Jesus is not God
Arif M.
Nobody can prove that Jesus was/is God. Nobody can prove that
Paradise exists. And nobody can prove that Jesus is in the Paradise.
Ricki Lee King
Arif M. wrote:
>
> Nobody can prove that Jesus was/is God. Nobody can prove that
> Paradise exists. And nobody can prove that Jesus is in the Paradise.
that's the neat thing about the discussion.
no one can proove it and no one can disproove it.
that means with a little luck, the same arguments
will be stated over and over for ever without
prooving any thing one way or the other.
Andy Hake
Arif M. wrote:
>
> Nobody can prove that Jesus was/is God. Nobody can prove that
> Paradise exists. And nobody can prove that Jesus is in the Paradise
Jesus is NOT in paradise but rather in heaven. There he will be until
the second advent. No you can't prove it, but you can perceive it.
Andy :-)
Libertarius
In <331D1C...@netlink.com.au> Andy Hake <andy...@netlink.com.au>
writes:
===>Under hypnosis/autosuggestion you can "perceive" that you see a
50-foot tall monster.
Libertarius
Larry G. Diffey
Can you prove that these things are false? Seek God, he will reveal
himself to you.
Arif M. <ma...@okstate.edu> wrote in article
<Pine.ULT.3.91.970304...@osuunx.ucc.okstate.edu>...
> Nobody can prove that Jesus was/is God. Nobody can prove that
> Paradise exists. And nobody can prove that Jesus is in the Paradise.
>
>
>
Jerry
Libertarius wrote:
>
> In <331D1C...@netlink.com.au> Andy Hake <andy...@netlink.com.au>
> writes:
> >
> >Arif M. wrote:
> >>
> >
> >Jesus is NOT in paradise but rather in heaven. There he will be until
> >the second advent. No you can't prove it, but you can perceive it.
> >
> >Andy :-)
>
> ===>Under hypnosis/autosuggestion you can "perceive" that you see a
> 50-foot tall monster.
>
> Libertarius
Comments from Jerry:
The small minds of man can argue whether Jesus is God or not God.
However, the most important thing to understand is that:
"God is not God"
Wen-King Su
In a previous article "Joseph Mitchell" <jams...@juno.com> writes:
:
;bUT i THINK IT IS EASIER TO DIE TO FIND OUT THERE ISN'T A GOD. tHEN TO DIE
:AND FIND OUT THERE IS ONE AND I AM NOT DOING RIGHT
;
:THINK ABOUT IT
And is it better to die and find out the one you believe to be God is in
fact not the real God but a powerful deceiver in disguise?
Arif M.
On 5 Mar 1997, Larry G. Diffey wrote:
> Can you prove that these things are false? Seek God, he will reveal
> himself to you.
Jesus cried loudly, "Father, Father why have you forsaken me ?"
Jesus accused his Father as having forsaken him. Just choose, which one is
God, Father or Jesus. It can not be both of them.
Joshua Moss
On 7 Mar 1997, Joseph Mitchell wrote:
> bUT i THINK IT IS EASIER TO DIE TO FIND OUT THERE ISN'T A GOD. tHEN TO DIE
> AND FIND OUT THERE IS ONE AND I AM NOT DOING RIGHT
>
> THINK ABOUT IT
This is called Pascal's wager. (1) On the one hand - whatever helps you
live right - go ahead and do that. (2) OTOH if what you mean by "doing
right" is devoting large portions of your life-energy to serving some
*particular* religion merely out of *fear* that it might be true although
there is no rational proof that it is true -- that is a waste of one's
life. (3) Furthermore, it draws one by its logic to the ugliest religion
available - since the motive is fear and loss prevention, you end up
worshipping the god with the nastiest threats about the afterlife. As
opposed to adopting the religion or world view with the clearest ideals
and ethics for a good and rational life in *this world.*
All in all, therefore, Pascal's wager, like all gambling, is a foolish
way to live. One must face one's fears rather than give in to them, and
choose the most daring and best way to live versus spend one's life
making expiation to phantoms.
Arif M.
There is no proof that any Christian's sins have been atoned by
Jesus. By the way, what is the clue that a sin has been atoned ??
Joseph Mitchell
bUT i THINK IT IS EASIER TO DIE TO FIND OUT THERE ISN'T A GOD. tHEN TO DIE
AND FIND OUT THERE IS ONE AND I AM NOT DOING RIGHT
THINK ABOUT IT
Ricki Lee King <rlk...@holli.com> wrote in article
<331C37...@holli.com>...
> Arif M. wrote:
> >
> > Nobody can prove that Jesus was/is God. Nobody can prove that
hla...@halling.org.com
Arif M. wrote:
>
> There is no proof that any Christian's sins have been atoned by
> Jesus. By the way, what is the clue that a sin has been atoned ??
I find WALMART saves me the most, n'est-ce pas?
Mike Dmytrenko
In article <Pine.PMDF.3.91.9703070...@vms.ucc.okstate.edu> "Arif M." <ma...@okstate.edu> writes:
>From: "Arif M." <ma...@okstate.edu>
>Subject: Jesus saves nobody
>Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 04:02:04 CST
> There is no proof that any Christian's sins have been atoned by
>Jesus. By the way, what is the clue that a sin has been atoned ??
<><
Mark 2:5 Jesus said to the sick of the palsy, "Son, your sins be forgiven
you."
Mark 2:7 Arif said, Why does this man speak blasphemies? Who can forgive
sins but God only?
Exactly! You are looking at God Himself !
Mark 2:9 Jesus said, Whether is it easier to say to the sick of the palsy,
your sins be forgive or to say, Arise and take up your be and walk? But
the Son of man has power on earth to forgive sins. And the man was
made whole and walked.
Complete in Him,
Michael Dmytrenko <>< (Toronto, Canada) 03/07/97 10:01:28
<http://www.inforamp.net/~mdcanada/> A 3-dimensional Website
<>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <><
Who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, angels and
authorities and powers have been subject to Him.
1 Peter 3:22
<>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <><
Mike Dmytrenko
In article <Pine.PMDF.3.91.9703070...@vms.ucc.okstate.edu> "Arif M." <ma...@okstate.edu> writes:
>From: "Arif M." <ma...@okstate.edu>
>Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 03:06:33 CST
<><
I AND MY FATHER ARE ONE !
John 10:30
THE SAME WAS IN THE BEGINNING WITH GOD !
John 1:2
Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me,
Philip? HE THAT HAS SEEN ME HAS SEEN THE FATHER. How can
you say show me the Father?
John 14:9
Search the scriptures, ... THEY TESTIFY OF ME. (were talking old
testament scriptures).
Randolph Parrish
"Arif M." <ma...@okstate.edu> wrote:
> There is no proof that any Christian's sins have been atoned by
>Jesus. By the way, what is the clue that a sin has been atoned ??
How does a Moslem know if his sins have been forgiven?
Does he know before death whether he can enter paradise or not?
William A.B. House
God is Love
Love is in Jesus
Love is in all of Us
Nature is Love's Creation
The True Law of the Heart is Love
Human Government is not God
Mans' ways are not God's Ways
Eye for Eye makes Humans Blind Hypocrits
Human Government is the Accuser of the `Human' Bretheren.
"Vengence is Mine," says God, "I will repay", Nature's Way!
Natural Karma,
Not Bill Clinton and His Karma!
-ki...@myri.com (Wen-King Su) writes:
>In a previous article "Joseph Mitchell" <jams...@juno.com> writes:
>;bUT i THINK IT IS EASIER TO DIE TO FIND OUT THERE ISN'T A GOD. tHEN
>;TO DIE AND FIND OUT THERE IS ONE AND I AM NOT DOING RIGHT
>;
>:THINK ABOUT IT
So, think about what you are doing.
1Co 11:31 For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.
Jas 4:11 Speak not evil one of another, brethren. He that speaketh
evil of [his] brother, and judgeth his brother, speaketh evil of the
law, and judgeth the law: but if thou judge the law, thou art not a
doer of the law, but a judge.
1Co 11:30 For this cause many [are] weak and sickly among you, and
many sleep.
Do you produce the fruit of oppression?
Do you promote violence against non-violent people?
Do you rely on government to enforce your religion, or education to
teach your religion and charity to walk it?
Do you believe in the `doctrines' of the Pharisees (Religious
Government Laws)?
1Jo 4:20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a
liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he
love God whom he hath not seen?
Isa 58:5,6 Is it such a fast that I have chosen? a day for a man to
afflict his soul? [is it] to bow down his head as a bulrush, and to
spread sackcloth and ashes [under him]? wilt thou call this a fast, and
an acceptable day to the LORD?
[Is] not this the fast that I have chosen? to loose the bands of
wickedness, to undo the heavy burdens, and to let the oppressed go
free, and that ye break every yoke?
>And is it better to die and find out the one you believe to be God is
>in fact not the real God but a powerful deceiver in disguise?
1Jo 3:14 We KNOW that we have passed from death unto life, because we
love the brethren. He that loveth not [his] brother abideth in death.
Educate Peace
God is Love
Seek Peace
Not War.
Vote
OREGON: PETITION AND VOTE(---------------
OCTA 99
~the new~ OREGON CANNABIS TAX ACT
http://www.pantless.com/~octa99/
THE OCTA PETITION DRIVE IS UNDERWAY
IF YOU LIVE IN OREGON
AND CAN HELP FILL OUT 10 PETITIONS IN MARCH
- JUST 15 SIGNATURES PER PETITION -
E-MAIL ME: BRUCE: wbr...@ix.netcom.com
[ NOTE: this is my personal service ]
[all snail-mail addresses will be eliminated after I mail]
[ the petition to you; we can keep in touch by e-mail. ]
E-MAIL ME: BRUCE: wbr...@ix.netcom.com
Fisher of Men
In that place between wakefulness and dreams, I found myself in
the room. There were no distinguishing features save for the one
wall covered with small indexcard files. They were like the ones in
libraries that list titles by author or subject in alphabetical
order. But these files, which stretched from floor to ceiling and
seemingly endlessly in either direction, had very different headings.
As I drew near the wall of files, the first to catch my attention was
one that read "Girls I Have Liked". I opened it and began flipping
through the cards. I quickly shut it, shocked to realize that I
recognized the names written on each one.
And then without being told, I knew exactly where I was. This
lifeless room with its small files was a crude catalog system for my
life. Here were written the actions of my every moment, big and
small, in a detail my memory couldn't match.
A sense of wonder and curiosity, coupled with horror, stirred
within me as I began randomly opening files and exploring their
content. Some brought joy and sweet memories; others a sense of
shame and regret so intense that I would look over my shoulder to see
if anyone was watching. A file named "Friends" was next to one
marked "Friends I Have Betrayed".
The titles ranged from the mundane to the outright weird. "Books
I Have Read", "Lies I Have Told", "Comfort I Have Given", "Jokes I
Have Laughed At". Some were almost hilarious in their exactness:
"Things I've Yelled at My Brothers." Others I couldn't laugh at:
"Things I Have Done in My Anger", "Things I Have Muttered Under My
Breath at My Parents". I never ceased to be surprised by the
contents. Often there were many more cards than I expected.
Sometimes fewer than I hoped.
I was overwhelmed by the sheer volume of the life I had lived.
Could it be possible that I had the time in my 20 years to write each
of these thousands or even millions of cards? But each card
confirmed this truth. Each was written in my own handwriting. Each
signed with my signature.
When I pulled out the file marked "Songs I Have Listened To", I
realized the files grew to contain their contents. The cards were
packed tightly, and yet after two or three yards, I hadn't found
the end of the file. I shut it, shamed, not so much by the quality of
music, but more by the vast amount of time I knew that file
represented.
When I came to a file marked "Lustful Thoughts", I felt a chill
run through my body. I pulled the file out only an inch, not willing
to test its size, and drew out a card. I shuddered at its detailed
content. I felt sick to think that such a moment had been recorded.
An almost animal rage broke on me. One thought dominated my
mind: "No one must ever see these cards! No one must ever see this
room! I have to destroy them!" In an insane frenzy I yanked the
file out. Its size didn't matter now. I had to empty it and burn
the cards. But as I took it at one end and began pounding it on the
floor, I could not dislodge a single card. I became desperate and
pulled out a card, only to find it as strong as steel when I tried to
tear it.
Defeated and utterly helpless, I returned the file to its slot.
Leaning my forehead against the wall, I let out a long, self-pitying
sigh. And then I saw it. The title bore "People I Have Shared the
Gospel With". The handle was brighter than those around it, newer,
almost unused. I pulled on its handle and a small box not more than
three inches long fell into my hands. I could count the cards it
contained on one hand.
And then the tears came. I began to weep. Sobs so deep that
the hurt started in my stomach and shook through me. I fell on my
knees and cried. I cried out of shame, from the overwheming shame of
it all. The rows of file shelves swirled in my tear-filled eyes. No
one must ever, ever know of this room. I must lock it up and hide
the key.
But then as I pushed away the tears, I saw Him. No, please not
Him. Not here. Oh, anyone but Jesus. I watched helplessly as He
began to open the files and read the cards. I couldn't bear to watch
His response. And in the moments I could bring myself to look at His
face, I saw a sorrow deeper than my own. He seemed to intuitively go
to the worst boxes. Why did He have to read every one?
Finally He turned and looked at me from across the room. He
looked at me with pity in His eyes. But this was a pity that didn't
anger me. I dropped my head, covered my face with my hands and began
to cry again. He walked over and put His arm around me. He could
have said so many things. But He didn't say a word. He just cried
with me.
Then He got up and walked back to the wall of files. Starting at
one end of the room, He took out a file and, one by one, began to
sign His name over mine on each card.
"No!" I shouted rushing to Him. All I could find to say was "No,
no," as I pulled the card from Him. His name shouldn't be on these
cards. But there it was, written in red so rich, so dark, so alive.
