The Fall of Hyperion - and what a fall [ review of shortcomings ]
Marduk
Hyperion Cantos slides off gradually with every book.
As I discovered, there is nothing gradual in the degradation.
Surely Hyperion has it's flaws, but in general, its a very good book.
So after finishing it, and starting The Fall of Hyperion, I was
expecting a good, decent novel.
And its not what I found.
What I found was an unfocused, inconsistent, vague plot. Characters
acting not on the base of the novels's inner drive, but rather on
authors will. Often cases of deus ex machina, and plot lines which
start with great promise, and come to nought
Several examples of my points:
[Spoilers ahead]
Deus ex machina:
The priest, Paul Dure, feels a great urge to understand, what the hell
is going on around him (or rather, Simmons, feels that its about time
for some info-dump), so he just goes to God's Groove (Templars world)
to see the Master Templar. The templar accepts him, and tells him ( a
man which he sees for the first time ) everything he knows and thinks
about Shrike, Ousters etc. Convinient enough, the head of the Shrike
Church also attends the meeting, and in his turn, tells Dure ( a man
which he meets for the first time ) everything he knows.
Another almost identical example: Ummon (the AI) tells everything he
knows, first to Johny (the first replica persona of John Keats), and
than to Severn (the second replica persona of John Keats).
Its realy very simple: sometimes heroes feel that they had enough
enigmas, so they go to talk with other charachters, who clear it all
out for them.
Severn (the main hero) appears in Meine Gladstone's dream. He succeeds
in doing so, just in time to tell her, everything she has to know, so
that she can destroy the core, and save humanity.
In the end of the book, when Simmons suddenly decides to wrap things
up, Brawne Lamia (the private detective) kicks Shrike in the belly,
and he (Shrike - the lord of pain, the undefeatable supernatural
godlike creauture) just dissolves into little pieces of glass.
and the list goes on...
Plot elements that come to nought (or get a very lousy resolution):
Het Masteen's (the templar) disappearance, which adds a nice
mysterious edge to Hyperion, gets 2 line explanation in The Fall
(Shrike kills him).
Severn and Hunt (Gladstone's aid) get locked on Old Earth by the core.
Severn dies off quitly for 40 pages (with no good reason, other than
opportunity for the author to fill the book with biographical peice
about Keats), and Hunt waits for him to die. When Severn finaly dies,
Hunt finds farcaster, but can't go through it. *Thats it for that plot
line*. Hunt doesn't appear anymore in the book.
Kassad fights the Shrike endless amount of times, until, in just
another of those battles, Shrike gets to kill him. Ouh well.
and the list goes on...
Its one of those unfortunate books, in which the author uses a huge
amount of resources ( generic sci-fi elements ) to construct a week
plot.
Here is a partial list:
Galactic empire, instant teleportation, FTL drives, AI's,
cyborgs, humman immortalilty , telepathy, time travel, at least 2
God's, ancient alien civilization, alternative human race - the
Ousters, 2 religious sects - The Templars, and the Shrike Church...
(I am sure I am living smth out)
And none of these elements receive proper development and exploration,
except the occasional, poorly hided info-dumps.
In "The Fall", Simmons did the opposite from what Frank Herbert did in
the Dune series.
Herbert substantially developed and explored the various interest
groups of Dune universe (like Bene Gesserit, Freemen, several houses)
but still succeeded in keeping a mystery aureole around them.
Simmons did the opposite. Without actualy telling much about the
Shrike, the Ousters, the Shrike Church, the templars, and the core, he
has ruined the mystery edge, that any of those elements had in the
beginning, and turned them into something quite banal.
I don't know, why would anyone bother with Endimion, after the fiasko
of The Fall.
Or maybe I am missing something?
Marduk, aka, Michael Polischuk
Joe Buckley
mar...@walla.co.il (Marduk) write:
[SNIP of commentary]
[...but spoilage space, nonetheless]
>In the end of the book, when Simmons suddenly decides to wrap things
>up, Brawne Lamia (the private detective) kicks Shrike in the belly,
>and he (Shrike - the lord of pain, the undefeatable supernatural
>godlike creauture) just dissolves into little pieces of glass.
I haven't read these, but on reading this comment, the line to
first pop into my mind was:
"Perhaps, it had the novelty of having never been tried."
(OK, so I couldn't resist.)
