Helms: Civil War, not Civility
Danny Oper
HELMS: CIVIL WAR, NOT CIVILITY
As if the gay community hasn’t patiently put up with enough from Senator
Helms. The "damned lesbian" remark. The "needing a bodyguard" remark.
Now, he announces that gay people "have the morals of alley cats."
If a U.S. Senator said that black men had the "morals of alley cats", most
of America would have little surprise if it led to instant rioting. No
justifications of the belief, no citing of statistics about black
incarceration rates, or illegitimate births, or rates of AIDS infection,
or drug use would make the least bit of difference. The reaction would be
shock, disbelief, and cries of outrage. The Senator, one way or another,
would be pressured out of office.
Have you ever once in your life read an editorial acknowledging that gays
are enduring provocations of a severity of which other minorities would
not even dream, in current times? Have you ever read an editorial
praising gays for their peacefulness in the face of such provocation?
The public at large feels that we have no grievance against them, because
most of them are not as extreme as Helms. At some point, however, the
public must be held accountable for being so jaded that outright
hate-mongering on the part of a U.S. Senator produces barely a stir from
them. At some point, the general public is to answer for the fact that
such a man has endured in his career for decades and risen to such an
elevated position as to be Chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations
Committee.
This has hardly been the only provocation out of the Republican Party and
the U.S. Congress. Congressman Bob Dornan has said such things as "Don’t
say the word ‘gay’ to me, unless you mean ‘Got AIDS Yet?", and "I wouldn’t
trust a homosexual with 5 dollars." Dornan associates with Dr. Paul
Cameron, who wants to put gay people in concentration camps, a fact which
the mainstream press has not even reported.
Never has the GOP leadership publicly rebuked Jesse Helms, or many other,
similar members of their party. Instead, House Speaker Newt Gingrich
actually encouraged Bob Dornan to stay on, when Dornan was contemplating
retirement.
Anti-gay bigotry is not the worst fault of Senator Helms. He complains
about the love lives of gays, but he himself is a lover of death squad
leaders. He praised Robert D’Aubuisson of the El Salvador Death Squads as
being a "deeply religious man." He was a personal friend to Augusto
Pinochet of Chile, whose regime used such torture methods as bayonets
shoved up the vaginas of women. He has a characteristic pattern of
support and friendship for right-wing militaries that engage in wholesale
killing and torture.
If Senator Helms has not committed violence personally, it is merely
because he has others to do his will. His hands are covered with the
blood of innocents, by the thousands, in South America.
Senator Helms is a threat to the lives and liberty of every gay man and
woman in America. He has previously introduced legislation that would
have denied gay people even their Social Security benefits. He is on
public record, stating that sodomy laws should be actively enforced, to
put us all in jail.
Belief in non-violent change implies a certain degree of moral conscience
on the part of the larger society. There has not been a single mainstream
paper to take the blatant hate-mongering of Helms seriously enough to make
editorial calls for his resignation. At most, they pretend that this
merely the "intolerance" of a grumpy old man, often acting as if it is an
almost endearing quality.
The word "intolerance" is far too weak for this situation. The word that
rightfully applies is "hate-mongering." It is not merely a "difference
of opinion." It is a deep cancer. It is the rough equivalent of a
Senator who says that Jews are the Seed of Satan. It cannot be tolerated,
period.
If this were still the Middle Ages, or if this were still Colonial
America, perhaps it would be more credible to advise the gay community
that we are not patient enough.
It is ironic that such people as Newt Gingrich, Robert Bork, and Clarence
Thomas are calling for "civility." Clarence Thomas is a friend to Rush
Limbaugh, who riles his audience with ridiculous stories about gays having
sex with gerbils. He says that "lesbians are mating with pigs to
perpetuate the species."
These comments are made in a context where gay people and lesbians are
getting murdered with regularity. More than 100 gay people were murdered
in Brazil alone, last year, not that this was a new item to the mainstream
press.
It is not true "civility" that the complacent of our society really want.
It is the comfort of a secure status quo, no matter how corrupt and unjust
the status quo. It is the superficial appearance of civility- a
reassuring facade where no one calls names, no one raises their voice, no
one frightens with images of a society about to come unravelled.
Politics, in this view, is a mere abstraction, a mere matter of
"disagreements". As long as you are polite in your phrasing, it matters
little what positions are held. If you shout "Kill the Fags", then you
are "uncivil." If you talk in high-sounding, lofty rhetoric, spouting
phrases like "millenia of moral wisdom", while you refer to ancient Roman
death penalties for gays, then this is "civil’, just like former Chief
Justice of the Supreme Court, Warren Burger. Newspapers will praise your
record, showing pictures of you surrounded by multiracial groups of
children. The President of the United States will lavish the highest of
praise on you, when you die.
I beg your pardon, Miss Manners. Civility cannot be divorced from social
justice. A civilized society cannot treat gay people as sex criminals,
any more than it can deny women the right to vote, or make blacks drink
from separate water fountains. It matters little whether the tone of
voice is calm or barking, the language vulgar or high-flown. Something
basic must change, or something basic must expect to fall apart, most
rudely, in due time.
Gay people keep assuming that if were are merely "nice" enough, and our
opponents are nasty enough, that surely the tide will swing in our favor.
Ever more, this idealistic assumption shows itself to be a delusion.
Right-wing figures such as Randall Terry of "Operation Rescue" and R.J.
Rushdoony openly advocate death penalty for gays. Yet, newspapers
continue to quote Terry as if he were a legitimate figure. Pat Robertson
of the Christian Coalition offered words of admiration and praise for
Rushdoony, and Bob Dole was willing to wave the hand of Pat Robertson in
the air, for all America to see.
Many gays are pathetically ignorant of such facts, due to the apathy
and/or censorship of the press. Nearly one of every 5 gay people was
foolish enough to turn around and vote for Dole, so duped were they by the
avalanche of propaganda. The first battle for gay activists is to educate
our own.
These conditions do not approximate a level of moral conscience sufficient
to justify peaceful appeal as a means of change. In the 1960’s, it was a
time for peaceful protest. In the 1860’s it was a time for a Civil War
that was a necessary chapter to our history, because it was a situation
too deeply sick to resolve itself in any other way.
For gay people, the times bear far more similarity to the 1860’s. This is
true because it carries no political stigma, to portray gays in such
dehumanizing terms, that we are viewed superstitiously as enemies of God,
destroyers of civilization, and as mere sex criminals. This is a very
poor starting point to sit down and reason together, particularly when
your adversaries will often proclaim quite proudly their contempt for
reason itself, preferring to confuse their faith in their own superiority
with a faith in God above..
This is not a situation calling for impotent expressions of verbal
protest. We must toughen ourselves both psychologically and physically,
and prepare ourselves for the grim sacrifices that we will need to make in
revolting outright against these conditions.
I make a suggestion to all members of the gay community who may be at
wits end in their lives, who maybe have lost a lover to violence, who are
slowly dying of HIV, or who may have wanted to serve their country, only
to have their careers ruined by a military witch-hunt. If you feel that
life offers too little to you, do not waste your exit from this world.
The word "revolution" should not be the property of smug and powerful
politicians.
