[GN] SF as Mecca?!?
Devil Doll
"Marc Stauffer" <stau...@washpost.com> wrote:
>...SF is still in many ways the mandatory pilgrimage for all Gays.
Ugh!
*How* wrong you are!
Do you have any idea how few gays relate at any kind of personal level to the SF idea of what being gay is about?
My lover moved from there to be with me, still has friends there, goes there every few months. His friends are all gorgeous, active, and lonely as hell. Some of them think their chances for love have passed because they're approaching 30.
The SF "queer" life is what we're ESCAPING from!
It has nothing to offer anyone who's deeper than a rain puddle.
==
Devil Doll
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Roger B.A. Klorese
> The SF "queer" life is what we're ESCAPING from!
>
> It has nothing to offer anyone who's deeper than a rain puddle.
That's nice, Chris. I'll be sure and tell Tom Ammiano, Susan Leal, Mark
Leno, Jim Hormel, Carol Migden, Michael Tilson Thomas, and many others
how empty their lives are.
--
ROGER B.A. KLORESE rog...@QueerNet.ORG
PO Box 14309 San Francisco, CA 94114
"There is only one real blasphemy -- the refusal of joy!" -- Paul Rudnick
Devil Doll
>That's nice, Chris. I'll be sure and tell Tom Ammiano, Susan Leal, Mark
>Leno, Jim Hormel, Carol Migden, Michael Tilson Thomas, and many others
>how empty their lives are.
Oh yes Roger you know SO many happily overweight and polyamorous people leading such rich lives. Is there *any* outlier on the bell curve that doesn't touch your life every day?
Am I supposed to be impressed with your acquaintance of famous people? I'm not.
I stand by my words: the gay life of your city ... or anywhere that the subculture holds sway ... is painfully empty. It has nothing to offer people who need richness in their lives.
Why am I even bothering to tell you this? When you travel, you go to strip shows or something, don't you?
==
Devil Doll
devi...@GodIsDead.com
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http://home.earthlink.net/~chrisfox/
"All I like to think of now is the cool spring rains washing the fever from the bones of the dead, that they might find their hollows in the earth"
-- Bela Bartók, speaking of the Holocaust victims
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Todd Morman
> The SF "queer" life is what we're ESCAPING from!
>
> It has nothing to offer anyone who's deeper than a rain puddle.
I gather there's only one kind of "SF queer life."
You speak in such obviously shallow and insulting generalities that your
posts are pretty much worthless, Devil Doll. I'm not sure why folks keep
arguing with you, but hey, different strokes.
Does anyone think there aren't a number of different "SF queer lives"
available? Some of them, I bet, even allow for (gasp) thinking. Maybe even
(double gasp) love.
Stereotyping sucks.
Todd Morman
Queer Media Report
Devil Doll
>I gather there's only one kind of "SF queer life."
No. There is however pretty much one "queer culture," and it hurls chunks.
CHUNKS, I TELL YOU
And yes it is pretty much the same culture everywhere, the difference being a matter of degree. Go to Seattle's Capitol Hill or SF's Castro and yes, it is pretty much the same. People talk with a certain universal affectation, they walk with a certain sway, they use the same set of exclamations and expressions not used elsewhere .. except in the little "queer" cease-fire zones.
"Puh-lease!"
It's the same everywhere.
I gather you don't really disagree with what I'm saying, otherwise you would have something, well, something more *specific* to use by way of contradiction than that tiresome and trite notice that I'm making a "generalization."
Of course it's a generalization. It's also a true one.
And if you think "straight" culture is oppressive, wait till you've been targeted by a gay-PC villification campaign!
==
Devil Doll
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http://home.earthlink.net/~chrisfox/
"All I like to think of now is the cool spring rains washing the fever from the bones of the dead, that they might find their hollows in the earth"
-- Bela Bartók, speaking of the Holocaust victims
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Roger B.A. Klorese
> leading such rich lives. Is there *any* outlier on the bell curve that
> doesn't touch your life every day?
My, how relevant. Not.
> Am I supposed to be impressed with your acquaintance of famous
> people? I'm not.
My, how well-formulated. NOT.
