_gossamer axe_ vs. _war for the oaks_
lisa cohen
first off, i should explain that i've been holding off on posting my
reactions to _gossamer axe_ (by gael baudino, discussed here many many
months ago--GA from now on) because i kept meaning to read _war for the
oaks_ (by emma bull--WFTO from now on) since i'd heard them mentioned
together so often, but i got sidetracked--lured in other directions by
other books. however, last week i followed a link about something else
to tane's site, and after reading that link, clicked her GA link and
read her comparison and decided that since i was about to get on an
airplane, the time had come to pull out a copy of WFTO and read it.
having now finished it, i feel like talking about it. problem 1 is
going to be that i read GA months and months ago--like, last march, so
it's not very fresh. still i remember enough to talk a little about
it. problem 2 is that some of this may sound like i'm arguing with
someone and no one has put forth any arguments (yet)--but i think i'm
reacting to a little of what i read about the 2 books during my clicking
around last week.
well it's easy to see why people draw comparisons (here's where the
SPOILERS start, y'all). they are both books where a woman forms a band
(rock in one case, heavy metal in the other) in part to war with some
portion of the faerie population for, in one case control of minneapolis
and the other, the return of her lover. i would say that there are
things to like and to dislike about both books. i personally preferred
WFTO which i'll talk about in a second, but i do want to mention a
couple of areas where other people will find more of an affinity with GA
than i can:
1) heavy metal. i don't listen to it, so the descriptions and
discussion of it in GA have a lot less resonance for me than i'm sure
they have to someone who's a fan or at least has a passing familiarity
with it.
2) being a pagan. christa (the main character in GA) is at least a
worshipper and hazy recollection says possibly a priestess of some
sort? at any rate, for anyone for whom that resonates, there would be
an added dimension to the book that was not present for me. (in fact
for me, this aspect became so large a part of the book that i felt a
similar discomfort to the one that i feel in books where belief in
christianity enables the characters to solve all of the problems that
are set before them. i realize that mileage varies for many, many
people. (btw, i would feel the same way about judaism, which is the
religion in which i was raised, being handled that way, although i
cannot recall reading a book where that was the case.) back to GA--at
points i felt like proselytizing was going on--i think a band member
looked at the other members and said that in time they, too, would join
them, and i think that eventually they all do. that bangs into my own
personal "must belong to X religion to fit in" alarm bells.)
one book takes place in denver, one in minneapolis. i've visited the
latter once, the former never--i can't speak to what being a denizen or
frequent visitor to either city might make one feel--i had no problems
with the descriptions of either city but i may have missed clunkers
right and left.
so why do i like WFTO better? well right out of the gate, i felt that
emma bull is the better writer. i've read exactly one book by each of
them and i have no idea where these books are in each author's
bibliography--whether these are first books or written after many books
have been published--i know that each has written other books but i
don't know where these fall. i just like the way that emma bull handles
words better. baudino reminds me more of MZB--more a teller of a good
yarn than someone whose writing i like.
i could relate to eddi (WFTO) better than i could to christa (GA). if
christa isn't immortal, then she's found some way to stay perpetually
young through generation after generation--she lost her lover, judith,
in the time of pre-christianity, iirc, and has stayed alive through the
ages, periodically making an attempt to get her back. she is presented
as incredibly wise and able to solve the problems of those whose lives
she touches. she solves with the magic of her music plus worship of the
goddess what other people slog through decades of therapy to get over.
in other words, she isn't the sort of person where i read about her and
thought "oh yes, i know people like that." i don't know people who are
chosen by the seelie court to help fight the unseelie court the way that
eddi is, either, but eddi is much more of an "ordinary person swept into
an extraordinary situation." christa starts out extraordinary and
recollection says that the primary change to her occurs early when she
finds heavy metal music as a potential new way to try to fight for
judith. other than that, she doesn't so much change as change those
around her.
surely i must have liked something better about GA than WFTO? you bet!
i like that christa is bi and that she recruits a band made up of
women. WFTO doesn't have a single glbto character--couldn't carla
(secondary character--drummer in eddi's band) have been bi or a lesbian
and have fallen for a female keyboard player instead of the male
keyboard player we get? at least the band doesn't turn out to be all
white. tane' mentioned that she disliked eddi's romantic relationships
on her web page and so i was reading for that. let's say that i found
eddi to be realistic if not as assertive as i might wish and thought
that she got stronger in her relationships by the end. but having every
relationship in the book be heterosexual without even a nod to other
possibilities was the thing i liked least about WFTO.
i liked both books' descriptions of the various seelie/unseelie lands
and people--very different, but both interesting and well-conceived.
both are "good reads"--easy to get into and a story that pulls you
through.
and then one gets into more detail which is harder because one book is
so much further off. but i think this is enough to start a discussion
if anyone else is interested.
lisa
--
Soc.women.lesbian-and-bi is a moderated newsgroup. The moderation policy
and FAQ are available at <http://welcome.to/swlab/>. Questions and
concerns should be emailed to the moderators at <swlab-...@panix.com>.
Carol A Nickolai
: there will be SPOILERS in this post.
Hi Lisa!
I read _War for the Oaks_ a couple of months ago, and while I've read a
couple other books by Gael Baudino I haven't read _Gossamer Axe_. Based
on what you've said, I doubt I will read _Gossamer Axe_.
I didn't particularly care for WFTO. I was, like you, consistently
annoyed by the straightness of all the characters. I kept hoping one of
the women would look around and notice that the men were all fools and go
find a woman. I also don't much like the kind of crossing the "real"
world with "fantasy" that the novel does. Finally, not being into rock
music, that aspect didn't do much for me either. I thought it was
well-written, the use of language is quite nice, it just wasn't my kind
of book in the end.