There are far more uplifting ways that hatemongers like Senator Helms
could have been retired. He could have been voted out. The media could
have worked more diligently to expose his excesses and unsavory ties. The
Republican leadership could have muzzled and marginalized him. All
parties concerned were far too accustomed to his kind of hatred, to pay it
much notice. So accustomed have they become, that we must shake them out
of their sleep, by generating some unaccustomed reaction of our own.
Helms will neither be forced out by child-game antics like putting a
condom on his roof. There is nothing cute about this situation.
It would have been nice if we could put faith in long-term educational
efforts, but even these avenues are being cut off. Gay students are
allowed not even to meet. The very mention of the word in school
newspapers is censored. Any attempt to portray gay people in a positive
light, no matter how timid or innocuous, causes conservatives to scream as
if their children were being raped. You cannot educate when you cannot
speak.
Like facing up to the Third Reich, it is time to wake up to the fact that
there is no room left for trust, or for education. The only manner in
which a situation that this far-gone can be changed is by force. However
much the odds may be against us, that is nonetheless what we are called
upon to do. This is not the first-resort reaction of the immature. It is
a heavily contemplated and sad conclusion.
Take a good listen to the sounds of the packs of jackasses and hyenas on
this newsgroup. Does it sound like there is room for reconciliation, or
does it sound like the verge of apocalypse? It must be wisdom, not to
burn down God's mansion, but this isn't a mansion- it's an insane asylum.
Perhaps it is the worst madman to light the match, or perhaps the most
sane of the lot.
How sad to become just one more battling group, like the Hutu and the
Tutsi, caught up in the same mindless stupidity of violence, but how much
sadder still to put up helplessly with this degradation for century after
century, waiting for sanity that never comes.
Your marching orders should come from the ghost of every gay teenager who
ever jumped off a bridge, crashed a car, put a gun to their head, hung
themselves, drank paint thinner, stepped in front of a train. The
cold-blooded politicians who create this climate should themselves
experience no more gentle of a fate.
Tom Keske
Boston, Massachusetts
John Simpson
On 8 Feb 1997 05:06:18 GMT, dann...@aol.com (Danny Oper) said unto
us:
>As if the gay community hasn’t patiently put up with enough from Senator
>Helms. The "damned lesbian" remark. The "needing a bodyguard" remark.
>Now, he announces that gay people "have the morals of alley cats."
Would you please supply citations for this latest remark? Before
I take crayon in hand, I'd like to be sure of my facts (sure sounds
like something he'd say, though).
Peace,
John Simpson
fe...@mindspring.com
http://www.mindspring.com/~feste
============================================
"Foolery, sir, doth walk about the orb like the sun; it shines everywhere."
--Shakespeare, TWELFTH NIGHT
Ezekiel Krahlin
On 8 Feb 1997 05:06:18 GMT, dann...@aol.com (Danny Oper) imparted
this delicious tidbit of wisdom:
>I beg your pardon, Miss Manners. Civility cannot be divorced from social
>justice. A civilized society cannot treat gay people as sex criminals,
>any more than it can deny women the right to vote, or make blacks drink
>from separate water fountains. It matters little whether the tone of
>voice is calm or barking, the language vulgar or high-flown. Something
>basic must change, or something basic must expect to fall apart, most
>rudely, in due time.
Thank you, thank you, for really telling it like it is. It is clear
to me, that some pretty heavy stuff is going to fall on us, and soon.
There is no doubt that this nation is gearing up for a holocaust...and
homosexuals will, once again, be the scapegoats...at least, the first
scapegots.
>Gay people keep assuming that if were are merely "nice" enough, and our
>opponents are nasty enough, that surely the tide will swing in our favor.
I have divorced myself of such gay friends...they make me wretch in
disgust...they are like little Jesse Helmes. I have divorced myself
of my straight friends who pride themselves for their liberality...yet
scream in my face when I remark "I don't watch TV, because I'm tired
of constantly viewing the pointless affairs of white heterosexuals."
Most self-proclaimed liberals are also flaming homophobes, once you
scratch the surface.
>Many gays are pathetically ignorant of such facts, due to the apathy
>and/or censorship of the press. Nearly one of every 5 gay people was
>foolish enough to turn around and vote for Dole, so duped were they by the
>avalanche of propaganda. The first battle for gay activists is to educate
>our own.
Really true. Most gays don't realize yet how much we are hated...how
few friends we really do have! There is hardly any corner to go to
relax. Nor is any country in the world, as far as I know, truely free
of homophobia. Even Holland, Denmark, Sweden, etc. don't show movies
regularly, with starring lesbians and gays...such films are still
treated as "offbeat," "unusual", "different". We are really, very,
very much alone in this worl.
>
>These conditions do not approximate a level of moral conscience sufficient
>to justify peaceful appeal as a means of change. In the 1960’s, it was a
>time for peaceful protest. In the 1860’s it was a time for a Civil War
>that was a necessary chapter to our history, because it was a situation
>too deeply sick to resolve itself in any other way.
There was lots of violence in the sixties...not peaceful at all. Many
young man were shipped off to Vietname, never to return (except in
body bags). There was Kent State. There were the Watts Riots.
However, you point is well made, regardless.
>This is not a situation calling for impotent expressions of verbal
>protest. We must toughen ourselves both psychologically and physically,
>and prepare ourselves for the grim sacrifices that we will need to make in
>revolting outright against these conditions.
Like it or no, most revolutions for a better life, have been violent.
And our turn to revolt is just about due. If we don't win, then we
will become an inferior class...like laboratory mice, used by science
to test drugs and other treatment that will benefit life-longevity and
cancer cures for the white, capitalist, heterosexist and bigoted
two-percent power elite. They won't kill us off...but they *will*
keep us caged...for experiments to "benefit" the rest of (hetero)
humanity.
>Your marching orders should come from the ghost of every gay teenager who
>ever jumped off a bridge, crashed a car, put a gun to their head, hung
>themselves, drank paint thinner, stepped in front of a train. The
>cold-blooded politicians who create this climate should themselves
>experience no more gentle of a fate.
You're a brave belwether, Tom. My heart goes out to. I have dreamed
of this time...really, I've had incredible visions for many years
now...that a great rebirth of the human race shall be spurred by gays
and lesbians taking the torch and revolting! And I visioned a network
of us forming, and banding together...by an intellectual and spiritual
force that is almost psychic in its linking up.
I believe we will win...and I believe our force will be so well
supported by spiritual powers...that there will be far less pain than
joy, in our conquest towards a saner world.
I look forward to your continued treatises...your writing is
brilliant, and right on the mark. Keep it up! Keep it up! I hear
you, patriot! (Oh god, I should have known...you're from Boston, just
like Paul Revere.) :)
Let Freedom Ring
On Wed, 12 Feb 1997, Ezekiel Krahlin wrote:
> On 8 Feb 1997 05:06:18 GMT, dann...@aol.com (Danny Oper) imparted
> this delicious tidbit of wisdom:
>
>
> Thank you, thank you, for really telling it like it is. It is clear
> to me, that some pretty heavy stuff is going to fall on us, and soon.
> There is no doubt that this nation is gearing up for a holocaust...and
> homosexuals will, once again, be the scapegoats...at least, the first
> scapegots.
