Dear Mr. Busiek - Your Opinion? (Was: How did Gwen Stacy Die?)
Kevin
What is your opinion/fact/story of how Gwen died? Did she die:
1. Off panel by the Goblin via fright, trauma, etc.
2. Suffocation from the drop
3. Her neck snapping when her fall was stopped by the webbing
4. Being hit by the glider
5. Other
Thanks for your input into this age old Marvel question that probably
is pretty obvious.
My pick? The sound effect seems to indicate that it was option #3,
but dear god, that would be far too cruel to Spidey. Of course had he
not caught her with the web, she would have died anyway. as he
probably couldn't have reached her in time (thus the web in the first
place).
Kevin
ANIM8Rfsk
not caught her with the web, she would have died anyway >>
Maybe not.
People survive having their parachute not open.
Being unconcious would help.
It's also unclear to me if she'd fallen straight down if she'd have hit
concrete or water, but I would think water - that would help, too.
George F. Grattan
Falling in an uncontrolled dive from the top of one of the towers of the
Brooklyn Bridge makes it pretty likely you're going to die hitting the
water- especially if you're unconscious already. At that height, there's
very little difference between hitting water and concrete- and the only edge
Gwen would have had would have been if she'd been conscious and
knowledgeable enough to adjust her angle of entry to give her the best
chances possible. As it was- it likely wouldn't have made a difference
whether she was headed for the water or a portion of the bridge beneath.
>
George F. Grattan
grat...@bc.edu
"When we love the earth, we are able to love ourselves more fully."--
bell hooks
GrapeApe
>> concrete or water, but I would think water - that would help, too.
>
>Falling in an uncontrolled dive from the top of one of the towers of the
>Brooklyn Bridge makes it pretty likely you're going to die hitting the
>water- especially if you're unconscious already. At that height, there's
>very little difference between hitting water and concrete- and the only
>edge
>Gwen would have had would have been if she'd been conscious and
>knowledgeable enough to adjust her angle of entry to give her the best
>chances possible. As it was- it likely wouldn't have made a difference
>whether she was headed for the water or a portion of the bridge beneath.
A story and a half fall would have been enough to break Gwens neck, if Spidey
caught her with a noose, for example.
Gwen would have reached terminal velocity in 6 seconds, around 124 mph., 55
meters per second, and would have fallen 189 feet of the 280 or so available
to fall, She would have hit the water in 8 seconds.
Professional High divers have survived 90 foot dives usually entering about
terminal velocity. There is a chance that if she woke up and smelled the coffee
and did her best Esther Williams she may have survived. She might have gotten
one hell of a wedgie.
So Petey, any one saying she was dead already was just trying to spare your
feelings. You croaked her.
Bwa ha ha,
your friend
Norman
KurtBusiek
I think her neck snapped.
I further think that a careful reading of the issues (and the one before it)
indicates that Peter was sick with a cold, and his instincts and judgment were
blurred, and I suspect that the original intent may have been that Peter could
have saved her, but he screwed up and killed her due to his timing and judgment
being off. Thus, this death would have been his fault, and the reverse of the
Uncle Ben situation -- Uncle Ben died because he failed to act as Spidey, Gwen
died because he acted.
If this was the case, though, then at some point someone decided that this was
a bad idea, and the book's script was altered prior to it being lettered, to
delete any references to Peter screwing up due to the cold, and to make it
clear that she died from "the shock of the fall," whatever that is. But in
editing the script, they forgot to take out the SNAP sound effect.
I've mentioned this to Gerry Conway, who says he doesn't remember anything like
that happening, that his memory of it was that it was always intended to be the
way it came out. So maybe I'm just imagining things, but if it happened the
way Gerry remembered it, there's no reason for that SNAP to be there.
I'll have to ask John Sr. about it sometime.
In any case, it's an interesting hypothesis -- and even if the creators didn't
intend it, the "clues" could be picked up on at some point.
Did Spidey fail to save Gwen? Or did he actually kill her?
