Absolute Outrage
Karim M T Farouki
There is an advertisment campaign in the Twin Cities... this is the
transcript as I recall it...
Hope for change, hope for change...
ARe you a homosexual and wish you weren't?
There is hope for change...
Thousands of Homosexuals have walked away from the lifestyl...
You can to!
What fucking BullShit! I am a heterosexual, this is not my fight, but I
take offense just the same! They are offering a 20 week "program" to
PURGE people who have "broken" their sexuality!
Our preliminary research shows several ways that we can harass this
Christian Pricks! (1) Call them at 1-800-201-2890 and ask for the Hope
For Change program... (2) Their web address is www.outpost-inc.com
(3) their e-mail address is ho...@outpost-inc.com
Does anyone know how to send an e-mail bomb? If not, even if we all
e-mail them, the point should be made, and we might crash their server!
If you have any thoughts or insights please e-mail me, as I don't
frequent these newsgroups! Good luck!
Simon
Thanks. I sent them an e-mail, and passed their address on to others, I
hope that others do the same.
Ezekiel Krahlin
On Wed, 26 Feb 1997 01:20:00 -0600, Karim M T Farouki
<kfar...@macalester.edu> imparted this delicious tidbit of wisdom:
>What fucking BullShit! I am a heterosexual, this is not my fight, but I
>take offense just the same! They are offering a 20 week "program" to
>PURGE people who have "broken" their sexuality!
Thanks a hundred times over for your help. But please stop saying
this is not your fight...it most certainly is! Should white people
not fight for black rights, or those of Native Americans, or Asians?
Should men not help fight for women's rights? Should adults not help
to fight against child abuse? Should humans not defend tortured
animals?
Should heterosexuals not help defend Lesbians & Thracians?
Don't you see? Your perspective *is* part of the problem...by
perceiving that this is not really your fight! That is an aspect of
heterosexist hubris. It is *heterosexuals* that created this
homophobic world, not homosexuals.
----------signature:
I prefer public dialogue...no personal replies, please
(except on request; will consider pen-pals).
Private, hostile comments will be re-posted in public.
Ezekiel Krahlin
On Wed, 26 Feb 1997 01:20:00 -0600, Karim M T Farouki
<kfar...@macalester.edu> imparted this delicious tidbit of wisdom:
>There is an advertisment campaign in the Twin Cities... this is the
>transcript as I recall it...
>
>Hope for change, hope for change...
>ARe you a homosexual and wish you weren't?
>There is hope for change...
>Thousands of Homosexuals have walked away from the lifestyl...
>You can to!
>
>What fucking BullShit! I am a heterosexual, this is not my fight, but I
>take offense just the same! They are offering a 20 week "program" to
>PURGE people who have "broken" their sexuality!
>Does anyone know how to send an e-mail bomb? If not, even if we all
>e-mail them, the point should be made, and we might crash their server!
>
>If you have any thoughts or insights please e-mail me, as I don't
>frequent these newsgroups! Good luck!
I don't have the technical savvy to e-mail bomb without getting
caught. I need to learn how to do it, and get away with it. Others
in this group may know (and clue us in, please?)
I looked at their page, and saw the "Joshua Support Group", described
as "A weekly ongoing confidential support group for men who struggle
with homosexual temptation and behavior. " One could join, as a
plant, and if enough of us join, we could turn it into a real gay
fest! But not to blow our cover to soon...let it go on for weeks or
month...letting them think we've come for help. This way, their
energies would be wasted, and we'd clog up their groups.
But this is only for those who have that kind of time, to be a
subversive "plant"...though it would be fun!
I'm sure others will come up with some good actions. Thanks for
letting us know about this.
Shaft
Ezekiel Krahlin wrote:
>
> On Wed, 26 Feb 1997 01:20:00 -0600, Karim M T Farouki
> <kfar...@macalester.edu> imparted this delicious tidbit of wisdom:
>
> >take offense just the same! They are offering a 20 week "program" to
> >PURGE people who have "broken" their sexuality!
>
> this is not your fight...it most certainly is! Should white people
> not fight for black rights, or those of Native Americans, or Asians?
> Should men not help fight for women's rights? Should adults not help
> to fight against child abuse? Should humans not defend tortured
> animals?
>
> Should heterosexuals not help defend Lesbians & Thracians?
>
> Don't you see? Your perspective *is* part of the problem...by
> perceiving that this is not really your fight! That is an aspect of
> heterosexist hubris. It is *heterosexuals* that created this
> homophobic world, not homosexuals.
Um...It's not his fight, or mine...We're just sympathizers to the cause
who happened to be disturbed by the commercial.
Don't expect to see me on the front lines any time soon.
XbenX
XOne Life Drug FreeX
Ralph&Paul
Chief_T...@Athenia.New,UseNetNews writes:
>I looked at their page, and saw the "Joshua Support Group", described
>as "A weekly ongoing confidential support group for men who struggle
>with homosexual temptation and behavior. " One could join, as a
>plant, and if enough of us join, we could turn it into a real gay
>fest! But not to blow our cover to soon...let it go on for weeks or
>month...letting them think we've come for help. This way, their
>energies would be wasted, and we'd clog up their groups.
did it ever occur to you that there are people who might find this sort
of thing comforting, and that they have a right to follow whatever path
they choose? i find this sort of support group very disturbing
and think that the folks who go to them would be better served by
learning to love themselves as happy gay & lesbian folk. BUT if they
choose to try to live as hets, i think they should be allowed to do so
in peace. i think that what you suggest not only gives the homophobes
something they crave (i.e. we need every fag we can get, and will stop
at nothing to get them), but also gives some very troubled people who
hate themselves all ready, more reason to " be straight". just
something for you to think about, thrashman
Ralph&Paul
Chief_T...@Athenia.New,UseNetNews writes:
>Don't you see? Your perspective *is* part of the problem...by
>perceiving that this is not really your fight! That is an aspect of
>heterosexist hubris. It is *heterosexuals* that created this
>homophobic world, not homosexuals.
shouldn't this read thracianphobic and thraciansexuals ? i guess not,
that would be stupid.
Ezekiel Krahlin
On Thu, 27 Feb 1997 02:07:02 -0600, Shaft <bch...@macalester.edu>
imparted this delicious tidbit of wisdom:
>Ezekiel Krahlin wrote:
>>
>> On Wed, 26 Feb 1997 01:20:00 -0600, Karim M T Farouki
>> <kfar...@macalester.edu> imparted this delicious tidbit of wisdom:
>>
>> >What fucking BullShit! I am a heterosexual, this is not my fight, but I
>> >take offense just the same! They are offering a 20 week "program" to
>> >PURGE people who have "broken" their sexuality!
>>
>> Thanks a hundred times over for your help. But please stop saying
>> this is not your fight...it most certainly is! Should white people
>> not fight for black rights, or those of Native Americans, or Asians?
>> Should men not help fight for women's rights? Should adults not help
>> to fight against child abuse? Should humans not defend tortured
>> animals?
>Um...It's not his fight, or mine...We're just sympathizers to the cause
>who happened to be disturbed by the commercial.
>
Why preface your statement that it's not your fight? Why not just
say, "I'm straight, and I care about gay people, so here is some
information you need to know."
I wouldn't dream of reporting important information to black people by
saying, "It's not my fight, but...". Or to women, or Native
Americans, etc. That's like presenting a gift in one hand, and
slapping the receiver with the other.
>Don't expect to see me on the front lines any time soon.
>
>XbenX
Aw c'mon guys...we need ya, and we love ya! Kiss kiss!
Diedrich G. Kohl
In <331513e4...@news.wco.com>, Chief_T...@Athenia.New (Ezekiel Krahlin) writes:
>On Wed, 26 Feb 1997 01:20:00 -0600, Karim M T Farouki
><kfar...@macalester.edu> imparted this delicious tidbit of wisdom:
>
>>What fucking BullShit! I am a heterosexual, this is not my fight, but I
>>take offense just the same! They are offering a 20 week "program" to
>>PURGE people who have "broken" their sexuality!
