The myth of Gay Income
Lac...@webtv.net
As you well know, the forces of the Religious-Right &
Conservatives have been fighting against ANY civil rights
protection for Gays & Lesbians. Especially those rights
that protect Gays & Lesbians from being fired from their
jobs, kicked out of or denied housing and to be protected
against harrasment in schools.
The Religious-Right & other anti-Gay forces have said
that one of the reasons why Gays & Lesbians do not need
civil rights protection is because we make too much money.
The Anti-Gay Right-Wing has said that Gays & Lesbians make
more money on the average than Straight people. A so-called
expert has said that Straight people make an average of
$ 12,000. a year and that Gays & Lesbians make an average
of $ 35,000. a year.
First of all, I'd like to know where the hell they get
those statistics from. Did they go all over the country and
ask EVERY Gay person how much they make??? Personally, No
one has NEVER asked me how much money I make. If they did,
I would bring that average WAY DOWN. Wheres my share of
that $ 35,000. I believe I make less than one third of
that. I personally haven't met anyone or dated anyone who
makes that much. Most of my Gay friends & most of the men I
dated share a house or apartment with about 2 other people.
Some are in their late 20's, early 30,s and still live at
home with their parent(s). Where are the Gay men who make
$ 35,000 a year??? I'd like to meet and date one.
These Right-Wing Anti-Gay biggots are looking at the
Gay & Lesbian celebrities, Gay & Lesbian Business men &
women who are able to "come out" and be open. And the
Anti-Gay biggots are taking the salaries of "Out" and
affluent Gays & Lesbians and averaging them and ignoring
the everyday hard working Gays & Lesbians (like myself) who
work long hours, just like everybody else and bringing home
crappy paychecks just like everybody else.
Gay & Lesbian people who come from wealthy families
will most likely continue to be wealthy because they are
able to go to college, and sometimes the "Best" colleges
(Harvard, Yale) where most Gay and Lesbian people cannot
afford to go. Gays & Lesbians who come from Working-Class
families (such as myself) cannot afford college, or must
work hard to save up to go. Just as most Working-Class
Heterosexuals end up being Working-Class for the rest of
their lives, so will the Working-Class Homosexuals.
Most of the affluent Gay & Lesbian people are usually
White, mostly Male, and usually vote Republican, belonging
to the "Log Cabin Republicans", These affluent Gay &
Lesbian people make up a very small portion of the Gay
community. Most Gay people are Democrats. Gay racial
minorities (Blacks, Hispanics), Gay Women, and Gay
working-class Whites have the same financial struggles that
their Heterosexual counterparts have. Sometimes even worse.
There are certain financial advantages to being Gay or
Lesbian that straight people usually don't have. Most gay
people don't have children so we can keep our money for
ourselves (what little bit we make) and spend it on
ourselves or save it instead of buying diapers, cribs,
toys, especially when the kids beg for the "latest" toys
which are expensive, kids clothes & shoes, little league,
ballet, etc... But with the cost of living going up, rent,
food, and utilities, it is still a struggle without
children.
The salaries for Lesbians are even lower than Gay mens
salaries because our society still pays women less then
men.
So I ask of the Anti-Gay forces out there to "cut the
crap" about Gays making much more money that Straights. Yes
there are some affluent Gay men out there. But they ARE NOT
sharing their wealth with me, or anyone else in the Gay
community. They ARE NOT hiring me to work for them. Most
affluent Gays & Lesbians professionals will only date other
affluent Gays & Lesbians professionals. Just as Straight
Male professionals usually date Straight Female
professionals, & vice versa.
I AM NOT on of these "affluent' Gay men, and I am
getting pretty damn sick and tired of these Right-Wing
biggots telling everyone that I make more money than they
do when I probably make less money than most straight
people. I want to be treated as an individual. Even if I
was making $ 35,000 a year, or even $ 350,000 a year, I
still deserve my civil rights and not to be discriminated
against for Jobs, Housing, etc...