Why did I read it at all? It was one of a box of books my sister sent me
some time ago. She said it was good, and obviously felt it was good
enough to pass on to me. I'm in no hurry to read anything else like it
though.
Carol
Ayana Craven
Carol A Nickolai <nick...@mail2.sas.upenn.edu> wrote:
>lisa cohen (lco...@midway.uchicago.edu) wrote:
>: there will be SPOILERS in this post.
>
>Hi Lisa!
>
>I read _War for the Oaks_ a couple of months ago, and while I've read a
>couple other books by Gael Baudino I haven't read _Gossamer Axe_. Based
>on what you've said, I doubt I will read _Gossamer Axe_.
>
>I didn't particularly care for WFTO.
>Why did I read it at all? It was one of a box of books my sister sent me
>some time ago. She said it was good, and obviously felt it was good
>enough to pass on to me. I'm in no hurry to read anything else like it
>though.
I hope it doesn't put you off Emma Bull. That one, to me, is unlike
her others, which I enjoyed much more than I did WFTO.
Ayana, not-mod, proselytizing for other books ("Bone Dance" and
"Finder" are both great, "Falcon" is also quite good)
--
I think that we have to consider the possibility that he's a
Promise Keeper.
-- Lisa, discussing soc.bi
Tane' Tachyon
>
> 2) being a pagan. christa (the main character in GA) is at least a
> worshipper and hazy recollection says possibly a priestess of some
> sort? at any rate, for anyone for whom that resonates, there would be
> an added dimension to the book that was not present for me. (in fact
> for me, this aspect became so large a part of the book that i felt a
> similar discomfort to the one that i feel in books where belief in
> christianity enables the characters to solve all of the problems that
> are set before them. i realize that mileage varies for many, many
> people. (btw, i would feel the same way about judaism, which is the
> religion in which i was raised, being handled that way, although i
> cannot recall reading a book where that was the case.) back to GA--at
> points i felt like proselytizing was going on--i think a band member
> looked at the other members and said that in time they, too, would join
> them, and i think that eventually they all do. that bangs into my own
> personal "must belong to X religion to fit in" alarm bells.)
I don't remember that part, but I would say that in Gossamer Axe for
the purposes of the story Christa's pagan beliefs and the existence
of the faerie realm are both true and somewhat related, whereas as
far as I remember in War for the Oaks the existence of the faerie
realm doesn't have any particular religious significance for humans.
I also think that despite the heavy author-wish-fulfillment nature
of Christa's paganism it's not presented as the only true path -- a
character can go to the Summerland after death if she chooses to be
that flavor of pagan, but I get the idea that people who follow
other religions will be going other places as well.
> so why do i like WFTO better? well right out of the gate, i felt that
> emma bull is the better writer.
Yeah, I would agree with that, though I haven't yet read any other
books by either author yet for any further comparison. For one
thing, as much as I like Gossamer Axe, I haven't heard very good
things about any of Gael Baudino's other books.
> i could relate to eddi (WFTO) better than i could to christa (GA). if
> christa isn't immortal, then she's found some way to stay perpetually
> young through generation after generation--she lost her lover, judith,
> in the time of pre-christianity, iirc, and has stayed alive through the
> ages, periodically making an attempt to get her back.
Basically, she spent a good portion of that time as a faerie
prisoner, and after she escaped with their best harp is able to use
it to periodically de-age herself.
> she is presented
> as incredibly wise and able to solve the problems of those whose lives
> she touches. she solves with the magic of her music plus worship of the
> goddess what other people slog through decades of therapy to get over.
> in other words, she isn't the sort of person where i read about her and
> thought "oh yes, i know people like that." i don't know people who are
> chosen by the seelie court to help fight the unseelie court the way that
> eddi is, either, but eddi is much more of an "ordinary person swept into
> an extraordinary situation." christa starts out extraordinary and
> recollection says that the primary change to her occurs early when she
> finds heavy metal music as a potential new way to try to fight for
> judith. other than that, she doesn't so much change as change those
> around her.
I would say that Christa also started (long, long ago) as a more or
less ordinary person swept into an extraordinary situation, had to
become extraordinary to deal with it, and is having to change to
become more engaged with the world and deal with what comes of that.
> surely i must have liked something better about GA than WFTO? you bet!
> i like that christa is bi and that she recruits a band made up of
> women. WFTO doesn't have a single glbto character--couldn't carla
> (secondary character--drummer in eddi's band) have been bi or a lesbian
> and have fallen for a female keyboard player instead of the male
> keyboard player we get? at least the band doesn't turn out to be all
> white.
I liked the fact that there were matter-of-fact interracial
relationships, but yeah, the only GLBTO *anything* I remember offhand
is Carla saying that a friend who got them a gig is gay -- I think
this was supposed to provide proof that the friend got them a gig
because of the quality of their music rather than because he was
trying to get into Carla's pants, but as I had the book out from the
library last Spring I can't look it up right now.
> tane' mentioned that she disliked eddi's romantic relationships
> on her web page and so i was reading for that. let's say that i found
> eddi to be realistic if not as assertive as i might wish and thought
> that she got stronger in her relationships by the end.
She got stronger in every aspect of her life, but yeah, the way her
lovers treated her just drove me up the wall.
Coincidentally, I ordered one of the Flash Girls' (Emma Bull's band)
CDs a few weeks ago, but it hasn't shown up yet.
--
Tane' Tachyon = tac...@tachyonlabs.com = http://www.tachyonlabs.com/
Carol A Nickolai
: I hope it doesn't put you off Emma Bull. That one, to me, is unlike
: her others, which I enjoyed much more than I did WFTO.