-JPB
--
"Let's rock, Posie-boy!" - logo for SheVa Gun "Bun Bun"
Bruce Baugh
mar...@walla.co.il (Marduk) wrote:
> If I am not mistaken, it is a common opinion, that the quality of
> Hyperion Cantos slides off gradually with every book. As I
> discovered, there is nothing gradual in the degradation. Surely
> Hyperion has it's flaws, but in general, its a very good book. So
> after finishing it, and starting The Fall of Hyperion, I was
> expecting a good, decent novel. And its not what I found. What I
> found was an unfocused, inconsistent, vague plot. Characters acting
> not on the base of the novels's inner drive, but rather on authors
> will. Often cases of deus ex machina, and plot lines which start with
> great promise, and come to nought
The nice thing about "reviews" like this is that there's really nothing
to say. One can agree or disagree, but because of the terms staked out
there's no room for actual _discussion_. So I'll just say "I disagree"
and move on.
--
Bruce Baugh <*> Writer of Fortune <*> bruce...@sff.net
http://trasaric.livejournal.com/ for ramblings du jour
http://www.tkau.org/ for durable pieces
Everything possible to be believ'd is an image of truth.
Htn963
>In article <2c1146aa.01122...@posting.google.com>,
> mar...@walla.co.il (Marduk) wrote:
>
>> If I am not mistaken, it is a common opinion, that the quality of
>> Hyperion Cantos slides off gradually with every book. As I
>> discovered, there is nothing gradual in the degradation. Surely
>> Hyperion has it's flaws, but in general, its a very good book. So
>> after finishing it, and starting The Fall of Hyperion, I was
>> expecting a good, decent novel. And its not what I found. What I
>> found was an unfocused, inconsistent, vague plot. Characters acting
>> not on the base of the novels's inner drive, but rather on authors
>> will. Often cases of deus ex machina, and plot lines which start with
>> great promise, and come to nought
>
>The nice thing about "reviews" like this is that there's really nothing
>to say.
Eh? I found this review informative and helpful in that it confirms my
surmise that the latter Hyperion books are full of clumsy and self-indulgent
handwaving -- i.e., not to my taste.
>One can agree or disagree, but because of the terms staked out
>there's no room for actual _discussion_.
Well, assuming you're not also being as flippantly conclusory about the
review as you accused the reviewer of being about the book, we can at least
discuss what are the "terms staked out" that bars discussion of the review.
>So I'll just say "I disagree" and move on.
You can also say you're a Simmons fan.
--
Ht
|Any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind; and therefore
never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee.
--John Donne, "Devotions Upon Emergent Occasions"|
Marduk
> In article <2c1146aa.01122...@posting.google.com>,
> mar...@walla.co.il (Marduk) wrote:
>
> > If I am not mistaken, it is a common opinion, that the quality of
> > Hyperion Cantos slides off gradually with every book. As I
> > discovered, there is nothing gradual in the degradation. Surely
> > Hyperion has it's flaws, but in general, its a very good book. So
> > after finishing it, and starting The Fall of Hyperion, I was
> > expecting a good, decent novel. And its not what I found. What I
> > found was an unfocused, inconsistent, vague plot. Characters acting
> > not on the base of the novels's inner drive, but rather on authors
> > will. Often cases of deus ex machina, and plot lines which start with
> > great promise, and come to nought
>
> The nice thing about "reviews" like this is that there's really nothing
> to say. One can agree or disagree, but because of the terms staked out
> there's no room for actual _discussion_. So I'll just say "I disagree"
> and move on.
Why did you bother than, to read the message anyway?
The subject line clearly states: "The Fall of hyperion - and what a
fall [ review of shortcomings ]"
What part exactly of the title, you didn't understand?
And "I disagree" isn't exactly an argumentative reply.
My bet is, that you don't realy remember the book, so therefore there
is nothing feasable, you can say on the subject. You just know that
you like Simmons.
Marduk, aka, Michael Polischuk
Bruce Baugh
mar...@walla.co.il (Marduk) wrote:
> My bet is, that you don't realy remember the book, so therefore there
> is nothing feasable, you can say on the subject. You just know that
> you like Simmons.
I re-read it six months ago, actually, as part of re-reading the set of
four, and it remains vividly in my mind. There are indeed specific weak
spots in it - the major disappearance from book 1 is resolved far too
abruptly, for instance - but on the whole I found it very solid, very
worthwhile, and strongly suitable. I just don't quite know what to say
about the idea that Severn's death is time-filling and inappropriate, to
pick one example. I think both books (and the latter two) hang together
beautifully.
Marduk
> In article <2c1146aa.01123...@posting.google.com>,
> mar...@walla.co.il (Marduk) wrote:
>
> > My bet is, that you don't realy remember the book, so therefore there
> > is nothing feasable, you can say on the subject. You just know that
> > you like Simmons.