>
>Thanks a hundred times over for your help. But please stop saying
>this is not your fight...it most certainly is! Should white people
>not fight for black rights, or those of Native Americans, or Asians?
>Should men not help fight for women's rights? Should adults not help
>to fight against child abuse? Should humans not defend tortured
>animals?
>
>
>perceiving that this is not really your fight! That is an aspect of
>heterosexist hubris. It is *heterosexuals* that created this
>homophobic world, not homosexuals.
You're correct that social issues such as prejudice and discrimination
are the general concern of society, not just the concern of the group
most directly affected. It's similar to the principle under which
childless people pay school taxes.
However, I think you've gone too far, on three counts:
1. We have here a supportive, enlightened heterosexual who is offended
by homophobic ignorance, and furthermore, made a point of speaking
out publicly against it. It's more than most straight people do.
In another reply, someone criticizes Karim for "giving a gift with
one hand and taking it away with the other". Well, that's exactly
what you've done to Karim: you say thank you, but then devote the
remainder of your message to castigation. Criticizing supporters is
no way to win or retain support.
Karim's attitude is part of the solution, not part of the problem.
If everyone felt as Karim does, we would no longer HAVE a problem
(and this offensive ad would not exist in the first place).
2. I really think you are overreacting to his "not my fight" reference.
His actions speak louder than his disclaimer, in my opinion. If he
didn't really care about the issue, he wouldn't have bothered to
post the article. You might have translated the reference more
generously as "I'm not gay myself, so this doesn't directly affect
me in the same way that it does you".
3. By your own logic, may we assume that *you* have embraced as *your*
battles the causes of: illiteracy; world hunger; AIDS transmission
via shared needles; child abuse; racism; persecution of homosexuals
in Romania; day care for working mothers; preservation of historic
landmarks; consumer rights; and animal abuse? No? Why not?
Because everyone chooses his or her own battles to fight. You can't
expect everyone -- even supporters/sympathizers -- to actively take
on every possible cause. Nor can you impose your choices on others.
You may be passionate about a particular cause, but you must accept
that others may not be. It is only natural to be drawn to causes
according to vested interest: gay people to gay issues; parents to
school issues; historians to historic landmarks.
Let us not criticize Elizabeth Taylor because she hasn't chosen
animal abuse or consumer rights as her personal crusade, okay?
With thanks to Karim, Liz, Doris, Ralph, and others.
--Rick
Ezekiel Krahlin
On Thu, 27 Feb 1997 22:27:40 GMT, Ralph&Pa...@nycnet.com (Ralph&Paul)
said:
>Chief_T...@Athenia.New,UseNetNews writes:
>>I looked at their page, and saw the "Joshua Support Group", described
>>as "A weekly ongoing confidential support group for men who struggle
>>with homosexual temptation and behavior. " One could join, as a
>>plant, and if enough of us join, we could turn it into a real gay
>>fest! But not to blow our cover to soon...let it go on for weeks or
>>month...letting them think we've come for help. This way, their
>>energies would be wasted, and we'd clog up their groups.
>
>did it ever occur to you that there are people who might find this sort
>of thing comforting, and that they have a right to follow whatever path
>they choose?
And those who are godamn sick of persecution with no defense by gov't
or society at large...are quite comfortable with their own
path...which may be retaliating through infiltrating the enemy's
ranks. I'm sure people who disliked Nazis at first thought "Oh, well,
they're a fringe group, and have a right to be whoever they are, too".
We need an underground resistance!
>i find this sort of support group very disturbing
But not disturbing enough to admit the insanity of it.
>and think that the folks who go to them would be better served by
>learning to love themselves as happy gay & lesbian folk.
No kidding...why don't you let them know. See how long they'll
listen.
>choose to try to live as hets, i think they should be allowed to do so
>in peace.
The people who run these groups do not let Lesbians & Gays live in
peace...is this fact new to you?
>i think that what you suggest not only gives the homophobes
>something they crave (i.e. we need every fag we can get, and will stop
>at nothing to get them),
Should such a strike force that I propose ever come into existance
..it would more likely convince our government to put in place strict
laws against homophobia. I doubt homophobes would ever crave such an
invasive resistance in their own ranks. They want to be able to
strike at homosexuals, yet sit safely behind the shield of gov't and
social approval...they want to have their cake and eat it, too. They
are, at heart, cowards first, bigots second.
>but also gives some very troubled people who
>hate themselves all ready, more reason to " be straight".
I really, really doubt that. It's more likely, when they see more
civil resistance by Thracians, they'll have a lot more to reconsder.
>just something for you to think about, thrashman
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Yeah, and it took a whole two seconds.
But hey...I like the idea of *thrashing* around Thraciophobes! Don't
you? After all, these are psychopaths getting away with
murder...still sanctioned by ignorant social mores. Remeber: It took
a Watts Riot to make society listen on another issue: racism.
Perhaps it may take something equally drastic to establish the civil
rights of Lesbians and Thracians.
Ezekiel Krahlin
On Thu, 27 Feb 1997 22:15:27 GMT, Ralph&Pa...@nycnet.com (Ralph&Paul)
said:
>Chief_T...@Athenia.New,UseNetNews writes:
>>Don't you see? Your perspective *is* part of the problem...by
>>perceiving that this is not really your fight! That is an aspect of
>>heterosexist hubris. It is *heterosexuals* that created this
>>homophobic world, not homosexuals.
>
>shouldn't this read thracianphobic and thraciansexuals ? i guess not,
>that would be stupid.
Doesn't at all sound stupid to me...though if you are customed to
grunting out only one- or two-syllable words as your form of
communication, I'm sure the word "Thraciophobic" would be a real
killer (in more ways than one).
Sounds a lot better than "homo" to me! I'm sick of having "homo"
tagged on to every description of who I am and what I am.
"Homophobia" would become "Thraciophobia".
You wouldn't say "thraciansexual"; you'd just say "Thracian."
Any more questions? I'll be glad to answer them for you...you ask
such easy ones...they're a no-brainer.
Ralph&Paul
Chief_...@Athena.New,UseNetNews writes:
>Any more questions? I'll be glad to answer them for you...you ask
>such easy ones...they're a no-brainer.
i have to make the questions easy for you. when i pose the difficult
ones you start with homophobic conspiracy theories and take off into
X-files territory.
Ralph&Paul
Chief_...@Athena.New,UseNetNews writes:
>>did it ever occur to you that there are people who might find this sort
>>of thing comforting, and that they have a right to follow whatever path
>>they choose?
>And those who are goddamn sick of persecution with no defense by govt
>or society at large...are quite comfortable with their own
>path...which may be retaliating through infiltrating the enemy's
>ranks. I'm sure people who disliked Nazis at first thought "Oh, well,
>they're a fringe group, and have a right to be whoever they are, too".
>We need an underground resistance!
even if doing so tramples the rights of everyone else
>>i find this sort of support group very disturbing
>But not disturbing enough to admit the insanity of it.
i don't think it is insane. and i think that you could be a really
strong draw for them, as you sound like a really unhappy gay man
>
>>and think that the folks who go to them would be better served by
>>learning to love themselves as happy gay & lesbian folk.
>No kidding...why don't you let them know. See how long they'll
>listen.
it's not my place to run other peoples lives.
BTW: it's not yours either
>>choose to try to live as hets, i think they should be allowed to do so
>>in peace.
>The people who run these groups do not let Lesbians & Gays live in
>peace...is this fact new to you?
they've never bothered me. tell me, do they send a van to your house
every morning and try to kidnap you? i would have to say that the
people that join are there of their own volition
>>i think that what you suggest not only gives the homophobes
>>something they crave (i.e. we need every fag we can get, and will stop
>>at nothing to get them),
>Should such a strike force that I propose ever come into existence
>..it would more likely convince our government to put in place strict
>laws against homophobia. I doubt homophobes would ever crave such an
>invasive resistance in their own ranks. They want to be able to
>strike at homosexuals, yet sit safely behind the shield of govt and
>social approval...they want to have their cake and eat it, too. They
>are, at heart, cowards first, bigots second.
when this government starts to legislate peoples feelings I'll be
packing my bags and heading for Amsterdam.