: Ayana, not-mod, proselytizing for other books ("Bone Dance" and
: "Finder" are both great, "Falcon" is also quite good)
Thanks for the tip, I'll keep an eye out for them. Though, honestly, I
only buy books at used books stores these days, or read what my sister sends.
Carol
Ayana Craven
Tane' Tachyon <tac...@tachyonlabs.com> wrote:
[]
>Coincidentally, I ordered one of the Flash Girls' (Emma Bull's band)
>CDs a few weeks ago, but it hasn't shown up yet.
Oooh, when it shows up, please let us know what you think ? I
considered it, but this is looking to be a rather expensive month
(carpenter ants, anyone ?)
Ayana, not-mod
--
I think that we have to consider the possibility that he's a
Promise Keeper.
-- Lisa, discussing soc.bi
--
Tane' Tachyon
>
> In article <1.$p*w}27...@panix.com>,
> Tane' Tachyon <tac...@tachyonlabs.com> wrote:
> []
> >Coincidentally, I ordered one of the Flash Girls' (Emma Bull's band)
> >CDs a few weeks ago, but it hasn't shown up yet.
>
> Oooh, when it shows up, please let us know what you think ?
Sure -- the one I ordered is "Play Each Morning Wild Queen".
Something else interesting I was reading about when checking links --
Emma Bull and friends made an 11-minute long War For The Oaks "movie
trailer", but instead of playing her heroine Eddi, she played the
Queen of the Seelie Court.
http://www.greenmanreview.com/wfto_trailer.html
> I
> considered it, but this is looking to be a rather expensive month
> (carpenter ants, anyone ?)
I used to see those outside in Wisconsin sometimes and thought they
were really cool -- giant ants! -- but if they infested your house
the way little black ants did my previous house I imagine any charm
would wear off pretty quickly.
--
Tane' Tachyon = tac...@tachyonlabs.com = http://www.tachyonlabs.com/
--
lisa cohen
>
> lisa cohen wrote:
> >
> I also think that despite the heavy author-wish-fulfillment nature
> of Christa's paganism it's not presented as the only true path -- a
> character can go to the Summerland after death if she chooses to be
> that flavor of pagan, but I get the idea that people who follow
> other religions will be going other places as well.
that's not exactly comfortable either if one is not a follower of any
religion, but it's certainly possible that i missed that flavor of other
paths being okay.
>
> > so why do i like WFTO better? well right out of the gate, i felt that
> > emma bull is the better writer.
>
> Yeah, I would agree with that, though I haven't yet read any other
> books by either author yet for any further comparison. For one
> thing, as much as I like Gossamer Axe, I haven't heard very good
> things about any of Gael Baudino's other books.
no, i haven't either. i'd be much more likely to try another book by
bull than another book by baudino based on having read only those two
books.
<christa>
> > she is presented
> > as incredibly wise and able to solve the problems of those whose lives
> > she touches. she solves with the magic of her music plus worship of the
> > goddess what other people slog through decades of therapy to get over.
> > in other words, she isn't the sort of person where i read about her and
> > thought "oh yes, i know people like that." i don't know people who are
> > chosen by the seelie court to help fight the unseelie court the way that
> > eddi is, either, but eddi is much more of an "ordinary person swept into
> > an extraordinary situation." christa starts out extraordinary and
> > recollection says that the primary change to her occurs early when she
> > finds heavy metal music as a potential new way to try to fight for
> > judith. other than that, she doesn't so much change as change those
> > around her.
>
> I would say that Christa also started (long, long ago) as a more or
> less ordinary person swept into an extraordinary situation, had to
> become extraordinary to deal with it, and is having to change to
> become more engaged with the world and deal with what comes of that.
more SPOILERS!!
okay, that's fair. but the way that she becomes engaged felt much more
like she took on the role of teacher and healer than someone who is
growing in that way--when she takes lessons, she surpasses her teacher
very quickly, doesn't she? she's only potentially weak compared to her
faerie foes--she is stronger than all the human characters--able to even
kill with her music where she deems it just, iirc.
>
> > surely i must have liked something better about GA than WFTO? you bet!
> > i like that christa is bi and that she recruits a band made up of
> > women. WFTO doesn't have a single glbto character--couldn't carla
> > (secondary character--drummer in eddi's band) have been bi or a lesbian
> > and have fallen for a female keyboard player instead of the male
> > keyboard player we get? at least the band doesn't turn out to be all
> > white.
>
> I liked the fact that there were matter-of-fact interracial
> relationships, but yeah, the only GLBTO *anything* I remember offhand
> is Carla saying that a friend who got them a gig is gay -- I think
> this was supposed to provide proof that the friend got them a gig
> because of the quality of their music rather than because he was
> trying to get into Carla's pants, but as I had the book out from the
> library last Spring I can't look it up right now.
yes, that sounds right *very* annoying. is that better in other bull
books, anyone who's read them?
lisa
lisa cohen
>
> (carpenter ants, anyone ?)
no, thanks, i already have plenty.
lisa
Ayana Craven
Tane' Tachyon <tac...@tachyonlabs.com> wrote:
>Ayana Craven wrote:
>>
>> I
>> considered it, but this is looking to be a rather expensive month
>> (carpenter ants, anyone ?)
>
>I used to see those outside in Wisconsin sometimes and thought they
>were really cool -- giant ants! -- but if they infested your house
>the way little black ants did my previous house I imagine any charm
>would wear off pretty quickly.
The problem is that they chew up *your* house to provide material
for *their* house -- and apparently they can chew through most
anything, including the structural bits that hold up the walls.
Ayana, not-mod, tomorrow we're going to tear out the wall and see
just how bad it is
--
I think that we have to consider the possibility that he's a
Promise Keeper.