>
> I re-read it six months ago, actually, as part of re-reading the set of
> four, and it remains vividly in my mind. There are indeed specific weak
> spots in it - the major disappearance from book 1 is resolved far too
> abruptly, for instance - but on the whole I found it very solid, very
> worthwhile, and strongly suitable. I just don't quite know what to say
> about the idea that Severn's death is time-filling and inappropriate, to
> pick one example. I think both books (and the latter two) hang together
> beautifully.
So what you are saying, is that you admit that the book is full of
flaws and shortcomings (you agree with my points) but still like the
book.
Fine with me
Marduk
Bruce Baugh
mar...@walla.co.il (Marduk) wrote:
> So what you are saying, is that you admit that the book is full of
> flaws and shortcomings (you agree with my points) but still like the
> book.
No. I am saying the book has _some_ flaws and shortcomings - but no more
than any work that length is likely to have - and that it possesses
great strengths which more than offset them as far as I'm concerned.
Among these strengths are the vivid evocation of the TechnoCore
experience, and in particular the sense with Ummon of a genuinely
transhuman intelligence, the unfolding characterizations, particularly
for those who've been dealing with what looks like the brutal choice
between total extinction and near-total extinction, the nesting loops
through time, and...a bunch else. The Hyperion story in its totality is
one of my favorites, and while no work is ever unblemished, I find the
gains much greater than the losses.
Marduk
> In article <2c1146aa.02010...@posting.google.com>,
> mar...@walla.co.il (Marduk) wrote:
>
> > So what you are saying, is that you admit that the book is full of
> > flaws and shortcomings (you agree with my points) but still like the
> > book.
>
> No. I am saying the book has _some_ flaws and shortcomings - but no more
> than any work that length is likely to have
What a weird thing to say. As if there is any relation between the
lenght of a novel, and its quality. There are many masterpieces of a
greater volume ( You can think about any example you want), and in the
same time, how many short stories you have read, that were total junk.
The only thing that counts is the writer's talent. The flaws in "The
Fall" do not arise because of its lenght, if anything, I would say
that it's lenght is one of its flaws. As I pointed out already, I felt
that many scenes were put in the novel, just to pump its volume.
> and that it possesses
> great strengths which more than offset them as far as I'm concerned.
> Among these strengths are the vivid evocation of the TechnoCore
> experience, and in particular the sense with Ummon of a genuinely
> transhuman intelligence
Imo there was nothing vivid in core's description. It was just a
simple mix of cyberpunk (and quite banal one, he just couldn't do
without ICE) and a system of analogies. Everything was "just like"
something from the real world.
Now, this sense that Ummon was "genuinely transhuman intelligence"
,you are talking about, well as far as I can see, it was achieved by
applying a different font to Ummon's monologs, and the constent usage
of "/", "\", "\\" instead of commas.
> the unfolding characterizations, particularly
> for those who've been dealing with what looks like the brutal choice
> between total extinction and near-total extinction, the nesting loops
> through time
One phrase: "The Paradox Board"
give me a break.
> and...a bunch else. The Hyperion story in its totality is
> one of my favorites, and while no work is ever unblemished, I find the
> gains much greater than the losses.
Obviously we have different opinions about the book.
Marduk
Bruce Baugh
> As I pointed out already, I felt that many scenes were put in the
> novel, just to pump its volume.
Like I said at the outset, "I disagree".
Todd Wojtalewski
the story were irrelevant or boring, I thought Simmons described an
intricate, fascinating universe that sated my imagination and
curiousity.
The way each book revealed more of a mystery that the reader did not
even know existed was fun. Not only this, but I really liked the
closing of the last book.
Though it has been a couple years since I read them, I still have the
lasting impression that I enjoyed the books very much, and I may
actually read them again (something I never do). They painted a
beautiful picture, introduced characters that were likable and deep,
and made me think, a little bit, about spirituality.
I tend to take stories as a whole. As a writer myself, I realize it
is much more difficult to write the big picture than it is to write
the details.
I also recently finished Lord of the Rings, which could easily fall
into the "superfluous" information or "author-motivation" circle.
However, the big picture made the story worth it.
Marduk
I don't want to start here Tolkien vs Simmons thread (a-la Tolkien vs
Joyce) but "superfluous" is realy the last thing one can say about
LoTR.
The depiction of charactes, places, scenery, history of the world in
LoTR is one of the most vivid, profound and well-thought, I've ever
met in literature.
