ORIGINS OF LUCIFER AND SATAN
Clavicle
In this posting, I wish to address the subject
of Lucifer and Satan. This is the subject,
much talked about by christians and many
other religious and non religious believers
alike, due to questions about good and evil.
Christians often use this topic, to beat
non believers over the head.
Lucifer appears in the christian bible,
in Isaiah 14:12-15: How are you fallen
from heaven, son of the morning! How
are you fallen to earth, conquerer
of the nations! You said in your
heart, "I will ascend to heaven,
above the stars of God. I will
set my throne on high. I will
ascend upon the high clouds..."
But you are brought down to
darkness (Or the underworld
sheol), to the depths
of the pit.
If you continue and read the previous
verses, you see that Isaiah may be
referring to the King of Babylon,
and not the much touted spiritual
being, Lucifer. In Isaiah 14:3-5
we read: In that wonderful day,
when the Lord gives his people
rest from sorrow and fear,
from slavery and chains,
you will jeer at the King
of Babylon and say, "You
bully you! At last, you
have what was coming to
you! For the Lord has
crushed your wicked
power, and broken
your evil rule."
In the Hebrew Bible, and in modern
Judaism, Satan does not appear as modern
day christians have depicted him, as the
ruler of an infernal empire. In fact,
when he first appears in the Hebrew
Bible, he may not be evil, or opposed
to God. Instead, in the books of Job
and Numbers, he appears as one of God's
messengers and servants. In Hebrew the
word for this is (mal ak), or messenger,
translated into Greek it is (angelos).
In Hebrew, the angels were known
as "sons of God" (bene elohim),
and were thought of as great
armies, or the staff
of a royal court.
In biblical sources, the Hebrew name for
satan is translated as adversary. It is
not the name of a particular character.
Some Hebrew storytellers of the sixth
century B.C.E. described a supernatural
being known as satan, but they intended
this to mean any one of the angels,
sent by God, to block or oppose
human activities.
Early and latter day Christians and
Jews, used the name Satan, to label
their spiritual rivals. This happened
in the cases of the Gnostics, Pharisees,
and the Pagans. The author of the biblical
book of John, described a close group
of Jesus' followers, those that
followed his command to love
one another (15:12), while
labeling their Jewish rivals
as satans' spawn.
This same holy spiritual competition has
continued to this day. We have christian
preachers, behind the pulpits, and on
television, calling other religions
cults, and their members, the
deceived followers of Satan.
Some christian preachers will say anything,
even going so far as to tell lies, to discourage
people people from studying the occult, and to
discredit other religions. One preacher on the
christian trinity broadcasting television network,
made the statement that the God of the Moslem
faith is Satan. Another preacher, Mario Murillo,
said that he had met a famous Druid, and that the
witch had showed him a book, which contained the
photographs of people that he had cursed,
and that had died.
The holy spiritual competition has continued
since ancient times, and there is no end
in sight.
Clavicle
References: Adam and Eve and the
Serpent, and The Origin of Satan,
by Elaine Pagels.
The Living Bible, Self Help Edition.
--
Sometimes I wonder if we all have
a destiny, or if we all are just
floating accidental like, on
a breeze. Forrest Gump.
Robert Word
According to certain variants of Christian Theology, such as, for
example, the one set forth in the Apostle's Creed, the Son is seated at
the Right Hand of the Father. Unfortunately, that particularly
statement leaves it unsaid just Whom is seated at the Left Hand of the
Father.
Lilith V (the 5th)
If u want to no what i am replying to read below my reply...
REPLY:
Yes! i agree with you about that! It's amazing how ppl can bend and
stretch and twist words... no matter what their orginal meaning was..
like the word 'virgin'.. now.. in modern day .. when ppl are asked what
virgin means.. they will respond with ' untouched'..'pure'..etc..
whereas the orginal meaning was 'a person not owned by anyone' ... i
think that is the same case for 'satan'... Xianity has once again
stuffed up! oh well... and it is a shame that this will never end. I
just hope that Xians or the fundie ones like on those bible bashing
networks.. will be exposed for 'brainwashing'...or well at least ppl
will have more of an open mind..i guess i am dreaming..oh well..
Lilith V
--
/~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~\
"The journey can be long, the learning process hard
- but the benefits can be great!"
"WITCHCRAFT" magazine Issue1
http:/www.geocities.com/TheTropics/3672/
-0000-
Come to the Gold Coast-australia
++
++
+++++++++ R I P The Big Day Out 1997
+++++++++ R I P AUST. Alternative Fest
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++
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\______________________________________________________/
Cardinal Fang
Clavicle <bog...@earthlink.net> rambled on in the following manner:
>In this posting, I wish to address the subject
>of Lucifer and Satan.
>Lucifer appears in the christian bible,
>Clavicle
>References: Adam and Eve and the
>Serpent, and The Origin of Satan,
>by Elaine Pagels.
>The Living Bible, Self Help Edition.
In many respect the above writing is quite correct. The passage
from Isaiah most likely does refer to a Babylonian king. Likewise
Satan in Jewish tradition does not have all of the properties added on
by the Christians. It was the Greek influence of the early Christians
that has given the Modern Satan most of his characteristics. It is a
property of Greek philosophy that earthly matter is considered impure
while the heavens are perfect and incoruptable. This is why
Copernicus' planetary model was incorrect. He described the orbits of
the planets as perfectly circular. He believed in the perfection of
the heavens and since a circle is the most perfect shape heavenly
bodies must obviously move in that fasion. Later Kepler changed the
orbits to elipses and the model worked, however by Greek tradition the
heavens are insubstantial and perfect while Earth is made of matter
and is corrupt. This duality influenced early Christian thinkers.
The letters an epistles of Paul describe Satan as "The Prince of The
World". In the Gospels, where Satan tempts Jesus and offers him all
of the kingdoms of the world, Jesus does not deny Satans ability to
give him these kingdoms.
The early Catholics were regarded as a cult (they were a cult)
and were persecuted by the political powers of the world, primarily
Rome. The Catholics ascribed their persecution to the power of Satan,
who, being Prince of the World, was directing his earthly subjects
(politicians) to exterminate them. The Roman Ceaser Nero is the Great
Beast 666 of Revelations. He was characterized as the Antichrist,
Satan's chief agent on Earth. By the medieval period the concept of
Satan as the enemy of God was firmly ingrained in the minds of the
educated as well as the peasentry.
There is a book titled Fallen Angels by Bernard Bamberger. In
it he goes on at length about Satan, Lucifer and all the assorted
devils mentioned in scripture and tradition, from the Apocrypha to the
Zohar, from church fathers to the modern era.
`````````````````````````````````````````
Cardinal Fang
__....__
.' /\ '.
:____/__\____:
: '-./ \.-' : 5is...@pipeline.com
: / '..' \ :
: /.-' '-.\ :
'. .'
''----''
When the Devil quotes Scriptures, it's not, really, to deceive,
but simply that the masses are so ignorant of theology that somebody
has to teach them the elementary texts before he can seduce them.
-Paul Goodman (1911–72), U.S. author, poet, critic.
Raymond Brunner
>
>Lucifer appears in the christian bible,
>in Isaiah 14:12-15: How are you fallen
>from heaven, son of the morning!
The "son of the morning" is (of course) Phosphorus the light bringer.
Befor the Greeks (commonly known for drinking wine and a peculiar sex act) realized
that Phosphorus and Hesperus were indeed one planet (Venus), they named the "star"
rising in the eastern dawn Lucifer.
Those of you who have a bible (the christian version, preferable removed from a
cheap, piss smelling hotel room) may wish to read Revelation 22:16- "I Jesus have
sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and
the offspring of David, and the bright and MORNING STAR".
Not that any of this matters, for we all know that to argue with the irrational is
an arbitrary discussion at best. So please remember that the bible is a mockery of
life, and only life can enjoy the mockery of bible. (It's pages also bear a striking
resemblence to Ziggy blue roll-ezz, and don't toke all that bad with a bit-o-oil).
Ahmad
> >Lucifer appears in the christian bible,
> >in Isaiah 14:12-15: How are you fallen
> >from heaven, son of the morning!
>
> The "son of the morning" is (of course) Phosphorus the light bringer.
>
> Befor the Greeks (commonly known for drinking wine and a peculiar sex act) realized
> that Phosphorus and Hesperus were indeed one planet (Venus), they named the "star"
> rising in the eastern dawn Lucifer.
>
> sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and
> the offspring of David, and the bright and MORNING STAR".
>
> Not that any of this matters, for we all know that to argue with the irrational is
> an arbitrary discussion at best. So please remember that the bible is a mockery of
> life, and only life can enjoy the mockery of bible.
The mere existence of light gives rise to darkness, existence of truth
gives rise to lie, health to desease. Absence of one is the existence of
the other. Absence of good is the existence of Lucifer, Satan, whatever
you may call it.