The name of Jesus covered mine. It was written with His blood.
He gently took the card back. He smiled a sad smile and began to
sign the cards. I don't think I'll ever understand how He did it so
quickly, but the next instant it seemed I heard Him close the last
file and walk back to my side. He placed His hand on my shoulder and
said, "It is finished."
I stood up, and He led me out of the room. There was no lock on
its door. There were still cards to be written.
Billy Gates
>
>
> In article <Pine.PMDF.3.91.9703070...@vms.ucc.okstate.edu> "Arif M." <ma...@okstate.edu> writes:
> >From: "Arif M." <ma...@okstate.edu>
> >Subject: Re: Jesus is not God
> >Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 03:06:33 CST
>
> >On 5 Mar 1997, Larry G. Diffey wrote:
>
> >> Can you prove that these things are false? Seek God, he will reveal
> >> himself to you.
>
> > Jesus cried loudly, "Father, Father why have you forsaken me ?"
> >Jesus accused his Father as having forsaken him. Just choose, which one is
> >God, Father or Jesus. It can not be both of them.
Obviously you are not familiar with Quantaum Physics, mathematics, or the
existence of demensions outside of the four dimensions humans can manipulate!!!
>
>
>
> <><
>
> I AND MY FATHER ARE ONE !
> John 10:30
> THE SAME WAS IN THE BEGINNING WITH GOD !
> John 1:2
> Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me,
> Philip? HE THAT HAS SEEN ME HAS SEEN THE FATHER. How can
> you say show me the Father?
> John 14:9
>
> Search the scriptures, ... THEY TESTIFY OF ME. (were talking old
> testament scriptures).
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Complete in Him,
> Michael Dmytrenko <>< (Toronto, Canada) 03/07/97 10:01:28
> <http://www.inforamp.net/~mdcanada/> A 3-dimensional Website
>
> <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <><
> Who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, angels and
> authorities and powers have been subject to Him.
>
>
> 1 Peter 3:22
> <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <><
>
> .
Fisher of Men
|~~~~~~~|
| |
| |
| |
| |
| |
|~.\\\_\~~~~~~~~~~~~~~xx~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~/_//;~|
| \ o \_ ,XXXXX), _..-~ o / |
| ~~\ ~-. XXXXX`)))), _.--~~ .-~~~ |
~~~~~~~`\ ~\~~~XXX' _/ ';)) |~~~~~~..-~ _.-~ ~~~~~~~
`\ ~~--`_\~\, ;;;\)__.---.~~~ _.-~
~-. `:;;/;; \ _..-~~
~-._ `'' /-~-~
`\ / /
| , | |
| ' / |
\/; |
;; |
`; . |
|~~~-----.....|
| \ \
| /\~~--...__ |
(| `\ __-\|
|| \_ /~ |
|) \~-' |
| | \ '
| | \ :
\ | | |
| ) ( )
\ /; /\ |
| |/ |
| | |
\ .' ||
| | | |
( | | |
| \ \ |
|| o `.)|
|`\\\\) |
| |
| |
| |
**********************
* A LOVE STORY *
**********************
One day, I woke early in the morning to watch the sunrise.
Ah the beauty of God's creation is beyond description.
As I watched, I praised God for His beautiful work.
As I sat there, I felt the Lord's presence with me.
He asked me,
"Do you love me?"
I answered,
"Of course, God! You are my Lord and Saviour!"
*******************************************
Then He asked,
"If you were physically handicapped, would you still love
me?"
I was perplexed. I looked down upon my arms, legs and the rest of my
body and wondered how many things I wouldn't; be able to do, the
things that I took for granted.
And I answered, "It would be tough Lord, but I would still love You."
*******************************************
Then the Lord said,
"If you were blind, would you still love my creation?"
How could I love something without being able to see it?
Then I thought of all the blind people in the world and how many of them
still loved God and His creation.
So I answered, "Its hard to think of it, but I would still love
you."
*******************************************
The Lord then asked me,
"If you were deaf, would you still listen to my word?"
How could I listen to anything being deaf?
Then I understood. Listening to God's Word is not merely using our ears,
but our hearts.
I answered, "It would be tough, but I would still listen to Your word."
*******************************************
The Lord then asked, "If you were mute, would you still praise My Name?"
How could I praise without a voice?
Then it occurred to me: God wants us to sing from our very heart and soul.
It never matters what we sound like.
And praising God is not always with a song, but when we are
persecuted, we give God praise with our words of thanks.
So I answered, "Though I could not physically sing, I would still praise
Your Name.
*******************************************
And the Lord asked, "Do you really love Me?"
With courage and a strong conviction, I answered boldly,
"Yes Lord! I love You because You are the one and true God!"
I thought I had answered well, but God asked,
"THEN WHY DO YOU SIN?"
I answered, "Because I am only human. I am not perfect."
"THEN WHY IN TIMES OF PEACE DO YOU STRAY THE FURTHEST? WHY ONLY IN TIMES
OF TROUBLE DO YOU PRAY THE EARNEST?"
No answers. Only tears.
The Lord continued: "Why only sing at fellowships and retreats? Why seek
Me only in times of worship? Why ask things so selfishly? Why ask things
so unfaithfully?"
The tears continued to roll down my cheeks.
"Why are you ashamed of Me? Why are you not spreading the good news? Why
in times of persecution, you cry to others when I offer My shoulder to
cry on? Why make excuses when I give you opportunities to serve in My
Name?"
I tried to answer, but there was no answer to give.
"You are blessed with life. I made you not to throw this gift away. I
have blessed you with talents to serve Me, but you continue to turn away.
I have revealed My Word to you, but you do not gain in knowledge. I
have spoken to you but your ears were closed. I have shown My
blessings to you, but your eyes were turned away. I have sent you
servants, but you sat idly by as they were pushed away. I have
heard your prayers and I have answered them all."
"DO YOU TRULY LOVE ME ?"
I could not answer. How could I? I was embarrassed beyond belief. I had
no excuse. What could I say to this? When I my heart had cried out and
the tears had flowed, I said, Please forgive me Lord. I am unworthy to
be Your child."
The Lord answered, " That is My Grace, My child."
I asked, " Then why do you continue to forgive me? Why do You love me so?"
The Lord answered,
" Because you are My creation. You are my child.
I will never abandon you.
When you cry, I will have compassion and cry with you.
When you shout with joy, I will laugh with you.
When you are down, I will encourage you.
When you fall, I will raise you up.
When you are tired, I will carry you.
I will be with you till the end of days, and I will
love you forever."
Never had I cried so hard before. How could I have been so cold? How
could I have hurt God as I had done?
XXXXX
XXXXX
XXXXX
XXXXX
XXXXXXX.-.-.XXXXXXX I asked Jesus, "How much do you love me?"
XXXXXXX`. .'XXXXXXX Jesus answered, "This much." as He stretched
XXXXXXXX ` XXXXXXXX His arms and died on the cross for me. (And
XXXXX you too!)
XXXXX
XXXXX
XXXXX
XXXXX
XXXXX
XXXXX
XXXXX
I then bowed down at the feet of Christ, my Saviour.
And for the first time, I truly prayed.
Author Unknown.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Please, if you like it forward it to others so they can benefit from
it too!
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Fisher of Men
.-~~-.--.
: )
.~ ~ -.\ /.- ~~ . "And why do you worry about clothes? See
> `. .' < how the lilies of the field grow. They
( .- -. ) do not labor or spin. Yet I tell you that
`- -.-~ `- -' ~-.- -' not even Solomon in all his
( : ) _ _ .-: splendor was dressed like
~--. : .--~ .-~ .-~ } one of these."
~-.-^-.-~ \_ .~ .-~ .~
\ \' \ '_ _ -~ - Matthew 6:28-29
`.`. //
. - ~ ~-.__`.`-.//
.-~ . - ~ }~ ~ ~-.~-.
.' .-~ .-~ :/~-.~-./:
/_~_ _ . - ~ ~-.~-._
~-.<
Fisher of Men
.
/:\
|:| "Finally, be strong in the Lord and in His mighty
|:| power. Put on the full armor of God so that you can
|:| take your stand against the devil's schemes. For
|:| __ our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but
,_|:|_, / ) against the rulers, against the authorities, against
(Oo / _I_ the powers of this dark world and against the
+\ \ || __| spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.
\ \||___| Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when
\ /.:.\-\ the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your
|.:. /-----\ ground, and after you have done everything, to stand.
|___| O | Stand firm then, with the belt of righteousness in
/ | OOOOO | place, and with your feet fitted with the readiness
|_____\ O / that comes from the gospel of peace. In addition to
| | \ \O/ all this, take up the shield of faith, with which you
| | | | can extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil
| | | | one. Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of
\ / | \___ the Spirit, which is the word of God. And pray in the
/ \ /_____\ Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers
`-' and requests. With this in mind, be alert and always
keep on praying for all the saints." -Ephesians 5:10-18
Mike Dmytrenko
In article <5fpd5u$1...@nnrp1.news.primenet.com> rbp...@primenet.com (Randolph Parrish) writes:
>From: rbp...@primenet.com (Randolph Parrish)
>Subject: Re: Jesus saves nobody
>Date: 7 Mar 1997 08:45:02 -0700
>"Arif M." <ma...@okstate.edu> wrote:
Let's see what Mohammed said about it on his death bed.
"By Allah, though I am the apostle of Allah, yet I do not know
what Allah will do to me." Vol 5:266 Al Bukhari
We know that Jesus is the Son of God. John 10:36
Mohammed knew what he was. "I am but a man like yourselves."
Surah 18:110
Jesus associated with God. Mohammed associated with demons.
"Behold, we turned towards a company of Jinns (demons),
listening to the Koran; when they stood in the presence thereof,
they said, "Listen in silence."
For the Muslims, God tells them to be taught by "People of the Book"
(Jews and Christians) if they need clarification on matters and speak
nicely to them.
Mohammed married a Christian, because there was no way he would
marry a Jew and Muslim faith didn't begin until the 6 century after
he was married.
Mohammed was a camel driver.
Mohammed had a Christian wedding, obviously he did not have
a Jewish wedding.
Another quote from Mohammed, "I wish I could be like Jesus".
Who is Allah? No the same God as the Chrisitan and Jews.
The pagan arabs worshipped 365 false gods. Allah was the prince of
them all.
Let's not forget Genesis 16:11-12 The nature of Ishmael... and he will
be a wild man and his hand will be against every man...
And this is the record,
Michael Dmytrenko <>< (Toronto, Canada) 03/07/97 12:33:08
<http://www.inforamp.net/~mdcanada/> A 3-dimensional Website
<>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <><
And I said to them, "If it is good in your sight, give me my wages; but if not,
never mind!" So they weighed out thirty shekels of silver as my wages.
Zechariah 11:12
Matthew 26:14-15
<>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <><
Fisher of Men
It takes guts to say "Jesus"
This is a true story of something that happened just a few years ago at
USC. There was a professor of philosophy there who was a deeply
committed atheist. His primary goal for one required class was to
spend the entire semester attempting to prove that God couldn't exist.
His students were always afraid to argue with him because of his impeccable
logic. For twenty years he had taught this class and no one had ever had
the courage to go against him. Sure, some had argued in class at times,
but no one had ever *really gone against him* (you'll see what I mean
later). Nobody would go against him because he had a reputation. At
the end of every semester, on the last day, he would say to the class
of 300 students, "If there is anyone here who still believes in God, stand
up!" In twenty years, nobody ever stood up. They knew what he was
going to do next. He would say, "Because anyone who believes in God is a
fool. If God existed, he could stop this piece of chalk from hitting the
ground and breaking. Such a simple task to prove he is God, and yet he
can't do it." And every year he would drop the chalk onto the tile floor
of the classroom and it could shatter into a hundred pieces. All of the
students could do nothing but stop and stare. Most of the students
were convinced that God couldn't exist. Certainly, a number of
Christians had slipped through, but for 20 years they had been too afraid to
stand up. Well, a few yaers ago there was a freshman who happened to get
enrolled in the class. He was a Christian, and had heard the stories
about this professor. He had to take the class because it was one of the
required classes for his major. And he was afraid. But for three months
that semester, he prayed every morning that he would have the courage to
stand up no matter what the professor said or what the class thought.
Nothing they said or did could ever shatter his faith, he hoped. Finally, the
day came. The professor said, "If there is anyone here who
still believes in God, stand up!" The professor, and the class of 300
people looked at him, shocked, as he stood up at the back of the room. The
professor shouted, "YOU FOOL! If nothing I have said all semester has
convinced you that God doesn't exist, then you are a fool! If God
existed, he could keep this piece of chalk from breaking when it
hit the ground!" He proceeded to drop the chalk, but as he did, it
slipped out of his fingers, off his shirt cuff, onto the pleats of his pants,
down his leg, and off his shoe. And as it hit the ground, it simply
rolled away, unbroken. The professor's jaw dropped as he stared at the
chalk. He looked up at the young man and then ran out of the lecture hall.
The young man who had stood up proceeded to walk to the front of the
room and share his faith in Jesus for the next half hour. 300 students
stayed and listened as he told of God's love for them and of his power
through Jesus. "Yet to all who received HIM, to those who believed in HIS
name, HE gave the right to become children of God - children born not of
natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of
GOD. "But HE knows the way that I take, when HE has tested me, I will
come forth as gold." Job 23:10
(Passed from one Christian to the next
as a message of encouragement and
hope.)
Stephen Bayzik
On Fri, 7 Mar 1997 03:06:33 CST, "Arif M." <ma...@okstate.edu> wrote:
>On 5 Mar 1997, Larry G. Diffey wrote:
>> Can you prove that these things are false? Seek God, he will reveal
>> himself to you.
> Jesus cried loudly, "Father, Father why have you forsaken me ?"
>Jesus accused his Father as having forsaken him. Just choose, which one is
>God, Father or Jesus. It can not be both of them.