The point is that these successful gay men and lesbians of remarkable
achievement are as much a part of the gay life of this city as anything
else you point your shame-stick at.
> Why am I even bothering to tell you this? When you travel, you go to
> strip shows or something, don't you?
As well as museums, theater, opera, political events... and lots more,
yes, I do.
--
ROGER B.A. KLORESE rog...@QueerNet.ORG
PO Box 14309 San Francisco, CA 94114
"There is only one real blasphemy -- the refusal of joy!" -- Paul Rudnick
Devil Doll
>My, how relevant. Not.
"Not." How trendy!
>My, how well-formulated. NOT.
See above.
>The point is that these successful gay men and lesbians of remarkable
>achievement are as much a part of the gay life of this city as anything
>else you point your shame-stick at.
A common fallacy!
Gay people, gay politics, gay sex, gay culture ... these are all different things. Not everyone who is gay belongs to that shabby little culture of glorified furtiveness; most of us have reactions to it that range from embarrassment to loathing to detachment .. but which don't include feeling involved with it.
I went to Capitol Hill last night, first time in about a year. How *ugly* it is! And last time I was in your town, much though I love what San Francisco has to offer, the Castro is definitely a 'hood to steer clear of. Faces there look anything but happy and wholesome; they have the sort of looks one expects to find in a police station or the waiting room of a surgery. Strained, seamed, lined, worried, stressed.
Ugh. You can keep it. "Diversity" and all. Leather and drag and kiosks with "queer" this and that in their names. Affected nonchalance and aristocratic pretensions. Two-dimensional images in motion, canned sexuality, stereotypes on parade, aggressive superficiality you gotta problem with that?
Gay people are *so* much happier and healthier when they come out ... your horrible little culture is a holding pattern for people who still have a foot in the closet.
Escape it!
Ponder the carrion flower, Roger Maggot.
==
Devil Doll
devi...@GodIsDead.com
devi...@SuperVillains.org
http://home.earthlink.net/~chrisfox/
"All I like to think of now is the cool spring rains washing the fever from the bones of the dead, that they might find their hollows in the earth"
-- Bela Bartók, speaking of the Holocaust victims
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Roger B.A. Klorese
> different things. Not everyone who is gay belongs to that shabby little
> culture of glorified furtiveness; most of us have reactions to it that
> range from embarrassment to loathing to detachment .. but which don't
> include feeling involved with it.
But the poeple I listed *are* involved in it, at least to some
extent; they were carefully and specifically chosen as such.
> Ponder the carrion flower, Roger Maggot.
Do you have some trouble understanding the name-calling ban, Chris? You
have a (dormant) list of your own to use if you wish to call names.
--
ROGER B.A. KLORESE rog...@QueerNet.ORG
PO Box 14309 San Francisco, CA 94114
"There is only one real blasphemy -- the refusal of joy!" -- Paul Rudnick
Todd Morman
> There is however pretty much one "queer culture,"
> and it hurls chunks.
>
> CHUNKS, I TELL YOU
*plonk*
Should've done that a long time ago.
Todd
Devil Doll
>> Ponder the carrion flower, Roger Maggot.
>Do you have some trouble understanding the name-calling ban, Chris? You
>have a (dormant) list of your own to use if you wish to call names.
I must only presume that the "name-calling ban" is unidirectional.
Anywaym it's not name-calling. It's a play on "Roger Rabbit." PONDER THE CARRION FLOWER, Roger, the five-pointed star flower of the Asclepiadaceć ... and ponder deeply what happens to the maggots.
And why!
Then think of your horrid little culture.
==
Devil Doll
devi...@GodIsDead.com
devi...@SuperVillains.org
http://home.earthlink.net/~chrisfox/
"All I like to think of now is the cool spring rains washing the fever from the bones of the dead, that they might find their hollows in the earth"
-- Bela Bartók, speaking of the Holocaust victims
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Roger B.A. Klorese
Not at all -- where have I called you names?
> Anywaym it's not name-calling. It's a play on "Roger Rabbit." PONDER
> THE CARRION FLOWER, Roger, the five-pointed star flower of the
> Asclepiadaceć ... and ponder deeply what happens to the maggots.
An obscure excuse, Chris, as well as pompous and didactic. Any reasonable
observer would see it as name-calling.