Visit www.alislam.org for enlightenment or you may write to me too. Have
a good day. Sajid.
Ed Owen
Robert Word wrote:
:> According to certain variants of Christian Theology, such as, for
:> example, the one set forth in the Apostle's Creed, the Son is seated
at
:> the Right Hand of the Father. Unfortunately, that particularly
:> statement leaves it unsaid just Whom is seated at the Left Hand of
the
:> Father.
the Daughter? :-)
Ed Owen
--
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Ezekiel Krahlin
On Sat, 22 Feb 1997 08:02:16 -0700, Ahmad <sah...@micron.net> imparted
this delicious tidbit of wisdom:
>> The "son of the morning" is (of course) Phosphorus the light bringer.
>>
>> Befor the Greeks (commonly known for drinking wine and a peculiar sex act) realized
^^^^^^^^^^^^
I enjoyed your explanations, but, pray tell: what is this peculiar
sex act you refer to? I'm all ears!
To reach me, remove "_Z" from my e-mail address.
Rassy
In article <3310979b...@news.wco.com>, Ezekiel Krahlin
<ekra...@fog.net_Z> writes
peculiar about that??
--
Rassy
Step through the Crystal Gateway at http://www.rassy.demon.co.uk
Matthew Snyder
Humans are made in the image of God/ess right, i am human and i have
both good and bad thoughts/actions, so shouldnt God/ess
(common sense, or insane rambling from my mind, who knows?)
On Sat, 22 Feb 1997 08:02:16 -0700, Ahmad <sah...@micron.net> wrote:
>> >Lucifer appears in the christian bible,
>> >in Isaiah 14:12-15: How are you fallen
>> >from heaven, son of the morning!
>>
>> The "son of the morning" is (of course) Phosphorus the light bringer.
>>
>> Befor the Greeks (commonly known for drinking wine and a peculiar sex act) realized
MARGARET MARY-THERESA BROWN, SUNY BUFFALO
In article <5elsj2$soc$1...@carrera.intergate.bc.ca>, Raymond Brunner <bru...@intergate.bc.ca> writes:
>>
>>Lucifer appears in the christian bible,
>>in Isaiah 14:12-15: How are you fallen
>>from heaven, son of the morning!
>
>The "son of the morning" is (of course) Phosphorus the light bringer.
> So please remember that the bible is a mockery of
>life, and only life can enjoy the mockery of bible. (It's pages also bear a
>striking resemblence to Ziggy blue roll-ezz, and don't toke all that bad
>with a bit-o-oil).
I consider the bible to be an important cultural, mystical and magickal
text. Yes, I have smoked it too, and as you say it works quite well, but
I did not do it as a mockery, only out of necessity. Whenever I read
someone going off on a fundamentalist bible rant I secretly think to
myself that they be high on smoking the bible. But don't let them get
to you, the bible is a very worthwhile book for a mage, though the pov
and interpretation is likely to be quite different from that of a
fundamentalist. Smoking it is an apt rite for remembering the light-
bearer.
- Peggy -
vice
From what I understand the word "satan" in ancient Hebrew meant
adversary. An adversary for good or evil. In the story of Job Lucifer
was Job's satan. Only in the European middle ages was lucifer given
this evil personality. It is interesting to note that in the bible no
mention of hoofs and horns are made in reference to a satan. That
little detail was added by monks incorporating the pagan god Pan's
likeness for the devil.
Rofocale De Angeles
Raymond Brunner <bru...@intergate.bc.ca> writes:
>
>>
>>Lucifer appears in the christian bible,
>>in Isaiah 14:12-15: How are you fallen
>>from heaven, son of the morning!
>
>The "son of the morning" is (of course) Phosphorus the light bringer.
>
act) realized
>that Phosphorus and Hesperus were indeed one planet (Venus), they
named the "star"
>rising in the eastern dawn Lucifer.
Uhm my friend.
Not to cut you down but speaking as the authorative figure on
Lucifer(unless anyone wishes to contend me) I must say "no"
Lucifer was a Roman "God of the Dawn"
His mention in Isaih just goes to show how one man's poetic
deciphering of the bible is not necesarily a paradoxal enigma.
Lucifer as the fallen angel is real to a point. However he has a
different name..one that most people could never pronounce so we refer
to him as Lucifer even though it's a gross misunderstanding.
Rofocale
Simon Richardson
Rofocale De Angeles (be...@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
> Raymond Brunner <bru...@intergate.bc.ca> writes:
> >
> >>
> >>Lucifer appears in the christian bible,
> >>in Isaiah 14:12-15: How are you fallen
> >>from heaven, son of the morning!
> >
> >The "son of the morning" is (of course) Phosphorus the light bringer.
> >
> >Befor the Greeks (commonly known for drinking wine and a peculiar sex
> >act) realized that Phosphorus and Hesperus were indeed one planet
> >(Venus), they named the "star" rising in the eastern dawn Lucifer.
> Uhm my friend.
> Not to cut you down but speaking as the authorative figure on
> Lucifer(unless anyone wishes to contend me) I must say "no"
> Lucifer was a Roman "God of the Dawn"
Like "Aurora"?
> His mention in Isaih just goes to show how one man's poetic
> deciphering of the bible is not necesarily a paradoxal enigma.
In Latin, "lucifer" (small 'L') means "light-bringer". The translation of
the Bible into Latin then English almost certainly resulted in the Isiah
problem. The notion of the morning star (Venus) being "the light-bringer"
seems easy to understand.
Therefore the name "Lucifer" might be considered a title, rather than a
personal name. A title for a planet, for an angel, or for a match.
> Lucifer as the fallen angel is real to a point. However he has a
> different name..one that most people could never pronounce so we refer
> to him as Lucifer even though it's a gross misunderstanding.
Is this other name you are referring to a personal name? Or another title -
perhaps in a different language?
Simon
---
"This too is meaningless, a chasing after the wind" -Ecclesiastes 4:16
si...@onechip.co.uk | Not affiliated to any religion
si...@lucid.co.uk | Not affiliated to any politics
H (+44/0)1784 431998 | Not affiliated to any ideology
W (+44/0)1784 434568 (GMT/BST) | What does that make me?
"I have been asked to point out, as if you couldn't guess, that my rantings
are not the opinions of One Chip Solutions. So now you know, don't you..?"
D.
Rofocale De Angeles wrote:
> Not to cut you down but speaking as the authorative figure on
> Lucifer(unless anyone wishes to contend me) I must say "no"
uh? You're a WHAT? Did I miss something here?
> Lucifer as the fallen angel is real to a point. However he has a
> different name..one that most people could never pronounce so we refer
> to him as Lucifer even though it's a gross misunderstanding.
I would like to at least SEE this name in print before someone
decides it is too hard to pronounce. There is little in the world
anymore that is too hard for the normal person.
D.
Cardinal Fang
vice <d...@mailbox.syr.edu> rambled on in the following manner:
Correctomundo, mostly. I wouldn't say that satan was ever
depicted as an adversary of evil though. Another translation for
satan is "accuser", which in the Old Testament is closer to Satan's
role. He is sort of like the prosecuting attorney in God's court. If
anybody sins or breaks God's law Satan is the first to shout about it.
He will also stoop to entrapment.
The early church fathers started the identification of foreign
gods with fallen angels and satan during the early persecutions of the
Catholics (Rome, Nero, etc). Since Satan was the Prince of the World
(see my post from 2-20) the (political) powers of the world that were
set against them were doubtlessly motivated by the Fallen. From this
all pagan gods became identified with devils. Satan picked up horns
and hooves as the church spread through Europe. (Pan was very
influential on this, but virtually all European fertility gods have
horns)
Rofocale De Angeles
In <3312d...@lon-news.aspen-internet.net>
si...@orac.office.onechip.co.uk (Simon Richardson) writes:
>
>Rofocale De Angeles (be...@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
>> Raymond Brunner <bru...@intergate.bc.ca> writes:
>> >
>> >>
>> >>Lucifer appears in the christian bible,
>> >>in Isaiah 14:12-15: How are you fallen
>
>Like "Aurora"?
Yes, like but NOT Aurora.
In Greek and Roman mythology there are MANY MANY MANY gods and alot
share the same "title"
>
>Therefore the name "Lucifer" might be considered a title, rather than
a
>personal name. A title for a planet, for an angel, or for a match.
>
>
>> Lucifer as the fallen angel is real to a point. However he has a
>> different name..one that most people could never pronounce so we
refer
>> to him as Lucifer even though it's a gross misunderstanding.
>
>Is this other name you are referring to a personal name? Or another
title -
>perhaps in a different language?
>
>
>Simon
>
Personal. Btw Lucifer isn't a TITLE. SATAN IS...Lucifer refers
to the angel Los.