-- Lisa, discussing soc.bi
--
lisa cohen
>
> lisa cohen (lco...@midway.uchicago.edu) wrote:
> : there will be SPOILERS in this post.
>
> Hi Lisa!
>
> I read _War for the Oaks_ a couple of months ago, and while I've read a
> couple other books by Gael Baudino I haven't read _Gossamer Axe_. Based
> on what you've said, I doubt I will read _Gossamer Axe_.
what did you think of the other books by baudino, now that i've already
said that i'm less inclined to read another one by her than another one
by bull?
<>
> I also don't much like the kind of crossing the "real"
> world with "fantasy" that the novel does.
i was thinking about this last night because i think when i was little,
this was one of my absolute favorite types of fantasy and some of that
has carried over into adulthood. i loved books where ordinary kids were
walking down the street and found a coin or a phoenix or a book that
granted wishes. or slightly different because they take place in
another world but similar in that ordinary kids are placed in
extraordinary situations, where they opened a wardrobe door or fell down
a rabbit hole. i'm trying to think of better examples than GA or WFTO
for non-kids books and of course all that is occuring to me are some
books by barbara hambly that i actually like less well than a bunch of
her other books. but anyway, i'm inclined to like a book that begins in
that way--but then it has to follow through.
hmmm, maybe it doesn't work as well in non-kids books, i just still like
all the kids books that i used to like? i can't come up with any
examples of good ones right now.
lisa, thinking "not those mercedes lackey ones, not those mzb bradley
ones that she did with holly lisle..."
Peggy Fieland
>
>The problem is that they chew up *your* house to provide material
>for *their* house -- and apparently they can chew through most
>anything, including the structural bits that hold up the walls.
When we sold our first house (an early 1900's colonial revival) we
discovered carpenter ants living under the porch. They were eating
their way towards the main beam supporting the house <wry grin>.
Our first set of buyers were freaked by this, but fortunately for us
the second set were used to old houses.
Peggy
Miriam Arachne
<major snip>
OK, my personal bias: I've read both these books ages ago. Also, I
know emma bull from my Minneapolis days....but I don't think that that
affects how I view the merits of the two in terms of their ability to
wordcraft.
>one book takes place in denver, one in minneapolis. i've visited the
>latter once, the former never--i can't speak to what being a denizen or
>frequent visitor to either city might make one feel--i had no problems
>with the descriptions of either city but i may have missed clunkers
>right and left.
The description of the twin cities is spot on -- the best scenes being
the battle of the bands at the First Avenue (converted greyhound
station, painted black, now rock club) and the battle at the
conservatory in St. Paul. When people say they are going to be going
to Minneapolis, i suggest they read the book.
I don't know about denver. Must confess part of the reason I read GA
is because reading the blurb on Gael I realized there were lots of
points of commonality - including being a morris dancer.
>so why do i like WFTO better? well right out of the gate, i felt that
>emma bull is the better writer.
absolutely.
I think i'd also say she's much better at characterization.
> i've read exactly one book by each of
>them and i have no idea where these books are in each author's
>bibliography--whether these are first books or written after many books
>have been published--i know that each has written other books but i
>don't know where these fall.
I think WFTO is her second book, after Falcon.....and I wish she'd
write something more, damnit!
And as Ayana says, read _Bone Dance_
>i could relate to eddi (WFTO) better than i could to christa (GA).
For what it's worth, I think that eddi is also more modeled on the
author -- a fact that could add to her being much more of a "regular
person."
>surely i must have liked something better about GA than WFTO? you bet!
>i like that christa is bi and that she recruits a band made up of
>women. WFTO doesn't have a single glbto character--couldn't carla
>(secondary character--drummer in eddi's band) have been bi or a lesbian
>and have fallen for a female keyboard player instead of the male
>keyboard player we get? at least the band doesn't turn out to be all
>white. tane' mentioned that she disliked eddi's romantic relationships
>on her web page and so i was reading for that. let's say that i found
>eddi to be realistic if not as assertive as i might wish and thought
>that she got stronger in her relationships by the end. but having every
>relationship in the book be heterosexual without even a nod to other
>possibilities was the thing i liked least about WFTO.
this is a good point, and one i never even thought about.
>i liked both books' descriptions of the various seelie/unseelie lands
>and people--very different, but both interesting and well-conceived.
>both are "good reads"--easy to get into and a story that pulls you
>through.
If you like the idea of people reconstructing the idea of faerie, and
also where music comes into play with all of this, look for the
_Borderlands_ books -- anthologies based on a shared world.
>and then one gets into more detail which is harder because one book is
>so much further off. but i think this is enough to start a discussion
>if anyone else is interested.
thanks for starting this up.
Unrelated, but that it's a good series, check out what Kage Baker has
written.
miriam arachne
Magic is the deliberate manipulation of coincidence
Miriam Arachne
>Tane' Tachyon wrote:
>[]
>>Coincidentally, I ordered one of the Flash Girls' (Emma Bull's band)
>>CDs a few weeks ago, but it hasn't shown up yet.
>
>Oooh, when it shows up, please let us know what you think ?
trying to think if i've heard any of their recordings -- heard them
lots of times live at the MN Ren Fest -- i'm afraid they suffer from
the usual problem of people making recordings on their own --- the
recorded version doesn't do them justice. Then again, if you've never
heard them live, it won't matter. They do have a very sly sense of
humor in their music, which is fun.
I
>considered it, but this is looking to be a rather expensive month
>(carpenter ants, anyone ?)
ouch. OK, I'll stop complaining about my hot water heater now.
miriam arachne
Magic is the deliberate manipulation of coincidence
--
Miriam Arachne
>
>Something else interesting I was reading about when checking links --
>Emma Bull and friends made an 11-minute long War For The Oaks "movie
>trailer", but instead of playing her heroine Eddi, she played the
>Queen of the Seelie Court.