>>but also gives some very troubled people who
>>hate themselves all ready, more reason to " be straight".
>I really, really doubt that. It's more likely, when they see more
>civil resistance by Tracings, they'll have a lot more to reconsider.
thrashman, I'm a really happy fag, but some of the stuff that you spout
scares me
>>just something for you to think about, thrashman
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>Yeah, and it took a whole two seconds.
pity, if you took the time to consider the thoughts and opinions of
others you might learn something and outgrow that anger.
R
JAY CROCE
What the hell is a thrashian?
Is this some hetero devise to make us stop saying we are gay?
Ciao 4 now,
Jay Croce cmt, cnmt
Lasciate ogni speranza voi ch'entrate!
Ralph&Paul
jps...@osfmail.isc.rit.edu,UseNetNews writes:
>JAY CROCE (jayc...@aol.com) wrote:
>: What the hell is a thrashian?
>: Is this some hetero devise to make us stop saying we are gay?
>I thought it was pretty dumb too. -shrug- Whatever floats his boat.
>I prefer "pillow-biter" :) It sounds more phun. :)
i've always prefered fag, but if it's phun you want i could switch to
phag.
r.
SPATULA
Ezekiel Krahlin
On 2 Mar 1997 09:54:52 GMT, jayc...@aol.com (JAY CROCE) said:
>What the hell is a thrashian?
>
>Is this some hetero devise to make us stop saying we are gay?
> Ciao 4 now,
> Jay Croce cmt, cnmt
>
> Lasciate ogni speranza voi ch'entrate!
"Thracian" is the correct spelling, pronounced thray-see-in (stress on
first syllable). I will now re-post part of a message I posted
before, which began the topic of "Thracian"...
-----begin quote
I propose the new label "Thracian" over "gay male," to symbolize the
new-found empowerment of the homophile community in this century's
closing decade. The word "gay" perpetuates a stereotype of ourselves
as flighty, emotional, and frivolous...not to be taken seriously, as
a citizen, as a human being, or as anything else! (Surely, women
have a similar complaint against male chauvanists.)
"Lesbian" is a beautiful term for the homosexual female; as
its name comes from a Greek Island with a rich, classical
history. The region of Thrace also has a great history, and
likewise plays an honored role in Hellenic culture...hence I coin
the term "Thracian" for those who are commonly thought of as "gay
male". Ancient Greeks first called their northern neighbors
"Thracians," and later, "Macedonians"...the people from whom
arose Alexander The Great. "Thracian" may also be used as a
general term for both homophile women and men, who are sick of
the belittling and ineffectual descriptor, "gay".
-----end quote
---
Zeke Krahlin, Jehovah's Queer Witness.
(Hail, Athenia...brave new nation!)
Please keep our dialogues public; private mail by request only.
Hostile private replies will be re-posted in the public arena.
Ezekiel Krahlin
On Sat, 1 Mar 1997 17:32:47 GMT, Ralph&Pa...@nycnet.com (Ralph&Paul)
said:
>Chief_...@Athena.New,UseNetNews writes:
>>And those who are goddamn sick of persecution with no defense by govt
>>or society at large...are quite comfortable with their own
>>path...which may be retaliating through infiltrating the enemy's
>>ranks. I'm sure people who disliked Nazis at first thought "Oh, well,
>>they're a fringe group, and have a right to be whoever they are, too".
>>We need an underground resistance!
>
>even if doing so tramples the rights of everyone else
No. There are times in the past, when a people had to bear arms in
resistance to a hateful majority. And there will be times in the
future. Sometimes they were crushed anyway, but at least they put up
a brave fight. If you think defending yourself from a basher is
trampling on her or his rights, I can't help you. If you think
aggressive tactics to put an end to the evil in our society called
homophobia, is trampling on others' rights, I don't care to know you.
Example: the underground resistance against Nazi tyranny. Do you
really believe they were trampling on other people's rights? They
were certainly aggressive.
>>>i find this sort of support group very disturbing
>
>>But not disturbing enough to admit the insanity of it.
>
>i don't think it is insane. and i think that you could be a really
>strong draw for them, as you sound like a really unhappy gay man
I am unhappy as hell, and mad as hell, about our society perpetuating
this terrible plague of homophobia...and I am *proud* of my anger.
But I am also quite happy and fulfilled about myself, as a human
being, a Thracian, and a free thinker.
You might have learned to be comfortable with a culture virulently
homophobic...no doubt you have a cozy upper middle class lifestyle,
and not rocking the boat is the best way for you to maintain it. You
are a conservative stick in the mud...the kind of queer who'll turn in
his own kind, rather than fight back...if it means keeping your cable
TV and other amenities.
>>>and think that the folks who go to them would be better served by
>>>learning to love themselves as happy gay & lesbian folk.
>
>>No kidding...why don't you let them know. See how long they'll
>>listen.
>
>it's not my place to run other peoples lives.
>BTW: it's not yours either
I'm not running anyone's lives...just offering a more aggressive
perspective to those who need to find effective ways to release their
anger against a terrible wrong, in a way that can defeat the enemy.
Do you think Winston Churchill was "running peoples' lives" during his
position of power in a true crisis? Do you think ACT-UP is "running
people's lives" when they take over a medical center in order to fight
for decent treatment? Do you think Eleanor Roosevelt was "running
people's lives" when she urged the President to tax the rich in order
to save the poor?
>>>choose to try to live as hets, i think they should be allowed to do so
>>>in peace.
>
>>The people who run these groups do not let Lesbians & Gays live in
>>peace...is this fact new to you?
>
>they've never bothered me. tell me, do they send a van to your house
>every morning and try to kidnap you? i would have to say that the
>people that join are there of their own volition
Boy, are you a snake in the grass. If everyone listened to you, all
homosexuals would be dead by now, or at least institutionalized.
They've never bothered you, huh? Does *anything* about homophobia
bother you...the deaths, sufferings of our gay sister and brothers,
all unnecessary?
No, they do worse than kidnapping...they kill, or threaten to kill,
GayFolk just about anywhere and everywhere we might be in this sorry
nation. They spew declarations of violence against us on the airwaves
and the press, constantly. For Thracians, this is a terrorist nation.
We have grown accustomed to looking over our shoulders the moment we
step out the door of our homes. Some of us have even had our homes
ignited, bombed, or shot at. We live under tyranny, we always
have...and it looks like we're reaching another crisis period, and
there's gonna be a showdown. We *must* win.
>>Should such a strike force that I propose ever come into existence
>>..it would more likely convince our government to put in place strict
>>laws against homophobia. I doubt homophobes would ever crave such an
>>invasive resistance in their own ranks. They want to be able to
>>strike at homosexuals, yet sit safely behind the shield of govt and
>>social approval...they want to have their cake and eat it, too. They
>>are, at heart, cowards first, bigots second.
>
>when this government starts to legislate peoples feelings I'll be
>packing my bags and heading for Amsterdam.
This is not legislating anyone's feelings...unless you interpret
strict laws against homophobia as legislation of feelings. In which
case, you'll be quite displeased with Amsterdam. I am only speaking
up in rage against this homophobic insanity in our society...most
other civilized democracies in this world--Holland, Sweden, Denmark,
Canada, to name a few--will no longer tolerate even one-tenth of the
homophobic preaching going on in Amerika.
>>>but also gives some very troubled people who
>>>hate themselves all ready, more reason to " be straight".
>
>>I really, really doubt that. It's more likely, when they see more
>>civil resistance by Tracings, they'll have a lot more to reconsider.
Absolutely incorrect. When more people speak out against unbearable
abuse, more victims of abuse grow courageous enough to fight back to
become who they really are, not who they are told they should be (at
risk of burning in hell).
