheist. (If he does believe
it came from a god, he's not an atheist.) If you choose to get your
morals from other people, that doesn't make you any less atheistic."
> If so, that would neatly dispose of any possible conflict with the
> ideology of the "leader" of one's "cult." ;}
"True, it would." :) "It's not accurate, though."
"If you're truly curious about the nature of atheism and atheists,
feel free to ask any questions. You might want to snip the newsgroups
down to just talk.atheism first, though - no sense boring hordes of
uninterested people."
V O J
Steve Mading wrote in message <6tv24n$4...@newsops.execpc.com>...>: As an atheist you have no clue on what Jesus was referring to and on top
of
>: that have no clue about judging. As Christians we are told to
>: Test the spirits
>: Discern
>: Avoid errant teaching
>: Not associate with those that do XXXXX
>: Exhort those (Christians ) in error
>: Deny false Christians (brothers)
>: We are very specifically told (in the Bible) how to recognize a fake
>: Christian and recognize those who will by no means see heaven.
>: It is still all up God, not us as to the final destination and life of
>: individuals.
>
>statement that you should judge others lest ye be judged
>yourself? Or is this just another one of Christianity's
>many contradictions to add to the list?
>--
>Steve Mading: mad...@execpc.com http://www.execpc.com/~madings
>
I have no problem with being judged "as I judge others".
I know who I am and what I am. I am open to criticism. I am open to
correction. If you wish to quote Christian beliefs, be sure you know what
you are taking about. The day that you understand Christian teachings is
the day that you will believe.
V O J
Dick C. wrote in message <6u0k9h$1no...@news.drizzle.com>...
>In article <6tu1is$114$1...@nnrp03.primenet.com>, "V O J"
<ver...@contractor.net> wrote:
>>
>>Casey wrote in message ...
>>>
>
have
>>>said, "Judge not, lest you be judged." I have been trying to reconcile
the
>>>fact that christians claim to believe in and follow the words of the
leader
>>>of their cult and yet these good words that even non christians could do
>>>well to pay heed to are ignored.
>>
>>As an atheist you have no clue on what Jesus was referring to and on top
of
>>that have no clue about judging.
>
>least 2 judgements in this thread and were remarkably wrong in both. The
first
>was to say Clinton isn't a christian. The second is to say that atheists
don't
>know about your religion. Many atheists used to christians before we
decided to
>be honest and look at the evidence.
When you understand the teachings about judging you will understand and
believe.
>
> As Christians we are told to
>>Test the spirits
>
>What spirits.
>
>>Discern
>
>Discern what?
>
>>Avoid errant teaching
>
>You blew this big time.
>
>>Not associate with those that do XXXXX
>>Exhort those (Christians ) in error
>>Deny false Christians (brothers)
>>We are very specifically told (in the Bible) how to recognize a fake
>>Christian and recognize those who will by no means see heaven.
>>It is still all up God, not us as to the final destination and life of
>>individuals.
>
V O J
Michel Catudal wrote in message <36046B64...@netonecom.net>...
>V O J wrote:
>>
>> A person is a "Southern Baptist" IF
>> 1. They presently attend a Southern Baptist Church.
>> 2. They are Christian as shown by the fruit of the Spirit.
>> Clinton does not presently qualify on either point.
>> Clinton has NEVER qualified on both points.
>
>You're full of shit. He is a southern baptist.
>One doesn't have to be a fundy to be a southern baptist.
>Both my mother in law and her sister are southern baptists
>and they are far from being fundies.
>
>The sister of my mom in law used to make some easy cash
>every time she was getting healed by the preacher. She'd
>come on a wheelchair and sometime during the freak show
>she'd get up and scream "I'm healed, praise the lord!" and
>some other shit. Then the flock was giving money like creasy
>to the preacher. He'd give her $50 each time. He'd furnish
>the wheelchair and disguises.
If you say so. Strange that you still have no clue about true and fake.