Hmm?
kdb
Ian Boothby
KurtBusiek <kurtb...@aol.comics> wrote in message
news:20010910175600...@mb-ck.aol.com...
> >>What is your opinion/fact/story of how Gwen died?>>
>
> I think her neck snapped.
>
> I further think that a careful reading of the issues (and the one before
it)
> indicates that Peter was sick with a cold, and his instincts and judgment
were
> blurred, and I suspect that the original intent may have been that Peter
could
> have saved her, but he screwed up and killed her due to his timing and
judgment
> being off. Thus, this death would have been his fault, and the reverse of
the
> Uncle Ben situation -- Uncle Ben died because he failed to act as Spidey,
Gwen
> died because he acted.
>
It's a shame this is one of the few times real life physics came into
effect. Spidey's saved
many people by catching them with his web in the past and no snappage.
Ian Boothby
Ian Boothby
goblin in an attempt to hurt Peter. She'd be insane and fall in love with
Norm and so on. The treatment had just happened and so the stress had
knocked her unconscious.
Now since Osborn could survive a metal glider through the heart, Gwen could
easily live though a snapped neck. Norm looked dead as a doornail and she
could have too.
The Obsorn could have taken her body and held her prisoner for all this time
waiting for the right time to reveal the new female Green Goblin.
Or not, you know...whatever...
Ian Boothby
Dale Hicks
anim...@aol.comNOSPAM says...
> << Of course had he
> not caught her with the web, she would have died anyway >>
>
> Maybe not.
>
> People survive having their parachute not open.
>
> Being unconcious would help.
Bah. Not for someone with a neck as puny as that.
People talk about the storytelling chops of the forebearers, but that one
scene looked nothing like a neck whiplash. In fact, it looked like she
snapped her own neck.
--
Cranial Crusader dgh...@bellsouth.net
Lurker
"Ian Boothby" <iboo...@direct.ca> wrote in message
news:4Oan7.92$Tr5....@brie.direct.ca...
AAaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
Stop giving them ideas.
I can't picture this with the current creators on any of the Spidey titles,
but
you never know. :-)
Matt Adler
> Did Spidey fail to save Gwen? Or did he actually kill her?
>
> Hmm?
Well, there was a much later story (sometime in the 90's) where he returns
to the bridge and goes over in his mind what he could have done differently,
and realizes if he had swung across in an arc, he could have caught her
without the sudden stop that broke her neck. So later writers, at least,
have established that he is partially responsible for her death.
--
"Hmm, Mr. Immortal has the makings of an interesting concept, but c'mon,
Flatman is kind of dopey."
"Dopey? Where's your SENSE OF WONDER? Your vacant eyes betray the DEADNESS
OF YOUR VERY SOUL!"
-- As told by Adam Cadre
Brian Doyle
the
> goblin in an attempt to hurt Peter. She'd be insane and fall in love with
> Norm and so on. The treatment had just happened and so the stress had
> knocked her unconscious.
Oh dear lord, the Green Goblinette! The truly frightening thing is I can see
that working, well, not "working" perhaps but at least being done!
:-o
Robert Carnegie
> "KurtBusiek" <kurtb...@aol.comics> wrote:
>
> > Did Spidey fail to save Gwen? Or did he actually kill her?
> >
> > Hmm?
>
> Well, there was a much later story (sometime in the 90's) where he returns
> to the bridge and goes over in his mind what he could have done differently,
> and realizes if he had swung across in an arc, he could have caught her
> without the sudden stop that broke her neck. So later writers, at least,
> have established that he is partially responsible for her death.
I wouldn't say responsible. She'd be just as dead if Peter had
stayed home that day. Of course, there's the whole "with great power"
Uncle Ben thing, which says that Spider-Man _is_ responsible.
But he was there, despite being sick, and he was doing his best.
I don't think we can ask for more.
But as to the post mortem, there's that _What If_, too, where Peter
_jumps_ and catches her. The Watcher reckons that that's what makes
the difference. But what made him jump, instead of using webs?