Los is who *I* consider Lucifer.
However I point out that Satan and Lucifer are two entirely
separete angels in both angeology and actual religion.
I know you'll want a source so here it is.
Vala (The four Zoas), Blake
and in Jerusalem.
kiss kiss
Rofocale
PS. Can I see one of your drawrings simon?
Ezekiel Krahlin
On Mon, 24 Feb 1997 07:01:04 +0000, Rassy <ra...@rassy.demon.co.uk>
imparted this delicious tidbit of wisdom:
>In article <3310979b...@news.wco.com>, Ezekiel Krahlin
><ekra...@fog.net_Z> writes
>>On Sat, 22 Feb 1997 08:02:16 -0700, Ahmad <sah...@micron.net> imparted
>>this delicious tidbit of wisdom:
>>
>>>> The "son of the morning" is (of course) Phosphorus the light bringer.
>>>>
>>>> Befor the Greeks (commonly known for drinking wine and a peculiar sex act)
>>realized
>>
>>^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>I enjoyed your explanations, but, pray tell: what is this peculiar
>>sex act you refer to? I'm all ears!
>>
>>To reach me, remove "_Z" from my e-mail address.
>Greek Love is another way of saying homosexuality.......so what's
>peculiar about that??
>--
>Rassy
Hi, Rassy. This guy, Ahmad <sah...@micron.net>, who referred to
Greeks as having peculiar sex, also has an Islamic web page. The
fanatic Muslims are every bit as homophobic as the Xian
bible-thumpers. So let me take the heat off of Salmon Rushdie, and
chant:
Gay Islam! Gay Islam! Gay Islam! Allah is Gay! Hail Homosexual
Allah! Allah shall soon vindicate all Lesbian and Thracian people,
world wide!
I'm so tired of all this homophobia, no matter where I turn. It seems
to taint just about anything anyone talks about, these days! Guess
since people live in fear, for the most part--and since these fearful
souls perceive a wave of right wing dogma engulfing America--I guess
they want to appease whichever side they believe butters their bread!
(So even our "progressives" are backing away from showing any sort of
support, sympathy, or positive recognition of queers. Example, Ralph
Nader: "I don't get involved in gonadal politics.")
(Gee, what if things should suddenly flip-flop, and these cowards and
turncoats are called to the carpet for their contributions to hate
crimes...and their buttered bread turns to blooded bread?) Ha! The
spell has been cast! Thank you, Gay-Allah!
----------signature:
I prefer public dialogue...no personal replies, please
(except on request; will consider pen-pals).
Private, hostile comments will be re-posted in public.
Shez
In article <5f03gj$s...@camel2.mindspring.com>, Cardinal Fang
<5is...@pipeline.com> writes snip
> Correctomundo, mostly. I wouldn't say that satan was ever
>depicted as an adversary of evil though. Another translation for
>satan is "accuser", which in the Old Testament is closer to Satan's
>role. He is sort of like the prosecuting attorney in God's court. If
>anybody sins or breaks God's law Satan is the first to shout about it.
>He will also stoop to entrapment.
> The early church fathers started the identification of foreign
>gods with fallen angels and satan during the early persecutions of the
>Catholics (Rome, Nero, etc). Since Satan was the Prince of the World
>(see my post from 2-20) the (political) powers of the world that were
>set against them were doubtlessly motivated by the Fallen. From this
>all pagan gods became identified with devils. Satan picked up horns
>and hooves as the church spread through Europe. (Pan was very
>influential on this, but virtually all European fertility gods have
>horns)
>
>`````````````````````````````````````````
>Cardinal Fang
> __....__
Hmm we have long had a saying in this country "The Devils Advocate"
meaning someone who will argue against almost anything mostly for the
fun of it.
I wonder if it came from the the satan myth of being literaly an
advocate.
--
Shez sh...@oldcity.demon.co.uk
The 'Old Craft' lady http://www.oldcity.demon.co.uk/
------------------------------------------------------------------
Palin
Hello my name is simon, and I like to do drawrings! ha ha ha!
May the wind be always at your back
Palin
P.S. good one rofocale!
In <5f15ql$n...@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com> be...@ix.netcom.com(Rofocale
Gerry Palo
In article <TQjmQiBH...@oldcity.demon.co.uk>,
Shez <sh...@oldcity.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>Hmm we have long had a saying in this country "The Devils Advocate"
>meaning someone who will argue against almost anything mostly for the
>fun of it.
>I wonder if it came from the the satan myth of being literaly an
>advocate.
It is not the Devil as advocate but the Devil's advocate. I think it
originated with the idea that when someone died one of his servants, a
lawyer to be sure, would argue before the court of God why his soul should
belong to him. The Devil is the great accuser, and he argues, as or
through his advocate, the case for his possession of the sinner's soul.
Who, then is the advocate for the sinner? Since the idea came from
Christian tradition, probably medieval, the answer should be clear.
Sorry I don't have a concrete reference.
--
----------------------------------------------------------
Gerry Palo Denver, Colorado
pa...@netcom.com
lock...@dialnet.net
may I offer a reply to the Devils Advocate??
Look in the Catholic Church procedue for canozing (SP) a saint.
The first investigative team sent gets all the good info this person
did, both before and after the death. The sSECOND group sent out is
the Devils Advocate. They try to prove EVERYTHING COULD NOT BE TRUE.
IT COULD NOT HAVE HAPPENED,THIS PERSON DOES NOT DESERVE TO BE A SAINT.
If they prove their facts, the person is denied sainthood. Anyway,
since they are working "against" the Church, they must be working for
who??? The devil..ergo, they are devils advocates.
Someone in the Catholic church please check this. I am not catholic.
Shez
In article <331627ae...@206.65.248.4>, lock...@dialnet.net writes
Now that rings a bell, I do beleive I have read something along those
lines, that the person being put forward as a Saint , has both an
advocate of God and an Advocate of the Devil.
Thank you. I will research that.
rchristi
In article <33140d15...@news.wco.com>, Ezekiel Krahlin
<Chief_T...@Athenia.New> writes
>>>>> Befor the Greeks (commonly known for drinking wine and a peculiar sex act)
>>>realized
>>>sex act you refer to? I'm all ears!
>>peculiar about that??
>Greeks as having peculiar sex, also has an Islamic web page. The
>fanatic Muslims are every bit as homophobic as the Xian
>bible-thumpers. So let me take the heat off of Salmon Rushdie, and
>chant:
>Gay Islam! Gay Islam! Gay Islam! Allah is Gay! Hail Homosexual
>Allah! Allah shall soon vindicate all Lesbian and Thracian people,
>world wide!
According to my off-line reader, the poster was not Ahmad, but Raymond
Brunner <bru...@intergate.bc.ca>.
Ahmad quoted him.
RC
Spinner & Crisis, an exploration of 64-year and related cycles in history, at:
http://web.1-888.com/Spinner
http://www.robchris.demon.co.uk/Spinner
Scott Baker
be...@ix.netcom.com(Rofocale De Angeles) wrote:
The book by Elaine Pagels helps clear up a lot of the confusion out
there and consolidates a lot of information in a concise form. Of
course, I don't really care about satan (I don't believe there is such
a thing), but knowing where and how other people got their beliefs is
very useful.
--
Scott Baker (send me email using the word "meow")
fre...@tln.net
Find out if you're a Libertarian
by taking a free quiz at http://www.lp.org
Merry meet, merry part, merry meet again.
....And luck be your lover until we meet again.
nocTifer
49970303 AA1 Hail Satan! (Newsgroups: header solidified)
the origins of these two terms stem way back in time, the first
(Lucifer) being possibly older by virtue of connection to the
planet Venus (bringer of dawn or light), the latter (Satan)
being an ascription of opposition (adversary) applied in various
contexts and attitudes by a variety of people.
Raymond Brunner <bru...@intergate.bc.ca>(?):
#>#># Lucifer appears in the christian bible, in Isaiah 14:12-15:
#>#># How are you fallen....
indeed, referring to the King of Babylon. read the context.
si...@orac.office.onechip.co.uk (Simon Richardson):
>>Therefore the name "Lucifer" might be considered a title, rather than a
>>personal name. A title for a planet, for an angel, or for a match.
it was a nickname and became a name and nickname, though completely
illogical given the usual associations with Satan (who is more often
called the Prince of Darkness otherwise).
Rofocale De Angeles (be...@ix.netcom.com):
#># Lucifer as the fallen angel.... has a different name..one that
#># most people could never pronounce so we refer to him as Lucifer
#># even though it's a gross misunderstanding.
hehehe, suuuuuuuuuuure. like Cthulhu or something? c'mon, try and
spell it for us.
be...@ix.netcom.com (Rofocale De Angeles):
# ...Lucifer isn't a TITLE. SATAN IS...Lucifer refers to the angel Los.
I"m not saying y'all are wrong, but there is a diversity of usage out
there, and both of these are used as nouns, pronouns and nicknames,
sometimes offices.