Yeah, i remember when they were doing that...
I know they thought they'd sold the script to hollywood at one point,
then decided to try and do it as a no budget movie on their own....and
then it all just sank from veiw.
Uh, i think part of the problem was the involvement of her husband,
Will...
miriam arachne
Magic is the deliberate manipulation of coincidence
--
Miriam Arachne
>Carol A Nickolai wrote:
>>
>
>> I also don't much like the kind of crossing the "real"
>> world with "fantasy" that the novel does.
>
>i was thinking about this last night because i think when i was little,
>this was one of my absolute favorite types of fantasy and some of that
>has carried over into adulthood. [...] i'm trying to think of better examples than GA or WFTO
>for non-kids books and of course all that is occuring to me are some
>books by barbara hambly that i actually like less well than a bunch of
>her other books. but anyway, i'm inclined to like a book that begins in
>that way--but then it has to follow through.
>
>hmmm, maybe it doesn't work as well in non-kids books, i just still like
>all the kids books that i used to like? i can't come up with any
>examples of good ones right now.
Lisa Goldstein _Dark Cities Underground_
the blurb from her home page: http://www.brazenhussies.net/goldstein/
"Lisa Goldstein's new novel is about children's books and subway
systems gravediggers and Egyptian gods. "
also _Walking the Labarynth_ has some of that quality.
Ellen Galford's _The Dyke and the Dybbuk_ has the magical being in
ordinary life kind of theme. Her _The Fires of Bride_ also has some of
that although i'd call it more a northern version of magical realism.
Her first book, _Queendom Come_ which is almost impossible to find is
hysterically funny in terms of it's skewering of britan under
thatcher.
Here's some blurbs on these books from
http://www.feministsf.org/femsf/authorsg.html#galford
(a cool site, BTW -- Feminist Science Fiction, Fantasy, & Utopia)
The Fires of Bride is a Scottish feminist not-quite gothic novel, with
a mysterious heroine in a big Scottish castle, a local artist, an
assortment of evil religious conservatives, and a herstory of wimmin's
religions that keeps popping up. Fun, but not as polished as The Dyke
and the Dybbuk, Galford's fourth published novel. -- l
Queendom Come: Scottish lesbian comedy. Galford is like a feminist
lesbian Thorne Smith with politics. In Queendom Come, an ancient
"Proto-Pictish" queen is brought back to save her people. British
politics are skewered (in this tale, they have continued drifting
rightward a few years' worth of bad legislation) and good clean
lesbian fun is had by all.
The Dyke and the Dybbuk - charming British lesbian comedy. A London
dyke cab-driver is possessed by a dyke dybbuk who induces her to fall
for a wildly inappropriate love object - an orthodox scion of the
demon-fighters.
Charles de Lint does it all the time, but he also has basically
written one book over and over again.
In the Kid Lit genre, I really like the Susan Cooper books that seem
to have been lost in the shuffle.
>lisa, thinking "not those mercedes lackey ones, not those mzb bradley
>ones that she did with holly lisle..."
oh, you want good writing too? picky, picky, picky.
miriam arachne
Magic is the deliberate manipulation of coincidence
--
lisa cohen
>
> lisa cohen:
>
> >i liked both books' descriptions of the various seelie/unseelie lands
> >and people--very different, but both interesting and well-conceived.
> >both are "good reads"--easy to get into and a story that pulls you
> >through.
>
> If you like the idea of people reconstructing the idea of faerie, and
> also where music comes into play with all of this, look for the
> _Borderlands_ books -- anthologies based on a shared world.
oooh--i think we have at least some of these!
<>
>
> Unrelated, but that it's a good series, check out what Kage Baker has
> written.
i have now read the first three of these and second your suggestion.
*very* different than any of the books that have been discussed here,
though. there are short stories, too, which i'm hoping some publisher
will have the sense to collect into a volume.
lisa
lisa cohen
<movie from WFTO>
> I know they thought they'd sold the script to hollywood at one point,
> then decided to try and do it as a no budget movie on their own....and
> then it all just sank from veiw.
>
> Uh, i think part of the problem was the involvement of her husband,
> Will...
well, go on. don't stop there!
lisa
lisa cohen
>
> lisa cohen wrote:
>
<books that move fantasy into our world and ordinary people into fantasy
worlds> >
> >hmmm, maybe it doesn't work as well in non-kids books, i just still like
> >all the kids books that i used to like? i can't come up with any
> >examples of good ones right now.
>
> Lisa Goldstein _Dark Cities Underground_
oh good, another one i can read by going down to the family room and
finding it (and fighting the carpenter ants!).
<>
> Here's some blurbs on these books from
> http://www.feministsf.org/femsf/authorsg.html#galford
>
> (a cool site, BTW -- Feminist Science Fiction, Fantasy, & Utopia)
oh my--tons of ideas--very dangerous site--thank you!
<>
> >lisa, thinking "not those mercedes lackey ones, not those mzb bradley
> >ones that she did with holly lisle..."
>
> oh, you want good writing too? picky, picky, picky.
the mzb/holly lisle ones are not as terrible as some of mzb's later
collaborations (how's that for a ringing endorsement?) but i do recall a
frustration with "every princess gets her prince" sort of plotting (i'm
discussing _glenraven_ and _in the rift_ for those of you who are
wondering). i really like some of mercedes lackey's early stuff--the
_arrows of the queen_ trilogy and the _magic's price_ trilogy. and then
she started writing too many books each year or something and the
writing quality dropped. there's a series with two women, one of whom
is bonded to a sword where i really really wanted it to be good and it
kept getting worse and worse and....
lisa
Ayana Craven
lisa cohen <lco...@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote:
>Miriam Arachne wrote:
>>
>> lisa cohen:
>>
>> >i liked both books' descriptions of the various seelie/unseelie lands
>> >and people--very different, but both interesting and well-conceived.