Oh, Hypertime, or something.
Padguy
>like
>that happening, that his memory of it was that it was always intended to be
>the
>way it came out. So maybe I'm just imagining things, but if it happened the
>way Gerry remembered it, there's no reason for that SNAP to be there.
>
PAD
KurtBusiek
Snapper did it with his Blaster powers! All part of a plot by DC...
kdb
Tim Roll-Pickering
> Well, there was a much later story (sometime in the 90's) where he returns
> to the bridge and goes over in his mind what he could have done differently,
> and realizes if he had swung across in an arc, he could have caught her
> without the sudden stop that broke her neck. So later writers, at least,
> have established that he is partially responsible for her death.
Three stories spring to mind.
The first is from the original 'What If...?' series, with a story 'What
If Gwen Stacy Had Lived?' I think it was #31 but I've only read it in
reprint. In this Spidey suddenly changes his mind and dives down after
Gwen and overtakes her. He then fires his webbing... but due the wind it
misses and so he has to shield Gwen with his body as they hit the water.
Gwen's in a terrible state when he gets her out of the water but she's
alive.
The second is Amazing #275 when Hobgoblin throws Sha Shan off his glider
and Spidey is reminded of Gwen. As in the What If story he dives down,
turns her around and fires his webbing - this time it catches on
something.
The third is Web #125. Peter (in the Scarlet Spider costume due to the
wider Clone saga) is on the bridge trying to catch Gwen's clone.
The-then new Green Goblin got involved anhd Gwen's clone once more fell
off the bridge. Spidey saved her by going after her and redirecting her
momentum rather than arresting it. IIRC there's even a comment that he
knows what he shouldn't do...
This certainly implies that the view taken since that story is that it
was the webbing, though whether she would have lived if Spidey had done
nothing or something else remains conjecture.
Ian Boothby
Brian Doyle <b.d...@rl.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:9nkleh$j...@newton.cc.rl.ac.uk...
Ah where's What If? when you need it.
Ian Boothby
Oh and now that I think about it the name should be the Gwen Goblin.
John B 821
<iboo...@direct.ca> writes:
>> Oh dear lord, the Green Goblinette! The truly frightening thing is I can
>see
>> that working, well, not "working" perhaps but at least being done!
>>
>> :-o
>
>Ah where's What If? when you need it.
>
Maybe they could try it in Spider-Girl. But only if they arrange it so
Peter has to save May from Gwen.
quimico
>"Matt Adler" <mad...@ic.sunysb.edu> wrote in message news:<o2dn7.94996$tb.96...@news02.optonline.net>...
>> "KurtBusiek" <kurtb...@aol.comics> wrote:
>>
>> > Did Spidey fail to save Gwen? Or did he actually kill her?
>> >
>> > Hmm?
>>
>> Well, there was a much later story (sometime in the 90's) where he returns
>> to the bridge and goes over in his mind what he could have done differently,
>> and realizes if he had swung across in an arc, he could have caught her
>> without the sudden stop that broke her neck. So later writers, at least,
>> have established that he is partially responsible for her death.
>
>I wouldn't say responsible. She'd be just as dead if Peter had
>stayed home that day.
No, not necessarily . The Green Goblin might have failed to contact him
and "saved" Gwen for "baiting" another trap for Spidey.
quimico
I actually prefer the way I thought they would use (at the time) to
bring her back. I thought Green Goblin had announce so gleefully that
she was dead because he KNEW he had brought a corpse to the bridge.
It also made sense that the corpse wasn't really Gwen's because GG
knew things might not go the way he planned. There was a lot that
could go wrong, like Peter realizing that the supposed "Gwen" wasn't
breathing. So GG tucked Gwen away someplace, and Peter could find her
now...
Isaac
>>>What is your opinion/fact/story of how Gwen died?>>
>
>I think her neck snapped.