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Loren Petrich
> The Religious-Right & other anti-Gay forces have said
>that one of the reasons why Gays & Lesbians do not need
>civil rights protection is because we make too much money.
I'm surprised that the ultracapitalist section of the right wing
does not seem to have noticed that accusation -- because in
ultracapitalist terms, homosexual people are more "successful" that
heterosexual ones, and are more worthy people for that reasons. It's just
like how some anti-abortionists accuse abortionists of the supposed sin
of practicing capitalism -- where are the ultracapitalists who snicker
about *that*?
I suspect it is because the Republican Party needs the
ultracapitalists' money and the Religious Right's votes, and it's only a
common enemy that keeps them from each other's throats.
[criticism of that premise...]
--
Loren Petrich Happiness is a fast Macintosh
pet...@netcom.com And a fast train
My home page: http://www.webcom.com/petrich/home.html
Mirrored at: ftp://ftp.netcom.com/pub/pe/petrich/home.html
Ezekiel Krahlin
On Fri, 28 Feb 1997 00:21:18 -0600, Lac...@webtv.net said:
> First of all, I'd like to know where the hell they get
>those statistics from. Did they go all over the country and
>ask EVERY Gay person how much they make??? Personally, No
>one has NEVER asked me how much money I make. If they did,
>I would bring that average WAY DOWN. Wheres my share of
>that $ 35,000. I believe I make less than one third of
>that.
I want to thank you for your honesty regarding your own income. Many
gays don't want to admit how little they earn...thus skews the
statistics. I, too, live on a modest income, though my output--both
creative and physical--is tremendous. Being without family, close
friends, or a lover...I could easily become the next homeless
statistic, should my humble living situation get shook up.
What you said, as usual, is informative and right on the mark...and
needs to be heard, to help keep all of us aware and righteously
angered. Thank god/dess for the Internet.
The religious right can easily afford the most sophisticated
researchers and experts regarding mass psychological manipulation and
distortion of statistical data. This tactic to make society hate us
further--because we're supposed to be so rich--is one more clever
weapon to convince the public that the civil rights we demand are
actually frivolous special rights...as you already pointed out.
We Lesbians and Thracians sure have a lot on our shoulders to push
back...but I believe it is finally time for our ultimate victory and
liberation by the year 2001. I have never seen anything like Internet
bond our people so well in fighting together for a common cause.
P.S.: I'm surprised the "good" Rev. Mike (sweet-hissing snake in the
weeds) hasn't attempted to water you down on this issue too...or
perhaps I missed it. I can hear him now: "Most churches don't
believe that, they know how you homosexuals are financially
struggling. Those are just fringe groups baiting you."
----------signature:
I prefer public dialogue...no personal replies, please
(except on request; will consider pen-pals).
Private, hostile comments will be re-posted in public.
all...@ranta.com
Gay men are more highly educated that straights, thus they earn more
money.
Ward Stewart
>Ezekiel Krahlin wrote:
>>
>> On Fri, 28 Feb 1997 00:21:18 -0600, Lac...@webtv.net said:
>>
>> > First of all, I'd like to know where the hell they get
>> >those statistics from. Did they go all over the country and
>> >ask EVERY Gay person how much they make??? Personally, No
>> >one has NEVER asked me how much money I make.
It was produced by a flack selling advetising
space in the Gay Glossies -- it is bull-shit
snip snip snip
Alan C responded --
>Gay men are more highly educated that straights, thus they earn more
>money.
If the above odd stuff about greater income and,
etc., should be true, one can only conclude that
---
Gays are smarter
Gays read more
Gays work harder
Gays stay in school longer
Gays make more money
Gays attend more theater and opera
On and on ---
Really terrible stuff that we do, we should ba
ASHAMED of our naughty ways!
unk
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
When someone with the authority of a teacher, say,
describes the world and you are not in it, there is a
moment of psychic disequilibrium, as if you looked
into a mirror and saw nothing.