Steve Mading
: V O J (ver...@contractor.net) wrote:
: : As an atheist you have no clue on what Jesus was referring to and on top of
: : that have no clue about judging. As Christians we are told to
: : Test the spirits
: : Discern
: : Avoid errant teaching
: : Not associate with those that do XXXXX
: : Exhort those (Christians ) in error
: : Deny false Christians (brothers)
: : We are very specifically told (in the Bible) how to recognize a fake
: : Christian and recognize those who will by no means see heaven.
: : It is still all up God, not us as to the final destination and life of
: : individuals.
: And so how do you reconcile the above with the contrary
: statement that you should judge others lest ye be judged
: yourself? Or is this just another one of Christianity's
: many contradictions to add to the list?
Ah shucks - I mean't to type "should not judge", not "should judge".
I should proofread myself more carefully before sending.
: --
V O J
Casey wrote in message ...
>
>V O J wrote in message <6u5t5h$mht$1...@nnrp03.primenet.com>...
>
>
>
>>I have no problem with being judged "as I judge others".
>>I know who I am and what I am. I am open to criticism. I am open to
>>correction. If you wish to quote Christian beliefs, be sure you know what
>>you are taking about. The day that you understand Christian teachings is
>>the day that you will believe.
>
>
>because unless we "believe", Whatever that means, the bible might as well
be
>written in hieroglyphics.
>This is the most chicken shit cop out I have heard in a long while.
V O J
AND MAY (NOTE MAY) NEVER.
Casey wrote in message ...
>
>V O J wrote in message <6u5t8f$miq$1...@nnrp03.primenet.com>...
>
>>When you understand the teachings about judging you will understand and
>>believe.
>
>I'll try to translate this.
>
>GOO GOO GAA GAA mmmmffffff I want my mama!
>
>CASEY
>
>Just add water, Makes it's own sauce!
>It's a way of life
>
>Until you make some kind of adult attempt to respond to my post, which was
a
>serious attempt to discuss your objections to my observation about
christian
>judgement, this is the treatment you will be getting. It appears that you
>have decided to pick on easier targets, in which case you are mistaken
>anyway. There are no easy targets here, they are all moving, and the only
>conversions I have seen are those from christianity to atheism.
>
>
>
>
>
Casey
Casey
V O J wrote in message <6u5t5h$mht$1...@nnrp03.primenet.com>...
>I have no problem with being judged "as I judge others".
>I know who I am and what I am. I am open to criticism. I am open to
>correction. If you wish to quote Christian beliefs, be sure you know what
>you are taking about. The day that you understand Christian teachings is
>the day that you will believe.
In other words, Us heathens shouldn't even bother to pick up the bible
because unless we "believe", Whatever that means, the bible might as well be
written in hieroglyphics.
This is the most chicken shit cop out I have heard in a long while.
CASEY
Just add water, Makes it's own sauce!
It's a way of life.
Scruffy van Piebles
wrote:
>
>Ah shucks - I mean't to type "should not judge", not "should judge".
>
>I should proofread myself more carefully before sending.
>
Don't judge yourself so harshly.
Scruffy
Casey
V O J wrote in message <6u6pfo$sas$1...@nnrp03.primenet.com>...
>Argue with God. By the way I'm not God.
Can't argue with something that doesn't exist.
You seem unable to defend your views in a rational manner.
Plonk
Casey
V O J wrote in message <6u6piv$sbb$1...@nnrp03.primenet.com>...
>It has been responded to by many including myself. You DO NOT UNDERSTAND
>AND MAY (NOTE MAY) NEVER.
You have not responded to my post, you simply made the statement that I
don't understand. Well, that certainly made front page news. You also
responded by misquoting your bible. Do you have any idea what's in there,
who wrote it, when it was written and what motivated the authors? I doubt
it.
V O J (Vomits Out Judgement)
midt...@slip.net
That isn't what he is saying. However, he also thinks so
much of himself that he thinks it is O.K. to sit in judgement
of others. He hasn't bothered to consider that this might be
rude, and that perhaps he hasn't earned that right. I'm
positive that he hasn't considered that people would take
offense of that attitude alone without even bothering to
try and judge HIS life.