>thrashman, I'm a really happy fag, but some of the stuff that you spout
>scares me
It *ought* to scare you...as you have a pathetically narrow mind. My
words,if they are worth anything, *do* frighten the willfully
prejudiced, but at the same time, they quicken the hearts of the
civilized. Here are two postings (among many) that enjoy my messages:
=====begin sample messages=====================
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 03:53:57 +0800
To: Ezekiel Krahlin <ekra...@fog.net>
Subject: Re: NuDeclaration Of Independence
References: <3302a972...@news.fog.net>
>Well done, old boy! I have read a few of your essays, and this post
>reinforces my opinion that you are one of the most intelligent people
>alive and still working for a cause. I'm only 18, but I agree with
>essentially all the points you have hitherto made. I hope one day I'm
>able to make as much of a difference as you seem to be doing.
>Keep up the great work.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1997 05:43:03
To: Ezekiel Krahlin <ekra...@fog.net>
Subject: Re: Philosophy/Spirituality
References: <3302a972...@news.fog.net>
>I hope I didn't leave you feeling that I am critical of your work. I
>have no objections to the path you are on, or the way you express
>yourself. I admire you for sticking you neck out and sharing what you
>feel. You are on the cutting edge of Thracian spirituality, and I know
>that you speak from your heart.
=====end sample messages========================
>thrashman, I'm a really happy fag,
I don't see myself as a "fag"...I have too much pride for that. "Gay"
neither, as it is another silly little 3-letter word. That's why I
came up with a title of dignity, just as "Lesbian" is. Ergo:
"Thracian".
>>>just something for you to think about, thrashman
>> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>Yeah, and it took a whole two seconds.
>
>pity, if you took the time to consider the thoughts and opinions of
>others you might learn something and outgrow that anger.
I will never outgrow anger against oppression...that is not something
to outgrow, like a tricycle or Romper Room. This kind of anger has
made great women and men through history. You have grown numb to
noble causes and lofty ideals, smug and comfortable in your little
island of affluent ignorance. Besides, I have considered, and still
do consider, all sorts of thoughts, opinions, and philosophies...in
order to keep my mind open.
You are a deceiver and obstructor of the truth, and a traitor to your
own sisters and brothers. I can see why you're happy to be called
"fag". You can neither distract nor turn me away from the most noble
cause of Same-Sex Lovers' Civil Rights...thanks for testing me, you
tired old, jaded urban queen of dead dreams. Go take your poison
apple and shove it up your ass (and seal it with stropping tape, else
it'll plop right out).
XAOS
On 2 Mar 1997 09:54:52 GMT, jayc...@aol.com (JAY CROCE) said:
>What the hell is a thrashian?
I'm sure it will come as no surprise that I actually kinda like
this as a name for myself. "Yeah, I work at a hardcore/industrial/
S&M nightclub. I'm a thrashian."
- Steve, whose roomie's gf's last name is Thrasher
--
I wish John Tesh (in a thong? yuck) and Michael Bolton had your mother.
- Marc Talusan
Xich Lo
Ezekiel Krahlin wrote:
> No, they do worse than kidnapping...they kill, or threaten to kill,
> GayFolk just about anywhere and everywhere we might be in this sorry
> nation. They spew declarations of violence against us on the airwaves
> and the press, constantly. For Thracians, this is a terrorist nation.
> We have grown accustomed to looking over our shoulders the moment we
> step out the door of our homes. Some of us have even had our homes
> ignited, bombed, or shot at. We live under tyranny, we always
> have...and it looks like we're reaching another crisis period, and
> there's gonna be a showdown. We *must* win.
Ezekiel, I know I am taking this one paragraph of yours out of context,
but I am actually just using it as an example of the somewhat paranoid
delusion under which you seem to be living. You seem to think that it
is the entire country that is against homosexuals and homosexuality.
Well, to put on simple example forward, I don't think ABC would ever
agree to have Ellen come out as a lesbian if this were the case. No,
the fact is, the incidents you cite are indeed terrorist actions, but
they are not government sanctioned (and to think they are is pretty
silly and, as I said, massively paranoid). They are carried out by
right-wing fanatics who advocate violence over dialogue and
understanding. Hmmm. Seems to me like you also advocate violence over
dialogue and understanding. You have proclaimed war on the U.S.
government, and if that's not a violent act, nothing is. If Martin
Luther King, Jr. and Gandhi tought us anything, it is that change will
happen much more readily through non-violent resistence, not through
violence. I know you're angry and mad as hell, and that is your right.
But you would do us all better if you would funnel that anger into
finding a constructive solution than alienating those from whom you seek
some kind of acceptance.
Ralph&Paul
Chief_T...@Athenia.New,UseNetNews writes:
>>Chief_...@Athena.New,UseNetNews writes:
>>>And those who are goddamn sick of persecution with no defense by govt
>>>or society at large...snipped for the sack of brevity We need an
>underground resistance!
>>
>>even if doing so tramples the rights of everyone else
snip If you think defending yourself from a basher is
>trampling on her or his rights, I can't help you. If you think
>aggressive tactics to put an end to the evil in our society called
>homophobia, is trampling on others' rights, I don't care to know you.
we weren't talking about bashing, we were talking about a support group
for "ex-gays". your argument is so weak that you have to have to
change the topic to make it work
>>>>i find this sort of support group very disturbing
>>
>>>But not disturbing enough to admit the insanity of it.
>>
>>i don't think it is insane. and i think that you could be a really
>>strong draw for them, as you sound like a really unhappy gay man
>I am unhappy as hell, and mad as hell, about our society perpetuating
>this terrible plague of homophobia...and I am *proud* of my anger.
>But I am also quite happy and fulfilled about myself, as a human
>being, a Thracian, and a free thinker.
>You might have learned to be comfortable with a culture virulently
>homophobic..
a country that is coming closer to equal rights for us every day, with
ABSOLUTLY no help from you
>.no doubt you have a cozy upper middle class lifestyle,
>and not rocking the boat is the best way for you to maintain it. You
>are a conservative stick in the mud...the kind of queer who'll turn in
>his own kind, rather than fight back...if it means keeping your cable
>TV and other amenities.
i am a 35 year old man living with AIDS on public assistance, i don't
own a tv. you are as well informed about me as you are about every
other thing i've seen you post.
>>>>and think that the folks who go to them would be better served by
>>>>learning to love themselves as happy gay & lesbian folk.
>>
>>>No kidding...why don't you let them know. See how long they'll
>>>listen.
>>
>>it's not my place to run other peoples lives.
>>BTW: it's not yours either
>I'm not running anyone's lives...snip
thankfully
> Do you think ACT-UP is "running
>people's lives" when they take over a medical center in order to fight
>for decent treatment? snip
Have you ever been on an AIDS ward? I've spent months on them, and
they are filled with the most caring loving people that i have ever
meet. I deeply resent ACT-UP when they pull their publicity shit, and
disrupt care for people who need it
>>>>choose to try to live as hets, i think they should be allowed to do
>so
>>>>in peace.
>>
>>>The people who run these groups do not let Lesbians & Gays live in
>>>peace...is this fact new to you?
>>
>>they've never bothered me. tell me, do they send a van to your house
>>every morning and try to kidnap you? i would have to say that the
>>people that join are there of their own volition
>Boy, are you a snake in the grass. If everyone listened to you, all
>homosexuals would be dead by now, or at least institutionalized.
>They've never bothered you, huh? Does *anything* about homophobia
>bother you...the deaths, sufferings of our gay sister and brothers,
>all unnecessary?
See above, i thought we were talking about a support group for
"ex-gays". silly me, i keep forgetting that if your argument isn't
working you'll change the topic.
snip
>>>Should such a strike force that I propose ever come into existence
>>>..it would more likely convince our government to put in place strict
>>>laws against homophobia. snip
>>
>>when this government starts to legislate peoples feelings I'll be
>>packing my bags and heading for Amsterdam.
>This is not legislating anyone's feelings...unless you interpret
>strict laws against homophobia as legislation of feelings. snip
look up homophobia, it's a feeling. i'd much rather see laws to end
discrimination.
>>>>but also gives some very troubled people who
>>>>hate themselves all ready, more reason to " be straight".