>> >both are "good reads"--easy to get into and a story that pulls you
>> >through.
>>
>> If you like the idea of people reconstructing the idea of faerie, and
>> also where music comes into play with all of this, look for the
>> _Borderlands_ books -- anthologies based on a shared world.
>
>oooh--i think we have at least some of these!
Either all of them, or all I've been able to find. I'd buy more if
somebody would *write* more. (Anybody, feel free to pass along the
*HINT* *HINT*).
><>
>>
>> Unrelated, but that it's a good series, check out what Kage Baker has
>> written.
>
>i have now read the first three of these and second your suggestion.
>*very* different than any of the books that have been discussed here,
>though. there are short stories, too, which i'm hoping some publisher
>will have the sense to collect into a volume.
I sense it's time to go back to the bookstore.
Ayana, not-mod
--
I think that we have to consider the possibility that he's a
Promise Keeper.
-- Lisa, discussing soc.bi
--
Miriam Arachne
>lisa cohen wrote:
>>Miriam Arachne wrote:
>>>
>>> lisa cohen:
>>>
>>> >i liked both books' descriptions of the various seelie/unseelie lands
>>> >and people--very different, but both interesting and well-conceived.
>>> >both are "good reads"--easy to get into and a story that pulls you
>>> >through.
>>>
>>> If you like the idea of people reconstructing the idea of faerie, and
>>> also where music comes into play with all of this, look for the
>>> _Borderlands_ books -- anthologies based on a shared world.
>>
>>oooh--i think we have at least some of these!
>
>Either all of them, or all I've been able to find. I'd buy more if
>somebody would *write* more. (Anybody, feel free to pass along the
>*HINT* *HINT*).
<sigh> me too. Not only are there only a few of them, but they're all
out of print, and I only seem to have one on my shelves. I think it
was one of the best examples of authors writing about a shared world.
>><>
>>>
>>> Unrelated, but that it's a good series, check out what Kage Baker has
>>> written.
>>
>>i have now read the first three of these and second your suggestion.
>>*very* different than any of the books that have been discussed here,
>>though. there are short stories, too, which i'm hoping some publisher
>>will have the sense to collect into a volume.
>
>I sense it's time to go back to the bookstore.
I just wish that she'd hurry up and come out with the next book....
miriam arachne
Magic is the deliberate manipulation of coincidence
--
Miriam Arachne
>Miriam Arachne wrote:
>
><movie from WFTO>
>> I know they thought they'd sold the script to hollywood at one point,
>> then decided to try and do it as a no budget movie on their own....and
>> then it all just sank from veiw.
>>
>> Uh, i think part of the problem was the involvement of her husband,
>> Will...
>
>well, go on. don't stop there!
Hey, remember what we talked about the memory being the first to go?
I can't really remember (I'm glad I looked at the site, I almost wrote
earlier that I thought that Boiled In Lead was in the movie....they
weren't but I think Steven Brust, another musician/writer (and member
of "the scribblies" the local sf/fantasy writing group) was in it.
I just think he was a bit of an ass, and difficult to work with, and
po'd a number of the people running around doing this thing for free.
I think he also antagonized some potential backers.
I also with take issue with the "SCA types" characterization. Knowing
the circles that Emma traveled in, and knowing some of the folks that
were in the movie, it's more likely that they were "festies" -- people
who worked the local Ren Festival.
miriam arachne
trying to unearth an old cats laughing tape
Magic is the deliberate manipulation of coincidence
--
Miriam Arachne
>Miriam Arachne wrote:
>>
>> lisa cohen wrote:
>>
><books that move fantasy into our world and ordinary people into fantasy
>worlds> >
>> >hmmm, maybe it doesn't work as well in non-kids books, i just still like
>> >all the kids books that i used to like? i can't come up with any
>> >examples of good ones right now.
>>
>> Lisa Goldstein _Dark Cities Underground_
>
>oh good, another one i can read by going down to the family room and
>finding it (and fighting the carpenter ants!).
remember, you're bigger than thay are
I hope you enjoy the book, i think it's one of her best.
><>
>> Here's some blurbs on these books from
>> http://www.feministsf.org/femsf/authorsg.html#galford
>>
>> (a cool site, BTW -- Feminist Science Fiction, Fantasy, & Utopia)
>
>oh my--tons of ideas--very dangerous site--thank you!
heh heh heh. We have our wicked streak.
><>
>> >lisa, thinking "not those mercedes lackey ones, not those mzb bradley
>> >ones that she did with holly lisle..."
>>
>> oh, you want good writing too? picky, picky, picky.
>
>the mzb/holly lisle ones are not as terrible as some of mzb's later
>collaborations (how's that for a ringing endorsement?)
I must confess, I don't think I've read any of the mzb collaborations.
I got mzb reading out of my system long, long ago.
miriam arachne
Magic is the deliberate manipulation of coincidence
--
lisa cohen
>
> lisa cohen <lco...@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote:
> >>
> >> Lisa Goldstein _Dark Cities Underground_
> >
> >oh good, another one i can read by going down to the family room and
> >finding it (and fighting the carpenter ants!).
>
> remember, you're bigger than thay are
or so we hope.
>
> I hope you enjoy the book, i think it's one of her best.
i actually went downstairs and got _borderland_ to try first, but i'll
keep you posted. so many books, so little time, etc.
<>
> >the mzb/holly lisle ones are not as terrible as some of mzb's later
> >collaborations (how's that for a ringing endorsement?)