--
ROGER B.A. KLORESE rog...@QueerNet.ORG
PO Box 14309 San Francisco, CA 94114
"There is only one real blasphemy -- the refusal of joy!" -- Paul Rudnick
Devil Doll
>> I must only presume that the "name-calling ban" is unidirectional.
>Not at all -- where have I called you names?
Whoosh. Many others are blatant in their insults, and so long as they flow from the orthodox to the unorthodox, I don't hear about any ban. But when you even suspect they are going in the other direction, along comes the ban.
>> Anywaym it's not name-calling. It's a play on "Roger Rabbit." PONDER
>> THE CARRION FLOWER, Roger, the five-pointed star flower of the
>> Asclepiadaceć ... and ponder deeply what happens to the maggots.
>
>An obscure excuse, Chris, as well as pompous and didactic. Any reasonable
>observer would see it as name-calling.
An interesting perspective ... that the casual and doctrinaire reader knows better than the writer what the writer meant.
Whoosh again.
Let me spell it out.
The large and beautiful flowers of the Stapeliad family produce a most convincing scent of rotten meat. Flies lay eggs in the flower; the maggots smell food so they don't leave, but there is no food so they die of starvation. Their blind tropism fertilizes the flower, that being the whole point.
And in that fetid collection of sexual tropisms that is the urban gay culture, there is a scent of love and life in the air, most convincing; but there is none to be found. So the maggots er uh the subculture queers prance and mince around, circling and hovering, unable to escape because they think the scent is real. But it isn't. Their eventual fate is much the same as the maggots'.
What a glorious freedom there is in escaping that life for a real one, where the possibility of love and life is real ... not just a phony and superficial allure.
Enjoy your tinfoil-gilded cage. I've escaped, and so are more and more of us escaping.
Yes, Roger.
==
Devil Doll
devi...@GodIsDead.com
devi...@SuperVillains.org
http://home.earthlink.net/~chrisfox/
"All I like to think of now is the cool spring rains washing the fever from the bones of the dead, that they might find their hollows in the earth"
-- Bela Bartók, speaking of the Holocaust victims
_____________________________________________________________
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Made possible by Fade to Black Comedy Magazine
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Roger B.A. Klorese
> Whoosh. Many others are blatant in their insults, and so long as they
> flow from the orthodox to the unorthodox, I don't hear about any
> ban. But when you even suspect they are going in the other direction,
> along comes the ban.
I've warned at least a dozen people on the subject of calling you names,
Chris. And theirs were formal "this is a warning" warnings, and in at
least one case, 30-day suspensions. Yours was only mentioned in public
because it was in the course of replying to you, and it wasn't worded as a
warning, only a reminder.
> An interesting perspective ... that the casual and doctrinaire reader
> knows better than the writer what the writer meant.
>
> Whoosh again.
What is that -- the sound of hot air escaping? Oh, you're claiming it
went over my head. Well, I'd bet it went over the heads of at least 95%
of the people here. Oh, yeah, I forgot, i'm a moron.
> The large and beautiful flowers of the Stapeliad family produce a most
> convincing scent of rotten meat. Flies lay eggs in the flower; the
> maggots smell food so they don't leave, but there is no food so they die
> of starvation. Their blind tropism fertilizes the flower, that being
> the whole point.
Perhaps you could express it next time with a metaphor that most humans of
moderate intelligence and literacy understand, rather than as a private
jest for botany nerds. I still don't know a Stapeliad from a hole in the
ground.
> And in that fetid collection of sexual tropisms that is the urban gay
> culture, there is a scent of love and life in the air, most
> convincing; but there is none to be found.
So. You. Say.
But, of course, you know our lives so much better than we do.
> So the maggots er uh the subculture queers prance and mince around,
> circling and hovering, unable to escape because they think the scent is
> real. But it isn't. Their eventual fate is much the same as the
> maggots'.
Yeah, yeah, whatever. Broken record time.
> What a glorious freedom there is in escaping that life for a real one,
> where the possibility of love and life is real ... not just a phony and
> superficial allure.
I've known life and love you couldn't even begin to dream of, lecture-boy.