Marduk
Bruce Baugh
tjw...@hotmail.com (Todd Wojtalewski) wrote:
> The way each book revealed more of a mystery that the reader did not
> even know existed was fun. Not only this, but I really liked the
> closing of the last book.
This is one of my favorite things, too - not "everything you know is
wrong", but "what's been explained so far is true, but here's more". And
I too liked the finale. I was really concerned that The Rise Of Endymion
couldn't possibly pull it all together, but it did.
> I tend to take stories as a whole. As a writer myself, I realize it
> is much more difficult to write the big picture than it is to write
> the details.
Sometimes a specific bit will just kill my suspension of disbelief. But
yeah, if I'm enjoying the whole, I will cut a lot of slack for specific
bits.
Todd Wojtalewski
> Joyce) but "superfluous" is realy the last thing one can say about
> LoTR.
> The depiction of charactes, places, scenery, history of the world in
> LoTR is one of the most vivid, profound and well-thought, I've ever
> met in literature.
I definitely agree with that. However, there are a lot of elements of
LoTR that contribute nothing to the grander scheme. The "songs", for
example, merely serve to break the cadence of the narration. I always
skipped over them, as they are horrible poetically. I feel Tolkein
wanted to demonstrate some sort of talent as a poet, and used the
books as his vehicle for this.
You claim Simmons does the same. In my opinion, his forays into this
realm are more entertaining and less tedious. They illustrated a
futuristic society with a broad scope of imagination.
I liked LoTR, mostly because the story as a whole was rewarding.
There were times, however, when I was tempted to give up. I never
felt that way with Simmons' work.
You should give the other books a chance. Do not expect them to be as
artistically creative and original as the first book. While Hyperion
deigns to tell a small story from an intimate point of view, its
sequels encompass a wider idea. The worlds described in the Endymion
books are fantastic, and I assure you that the main character is very
likeable.
Todd Wojtalewski
> wrong", but "what's been explained so far is true, but here's more". And
> I too liked the finale. I was really concerned that The Rise Of Endymion
> couldn't possibly pull it all together, but it did.
Agreed. It made me think for several days afterwards. I still
consider the "theory" it presents as a viable explanation.
> Sometimes a specific bit will just kill my suspension of disbelief. But
> yeah, if I'm enjoying the whole, I will cut a lot of slack for specific
> bits.
Exactly. Any shmuck can write a chapter. The part that requires
talent is making that chapter fit into a good story.
Ray Blaak
> This is one of my favorite things, too - not "everything you know is
> wrong", but "what's been explained so far is true, but here's more". And
> I too liked the finale. I was really concerned that The Rise Of Endymion
> couldn't possibly pull it all together, but it did.
The Hyperion series was one of my all time favourites, and I think that Simmons
in general is a good author.
However, as for the finale...
[SPOILERS...is this even necessary?...]
x
x
x
x
x
x
x
x
x
x
x
x
x
x
x
x
x
x
x
x
x
x
x
x
x
x
x
x
x
x
x
...the final conclusion that "love is the ultimate force in a happy collection
of joyous civilizations" just irked me intensely -- way too much like Barney
the dinosaur (scenes we'd like to see: Barney at recess saying to the local
bully "I love you!", and the resulting aftermath). I would have preferred
something more ambiguous, confusing, darker -- kind of like real life.
--
Cheers, The Rhythm is around me,
The Rhythm has control.
Ray Blaak The Rhythm is inside me,
bl...@telus.net The Rhythm has my soul.
LizM7
> In article <2c1146aa.02010...@posting.google.com>,
> mar...@walla.co.il (Marduk) wrote:
>
> > So what you are saying, is that you admit that the book is full of
> > flaws and shortcomings (you agree with my points) but still like the
> > book.
>
> No. I am saying the book has _some_ flaws and shortcomings - but no more
> than any work that length is likely to have - and that it possesses
> great strengths which more than offset them as far as I'm concerned.
> Among these strengths are the vivid evocation of the TechnoCore
> experience,
Nearly all of the classic cyberpunk works do it better.
> and in particular the sense with Ummon of a genuinely
> transhuman intelligence,
Genuinely transhuman? Try something speaking in riddles and CAPS and
<<odD qUOTatIoN MaRKs>> and in verse. Impressive? Hell, no. It's
been done before, countless times. Usually better.
> the unfolding characterizations, particularly
> for those who've been dealing with what looks like the brutal choice
> between total extinction and near-total extinction,
Something very neatly ignored in the conclusion. (Face it - where'd
the corpses in the maze come from?)