>
> I must confess, I don't think I've read any of the mzb collaborations.
> I got mzb reading out of my system long, long ago.
vague SPOILERS for mzb books:
well there were a bunch of nonconsensual collaborations (books with her
name on the cover but written with someone else as you learned if you
perused the title page). i thought the last darkover book which was
written by/with someone new was a big improvement over the two or three
previous ones (_the shadow matrix_ grouping) which kept foreshadowing
something that never paid off in the ones that got written and now looks
to have been abandoned (i feel that way about _city of sorcery_, too--it
foreshadowed all of this stuff about that mysterious sisterhood that the
midwife belongs to and then we never got there or found out anything).
but i like darkover as a created world and kept wanting to see if things
got better. the books aren't unreadable, they just felt stretched and
thin.
lisa
fairest one
> Miriam Arachne wrote:
>
><movie from WFTO>
>> I know they thought they'd sold the script to hollywood at one point,
>> then decided to try and do it as a no budget movie on their own....and
>> then it all just sank from veiw.
>>
>> Uh, i think part of the problem was the involvement of her husband,
>> Will...
>
> well, go on. don't stop there!
will was also running for governor of minnesota for the ... arrggh...
green party? grassroots party? one of those... at the time.
it has been mentioned that perhaps one ought to run for governor or try to
make a movie at one time, but not both.
betsy.
fairest one
> lisa cohen <lco...@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote:
>
>>Miriam Arachne wrote:
>>
>><movie from WFTO>
>>> I know they thought they'd sold the script to hollywood at one point,
>>> then decided to try and do it as a no budget movie on their own....and
>>> then it all just sank from veiw.
>>>
>>> Uh, i think part of the problem was the involvement of her husband,
>>> Will...
>>
>>well, go on. don't stop there!
>
> Hey, remember what we talked about the memory being the first to go?
> I can't really remember (I'm glad I looked at the site, I almost wrote
> earlier that I thought that Boiled In Lead was in the movie....they
> weren't but I think Steven Brust, another musician/writer (and member
> of "the scribblies" the local sf/fantasy writing group) was in it.
i think bil is in the book. (i think that eddie and the fae open for them
for the st. patty's day show at first ave.)
betsy.
lisa cohen
>
> it has been mentioned that perhaps one ought to run for governor or try to
> make a movie at one time, but not both.
i can't tell you how many times i've turned to someone and said this
exact thing.
(okay, i can tell you: none. but i can sure understand how it would
have made things more difficult.)
lisa
lisa cohen
>
> On 31 Jan 2002 00:08:09 -0500, Miriam Arachne <mara...@spiritone.com> warbled:
> > lisa cohen <lco...@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote:
> >
> >>Miriam Arachne wrote:
> >>
> >><movie from WFTO>
> >>> I know they thought they'd sold the script to hollywood at one point,
> >>> then decided to try and do it as a no budget movie on their own....and
> >>> then it all just sank from veiw.
> >>>
> >>> Uh, i think part of the problem was the involvement of her husband,
> >>> Will...
> >>
> >>well, go on. don't stop there!
> >
> > Hey, remember what we talked about the memory being the first to go?
> > I can't really remember (I'm glad I looked at the site, I almost wrote
> > earlier that I thought that Boiled In Lead was in the movie....they
> > weren't but I think Steven Brust, another musician/writer (and member
> > of "the scribblies" the local sf/fantasy writing group) was in it.
>
> i think bil is in the book. (i think that eddie and the fae open for them
> for the st. patty's day show at first ave.)
i couldn't find that reference, but i just looked and found a place
where eddi puts boiled in lead's "hotheads" album onto the turntable
(hey, i still have one of those!).
lisa
fairest one
> fairest one wrote:
>>
>> On 31 Jan 2002 00:08:09 -0500, Miriam Arachne <mara...@spiritone.com> warbled:
>> > lisa cohen <lco...@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote:
>> >
>> > Hey, remember what we talked about the memory being the first to go?
>> > I can't really remember (I'm glad I looked at the site, I almost wrote
>> > earlier that I thought that Boiled In Lead was in the movie....they
>> > weren't but I think Steven Brust, another musician/writer (and member
>> > of "the scribblies" the local sf/fantasy writing group) was in it.
>>
>> i think bil is in the book. (i think that eddie and the fae open for them
>> for the st. patty's day show at first ave.)
>
> i couldn't find that reference, but i just looked and found a place
> where eddi puts boiled in lead's "hotheads" album onto the turntable
> (hey, i still have one of those!).
hummina. maybe it was cats laughing that played first ave in the book,
then. hmmm.
so, wait-- do you still have a hotheads album or a turntable? if the
former, i'll be right there. <grin>
b.
lisa cohen
>
> On 1 Feb 2002 18:26:21 -0500, lisa cohen <lco...@midway.uchicago.edu> warbled:
> > fairest one wrote:
> >>
> >> On 31 Jan 2002 00:08:09 -0500, Miriam Arachne <mara...@spiritone.com> warbled:
> >> > lisa cohen <lco...@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote:
> >> >
> >> > Hey, remember what we talked about the memory being the first to go?
> >> > I can't really remember (I'm glad I looked at the site, I almost wrote
> >> > earlier that I thought that Boiled In Lead was in the movie....they
> >> > weren't but I think Steven Brust, another musician/writer (and member
> >> > of "the scribblies" the local sf/fantasy writing group) was in it.
> >>
> >> i think bil is in the book. (i think that eddie and the fae open for them
> >> for the st. patty's day show at first ave.)
> >
> > i couldn't find that reference, but i just looked and found a place
> > where eddi puts boiled in lead's "hotheads" album onto the turntable
> > (hey, i still have one of those!).