I do belive that you have this last statement incorrect the first
scapegoat will be Christians.
> >This is not a situation calling for impotent expressions of verbal
> >protest. We must toughen ourselves both psychologically and physically,
> >and prepare ourselves for the grim sacrifices that we will need to make in
> >revolting outright against these conditions.
>
> Like it or no, most revolutions for a better life,
Very few revolutions have actually achieved the "better life"!
Most violent revolutions are followed by a very violent gov't.
have been violent.
> And our turn to revolt is just about due.
What makes you say this?
> I believe we will win...and I believe our force will be so well
> supported by spiritual powers...
Well you better start "praying" to Gaia then, she might listen
this time!?!?!?!?!?!
John De Salvio
In article <Pine.HPP.3.95.970213...@river.it.gvsu.edu>,
Let Freedom Ring <lub...@river.it.gvsu.edu> wrote:
> Very few revolutions have actually achieved the "better life"!
> Most violent revolutions are followed by a very violent gov't.
And the American Revolution was a sit-down tea party?
"Dear Colonists,
"I understand that there is some sort of ill feeling with the way
we have been treating you.
"Dreadfully sorry for the misunderstanding. We promise to never
cause you harm again, and will leave your shores immediately.
"Ever yours in friendship and all that,
King George III
"PS - Give my best to Tom Paine, Tom Jefferson,
and the rest of you fine people!"
--
John
NOTE: "From" address is deliberately wrong.
My correct e-mail address is:
Let Freedom Ring
On Thu, 13 Feb 1997, John De Salvio wrote:
> In article <Pine.HPP.3.95.970213...@river.it.gvsu.edu>,
> Let Freedom Ring <lub...@river.it.gvsu.edu> wrote:
>
> > Very few revolutions have actually achieved the "better life"!
> > Most violent revolutions are followed by a very violent gov't.
>
Mr. De Salivo I said "most" revolutions have not achieved the
"better life". You have take one example that succeded but ignored
thousands that have failed. Look at Latin America, Africa, Middle East
and Asia very few have worked.
ekra...@fog.net
In article <Pine.HPP.3.95.970213...@river.it.gvsu.edu>,
Let Freedom Ring <lub...@river.it.gvsu.edu> wrote:
>
>
> > On 8 Feb 1997 05:06:18 GMT, dann...@aol.com (Danny Oper) imparted
> > this delicious tidbit of wisdom:
> >
> >
> > Thank you, thank you, for really telling it like it is. It is clear
> > to me, that some pretty heavy stuff is going to fall on us, and soon.
> > There is no doubt that this nation is gearing up for a holocaust...and
> > homosexuals will, once again, be the scapegoats...at least, the first
> > scapegots.
>
> I do belive that you have this last statement incorrect the first
> scapegoat will be Christians.
Impossible, as the Christian fundamentalists, the conservative Catholic
churches, and numerous other phony Christrian groups have been
scapegoating lesbians and gays for a long, long time already.
> > >This is not a situation calling for impotent expressions of verbal
> > >protest. We must toughen ourselves both psychologically and physically,
> > >and prepare ourselves for the grim sacrifices that we will need to make in
> > >revolting outright against these conditions.
> >
> > Like it or no, most revolutions for a better life,
>
> Very few revolutions have actually achieved the "better life"!
> Most violent revolutions are followed by a very violent gov't.
>
> have been violent.
You're right, I must default to you. Look at the kind of screwed up
nation the American Revolution brought us! Not to mention those other
"peaceful" revolts, that led to labor unions, women's rights, black
people's rights, free speech, ending Vietnam War. There are also many
revolutions most of us revere as good, prior to the 20th century...all,
at some point, creating violence, shedding blood, and upsetting the
status quo. Oh, yeah: The Civil War...a definitely violent revolution.
It seems *you* would have a much more difficult time of it, to come up
with even even a *short* list of revolutions that did not contain
violence. Jesus Christ established his spiritual kingdom amid much
violent revolt...including his own crucifixion.
> > And our turn to revolt is just about due.
>
> What makes you say this?
I am politically and socially savvy. I see the signs, these are the
times. I have been distributing through the Internet numerous essays and
treatises that point to these things. Go read 'em, if curious. You can
search and find *everything* I've put into Usenet, by going to the
DejaNews web page, and searching for my e-mail address:
http://www.gms.lu/search/dejanews/
The condemning of homophobia is happening across the world, first among
the westernized cultures...with Amerika dragging its homophobic,
phony-Kristian cloven feet. I know myself, and my destiny.
My role is to help shatter the Goblet of Deceipt, from which the
Christian Fundamentalists (and *other* fanatic groups such as Muslim
extremists) drink so avidly...and which contains the blood of so many
good souls whose only "crime" was to love another of the same sex. The
voices of anger are rising up throughout the world. Many heterosexuals
are joining the fight to unshackle the chains of homophobia...now that so
many more realize how importantly this ties in with human rights a la
women's rights, children's rights, and the racism issue.
I predict that, within a few years, third world countries will erect
billboards across their nations, depicting same-sex couples in
affectionat embrace, with the slogan: "Same-sex love: A healthy, sane
alternative to overpopulation." Then the "advanced" nations will follow
suit, through television, radio, and of course the Internet.
> > I believe we will win...and I believe our force will be so well
> > supported by spiritual powers...
>
> Well you better start "praying" to Gaia then, she might listen
> this time!?!?!?!?!?!
I am a Christian first, and a universalist...in that I respect all world
views as equally valid. There are many intelligent, well-read Christians
who have absolutely no problem living in a multi-religious world...I'm
not the only one. If you really live by Christ's teachings, you will
*respect* others, no matter what their beliefs; and this goes for atheist
and agnostic type. So if I pray to Gaia, it is knowing her as a face, an
aspect, of the One Creator.
Anyway, thanks for your interest.
-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet
Let Freedom Ring
On Sun, 23 Feb 1997 ekra...@fog.net wrote:
> In article <Pine.HPP.3.95.970213...@river.it.gvsu.edu>,
> Let Freedom Ring <lub...@river.it.gvsu.edu> wrote:
> >
> > On Wed, 12 Feb 1997, Ezekiel Krahlin wrote:
> >
> >
> > I do belive that you have this last statement incorrect the first
> > scapegoat will be Christians.
>
> Impossible, as the Christian fundamentalists, the conservative Catholic
> churches, and numerous other phony Christrian groups have been
> scapegoating lesbians and gays for a long, long time already.
>
My friend you are the one who has this wrong. Christians have
been scapegoat for some time now (just look at the way we are viewed by
the mass media--not very friendly). Not only that we (Christians) were
rounded up just like the Jews during the Holocaust.
> > >
> > > Like it or no, most revolutions for a better life,
> >
> > Very few revolutions have actually achieved the "better life"!
> > Most violent revolutions are followed by a very violent gov't.
> >
>
> You're right, I must default to you. Look at the kind of screwed up
> nation the American Revolution brought us!
We do not have a violent gov't at least not yet.
Not to mention those other
> "peaceful" revolts, that led to labor unions, women's rights, black
> people's rights, free speech, ending Vietnam War. There are also many
> revolutions most of us revere as good, prior to the 20th century...all,
> at some point, creating violence, shedding blood, and upsetting the
> status quo. Oh, yeah: The Civil War...a definitely violent revolution.