> the nesting loops
> through time,
Something which is again ignored.
> and...a bunch else. The Hyperion story in its totality is
> one of my favorites, and while no work is ever unblemished, I find the
> gains much greater than the losses.
I think Simmons should've stopped after Cantebury Tales.
- Liz
Marduk
In my original message, where I listed the shortcomings of the book, I
haven't even touched the subject of rip-offs. ( By the way, the
caption on the back of the books admits it, by calling hyperion "great
mix of sf zanres and themes" )
A lot of it comes from Asimov's Foundation. Earth being maliciously
destroyed, to give boost to galactic exploration and colonization.
Marduk
Marduk
> > Joyce) but "superfluous" is realy the last thing one can say about
> > LoTR.
> > The depiction of charactes, places, scenery, history of the world in
> > LoTR is one of the most vivid, profound and well-thought, I've ever
> > met in literature.
>
> I definitely agree with that. However, there are a lot of elements of
> LoTR that contribute nothing to the grander scheme. The "songs", for
> example, merely serve to break the cadence of the narration. I always
> skipped over them, as they are horrible poetically. I feel Tolkein
> wanted to demonstrate some sort of talent as a poet, and used the
> books as his vehicle for this.
Beatiful poetry. And not a mere excuse "to demonstrate some sort of
talent" (which he undoubtly posseses) but rather additional narrative
tool, which he uses beatifuly.
Are you going to say that
"...One Ring to rule them all, One Ring to find them,
One Ring to bring them all and in the darkness bind them..."
and
"From the ashes a fire shall be woken,
A light from the shadows shall spring;
Renewed shall be blade that was broken:
The crownless again shall be king"
and
"All that is gold does not glitter,
Not all those who wander are lost;
The old that is strong does not wither,
Deep roots are not reached by frost."
is horrible poetry?
I doubt, you have the faintest idea, of what you are talking about.
Marduk
Lois Tilton
> Beatiful poetry. And not a mere excuse "to demonstrate some sort of
> talent" (which he undoubtly posseses) but rather additional narrative
> tool, which he uses beatifuly.
> Are you going to say that
> "...One Ring to rule them all, One Ring to find them,
> One Ring to bring them all and in the darkness bind them..."
[snip more verse}
> is horrible poetry?
> I doubt, you have the faintest idea, of what you are talking about.
I think this is why it's not a good idea to argue about poetry.
--
LT
R. Mast
>
<snip>
>
> > the unfolding characterizations, particularly
> > for those who've been dealing with what looks like the brutal choice
> > between total extinction and near-total extinction,
>
> Something very neatly ignored in the conclusion. (Face it - where'd
> the corpses in the maze come from?)
>
It's been a while since I read the book so this is not going to be easy
to explain, but here goes. Didn't the Core have some way of destroying
the Ousters, and to protect humans, they told the populace to go into
the caves? So these bodies were one of the future results of the Core's
actions, but it never actually took place.
--
-R. Mast
Miguel Farah F.
>[...]
>I think Simmons should've stopped after Cantebury Tales.
Gee, I didn't know Mr. Simmons was SO old.
--
MIGUEL FARAH // mig...@nn.cl
#include <disclaimer.h> // http://www.nn.cl/~miguel
<*>
"They're not dead. They're metaphysically challenged."
- Joel, MST3K:The Magic Sword
asdfg
Actually, as hard as it may be to believe, all of the points you
mention
> The priest, Paul Dure, feels a great urge to understand, what the hell...
> Another almost identical example: Ummon (the AI) tells everything he...
>
> Severn (the main hero) appears in Meine Gladstone's dream. He succeeds...
>
> In the end of the book, when Simmons suddenly decides to wrap things
> Plot elements that come to nought (or get a very lousy resolution):
> Severn and Hunt (Gladstone's aid) get locked on Old Earth by the core.
> Kassad fights the Shrike endless amount of times, until, in just
another of those battles, Shrike gets to kill him. Ouh well.
get resolved and are explained in Endymion and Rise of Endymion. Fall
of Hyperion wasn't meant to be a conclusion - just the second book in
a series of four books. It just adds more questions which need to be
answered later. Although I liked the books a lot, I was initially
disappointed with the 'fundamental theory of the meaning of Life and
the Universe' he used at the end. It was nothing any self-respecting
hard Science Fiction author would use. And I suspect if you read the
last two books, you will have a problem with that too. But once you
accept/realize that this is really a fantasy story set in the future ,
rather than Science Fiction, you will like it. And although the books
use concepts and ideas used before, I think the primary purpose of the
sereis was to explore God and nature of humanity and all sorts of
philosophical stuff through sci-fi - and I thought it was great.