--Adrienne Rich, "Invisibility in Academe"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Loren Petrich
In article <5fcomn$8...@nuhou.aloha.net>, Ward Stewart <wste...@hi.net> wrote:
>>Ezekiel Krahlin wrote:
>>Gay men are more highly educated that straights, thus they earn more
>>money.
>If the above odd stuff about greater income and,
>etc., should be true, one can only conclude that
>Gays are smarter
>Gays read more
>Gays work harder
>Gays stay in school longer
>Gays make more money
>Gays attend more theater and opera
>On and on ---
>Really terrible stuff that we do, we should ba
>ASHAMED of our naughty ways!
I'm surprised that the right-wingers are not hailing homosexual
people as model citizens.
Ezekiel Krahlin
On Sun, 02 Mar 1997 09:04:12 -0500, all...@ranta.com said:
>Gay men are more highly educated that straights, thus they earn more
>money.
That's a stereotype...I don't see the education as being any greater
than among straights...though I wish it were true. The income level,
on average, is rather low for the majority of GayFolk.
I've lived in "The Castro" (Eureka Valley) for 23 years...and it seems
to be overrun by mostly underedeucated gay men...whose idea of a good
time is getting drunk to the gills and sticking a fist up someone's
asshole (or their own). I know this is actually a minority--just
highly visible--and does not represent the majority of gay men across
the country. I also believe the era of the jaded urbanized gay male
is dead, and a new, more ethical force of gay women and men is rising
up throughout small-town and rural America.
Nevertheless, The Castro sucks for the most part, and has for many
years. It is not at all an area that reflects the lifestyles of well
educated people.
Eric Bohlman
all...@ranta.com wrote:
: Gay men are more highly educated that straights, thus they earn more
: money.
I don't believe anyone has ever found evidence that gay men are as a
group more highly educated than straight men. And there's a sociological
complication that would make doing research in this area difficult: some
men are attracted exclusively to other men, but identify themselves as
"straight" because they stick to "top" roles in sex. This sort of
identification turns out to be more common among less-educated and
lower-income men, which means that if you simply ask people what
orientation they are, you'll get a bias toward higher income and
education among those who identify themselves as gay simply because some
of the people at the lower end are calling themselves straight.
bbhe...@aol.com
> >money.
>
> than among straights...though I wish it were true. The income level,
> on average, is rather low for the majority of GayFolk.
>
> I've lived in "The Castro" (Eureka Valley) for 23 years...and it seems
> to be overrun by mostly underedeucated gay men...whose idea of a good
> time is getting drunk to the gills and sticking a fist up someone's
> asshole (or their own). I know this is actually a minority--just
> highly visible--and does not represent the majority of gay men across
> the country. I also believe the era of the jaded urbanized gay male
> is dead, and a new, more ethical force of gay women and men is rising
> up throughout small-town and rural America.
>
> Nevertheless, The Castro sucks for the most part, and has for many
> years. It is not at all an area that reflects the lifestyles of well
> educated people.
>
> ----------signature:
> I prefer public dialogue...no personal replies, please
> (except on request; will consider pen-pals).
> Private, hostile comments will be re-posted in public.
Well it's easy to see what side of the tracks you are from, Mary. The
gays I know are mainly upwardly mobile professionals. And research
shows gay men to have 'higher disposable income' than straight men.
Ezekiel Krahlin
On Mon, 03 Mar 1997 17:59:43 -0500, bbhe...@aol.com said:
>Ezekiel Krahlin wrote:
>> That's a stereotype...I don't see the education as being any greater
>> than among straights...though I wish it were true. The income level,
>> on average, is rather low for the majority of GayFolk.
>> Nevertheless, The Castro sucks for the most part, and has for many
>> years. It is not at all an area that reflects the lifestyles of well
>> educated people.
>Well it's easy to see what side of the tracks you are from, Mary. The
>gays I know are mainly upwardly mobile professionals. And research
>shows gay men to have 'higher disposable income' than straight men.