Perhaps despite the volumneous editing and concatination of the New
Testament texts to reflect a particular Christology, this phrase may
be a carry over from an actual phrase used by the historical Joshua
ben Joseph (the Christ). It may reflect the utter dissapointment of a
man who conceived of himself as the messiach of the Jewish nation who
would be assisted by God in his mission and who found out otherwise
when the Roman authorities executed him as another possibe Zealot
leader. I don't know.
No question about it, the Christ never thought of himself as God.
k...@halling.org.com
Have you ever gone without food or shelter? I'll bet not. Stop this
foolish reliance on the bible and GET REAL !
Mike Dmytrenko
In article <Pine.ULT.3.91.97030...@osuunx.ucc.okstate.edu> "Arif M." <ma...@okstate.edu> writes:
>From: "Arif M." <ma...@okstate.edu>
>On 7 Mar 1997, Randolph Parrish wrote:
>> "Arif M." <ma...@okstate.edu> wrote:
>>
>> > There is no proof that any Christian's sins have been atoned by
>> >Jesus. By the way, what is the clue that a sin has been atoned ??
>>
>> How does a Moslem know if his sins have been forgiven?
>> Does he know before death whether he can enter paradise or not?
> That is a different story. Islam does not ask nor push people to
>believe in God by a tricky teaching such as that sin atonement. Islam
>teaches that God created the universe including the human beings. It is so
>nice when the created ones obey the Creator.
That's right Islam does not push people to believe in God. Let's ask
Mo about that!
Hey Mo!
"STRIKE TERROR into the hearts of the enemies of God and your
enemies." Surah 8:60
"FIGHT (KILL) them (non -muslims) and God will punish (torment)
them by your hands...
Surah 9:14
"I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers, SMITE ye above
their necks and SMITE their finger-tips off them.
Mo, who should be blamed?
"It is not ye who slew them; it was God." Surah 8:13-17
"I have been ordered to FIGHT with the people till they say, none
has the right to be worshipped but Allah." Al Bukhari vol 1:25
In Him,
Mike Dmytrenko <>< (Toronto, Canada) 03/08/97 00:32:04
<http://www.inforamp.net/~mdcanada/> A 3-dimensional Website
<>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <><
Behold, I am going to send My messenger, and he will clear the way before Me.
And the Lord, whom you seek, will suddenly come to His temple; and the
messenger of the covenant, in whom you delight, behold, He is coming, says the
Lord of hosts. Malachi 3:1 Isaiah 40:3 Matthew 3:1-3
<>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <><
Mike Dmytrenko
In article <Pine.ULT.3.91.97030...@osuunx.ucc.okstate.edu> "Arif M." <ma...@okstate.edu> writes:
>From: "Arif M." <ma...@okstate.edu>
>Subject: Re: Jesus saves nobody
>On 7 Mar 1997, Mike Dmytrenko wrote:
>> Let's see what Mohammed said about it on his death bed.
>> "By Allah, though I am the apostle of Allah, yet I do not know
>> what Allah will do to me." Vol 5:266 Al Bukhari
>>
>> We know that Jesus is the Son of God. John 10:36
> Who are this "we" ?
> Prophet Muhammad did and does save millions and billions people. He
>does not teach that God should be spat, tortured, and murdered just to
>deal with the human sins which were so horrendous but ridiculous. Al
>Qur'an says that Jesus is no more than a prophet. Moreover, it also
>teaches that if one does good deeds, (s)he will get the rewards. And if
>one does bad deeds, (s)he will get the punishment. It is so simple. No
>trick, no gimmick.
Jesus taught forgiveness. Matthew 5:38, 39
Mohammed taught revenge.
"If anyone transgress the prohibition against you, transgress ye
likewise against him." Surah 2:194
Jesus' words never change. "Heaven and earth shall pass away, but
my words shall not pass away."
The Korans' words change. "When we substitute one revelation for
another - and God know best what He reveals." Sur 16:101
JESUS CAME TO SAVE LIVES
"FOR THE SOM OF MAN IS NOT COME TO DESTROY MEN'S
LIVES, BUT TO SAVE THEM."
Mohammed was called to destroy lives. Millions of them.
"Say to the desert Arabs who lagged behind: Ye shall be
summoned to fight against a people given to vehement war:
then shall ye fight, or they shall submit. Then if ye show
obedience, God will grant ye a goodly reward, but if ye turn
as ye did before, He iwll punish you with a grievous penalty." Sur 48:16
JESUS IS THE LIFE, AND HIS FOLLOWERS WILL LIVE. JOHN 11:25
MOHAMMED DIED, AND HIS FOLLOWERS WILL DIE ALSO.
"Truly thou wilt die, and truly they too will die." Sur 39:30
MO SAID, THE SWORD IS THE KEY TO HEAVEN. VOL 4:73
HOLY WAR (JIHAD) IS A GUARANTEE OF HEAVEN. VOL 1:35
JESUS SAID, "I AM THE WAY !"
그恕嗚
>In article <Pine.ULT.3.91.97030...@osuunx.ucc.okstate.edu>
>"Arif M." <ma...@okstate.edu> writes:
>>From: "Arif M." <ma...@okstate.edu>
>>Subject: Re: Jesus saves nobody
>>Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 18:34:31 -0600
>>On 7 Mar 1997, Mike Dmytrenko wrote:
>>> Let's see what Mohammed said about it on his death bed.
>>> "By Allah, though I am the apostle of Allah, yet I do not know
>>> what Allah will do to me." Vol 5:266 Al Bukhari
>>>
>>> We know that Jesus is the Son of God. John 10:36
>> Who are this "we" ?
>> Prophet Muhammad did and does save millions and billions people. He
>>does not teach that God should be spat, tortured, and murdered just to
>>deal with the human sins which were so horrendous but ridiculous. Al
>>Qur'an says that Jesus is no more than a prophet. Moreover, it also
>>teaches that if one does good deeds, (s)he will get the rewards. And if
>>one does bad deeds, (s)he will get the punishment. It is so simple. No
>>trick, no gimmick.
No he had much rather seen millions people spat, tortured, and murdered just for
not wanting to be forced to follow him and his false religion
Prophet Muhammad fronted a religion of hate and violence. It is a religion of
violence and the Muslims in many parts of the world still carry on this
tradition and are some of the most VIOLENT people of the face of the earth.
They are slaughtering 1000's of people today. It has been reported world wide
but for some reason the US newsproviders have played this down, that in Saudi
Arabia and some of the other nations in that area, they are slaughtering entire
villages of christians and other religions..killing without mercy children,
women, men and some more children, even crucifying people! The muslim religion
was born of violence, spread with violence, and live for violence regardless of
what you may say about these wonderful people....they for the most part are the
most dangerous to world peace and are brutal in their savagery! You think that
by strapping bombs on themselves and blowing up 100's of innocent people just
about on a daily basis is a religion. This is lunacy.....and I've read
interviews with some of them and they plainly state that they would rather cut
thier own son's or daughters throats than to have them follow another religious
persuasion....And you call this religion!!! This is terrorism and have you ever
noticed that just about every terrorist you see is a muslim, moslem or whatever
you want to call it today...PLEASE, and once the most dangerous people in the
world because of their hatred and their ability to be convinced if they strap a
bomb on themselves and go out and kill hundreds of innocent children, women and
men that this is an E ticket ride to heaven. Please...you musta had the brown
acid at Woodstock
ur...@aol.com
Most religionists are mass murderers, full of hatred and indignation for
anyone outside their group. You are a laughing stalk when you preach
peace and love!
Donald R. Smith
Why is the faith of another bother you?
Libertarius
In <5fr61s$q...@news.inforamp.net> mdca...@inforamp.net (Mike
Dmytrenko) writes:
>
>In article
<Pine.ULT.3.91.97030...@osuunx.ucc.okstate.edu> "Arif
M." <ma...@okstate.edu> writes:
>>From: "Arif M." <ma...@okstate.edu>
>>Subject: Re: Jesus saves nobody
>>Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 18:34:31 -0600
>
>>On 7 Mar 1997, Mike Dmytrenko wrote:
>
>>> Let's see what Mohammed said about it on his death bed.
>>> "By Allah, though I am the apostle of Allah, yet I do not know
>>> what Allah will do to me." Vol 5:266 Al Bukhari
>>>
>>> We know that Jesus is the Son of God. John 10:36
>
>> Who are this "we" ?
>> Prophet Muhammad did and does save millions and billions people.
He
>>does not teach that God should be spat, tortured, and murdered just
to
>>deal with the human sins which were so horrendous but ridiculous. Al
>>Qur'an says that Jesus is no more than a prophet. Moreover, it also
>>teaches that if one does good deeds, (s)he will get the rewards. And
if
>>one does bad deeds, (s)he will get the punishment. It is so simple.
No
>>trick, no gimmick.
>
>
>Mohammed taught revenge.
>"If anyone transgress the prohibition against you, transgress ye
>likewise against him." Surah 2:194
JESUS CAME TO SAVE LIVES
>"FOR THE SOM OF MAN IS NOT COME TO DESTROY MEN'S
>LIVES, BUT TO SAVE THEM."
>
>Mohammed was called to destroy lives. Millions of them.
>"Say to the desert Arabs who lagged behind: Ye shall be
>summoned to fight against a people given to vehement war:
>then shall ye fight, or they shall submit. Then if ye show
>obedience, God will grant ye a goodly reward, but if ye turn
>as ye did before, He iwll punish you with a grievous penalty." Sur
48:16
>
===>That is the FALSE image of Jesus, the goody-two-shoes pacifist
of the Herodian Saul/Pauland his Gentile Christians. But even
their gospels contradict this image:
Jesus (supposedly) said: "Think not that I am come to send
peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
For I am come to set a man at variance against his father,
and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law
against her mother in law. (Mat. 10:34-35)
AND "he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and
buy one." (Luke 22:36)
>
>MOHAMMED DIED, AND HIS FOLLOWERS WILL DIE ALSO.
>"Truly thou wilt die, and truly they too will die." Sur 39:30
===>Jesus also died, executed as a revolutionary leader against the
Imperial Roman rulers. And even though just like Elvis, many had
supposedly seen him after this, they had ALL died, though
allegedly Jesus told them they will not die until he
returns from "heaven".
Libertarius
Libertarius
In <4584.7006...@gulf.net> 그恕嗚 <zi...@gulf.net> writes:
>
>>In article
<Pine.ULT.3.91.97030...@osuunx.ucc.okstate.edu>
>>"Arif M." <ma...@okstate.edu> writes:
>>>From: "Arif M." <ma...@okstate.edu>
>>>Subject: Re: Jesus saves nobody
>>>Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 18:34:31 -0600
>
>>>On 7 Mar 1997, Mike Dmytrenko wrote:
>
>>>> Let's see what Mohammed said about it on his death bed.
>>>> "By Allah, though I am the apostle of Allah, yet I do not know
>>>> what Allah will do to me." Vol 5:266 Al Bukhari
>>>>
>>>> We know that Jesus is the Son of God. John 10:36
>
>>> Who are this "we" ?
>>> Prophet Muhammad did and does save millions and billions
people. He
>>>does not teach that God should be spat, tortured, and murdered just
to
>>>deal with the human sins which were so horrendous but ridiculous. Al
>>>Qur'an says that Jesus is no more than a prophet. Moreover, it also
>>>teaches that if one does good deeds, (s)he will get the rewards. And
if
>>>one does bad deeds, (s)he will get the punishment. It is so simple.
No
>>>trick, no gimmick.
>
the Inquisition, the wars between Orthodox and Catholic, the
torture and burning of "heretics", the witch hunts, etc.,
also of Bosnia, Norther Ireland, .....
of the entire history of Christianity!
Ignorance is bliss. Continue living in your "virtual reality".
Libertarius
Jonathan M. Sperry
Libertarius (att...@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
: ===>Jesus also died, executed as a revolutionary leader against the
: Imperial Roman rulers. And even though just like Elvis, many had
: supposedly seen him after this, they had ALL died, though
: allegedly Jesus told them they will not die until he
: returns from "heaven".
Surely you're talking about Matt 16:28, Mark 9:1, and Luke 9:27, when
Jesus says some of thsoe he was talking to would not die before seeing
the Kingdom of God coming in power or the Son of Man coming in his
kingdom. You just don't realize that that DID happen before some of them
died. It happened in Acts 1 and 2, when the Kingdom of God, the Lord's
church, came to power with the teaching of Peter and the baptizing of
thousands of people.
--
Jonathan M. Sperry | How good and pleasant it is when
e-mail: jsp...@prairienet.org -+- brothers live together in unity!
homepage: http://www.prairienet.org/ | Psalm 133:1
~jsperry/homepage.html |
Libertarius
In <5fs8bh$q...@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> jsp...@prairienet.org (Jonathan M.
Sperry) writes:
>
>Libertarius (att...@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
>: ===>Jesus also died, executed as a revolutionary leader against the
>: Imperial Roman rulers. And even though just like Elvis, many
had
>: supposedly seen him after this, they had ALL died, though
>: allegedly Jesus told them they will not die until he
>: returns from "heaven".
>
>Surely you're talking about Matt 16:28, Mark 9:1, and Luke 9:27, when
>Jesus says some of thsoe he was talking to would not die before seeing
>the Kingdom of God coming in power or the Son of Man coming in his
>kingdom. You just don't realize that that DID happen before some of
them
>died. It happened in Acts 1 and 2, when the Kingdom of God, the
Lord's
>church, came to power with the teaching of Peter and the baptizing of
>thousands of people.
>
>
===>Believe what you wish, but the "Kingdom of God" meant a
THEOCRACY, with a MESSIANIC KING ruling from Jerusalem,
with the Jewish people freed of all foreign domination,
and the kings of the earth going to Jerusalem to worship
the one God of Israel (not some "trinity" invented by
paganized "Christians" who made a God out of Jesus).