>
> It seems *you* would have a much more difficult time of it, to come up
> with even even a *short* list of revolutions that did not contain
> violence. Jesus Christ established his spiritual kingdom amid much
> violent revolt...including his own crucifixion.
I have no idea what your point of this rambling is. I merely
stated that usually after a revolution a violent gov't follows ( note I
DID NOT SAY ALWAYS).
>
> > > And our turn to revolt is just about due.
> >
> > What makes you say this?
>
> I am politically and socially savvy. I see the signs,
I do not see any signs why don't you point some out to me?
>
> voices of anger are rising up throughout the world. Many heterosexuals
> are joining the fight to unshackle the chains of homophobia...now that so
> many more realize how importantly this ties in with human rights a la
> women's rights, children's rights, and the racism issue.
Yes these are the banners of globalism.
>
> I predict that, within a few years, third world countries will erect
> billboards across their nations,
You are very optimistic. I don't see this happening for a long
time espically since a good deal of third world countries are Muslim.
depicting same-sex couples in
> affectionat embrace, with the slogan: "Same-sex love: A healthy, sane
> alternative to overpopulation."
Overpopulation bomb what a bust!!!!
> I am a Christian first, and a universalist...in that I respect all world
> views as equally valid.
My friend read John 14:6 the other views are not valid.
There are many intelligent, well-read Christians
> who have absolutely no problem living in a multi-religious world...
I have no problem living in a "multi-religious world". If it was
not one we could not fulfill the Great Commision.
I'm
> not the only one. If you really live by Christ's teachings, you will
> *respect* others,
I must love the sinner and hate the sin!!!!
no matter what their beliefs; and this goes for atheist
> and agnostic type. So if I pray to Gaia, it is knowing her as a face, an
> aspect, of the One Creator.
You are most certianly New Age.
Steve Lamb
On Mon, 24 Feb 1997 23:09:00 -0500, Let Freedom Ring <lub...@river.it.gvsu.edu> in <<Pine.HPP.3.95.970224...@river.it.gvsu.edu>> wrote:
> My friend you are the one who has this wrong. Christians have
>been scapegoat for some time now (just look at the way we are viewed by
>the mass media--not very friendly). Not only that we (Christians) were
>rounded up just like the Jews during the Holocaust.
Really, and can you PROVE the wholesale slaughter of million Christians?
I'm sure the US Government would really be interested if you could.
>> I am a Christian first, and a universalist...in that I respect all world
>> views as equally valid.
> My friend read John 14:6 the other views are not valid.
John 14:6... Ah-ha... this one:
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh
unto the Father, but by me.
See, but you're missing one MAJOR point... Not everyone believes that
fable nor is every portion good to believe. As I posted here previously to
"Right from the Beginning", a Mr. Haffs (which went unanswered, I might
add.):
--- SNIP ---
So, what you're saying is is that it is American to commit incest,
right?
"Come, let us make our father drink wine, and we will lie with him, that we
may preserve seed of our father."
--Genesis 19:32.
"Thus were both daughters of Lot with child by their father."
--Genesis 19:36.
--- SNIP ---
You are advocating change in the government based on your personal
religious bias. If that is your sole source of arguements then you *WILL*
lose based on the one docuement every American should have read and *MUST*
abide by, the US Constitution. In case you don't know which portion I'm
refering to:
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or
prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech,
or of the press, or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to
petition the government for a redress of grievances."
-- Article I, The Constitution of the United States
Read it carefully and note the first sentence, "Congress shall make no
law respecting an establishment of religion..." That means, simply, if you
intend to pass or uphold a law based solely on your religious bias it will
fail. Now, try to pass the law of verifiable facts aside from your fable
and your peronsal squeamishness and *MAYBE* you'd stand a chance. Until
then, forget about it because there are people like me who will oppose you
at *EVERY* step.
Speaking of posts that have gone unanswered, there are three by me to
you at last count that you have ignored. I expect this to be number 4.
--
Steve C. Lamb | Opinions expressed by me are not my
http://www.calweb.com/~morpheus | employer's. They hired me for my
| skills and labor, not my opinions!
---------------------------------------+-------------------------------------
Ward Stewart
>On Sun, 23 Feb 1997 ekra...@fog.net wrote:
>> In article <Pine.HPP.3.95.970213...@river.it.gvsu.edu>,
>> Let Freedom Ring <lub...@river.it.gvsu.edu> wrote:
>> >
>> > On Wed, 12 Feb 1997, Ezekiel Krahlin wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> > I do belive that you have this last statement incorrect the first
>> > scapegoat will be Christians.
>>
>> Impossible, as the Christian fundamentalists, the conservative Catholic
>> churches, and numerous other phony Christrian groups have been
>> scapegoating lesbians and gays for a long, long time already.
>>
> My friend you are the one who has this wrong. Christians have
>been scapegoat for some time now (just look at the way we are viewed by
>the mass media--not very friendly). Not only that we (Christians) were
>rounded up just like the Jews during the Holocaust.
Why don't you juse ease this little notion off of
your mind -- WHO the hell do you imagine it was
that was doing the "rounding up?" Martians?
ward
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The government was finally made to give a reason
for sex discrimination in marriage and it turned out...
there isn't one."
Evan Wolfson
FJ!!
In article <Pine.HPP.3.95.970224...@river.it.gvsu.edu>,
Let Freedom Ring <lub...@river.it.gvsu.edu> wrote:
> My friend you are the one who has this wrong. Christians have
>been scapegoat for some time now (just look at the way we are viewed by
>the mass media--not very friendly).
I do not know whether to laugh or to cry - a member of a group that can
claim broad public support, tons of media dollars, reverence for its
leaders and near tottal hegemony over political life, claims
persecution.
>Not only that we (Christians) were
>rounded up just like the Jews during the Holocaust.
I have decided to cry. The false appropriation in this above is horrid,
simply horrid.
FJ!!
John Boston
On Mon, 24 Feb 1997 23:09:00 -0500, Let Freedom Ring <lub...@river.it.gvsu.edu>
wrote:
>On Sun, 23 Feb 1997 ekra...@fog.net wrote:
>
>> In article <Pine.HPP.3.95.970213...@river.it.gvsu.edu>,
>> Let Freedom Ring <lub...@river.it.gvsu.edu> wrote:
>> >
>> > On Wed, 12 Feb 1997, Ezekiel Krahlin wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> > I do belive that you have this last statement incorrect the first
>> > scapegoat will be Christians.
>>
>> Impossible, as the Christian fundamentalists, the conservative Catholic
>> churches, and numerous other phony Christrian groups have been
>> scapegoating lesbians and gays for a long, long time already.
>>
>
> My friend you are the one who has this wrong. Christians have
>been scapegoat for some time now (just look at the way we are viewed by
>the mass media--not very friendly). Not only that we (Christians) were
>rounded up just like the Jews during the Holocaust.
Gawd! When is it your turn to enter the ovens?
maxx at exis net
-------------------------------------------------------------
American Atheists, a nationwide movement founded by Madalyn Murray O'Hair
for the advancement of Atheism, and the total, absolute separation of government
and religion. For more information about American Atheists, send mail to in...@atheists.org
and include your name and postal mailing address.