> Enjoy your tinfoil-gilded cage. I've escaped, and so are more and more
> of us escaping.
Ahhhh, but many of us have everything you claim to, without
self-aggrandizing bullshit "sacrifice."
--
ROGER B.A. KLORESE rog...@QueerNet.ORG
PO Box 14309 San Francisco, CA 94114
"There is only one real blasphemy -- the refusal of joy!" -- Paul Rudnick
Naomi Himmelhoch
>I think NOT.
Well, we already had figured THAT out.
>"Marc Stauffer" <stau...@washpost.com> wrote:
>
> >...SF is still in many ways the mandatory pilgrimage >>for all Gays.
>
>Ugh!
>
>*How* wrong you are!
>
>Do you have any idea how few gays relate at any kind of >personal level to
>the SF idea of what being gay is about?
Do you have any idea of what you are talking about? You are of an age, and
live in an area (despite the current referendum up for vote, AGAIN), where
being gay is widely accepted, and if not, tolerated, because you are in a
position to *make* others tolerate it. You keep on insisting on that point
yourself.
I work with glbt teenagers in Pittsburgh, a city strangely behind in the
civil rights movements, given it's size and history. These kids, who are
*not* in a position to make anyone do anything, look at San Francisco very
much as their personal Jerusalem.
I lived in San Francisco during law school, in the early nineties. The kids
ask me stories about it as if I were a priestess who had visited the
"source." What is the city like, can gay people really hold hands, is there
really a place just for glbt teenagers (LYRIC, I don't know if it still
exists in the form it once did), did I really live across the street from
the YMCA of Village People fame, did I really attend friends' domestic
partnership ceremonies at City Hall, did I really see THE pride parade, is
it true I saw people dying of AIDS on the street (they aren't total idiots,
they are aware of the rise in HIV infected teenagers in Pittsburgh, because
I make sure that they are)?
>My lover moved from there to be with me, still has >friends there, goes
>there every few months.
This is supposed to prove it is *not* a gay Mecca?
>His friends are all gorgeous, active, and lonely as >hell. Some of them
>think their chances for love have >passed because they're approaching 30.
This is *such* an entirely human thing to feel, it has *nothing* to do with
where anyone lives, or being gay, for that matter. Remember in the mid-80s,
when it was supposed to be easier for a woman to get killed in a terrorist
attack than to get married after 30? Well, only the sentiment, not the
statistic, was valid. I have three younger sisters, each of whom expressed
the same feeling to me, as she approached 30. I was living in Pittsburgh
when I turned 30. One lived in Austin, one in NYC, and one in Laguna Beach.
It is called the "Omigod, I'm almost 30, and I still haven't paired-off"
panic.
>The SF "queer" life is what we're ESCAPING from!
As long as that "we're" is limited to you, your partner, and the friends of
yours who have expressed that feeling, you are right. But have you noticed,
on this list, you seem to be in the extreme minority (one might even say
alone) in feeling that.
>It has nothing to offer anyone who's deeper than a rain >puddle.
San Francisco has nothing to offer? How about the politics, the opera, the
public transportation, the history, the weather, the ballet, the art, the
theaters and museums, the food, the wildly diverse population. Have you
ever left the Castro? For someone who constantly berates it, I haven't
heard you admit to visiting any other neighborhood in the entire city.
I lived in San Francisco, but not in the Castro, because I wouldn't want to
live right in such a commercial district, and I couldn't have afforded any
of the surrounding areas, like Noe Valley. I lived in the Tenderloin, which
is not much more than a part of town for people on their way up
(immigrants), or their way down (junkies), and law students (headed in both
directions). I had a wonderful time living there, but then again, I wasn't
there with an agenda to love or condemn any particular area or population.
I hope that all of my "yutes" who want to get a chance to live there.
Really, you are incredibly self-centered, it is amazing. Your San Francisco
is the only San Francisco. No one could possibly experience it any
differently, or else s/he is the worst kind of libertine. As the kids would
say, WHATEVER!
Naomi Himmelhoch
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Zeke Krahlin
>Do you have any idea how few gays relate at any kind of personal
>level to the SF idea of what being gay is about?