Libertarius
Libertarius
In <5fs8bh$q...@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> jsp...@prairienet.org (Jonathan M.
Sperry) writes:
>
>Libertarius (att...@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
>: ===>Jesus also died, executed as a revolutionary leader against the
>: Imperial Roman rulers. And even though just like Elvis, many
had
>: supposedly seen him after this, they had ALL died, though
>: allegedly Jesus told them they will not die until he
>: returns from "heaven".
>
>Surely you're talking about Matt 16:28, Mark 9:1, and Luke 9:27, when
>Jesus says some of thsoe he was talking to would not die before seeing
>the Kingdom of God coming in power or the Son of Man coming in his
>kingdom. You just don't realize that that DID happen before some of
them
>died. It happened in Acts 1 and 2, when the Kingdom of God, the
Lord's
>church, came to power with the teaching of Peter and the baptizing of
>thousands of people.
>
===>You are confusing the "Kingdom of God" with the Church.
That's silly! 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 tells you what
people believed in those early days of Christianity.
"Then we which are alive"...Paul expected that he would
still be living at the time when "the Lord himself shall
descend...".
Libertarius
Libertarius
Gabriel
On Tue, 4 Mar 1997 02:19:49 -0600, "Arif M." <ma...@okstate.edu>
wrote:
> Nobody can prove that Jesus was/is God. Nobody can prove that
>Paradise exists. And nobody can prove that Jesus is in the Paradise.
I will answer this the same way as I did above. I am not now (nor have
I ever been) God. As a "proof" of the existence of Paradise, I find
having been there (between lifetimes) to be adequate proof for me. And
of course I'm not there right now. I haven't been there (except to
"visit") for the last 50 years. Right now, I'm on Earth incarnate in
this silly human costume.
And to think that I actually *volunteered* for this! Go figure!
----
Peace, Light & Love
Gabriel, Archangel
will...@interaccess.com
Your faith bothers us because we are nervous when psychopathic
principles are accepted as reality.
Donald R. Smith
Snip
> > > Have you ever gone without food or shelter? I'll bet not. Stop this
> > > foolish reliance on the bible and GET REAL !
> >
> > Why is the faith of another bother you?
>
> Your faith bothers us because we are nervous when psychopathic
> principles are accepted as reality.
Psychopath: One suffering from emotional disorders with amoral and
asocial behavior.
I see no amoral or asocial behavior here. Perhaps you just feel
threatned by things that are beyond your comprehension.
Miriam Wolfe
In article <wrf3-ya02408000R...@news.mindspring.com>,
wr...@mindspring.com (Bob Felts) wrote:
@In article
@<Pine.ULT.3.91.97030...@osuunx.ucc.okstate.edu>, "Arif M."
@<ma...@okstate.edu> wrote:
@
@| On 7 Mar 1997, Mike Dmytrenko wrote:
@|
@| > Let's see what Mohammed said about it on his death bed.
@| > "By Allah, though I am the apostle of Allah, yet I do not know
@| > what Allah will do to me." Vol 5:266 Al Bukhari
@| >
@| > We know that Jesus is the Son of God. John 10:36
@|
@| Who are this "we" ?
@| Prophet Muhammad did and does save millions and billions people. He
@| does not teach that God should be spat, tortured, and murdered just to
@| deal with the human sins which were so horrendous but ridiculous. Al
@| Qur'an says that Jesus is no more than a prophet. Moreover, it also
@| teaches that if one does good deeds, (s)he will get the rewards. And if
@| one does bad deeds, (s)he will get the punishment. It is so simple. No
@| trick, no gimmick.
@
@Christianity says the *exact same thing*. I refer you to Romans,
@chapter 2:
@
@ For he will repay according to each one's deeds:
@ to those who by patiently doing good seek for glory and
@ honor and immortality, he will give eternal life;
@ while for those who are self-seeking and who obey not the
@ truth but wickedness, there will be wrath and fury.
@ There will be anguish and distress for everyone who does
@ evil, the Jew first and also the Gentile,
@ but glory and honor and peace for everyone who does good,
@ the Jew first and also the Gentile.
@
@So, why is Islam any better in this regard than Christianity?
and if they say the same thing, then xianity is not any better than Islam.
*************************************************
Eliyahu ridiculed them, and he said,
"Cry out in a loud voice, for he is a 'god'!
Perhaps he is conversing,
or pursuing,
or reliving himself;
perhaps he is asleep and he will awaken!"
I Kings 18
melk...@interramp.com
Oh I used to be a Jesus freak for a couple of years. Then I matured and
left those childish things behind. Maybe the person writing above meant
psychotic, not psychopathic.
Jonathan M. Sperry
Libertarius (att...@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
: ===>Believe what you wish, but the "Kingdom of God" meant a
: THEOCRACY, with a MESSIANIC KING ruling from Jerusalem,
: with the Jewish people freed of all foreign domination,
: and the kings of the earth going to Jerusalem to worship
: the one God of Israel (not some "trinity" invented by
: paganized "Christians" who made a God out of Jesus).
Well, this is what I'm taught:
"The kingdom fo God does not come with your careful observation, nor will
people say 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the kingom of God is
within you." [Luke 17:20-21]
The letter to the Romans speaks of the kingdom of God at a matter of
righteousness, peace, and joy in the Holy Spirit (14:17). And in
Colossians, Paul speaks of his friends in the church as "fellow workers
for the kingdom of God" (4:11).
Possibly, there's something else in the Jewish faith that fits your
description above, but from a quick look through a Bible concordance,
it's not the "kingdom of God" here on earth.
gene
Libertarius
===>What is the point of posting this under two different names?
I already replied to your post you submitted under a different
name. -- L.
Libertarius
In <5ft01f$f...@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> jsp...@prairienet.org (Jonathan M.
Sperry) writes:
>
>Libertarius (att...@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
>: ===>Believe what you wish, but the "Kingdom of God" meant a
>: THEOCRACY, with a MESSIANIC KING ruling from Jerusalem,
>: with the Jewish people freed of all foreign domination,
>: and the kings of the earth going to Jerusalem to worship
>: the one God of Israel (not some "trinity" invented by
>: paganized "Christians" who made a God out of Jesus).
>
>Well, this is what I'm taught:
>"The kingdom fo God does not come with your careful observation, nor
will
>people say 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the kingom of God
is
>within you." [Luke 17:20-21]
>
>The letter to the Romans speaks of the kingdom of God at a matter of
>righteousness, peace, and joy in the Holy Spirit (14:17). And in
>Colossians, Paul speaks of his friends in the church as "fellow
workers
>for the kingdom of God" (4:11).
>
>Possibly, there's something else in the Jewish faith that fits your
>description above, but from a quick look through a Bible concordance,
>it's not the "kingdom of God" here on earth.
>
Zechariah, which depicts the kingdom of God as an earthly realm,
based in Jerusalem.
Romans was written by Paul, who was a traitor to the messianic
liberation movement. That movement was an extreme nationalism,
and Jesus was one of its heroes, along with Jesus's brother
James, that famous Judas the Galilean, and many others,
while Paul was an internationalist and universalist who insisted
on access to the Jewish God for his pagan friends.
Libertarius
Donald R. Smith
he means.
Ezekiel Krahlin
On Fri, 7 Mar 1997 11:37:09 -0600, Fisher of Men
<spur...@lonestar.jpl.utsa.edu> said:
>I then bowed down at the feet of Christ, my Saviour.
>And for the first time, I truly prayed.
>
> Author Unknown.
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>Please, if you like it forward it to others so they can benefit from
>it too!
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
I don't like. It's smug and oppressive to people with other belief
systems...including Christians who are progressive and nonjudgmental,
and respectful toward all religions (including atheism) as equally
valid. And that's what I am. I have met many atheists and agnostics
who are far more compassionate and wise than many lowbrow Christians.
---
(Hail, Athenia...brave new nation!)
Please keep our dialogues public; private mail by request only.
Hostile private replies will be re-posted in the public arena.
그恕嗚
>>
>>MOHAMMED DIED, AND HIS FOLLOWERS WILL DIE ALSO.
>>"Truly thou wilt die, and truly they too will die." Sur 39:30
>===>Jesus also died, executed as a revolutionary leader against the
> Imperial Roman rulers. And even though just like Elvis, many had
> supposedly seen him after this, they had ALL died, though
> allegedly Jesus told them they will not die until he
> returns from "heaven".
> Libertarius
You are blatantly misquoting Jesus here...he DID NOT tell these people that they
would not die.....he was talking about the generation that would exist after the
times of the gentiles....after Israel had been destroyed and gone for over 2
thousand years. He had just talked about..... when you see the fig tree (Israel)
bloom (become a nation again after this "time of the gentiles")...and that many
of these people would STILL be alive at his second comming........
그恕嗚
>In <5fr61s$q...@news.inforamp.net> mdca...@inforamp.net (Mike
>Dmytrenko) writes:
>>
>>In article
><Pine.ULT.3.91.97030...@osuunx.ucc.okstate.edu> "Arif
>M." <ma...@okstate.edu> writes:
>>>From: "Arif M." <ma...@okstate.edu>
>>>Subject: Re: Jesus saves nobody
>>>Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 18:34:31 -0600
>>
>>
>>>> Let's see what Mohammed said about it on his death bed.
>>>>
>>
>He
>to
>if
>No
>>
bha...@geist.org
Facts Vs Feelings wrote:
>
> On Fri, 7 Mar 1997 18:14:40 -0600, "Arif M." <ma...@okstate.edu>,
> eructated with:
>
> :::On 7 Mar 1997, Randolph Parrish wrote:
> :::
> :::> "Arif M." <ma...@okstate.edu> wrote:
> :::>
> :::> > There is no proof that any Christian's sins have been atoned by
> :::> >Jesus. By the way, what is the clue that a sin has been atoned ??
> :::>
> :::> How does a Moslem know if his sins have been forgiven?
> :::> Does he know before death whether he can enter paradise or not?
> :::
> ::: That is a different story. Islam does not ask nor push people to
> :::believe in God by a tricky teaching such as that sin atonement. Islam
> :::teaches that God created the universe including the human beings. It is so
> :::nice when the created ones obey the Creator.
>
> of Islam. Islam also condones cowardly terrorist acts.
>
> How noble.
>
> FVF
> -----
> "How fortunate it is for us that it is somewhat
> unnatural for a human being to obey. Universal
> obedience is universal stagnation; disobedience
> is one of the conditions of progress."
> ---Robert Ingersoll
Threaten a Christian nation and watch out for their version of a holy
war!!!!
Libertarius
In <893.7007...@gulf.net> 그恕嗚 <zi...@gulf.net> writes:
>
>>>
>>>MOHAMMED DIED, AND HIS FOLLOWERS WILL DIE ALSO.
>>>"Truly thou wilt die, and truly they too will die." Sur 39:30
>
>>===>Jesus also died, executed as a revolutionary leader against the
>> Imperial Roman rulers. And even though just like Elvis, many had
>> supposedly seen him after this, they had ALL died, though
>> allegedly Jesus told them they will not die until he
>> returns from "heaven".
>
>> Libertarius
>
>You are blatantly misquoting Jesus here...he DID NOT tell these people
that they
>would not die.....he was talking about the generation that would exist
after the
>times of the gentiles....after Israel had been destroyed and gone for
over 2
>thousand years. He had just talked about..... when you see the fig
tree (Israel)
>bloom (become a nation again after this "time of the gentiles")...and
that many
>of these people would STILL be alive at his second comming........
>
second coming and resurrection as "we which are alive"?
Bob Felts
In article <332667d6...@news.alt.net>, * wrote:
| On Fri, 07 Mar 1997 21:07:08 -0500, wr...@mindspring.com (Bob Felts),
| eructated with:
|
| :::In article
| :::<Pine.ULT.3.91.97030...@osuunx.ucc.okstate.edu>, "Arif M."
| :::<ma...@okstate.edu> wrote:
| :::
| :::| On 7 Mar 1997, Randolph Parrish wrote:
| :::|
| :::| > "Arif M." <ma...@okstate.edu> wrote:
| :::| >
| :::| > > There is no proof that any Christian's sins have been atoned by
| :::| > >Jesus. By the way, what is the clue that a sin has been atoned ??
| :::| >
| :::| > How does a Moslem know if his sins have been forgiven?
| :::| > Does he know before death whether he can enter paradise or not?
| :::|
| :::| That is a different story. Islam does not ask nor push people to
| :::| believe in God by a tricky teaching such as that sin atonement. Islam
| :::| teaches that God created the universe including the human beings. It
is so
| :::| nice when the created ones obey the Creator.
| :::
| :::But you don't, you know. Not if you're honest with yourself
|
| Isn't it nice to know that only YOU know the secrets of the universe?
Did you, by any chance, bother reading your own .sig? It happens
to say pretty much the same thing.
So now that's three of us who know the secrets of the universe
(you, me, and Ingersoll) ;-)
[...]
|
| FVF
| -----
| "How fortunate it is for us that it is somewhat
| unnatural for a human being to obey. Universal
| obedience is universal stagnation; disobedience
| is one of the conditions of progress."
| ---Robert Ingersoll
__|_______ Through His love and through a ram,
| He saved the son of Abraham...
| Bob Felts But God demonstrates His own love for us,
| wr...@mindspring.com in that while we were still sinners,
| http://www.mindspring.com/~wrf3 Christ died for us.
그恕嗚
>:::In article
>:::<Pine.ULT.3.91.97030...@osuunx.ucc.okstate.edu>, "Arif
>:::M."
>:::<ma...@okstate.edu> wrote:
>:::
>:::| On 7 Mar 1997, Randolph Parrish wrote:
>:::|
>:::| > "Arif M." <ma...@okstate.edu> wrote:
>:::| >
>:::| > > There is no proof that any Christian's sins have been atoned by
>:::| > >Jesus. By the way, what is the clue that a sin has been atoned ??