Visit...
http://www.atheists.org
Let Freedom Ring
On Tue, 25 Feb 1997, Ward Stewart wrote:
> Let Freedom Ring <lub...@river.it.gvsu.edu>
> wrote:
>
> > My friend you are the one who has this wrong. Christians have
> >been scapegoat for some time now (just look at the way we are viewed by
> >the mass media--not very friendly). Not only that we (Christians) were
> >rounded up just like the Jews during the Holocaust.
>
> Why don't you juse ease this little notion off of
> your mind -- WHO the hell do you imagine it was
> that was doing the "rounding up?" Martians?
Ward, Mr. Haff and I have given you to much credit. It just so
happens the party that you and the media likes to label everyone that
disagrees with you and your cohorts. If you guessed the Nazi's you are
correct.
" I shall never come personally to terms with the Christian lie."
Guess who?
A. Hitler
Let Freedom Ring
On 25 Feb 1997, Steve Lamb wrote:
> On Mon, 24 Feb 1997 23:09:00 -0500, Let Freedom Ring <lub...@river.it.gvsu.edu> in <<Pine.HPP.3.95.970224...@river.it.gvsu.edu>> wrote:
> > My friend you are the one who has this wrong. Christians have
> >been scapegoat for some time now (just look at the way we are viewed by
> >the mass media--not very friendly). Not only that we (Christians) were
> >rounded up just like the Jews during the Holocaust.
>
> Really, and can you PROVE the wholesale slaughter of million Christians?
> I'm sure the US Government would really be interested if you could.
It's called 13 million killed by Nazi Germany.
>
> >> I am a Christian first, and a universalist...in that I respect all world
> >> views as equally valid.
>
> > My friend read John 14:6 the other views are not valid.
>
> John 14:6... Ah-ha... this one:
> Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh
> unto the Father, but by me.
>
> See, but you're missing one MAJOR point... Not everyone believes that
> fable nor is every portion good to believe. As I posted here previously to
> "Right from the Beginning", a Mr. Haffs (which went unanswered, I might
> add.):
He said that the other world views are valid and I pointed out
that they were not if as a Christian he held that the Bible was
infallible. This was merely a doctrinal issue response.
>
> You are advocating change in the government based on your personal
> religious bias. If that is your sole source of arguements then you *WILL*
> lose based on the one docuement every American should have read and *MUST*
> abide by, the US Constitution. In case you don't know which portion I'm
> refering to:
So what are you going to do about Congress? Last time I checked
they are not doing a very good job of abiding by the Constitution.
>
> "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or
> prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech,
> or of the press, or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to
> petition the government for a redress of grievances."
> -- Article I, The Constitution of the United States
>
> Read it carefully and note the first sentence, "Congress shall make no
> law respecting an establishment of religion..." That means, simply, if you
> intend to pass or uphold a law based solely on your religious bias it will
> fail.
Is that why before Roe 46 or 47 state had outlawed abortion and
Amendment 2 passed? Your argument holds very little water sir. These
were laws passed by the people of those individual states. Congress did
not pass either of the aforementioned laws.
Now, try to pass the law of verifiable facts aside from your fable
> and your peronsal squeamishness and *MAYBE* you'd stand a chance.
Mr. Haff and I and nurmeous others on this group have shown what
the Framer's intent was. By using their own writings. If these writings
are fables I think that you to get your head checked.
Until
> then, forget about it because there are people like me who will oppose you
> at *EVERY* step.
I will let Mr. Paine answer this one for me.
" Tryanny, like hell, is not easily conquered; yet we have this
consolation
with us, that the harder the conflict, the more glorious the
triumph.
What we obtain to cheaply, we esteem too lightly..."
>
> Speaking of posts that have gone unanswered, there are three by me to
> you at last count that you have ignored. I expect this to be number 4.
>
>
I have no idea what you are talking about. Lets see your
questions again please.
Let Freedom Ring
On Tue, 25 Feb 1997, FJ!! wrote:
> In article <Pine.HPP.3.95.970224...@river.it.gvsu.edu>,
> Let Freedom Ring <lub...@river.it.gvsu.edu> wrote:
> > My friend you are the one who has this wrong. Christians have
> >been scapegoat for some time now (just look at the way we are viewed by
> >the mass media--not very friendly).
>
> I do not know whether to laugh or to cry - a member of a group that can
> claim broad public support, tons of media dollars, reverence for its
> leaders and near tottal hegemony over political life, claims
> persecution.
" In fact, everyone who wants to live a godly live in Christ
Jesus will be persecuted."
2 Timothy 3:12
>
> >Not only that we (Christians) were
> >rounded up just like the Jews during the Holocaust.
>
> I have decided to cry. The false appropriation in this above is horrid,
> simply horrid.
It amazes me the amount of historical ignorance on this subject.
The Nazis killed 13 million people, that is including the 6 million Jews
that they killed. Therefore there are 7 million other people who were
killed and by common sense one can assume some of that 13 million were
Christians who were killed for their beliefs.
" I shall never come personally to terms with the Christian lie."
Guess who?
A. Hitler in 1942
Ezekiel Krahlin
On Mon, 24 Feb 1997 23:09:00 -0500, Let Freedom Ring
>On Sun, 23 Feb 1997 ekra...@fog.net wrote:
>
>> In article <Pine.HPP.3.95.970213...@river.it.gvsu.edu>,
>> Let Freedom Ring <lub...@river.it.gvsu.edu> wrote:
>>
>> > On Wed, 12 Feb 1997, Ezekiel Krahlin wrote:
>>
>>
>> Impossible, as the Christian fundamentalists, the conservative Catholic
>> churches, and numerous other phony Christrian groups have been
>> scapegoating lesbians and gays for a long, long time already.
>>
>
> My friend you are the one who has this wrong. Christians have
>been scapegoat for some time now (just look at the way we are viewed by
>the mass media--not very friendly). Not only that we (Christians) were
>rounded up just like the Jews during the Holocaust.
(I use "Thracian" to replace "gay" throughout my message:)
With friends like you, who needs enemies? Sure, just about every
group of people were rounded up by Nazis...does this mean the
Christians who were, deserve special recognition over any other group?
The fact remains: Germany is a Christianized nation, and has been for
many centuries. The whole fabric of German society is Christian.
Hitler rose to power because the majority voted in the Nazi
party...and the majority of German voters were/are Christian!
It matters not that Hitler himself hated Christianity (it's
phony-kristian jjerks like you who twisted his soul in the first
place)...for it does not change one iota the fact that Germany is a
Christian culture. So obviously, in some highly significant way, it
was the result of this Christian milieau that fomented this incredible
mass hatred...a hatred so enormous as to stand out in all of human
history as one of the most terrible, barbaric, and evil times in human
history...not from a Jewish nation, nor a Muslim nation, nor a
communist nation, but from a bona fide *Christian* nation.
You don't care to mention (or hear) the fact that many homosexuals
were likewise imprisoned in concentration camps. That's why the pink
triangle is an important symbol to the Thracian culture...as the pink
triangle is what we were forced to wear, in those concentration camps.