You're just another status quo snob. They're the other end of the
spectrum I spoke of. The sicken me, too, for their elitism and hatred
towards their own gay sisters and brothers who do not own a home or
business, or a Mazeratti. They despise their own poor, they step all
over them: "Money first, gay second." Shiny patent leather shoes,
starched white shirt and fat tie, little Hitler fascists running their
nervous little shops. They vote against rent control, they jack up
the rents to ridiculous prices, kicking out gay residents because
they're not affluent. They spit on the homeless (many of whom are
homophile).
I'm from both sides of the tracks, and everywhere else. I've been
poor, I've been rich, I've been homeless, I've been emplyed, etc. On
one extreme are the drugged out fist fuckers...on the others are the
snobs, mama's boys. But both groups are cynical, nihilistic, selfish
boors.
You have no concern for the fact that the homophobic Bible thumpers
are perverting statistics by claiming gays are for the most part,
affluent. This is done to foment hatred, and make people think we are
demanding special rights, not equal rights. But you, ass-licker of
your elist peers, blithely ignore that central issue...which is part
of a blatant attack on every homosexual in this country. You are more
interested in flashing your wealth like a whore with silver bangles
'round her wrist.
Read the other posts: a lot agree that the majority of gays are *not*
the least bit affluent. I'll say no more.
---
(Hail, Athenia...brave new nation!)
Please keep our dialogues public; private mail by request only.
Hostile private replies will be re-posted in the public arena.
James N.Kelland
Loren Petrich wrote:
>
> In article <8571048...@dejanews.com>, <Lac...@webtv.net> wrote:
>
> > The Religious-Right & other anti-Gay forces have said
> >that one of the reasons why Gays & Lesbians do not need
> >civil rights protection is because we make too much money.
>
> I'm surprised that the ultracapitalist section of the right wing
> does not seem to have noticed that accusation -- because in
> ultracapitalist terms, homosexual people are more "successful" that
> heterosexual ones, and are more worthy people for that reasons. It's just
> like how some anti-abortionists accuse abortionists of the supposed sin
> of practicing capitalism -- where are the ultracapitalists who snicker
> about *that*?
>
> I suspect it is because the Republican Party needs the
> ultracapitalists' money and the Religious Right's votes, and it's only a
> common enemy that keeps them from each other's throats.
>
> [criticism of that premise...]
> Loren Petrich Happiness is a fast Macintosh
> pet...@netcom.com And a fast train
> My home page: http://www.webcom.com/petrich/home.html
Is there anyone out there who can me how I can get rich?????
Bonjour mon ami
Jon
geomc...@aol.com
Get off my dress (Bill Blass, of course) and lighten up. Just because
you're poor and don't read much in social sciences (thus don't know how
the numbers crunch), don't shoot off all over me. And I wouldn't be
caught dead in one of those pretentious Mazerattis; I drive a Volvo
wagon.
anima
> > You're just another status quo snob. They're the other end of the
> > spectrum I spoke of. The sicken me, too, for their elitism and hatred
> > towards their own gay sisters and brothers who do not own a home or
> > business, or a Mazeratti. They despise their own poor, they step all
> > over them: "Money first, gay second." Shiny patent leather shoes,
> > starched white shirt and fat tie, little Hitler fascists running their
> > nervous little shops. They vote against rent control, they jack up
> > the rents to ridiculous prices, kicking out gay residents because
> > they're not affluent. They spit on the homeless (many of whom are
> > homophile).
First of all, those statements are stereotypes themselves, which makes you a hypocrite.
Secondly, I'm sorry if you're bitter, but that really has no relevance on the dialoge.
Third, and finally, if you want to help the poor, then help all the poor, not just the
gay poor. Personally, I think a lot of homeless people are there because they put
themselves there, regardless of their sexuality, but I'll not address that at this time.
Right now I am going to address your statements.
Your point was something to the effect of "help your poor gay brothers and sisters get
rich like you." Well, by saying "help only the gays," you are guilty of the same class
distinctions you are accusing this other person of. You are dividing society along lines
(only this time its sexuality, not economic level) and simply creating more barriers for
everyone to transcend. Instead of indicting other people's opinions (which you obviously
didn't understand), why not try examining your own stance and correcting the hypocrisy
and contradictions within?