>:::| >
>:::| > How does a Moslem know if his sins have been forgiven?
>:::| > Does he know before death whether he can enter paradise or not?
>:::|
>:::| That is a different story. Islam does not ask nor push people to
>:::| believe in God by a tricky teaching such as that sin atonement. Islam
>:::| teaches that God created the universe including the human beings. It is
>:::| so nice when the created ones obey the Creator.
>:::
>:::But you don't, you know. Not if you're honest with yourself
>Isn't it nice to know that only YOU know the secrets of the universe?
>All those other idiots, the ones that think like YOU, those atheists,
>agnostics, and all those morons that believe all that foreign
>religious junk, just kinda gives you a tingling sensation up and down
>your spine, knowing how 'special' you are.
>And I'll try to make sure there is a place saved for you in the
>Special Olympics. Your category: coordinating your left and right eye
>blinks.
>I'll be rooting for ya!
The IDIOT continues to speak!
그恕嗚
>In article <332667d6...@news.alt.net>, * wrote:
>| On Fri, 07 Mar 1997 21:07:08 -0500, wr...@mindspring.com (Bob Felts),
>| eructated with:
>|
>| :::In article
>| :::<Pine.ULT.3.91.97030...@osuunx.ucc.okstate.edu>, "Arif
>| :::M."
>| :::<ma...@okstate.edu> wrote:
>| :::
>| :::| On 7 Mar 1997, Randolph Parrish wrote:
>| :::|
>| :::| > "Arif M." <ma...@okstate.edu> wrote:
>| :::| >
>| :::| > > There is no proof that any Christian's sins have been atoned
>| :::| > > by
>| :::| > >Jesus. By the way, what is the clue that a sin has been atoned ??
>| :::| >
>| :::| > How does a Moslem know if his sins have been forgiven?
>| :::| > Does he know before death whether he can enter paradise or not?
>| :::|
>| :::| That is a different story. Islam does not ask nor push people to
>| :::| believe in God by a tricky teaching such as that sin atonement. Islam
>| :::| teaches that God created the universe including the human beings. It
>is so
>| :::| nice when the created ones obey the Creator.
>| :::
>| :::But you don't, you know. Not if you're honest with yourself
>|
>| Isn't it nice to know that only YOU know the secrets of the universe?
>Did you, by any chance, bother reading your own .sig? It happens
>to say pretty much the same thing.
>So now that's three of us who know the secrets of the universe
>(you, me, and Ingersoll) ;-)
Not the IDIOT attempts stand up comedy!
>[...]
>|
>| FVF
>| -----
>| "How fortunate it is for us that it is somewhat
>| unnatural for a human being to obey. Universal
>| obedience is universal stagnation; disobedience
>| is one of the conditions of progress."
>| ---Robert Ingersoll
>__|_______ Through His love and through a ram,
그恕嗚
And just where are you getting this quote from?
그恕嗚
>On 08 Mar 97 04:32:29 -0600, 그恕嗚 <zi...@gulf.net>, eructated with:
>:::>In article
>:::><Pine.ULT.3.91.97030...@osuunx.ucc.okstate.edu> "Arif
>:::>M." <ma...@okstate.edu> writes:
>:::>>From: "Arif M." <ma...@okstate.edu>
>:::>>Subject: Re: Jesus saves nobody
>:::>>Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 18:34:31 -0600
>:::
>:::>>On 7 Mar 1997, Mike Dmytrenko wrote:
>:::
>:::>>> Let's see what Mohammed said about it on his death bed.
>:::>>> "By Allah, though I am the apostle of Allah, yet I do not know
>:::>>> what Allah will do to me." Vol 5:266 Al Bukhari
>:::>>>
>:::>>> We know that Jesus is the Son of God. John 10:36
>:::
>:::>> Who are this "we" ?
>:::>> Prophet Muhammad did and does save millions and billions people. He
>:::>>does not teach that God should be spat, tortured, and murdered just to
>:::>>deal with the human sins which were so horrendous but ridiculous. Al
>:::>>Qur'an says that Jesus is no more than a prophet. Moreover, it also
>:::>>teaches that if one does good deeds, (s)he will get the rewards. And if
>:::>>one does bad deeds, (s)he will get the punishment. It is so simple. No
>:::>>trick, no gimmick.
>:::
>:::No he had much rather seen millions people spat, tortured, and murdered
>:::just for not wanting to be forced to follow him and his false religion
>:::
>:::Prophet Muhammad fronted a religion of hate and violence. It is a religion
>:::of violence and the Muslims in many parts of the world still carry on this
>:::tradition and are some of the most VIOLENT people of the face of the
>:::earth.
>You're quite the hypocrite. Your religion is more subtle TODAY, but
>just as bloody as any 3rd world religion, YESTERDAY. And remember,
>this religion is an extension of YOURS.
>How can it not be bloody. They haven't been around as long as yours
>so they have a bit of catching up to do.
>:::They are slaughtering 1000's of people today. It has been reported world
>:::wide but for some reason the US newsproviders have played this down, that
>:::in Saudi Arabia and some of the other nations in that area, they are
>:::slaughtering entire villages of christians and other religions..killing
>:::without mercy children, women, men and some more children, even crucifying
>:::people! The muslim religion was born of violence, spread with violence,
>:::and live for violence regardless of what you may say about these wonderful
>:::people....they for the most part are the most dangerous to world peace and
>:::are brutal in their savagery! You think that by strapping bombs on
>:::themselves and blowing up 100's of innocent people just about on a daily
>:::basis is a religion. This is lunacy.....and I've read
>Lessee, this is SO different then idiots for christ blowing away
>buildings, killing Drs, hanging those of a different color, etc.
>:::interviews with some of them and they plainly state that they would rather
>:::cut thier own son's or daughters throats than to have them follow another
>:::religious persuasion....And you call this religion!!! This is terrorism
>:::and have you ever noticed that just about every terrorist you see is a
>:::muslim, moslem or whatever you want to call it today...PLEASE, and once
>:::the most dangerous people in the
>So what the hell do you call being threatened with eternal damnation
>if you don't follow christ? You are a blinded by your own self
>importance, a blatant hypocrite.
You are a poster child for stupidity! Threatening someone with eternal damnation
should not have any effect on someone who does not believe it exist...like you.
However if someone were to torture you then crucify you leaving you there to
die...then whether you believed it or not you would still be in deep trouble.
What I find most amusing about you is the fact that you somehow in your twisted
mind think that you are some kind of intellectual! It makes me laugh so hard it
hurts......you are a funny guy!
Gerald Caldwell
Where on earth did you get your information. Where did Jesus say those
things? Chapter and verse?
Libertarius
In <893.7007...@gulf.net 그恕嗚 <zi...@gulf.net writes:
MOHAMMED DIED, AND HIS FOLLOWERS WILL DIE ALSO.
"Truly thou wilt die, and truly they too will die." Sur 39:30
===Jesus also died, executed as a revolutionary leader against the
Imperial Roman rulers. And even though just like Elvis, many had
supposedly seen him after this, they had ALL died, though
allegedly Jesus told them they will not die until he
returns from "heaven".
Libertarius
===That is EXACTLY why Paul, writing long before the gospels,
describes the second coming and resurrection as
"we which are alive"?
And just where are you getting this quote from?
===Where did you learn about the bible? Do you ever actually READ it?
I mean with an OPEN mind?
For the Lord himself will descend from heaven
with a shout, with the voice of the archangel,
and with the trump of God:
AND THE DEAD IN CHRIST SHALL RISE FIRST:
THEN WE WHICH ARE ALIVE AND REMAIN SHALL BE CAUGHT UP
together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air:
and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 (Caps are my emphasis).
Larry Brown
LB: Wonder why it is that any would pray after finding what could
only be answer after that very thing. Eh. Nobudy's business I 'spose.
Does have that redeeming value of a contriteness, tho. And so if
they would only stand and walk on their own with what is given them,
'twould be a miracle of kind indeed.
Larry Brown
Facts Vs Feelings wrote:
>
> On Sun, 09 Mar 1997 07:03:21 GMT, Helleni...@Athenia.com (Ezekiel
> Krahlin), eructated with:
>
> :::On Fri, 7 Mar 1997 11:37:09 -0600, Fisher of Men
> :::<spur...@lonestar.jpl.utsa.edu> said:
> :::
> :::>I then bowed down at the feet of Christ, my Saviour.
> :::>And for the first time, I truly prayed.
> :::>
> :::> Author Unknown.
> :::>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
> :::>Please, if you like it forward it to others so they can benefit from
> :::>it too!
> :::>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
> :::
> :::I don't like. It's smug and oppressive to people with other belief
> :::systems...including Christians who are progressive and nonjudgmental,
> :::and respectful toward all religions (including atheism) as equally
> :::valid. And that's what I am. I have met many atheists and agnostics
> :::who are far more compassionate and wise than many lowbrow Christians.
>
> Kinda falls under 'worship of false idols', doesn't it? ;)
>
> I would guess that you believe in one form or another of the great
> mother?
LB: Great mother, great father...depends on what one means, I'd say.
You think that you're something more than your own person, your own
God, both male and female perhaps?
goblin
Fisher of Men wrote:
>
> It takes guts to say "Jesus"
>
> This is a true story of something that happened just a few years ago at
> USC. There was a professor of philosophy there who was a deeply
> committed atheist. His primary goal for one required class was to
> spend the entire semester attempting to prove that God couldn't exist.
> His students were always afraid to argue with him because of his impeccable
> logic. For twenty years he had taught this class and no one had ever had
> the courage to go against him. Sure, some had argued in class at times,
> but no one had ever *really gone against him* (you'll see what I mean
> later). Nobody would go against him because he had a reputation. At
> the end of every semester, on the last day, he would say to the class
> of 300 students, "If there is anyone here who still believes in God, stand
> up!" In twenty years, nobody ever stood up. They knew what he was
> going to do next. He would say, "Because anyone who believes in God is a
> fool. If God existed, he could stop this piece of chalk from hitting the
> ground and breaking. Such a simple task to prove he is God, and yet he
> can't do it." And every year he would drop the chalk onto the tile floor
> of the classroom and it could shatter into a hundred pieces. All of the
> students could do nothing but stop and stare. Most of the students
> were convinced that God couldn't exist. Certainly, a number of
> Christians had slipped through, but for 20 years they had been too afraid to
> stand up. Well, a few yaers ago there was a freshman who happened to get
> enrolled in the class. He was a Christian, and had heard the stories
> about this professor. He had to take the class because it was one of the
> required classes for his major. And he was afraid. But for three months
> that semester, he prayed every morning that he would have the courage to
> stand up no matter what the professor said or what the class thought.
> Nothing they said or did could ever shatter his faith, he hoped. Finally, the
> day came. The professor said, "If there is anyone here who
> still believes in God, stand up!" The professor, and the class of 300
> people looked at him, shocked, as he stood up at the back of the room. The
> professor shouted, "YOU FOOL! If nothing I have said all semester has
> convinced you that God doesn't exist, then you are a fool! If God
> existed, he could keep this piece of chalk from breaking when it
> hit the ground!" He proceeded to drop the chalk, but as he did, it
> slipped out of his fingers, off his shirt cuff, onto the pleats of his pants,
> down his leg, and off his shoe. And as it hit the ground, it simply
> rolled away, unbroken. The professor's jaw dropped as he stared at the
> chalk. He looked up at the young man and then ran out of the lecture hall.
> The young man who had stood up proceeded to walk to the front of the
> room and share his faith in Jesus for the next half hour. 300 students
> stayed and listened as he told of God's love for them and of his power
> through Jesus. "Yet to all who received HIM, to those who believed in HIS
> name, HE gave the right to become children of God - children born not of
> natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of
> GOD. "But HE knows the way that I take, when HE has tested me, I will
> come forth as gold." Job 23:10
>
> (Passed from one Christian to the next
> as a message of encouragement and
> hope.)
And it takes an idiot to believe that circumstance is divine. The only
thing Christians are good for is fertilizer when their lying, two-faced
selves die and rot. Lutherans are perhaps the worst, a breed of insane,
maniacal liars who use their churches only as a place of socializing. I
think there are demons coming out of your butt, Fisher.
Know what you call 3 or more Lutherans gathered in the same place? A
coven.
goblin
joh...@trianon.org.com
You haven't read a lot of church history obviously. The burning of
witches, the inquisition, the wars of religion, the stoning of people.
There are a lot of psychopaths in the church!
Larry Brown
FVF wrote:
>
> On Mon, 10 Mar 1997 19:04:20 -0500, Larry Brown <lar...@digex.net>,
> eructated with:
>
> :::Facts Vs Feelings wrote:
> :::> Kinda falls under 'worship of false idols', doesn't it? ;)
> :::>
> :::> I would guess that you believe in one form or another of the great
> :::> mother?
> :::
> :::LB: Great mother, great father...depends on what one means, I'd say.
> :::You think that you're something more than your own person, your own
> :::God, both male and female perhaps?
>
> Huh?
>
> Anyway, I guess you and Ezekiel are close, right? I mean, you reading
> his mind and answering his post.
LB: Reading his mind? As if to say that when one should speak their
mind enough here to post, then those reading do read from their minds?
Yes. I suppose. I'd say that is a fair and reasonable assessment. A
bit elementary, but accurate?
>
> I guess you answered his post. At least you stringed together a bunch
> of words, using proper grammar, more or less.
LB: Yes, yes I did post a note without much of any grammatical obstacle
to your literary comprehensions. Did you have something you wished to
reply with besides "huh"? Hmm. Perhaps you're wishing to engage in a
public dialog and are in need of some assistance? Rather than 'try to
read the mind of Ezekiel, perhaps you would care to explain your idea
on a "great mother/father"?