In this matter, I also have to agree with you, DD. San Francisco has
become a pathetic ghost of its former liberated self. The wonderful,
wholesome, radical comradeship that was a large part of our community in
the early years of the post-Free Speech era, has long ago shrivelled off
the vine. The advent of AIDS only exacerbated this condition, turning "gay
mecca" into a place where queers come to die, not to fight.
I have remained in virtual social isolation from our "community" for over
10 years now...and not because I haven't tried: I'm a very gregarious
individual. I presently have great company among street people in
Berkeley, some of whom are gay.
By the same token, S.F. has become one of the most violently anti-gay
cities in the country, since the passage of DOMA. I also remember, during
the worst period of AIDS, all the tourist buses (with Darth-Vader-like
black-tinted windows so you couldn't see anyone inside) barelling down
Castro Street, with the passenger goggling at all the dying men ambling
along in their walkers and wheelchairs. Cameras from the bus windows were
snapping away like crazy. Finally, the city passed a law to forbid tour
buses from careening down Castro Street...though they often did, in
flagrant violation.
Where DD and I part ways, is in regard to whether or not "Gay Mecca" is
worth resurrecting. DD apparantly does not believe it is. But I do. I
really have a blind faith that all of this is not for nothing, that the
seeds planted so long ago will finally sprout. That the promise of glory
radiating our streets through the 1970's, will soon shine once
again...only this time in everlasting fulfillment.
But I presently remain disgusted with our community, and have felt this
way since around 1983. So I understand DD's viewpoints in this regard...up
to a point.
=====
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Mike Silverman
devi...@godisdead.com wrote:
> I think NOT.
>
>
> "Marc Stauffer" <stau...@washpost.com> wrote:
>
> >...SF is still in many ways the mandatory pilgrimage for all Gays.
>
> Ugh!
>
> *How* wrong you are!
>
> Do you have any idea how few gays relate at any kind of personal level to
> the SF idea of what being gay is about?
>
> My lover moved from there to be with me, still has friends there, goes
> there every few months. His friends are all gorgeous, active, and lonely
> as hell. Some of them think their chances for love have passed because
> they're approaching 30.
>
> The SF "queer" life is what we're ESCAPING from!
>
> It has nothing to offer anyone who's deeper than a rain puddle.
Let's see...
A world-class symphony
Over a dozen excellent top of the line museums
A great park system
Some of the nation's finest archetecture
An international reputation for fine cusine
Numerous nationalities and ethnic groups living in (mostly) harmony
An international reputation for tolerance and progressivism
A gay community which has pushed through the most advanced civil rights
legislation in America
A great economy based on environmentally-friendly technology
And as many ways to be gay as there are gay people.
Devil Doll
>> The SF "queer" life is what we're ESCAPING from!
>>
>> It has nothing to offer anyone who's deeper than a rain puddle.
>
>Let's see...
>
>A world-class symphony
>Over a dozen excellent top of the line museums
>A great park system
>Some of the nation's finest archetecture
>An international reputation for fine cusine
>Numerous nationalities and ethnic groups living in (mostly) harmony
...all of which refers to the city, not the gay ghetto culture that reaches its national peak there.
Were it not for the Castro culture, SF would be my first choice if I wanted to move somewhere else in the USA. As it is, I would not move there; I might live in San Jose or Oakland within reach of that sterling symphony orchestra and cuisine (and yes, Crustacean and Heavenly Hot Pot are places everyone should eat once in their lives).
But driving around SF at night is like being sent into a chamber of horrors exhibit on LSD. The ubiquity of bearded men in sadomasochist heraldry prowling parking lots and grimacing as their tobacco smoke goes into their eyes ... this is not something I could stand to see too often.
The given reason in this discussion is that SF is a place where gays can be open in their affections and a lot of people are asserting -- again -- that doing so elsewhere will get them attacked. And again, I insist this is in their heads.
Last night Eddy and I went across the Sound to see my father in Bainbridge Island; Eddy's birthday is today and we got dined over there. The ferry ride is a half-hour trip each way. He was tired and laid his head in my lap, admiring his new diamond ring *%$&($*&@#($*@#& .. the ferry was full, as usual, of blue-collar types, young jocks, families. Lots of people walked by and saw the two homos, the one laying his head in the other's lap and having his hair stroked absent-mindedly.