# Los is who *I* consider Lucifer.
I think you're playing chaos with the city of angels, though your name
does sound familiar. where's that (Rofocale) from? why do you consider
'Los' to be Lucifer?
# However I point out that Satan and Lucifer are two entirely
# separete angels in both angeology and actual religion.
angelology: depending on the source this is at times true and at
times false, and therefore your claim is overstated.
religion: Christianity varies on this point of course, and sometimes
associates 'the two', sometimes considers them to be the
same essential being. Satanism tends to equate them as
condemnatory titles co-opted and utilized since their origins.
# Vala (The four Zoas), Blake and in Jerusalem.
Blake is a wonderful source on Satan and Lucifer, but not the only
perspective available.
nocTifer
ty...@houseofkaos.abyss.com
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Larry Allen
nocTifer wrote:
>
> 49970303 AA1 Hail Satan! (Newsgroups: header solidified)
>
> the origins of these two terms stem way back in time, the first
> (Lucifer) being possibly older by virtue of connection to the
> planet Venus (bringer of dawn or light), the latter (Satan)
> being an ascription of opposition (adversary) applied in various
> contexts and attitudes by a variety of people.
Why is it that learned people still pontificate as though the Jewish &
Christian religions started theology? Any true scholar of divinity knows
that religion began when communication began, as entertainment around
the fire and as a means of establishing status and authority.
One of the most ancient concepts is that of opposition eg. yen and yang.
There has always been some personification of evil, as an opposite of
virtue. Plus, there has always been the concept of banishment,
expulsion, or excommunication as a punishment. All religions use this in
their myths to illustrate the effect of being banished, thereby giving
rise to fleshing out heaven and hell as afterlife punishment. Of course
each needs a 'boss' because early societies were not viable unless there
was a person who commanded, and defined rules of conduct.
The reason we have multiple entities for both personifications is the
product of competing cultures and changes in myth over time, but
basically the Satanic person is the overlord of the place of banishment
while Lucifer identifies the personification of the person cast out for
sin. Why this gets so convoluted for most people is amazing.
Des Kavanagh
Satin is the name of the Islamic Adversary of Allah; Lucifer that of the
Christian Adversary: Both derive from Mithraism and for all I know, all
three from Judaism. Please excuse my levity but what in hell has this
thread got to do with Paganism? Satin, Lucifer and Ahriman are
monotheistic constructs.
Chiller
In article <331CA5...@earthlink.net>, Larry Allen
<lar...@earthlink.net> writes
A very nice exploration of human archetypes. Beautifully put.
One could extrapolate the argument to suggest that, inevitably, standard
"tribal" religion (which is what you are talking about here, in
essence), will collapse completely, as the archetypes no longer hold any
relevance for the majority of humans, ie tribes disintegrate. I wonder
what humans will dream up to replace it?
--
Chiller
jake stratton-kent
In article <tyagi.857443914@kudo20>, nocTifer
<ty...@houseofkaos.abyss.com> writes
93 sinister dudes,
>the origins of these two terms stem way back in time, the first
>(Lucifer) being possibly older by virtue of connection to the
>planet Venus (bringer of dawn or light),
okay so Lucifer is connected to the planet Venus - this is a matter of
occult tradition, but what does it mean? Just recently - at long last,
I've started to see wider recognition that the Pentagram symbol
originates with cultures like the Sumerians who were aware of the eight
year-five pointed cycle of conjunctions of Sun and Venus. This also
accounts for the 8 pointed Star of Ishtar. The Mayans based their
calendar entirely on the Sun-Venus cycle.
This cycle which traces a pentagram in the sky over eight years is
actually a double cycle, there are in fact two simultaneous pentagrams,
an upright and an averse. This is a curious connection with 'Satanic'
symbolism - but I am unaware of any 'Satanists' who are even acquainted
with the outlines of this 'tradition', let alone know what to do with
it.
<G> 'Luciferians' however, that could be another matter.
<snip>
>
>si...@orac.office.onechip.co.uk (Simon Richardson):
>>>Therefore the name "Lucifer" might be considered a title, rather than a
>>>personal name. A title for a planet, for an angel, or for a match.
>
>it was a nickname and became a name and nickname, though completely
>illogical given the usual associations with Satan (who is more often
>called the Prince of Darkness otherwise).
not so illogical if the ancient christians had an inkling of the Venus
connection....
<snip>
>I think you're playing chaos with the city of angels, though your name
>does sound familiar. where's that (Rofocale) from? why do you consider
>'Los' to be Lucifer?
>
If it sounds familiar then you must have heard of Lucifuge Rofocale
somewhen, (Lucifuge = Flees the light, it is an insulting pun, just like
Astaroth is an enemies twisting of the original name).
<megasnip>
L.A.Y.L.A.H.
In nomine Babalonis
93 93/93
Jake
Jerry
Chiller wrote:
> One could extrapolate the argument to suggest that, inevitably, standard
> "tribal" religion (which is what you are talking about here, in
> essence), will collapse completely, as the archetypes no longer hold any
> relevance for the majority of humans, ie tribes disintegrate. I wonder
> what humans will dream up to replace it?
Eventually people will have to start to learn the truth and speak the
truth. Eventually the religions of old will have to be replaced by modern
religions of truth.
Morgoth
Pentagram and like I would think comes from the idea of anything
not of God/Christ/Jesus/etc is the domain of Satan (the
Adversary).
With Satan (Shaitan) being a concept more than a actual being,
but people can handle beings more than cocepts. After all, why
did Jesus use parables? The average human can visualize something
better than words..
Larry Allen
Chiller wrote:
>
> In article <331CA5...@earthlink.net>, Larry Allen
> <lar...@earthlink.net> writes
> >nocTifer wrote:
> >>
> >> 49970303 AA1 Hail Satan! (Newsgroups: header solidified)
> >>
> >> (Lucifer) being possibly older by virtue of connection to the
> >> being an ascription of opposition (adversary) applied in various
> >> contexts and attitudes by a variety of people.
> >##########
> >
> >Why is it that learned people still pontificate as though the Jewish &
> >Christian religions started theology? Any true scholar of divinity knows
> >that religion began when communication began, as entertainment around
> >the fire and as a means of establishing status and authority.
> >
> >One of the most ancient concepts is that of opposition eg. yen and yang.
> >There has always been some personification of evil, as an opposite of
> >virtue. Plus, there has always been the concept of banishment,
> >expulsion, or excommunication as a punishment. All religions use this in
> >their myths to illustrate the effect of being banished, thereby giving
> >rise to fleshing out heaven and hell as afterlife punishment. Of course
> >each needs a 'boss' because early societies were not viable unless there
> >was a person who commanded, and defined rules of conduct.
> >
> >The reason we have multiple entities for both personifications is the
> >product of competing cultures and changes in myth over time, but
> >basically the Satanic person is the overlord of the place of banishment
> >while Lucifer identifies the personification of the person cast out for
> >sin. Why this gets so convoluted for most people is amazing.
>
> A very nice exploration of human archetypes. Beautifully put.
>
> "tribal" religion (which is what you are talking about here, in
> essence), will collapse completely, as the archetypes no longer hold any
> relevance for the majority of humans, ie tribes disintegrate. I wonder
> what humans will dream up to replace it?
> --
###########
Thanks for your comments. Does it not occur to you though that society has gone
through no changes in archetype, yet continue to believe in change? Prior to Darwin
we had a nifty basis: only man was like god and possessed a soul, so the permanence
was a function of godlike attributes. Now we try to be more secular but still make
distinctions like "animals have no emotions." I think the answer is embedded in our
need to identify - something we can hold onto over time.
For that reason I do not believe 'tribal' religion will ever collapse. Even if we
made positive identification of ET people, I feel certain that we would find some
way of rationalizing the new material without disintegration.
Renae Ransdorf
Shez (sh...@oldcity.demon.co.uk) wrote:
: In article <331627ae...@206.65.248.4>, lock...@dialnet.net writes
Actually, I don't think they use the adversarial system
anymore, but there did used to be a real "Devil's Advocate"
in the saint-declaring department of the Vatican.
Teinwyn "I always knew being an ex-Catholic would be
good for something" Arvel
Kristy Jean Halseth
Renae Ransdorf (renae@saratoga) wrote:
I found if very interesting to discover that the pope does not have to be
a male, catholic, priest or any ordained position. Legally, a muslim woman
could be pope. Legally, anyone here could be pope. God selects the pope.
"Theoreticaly"
--
Kristy -- Just had to add that tidbit for the fun of it.