Spyros Paraschis
> Nobody can prove that Jesus was/is God. Nobody can prove that
> Paradise exists. And nobody can prove that Jesus is in the Paradise.
>
Yes, but who cares? One trying to figure this out is missing the point
Abyss
mqu...@erie.net
"Spyros Paraschis" <ab...@matrix.kapatel.gr> wrote:
>Abyss
The Lord says " Prove me now herewith........"
search these words with your concordance to locate them and find out how the Lord allows us to prove him.
mdr...@earthlink.net
There's also faith (the belief of the *unseen/unmeasurable*).
Richard Yoon
kil...@magicnet.net
> And it takes an idiot to believe that circumstance is divine. The only
> thing Christians are good for is fertilizer when their lying, two-faced
> selves die and rot. Lutherans are perhaps the worst, a breed of insane,
> maniacal liars who use their churches only as a place of socializing. I
> think there are demons coming out of your butt, Fisher.
>
> Know what you call 3 or more Lutherans gathered in the same place? A
> coven.
"When the righteous prosper, the city rejoices; when the wicked perish,
there are shouts of joy."
Of course there is also:
"Stay away from a foolish man, for you will not find wisdom on his
lips."
Thank you for reaching out.
Donald R. Smith
Again you should say what you mean. You called one individual a
psychopath base on what he posted. I only said he did/does not exhibit
asocial and amoral behavior based on that same post. Neither you nor I
spoke to Church history at that point.
I am very aware of the things you say, and yes I have a lot of church
history. There are a lot of psychopaths within and without the church
just as there are a lot of perfectly sane, nonthreating individuals.
Leslie J Bertsch
: > Jesus cried loudly, "Father, Father why have you forsaken me ?"
: >Jesus accused his Father as having forsaken him. Just choose, which one is
: >God, Father or Jesus. It can not be both of them.
Jesus is both God and man. As a man he is subject to God. As the second
member of the Trinity He is equal to God.
ljb
Will Smith
Jesus saves nobody? Well, he saved me! The Bible says we're all sinners,
incapable of saving ourselves, and incapable of keeping ourselves saved.
It is either Jesus saving us to the utmost, or we are in miserable shape
indeed!
그恕嗚 <zi...@gulf.net> wrote in article <1766.7008...@gulf.net>...
> >On Fri, 07 Mar 1997 21:07:08 -0500, wr...@mindspring.com (Bob Felts),
> >eructated with:
>
> >:::In article
> >:::<Pine.ULT.3.91.97030...@osuunx.ucc.okstate.edu>,
"Arif
> >:::M."
> >:::<ma...@okstate.edu> wrote:
> >:::
> >:::| On 7 Mar 1997, Randolph Parrish wrote:
> >:::|
> >:::| > "Arif M." <ma...@okstate.edu> wrote:
> >:::| >
> >:::| > > There is no proof that any Christian's sins have been
atoned by
> >:::| > >Jesus. By the way, what is the clue that a sin has been atoned
??
> >:::| >
> >:::| > How does a Moslem know if his sins have been forgiven?
> >:::| > Does he know before death whether he can enter paradise or
not?
> >:::|
> >:::| That is a different story. Islam does not ask nor push people
to
> >:::| believe in God by a tricky teaching such as that sin atonement.
Islam
> >:::| teaches that God created the universe including the human beings.
It is
> >:::| so nice when the created ones obey the Creator.
> >:::
> >:::But you don't, you know. Not if you're honest with yourself
>
> >Isn't it nice to know that only YOU know the secrets of the universe?
> >All those other idiots, the ones that think like YOU, those atheists,
> >agnostics, and all those morons that believe all that foreign
> >religious junk, just kinda gives you a tingling sensation up and down
> >your spine, knowing how 'special' you are.
>
> >And I'll try to make sure there is a place saved for you in the
> >Special Olympics. Your category: coordinating your left and right eye
> >blinks.
>
> >I'll be rooting for ya!
>
> The IDIOT continues to speak!
>
>
Incarnation Of Babalon
joh...@trianon.org.com wrote:
{responding to a cascade of people who wrote}:
: > > >
: > > > > > > Have you ever gone without food or shelter? I'll bet not. Stop this
: > > > > > > foolish reliance on the bible and GET REAL !
: > > > > >
: > > > > > Why is the faith of another bother you?
: > > > >
: > > > > Your faith bothers us because we are nervous when psychopathic
: > > > > principles are accepted as reality.
: > > >
: > > > Psychopath: One suffering from emotional disorders with amoral and
: > > > asocial behavior.
: > > >
: > > > I see no amoral or asocial behavior here. Perhaps you just feel
: > > > threatned by things that are beyond your comprehension.
: > >
: > > Oh I used to be a Jesus freak for a couple of years. Then I matured and
: > > left those childish things behind. Maybe the person writing above meant
: > > psychotic, not psychopathic.
: >
: > Then maybe he should say what he means. And maybe he doesn't know what
: > he means.
:
: You haven't read a lot of church history obviously. The burning of
: witches, the inquisition, the wars of religion, the stoning of people.
: There are a lot of psychopaths in the church!
Good point! But I think the whole point of this particular thread is,
basically, that playing a mental game of convincing yourself that God is
going to feed and clothe you doesn't pay the bills or put food on the
table. And despite the stoical Paul's insistence that one could learn to
be content in any circumstances, poverty sucks shit, plain and simple.
And being part of the "working poor" is even worse. Here we are, with
our brilliant minds and our brilliant spirits, having to waste 40-50
hours per week or more SIMPLY to ensure that our incarnations continue --
and thus having virtually NO time to devote to the REAL purposes of our
lives unless we gyp ourselves somehow (e.g. sleep dep)...
--
BABALON/SHEDONA * "History is a bloody testament that
she...@intrepid.net * sincerity can achieve atrocities
********************** which cynicism could never conceive."
156^435^156^435^156^435 -- John Whiteside Parsons
Stileman
goblin <gothr...@popalex1.linknet.net> wrote:
>And it takes an idiot to believe that circumstance is divine. The only
>thing Christians are good for is fertilizer when their lying, two-faced
>selves die and rot. Lutherans are perhaps the worst, a breed of insane,
>maniacal liars who use their churches only as a place of socializing. I
>think there are demons coming out of your butt, Fisher.
>Know what you call 3 or more Lutherans gathered in the same place? A
>coven.
So why and how do you relate in this story, the chalk with belief in God. The
two are totally different events.
If you walk on the sidewalk and it just so happens you step on a crack just when
the Oklohma Federal Building was bombed, did this cause the explosion.
That is the trouble with subjectivism. People attribute totally wacky events
with God.
So why and how do you relate in this story, the chalk with belief in God. The
two are totally different events.
If you walk on the sidewalk and it just so happens you step on a crack just when
the Oklohma Federal Building was bombed, did this cause the explosion.
That is the trouble with subjectivism. People attribute totally wacky events
with God.
So why and how do you relate in this story, the chalk with belief in God. The
two are totally different events.
If you walk on the sidewalk and it just so happens you step on a crack just when
the Oklohma Federal Building was bombed, did this cause the explosion.
That is the trouble with subjectivism. People attribute totally wacky events
with God.
So why and how do you relate in this story, the chalk with belief in God. The
two are totally different events.
If you walk on the sidewalk and it just so happens you step on a crack just when
the Oklohma Federal Building was bombed, did this cause the explosion.
That is the trouble with subjectivism. People attribute totally wacky events
with God.
So why and how do you relate in this story, the chalk with belief in God. The
two are totally different events.
If you walk on the sidewalk and it just so happens you step on a crack just when
the Oklohma Federal Building was bombed, did this cause the explosion.
That is the trouble with subjectivism. People attribute totally wacky events
with God.
So why and how do you relate in this story, the chalk with belief in God. The
two are totally different events.
If you walk on the sidewalk and it just so happens you step on a crack just when
the Oklohma Federal Building was bombed, did this cause the explosion.
That is the trouble with subjectivism. People attribute totally wacky events
with God.
So why and how do you relate in this story, the chalk with belief in God. The
two are totally different events.
If you walk on the sidewalk and it just so happens you step on a crack just when
the Oklohma Federal Building was bombed, did this cause the explosion.
That is the trouble with subjectivism. People attribute totally wacky events
with God.
So why and how do you relate in this story, the chalk with belief in God. The
two are totally different events.
If you walk on the sidewalk and it just so happens you step on a crack just when
the Oklohma Federal Building was bombed, did this cause the explosion.
That is the trouble with subjectivism. People attribute totally wacky events
with God.
So why and how do you relate in this story, the chalk with belief in God. The
two are totally different events.
If you walk on the sidewalk and it just so happens you step on a crack just when
the Oklohma Federal Building was bombed, did this cause the explosion.
That is the trouble with subjectivism. People attribute totally wacky events
with God.
So why and how do you relate in this story, the chalk with belief in God. The
two are totally different events.
If you walk on the sidewalk and it just so happens you step on a crack just when
the Oklohma Federal Building was bombed, did this cause the explosion.
That is the trouble with subjectivism. People attribute totally wacky events
with God.
So why and how do you relate in this story, the chalk with belief in God. The
two are totally different events.
If you walk on the sidewalk and it just so happens you step on a crack just when
the Oklohma Federal Building was bombed, did this cause the explosion.
That is the trouble with subjectivism. People attribute totally wacky events
with God.
So why and how do you relate in this story, the chalk with belief in God. The
two are totally different events.
If you walk on the sidewalk and it just so happens you step on a crack just when
the Oklohma Federal Building was bombed, did this cause the explosion.
That is the trouble with subjectivism. People attribute totally wacky events
with God.
qui...@speed.com
Donald R. Smith wrote:
>
> joh...@trianon.org.com wrote:
> >
> > Donald R. Smith wrote:
> > >
> > > melk...@interramp.com wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Donald R. Smith wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Snip
> > > > >
> > > > > > > > foolish reliance on the bible and GET REAL !
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Why is the faith of another bother you?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Your faith bothers us because we are nervous when psychopathic
> > > > > > principles are accepted as reality.
> > > > >
> > > > > Psychopath: One suffering from emotional disorders with amoral and
> > > > > asocial behavior.
> > > > >
> > > > > I see no amoral or asocial behavior here. Perhaps you just feel
> > > > > threatned by things that are beyond your comprehension.
> > > >
> > > > Oh I used to be a Jesus freak for a couple of years. Then I matured and
> > > > left those childish things behind. Maybe the person writing above meant
> > > > psychotic, not psychopathic.
> > > Then maybe he should say what he means. And maybe he doesn't know what
> > > he means.
> >
> > You haven't read a lot of church history obviously. The burning of
> > witches, the inquisition, the wars of religion, the stoning of people.
> > There are a lot of psychopaths in the church!
>
> psychopath base on what he posted. I only said he did/does not exhibit
> asocial and amoral behavior based on that same post. Neither you nor I
> spoke to Church history at that point.
>
> I am very aware of the things you say, and yes I have a lot of church
> history. There are a lot of psychopaths within and without the church
> just as there are a lot of perfectly sane, nonthreating individuals.
The churches continue to wreak havoc on many groups in the world e.g. by
christianing the far east, denying human rights to gays, the Catholics
trying to prevent birth control in poor countries, keeping women in
second class roles, spreading misinformation about sex and AIDS, pitting
science against religion, etc.
qui...@speed.com
Incarnation Of Babalon wrote:
>
> joh...@trianon.org.com wrote:
> {responding to a cascade of people who wrote}:
> : > > >
> : > > > > > > foolish reliance on the bible and GET REAL !
> : > > > > >
> : > > > > > Why is the faith of another bother you?
> : > > > >
> : > > > > Your faith bothers us because we are nervous when psychopathic
> : > > > > principles are accepted as reality.
> : > > >
> : > > > Psychopath: One suffering from emotional disorders with amoral and
> : > > > asocial behavior.
> : > > >
> : > > > I see no amoral or asocial behavior here. Perhaps you just feel
> : > > > threatned by things that are beyond your comprehension.
> : > >
> : > > Oh I used to be a Jesus freak for a couple of years. Then I matured and
> : > > left those childish things behind. Maybe the person writing above meant
> : > > psychotic, not psychopathic.
> : >
> : > Then maybe he should say what he means. And maybe he doesn't know what
> : > he means.
> :
> : You haven't read a lot of church history obviously. The burning of
> : witches, the inquisition, the wars of religion, the stoning of people.
> : There are a lot of psychopaths in the church!
>
> Good point! But I think the whole point of this particular thread is,
> basically, that playing a mental game of convincing yourself that God is
> going to feed and clothe you doesn't pay the bills or put food on the
> table. And despite the stoical Paul's insistence that one could learn to
> be content in any circumstances, poverty sucks shit, plain and simple.
> And being part of the "working poor" is even worse. Here we are, with
> our brilliant minds and our brilliant spirits, having to waste 40-50
> hours per week or more SIMPLY to ensure that our incarnations continue --
> and thus having virtually NO time to devote to the REAL purposes of our
> lives unless we gyp ourselves somehow (e.g. sleep dep)...
>
> --
> BABALON/SHEDONA * "History is a bloody testament that
> she...@intrepid.net * sincerity can achieve atrocities
> ********************** which cynicism could never conceive."
> 156^435^156^435^156^435 -- John Whiteside Parsons
Then let's stop pretending that God is supply the essentials of life.
We supply if for ourselves. Humanism, baby!
Sharon
On Wed, 12 Mar 1997 joh...@trianon.org.com wrote:
> Donald R. Smith wrote:
> >
> > melk...@interramp.com wrote:
> > >
> > > Donald R. Smith wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Snip
> > > >
> > > > > > > Have you ever gone without food or shelter? I'll bet not. Stop this
> > > > > > > foolish reliance on the bible and GET REAL !
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Why is the faith of another bother you?