>>
>>>I really, really doubt that. It's more likely, when they see more
>>>civil resistance by Tracings, they'll have a lot more to reconsider.
>Absolutely incorrect. When more people speak out against unbearable
>abuse, more victims of abuse grow courageous enough to fight back to
>become who they really are, not who they are told they should be (at
>risk of burning in hell).
you refuted your own post there fool.
>>thrashman, I'm a really happy fag, but some of the stuff that you spout
>>scares me
>It *ought* to scare you...as you have a pathetically narrow mind.
my mind is wide open, if it weren't i would have ceased to read your
posts weeks ago (shortly after you showed up here, newbie)
> My
>words,if they are worth anything, *do* frighten the willfully
>prejudiced, but at the same time, they quicken the hearts of the
>civilized. Here are two postings (among many) that enjoy my messages:
>=====begin sample messages==snipped cause it's too pathetic to
>repost===================
>=end sample messages========================
speaks for itself
>>thrashman, I'm a really happy fag,
>I don't see myself as a "fag"...I have too much pride for that. "Gay"
>neither, as it is another silly little 3-letter word. That's why I
>came up with a title of dignity, just as "Lesbian" is. Ergo:
>"Thracian".
So the more letters a word has, the greater it's dignity?
it brings to mind a line from an old Ken Russell film.
"A man of words huh? He makes up in
diction, what he lacks in dick."
>>>>just something for you to think about, thrashman
>>> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>>Yeah, and it took a whole two seconds.
>>
>>pity, if you took the time to consider the thoughts and opinions of
>>others you might learn something and outgrow that anger.
>I will never outgrow anger against oppression...that is not something
>to outgrow, like a tricycle or Romper Room. snip You have grown numb to
>noble causes and lofty ideals, smug and comfortable in your little
>island of affluent ignorance. snip
bet you my next book of food stamps that your wrong
>You are a deceiver and obstructor of the truth, and a traitor to your
>own sisters and brothers. I can see why you're happy to be called
>"fag". You can neither distract nor turn me away from the most noble
>cause of Same-Sex Lovers' Civil Rights...thanks for testing me, you
>tired old, jaded urban queen of dead dreams. Go take your poison
>apple and shove it up your ass (and seal it with stropping tape, else
>it'll plop right out).
I've often found that it's better not to end a post with name calling,
it shows everyone how small minded you are, and draws attention to the
relative strength of your argument. it's a very poor debate tactic.
Also i'd prefer a poison cucumber, if you've got one available. And i
won't need the tape.
Ezekiel Krahlin
On Tue, 4 Mar 1997 11:39:17 GMT, Ralph&Pa...@nycnet.com (Ralph&Paul)
said:
>Chief_T...@Athenia.New,UseNetNews writes:
>we weren't talking about bashing, we were talking about a support group
>for "ex-gays". your argument is so weak that you have to have to
>change the topic to make it work
I've never heard anything so ridiculous and insulting as a support
group for ex-gays. It turns my stomach...as you do to, for your
gleefull acceptance of what, in reality, is an ugly, smug slap in the
face to every decent homosexual that exists.
>a country that is coming closer to equal rights for us every day, with
>ABSOLUTLY no help from you
Sure, we're getting there...but it better speed up, else we'll be in
big, big, trouble. Most other democracies have finally resolved their
problems with GayFolk...but this country sucks, it's dragging its feet
while perfectly harmless people continue to be bashed, isolated, and
denied decent work. You say ABSOLUTELy no help from me...ridiculous.
I've accomplished a lot on behalf of Thracian rights...mostly behind
the scenes...but I do get news coverage now and then.
If you're interested in some of things I've accomplished, I'll post
some scanned news articles in alt.binaries.pictures.misc, for you to
see. One of them is when I addressed our Marines in Somalia, in 1993,
as a gay activist, and lover of a Vietnam Veteran. I also proposed,
in a letter to the editor in 1988, that we wear the pink triangle
point upward, to symbolize the ascension of the les/gay community in
the 90's, and the world's reversal in attitude from negative to
positive. Several months later, the first T-shirts came out with the
pink triangle point-up. I've influenced our community in other,
subtle ways, via my numerous letters to the editor, of our gay rags
(local and national), over many years. I also flew out to D.C. on my
own money, to stand by the side of our war hero, Randolph Louis
Taylor...who shot himself in front of The Wall, and survived. He was
also a gay rights activist, who fasted for 40 days to have Vietnam
Veterans represented at the 1984 Democratic Convention.
I recently changed my legal name from Gene Catalano to Ezekiel
Krahlin...though I don't expect you to remember my old name...but
that's the one I have been published under until recently. As a
matter of fact, I will post tonight, a .gif of a news article about
me, and Somalian Marines...get it in alt.binaries.pictures.misc, just
search for the name "Krahlin" in the subject title.
>>.no doubt you have a cozy upper middle class lifestyle,
>>and not rocking the boat is the best way for you to maintain it. You
>>are a conservative stick in the mud...the kind of queer who'll turn in
>>his own kind, rather than fight back...if it means keeping your cable
>>TV and other amenities.
>
>i am a 35 year old man living with AIDS on public assistance, i don't
>own a tv. you are as well informed about me as you are about every
>other thing i've seen you post.
You certainly come off like one...perhaps one who emulates or aspires
to be like that...very status quo, conservative. But I also have met
a lot of very poor people who still voted for Proposition 13, Reagan
and Bush for President, and who worship the status quo, even though
they'll never be part of it.
>Have you ever been on an AIDS ward? I've spent months on them, and
>they are filled with the most caring loving people that i have ever
>meet. I deeply resent ACT-UP when they pull their publicity shit, and
>disrupt care for people who need it
I figured you for that type. I have been on AIDS wards, I have seen
my best friends die agonizingly. One of them was grossly mistreated
by the nursing staff at S.F. General Hospital. I personally am not an
ACT-UP activist, as I work best freelance...never fit into groups, for
the most part. But I do know that ACT-UP has made many sacrifices in
order to have these great advances in medical treatment that now is
available. The improved medical care that I hope you're receiving is
directly due to courageous, enraged souls such as ACT-UP. You're an
ingrate, because you're a snot-nosed conservative.
>>Boy, are you a snake in the grass. If everyone listened to you, all
>>homosexuals would be dead by now, or at least institutionalized.
>>They've never bothered you, huh? Does *anything* about homophobia
>>bother you...the deaths, sufferings of our gay sister and brothers,
>>all unnecessary?
>
>See above, i thought we were talking about a support group for
>"ex-gays". silly me, i keep forgetting that if your argument isn't
>working you'll change the topic.
I've never gone off topic, but dealt directly with every word you
said, line for line. I'm just telling you what you are...you don't
fool me for a minute.
>look up homophobia, it's a feeling. i'd much rather see laws to end
>discrimination.
Often, cruel bigotry does not get abated by any law, until enough
people fight back in righteous anger. Do you believe that every law
to protect minorities came about through only peaceful dialogue? No,
you don't lift a finger on behalf of the suffering innocent...yet you
take all the benefits that have come from souls who've put their lives
on the line, and sometimes died doing so.
>my mind is wide open, if it weren't i would have ceased to read your
>posts weeks ago (shortly after you showed up here, newbie)
Good, I'm glad I have your attention...that's one reason I'm here.
Perhaps some of what I'm saying will sink in. I am no newbia to
computer messaging...just been inactive in Usenet for a couple years.
I have been a computer and BBS consultant for over fifteen years...and
have participated in global conversations years before Internet got
popular. I did this through echomail services, of which Usenet was
among one of many.
>So the more letters a word has, the greater it's dignity?
>it brings to mind a line from an old Ken Russell film.
> "A man of words huh? He makes up in
>diction, what he lacks in dick."
Then you just missed the point...that "gay" is a sterotyping term
which I resent. "Thracian" is a truly diginifying word well-deserved
by homophiles. It is an equal match to "Lesbian".
>>>>>just something for you to think about, thrashman
>>>> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>>>Yeah, and it took a whole two seconds.