Now, as for voting down rent control and how that's an attack on gays....excuse me, but
WHAT? That's not a bit logical, and while many landlords have been known to ask tenants
to leave due to their sexuality, I hardly believe that any legislation dealing with
landlord control of their buildings is an attack on the gay community. You must be
incorporating some strange conspiracy that no one around here is familiar with - you
know, the one that says all gays inherently hate all poor people because they [the
poor] are all gay...uh, right.
Lastly, it is not necessary to resort to name-calling and cursing to get your point
across. You certainly wouldn't like it if a straight person came in here and started
cussing everyone because they're gay, so why cuss this poor individual simply because
they might be wealthier than you are? Don't you advocate "helping our gay brothers and
sisters?"
I won't even address the rest...this entire thread has become some sort of interpersonal,
argumentative mosh pit....
-anima
______________________________________________________________________
"If I had no sense of humor, I would long ago have committed suicide."
-Mahatma Gandhi
"Slash and burn, return, listen to yourself churn."
-REM, It's the End of the World As We Know It (And I Feel Fine)
"Thank you for shopping/In my head."
-Stephen K. Z. Brust, Attention Shoppers
_______________________________________________________________________
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Ward Stewart
pet...@netcom.com (Loren Petrich) wrote:
>In article <5fcomn$8...@nuhou.aloha.net>, Ward Stewart <wste...@hi.net> wrote:
>>>Ezekiel Krahlin wrote:
>>>Gay men are more highly educated that straights, thus they earn more
>>>money.
>>If the above odd stuff about greater income and,
>>etc., should be true, one can only conclude that
>>Gays are smarter
>>Gays read more
>>Gays work harder
>>Gays stay in school longer
>>Gays make more money
>>Gays attend more theater and opera
>>On and on ---
>>Really terrible stuff that we do, we should ba
>>ASHAMED of our naughty ways!
> I'm surprised that the right-wingers are not hailing homosexual
>people as model citizens.
>--
>Loren Petrich
Aloha Loren --
You should never let anything that the right-wing
sillies have to say surprise you. --
This whole business of the Pat Buchanan populism
and the prating about the "elitism" of liberals is
so entirely screwed up that there is nothing left
to amaze.
Bank Presidents in Blue Denim overhauls!
They would seem to be able to fool themselves but
I have been arond the track too many times to be
suckered by that sort of stuff!
ward
PS Then, of course we have their frantic defense
of the constitution along with their efforts to
Bork the first amentment . WHAT a crew.
w
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Ward and George
40 years,
yet strangers before
the law.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Ezekiel Krahlin
On Wed, 05 Mar 1997 23:53:56 -0800, anima <an...@intellinet.com> said:
>> > You're just another status quo snob. They're the other end of the
>> > spectrum I spoke of. The sicken me, too, for their elitism and hatred
>> > towards their own gay sisters and brothers who do not own a home or
>> > business, or a Mazeratti. They despise their own poor, they step all
>> > over them: "Money first, gay second." Shiny patent leather shoes,
>> > starched white shirt and fat tie, little Hitler fascists running their
>> > nervous little shops. They vote against rent control, they jack up
>> > the rents to ridiculous prices, kicking out gay residents because
>> > they're not affluent. They spit on the homeless (many of whom are
>> > homophile).
>
>First of all, those statements are stereotypes themselves, which makes you a hypocrite.
I've met a lot of people in San Francisco who do a pretty good job of
living up to these stereotypes.
>Secondly, I'm sorry if you're bitter, but that really has no relevance on the dialoge.
Don't be sorry about my bitterness. It is one part of myself, which I
do not repress.
>Third, and finally, if you want to help the poor, then help all the poor, not just the
>gay poor.