Not a catcall, not a remark, not even a perplexed expression .. and nobody waiting for us with iron pipes at the end of the ride. This is my life. This is nonchalance. I'll be damned if I'd endure the cesspool of hedonism that is the urban gay life in a place like San Francisco just to feel a tiny bit more accepted than I already do!
==
Devil Doll
devi...@GodIsDead.com
devi...@SuperVillains.org
http://home.earthlink.net/~chrisfox/
"All I like to think of now is the cool spring rains washing the fever from the bones of the dead, that they might find their hollows in the earth"
-- Bela Bartók, speaking of the Holocaust victims
_____________________________________________________________
--->Get you free email @godisdead.com
Made possible by Fade to Black Comedy Magazine
**********
Roger B.A. Klorese
> Mike Silverman <cub...@turnleft.com> wrote:
> >Let's see...
> >
> >A world-class symphony
> >Over a dozen excellent top of the line museums
> >A great park system
> >Some of the nation's finest archetecture
> >An international reputation for fine cusine
> >Numerous nationalities and ethnic groups living in (mostly) harmony
>
> ...all of which refers to the city, not the gay ghetto culture that
> reaches its national peak there.
Actually, all of which has very close connections to that ghetto culture
of which you speak, though it takes more than a few brief looks down an
upturned nose to tell.
> Were it not for the Castro culture, SF would be my first choice if I
> wanted to move somewhere else in the USA. As it is, I would not move
> there; I might live in San Jose or Oakland within reach of that sterling
> symphony orchestra and cuisine (and yes, Crustacean and Heavenly Hot Pot
> are places everyone should eat once in their lives).
I've done Crustacean once; I assume you're saying I'm not obligated to go
back. I found it overpriced, overdressed and underinteresting.
> But driving around SF at night is like being sent into a chamber of
> horrors exhibit on LSD. The ubiquity of bearded men in sadomasochist
> heraldry prowling parking lots and grimacing as their tobacco smoke goes
> into their eyes ... this is not something I could stand to see too
> often.
Ubiquity, huh? Wow. Your obsessiveness is staggering, considering you're
probably describing, oh, about .1% of the population. And that assumes
that an ordinary leather jacket counts as "sadomasochist heraldry." (And
I don't know where you get that "prowling parking lots" thing, as there
apre precious few of those anywhere in the city, and the ones that exist,
even in the Castro, are "prowled" mainly by spare-changers.
--
ROGER B.A. KLORESE rog...@QueerNet.ORG
PO Box 14309 San Francisco, CA 94114
"There is only one real blasphemy -- the refusal of joy!" -- Paul Rudnick
Todd Morman
> Your obsessiveness is staggering
So's his self-hatred. The bitterness and scorn, coupled with the
unbelievably broad brush, leave little to the imagination. Devil Doll
apparently has a few acceptance issues to work through.
He hates fags. He is a fag. It's a tired story.
Todd Morman
Queer Media Report
**********
Roger B.A. Klorese
> He hates fags. He is a fag. It's a tired story.
He'd like them if only they weren't such, er, fags...
--
ROGER B.A. KLORESE rog...@QueerNet.ORG
PO Box 14309 San Francisco, CA 94114
"There is only one real blasphemy -- the refusal of joy!" -- Paul Rudnick
George C. Hackett
----- Original Message -----
From: "Todd Morman" <to...@alienskin.com>
To: <gay...@QueerNet.ORG>
Sent: Friday, September 15, 2000 2:25 PM
Subject: RE: [GN] SF as Mecca?!?
> Roger Klorese wrote to Devil Doll:
>
> > Your obsessiveness is staggering
>
> So's his self-hatred. The bitterness and scorn, coupled with the
> unbelievably broad brush, leave little to the imagination. Devil Doll
> apparently has a few acceptance issues to work through.
>
> He hates fags. He is a fag. It's a tired story.
>
> Todd Morman
> Queer Media Report
>
Eric Bohlman
> Would Devil Doll be Chris Fox
Yes.
Roger B.A. Klorese
> Would Devil Doll be Chris Fox
Indeed he is.