And you know what our allies did to us, when they "liberated" the
survivors of these camps? They sent the homosexuals to their own
"democratic" nations, to be immediately sentenced to prison...for even
the liberators all held homophobic laws. And these "allies" are all
Christianized nations, too!
Did you know one of the greatest heroes of WWII was Alan Turing, the
man who solely broke the German submarine code...which solution was
vital to winning the war? But because he was homosexual, the British
laws final caught up with him in the early 1950's, so he was
imprisoned, and died there (possibly from suicide)...talk about a
nation's betrayal! Alan Turing is also a major figure in computer
science...his Turing algorithm is still an ideal goal towards create
the intelligent maching.
So you have a *homosexual* to thank for saving your skin from Nazis
dominating the world. Are you Christian enough to eat humble pie, and
proclaim gratitude for Alan Turing's immaculate heroism? I doubt it,
I really do.
There all all kinds of Christians...and many are good souls. But many
are not, such as the bible thumpers and conservative Catholics...among
others. So because Christians also were sent to concentration camps
does not make them holier than thou...as Jews, Thracians, Gypsies,
communists, the poor, the disabled, and so on, were also sent to those
camps.
Just because you call yourself a Christian does not make you equal to
those fine Christians who sacrificed their own lives, to shelter and
defend the poor souls who were targeted by the Nazis. I'm sure
numerous Christians hid homosexuals in their homes...but likewise I am
sure that *you*, <lub...@river.it.gvsu.edu>, are not in their class,
and would ever show such selfless, nonjudgmental courage!
And you call yourself "let liberty ring", while at the same time you
would deny freedom to Lesbians, Thracians, and God only knows which
other groups of people you willfully choose to demonize. The only
tone I hear ringing from you is a dead and hollow one...clunk!
P.S.: My greatest gratitude to those good folk who have spoken up
against this Hitleresque bulley...good work, and keep it up! I have
complete confidence your words *do* reach the right people in need of
hearing them...such as these suffering children of fundamentalist
parents! You are a healing force for many, though it may not be
obvious...I'm sure of that.
----------signature:
I prefer public dialogue...no personal replies, please
(except on request; will consider pen-pals).
Private, hostile comments will be re-posted in public.
Ezekiel Krahlin
On Tue, 25 Feb 1997 20:56:51 GMT, f...@spdcc.com (FJ!!) imparted this
delicious tidbit of wisdom:
>In article <Pine.HPP.3.95.970224...@river.it.gvsu.edu>,
>Let Freedom Ring <lub...@river.it.gvsu.edu> wrote:
>> My friend you are the one who has this wrong. Christians have
>>been scapegoat for some time now (just look at the way we are viewed by
>>the mass media--not very friendly).
>
>I do not know whether to laugh or to cry - a member of a group that can
>claim broad public support, tons of media dollars, reverence for its
>leaders and near tottal hegemony over political life, claims
>persecution.
Laugh...read my rebuttal.
>
>>Not only that we (Christians) were
>>rounded up just like the Jews during the Holocaust.
>
>I have decided to cry. The false appropriation in this above is horrid,
>simply horrid.
Never give up! We will win! What an honor to be at the front lines,
arm-to-arm combat. This *is* armageddon--the psychic war--and we are
indeed winning! Many battles ahead of us...but we'll knock 'em all
down. We *are* the David against Goliath. God--in whatever way to
perceive Him--loves us!
Ward Stewart
>On 25 Feb 1997, Steve Lamb wrote:
>> On Mon, 24 Feb 1997 23:09:00 -0500, Let Freedom Ring <lub...@river.it.gvsu.edu> in <<Pine.HPP.3.95.970224...@river.it.gvsu.edu>> wrote:
>> > My friend you are the one who has this wrong. Christians have
>> >been scapegoat for some time now (just look at the way we are viewed by
>> >the mass media--not very friendly). Not only that we (Christians) were
>> >rounded up just like the Jews during the Holocaust.
>>
>> Really, and can you PROVE the wholesale slaughter of million Christians?
>> I'm sure the US Government would really be interested if you could.
> It's called 13 million killed by Nazi Germany.
Slaughtering each other has long been a favorite
pastime for Christians --
w
> Mr. Haff and I and nurmeous others on this group have shown what
>the Framer's intent was. By using their own writings. If these writings
>are fables I think that you to get your head checked.
Have you included slavery and sexond-class
citizenship for women in that odd rubric of ideas
which are not to be challenged?
ward
############################################################
"Intolerance is a beautiful thing...There are people that
are politically correct that want to say the cardinal
sin of the hour is intolerance and I think that is a bunch
of junk."
--Randal Terry, Operation Rescue
Conrad Sabatier
In article <Pine.HPP.3.95.970225...@river.it.gvsu.edu>,
Let Freedom Ring <lub...@river.it.gvsu.edu> writes:
> On Tue, 25 Feb 1997, FJ!! wrote:
>
>> In article <Pine.HPP.3.95.970224...@river.it.gvsu.edu>,
>> > My friend you are the one who has this wrong. Christians have
>> >been scapegoat for some time now (just look at the way we are viewed by
>> >the mass media--not very friendly).
>>
>> claim broad public support, tons of media dollars, reverence for its
>> leaders and near tottal hegemony over political life, claims
>> persecution.
>
> Jesus will be persecuted."
> 2 Timothy 3:12
Nothing like a little persecution mania to rouse the rabble, huh?
>> >Not only that we (Christians) were
>> >rounded up just like the Jews during the Holocaust.
>>
>> I have decided to cry. The false appropriation in this above is horrid,
>> simply horrid.
Horrid, yes. But hardly surprising, considering the source.
> It amazes me the amount of historical ignorance on this subject.
> The Nazis killed 13 million people, that is including the 6 million Jews
> that they killed. Therefore there are 7 million other people who were
> killed and by common sense one can assume some of that 13 million were
> Christians who were killed for their beliefs.
If we hadn't already been witness to one falsehood after another in your
posts, we might read the above with utter astonishment. That being not
the case, however, we can only conclude that you feel no compunction
whatsoever about twisting and distorting facts, not to mention outright
*lying*, solely for the purpose of saving face in a debate.
Let me ask you this: if Germany, being a predominantly Christian nation,
were actually involved in the extermination of Christians "for their
beliefs", as you say, would they not have annihilated themselves?
There's clearly no point in discussing anything with you.
--
Conrad Sabatier http://www.neosoft.com/~conrads
FJ!!
In article <Pine.HPP.3.95.970225...@river.it.gvsu.edu>,
Let Freedom Ring <lub...@river.it.gvsu.edu> wrote:
> " In fact, everyone who wants to live a godly live in Christ
>Jesus will be persecuted."
That's a nice frase, but out here in the real world, if you want to
claim persecution, you have to be actually persecuted. This does not
include nor involve having millions of dollars for media, broad
grass-roots support, a very strong grip over public life and adoration
for your leaders.
This may have escaped your notice, but you aren't being thrown to Lions
anymore. Maybe you could pass the memo around.
>> >Not only that we (Christians) were
>> >rounded up just like the Jews during the Holocaust.
> It amazes me the amount of historical ignorance on this subject.
No shit.