No, that is not how I prefer to do things. I believe in further
instilling the Les/Gay community to move forward on helping our own
kind. This is to say, to model it along the lines of the Jewish
Community...which has a fin sense of support for each other. Fighting
the AIDS crisis is an excellent example of how we Hellenes have banded
together when the heterosexist society preferred to ignore us and let
us die.
>Personally, I think a lot of homeless people are there because they put
>themselves there, regardless of their sexuality, but I'll not address that at this time.
What a narrow mind you have. The majority are houseless because of a
vulgar economic system which wears a mask of "free market", though is
far more fascist than democratic any day. A large group are mentally
impaired (including Nam Vets suffering PTSD)...people who *used to*
have a social safety net that made it easier for these folk to
maintain some sort of roof over their heads.
>Your point was something to the effect of "help your poor gay brothers and sisters get
>rich like you." Well, by saying "help only the gays," you are guilty of the same class
>distinctions you are accusing this other person of.
Nonsense. I do believe that anyone who amasses considerable wealth
should use a chunk of that moola to put back into supporting those
less fortunate...the goal being to lessen starvation, poverty,
houselessness, no medical care, in our society. Some wealthy people
actually do that, but so many do not...totally greedy bastards.
You do not criticize other (non-gay) groups who specialize in helping
their own kind: Uhuru House, women's groups, Native American
gatherings, and so on. The moment I open my mouth in support of
GayFolk, I am accused of not caring for any other group! That is a
tactic of the homophobic right-wing...as well as ultraconservative
Hellenes.
>You are dividing society along lines
>(only this time its sexuality, not economic level) and simply creating more barriers for
>everyone to transcend.
Nonsense again. I don't have such power. I choose to focus on the
liberation of a particular group of people: The Lesbian/Gay
Community. We are so often rejected by mainstream society, that it
becomes even more vital for our survival and health to learn how to be
a more cohesive, supportive community among our own kind.
>Instead of indicting other people's opinions (which you obviously
>didn't understand), why not try examining your own stance and correcting the hypocrisy
>and contradictions within?
I am constantly observing my own perceptions, feelings, and
viewpoints. Else I wouldn't speak up with the confidence I possess.
>Now, as for voting down rent control and how that's an attack on gays....excuse me, but
>WHAT? That's not a bit logical, and while many landlords have been known to ask tenants
>to leave due to their sexuality, I hardly believe that any legislation dealing with
>landlord control of their buildings is an attack on the gay community.
Any minority group has the same problems with low income, poverty, and
consequential housing problems, especially discrimination and
persecution of the rich, to their own kind who happen to be poor. You
either misunderstood my point, or have twisted it around.
>You must be
>incorporating some strange conspiracy that no one around here is familiar with - you
>know, the one that says all gays inherently hate all poor people because they [the
>poor] are all gay...uh, right.
No, but I have seen plenty of upper and middle class elitism among the
gay crowd here in S.F....it's shameful. And I'd say the problem is
far more severe among the males, than females...just as it is in the
hetero world.
>Lastly, it is not necessary to resort to name-calling and cursing to get your point
>across. You certainly wouldn't like it if a straight person came in here and started
>cussing everyone because they're gay, so why cuss this poor individual simply because
>they might be wealthier than you are? Don't you advocate "helping our gay brothers and
>sisters?"
At the same time, I call a spade a spade. Helping someone isn't
necessarily coddling him or her. It may, however, help to confront
some narrow minded viewpoints. As far as a homophobe cussing me
out...well, I thrive on it...for the opportunity to get her/his
attention, and speak (or post) my mind. I wan't cussing him because I
thought he was wealthy...but I was reading his beads over his phony
elitism. He doesn't appreciate one whit all the sacrifices ACT-UP
people have done in order that he may live (hopefully) with better
medical treatments.
>I won't even address the rest...this entire thread has become some sort of interpersonal,
>argumentative mosh pit....
That's okay, "anima" (that's a Jungian term for the soul--the female
aspect to be specific). I never tell someone to go away, no matter
how much or how little they disagree with me.