--------------------
University of Idaho
CHILDHOOD
Within the nooks and crannies of my mind,
The child I still am
she does hide,
To live those memories
I do cherish,
Within the nooks an crannies of my mind.
Steven F. Scharff
What _I_ read was that the pentagram's points stand for Earth, Air, Fire,
Water, and Spirit. The top point stood for SPIRITUAL effects (Spirit
subjecting matter), and the downward point stood for PHYSICAL effects
(Matter subjecting Spirit).
Comments?
--
=======================
Steven F. Scharff <sch...@wizard.com> If returned as unsendable, forward
to <sfsc...@juno.com>
=======================
Visit my pitiful excuse of a website at
<http://www.angelfire.com/nv/scharff/>
=======================
Si Hoc Legere Scis Nimium Eruditionis Habes
=======================
hor...@islandnet.com
"Steven F. Scharff" <sch...@wizard.com> wrote:
>What _I_ read was that the pentagram's points stand for Earth, Air, Fire,
>Water, and Spirit. The top point stood for SPIRITUAL effects (Spirit
>subjecting matter), and the downward point stood for PHYSICAL effects
>(Matter subjecting Spirit).
My understanding of the pentagram is that it does not have an "up" and "down"
arrangement, as that adds an inappropriate dichotomy (Spirit vs Matter) to what is
supposed to be a perfect set of 5. Spirit is but one of the 5 elements, and is not
somehow "opposite" the other 4.
BB
Rob
--
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jake stratton-kent
In article <01bc2abe$8705fa40$7630d3d0@scharff>, "Steven F. Scharff"
<sch...@wizard.com> writes
>What _I_ read was that the pentagram's points stand for Earth, Air, Fire,
>Water, and Spirit.
93 Stephen,
LOL well surprise, surprise - I too have read that several hundred
times in different places! The recent origin of those ideas
unfortunately makes such repetition redundant - and symptomatic. ;-)
> The top point stood for SPIRITUAL effects (Spirit
>subjecting matter), and the downward point stood for PHYSICAL effects
>(Matter subjecting Spirit).
>
>Comments?
what you read about the pentagram is an idea that originated in the
'christian cabala'. It dates only to the period when some Renaissance
(or later) christian occultist figured out that inserting a (hebrew
letter) _Shin_ into IHVH (sort of) spelt Jesus in (sort of) Hebrew. This
idea was then carried on by the Golden Dawn in the 19th century 'Occult
Revival'. Valid enough as a 'construct' for practical work (yup, I too
perform pentagram rites!), but it is not the origin of the symbol, it is
a recent reworking of the symbol which is itself far older.
Occult symbols have been reinterpreted many times, those with a few
thousand years history behind them not least of all; recent newsthreads
on the origin of the pentagram have mainly focussed on the very recent
past. This not the posters fault necessarily, many 'occult authors' whom
they read are still regurgitating 19th Century ideas, unaware of their
more ancient significance. Works outside this supposed occult
'mainstream' attract ridicule from 'scholars' who are simply repeating
earlier speculation.
It is a popular notion that all occult secrets have been revealed. Sex-
magick is nowadays openly discussed, as is the role of 'Altered States
of Consciousness' in religion (involving drugs, yoga, fasting etc, all
physiological in nature) so it is easy to believe this to be true.
However it is not true, occult means 'hidden', and much of the
significance of the 'occult tradition' remains hidden from occultists
too. Until the mainstream of the modern revival looks past its
'revivalist' origins this is likely to remain true indefinitely.
BTW a Sun-Venus Pentagram news thread is coming up fast!
93 93/93
--
jake stratton-kent
Jasmine Taylor
Kristy Jean Halseth wrote:
> I found if very interesting to discover that the pope does not have to be
> a male, catholic, priest or any ordained position. Legally, a muslim woman
> could be pope. Legally, anyone here could be pope. God selects the pope.
> "Theoreticaly"
>
> --
> Kristy -- Just had to add that tidbit for the fun of it.
> --------------------
> University of Idaho
Do you have any verifiable sources for this?
Name me one female Pope.
Robb
I was raised Catholic, and I've heard stories that there was one at one
time. I think it was sometime real early in the origins of the church.
Also, to put in my 2 cents about Satan, he's nothing more than a
marketing plow by the church. He keeps people in line, and lining up
for the product the church sells "salvation/heaven." Philosophically,
why would Satan exist? A semi-divine being fighting against a divine
being? He'd never win.
Blessed be.
Robb
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Robb's Quote and Cool Site for the month of March
"I will walk along these hillsides in the summer underneath the sunshine
I'm feathered by the moonlight falling down on me." - Counting Crows
The Witches' Voice - http://www.witchvox.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
jake stratton-kent
In article <332149...@fl.net.au>, Jasmine Taylor <jas...@fl.net.au>
writes
>Kristy Jean Halseth wrote:
>> I found if very interesting to discover that the pope does not have to be
>> a male, catholic, priest or any ordained position. Legally, a muslim woman
>> could be pope. Legally, anyone here could be pope. God selects the pope.
>> "Theoreticaly"
>>
>> --
>> Kristy -- Just had to add that tidbit for the fun of it.
>> --------------------
>> University of Idaho
>
>Do you have any verifiable sources for this?
93 Dudes,
>
>Name me one female Pope.
Joan
93 93/93
P.S. okay so she is probably fictional, but she has the 'honour' of
giving her name to 'The High Priestess' trump in some packs (also called
the 'Papesse' I believe), was allegedly English and gave birth in
public. If anyone here has influence with God ask him next time make it
an English-speaking black woman called Babalon.
P.P.S. (Or how about Pope George-Ringo)
--
jake stratton-kent
Kristy Jean Halseth
Robb (fer...@pacbell.net) wrote:
: > > I found if very interesting to discover that the pope does not have to be
: > > a male, catholic, priest or any ordained position. Legally, a muslim woman
: > > could be pope. Legally, anyone here could be pope. God selects the pope.
: > > "Theoreticaly"
: > > --
: > > Kristy -- Just had to add that tidbit for the fun of it.
: > > --------------------
: > > University of Idaho
: >
: > Do you have any verifiable sources for this?
: > Name me one female Pope.
_______________________________-
To my knowledge, there has never been one, But I can probably get a list
of sources. I'll just have to pop over to the midevialist over in the
history dept. But, yes, there are sources. What I said was that there are
no legal requiremnts that a person must meet to become pope. But the
cardinals vote on pope and therefore do usually vote for one of there own.
The theory is that if God wanted a muslim woman to be pope, then it would
happen. It had something to do with an old way of voting that is no
longer used.
: I was raised Catholic, and I've heard stories that there was one at one
: time. I think it was sometime real early in the origins of the church.
: Also, to put in my 2 cents about Satan, he's nothing more than a
: marketing plow by the church. He keeps people in line, and lining up
: for the product the church sells "salvation/heaven." Philosophically,
: why would Satan exist? A semi-divine being fighting against a divine
: being? He'd never win.
This is true, the use of satan didn't really start to show up until the
early-middle middle ages. And then, he started out very much like a
trikster figure like Coyotee and Raven. Then he became a nore evil
sinister type persona.
: Blessed be.
: Robb
: --
: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: Robb's Quote and Cool Site for the month of March
: "I will walk along these hillsides in the summer underneath the sunshine
: I'm feathered by the moonlight falling down on me." - Counting Crows
: The Witches' Voice - http://www.witchvox.com
: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
--
Kristy
Dov Shmuel Freedman
Jasmine Taylor <jas...@fl.net.au> wrote in article
<332149...@fl.net.au>...
> Kristy Jean Halseth wrote:
> > I found if very interesting to discover that the pope does not have to
be
> > a male, catholic, priest or any ordained position. Legally, a muslim
woman
> > could be pope. Legally, anyone here could be pope. God selects the
pope.
> > "Theoreticaly"
> >
> > --
> > Kristy -- Just had to add that tidbit for the fun of it.
> > --------------------
> > University of Idaho
>
> Do you have any verifiable sources for this?
>
> Name me one female Pope.
>
I thought the legend of the perverbial Whore of Babylon was suppposed to be
a Woman who'd manuevered herself into position as Pope to lead the faithful
astray?
Dov Shmuel Freedman
A semi-divine being fighting against a divine being? He'd never win.
It seems that the concept of "better to rule in Hell than serve in Heaven"
is that eventhough Satan can't possibly win, He need to strive anyhow.
Sort of the idea "By G-d He deservse opposition, and I'm going to give Him
some".
Michael O'Brien
In article <332196...@pacbell.net>, Robb <fer...@pacbell.net> writes
>I was raised Catholic, and I've heard stories that there was one at one
>time. I think it was sometime real early in the origins of the church.
recall that the female pope was a woman impersonating a man.
She may or may not have existed in reality but the high priestess in the
swiss tarot deck is said to be representitive of her.