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
midt...@slip.net
"V O J" <ver...@contractor.net> wrote:
> Dick C. wrote in message <6u0k9h$1no...@news.drizzle.com>...
> >least 2 judgements in this thread and were remarkably wrong in both. The
> >first was to say Clinton isn't a christian. The second is to say that
> >atheists don't
> >know about your religion. Many atheists used to christians before we
> > decided to be honest and look at the evidence.
>
> believe.
Who do you think you are talking like you're Buddha?
Are you going to teach us all virtual kung fu too? Get
a grip on reality.
Richard Stenzel
things. He created you.
God does not need weak humanity to defend him. He gave you a choice --
believe in Him , or don't. If you don't want to believe in Him, it's your
loss, not ours. But our views are His views, and He will defend them
Himself.
Of course, if you don't believe He exists, then I guess it is easier for you
to justify your unbelief, isn't it.
Richard Stenzel
Casey wrote in message ...
>
>V O J wrote in message <6u6pfo$sas$1...@nnrp03.primenet.com>...
>>Argue with God. By the way I'm not God.
>
>
>Can't argue with something that doesn't exist.
>
>You seem unable to defend your views in a rational manner.
>
>Plonk
>
midt...@slip.net
"Casey" <K...@Jones.com> wrote:
> V O J wrote in message <6u6pfo$sas$1...@nnrp03.primenet.com>...
> >Argue with God. By the way I'm not God.
>
> Can't argue with something that doesn't exist.
Well, I AM God. A Demi-God anyway. And I think you
are both a couple of dorks.
V O J
1. There are many (millions) very very intelligent people who believe and
understand the bible as well as believe in the God of the bible. There are
also many equally intelligent people who are confused by the Bible, don't
understand it and do not believe in God. Intelligence is obviously not the
key to understanding the Bible.
2. That same Bible says that some have their spiritual eyes and ears opened
and some don't.
3. That is the only existing LOGICAL explanation.
Don't think yourself so intellectually endowed as to think that any one who
knows something that you don't is inferior. I for one, as a tested
intellect and well trained, know that I have no clue why some understand and
some do not other than what the Bible claims.
Casey wrote in message ...
>
>V O J wrote in message <6u6pfo$sas$1...@nnrp03.primenet.com>...
>>Argue with God. By the way I'm not God.
>
>
>Can't argue with something that doesn't exist.
>
Ken Childress
Andrew Hall <ahall-...@world.std.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Richard Stenzel writes:
>
> Richard> If God does not exist, then you don't exist. God is the creator of all
> Richard> things. He created you.
>
>Who created your God?
Why does God need a creator?
--
kenc at cerf dot removethis dot net (Remove "removethis" to email)
"You can accomplish things you've never dreamed possible. But, you must
first change your beliefs for them to become a reality."
Peter Walker
: In article <sod67eg...@world.std.com>,
: Andrew Hall <ahall-...@world.std.com> wrote:
: >>>>>> Richard Stenzel writes:
: >
: > Richard> If God does not exist, then you don't exist. God is the creator of all
: > Richard> things. He created you.
: >
: >Who created your God?
: Why does God need a creator?
Same reason we do.
If we can not exist without being created, then neither can your god.
If your god can exist without being created, then so can the universe, and
hence your god is epistimologically unnecessary.
You can't go around special pleading that the universe needs a creator without
begging the same question about the creator invented to satisfy that need.
(It's turtles all the way down!)
______________________________________________________________________________
|
Peter Wykoff Walker II Alt.Atheist #3 | "He who wishes to succeed
Dept. of Space Physics, Rice University | in life must learn not to
| heed the Bird of Prophecy."
Comments, questions, and discussions |
welcome. | -Esigie, Oba of the African
Preaching, conversion attempts, and flames | Kingdom of Benin, c.1505-c.1550
will be deleted unread. +---------------------------------
e-mail: p...@spacsun.rice.edu Voice Mail: (281) 933-2446
V O J
time. Before time was something other than time base or sequence based
logic. If God existed before man or the earth or time, then God does not
need a predecessor.