--
ROGER B.A. KLORESE rog...@QueerNet.ORG
PO Box 14309 San Francisco, CA 94114
"There is only one real blasphemy -- the refusal of joy!" -- Paul Rudnick
Devil Doll
> > Your obsessiveness is staggering
>So's his self-hatred. The bitterness and scorn, coupled with the
>unbelievably broad brush, leave little to the imagination. Devil Doll
>apparently has a few acceptance issues to work through.
>
>He hates fags. He is a fag. It's a tired story.
A common fallacy!
Again, I repeat: gay people, gay culture, gay sex and gay politics are distinguishable things.
I despise gay *culture*. Totally. If I were religious I would pray daily -- no, hourly -- that gay culture would vanish utterly from this earth.
I do not hate gay people. I despise shallow, coarse, stupid, vulgar, and hedonistic people of all orientations. Straight ones too.
I do not hate gay sex, either.
Gay *people* are not gay *culture*, and most gay people don't like gay culture.
Consider, Todd, that you feel some need to embrace the whole package, that you cannot be gay without being a "fag." Your elective self-marginalization is a human tragedy.
I don't share it.
I'm gay. I'm not involved in that hideous culture of snobbery and pretension, and I am the healthier for it.
As for hating myself ...!
In your dreams. I have a real sense of personal authenticity, I don't need to borrow one through group identification. Pity you do. Get over it. Come out of that closet and be whole.
==
Devil Doll
devi...@GodIsDead.com
devi...@SuperVillains.org
http://home.earthlink.net/~chrisfox/
"All I like to think of now is the cool spring rains washing the fever from the bones of the dead, that they might find their hollows in the earth"
-- Bela Bartók, speaking of the Holocaust victims
_____________________________________________________________
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Marc Stauffer
Washington, DC and most of the surrounding counties have a similar wealth
of culture, arts, plus outdoor recreation spots plus enumerable g/l/b/t
organizations.
Communities evolve as does time. It's a shame for any individual to get
locked into one time frame much alone hold onto an opinion long after it
has been refuted. We argue about current views and positions. Who will put
forth an agenda for us to debate the future?
EROS
Eight, the pool house full of young hard bodies,
Olive, gold, ebony, white and tan.
Friendly warmth smiling in the steam of showers.
Flowing movement of lines.
A stirring I don't know.
Eighteen, He come to hear me debate.
The running back and the nerd - are we friends or more?
I win. He slaps my butt.
Good job. I'm afraid.
Imagery for the night.
Twenty eight. Rings of vapor in the chill air.
A cabin, a hunting trip.
The Hunter's Moon casts silvery shadows; near naked trees.
The primitive instinct to hunt, to compete.
Hard bodies entwined - gentle violence.
Passion shared and understood.
Thirty eight. Time shared.
A home furnished with love and laughter;
Support and opposition; arguments and discussions.
Eros like treads of a staircase.
Raising consciousness, seeking to build and
Release and build again.
Eros and passion, opposites in a hidden mystery.
Forty six - Furs, Pearls, Curls.
Is it me?
A man-boy in drag.
Dresses, jewelry, makeup, cologne.
They say it is. I think not.
Forty six - Fem, Fag, Fey, Gay.
Is it me?
A man-boy in drag.
Suit and tie, levis and leather;
Boots, bikes and kayaks.
Maybe?
Abnormal, unnatural, queer, odd
Possessed, perverse.
They say its me.
They don't know.
They don't know the paralyzing fear
Of one's own tenderness.
They don't know,
Eros is not God
But power binding all things,
All men together.
They don't know.
Eros is the center.
Heart and soul of cultural vitality.
Tension released
The downfall of civilization assured.
They don't know.
BODY AND MIND
The body mature,
What is the linkage?
We dare not stare
'tis not seemly to look.
The symmetry, the strength
Are these not qualities to admire?
Guilt of sins from the garden;
To look, to see, to understand.
Self-consciousness, consciousness
Are we as adequate as others?
Is our value wrapped
In part of our body?
Never to admit
All males as we compete.
we measure the right to mate
by power, strength, and length.
Eyes averted, aggression diminished,
Society's thin veneer maintained.
Women and Gays understand.
M. G. Stauffer