Another thing I should mention is that the last two books are
basically a love story.
I would recommend you at least borrow the next two books from someone
and read them.
-asdfg
Ian Galbraith
[snip]
:get resolved and are explained in Endymion and Rise of Endymion. Fall
:of Hyperion wasn't meant to be a conclusion -
Yes it was. In an interview with Locus Simmons stated that he had the
central idea for Endymion after he wrote the Hyperion books and
realized that he could use the Hyperion universe, already set up, for
the story.
[snip]
--
Ian Galbraith
Email: igalb...@ozonline.com.au ICQ#: 7849631
"Being cool requires no work. Mostly it requires detachment.
You can be cool and not care about being cool. Being hip
requires both style and effort. You can't be hip without
working at it." - The A.I. War by Daniel Keys Moran
Marduk
> Hi,
>
> Actually, as hard as it may be to believe, all of the points you
> mention
>
> > The priest, Paul Dure, feels a great urge to understand, what the hell...
> > Another almost identical example: Ummon (the AI) tells everything he...
> >
> > Severn (the main hero) appears in Meine Gladstone's dream. He succeeds...
> >
> > In the end of the book, when Simmons suddenly decides to wrap things
>
> > Plot elements that come to nought (or get a very lousy resolution):
>
> > Severn and Hunt (Gladstone's aid) get locked on Old Earth by the core.
>
> > Kassad fights the Shrike endless amount of times, until, in just
> another of those battles, Shrike gets to kill him. Ouh well.
get resolved and are explained in Endymion and Rise of Endymion.
[snip]
I don't accept the notion, that a book is allowed to be bad, as long
as it's "badness" is explained in later books. Every piece of
literature should be able to stand its own, even if it's part of large
epos. I have hard time to believe that " you haven't like the book
cause you haven't read the next 2 books. If you would have read them,
you would come to realize, how wonderful the book is"
Marduk
Matthias Warkus
...and Marduk <mar...@walla.co.il> wrote:
[Tolkien]
> Beatiful poetry. And not a mere excuse "to demonstrate some sort of
> talent" (which he undoubtly posseses) but rather additional narrative
> tool, which he uses beatifuly.
>
> Are you going to say that
> is horrible poetry?
I've read far better poetry. But as Lois already remarked, it doesn't
make much sense to argue about the relative quality of poems.
mawa
--
Level 6 - Presentation Layer
User asks on newsgroups "what is the best distro". User has tried with
varying success to install Linux. User experiencing a steep learning
curve. User is usually happier with Win95/98. -- Cliff Pratt
asdfg
started long after all the books were published so it seemed to me it
was meant to be a four book series from the begining. But if Hyperion
was meant to be a conclusion, it was a very bad one. But nevertheless,
the next two books do resolve the mysteries.
> I don't accept the notion, that a book is allowed to be bad, as long
> as it's "badness" is explained in later books. Every piece of
> literature should be able to stand its own, even if it's part of large
> epos. I have hard time to believe that " you haven't like the book
> cause you haven't read the next 2 books. If you would have read them,
> you would come to realize, how wonderful the book is"
I don't agree with the view that "Every piece of literature should be
able to stand its own, even if it's part of large epos." There are
lots of great series out there which have individual books that
wouldn't make much sense without the other books (e.g. A Song of Ice
and Fire). May be you prefer series with more sel-contained books -
but that's your preference. I personally don't like episodic series -
it gets boring real fast. It's the mysteries that makes me want to
keep reading.
So, you can't say FoH is bad simply because all the questions are not
answered as it is part of a series which is not episodic in nature.
-asdfg
Marduk
> It was the 6 Jan 2002 02:11:44 -0800...
> ...and Marduk <mar...@walla.co.il> wrote:
> [Tolkien]
> > Beatiful poetry. And not a mere excuse "to demonstrate some sort of
> > talent" (which he undoubtly posseses) but rather additional narrative
> > tool, which he uses beatifuly.
> >
> > Are you going to say that
> [three examples]
> > is horrible poetry?
>
> I've read far better poetry. But as Lois already remarked, it doesn't
> make much sense to argue about the relative quality of poems.
>
Todd claimed that songs in LoTR "merely serve to break the cadence of
the narration" and "contribute nothing to the grander scheme".
So I argue that in fact they do contribute a lot to LoTR.