Peter Walker wrote in message <6u8mvs$dv2$1...@joe.rice.edu>...
The Ghost In The Machine
On Tue, 22 Sep 1998 08:56:35 -0700, V O J <ver...@contractor.net> wrote:
>Another one who thinks he could possibly match me with any rationality.
>
>1. There are many (millions) very very intelligent people who believe and
>understand the bible as well as believe in the God of the bible. There are
>also many equally intelligent people who are confused by the Bible, don't
>understand it and do not believe in God. Intelligence is obviously not the
>key to understanding the Bible.
(Ad numerum.)
What is, then?
Enlightenment by the Almighty? "Fear not, mere heathen, for 'tis I, the
Almighty God, who shall make the decision as to whether you believe
in Me or not, and if I deem thee unworthy, no amount of trying shall
make you believe in Me; if I, however, deem thee worthy, then no amount
of trying shall divest thee from thine belief." [*]
Uh huh. Nice deity you've got there.
Or do you prefer the notion that anyone can get into Heaven, if they
just believe in Jesus Christ, the Lord and Savior, who will expatiate
all of your sins if only you believe in His existence and believe He
shall save you from The Fate Worse Than Death(tm)? :-)
*Strange* deity you've got there; presumably he could just save everyone!
(Or does he have only 144,000 or so seats available and has to apply
some sort of DeityTest(tm)?)
>2. That same Bible says that some have their spiritual eyes and ears opened
>and some don't.
Hypnosis, if I'm not mistaken, only works on about a quarter of the
populace. As an analogy, it has its limitations, but obviously some
people will believe, and some won't.
>3. That is the only existing LOGICAL explanation.
The Bible is the only existing logical explanation?
Of what?
Please see http://www.talkorigins.org for some interesting counterpoints;
in particular, rock strata show that the Earth is billions of years old,
and various markings in coal seams that look remarkably like fossilized
tree roots are also of great interest.
It is also interesting to note that many cultures have flood legends
(presumably this just means they get flooded out every once in awhile).
However, there is very little evidence of a simultaneous
worldwide global flood.
>
>Don't think yourself so intellectually endowed as to think that any one who
>knows something that you don't is inferior. I for one, as a tested
>intellect and well trained, know that I have no clue why some understand and
>some do not other than what the Bible claims.
"Well trained"? In what?
I am well-trained [&] in programming; doesn't make me an expert in either
interpersonal relations (although problem breakdown could always use expertise
therein, mostly because it involves negotiation [+] with management or other
product groups) or finding about deities.
Also, this notion of being a "tested intellect" strikes me as a bit odd.
What test?
In any event, I don't think atheists are any more intellectually endowed than
anyone else; we simply believe in one less god than most theists. :-)
>
>
>Casey wrote in message ...
>>
>>V O J wrote in message <6u6pfo$sas$1...@nnrp03.primenet.com>...
>>>Argue with God. By the way I'm not God.
>>
>>
>>Can't argue with something that doesn't exist.
>>
>>You seem unable to defend your views in a rational manner.
>>
>>Plonk
>>
>>CASEY
>>
>>Just add water, Makes it's own sauce!
>>It's a way of life.
>>
>>
>
>
[*] I probably have the honorific cases all wrong. :-) For example,
"thou" is only to be used towards superiors, if I'm not mistaken.
Of course this is God talking... :-)
[&] My only formal training is in school on Pascal, which was more than
a decade ago; I have, however, learned quite a bit on the job, as it
were. C I picked up during my schooling; COBOL and C++ on the job.
When necessary, I will also pick up sufficient knowledge in Java
as well.
[+] "Nego", to deny; one can therefore assert that negotiation is the fine
art of saying "no, but how about this?" to put it crudely. :-)
I don't have a dictionary handy, however.
----
#191, ew...@aimnet.com