Krow
--
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Walter Five
In article <01bc2c14$1c3c1940$9c9973c0@dovfreed>,
Dov Shmuel Freedman <free...@netmedia.net.il> wrote:
>
>
>Jasmine Taylor <jas...@fl.net.au> wrote in article
><332149...@fl.net.au>...
>> Kristy Jean Halseth wrote:
>> > I found if very interesting to discover that the pope does not have to
>be
>> > a male, catholic, priest or any ordained position. Legally, a muslim
>woman
>> > could be pope. Legally, anyone here could be pope. God selects the
>pope.
>>
>a Woman who'd manuevered herself into position as Pope to lead the faithful
>astray?
No, there's rumor of a Pope Joan, i.e. a woman who disguised herself and
entered the priesthood, and eventually made it to Pope, I think Robert Anton
Wilson goes into this, as an aside in his argument about wether or not one
needs a Willy to perform the Transubstantiation of the Host, and the
semi-infinite member of God. I seem to recall another source that claimed
that she was one of the various Pope Johns, but that records of her Papacy
were expunged. Lucretia Borgia MADE several Popes though.
Blessed Beast!
Walter Five
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Dawnwalker
On 7 Mar 1997 07:17:20 GMT, "Steven F. Scharff" <sch...@wizard.com> wrote:
->What _I_ read was that the pentagram's points stand for Earth, Air, Fire,
->Water, and Spirit. The top point stood for SPIRITUAL effects (Spirit
->subjecting matter), and the downward point stood for PHYSICAL effects
->(Matter subjecting Spirit).
->
->Comments?
--
According to Victor Anderson, elder of the Feri community, the inverted
pentagram is symbolic of the horny one in his most male aspect.
--
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http://www.feri.com
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Kip Mussatt
Let's not forget the Catholic "knights of columbus" use the inverted
pentagram (I believe it's either them or the order of the eastern star)
Anyway, they (some xtian group) use the inverted pentagram as their symbol.
So perhaps they are not as "removed" from Satan as they think :)
-Kip
k...@netgate.net
hor...@islandnet.com wrote:
: "Steven F. Scharff" <sch...@wizard.com> wrote:
: >What _I_ read was that the pentagram's points stand for Earth, Air, Fire,
: >Water, and Spirit. The top point stood for SPIRITUAL effects (Spirit
: >subjecting matter), and the downward point stood for PHYSICAL effects
: >(Matter subjecting Spirit).
Nicole Shields
> : > Name me one female Pope.
> _______________________________-
> To my knowledge, there has never been one, But I can probably get a list
> of sources.
Have you ever read Elizabeth Gould Davis's "The First Sex"? Its a good
book...it mentions a theory or legend or something about one of the Pope
Johns...that it was actually a Pope Joan, a woman disguised as a man who
got to be Pope. But it may just be legend.
Stryder
Kip Mussatt wrote:
>
> Let's not forget the Catholic "knights of columbus" use the inverted
> pentagram (I believe it's either them or the order of the eastern star)
> Anyway, they (some xtian group) use the inverted pentagram as their >symbol.
You're right. It's the Order of the Eastern Star. They use an inverted
pentagram colored (funny enough) the traditional elemental colors
(blue=water, yellow=air, red=fire, black=earth) with Earth (black)
pointing down. It is "christian" in the same sense as Freemasonry is
"christian". I do know that they use a great deal of Egyptian
symbolism, but I don't know what their teachings of the symbolism of
their inverted pentagram.
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Laura Anne Seabrook
On 8 Mar 1997, Kristy Jean Halseth wrote:
> : > Name me one female Pope.
Wasn't there a medievil myth about a "Pope Joan" who was only discovered
when she gave birth while presiding over a ceremony. Of course this is
only a myth, no doubt propergated by the Church's enemies like the
protestant reformers.
> : Also, to put in my 2 cents about Satan, he's nothing more than a
> : marketing plow by the church. He keeps people in line, and lining up
> : for the product the church sells "salvation/heaven." Philosophically,
> : why would Satan exist? A semi-divine being fighting against a divine
> : being? He'd never win.
> This is true, the use of satan didn't really start to show up until the
> early-middle middle ages. And then, he started out very much like a
> trikster figure like Coyotee and Raven. Then he became a nore evil
> sinister type persona.
Hmmm, wouldn't satan have more to do with Ahriman too, who was the
opponent to Ahura-Mazda? Christianity seems to have inherited a lot of
stuff from Zorastrianism and such like religions of the middle east, and
never acknowledged the source. The physical appearance in the late middle
ages was a steal from Pan and the Horned God, in an attempt to vilify
them.
But it always made me wonder. If the Christian God is all-powerful and
all-knowing, how could a being like satan have any chance of success?
-Laura Anne Seabrook
Kirk Job Sluder
One of the things I have trouble wrapping my brain around is how do you
"invert" a symbol with radial symetry?
Perhaps my confusion is because I see the pentagram as one of those
quantum probability charts with any element being equally likely to occupy
any of the five positions at any point in time.
--
Kirk Job Sluder
csl...@indiana.edu
http://ezinfo.ucs.indiana.edu/~csluder/home.html
"Never clap your hands while holding a fountain pen."
Peter Stephen Thomas III
Kip Mussatt (k...@ng.netgate.net) wrote:
: Let's not forget the Catholic "knights of columbus" use the inverted
: pentagram (I believe it's either them or the order of the eastern star)
: Anyway, they (some xtian group) use the inverted pentagram as their symbol.
: -Kip
: k...@netgate.net
:
: hor...@islandnet.com wrote:
:
I've always heard, but don't have the documentation to back it up, is that
the modern use of the inverted pentagram as a symbol of
bad/evil/negativity, etc. was started by Levi and the Golden Dawn. Anyone
else know of this?
As for Neo-Pagan uses, the 4 lowers arms of the star represent the 4 mystic
elements, while the upright arm is the concept of spirit, which melds and
guides the lower 4 elements. Well, that's what *I've* been taught.
Different interpretations, different traditions.
*BB*
Peter Thomas
--
Bearhugs & Footrubs
"I'll lose my beard when they shave it from my cold, dead face!"
Quote from the Razor's Anonymous Handbook
Peter Thomas is p...@csd.uwm.edu B3/4 f+ t w- s r k+ (aka Freyr on IRC)
**************************************************************************
** FIGHT THE CDA!! DON'T LET THEM TAKE AWAY YOUR FREEDOM OF EXPRESSION **
**************************************************************************
jake stratton-kent
In article <5g6ks8$9...@uwm.edu>, Peter Stephen Thomas III
<p...@alpha2.csd.uwm.edu> writes
>Kip Mussatt (k...@ng.netgate.net) wrote:
>: Let's not forget the Catholic "knights of columbus" use the inverted
>: pentagram (I believe it's either them or the order of the eastern star)
>: Anyway, they (some xtian group) use the inverted pentagram as their symbol.
>: So perhaps they are not as "removed" from Satan as they think :)
>: -Kip
>: k...@netgate.net
>:
>: hor...@islandnet.com wrote:
>:
>
>I've always heard, but don't have the documentation to back it up, is that
>the modern use of the inverted pentagram as a symbol of
>bad/evil/negativity, etc. was started by Levi and the Golden Dawn. Anyone
>else know of this?
>
as I've said in this thread before, most modern magical 'traditions'
nowadays date from the 19th Century revival - and their interpretations
of the Pentagram are generally not much older than that.
>As for Neo-Pagan
now thats an honest handle, how about Neo-Hermetic too?
> uses, the 4 lowers arms of the star represent the 4 mystic
>elements, while the upright arm is the concept of spirit, which melds and
>guides the lower 4 elements. Well, that's what *I've* been taught.
this is a 'practical' interpretation, and like most such has little to
no connection with the origins of the symbol itself. That is not a
criticism, its a distinction.
>Different interpretations, different traditions.
as I say, most of these traditions are of very recent vintage, and as
practical syntheses are valid for a wide range of needs and purposes.
Its only when they obscure our view of the more ancient roots of that
tradition there is something wrong.
The origins of the symbol are with the earliest advanced astronomical
cultures who observed the fivefold pattern of Venus' conjunctions with
the Sun.
In Space of course there is no up and down, but nevertheless a pentagram
can be described as inverted, since the Sun-Venus cycle is a double
cycle, and the two Pentagrams formed by these inter-related cycles are
overlaid pointing in opposite directions. Hence one is inverted in
relation to the other. There is no moral distinction involved.
There is no grace,
There is no guilt,
This is the law -
DO WHAT THOU WILT.
Nico Cantone
Kirk Job Sluder wrote:
>
> One of the things I have trouble wrapping my brain around is how do you
> "invert" a symbol with radial symetry?
>
upside down and it has one point going down and two going up.