>>I will never outgrow anger against oppression...that is not something
>>to outgrow, like a tricycle or Romper Room. snip You have grown numb to
>>noble causes and lofty ideals, smug and comfortable in your little
>>island of affluent ignorance. snip
>
>bet you my next book of food stamps that your wrong
So you're a snob wanna-be. I've met plenty of 'em...walking around
with their noses turned up...eating at greasy spoons in gay ghettoes,
treating waiters like they're peons, coercing them to wait on them
hand and foot, then leaving a penny tip.
>I've often found that it's better not to end a post with name calling,
>it shows everyone how small minded you are, and draws attention to the
>relative strength of your argument. it's a very poor debate tactic.
>Also i'd prefer a poison cucumber, if you've got one available. And i
>won't need the tape.
Well, whatever. I call a spade a spade. You don't deserve any better
for being such a political sellout. Your quality medical treatment
was built on the backs of the same people you view with disgust. How
can I not view you with equal loathing?
You know these ex-gay groups suck, and are another tentacle of the
beast of homophobia. Yet you kiss up to them, all the same.
---
Ezekiel Krahlin
>Ezekiel, I know I am taking this one paragraph of yours out of context,
>but I am actually just using it as an example of the somewhat paranoid
>delusion under which you seem to be living. You seem to think that it
>is the entire country that is against homosexuals and homosexuality.
Homophobia is still, to a large extent, an across-the-board, socially
sanctioned and encouraged attitude in this country. There is hardly
any place in the U.S. where GayFolk do *not* have to constantly look
over their shoulder. Even in our own ghettoes, we are at risk of
being bashed or killed, just for holding hands or sharing a kiss.
>Well, to put on simple example forward, I don't think ABC would ever
>agree to have Ellen come out as a lesbian if this were the case. No,
>the fact is, the incidents you cite are indeed terrorist actions, but
>they are not government sanctioned (and to think they are is pretty
>silly and, as I said, massively paranoid).
The "gays in the military issue" and DOMA come to mind as hate tactics
against homosexuals...by a President who is supposed to be
"progressive." Television should be called, "The ongoing affairs of
heterosexual people". There are hardly and gay characters
anywhere...and when there are, they usually play vulgar
stereotypes...a "guffaw" factor. Ellen's comng out--if it does
happen--is too little, too late...but an improvement.
>They are carried out by
>right-wing fanatics who advocate violence over dialogue and
>understanding.
No, much of the "liberal" faction has caved in to the right. In their
silence, they give support to the furtherence of the homophobic
agenda. This country has become so dumbed-down and ultraconservative,
I wish I were living in a more progressive society. Perhaps I will,
eventually, be able to make the move. Our liberal churches that are
so often on the front lines for different civil rights
issues--demonstrating, mass-mailing...are totally *silent* in
defending the homosexual. Blood is therefore on their hands, too.
The only pro-gay churches you see actively challenging homophobia, are
tiny, isolated groups scattered here and there.
>Hmmm. Seems to me like you also advocate violence over
>dialogue and understanding.
I'm disgusted with our homophobic society. I advocate that more gays
and lesbians should protect themselves wherever they are. Pepper
spray is a good answer. Legal acquisition of a gun is another. Many
times when I read the newspaper about another gay being bashed, s/he
did not possess a weapon of defense, like pepper spray. We should
take to the streets, and make the public know we are armed and ready
to defend ourselves. At demonstrations, we should pepper spray any
idiot who starts to bash. This will instill an effective warning
against society to back off, dammit.
>You have proclaimed war on the U.S.
>government, and if that's not a violent act, nothing is. If Martin
>Luther King, Jr. and Gandhi tought us anything, it is that change will
>happen much more readily through non-violent resistence, not through
>violence.
Maybe so, maybe not so. War was declared on King George in colonial
America. The Watts Riot leading into the long hot summer, awoke this
nation to racism. War can be declared without any intention to do
violence...it can be a powerful state that, with the right actions,
can lead to a peaceful dismantling of a government to rebuild a better
(non homophobic) one.
You read violence into my lines, when they are not there. Perhaps you
should rethink your assumptions.
>I know you're angry and mad as hell, and that is your right.
>But you would do us all better if you would funnel that anger into
>finding a constructive solution than alienating those from whom you seek
>some kind of acceptance.
You are entitled to your opinion, of course. But you make assumptions
that don't seem to be true. I am not alienating those I want to help.
Some may not like my words...but there are others who do. I am not
here to be liked or accepted. I am here to speak the truth, and it
makes my blood boil. You imply that my suggestions are not
constructive. How can you be so sure of this? I can think of many
times in history where righteous rage was the only way for a people to
go, in order to climb out of oppression. I wish a lot more GayFolk
would use this rage, instead of suppressing it like sheep. So I am
setting an example.
You have suppressed the disgusting and desperate situation the
homosexual is in now, in our country. Perhaps it is just too horrible
for you to face. But the situation is grave and dangerous...and is
likely to erupt into a pogrom, before our government finally instates
effective laws agains gay hatred.
Perhaps you are so accustomed to existing in the shadows, on the
fringe, between the lines of majority ethics, being
second-class...that it has come to seem "not so bad" as it now stands.
There is hardly any other western democracy, any more, in this world
that would tolerate the seething hatred of the homosexual that is so
freely welcome in this country.
You bet I'm mad, I'm mad as hell. If in the process of expressing my
anger, I alienate some people, well, so what. I know I speak truth,
and it is very important to speak it publicly. Here's a couple of
quotes from two people (each one from a different person), whom I did
not alienate:
>Well done, old boy!
>I have read a few of your essays, and this post
>reinforces my opinion that you are one of the most intelligent people
>alive and still working for a cause. I'm only 18, but I agree with
>essentially all the points you have hitherto made. I hope one day I'm
>able to make as much of a difference as you seem to be doing.
and...
>I hope I didn't leave you feeling that I am critical of your work. I
>have no objections to the path you are on, or the way you express
>yourself. I admire you for sticking you neck out and sharing what you
>feel. You are on the cutting edge of Thracian spirituality, and I know
>that you speak from your heart.
---
Osmosis
Ezekiel Krahlin (Chief_T...@Athenia.New) wrote:
: "Thracian" is the correct spelling, pronounced thray-see-in (stress on
: first syllable). I will now re-post part of a message I posted
: before, which began the topic of "Thracian"...
[Bit about its history snipped]
-shrug- that's all very well and good, but it doesn't make sense unless you
add that little history bit every time. I personally think I'd rahter be
called a fag. :) Thracian just looks and sounds awkward, but then I think
the word "lesbian" does too. Ah well. My $.02
Ralph&Paul
Proud_T...@Are.You,UseNetNews writes:
>On Tue, 4 Mar 1997 11:39:17 GMT, Ralph&Pa...@nycnet.com (Ralph&Paul)
>said:
>>for "ex-gays". your argument is so weak that you have to have to
>>change the topic to make it work
>I've never heard anything so ridiculous and insulting as a support
>group for ex-gays. It turns my stomach...as you do to, for your
>gleefull acceptance of what, in reality, is an ugly, smug slap in the
>face to every decent homosexual that exists.
I'VE never heard anything so ridiculous and insulting as the shit that
you post in this newsgroup, but i wouldn't want the right to censor
you.
>>a country that is coming closer to equal rights for us every day, with
>>ABSOLUTLY no help from you
>Sure, we're getting there...but it better speed up, else we'll be in
>big, big, trouble.
Why? people of color had to wait more than a century before they got
equal rights. We've only been at it for thirty years and we've
probably got another twenty to go.
>If you're interested in some of things I've accomplished, I'll post
>some scanned news articles in alt.binaries.pictures.misc, for you to
>see.