> > > > >
> > > > > Your faith bothers us because we are nervous when psychopathic
> > > > > principles are accepted as reality.
> > > >
> > > > Psychopath: One suffering from emotional disorders with amoral and
> > > > asocial behavior.
> > > >
> > > > I see no amoral or asocial behavior here. Perhaps you just feel
> > > > threatned by things that are beyond your comprehension.
> > >
> > > Oh I used to be a Jesus freak for a couple of years. Then I matured and
> > > left those childish things behind. Maybe the person writing above meant
> > > psychotic, not psychopathic.
> > Then maybe he should say what he means. And maybe he doesn't know what
> > he means.
>
>
> You haven't read a lot of church history obviously. The burning of
> witches, the inquisition, the wars of religion, the stoning of people.
> There are a lot of psychopaths in the church!
>
The main difference is IT WAS MAN burning witches at the stake. God did
not tell them to burn them.... MAN is also the one who causes war
because we can't get along with each other. God calls us to love one
another.
Joshua Moss
That is a nearly perfect regurgitation of the creed of Chalcedon and the
creed ascribed to St. Athanasius.
Please note that Jesus said, "My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me?"
(quoting Ps. 22) - NOT "My Father, My Father." Had he said the latter,
that would fit into your explanation nicely.
But no, he said, "My God, My God."
How can God have a God? Wouldn't that make 2 Gods?
He didn't say, "1st member, this is 2nd member on the line." As a human
being, he cast his soul on the only God he believed in. Existentially,
at that moment, he had no belief in anything like the Trinity.
Libertarius
In <Pine.PMDF.3.91.9703141...@UCBEH.SAN.UC.EDU>
Will Smith
All religions equally valid? That's a laugh! "Jesus said, I am THE way,
THE truth, and THE life, NO MAN cometh unto the Father, except through ME".
There are two paths, the one which leads to life (repentance and faith in
our LIVING SAVIOR), and the one which leads to eternal death and damnation
- which encompasses all other belief systems, even those pseudo-Christian
denominations that either teach works plus faith in Christ, or deny the
Diety, the Virgin Birth, and the Atonement (such as the Jehovah's Witnesses
and Mormons). I know this isn't going to be well received by some of you,
but there can only be one truth.
Larry Brown <lar...@digex.net> wrote in article
<3324A1...@digex.net>...
> Facts Vs Feelings wrote:
> >
> > On Sun, 09 Mar 1997 07:03:21 GMT, Helleni...@Athenia.com (Ezekiel
> > Krahlin), eructated with:
> >
> > :::On Fri, 7 Mar 1997 11:37:09 -0600, Fisher of Men
> > :::<spur...@lonestar.jpl.utsa.edu> said:
> > :::
> > :::>I then bowed down at the feet of Christ, my Saviour.
> > :::>And for the first time, I truly prayed.
> > :::>
> > :::> Author Unknown.
> >
:::>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > :::>Please, if you like it forward it to others so they can benefit
from
> > :::>it too!
> >
:::>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > :::
> > :::I don't like. It's smug and oppressive to people with other belief
> > :::systems...including Christians who are progressive and
nonjudgmental,
> > :::and respectful toward all religions (including atheism) as equally
> > :::valid. And that's what I am. I have met many atheists and
agnostics
> > :::who are far more compassionate and wise than many lowbrow
Christians.
> > :::(Hail, Athenia...brave new nation!)
> >
Larry Brown
FVF wrote:
<snip>
> I feel one should be honest about it. If you are Ezekiel, say so, so
> I know who I'm responding to. If you are someone else, you might try
> saying something like, " IMO.......", or, "I know Eze pretty well, and
> this might be what he would say......."
LB: How about "this is a public ng, and if you can't read an ID for what
it is, then "imo" will likely mean as little to a newbie like you
anyhow"?
>
> I have no idea what he would say as I haven't found a reply to my post
> yet. Nor am I all that familiar with his/your religion, that was why
> I asked the question. And your answer was something I would expect
> from someone dropping acid.
LB: And from your own remark, you sound like some kinda paranoid er
sumthin.
Oh, yeah, fer shir...it's ok for you to ask questions, but no one
else??? I
don't think so!
<snip>
> Ah. A new term for a form of bible babble. Very, eh, 'hip'.
>
LB: Then I guess a prim yuppie like yourself oughta get 'with it' and
trim your headers, do some serious editing, or simply read more and
jabber less. Or hey, try all the above!
Larry Brown
Will Smith wrote:
>
> All religions equally valid? That's a laugh! "Jesus said, I am THE way,
> THE truth, and THE life, NO MAN cometh unto the Father, except through ME".
> There are two paths, the one which leads to life (repentance and faith in
> our LIVING SAVIOR), and the one which leads to eternal death and damnation
> - which encompasses all other belief systems, even those pseudo-Christian
> denominations that either teach works plus faith in Christ, or deny the
> Diety, the Virgin Birth, and the Atonement (such as the Jehovah's Witnesses
> and Mormons). I know this isn't going to be well received by some of you,
> but there can only be one truth.
LB: If one road didn't lead in two different directions...I might agree
with you 100%. As it is tho...only 50%. As for what Yeshu said of God,
I am hardly one to dispute it. And yet everyone of every religion also
has matters on their Way to assess, to address by their own measures of
what absolute Truth is, and to regard with their very Lives as much they
even know much about where they come from or go to in the first place or
the last.
Yes, even Yeshu being so honest and of a truth said "not by my own will,
but yours." Xtians claiming the son as The Father don't accept this due
to their chosen 'religion', and Jews only knowing their own fathers are
adamant about the entire matter, if not absolutely viscious about it all
too.
And *that* is the ancient and contemporary fact about Man tending only
to believe what he wants to believe about matters he doesn't truly know.
Larry Brown
FVF wrote:
<snip>
> Poster child for stupidity. Hm. What's that mean?
>
> Anyway, I view religion as a need. A genetic predisposition. 5 out
> of 6 billion have been served. And I'm not talkin' burgers.
>
> You are going after the ones that have either rejected your moronic
> version of the Truth, or have a different version of the Truth.
>
> I'm sure you'll get a letter from Jerry's kids about that slanderous
> slur.
> <snip>
> How subtle. How noble. How typical of your mindset. I bet you have
> your own set of torture tools, eh? You'd just LOVE to get your goofy
> hands on a 'sinner'.
> <snip>
> Thanks. I work at it. Your problem is that you are even funnier, and
> you AREN'T working at it.
LB: Just glancing at the topics, I'd say you were off-topic just about
everywhere, FVF. And that tired sig of yours alone is enough to press the
bandwidth, buttmunch.
Arif M.
On 13 Mar 1997, Leslie J Bertsch wrote:
> : > Jesus cried loudly, "Father, Father why have you forsaken me ?"
> : >Jesus accused his Father as having forsaken him. Just choose, which one is
> : >God, Father or Jesus. It can not be both of them.
>
> Jesus is both God and man.
This is an absurd statement. John 1:14 says, "And the Word became
flesh ...". So, according John 1:14, that man is God.
As a man he is subject to God. As the second
> member of the Trinity He is equal to God.
Because that man is God, so you said that God is subject to God.
This is your second absurd statement.
Melinda
qui...@speed.com wrote:
> The churches continue to wreak havoc on many groups in the world e.g. by
> christianing the far east, denying human rights to gays, the Catholics
> trying to prevent birth control in poor countries, keeping women in
> second class roles, spreading misinformation about sex and AIDS, pitting
> science against religion, etc.
First, we are not Christianizing anybody, we are sharing God's word. Poeple can
accept it or reject it, and from what I've read and heard about Christians in the
Far East, it would be a lot easier to reject it.
Denying human rights to gays? We are called to love our neighbors, whether they are
homosexuals or liars.
How are the Christians keeping women in a second calss role? By making them submit
to their husbands? I have a couple quick things to say about that: We are called to
sacrifice ourselves and submit to our omniscient God. I'm willing to give up some
authority for God. Also, I don't think it's much of a restraint. God set up a
system that works; it is difficult to live with another leader. I'm sorry if this
isn't making too much sense... It's easier to have a conversation...
I am offended by your statement that Christians are spreading lies about sex and
AIDS. What do you mean?
I don't think the church is pitting science against religion, it is questioning
scientific findings based on knowledge of the Bible and Truth.
God bless,
Melinda
Ezekiel Krahlin
On Mon, 10 Mar 1997 18:53:25 -0500, Larry Brown <lar...@digex.net>
said:
>LB: Wonder why it is that any would pray after finding what could
>only be answer after that very thing.
Hi, Larry. Zeke here. I pray as a form of meditation. I not only
pray that I might have some things...such as good health for another
or myself, or overcome a difficulty, etc. I also pray in gratitude to
my creator...even when I am pissed off and hurting. It is a form of
gentle discipline that keeps the joy generator spinning in my heart.
It refreshes the knowing of myself, and clears out the cobwebs.
>Eh. Nobudy's business I 'spose.
Not at all...especially when you approach that subject like a
philosopher!
>Does have that redeeming value of a contriteness, tho. And so if
>they would only stand and walk on their own with what is given them,
>'twould be a miracle of kind indeed.
I do stand and walk on my own...and so I pray in gratitude for having
that ability. I am not a Jesus freak, though Christian. I am a
student of world religions, world views, and beliefs. I love so much
of other cultures, and it is so easy for me to understand that the
variety of ways humans worship creation makes the universe that much
more rich and manifold. This goes for non-god beliefs (semi- or
otherwise), too, such as atheism and existentialism, and agnosticism.
---
Happy Hale-Bopp, GayFolk...this star is *our* star!
http://www.fog.net/ekrahlin ekra...@fog.net
Public dialogue only, no spamming.
Hostile replies will be publicly posted.
Ezekiel Krahlin
On Sun, 09 Mar 1997 14:41:01 GMT, Fa...@fiction.com (Facts Vs Feelings)
said:
>:::>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>:::>Please, if you like it forward it to others so they can benefit from
>:::>it too!
>:::>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>:::
>:::I don't like. It's smug and oppressive to people with other belief
>:::systems...including Christians who are progressive and nonjudgmental,
>:::and respectful toward all religions (including atheism) as equally
>:::valid. And that's what I am. I have met many atheists and agnostics
>:::who are far more compassionate and wise than many lowbrow Christians.
>:::(Hail, Athenia...brave new nation!)
>
>Kinda falls under 'worship of false idols', doesn't it? ;)
>
>I would guess that you believe in one form or another of the great
>mother?
I certainly do...thank you for asking! I believe that God can be
worshipped in many ways...as many ways as there are people. But let's
just break it down into cultures. Personally, I choose to be
Christian-identified in a non-dogmatic way. I also think of God as
male...only because he is my fantasy lover, and I am Thracian (gay
male). I like to think of God as so caring for all of us, that he is
often seen running around, changing in and out of high heels, nylons,
and lipstick...just to please all the feminists and dykes who are
praying by an altar of Goddess! He does make guest appearances, you
know! ;-)
I believe in the Christ of Joy, not the Christ of the Crucifixion. I
also believe in the "Christa" (female Christ)...as totally equal to,
and as valid as, a male Christ. I believe in order to finally balance
out all this stinky male chauvanism in our society (U.S.A), we ought
to give up our powers, beliefs, and responsibilities to women at a
proportion of 74% women to 26% men...thus turning the tables a
complete 180 degrees.
One of my spirit proctectors is The White Wolf. I intentionally think
of it as "she" (instead of he), just because it's wrong to envision
every spirit entity you relate to as male. It's healthy, it's sane,
it's kind. It's about time.
Ezekiel Krahlin
On Thu, 13 Mar 1997 13:47:04 GMT, Fa...@non.fiction (FVF) said:
>I feel one should be honest about it. If you are Ezekiel, say so, so
>I know who I'm responding to. If you are someone else, you might try
>saying something like, " IMO.......", or, "I know Eze pretty well, and
>this might be what he would say......."
No, that person is not Ezekiel...I am. I just replied to an earlier
post, was it yours? If not, I missed it somewhere. I don't frequent
this newsgroup (alt.recovery.religion) often, but want to, as I make
time for more activities. My interests lie in world religions,
spiritual discussions, Carl Jung, shamanism and magick as it is
applies to the 21st century.
>I have no idea what he would say as I haven't found a reply to my post
>yet. Nor am I all that familiar with his/your religion, that was why
>I asked the question. And your answer was something I would expect
>from someone dropping acid.
I just skimmed through this thread...I hope I gave someone the answer
they wanted! I believe you asked in that message:
>I would guess that you believe in one form or another of thegreat
>mother?
So I did give a reply, just not as soon as I should have.
Bob Felts
In article
<Pine.ULT.3.91.97031...@osuunx.ucc.okstate.edu>, "Arif M."
<ma...@okstate.edu> wrote:
Why is that absurd? By His very nature, how else could it be?
__|_______ Through His love and through a ram,
| He saved the son of Abraham...
| Bob Felts But God demonstrates His own love for us,
| wr...@mindspring.com in that while we were still sinners,
| http://www.mindspring.com/~wrf3 Christ died for us.
Heath-
Will Smith wrote:
>
> All religions equally valid? That's a laugh! "Jesus said, I am THE way,
> THE truth, and THE life, NO MAN cometh unto the Father, except through ME".
> There are two paths, the one which leads to life (repentance and faith in
> our LIVING SAVIOR), and the one which leads to eternal death and damnation
> - which encompasses all other belief systems, even those pseudo-Christian
> denominations that either teach works plus faith in Christ, or deny the
> Diety, the Virgin Birth, and the Atonement (such as the Jehovah's Witnesses
> and Mormons). I know this isn't going to be well received by some of you,
> but there can only be one truth.
Will,
In light of the above, I wonder if you would explain Hebrews 5:9 to us?