Neil Babra
it doesn't have radial symmetry you dork.
Mario Langlois
> > I found if very interesting to discover that the pope does not have to
be
> > a male, catholic, priest or any ordained position. Legally, a muslim
woman
> > could be pope. Legally, anyone here could be pope. God selects the
pope.
> > "Theoreticaly"
>
> Do you have any verifiable sources for this?
>
> Name me one female Pope.
>
There's one who stay less than 2 year's (maybe 1 year) beetween 200 and 500
after Christ (I dont have the exact date) I think its Saint Antere but i'm
not sure..
Sam Finlay
There's a simple solution to this silliness. Just go to any standard
encyclopedia ( mine is Colliers ) and look up, Pope. There was a
list of every Pope from St. Peter on w/ the dates of their reigns.
Sorry no women. There is not the slightest shred of evidence for
there ever being a woman Pope.
Sam
Helen Howie
Sam Finlay wrote:
>
> There's a simple solution to this silliness. Just go to any standard
> encyclopedia ( mine is Colliers ) and look up, Pope. There was a
> list of every Pope from St. Peter on w/ the dates of their reigns.
> Sorry no women. There is not the slightest shred of evidence for
> there ever being a woman Pope.
> Sam
Sam -
Funk & Wagnalls New Encyclopedia says the following:
JOAN, Pope, legendary female occupant of the papal throne. Her
"pontificate" is placed, in different accounts, variously in the 9th,
10th, and 11th centuries. According to one version, she was born in
England (or in Germany of English parents) and fell in love with a
Benedictine monk, with whom she fled to Athens disguised as a man.
After her lover's death she entered the priesthood, became a cardinal,
and following her election to the papacy as John VIII (for the actual
John VIII, see under John) to succeed Pope Leo VI (800?-855), died in
childbirth during a papal procession. The myth was first published in
the 13th century, by the religious writer Stephen of Bourbon (d.1261),
and was repeated by many writers in the following three centuries.
Given full credence by the church itself as well as the general public,
the story was first questioned by the Bavarian historian Johannes
Aventinus (1477-1534). Subsequently other writers, including the French
Calvinist theologian David Blondel (1590-1655), attached the myth, which
was completely demolished by the German Catholic theologian and
historian Johann Dollinger (q.v.) in 1863.
Helen
nagasiva
49970314 AA1 Hail Satan!
uncited:
>> : > Name me one female Pope.
>> _______________________________-
>> To my knowledge, there has never been one, But I can probably get a list
>> of sources.
Nicole Shields <nshi...@sophia.smith.edu>:
>Have you ever read Elizabeth Gould Davis's "The First Sex"? Its a good
>book...it mentions a theory or legend or something about one of the Pope
>Johns...that it was actually a Pope Joan, a woman disguised as a man who
>got to be Pope. But it may just be legend.
there is a long history of such a legend, however historically-based.
it is attached to the lore surrounding the tarot also, with some decks
being called 'the Female Pope' or possibly 'Pope Joan'. often this
is attributed to the High Priestess slot (II) if memory serves.
ty...@houseofkaos.abyss.com
nagasiva
--
see http://www.hollyfeld.org/~tyagi/nagasiva.html and call: 408/2-666-SLUG!!!
---- (emailed replies may be posted) ---- CC public replies to author ----
* * * Asphalta Cementia Metallica Polymera Coyote La Cucaracha Humana * * *
Werewomon
Has it occured to noone else that it's rather interesting the USAs highest
military award is also an averse pentagram? Perhaps used to command the
demon corraled in the pentagon? Nota bene; This award stands in
distinction above the various cross medals awarded by the respective
services.
yers trooley,
Molly duCoeur, Hierodule Emeritus
"My skin my bones my heretic heart
are my authority." -Katherin Madsen
Jasmine Taylor
Sam Finlay wrote:
>
> Mario Langlois wrote:
> > There's one who stay less than 2 year's (maybe 1 year) beetween 200 and 500
> > after Christ (I dont have the exact date) I think its Saint Antere but i'm
> > not sure..
>
> encyclopedia ( mine is Colliers ) and look up, Pope. There was a
> list of every Pope from St. Peter on w/ the dates of their reigns.
> Sorry no women. There is not the slightest shred of evidence for
> there ever being a woman Pope.
> Sam
Thank you Sam.
Case closed. Unless the Papacy does something extremely radical, I
cannot see that changing either.
Mario Langlois
Sam Finlay <sfi...@btg.com> wrote in article <33298F...@btg.com>...
>
> There's a simple solution to this silliness. Just go to any standard
> encyclopedia ( mine is Colliers ) and look up, Pope. There was a
> list of every Pope from St. Peter on w/ the dates of their reigns.
> Sorry no women. There is not the slightest shred of evidence for
> there ever being a woman Pope.
> Sam
>
Then Why does a lot of crossword puzzle has for question: Female Pope?
Well i got a kind of encyclopedia publish once an year (By grolier i think)
call "Livre de l'annee" Beetween 1978 and 1981 there's a sheet illustrating
the name of all pope. there's one that said: Legendary Female Pope
redcoat
I am sure the past centuries were no more less subject to 'urban
legends' than we are today. Most urban legends contain a moral judgement
or question in them somewhere (at least when they first start out). Such
a notion as La Papesse was probably one such legend. Its inclusion as a
Tarot card is more likely a 'jab' at the Roman Catholic Church, and an
attempt at humor on the part of the printer. Since the church has never
been known for its sense of humor, La Papesse was, undoubtedly, a
'modern' addition. However, regardless of the name of the image, the
image itself really never varied too much.
Alan Ross
The story of Pope Joan is recounted in considerable detail in the book "The
Bad Popes" (Dorset Press, copyright 1969, 1986). According to this book,
the legend of Pope Joan was produced sometime in the thirteenth century as
anti-papal propaganda. The story is that she began her career in a
monastery disguised as a monk and was eventually elected pope. She was only
discovered when she gave birth to a child during a procession. She died
shortly afterword from the shame and grief. I have also heard that this
legend is the reason why a newly elected pope sits on a throne with a hole
in the seat, similar to a toilet seat, with witnesses in a chamber below
who can examine the genitalia and testify that the pope is indeed male.
stephen tweed
In article <01bc3282$4bf647e0$27c4...@slip.net.slip.net>, Alan Ross
<ar...@slip.net> writes
>The story of Pope Joan is recounted in considerable detail in the book "The
>Bad Popes" (Dorset Press, copyright 1969, 1986). According to this book,
>the legend of Pope Joan was produced sometime in the thirteenth century as
>anti-papal propaganda. The story is that she began her career in a
>monastery disguised as a monk and was eventually elected pope. She was only
>discovered when she gave birth to a child during a procession. She died
>shortly afterword from the shame and grief. I have also heard that this
>legend is the reason why a newly elected pope sits on a throne with a hole
>in the seat, similar to a toilet seat, with witnesses in a chamber below
>who can examine the genitalia and testify that the pope is indeed male.
Hehe! That`s funny. Are you serious? I always knew there was something
funny about all those old popes.
?
\*/
/-\
@-@
--oOo-(_)-oOo--
the greenpen free spirit
net citizen
email ste...@greenpen.demon.co.uk
Have you forgotten yet?....
Look up, and swear by the green of the spring that you`ll never forget.
Siegfried Sassoon
March 1919
Marty G. Price
On Sat, 15 Mar 1997, redcoat wrote:
[snip]
> legends' than we are today. Most urban legends contain a moral judgement
> or question in them somewhere (at least when they first start out). Such
> a notion as La Papesse was probably one such legend. Its inclusion as a
> Tarot card is more likely a 'jab' at the Roman Catholic Church, and an
> attempt at humor on the part of the printer. Since the church has never
> been known for its sense of humor, La Papesse was, undoubtedly, a
> 'modern' addition. However, regardless of the name of the image, the
> image itself really never varied too much.
>
I'll skip the question of whether Pope Joan had actual historical
existence or exists purely as a legend --- I'm not an historian, and I'm
sticking to common knowledge in this reply.
1) The legends of Pope Joan, a Pope or Antipope of the Roman Catholic
Church, have a long, well-recognized existence.
2) A current popular book, offering a fictional life of Pope Joan, is
readily available from bookstores and libraries.
3) Some years ago, Lawrence Durrell wrote a fictional life of Pope Joan.
4) My Encyclopaedia Brittanica includes the article beginning: "Joan,
Pope, legendary female pontiff who supposedly reigned, under the title of
John VIII, for slightly more than 25 months, from 855 to 858, between the
pontificates of Leo IV and Benedict III. ..." The Britannica article
concludes that Pope Joan's existence was legend, not fact, but notes that
the Roman Catholic Church accepted her existence as fact in the 15th
century.