I am NOT THE LEAST BIT INTRESTED in your pathetic self-congratulatory
postings, but you'll notice i didn't snip the location so anyone else
here can go read your drivel
>>>.no doubt you have a cozy upper middle class lifestyle,
>You certainly come off like one...perhaps one who emulates or aspires
>to be like that...very status quo, conservative.
you come off as a fucking nutcase. you don't know the first thing about
me
>>Have you ever been on an AIDS ward? I've spent months on them, and
>>they are filled with the most caring loving people that i have ever
>>meet. I deeply resent ACT-UP when they pull their publicity shit, and
>>disrupt care for people who need it
>I figured you for that type.
what type is that? the type that puts the health and comfort of the
sick before political publicity stunts?
> I have been on AIDS wards, I have seen
>my best friends die agonizingly. One of them was grossly mistreated
>by the nursing staff at S.F. General Hospital.
your whole argument is (naturally) based on one bad experience related
to you by a friend. mine is based on months of actual personal
experience.
>I personally am not anACT-UP activist, as I work best freelance...never
>fit into groups, forthe most part.
i could have figured that out by myself
>You're an ingrate, because you're a snot-nosed conservative.
you're a pathetic little man with no love in his life and no hope of
ever finding any.
>>>Boy, are you a snake in the grass.snip
>>
>>See above, i thought we were talking about a support group for
>>"ex-gays". silly me, i keep forgetting that if your argument isn't
>>working you'll change the topic.
>I've never gone off topic, but dealt directly with every word you
>said, line for line. I'm just telling you what you are...you don't
>fool me for a minute.
it's hard to fool a fool, gotta be almost impossible to get one past
you.
>>look up homophobia, it's a feeling. I'd much rather see laws to end
>>discrimination.
>Often, cruel bigotry does not get abated by any law, until enough
>people fight back in righteous anger. Do you believe that every law
>to protect minorities came about through only peaceful dialogue? No,
>you don't lift a finger on behalf of the suffering innocent...
you don't know what i do on behalf of the suffering innocent, and
unlike you, i don't feel compelled to post my "great deeds" .
>>my mind is wide open, if it weren't i would have ceased to read your
>>posts weeks ago (shortly after you showed up here, newbie)
>Good, I'm glad I have your attention...
if you keep coming back with the same shit you've been spouting you
won't have it much longer.
>So you're a snob wanna-be. I've met plenty of 'em...walking around
>with their noses turned up...eating at greasy spoons in gay ghettoes,
>treating waiters like they're peons, coercing them to wait on them
>hand and foot, then leaving a penny tip.
restaurants don't take food stamps, and if i was to treat anyone badly
I'd start with you. you are a pompous, arrogant, self-centered, narrow
minded bigot, and you think that yours is the ONLY way. i hate to
burst your bubble, but there are thousands of us who can put aside our
pettiness and work together for the common good. and YOU will never be
one of them, cause if you worked with a team you wouldn't get the
recognition you deserve and your life is so small and full of hate
that you couldn't bear to share the spotlight. the most satisfying good
deeds are done unnoticed and unrewarded. so you go on with your huge
political uprising that you spout about incessantly, and when you make
it happen be sure to post the glowing reports. i meanwhile will
continue to try to make the lives of those around me happy, fun, and
filled with love and acceptance for all of us.
i pity you, destined to spend your life alone, because everyone else is
flawed.
Xich Lo
Ezekiel Krahlin wrote:
>
> Television should be called, "The ongoing affairs of
> heterosexual people". There are hardly and gay characters
> anywhere...and when there are, they usually play vulgar
> stereotypes...a "guffaw" factor. Ellen's comng out--if it does
> happen--is too little, too late...but an improvement.
Just for the record, the following currently running shows have or have
had prominent gay and lesbian characters presented in a very positive
light. This list indicates that Ezekiel's claim that there are hardly
any gay characters on television is just not true.
Please note that all of these shows are high-profile and very popular:
NYPD Blue
Friends
Ellen
Roseanne
Party of Five
Melrose Place
Relativity
Chicago Hope
Spin City
Mad About You
Murder One
There may be others. If anyone can add to the list, please feel free
to.
Ken Rudolph
Xich Lo wrote:
>
> Ezekiel Krahlin wrote:
> >
> > Television should be called, "The ongoing affairs of
> > heterosexual people". There are hardly and gay characters
> > anywhere...and when there are, they usually play vulgar
> > stereotypes...a "guffaw" factor. Ellen's comng out--if it does
> > happen--is too little, too late...but an improvement.
>
> had prominent gay and lesbian characters presented in a very positive
> light. This list indicates that Ezekiel's claim that there are hardly
> any gay characters on television is just not true.
>
> Please note that all of these shows are high-profile and very popular:
>
> NYPD Blue
> Friends
> Ellen
> Roseanne
> Party of Five
> Melrose Place
> Relativity
> Chicago Hope
> Spin City
> Mad About You
> Murder One
ER has had two: Maggie Doyle and Raul, the paramedic.
--Ken Rudolph (ke...@worldnet.att.net)
Jake Coughlin
Ken Rudolph (ke...@worldnet.att.net) wrote:
: ER has had two: Maggie Doyle and Raul, the paramedic.
Raul..... i'm getting dreamie... *ugh*, i
was weak, *weak* when i watched that episode.
--
__
\/ Jake Coughlin (ja...@panix.com)
"When the tongue or the pen is let loose in a frenzy of passion, it is
the man, and not the subject, that becomes exhausted." -- Thomas Paine
Ezekiel Krahlin
On Thu, 06 Mar 1997 11:07:46 +0000, Xich Lo
<kevin_...@ccmail.turner.com> said:
>Ezekiel Krahlin wrote:
>>
>> Television should be called, "The ongoing affairs of
>> heterosexual people".
>Just for the record, the following currently running shows have or have
>had prominent gay and lesbian characters presented in a very positive
>light. This list indicates that Ezekiel's claim that there are hardly
>any gay characters on television is just not true.
Excellent, thanks for enlightening me. It's been several years since
I stopped watching television on a regular basis, including weekly
shows. This is definitely something to be proud of...though I don't
think the time on TV--when counted minute-by-minute--comes close yet
to the approximate 10% ratio that is reasonable and realistic. Still
an uphill climb.
And, when I do flipped around the TV, I never see any gay-supportive
scenes except very rarely...which tells me that we still got a ways to
go. Oh, yeah, I do like the gay humor so prevalent in Mad TV and
Saturday Night Live...they deserve gold medals. I really crack up
over "Cabana Chat"...what fun! Isn't Beach Boy hilarious?
Now...what about televison and radio ads? Where the hell are we? How
much longer must we put up with this slap in the face?
Diedrich G. Kohl
In <331fe377...@news.wco.com>, chief_t...@athenia.com
(Ezekiel Krahlin) writes:
>On Thu, 06 Mar 1997 11:07:46 +0000, Xich Lo
><kevin_...@ccmail.turner.com> said:
>>Ezekiel Krahlin wrote:
>>> Television should be called, "The ongoing affairs of
>>> heterosexual people".
>
Also:
- `Cybil'
- `Frasier'
- `Cagney & Lacey' [do cancelled series count?]
- The various `Star Trek' series have had gay-positive episodes about
gay issues and characters (in traditional allegorical Trek style).
On `Star Trek: The Next Generation', for example, there was a very
poignant and incisive episode (`The Outcast') deploring conversion
therapy. (Too bad they don't have a regular character.)
Does it count that virtually every actor on `Bewitched' was gay (at
least according to a National Enquirer headline I saw once in the
checkout line at Safeway)? :-)
>I don't think the time on TV--when counted minute-by-minute--comes
>close yet to the approximate 10% ratio that is reasonable and
>realistic. Still an uphill climb.
No, it's certainly not representative yet.
Or another good measure might be: ratio of regular characters.
An even better one would be: ratio of leading characters.
I wonder if `Roseanne' holds the record for "highest gay/straight
ratio of regular characters in a TV series"? (Maybe that should be a
new Emmy category, huh?)
The increasing presence is good, but I do think that some of the gay/
lesbian characters are still stereotypes. (Flamboyancy is funnier,
unfortunately.)
Overall it does seem to be improving, though. At least now they're
"out" (unlike Munro in `Too Close For Comfort').