Thanks,
Heath-
Ronald W. Myers
In <332AF8...@apex.net> Heath- <mhe...@apex.net> writes:
<snip>
>
>In light of the above, I wonder if you would explain Hebrews 5:9 to
us?
>
>Thanks,
>
>Heath-
of eternal salvation. This is superior than a human priest providing a
temporary covering of sin. Christ's redemption is ETERNAL. Jesus
Christ is our Great High Priest.
Hope this helps :-)
Ron Myers
ronm...@ix.netcom.com
Let EVERYTHING that hath breath, PRAISE THE LORD
Arif M.
On Sat, 15 Mar 1997, Bob Felts wrote:
> In article
> <Pine.ULT.3.91.97031...@osuunx.ucc.okstate.edu>, "Arif M."
> <ma...@okstate.edu> wrote:
>
> | On 13 Mar 1997, Leslie J Bertsch wrote:
> |
> | > : > Jesus cried loudly, "Father, Father why have you forsaken me ?"
> | > : >Jesus accused his Father as having forsaken him. Just choose, which
> one is
> | > : >God, Father or Jesus. It can not be both of them.
> | >
> | > Jesus is both God and man.
> |
> | This is an absurd statement. John 1:14 says, "And the Word became
> | flesh ...". So, according John 1:14, that man is God.
> |
> | As a man he is subject to God. As the second
> | > member of the Trinity He is equal to God.
> |
> | Because that man is God, so you said that God is subject to God.
> | This is your second absurd statement.
>
> Why is that absurd? By His very nature, how else could it be?
So, you said that He is absurd ...
Jim Jarrell
> | He saved the son of Abraham...
> | Bob Felts But God demonstrates His own love for us,
> | wr...@mindspring.com in that while we were still sinners,
> | http://www.mindspring.com/~wrf3 Christ died for us.
The words of the Bible:
"Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had
broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making
himself equal with God." -John 5:18.
The Bible claims He was God, Christians only affirm it.
--
Yours for the Truth,
Jim Jarrell
jim...@wam.umd.edu
http://www.wam.umd.edu/~jimmon/Power.html
Syed Yusuf
Thus spake Bob Felts (wr...@mindspring.com):
> | Because that man is God, so you said that God is subject to God.
> | This is your second absurd statement.
> Why is that absurd? By His very nature, how else could it be?
If YHWH wanted to destroy Jesus (Alahee Salaam), his mother Mary (Radi
Allahu Anhu) (may Allah be pleased with her), the earth and all it
contains, WHO would have the power to stop him?
IF the Pope crowns the king, which is more powerful? the King crowned,
or the Pope that crowned him?
(according to your scripture) Jesus stated he was GIVEN all authority
on earth. which is more powerful? Jesus GIVEN authority, or the ONE WHO
GAVE HIM THE AUTHORITY?
SECONDLY, if he was GIVEN authority that means there was once a time
he DIDN'T HAVE AUTHORITY. do you imagine a god once without authority?
if he's a god now, do you imagine that he was TURNED INTO a god? and if
so, how do you claim moral superiority to Hindus?
> __|_______ Through His love and through a ram,
> | He saved the son of Abraham...
> | Bob Felts But God demonstrates His own love for us,
> | wr...@mindspring.com in that while we were still sinners,
> | http://www.mindspring.com/~wrf3 Christ died for us.
--
My reply-to: is altered to avoid junkmailers. Delete everthing after ".edu"
--
I weep because your laws are disobeyed | Psalms 120:136
The wicked are FAR from salvation for they DO NOT CARE | Pslams 120:155
for your laws. |
I come NOT to cancel the Law of Moses | Matt 5:17
If you don't celebrate the Sabbath AS A SABBATH, | Thomas(1):27
you won't see the Father |
SIN is transgression of the LAW | 1John 3:4
Many will come to me saying 'Lord, Lord..' But I will | Matt 7:22-23
reply "I NEVER knew you, your deeds are EVIL" |
on the Rock
> goblin <gothr...@popalex1.linknet.net> Babbled; spittle running down
its face >on its bib:
No gobby goo for brains, the real Idiot is you who have no sight to see or
ears to hear.
The only thing you have right is the Fact that 95% of all Christianity
are idiot hypocrites who have forgotten, or are too tradition bound to care
that: JESUS SAVES without all the do-do this or don't do that. HE paid the
Price almost 2000 years ago for you,me and every other unworthy
human=(ALL).
The one point of joy I have is at your present state of
development(some things can change of course) I do not have to worry about
seeing your stupid self in Eternity!
SeeYaLaterBye!! FOOL !!!
ic...@main.com
Will Smith wrote:
>
> Jesus saves nobody? Well, he saved me! The Bible says we're all sinners,
> incapable of saving ourselves, and incapable of keeping ourselves saved.
> It is either Jesus saving us to the utmost, or we are in miserable shape
> indeed!
I'm not sure what went before this statement, but I can agree with Will
Smith. Jesus saved me too!!
Teddy
ic...@main.com
Za...@sanity.com
>---
>Happy Hale-Bopp, GayFolk...this star is *our* star!
>http://www.fog.net/ekrahlin ekra...@fog.net
>Public dialogue only, no spamming.
>Hostile replies will be publicly posted.
Must have been the brown acid at Woodstock. They told you not to take this!
Bob Felts
| On Sat, 15 Mar 1997, Bob Felts wrote:
|
| > In article
| > <Pine.ULT.3.91.97031...@osuunx.ucc.okstate.edu>, "Arif M."
| > <ma...@okstate.edu> wrote:
| >
| > | On 13 Mar 1997, Leslie J Bertsch wrote:
| > |
| > | > : > Jesus cried loudly, "Father, Father why have you forsaken me ?"
| > | > : >Jesus accused his Father as having forsaken him. Just choose, which
| > one is
| > | > : >God, Father or Jesus. It can not be both of them.
| > | >
| > | > Jesus is both God and man.
| > |
| > | This is an absurd statement. John 1:14 says, "And the Word became
| > | flesh ...". So, according John 1:14, that man is God.
| > |
| > | As a man he is subject to God. As the
second
| > | > member of the Trinity He is equal to God.
| > |
| > | Because that man is God, so you said that God is subject to God.
| > | This is your second absurd statement.
| >
| > Why is that absurd? By His very nature, how else could it be?
|
| So, you said that He is absurd ...
I said that the supposed absurdity is not absurd, because God is, by
His very nature, subject to Himself.
jac...@yosemite.com
You're both suffering from delusions. You had a 'peak experience', as
we call it in psychology, which you attributing to some deity called
'Jesus'.
You had cathartic, rewarding experience - not an experience of god.
Bob Felts
In article <5gfpl3$eec$2...@newshound.csrv.uidaho.edu>, yusu...@uidaho.edu.q
wrote:
| Thus spake Bob Felts (wr...@mindspring.com):
|
| > | Because that man is God, so you said that God is subject to God.
| > | This is your second absurd statement.
|
| > Why is that absurd? By His very nature, how else could it be?
|
| If YHWH wanted to destroy Jesus (Alahee Salaam), his mother Mary (Radi
| Allahu Anhu) (may Allah be pleased with her), the earth and all it
| contains, WHO would have the power to stop him?
No one. But so what? The point is that only God can stop Himself.
For example, God does not lie because He chooses not to lie. He has
subjected which words He will speak to His choice of how He will
speak. Therefore, God is subject to Himself -- and to Himself alone.
|
| IF the Pope crowns the king, which is more powerful? the King crowned,
| or the Pope that crowned him?
And if the King crowns Himself?
| (according to your scripture) Jesus stated he was GIVEN all authority
| on earth. which is more powerful? Jesus GIVEN authority, or the ONE WHO
| GAVE HIM THE AUTHORITY?
Both. Think of it this way: what God says is subject to what God is.
But what God says is no less powerful than what God is. Furthermore,
what God says is indistinguishable from what God is.
| SECONDLY, if he was GIVEN authority that means there was once a time
| he DIDN'T HAVE AUTHORITY.
Nonsense. When did God's words not have God's authority?
| do you imagine a god once without authority?
Nope.
| if he's a god now, do you imagine that he was TURNED INTO a god?
Nope. From everlasting to everlasting, He is God.
| and if
| so, how do you claim moral superiority to Hindus?
Because God has spoken directly through His Son, the Lord Jesus
Christ.
Lester
Fisher of Men wrote:
x
x It takes guts to say "Jesus"
x This is a true story of something that happened just a few
years ago at
x USC. There was a professor of philosophy there who was a deeply
x committed atheist. His primary goal for one required class was to
x spend the entire semester attempting to prove that God couldn't exist.
x His students were always afraid to argue with him because of his
impeccable
x logic. For twenty years he had taught this class and no one had ever
had
x the courage to go against him. Sure, some had argued in class at
times,
x but no one had ever *really gone against him* (you'll see what I mean
x later). Nobody would go against him because he had a reputation. At
x the end of every semester, on the last day, he would say to the class
x of 300 students, "If there is anyone here who still believes in God,
stand
x up!" In twenty years, nobody ever stood up. They knew what he was
x going to do next. He would say, "Because anyone who believes in God
is a
x fool. If God existed, he could stop this piece of chalk from hitting
the
x ground and breaking. Such a simple task to prove he is God, and yet
he
x can't do it." And every year he would drop the chalk onto the tile
floor
x of the classroom and it could shatter into a hundred pieces. All of
the
x students could do nothing but stop and stare. Most of the students
x were convinced that God couldn't exist. Certainly, a number of
x Christians had slipped through, but for 20 years they had been too
afraid to
x stand up. Well, a few yaers ago there was a freshman who happened to
get
x enrolled in the class. He was a Christian, and had heard the stories
x about this professor. He had to take the class because it was one of
the
x required classes for his major. And he was afraid. But for three
months
x that semester, he prayed every morning that he would have the courage
to
x stand up no matter what the professor said or what the class thought.
x Nothing they said or did could ever shatter his faith, he hoped.
Finally, the
x day came. The professor said, "If there is anyone here who
x still believes in God, stand up!" The professor, and the class of 300
x people looked at him, shocked, as he stood up at the back of the
room. The
x professor shouted, "YOU FOOL! If nothing I have said all semester has
x convinced you that God doesn't exist, then you are a fool! If God
x existed, he could keep this piece of chalk from breaking when it
x hit the ground!" He proceeded to drop the chalk, but as he did, it
x slipped out of his fingers, off his shirt cuff, onto the pleats of his
pants,
x down his leg, and off his shoe. And as it hit the ground, it simply
x rolled away, unbroken. The professor's jaw dropped as he stared at
the
x chalk. He looked up at the young man and then ran out of the lecture
hall.
x The young man who had stood up proceeded to walk to the front of the
x room and share his faith in Jesus for the next half hour. 300
students
x stayed and listened as he told of God's love for them and of his power
x through Jesus. "Yet to all who received HIM, to those who believed in
HIS
x name, HE gave the right to become children of God - children born not
of
x natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born
of
x GOD. "But HE knows the way that I take, when HE has tested me, I will
x come forth as gold." Job 23:10
I prefer the version where the blasphemous professor uses an egg and
dares God to stop it from breaking. Instead our pious student says
something like:
"Dear Lord. This man has defied you in front of all these people. So I
pray that when he drops the egg, not that you stop it from breaking, but
that you strike him dead!"
At that the professor quickly changed the subject. Maybe he didn't want
to get the floor dirty.
Mike Dmytrenko
In article <Pine.ULT.3.91.97031...@osuunx.ucc.okstate.edu> "Arif M." <ma...@okstate.edu> writes:
>From: "Arif M." <ma...@okstate.edu>
>Subject: Re: Jesus is not God
>Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 19:23:47 -0600
>On 13 Mar 1997, Leslie J Bertsch wrote:
>> : > Jesus cried loudly, "Father, Father why have you forsaken me ?"
>> : >Jesus accused his Father as having forsaken him. Just choose, which one is
>> : >God, Father or Jesus. It can not be both of them.
>>
>> Jesus is both God and man.
> This is an absurd statement. John 1:14 says, "And the Word became
>flesh ...". So, according John 1:14, that man is God.
> As a man he is subject to God. As the second
>> member of the Trinity He is equal to God.
> Because that man is God, so you said that God is subject to God.
>This is your second absurd statement.
Let's see what Mohammad has to say about this.
Hey Mo! Got an answer from the Koran to help this lost Muslim.
When the angels said: O Mary! God giveth thee Glad tidings of a
WORD FROM HIM; HIS NAME WILL BE CHRIST JESUS, the
Son of Mary, HELD IN HONOUR in this world and THE HEAREAFTER
and of those Nearest to God." Sura 3:45
Anything else Mo?
Yep, ... Verily JESUS CHRIST the Son of Mary was an apostle of
God, and HIS WORD, HE conveyed INTO Mary and SPIRIT PROCEEDING
FROM HIM,
It's plain for an reasonalbe person to see that the WORD OF GOD
must be the SAME NATURE as GOD HIMSELF.
The verse 3:45 in the Koran mentions the divine and the human
natures of Jesus Christ together without any logical or theological
uneasiness about it.
So the KORAN CONFIRMS the Injil (Bible) in the declaration that
Jesus Christ was and is the Word of God Who became flesh and
dwelt among us.
Thanks for doing what the Koran says - When in doubt ask the
"Children Of The Book" (a christian or Jew) and we will put you
on the track to eternity, reject it and condemn yourself.
Bought with a price,
Michael Dmytrenko <>< (Toronto, Canada) 03/15/97 22:59:25
<http://www.inforamp.net/~mdcanada/> A 3-dimensional Website
<>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <><
And in that day it shall be that living waters shall flow from Jerusalem, half
of them toward the eastern sea and half of them toward the western sea; in both
summer and winter it shall occur. And the Lord shall be King over all the
earth. In that day it shall be - "the LORD is one," and His name one.
Zechariah 14:8,9
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