>The Nazis killed 13 million people, that is including the 6 million Jews
>that they killed. Therefore there are 7 million other people who were
>killed and by common sense one can assume some of that 13 million were
>Christians who were killed for their beliefs.
But not for being Christian.
Ok, quick history lesson: Jews were rounded up and exterminated, en
masse, for the sole they were Jewish, which, by Nazi standards, involved
either having the Judaic faith *or* having had an ancestor that qualified
as Jewish, no matter which religious belief the person held the time. The
cutoff line for being allowed to stay alive was, if I am not incorrect,
one eighth, i.e. if you had great-grandparent who was Jewish, you were
deported to be butchered, no matter what your belief was.
No such law or decree was ever put into place for people who believed
in Jesus Christ or had ancestors who believed in Jesus Christ. Believeing
in Jesus Christ was not a reason for deportation or murder in any of
the occupied territories. Inside the camps there were no markings
for being Christian like there were for being Jewish, Homosexual,
Political Offendor, Gypsy, etc. Christians were deported up and did die,
but not because they were Christian. The place in the camps the Jewish
people held was quite exceptional in that the circumstances they had
to live in and the gassings created a far higher mortality rate
than any other group being held in camps.
Your "just" in the "just like the Jews" is trying to evoke a parallel
that does not exist. Christians were not being slaughetred for being
members of a religious ethnicity, nor their belief in Jesus Christ
of the Holy Bible. Your attempt of appropriation is ignorant and
horrid in the way it tries to deny the ethnic persecution that took
place.
No plans were made for a Final Solution to the Christian Problem. The
Christian Problem wasn't even deemed to exist. There was no Kristalnacht
for Christian people, churches weren't burned because they were places
of Christian worship, there were no signs "No Christians Allowed Here",
no Christian was made to wear markings on the coats to identify them as
Christian to anyone who wanted to harrass them, no big "C" was stamped
inside identity cards, no Christian was made to give up their business
ventures because they were Christian, no laws were encated to remove
Christian kids from their schools because they were Christian, no
specific Christian ghettos were created which were closed off to
the city so its population could be systematically starved.
And there were no orders to deport Christians to certain death for
being Christian.
"just like the Jews". You disgust me.
FJ!!
Let Freedom Ring
On Wed, 26 Feb 1997, Ezekiel Krahlin wrote:
> (I use "Thracian" to replace "gay" throughout my message:)
>
> With friends like you, who needs enemies? Sure, just about every
> group of people were rounded up by Nazis...does this mean the
> Christians who were, deserve special recognition over any other group?
> The fact remains: Germany is a Christianized nation,
So you will also admit that the USA was a Christian nation as
well.
Correct?
and has been for
> many centuries. The whole fabric of German society is Christian.
> Hitler rose to power because the majority voted in the Nazi
> party...and the majority of German voters were/are Christian!
>
You really over simplify the rise of the Nazi party to power in
the 1930's.
> It matters not that Hitler himself hated Christianity (it's
> phony-kristian jjerks like you who twisted his soul in the first
> place)...for it does not change one iota the fact that Germany is a
> Christian culture.
As is the American culture.
So obviously, in some highly significant way, it
> was the result of this Christian milieau that fomented this incredible
> mass hatred...a hatred so enormous as to stand out in all of human
> history as one of the most terrible, barbaric, and evil times in human
> history...not from a Jewish nation, nor a Muslim nation, nor a
> communist nation, but from a bona fide *Christian* nation.
>
You really don't have a faintest idea why Hitler came to power do
you? You over simplify way to much.
> You don't care to mention (or hear) the fact that many homosexuals
> were likewise imprisoned in concentration camps.
Your point is? You said up above that everyone was rounded up.
That's why the pink
> triangle is an important symbol to the Thracian culture...as the pink
> triangle is what we were forced to wear, in those concentration camps.
> And you know what our allies did to us, when they "liberated" the
> survivors of these camps? They sent the homosexuals to their own
> "democratic" nations, to be immediately sentenced to prison...for even
> the liberators all held homophobic laws. And these "allies" are all
> Christianized nations, too!
I would like to see some sources for this. As a World War 2
historian I have never heard of this before.
>
> Did you know one of the greatest heroes of WWII was Alan Turing, the
> man who solely broke the German submarine code...which solution was
> vital to winning the war? But because he was homosexual, the British
> laws final caught up with him in the early 1950's, so he was
> imprisoned, and died there (possibly from suicide)...talk about a
> nation's betrayal! Alan Turing is also a major figure in computer
> science...his Turing algorithm is still an ideal goal towards create
> the intelligent maching.
>
> So you have a *homosexual* to thank for saving your skin from Nazis
> dominating the world.
I do not think that your Turing figure quite adds up to what
Patton, Montogermy(sp), Eisenhower(sp), and Bradley did end the war in
Europe.
Are you Christian enough to eat humble pie, and
> proclaim gratitude for Alan Turing's immaculate heroism? I doubt it,
> I really do.
You call breaking a code " immaculate heroism"? Real heroism is
Rommel's dash to Alexandria when he was vastly outnumbered, the German
paratroopers who landed on Crete, the dive bombers who risked life and
limb to get to the Japanese carriers at Midway, the brave soldiers at
Ohama beach on D-Day, and the brillant defense of Bastonge by the 101st
Airborne Div. That is real heroism.
Go back and read some World War 2 history books and learn some
history.
Ward Stewart
f...@spdcc.com (FJ!!) wrote:
>In article <Pine.HPP.3.95.970224...@river.it.gvsu.edu>,
>Let Freedom Ring <lub...@river.it.gvsu.edu> wrote:
>> My friend you are the one who has this wrong. Christians have
>>been scapegoat for some time now (just look at the way we are viewed by
>>the mass media--not very friendly).
>I do not know whether to laugh or to cry - a member of a group that can
>claim broad public support, tons of media dollars, reverence for its
>leaders and near tottal hegemony over political life, claims
>persecution.
>>Not only that we (Christians) were
>>rounded up just like the Jews during the Holocaust.
>I have decided to cry. The false appropriation in this above is horrid,
>simply horrid.
> FJ!!
You fail to understand the gravity of the
narcissistic wound -- when you go blithly through
life, convinced that the sun rises and sets in
your asshole, convinced that you have truth by the
balls and that the entire creation exists simply
to provide a showcase for YOU, -- "not very
friendly" seems terribly abusive, fit to compare
with Dachau and Sobibor.
it is, as you have remarked, horrid!!
ward
---------------------------------------------------
"The freedom to marry has long been recognized as one
of the vital personal rights essential to the orderly
pursuit of happiness by free men. Marriage is one of
the "basic civil rights of man," fundamental to our
very existance and survival. To deny this fundamental
freedom on so unsupportable a basis as the racial
classifications embodied in these statutes, classifications
so directly subversive of the principles of equality at
the heart of the Fourteenth Amendment, is surely to
deprive all the state's citizens of liberty without
due process of law,
SCOTUS in Loving v. Virginia
------------------------------------------------------
Ward Stewart
> You really don't have a faintest idea why Hitler came to power do
>you? You over simplify way to much.
If you do; -- please enlighten us as to the TRUTH.
Since you choose to identify your self as a "World
War 2 historian" this should present no problem.