Songs help in character depiction (can you think of Tom Bambadil,
without his singing?), create the right mood ( Bilbo leaving Shire,
singing his famous song about what expects him on his way) and give
additional background information, in more beautiful, subtle way.
Surely, the beuty of poetry is in the eye of the beholder, but the
fact that it contibutes a great deal to the books is Imo undoubtful.
Marduk
Lois Tilton
> Songs help in character depiction (can you think of Tom Bambadil,
> without his singing?)
While this is so, I fear it argues more for the elimination of
Bombadil rather than the inclusion of the songs.
--
LT
Miguel Farah F.
>On 6 Jan 2002 16:23:32 -0800, asdfg wrote:
>[snip]
>:get resolved and are explained in Endymion and Rise of Endymion. Fall
>:of Hyperion wasn't meant to be a conclusion -
>Yes it was. In an interview with Locus Simmons stated that he had the
>central idea for Endymion after he wrote the Hyperion books and
>realized that he could use the Hyperion universe, already set up, for
>the story.
Yet he changed the universe completely... not only everything is
upside down, he retcons EVERYTHING.
--
MIGUEL FARAH // mig...@nn.cl
#include <disclaimer.h> // http://www.nn.cl/~miguel
<*>
"- Y como sabe que este es el asesino?
- Porque yo soy Sherlock Holmes, y todo el mundo a callarse!"
- Gila
Ian Galbraith
:I wasn't aware that Hyperion was meant to be the conclusion - I
:started long after all the books were published so it seemed to me it
:was meant to be a four book series from the begining. But if Hyperion
:was meant to be a conclusion, it was a very bad one. But nevertheless,
:the next two books do resolve the mysteries.
Leaving things unresolved is not necessarily a qualitative judgement.
Some people feel Simmons should have stopped at Hyperion, and not even
done Fall of Hyperion.
Rosy with a why
> In article <bd84f0ea.02010...@posting.google.com>,
> tjw...@hotmail.com (Todd Wojtalewski) wrote:
>
> > The way each book revealed more of a mystery that the reader did not
> > even know existed was fun. Not only this, but I really liked the
> > closing of the last book.
>
> This is one of my favorite things, too - not "everything you know is
> wrong", but "what's been explained so far is true, but here's more". And
> I too liked the finale. I was really concerned that The Rise Of Endymion
> couldn't possibly pull it all together, but it did.
>
> > I tend to take stories as a whole. As a writer myself, I realize it
> > is much more difficult to write the big picture than it is to write
> > the details.
>
> Sometimes a specific bit will just kill my suspension of disbelief. But
> yeah, if I'm enjoying the whole, I will cut a lot of slack for specific
> bits.
Now, I really liked the first book. The second book was good, but some
of it seemed to be forced, as if the original was originally meant to
stand alone and so the story of the second had jagged edges. I enjoyed
the third and fourth, and they had good parts. But the sense of it
being held together with string and wood-glue got stronger and
stronger. Whole sections of the previous books had to be dismissed or
written-off Scooby Doo style. And that pisses me off.
I'm reading _The Wild_ by _David Zindell_ right now, and am enjoying
it immensely. Please tell me this series doesn't weaken, too....
William December Starr
"Miguel Farah F." <mig...@nn.cl> sigged:
> MIGUEL FARAH // mig...@nn.cl
> #include <disclaimer.h> // http://www.nn.cl/~miguel
> <*>
> "- Y como sabe que este es el asesino?
> - Porque yo soy Sherlock Holmes, y todo el mundo a callarse!"
> - Gila
I just ran that through the Babel Fish at
>http://babelfish.altavista.com/translate.dyn>, and it said:
" - and as it knows that this he is the assassin?
- Because I am Sherlock Holmes, and everybody to shut up itself "
Software still needs a bit of smoothing out, I'd say...
(Who's Gila, anyway?)
-- William December Starr <wds...@panix.com>
Andrew Ducker
@news.latrobe.edu.au:
> On 7 Jan 2002 12:51:42 -0800, asdfg wrote:
>
>:I wasn't aware that Hyperion was meant to be the conclusion - I
>:started long after all the books were published so it seemed to me it
>:was meant to be a four book series from the begining. But if Hyperion
>:was meant to be a conclusion, it was a very bad one. But nevertheless,
>:the next two books do resolve the mysteries.
>
> Leaving things unresolved is not necessarily a qualitative judgement.
> Some people feel Simmons should have stopped at Hyperion, and not even
> done Fall of Hyperion.
Definitely. I loved the end of Hyperion and felt somewhat cheated when I
discovered there was a sequel. Not nearly as cheated as when I read it, of
course.