>Now...what about televison and radio ads? Where the hell are we?
Virtually nonexistent. The only thing I can think of was an ad for
some sport-utility vehicle showing two women, who one might guess
to be a couple, camping.
--Rick,
signing off now, pilgrims, to go watch an old John Wayne movie on HBO
TIMjan21
Also a group called EVERGREEN out of Utah that advertises the same shit.
They believe a gay person should pray it away or something like that.
William Thauer
Ken Rudolph (ke...@worldnet.att.net) wrote:
: ER has had two: Maggie Doyle and Raul, the paramedic.
: --Ken Rudolph (ke...@worldnet.att.net)
...and also, (and this is quite arguable) the TRULY WONDERFUL forensic
pathologist who showed up only twice (I believe). Nothing was said
on the issue, but she was a middle-aged woman with a buzz-cut and
"a certain glow" with not a trace of repressed housewife to be found.
However the character (or the actress) identifies herself,
I wish they'd bring her back. Damn she was believable!
-Bill
Ezekiel Krahlin
On Wed, 5 Mar 1997 17:32:10 GMT, Ralph&Pa...@nycnet.com (Ralph&Paul)
said:
>Proud_T...@Are.You,UseNetNews writes:
>>I've never heard anything so ridiculous and insulting as a support
>>group for ex-gays. It turns my stomach...as you do to, for your
>>gleefull acceptance of what, in reality, is an ugly, smug slap in the
>>face to every decent homosexual that exists.
>
>I'VE never heard anything so ridiculous and insulting as the shit that
>you post in this newsgroup, but i wouldn't want the right to censor
>you.
Censorship is not a right, it's an abuse.
>>>a country that is coming closer to equal rights for us every day, with
>>>ABSOLUTLY no help from you
>
>>Sure, we're getting there...but it better speed up, else we'll be in
>>big, big, trouble.
>
>Why? people of color had to wait more than a century before they got
>equal rights. We've only been at it for thirty years and we've
>probably got another twenty to go.
Depends on where you start counting. You could point to Walt
Whitman's time...or to a medieval period (when monks made devotional
vows)...or to a number of other times, and use it as the beginning
point for Les/Gay Rights. The Stonewall Riots are just the beginning
of another cycle. The gauge you use is pointless, as homosexuals have
been persecuted *longer* than African Americans. By your gauge, we
should all just sit still and not rock the boat for another sevently
years. Why not? Apathy suits a lot of people, no matter what the
issue.
>>If you're interested in some of things I've accomplished, I'll post
>>some scanned news articles in alt.binaries.pictures.misc, for you to
>>see.
>
>I am NOT THE LEAST BIT INTRESTED in your pathetic self-congratulatory
>postings, but you'll notice i didn't snip the location so anyone else
>here can go read your drivel
Really, a predictable reply.
>you come off as a fucking nutcase.
I must pause here to acknowledge your elegant use of the English
Language. Queerbonics anyone?
>you don't know the first thing about me
Yes I do, and the first thing is: "Bigot."
>what type is that? the type that puts the health and comfort of the
>sick before political publicity stunts?
Since you hate ACT-UP so much, I know you're a hypocrite.
>your whole argument is (naturally) based on one bad experience related
>to you by a friend. mine is based on months of actual personal
>experience.
No, there were other friends, too. Medical society is a big money
machine. The poor get little, or no, treatment...how wonderful, how
caring.
>>You're an ingrate, because you're a snot-nosed conservative.
>
>you're a pathetic little man with no love in his life and no hope of
>ever finding any.
I have plenty of love in my life...I am very fortunate.
>>Often, cruel bigotry does not get abated by any law, until enough
>>people fight back in righteous anger. Do you believe that every law
>>to protect minorities came about through only peaceful dialogue? No,
>>you don't lift a finger on behalf of the suffering innocent...
>
>you don't know what i do on behalf of the suffering innocent, and
>unlike you, i don't feel compelled to post my "great deeds" .
Oh, I wouldn't be surprised if you've accomplished many good works.
But your right-wing drivel against incredible people such as ACT-UP
activists, and other activists...just puts a bad mark on your
achievements.
I am not so much "compelled" to toot my own horn...but that, since I
don't have the connections or money, I must promote my works. I
believe I have a lot to offer for Gay Rights...and I would only have
myself to blame, if I did not promote myself.
>>Good, I'm glad I have your attention...
>if you keep coming back with the same shit you've been spouting you
>won't have it much longer.
I don't need your attention, I don't want it. Do us all a favor and
put me in your kill file. I will be honored.
>i hate to
>burst your bubble,
Oh do you now? You speak with forked tongue! You say one thing, but
really mean the opposite.
>but there are thousands of us who can put aside our
>pettiness and work together for the common good. and YOU will never be
>one of them,
Are you kidding? I've done a lot of good things already...which
examples in an earlier post, you conveniently ignore.
>cause if you worked with a team you wouldn't get the
>recognition you deserve and your life is so small and full of hate
>that you couldn't bear to share the spotlight. the most satisfying good
>deeds are done unnoticed and unrewarded.
Working with a team is not *always* the best way to do things. An
awful lot of backstabbing and stealing credit from those who earned
it, is all too common. As far as the most satisfying deeds going
unnoticed...you have a point there, but it's only the tip of your
head. Many people do great kindnesses with no recognition...often
being spit upon in the process. One of my main goals in gay rights is
to encourage and promote the recognition of our unsung heros...to give
them space in the gay community they so well deserve...instead of
being ostracized from groups because of the selfish elite that wants
it all for itself. My life is neither small nor full of hate, FYI.
>so you go on with your huge
>political uprising that you spout about incessantly, and when you make
>it happen be sure to post the glowing reports.
I intend to open the door for many to be recognized for their
wonderful contributions, who have so far been smugly rejected by the
elite in the GayWorld, by your kind. I will be proud to not just post
my own glowing reports, but to facilitate many others' glowing
reports...that are so eagerly suppressed by the ruling QueerElite.
>i meanwhile will
>continue to try to make the lives of those around me happy, fun, and
>filled with love and acceptance for all of us.
Well, you keep that up. I believe that you are a decent person...just
that for some strange reason, you present yourself as a right wing
bigot type, albeit gay, when addressing me. Well, if it helps your
healing, to sink your venemous teeth into my arm...go right ahead, I
won't bite back...but I will rebut as appropriate.
>i pity you, destined to spend your life alone, because everyone else is
>flawed.
Wow, you've really spooked me now! I shudder at the fulfullment of
the voodoo curse you just tossed in my face!
---
Happy Hale-Bopp, GayFolk...this star is *our* star!
Public dialogue only, no spamming.
Hostile replies will be publicly posted.
Jason MacGuinness
> Since you hate ACT-UP so much, I know you're a hypocrite.
Excuse me. I am homosexual. I am also quite active in my community. I do
not support or endorse ANYONE'S right to force anyone else out of the
closet. Some people seem to believe that if a homosexual is still in the
closet at work, with his/her family, or otherwise less than 100% out with
the whole world, then it means that the person in question is a self-hating
homophobe. I am out of the closet. By this I mean that if someone asks, I
will tell them honestly that I am gay. I also mean that when it matters, I
will volunteer that information. When does it not matter? At work, on the
bus, in the check out line at the supermarket. There, it is absolutely no
one's business but mine. ACT-UP needs to be a little more aware of the
rights of the individuals that they out. I have every right in the world
to be myself, mind my own business, and expect people like ACT-UP to leave
me the hell alone.
I support human rights, I support the First Amendment, I even support the
Declaration of Independence. I CATEGORICALLY, AND EMPHATICALLY DO NOT
SUPPORT A BUNCH OF JOKERS TRYING TO MAKE THE WORLD ACCEPT GAYS BY FORCIBLY
OUTING PEOPLE. Who are you to make that decision for others? What gives
you the right to invade other people's privacy? Who died and made ACT-UP
God?
If it makes you feel any better about it, I also don't support the KKK.
Jason N. MacGuinness
jmacgu...@themall.net