>> You don't care to mention (or hear) the fact that many homosexuals
>> were likewise imprisoned in concentration camps.
> Your point is? You said up above that everyone was rounded up.
> That's why the pink
>> triangle is an important symbol to the Thracian culture...as the pink
>> triangle is what we were forced to wear, in those concentration camps.
>> And you know what our allies did to us, when they "liberated" the
>> survivors of these camps? They sent the homosexuals to their own
>> "democratic" nations, to be immediately sentenced to prison...for even
>> the liberators all held homophobic laws. And these "allies" are all
>> Christianized nations, too!
> I would like to see some sources for this. As a World War 2
>historian I have never heard of this before.
NEVER heard of the pink triangle? or perhaps
NEVER heard of the non-liberation of pink triangle
prisoners from the camps.
OH WOW, you really are a historian,
budd...@aol.com
In article <5f27pt$5...@nuhou.aloha.net>, wste...@hi.net wrote:
>
>Have you included slavery and sexond-class
>citizenship for women in that odd rubric of ideas
>which are not to be challenged?
Gee Ward....I didn't know that you cared so much for women who are treated like second-class citizens. Would anyone like to donate to the Ward Stewart Defense of Women Fund? It will be used to purchase a one-way ticket for Ward and his partner to get to Iran to help all those poor oppressed women and slaves. Why a one-way ticket?? Use your imagination.
*************************************************************
* Buddy Beaudoin *
* The 3-second Gospel: "Therefore if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed" *
********************** John 8:34-36 ***************************
John Sanger
In article <19970302040...@ladder02.news.aol.com> budd...@aol.com writes:
>
>In article <5f27pt$5...@nuhou.aloha.net>, wste...@hi.net wrote:
>
>>
>>Have you included slavery and sexond-class
>>citizenship for women in that odd rubric of ideas
>>which are not to be challenged?
>
>Gee Ward....I didn't know that you cared so much for women who are treated like second-class citizens. Would anyone like to donate to the Ward Stewart Defense of Women Fund? It will be used to purchase a one-way ticket for Ward and his partner to get to Iran to help all those poor oppressed women and slaves. Why a one-way ticket?? Use your imagination.
>
>
And "Bubble Brainless" claims to be a xian.... yeah right! and I have
some nice property with plenty of water on it in Florida that you can
get for a song....
clueless is as clueless does!
"Bubble Brainless"==clueless==ignoramus==LIAR
--
Ciao!
John S. 8^{)>
tedd...@netcom.com
__
Ward Stewart
budd...@aol.com wrote:
>In article <5f27pt$5...@nuhou.aloha.net>, wste...@hi.net wrote:
>>
>>Have you included slavery and sexond-class
>>citizenship for women in that odd rubric of ideas
>>which are not to be challenged?
>Gee Ward....I didn't know that you cared so much for women who are treated like second-class citizens. Would anyone like to donate to the Ward Stewart Defense of Women Fund? It will be used to purchase a one-way ticket for Ward and his partner to get to Iran to help all those poor oppressed women and slaves. Why a one-way ticket?? Use your imagination.
YOU ARE AN IDIOT BUDDY -- you are harking back to
really primitive and dim stuff!
"Why are you offended at that joke, you're not
Jewish?"
"What's the matter with that anti-female joke, the
problem is that you have no sense of humor?"
"You just don't understand, dumb polack jokes are
not offensive, they are humor!"
Is it that you imagine that white citizens are not
entitled to have concern over the treatment of
blacks in this racist soiciety? Tell that one to
Goodman, Schwerner and Cheney.
As for your citation of IRAN -- that reveals a
total failure of wit and ratiocination -- IRAN is
virtually a theocracy, its government is
controlled by its majority religion. Just as you
fools try to claim that Amereica is a "christian
country," the Iranians have set up an "Islamic
Republic."
ward
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
When someone with the authority of a teacher, say,
describes the world and you are not in it, there is a
moment of psychic disequilibrium, as if you looked
into a mirror and saw nothing.
--Adrienne Rich, "Invisibility in Academe"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
John Simpson
On 2 Mar 1997 08:25:44 GMT, budd...@aol.com said unto us:
>In article <5f27pt$5...@nuhou.aloha.net>, wste...@hi.net wrote:
>>
>>Have you included slavery and sexond-class
>>citizenship for women in that odd rubric of ideas
>>which are not to be challenged?
>
>Gee Ward....I didn't know that you cared so much for women who are treated
>like second-class citizens. Would anyone like to donate to the Ward Stewart
>Defense of Women Fund? It will be used to purchase a one-way ticket for
>Ward and his partner to get to Iran to help all those poor oppressed women
>and slaves. Why a one-way ticket?? Use your imagination.
Besides ignoring the concrete objections to Christian scriptures,
you have now stooped to thinly-veiled death threats. Congratulations,
Mr. Beaudoin.
After you're through claiming that this was just a joke, you
might try defending the biblical status of slavery and sexism.
Peace,
----------------------------------------------------
"We are men of action. Lies do not become us."
--the Dread Pirate Roberts
budd...@aol.com
In article <5f27pt$5...@nuhou.aloha.net>, wste...@hi.net wrote:
>
>Have you included slavery and sexond-class
>citizenship for women in that odd rubric of ideas
>which are not to be challenged?
Gee Ward....I didn't know that you cared so much for women who are treated like second-class citizens. Would anyone like to donate to the Ward Stewart Defense of Women Fund? It will be used to purchase a one-way ticket for Ward and his partner to get to Iran to help all those poor oppressed women and slaves. Why a one-way ticket?? Use your imagination.
John Sanger
In article <19970302223...@ladder02.news.aol.com> budd...@aol.com writes:
>
>In article <5f27pt$5...@nuhou.aloha.net>, wste...@hi.net wrote:
>
>>
>>Have you included slavery and sexond-class
>>citizenship for women in that odd rubric of ideas
>>which are not to be challenged?
>
>Gee Ward....I didn't know that you cared so much for women who are treated like second-class citizens. Would anyone like to donate to the Ward Stewart Defense of Women Fund? It will be used to purchase a one-way ticket for Ward and his partner to get to Iran to help all those poor oppressed women and slaves. Why a one-way ticket?? Use your imagination.
>
>
Have you noticed that "Bubble Brainless" is operating with sawdust that
seems a bit more wet than usual.... he keeps sending his ignorant posts
out over and over and over again...
Perhaps somebody should write to aohell and ask them to assist this
stupid individual so that he will not be repeating his posts....
Ward Stewart
ekra...@fog.net wrote:
At 07:33 PM 3/7/97 -0800, you wrote:
>I have that grip, and neither you nor anyone else can wrest it away from me.
>The torch is mine for the responsibility I own. It's one thing to not
>understand my particular tactics...but another to assume you know the best
>way to handle the situation. I have already considered all my options long,
>long before you ever suggested I reconsider my tactics. The mistake (and
>insult) you make is thinking you're more intelligent than me. I'm a lot
>brighter than you could ever imagine.
>
>
Since only a fool would make such a statement I am
forced to suspect that you may underestimate my
imagination.
>---
>Hail Athenia, brave new nation!
>
Give it a rest!