Andy D
Marduk
Read again my original post. I explain quite clearly, what I'm not
happy with, and it's not the fact that "all the questions aren't
answered".
As I said already, the plot of The Fall seems to me inconsistent,
incoherent and in many places arbitrary.
I do like as you call it "episodic series", series that must be read
in particular order, but I bother to read the whole series only if I
find every book of the epos satisfying.
I loved Wolfe's "The Shadow of the Torturer", thats why I'm going to
read "The Claw". The common opinion is that the novel is "confusing",
full of unresolved misteries, and that it is a good idea to read it
again, after reading the whole series. Despite all that, it does stand
on its own, and it is a good piece of literature despite all the
untied ends. ( In fact it's just the begining of Severian's journey).
On the other hand, I disliked Le-Guin's "The Wizard of Eartsea", so I
am not going to bother with anything else, that was written by Le-Guin
about this world, till I hear a strong recomendation, cause I have
hard time to beleive it's going to be any better.
Marduk
Andrew Ducker
news:2c1146aa.02010...@posting.google.com:
> am not going to bother with anything else, that was written by Le-Guin
> about this world, till I hear a strong recomendation, cause I have
> hard time to beleive it's going to be any better.
Or you recover from whatever concussion it was that caused you to not like
it.
On a similar note, do people generally go back to a book and try again if
enough people say "No, really, John Norman's Gor series is best thing since
Ulysses, you must have been having a bad day when you read it."?
Andy D
asdfg
Hi,
Actually, what I meant was that the inconsistencies are explained.
That's what I meant by 'unanswered questions' from the begining. Sorry
for not being clear.
-asdfg
Miguel Farah F.
Proper translation:
"So how do you know he's the assassin?"
"Because I'm Sherlock Holmes, so everyone shut up!"
Gila was a spanish stand-up comedian, known for his:
1) long monologues (in those he would tell some aspect of the story of
his life - very funny stuff)
2) fictitious phone conversations (he would do his entire routine
talking to someone on the phone - legendary, I tell you).
Sadly, he died last year.
--
MIGUEL FARAH // mig...@nn.cl
#include <disclaimer.h> // http://www.nn.cl/~miguel
<*>
"Are you suggesting coconuts migrate?"
- MONTY PYTHON and THE HOLY GRAIL
M0nti Pyth0n ik den H0lie Gralen
Konrad Gaertner
Ahh, a Bob Newhart imitator.
--KG
Miguel Farah F.
Actually, no. He was pretty original (he became known BEFORE TV, by the
way).
--
MIGUEL FARAH // mig...@nn.cl
#include <disclaimer.h> // http://www.nn.cl/~miguel
<*>
"In the beginning was the Word. Then came the fucking word processor.
Then came the thought processor. Then came the death of literature. And
so it goes."
- Martin Silenus, _Hyperion_
Lee DeRaud
<mig...@nn.cl> wrote:
>Konrad Gaertner <kgae...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>>Ahh, a Bob Newhart imitator.
>
>Actually, no. He was pretty original (he became known BEFORE TV, by the
>way).
Oh, a Shelly Berman imitator.
Lee
Marduk
Wait a minute, wasn't it written by Pierce Anthony?
Marduk
Martin Wisse
wrote:
>> This is one of my favorite things, too - not "everything you know is
>> wrong", but "what's been explained so far is true, but here's more". And
>> I too liked the finale. I was really concerned that The Rise Of Endymion
>> couldn't possibly pull it all together, but it did.
>
>Agreed. It made me think for several days afterwards. I still
>consider the "theory" it presents as a viable explanation.
It made me think too. It made me think why Simmons felt the need to
waste the impact of Hyperion/Fall of Hyperion with such crap.
Martin Wisse
--
"Check out these HOT lounge chairs do anything but lounge!
Better get that garden hose!"
<http://www.furnitureporn.com>
Marduk
Not that I bought the first two books, but anyway, I'm pretty sure
that I will read Endymion only if I have to choose between it and Star
Wars novel.
Marduk
William December Starr
gae...@aol.com said:
>> Gila was a spanish stand-up comedian, known for his:
>> 1) long monologues (in those he would tell some aspect of the story
>> of his life - very funny stuff)
>> 2) fictitious phone conversations (he would do his entire routine
>> talking to someone on the phone - legendary, I tell you).
>>
>> Sadly, he died last year.
>
> Ahh, a Bob Newhart imitator.
Dang. I was going to suggest that Newhart was the guy on the other
end of the phone line, but you beat me to it...