Again, I won't comment on the notorious ability of the medieval world to
create "facts," nor on the likely accuracy of the Britannica article's
conclusions --- I'm not a professional historian.
I will, quite testily (I guess I'm in that kind of mood), ask why, when I
glanced at this thread, I saw such a string of conjecture, when so much
information is so readily available?
Blessed Be,
Gale
Lainie Petersen
nagasiva wrote:
>
> 49970314 AA1 Hail Satan!
>
> uncited:
> >> : > Name me one female Pope.
> >> _______________________________-
> >> To my knowledge, there has never been one, But I can probably get a list
> >> of sources.
>
> >Have you ever read Elizabeth Gould Davis's "The First Sex"? Its a good
> >book...it mentions a theory or legend or something about one of the Pope
> >Johns...that it was actually a Pope Joan, a woman disguised as a man who
> >got to be Pope. But it may just be legend.
>
> it is attached to the lore surrounding the tarot also, with some decks
> being called 'the Female Pope' or possibly 'Pope Joan'. often this
> is attributed to the High Priestess slot (II) if memory serves.
The idea that the Female Pope/Papesse/High Priestess card has
connections to Pope Joan has recently been challenged by Barbara Newman
in her book "From Virile Women to WomanChrist". She argues that the
Female Pope/High Priestess card has its source in a heretical sect that
was patronized by the Visconti family. If anyone is interested, I will
dig out the book and give a more accurate report.
Lainie
--
. . .it is a scary experience to be bushwacked by the Living
God.--Philip K. Dick
Lainie Petersen
send mailto:epe...@nwu.edu http://www.petprojects.net/pers1.htm
Read my mom's book, EveryDay Matters:
http://www.petprojects.net/every.htm
Alan Ross
The story about the marble commode is probably as true as the story about
Pope Joan, but who knows? If I were Pope, I wouldn't want it to get around
that a bunch of dirty, old monks who hadn't had sex in decades had a chance
to leer at my family jewels ;).
Alan
> Hehe! That`s funny. Are you serious? I always knew there was something
> funny about all those old popes.
> ?
> \*/
> /-\
> @-@
> --oOo-(_)-oOo--
>
StoneOfAnu
You know, it's funny. I've always called Venus "Lucifer, star of the
morning" and felt very strongly about its position with the rising sun,
leading the sun upward into the sky, fading into the light. I wonder what
it means. Thanks for bringing up something I've always thought of, and
giving it value...I plan to research this and find out what it all means.
:D
blessed be,
Persephone
storme
Being raised Catholic, maybe I can shed some light on this "marble
commode". Part of the ceremony a new pope goes through is to sit on a
chair with a hole in it, as was described earlier in this string. No
one is learing at his genitalia---One man(I believe it is the duty of
the lowest ranking cardinal, or some such-my memory fails me there)
reaches up and touches the new pope's testicles.
Some have claimed that this comes from the whole pope joan incident.
The church claims that it is done to remind the new pope that he is a
man, and nothing more.
I persononally believe the pope joan incident actually occured.
Hope this sheds some light on things.
Storme
sto...@goldinc.com
A.Pe.S.
Neil Babra <bab...@andrew.cmu.edu> wrote:
>it doesn't have radial symmetry you dork.
Actually, yes it does. It does not have bi-lateral symmetry.
Mark Bassett
Haven't had sex in years??
Actually it is a well known fact that many priests and nuns are closet
homosexuals. The more you study the history of the church, the more you
realize how hypocritical all of it really is, and how they truly are
members of the black lodge. People can sleep forever as far as I am
concerned. "Humanity is the devil." We've doomed ourselves to hell. If
anybody wants to reply to this...don't reply to this address.
ANTISPA...@seanet.com
umm... it has bilateral symmetry, as well...
Slan agus Beannachtai,
Lugaid MacRobert
The enemy is fear. We think it is hate; but, it is fear..Gandhi
Net-Tamer V 1.08X - Test Drive
Alexander Maclennan
storme <sto...@goldinc.com> wrote:
Snip
> Some have claimed that this comes from the whole pope joan incident.
> The church claims that it is done to remind the new pope that he is a
> man, and nothing more. I persononally believe the pope joan incident
> actually occured.
> Hope this sheds some light on things.
I have seen it suggested that this inspection is to exclude castrates
such as Origen, this being an heretical approach to clerical celibacy
--
Alexander MacLennan sand...@sandymac.demon.co.uk
joshua geller
In article <n6D0...@sandymac.demon.co.uk>,
Alexander Maclennan <sand...@sandymac.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>storme <sto...@goldinc.com> wrote:
>Snip
>> Some have claimed that this comes from the whole pope joan incident.
>> The church claims that it is done to remind the new pope that he is a
>> man, and nothing more. I persononally believe the pope joan incident
>> actually occured.
>> Hope this sheds some light on things.
>I have seen it suggested that this inspection is to exclude castrates
>such as Origen, this being an heretical approach to clerical celibacy
there is more than a little controversy about the state of origen's
genitalia. being as he was an extremely popular theologian who was
later declared to be heretical, this may merely be slander.
josh
Alexander Maclennan
dcl...@best.com (joshua geller) wrote:
>> storme <sto...@goldinc.com> wrote: Snip
> josh
Oh isn`t religion fun.
--
Alexander MacLennan sand...@sandymac.demon.co.uk
Unknown
On 14 Mar 97 03:11:22 GMT, "Mario Langlois" <sarg...@accent.net>
wrote:
>
>> > I found if very interesting to discover that the pope does not have to
>be
>> > a male, catholic, priest or any ordained position. Legally, a muslim
>woman
>> > could be pope. Legally, anyone here could be pope. God selects the
>pope.
>> > "Theoreticaly"
>>
>> Do you have any verifiable sources for this?
>>
>> Name me one female Pope.
>>
>
>There's one who stay less than 2 year's (maybe 1 year) beetween 200 and 500
>after Christ (I dont have the exact date) I think its Saint Antere but i'm
>not sure..
>
Bizarre
Brian Thompson
Alexander Maclennan (sand...@sandymac.demon.co.uk) wrote:
: storme <sto...@goldinc.com> wrote:
: Snip
: > Some have claimed that this comes from the whole pope joan incident.
: > The church claims that it is done to remind the new pope that he is a
: > man, and nothing more. I persononally believe the pope joan incident
: > actually occured.
: > Hope this sheds some light on things.
<snip>
i don't know that anyone is interested but there is an extremely good
contemporary play by caryl churchill, written in 1982 called "top girls",
a character in which is pope joan - along with a number of other famous
and infamous strong, "deviant" women in history (herstory?).
peace.
brian.
--
yesterday is history, tomorrow's a mystery, and today's a gift - that's
why it's called the present.
Steven F. Scharff
A.Pe.S. <io...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in article
<332da108...@nntp.ix.netcom.com>...
: Neil Babra <bab...@andrew.cmu.edu> wrote:
:
: >it doesn't have radial symmetry you dork.
:
: Actually, yes it does. It does not have bi-lateral symmetry.
One point every 72 degrees? I'd call that radial symmetry!
Larry Jones
Masons should not be considered a Christian group. They acknowledge
whatever "God" is prevalent in the culture of the individual lodge.
McKim
Hi to all. I am posting for the first time. Last week, I met some
old guy gave a book called "Everything not true but it's the way
it it. The author was Bob Frisell and it was very fascnating book.
The book talks about the origin of human species, religions,
christianity and Egypt's Pyramid, Lucifer, and more. It has
good informations whether true or not that was very fun to
read. Unfortuneately he let me borrowed just an hour and tomorrow
I will buy the book. Most bookstore don't care one. So I guess
I have to shop. And I will post here more what I get out
McKim
athena
for us mathematicaly challenged, what is the difference between radial
annd bilateral symmetry? As far as I know symmetry iis if something is
the same on both sides...like a pentagram.
athena
Dave
Steven F. Scharff wrote:
>
> A.Pe.S. <io...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in article
> <332da108...@nntp.ix.netcom.com>...
> : Neil Babra <bab...@andrew.cmu.edu> wrote:
> :
> : >it doesn't have radial symmetry you dork.
> :
> : Actually, yes it does. It does not have bi-lateral symmetry.
> :
> One point every 72 degrees? I'd call that radial symmetry!
In two dimensions, radial symmetry (symmetry about the origin) means
f(r) = f(-r), or f(r,theta) = f(r,theta+pi). The pentagram shows
angular periodicity, but not radial symmetry. Why argue about
terminology?
Dave
Werewomon
Wrong again, all radially symmetrical objects possess bilateral symmetry.
Doesn't any one go to school or look anything up before engaging the mouth
(or keyboard?) F minus!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
yers trooley,
Molly duCoeur, Hierodule Emeritus
"My skin my bones my heretic heart
are my authority." -Katherin Madsen