>
>I further think that a careful reading of the issues (and the one before it)
>indicates that Peter was sick with a cold, and his instincts and judgment were
>blurred, and I suspect that the original intent may have been that Peter could
>have saved her, but he screwed up and killed her due to his timing and judgment
>being off. Thus, this death would have been his fault, and the reverse of the
>Uncle Ben situation -- Uncle Ben died because he failed to act as Spidey, Gwen
>died because he acted.
>
I think an equally valid interpretation is that Peter was unaware of the
care required in that particular situation.
Prior to this incident, he'd caught falling people using pretty much
the same technique he used with Gwen without killing or seriously
hurting any of them, although I don't remember any of them ever being
unconscious. My reading at the time the story came out was
that Peter did pretty much what he always did when he needed to
save falling people, but on that awful occasion, he was either unlucky
or failed to take into account Gwen being unconscious. Given the small
amount of time to act, I'm not sure that his failure even rises to the
level of negligence. (What the heck is reasonable for someone with
spider-powers anyways)
I think Peter did the best he knew how to do at the time, but
unfortunately his best simply wasn't good enough. The Globin was
still fully and ultimately responsible for Gwen's death. Peter's
failure did make it more difficult for Peter to deal with
the death, but the Goblin killed Gwen.
>I've mentioned this to Gerry Conway, who says he doesn't remember anything like
>that happening, that his memory of it was that it was always intended to be the
>way it came out. So maybe I'm just imagining things, but if it happened the
>way Gerry remembered it, there's no reason for that SNAP to be there.
I fully agree.
My further recollection is that whoever was answering letters at that
time confirmed in a subsequent letter column that the SNAP had exactly
the significance you describe. Gwen death resulted from whiplash during
Peter's attempt to save her.
>I'll have to ask John Sr. about it sometime.
>
>In any case, it's an interesting hypothesis -- and even if the creators didn't
>intend it, the "clues" could be picked up on at some point.
>
>Did Spidey fail to save Gwen? Or did he actually kill her?
I seem to remember Spidey being extra careful with the next falling
person he had to save. I took that as a sign that if he had a
second chance, he could have avoided the unfortunate snap.
Isaac
Peter Svensson
> If this was the case, though, then at some point someone decided that this was
> a bad idea, and the book's script was altered prior to it being lettered, to
> delete any references to Peter screwing up due to the cold, and to make it
> clear that she died from "the shock of the fall," whatever that is. But in
> editing the script, they forgot to take out the SNAP sound effect.
You know, I was thinking about this. Wouldn't the CCA have a cow if
the hero killed his girlfriend? And did Marvel have the same
regulations that lead to Jean Grey's death because murderers can't be
heroes?
So perhaps making seem as if the fall killed her was done to please
the authorities, with the snap there to let sharp eyed readers know
the truth?
Peter Svensson | http://www.comicboards.com/manga
KurtBusiek
killed his girlfriend?>>
Beats me -- but I doubt it. It wouldn't be as if he killed her intentionally
-- he wouldn't be acting immorally (by the standards of the time) and getting
away with it; he'd simply be failing. The CCA got cranky about bad guys
getting away with it, not about good guys failing at what they attempted.
>>And did Marvel have the same regulations that lead to Jean Grey's death
because murderers can't be heroes?>>
No. Marvel has (and had) far fewer "regulations" than readers assume -- it's
generally decisions made by individuals on a case-by-case basis. Jim Shooter
decided that Jean had to die (or go to the Marvel equivalent of Takron-Galtos)
because he felt that intentional, knowing genocide deserved a price higher than
what Chris and John had planned -- but there's a big difference between
intentional genocide and screwing up while you're trying to save someone.
And Jim wasn't in charge when Gwen died. And for that matter, the Punisher's
done all right over the years, negating any assumption that Marvel had a
line-wide policy against presenting murderers as heroes.
>>So perhaps making seem as if the fall killed her was done to please the
authorities, with the snap there to let sharp eyed readers know the truth?>>
If that was the case, I'm sure someone would have told the story by now, and
they haven't.
kdb