>
> hummina. maybe it was cats laughing that played first ave in the book,
> then. hmmm.
i couldn't find the first ave performance at all in my cursory
look-through so i'm no help to you. i somehow kept flipping from
willy's audition to the evening of april 30th, thereby missing march 17.
> so, wait-- do you still have a hotheads album or a turntable? if the
> former, i'll be right there. <grin>
i have a turntable. no boiled in lead albums in my collection, but
ayana could have anything--we've barely scratched the surface of each
other's album collections. (probably a good thing with an album
collection (ba dum ching, thank you, thank you, i'll be here all week,
don't forget to tip the waitrons!).)
dang, does this mean you're not coming over?
lisa, whose turntable is currently out of sorts due to the carpenter ant
problem
Sarah Heather Cardin
>so, wait-- do you still have a hotheads album or a turntable? if the
>former, i'll be right there. <grin>
i don't have 'hotheads', but i have the first BiL album. on vinyl.
should i expect you soon? :)
sarah cardin
I am not afraid of the pen, or the scaffold, or the sword. I will tell the truth wherever I please.
-- Mary Harris (Mother) Jones, U.S. labor leader & organizer
lisa cohen
>
> fairest one:
> >so, wait-- do you still have a hotheads album or a turntable? if the
> >former, i'll be right there. <grin>
>
> i don't have 'hotheads', but i have the first BiL album. on vinyl.
> should i expect you soon? :)
meanwhile, i have since learned that we don't have any BiL albums,
here. dang, and i wsa thisclose.
can i tempt anyone with a joan armatrading that i have on vinyl that
last i knew had never been released on cd?[1]
lisa, [1] "secret, secret"--it has "temptation" on it and my all time
fave joan song "love by you"
Miriam Arachne
>fairest one:
>>so, wait-- do you still have a hotheads album or a turntable? if the
>>former, i'll be right there. <grin>
sarah:
>i don't have 'hotheads', but i have the first BiL album. on vinyl.
>should i expect you soon? :)
if it helps any there's also a copy of "Orb" on CD in the house....
miriam arachne
hoping the workaround works for now...
"Some people couldn't get a clue if they were covered
with clue pheromones in the middle of a field of raging,
horny clues, during clue mating season."
Anita Anderson, 1999
lisa cohen
> ...
>
> miriam arachne
> hoping the workaround works for now...
hey! i can see you!
> "Some people couldn't get a clue if they were covered
> with clue pheromones in the middle of a field of raging,
> horny clues, during clue mating season."
> Anita Anderson, 1999
i *love* this .sig, btw.
lisa
Miriam Arachne
>> ...
>>
>> miriam arachne
>> hoping the workaround works for now...
lisa:
>hey! i can see you!
well thanks to some brilliant individual who gave me the e-mail addy,
yeah, i can post.
>> "Some people couldn't get a clue if they were covered
>> with clue pheromones in the middle of a field of raging,
>> horny clues, during clue mating season."
>> Anita Anderson, 1999
>
>i *love* this .sig, btw.
me too. That's why I grabbed it when i saw it.
miriam arachne
off to work, and it's a beautiful day <sigh>
"Some people couldn't get a clue if they were covered
with clue pheromones in the middle of a field of raging,
horny clues, during clue mating season."
Anita Anderson, 1999
--
Ann Burlingham
>
> Carol A Nickolai wrote:
> <>
> > I also don't much like the kind of crossing the "real"
> > world with "fantasy" that the novel does.
>
> i was thinking about this last night because i think when i was little,
> this was one of my absolute favorite types of fantasy and some of that
> has carried over into adulthood.
Yes yes yes! I have little taste for "high fantasy," which is
making (finally) reading _Lord of the Rings_ hard going, though I
did love _The Hobbit_ as a child (when the
six-names-for-everything in LotR gets too much, i distract myself
with trying to figure out whether all the various descriptions of
various creatures are racist, or merely classist).
> i loved books where ordinary kids were
> walking down the street and found a coin or a phoenix or a book that
> granted wishes. or slightly different because they take place in
> another world but similar in that ordinary kids are placed in
> extraordinary situations, where they opened a wardrobe door or fell down
> a rabbit hole. i'm trying to think of better examples than GA or WFTO
> for non-kids books and of course all that is occuring to me are some
> books by barbara hambly that i actually like less well than a bunch of
> her other books. but anyway, i'm inclined to like a book that begins in
> that way--but then it has to follow through.
*sigh* Yes. Diana Wynne Jones is a goddess, I'll just mention
that.
> hmmm, maybe it doesn't work as well in non-kids books, i just still like
> all the kids books that i used to like? i can't come up with any
> examples of good ones right now.
I liked the way it worked in both of these, though it's certainly
not the way it was in some of the best kids' books. Maybe it's
because kids are inherently people who get little attention paid
to them, and have a hard time being taken seriously - even if
they *are* saving the world, who's going to know? Or let them out
of the house after dark? The constraints are part of the charm,
maybe?
--
Ann Burlingham <an...@concentric.net>
She was a girl with a wonderful profile, but steeped
to the gills in serious purpose. - P. G. Wodehouse
Ann Burlingham
> Miriam Arachne wrote:
> > Unrelated, but that it's a good series, check out what Kage Baker has
> > written.
>
> i have now read the first three of these and second your suggestion.
> *very* different than any of the books that have been discussed here,
> though. there are short stories, too, which i'm hoping some publisher
> will have the sense to collect into a volume.
There ARE?
-Ann, slavering only slightly, sending a sideways thank you to
Amanda W., who is probably the person who turned her onto Baker's
books
--
Ann Burlingham <an...@concentric.net>
She was a girl with a wonderful profile, but steeped
to the gills in serious purpose. - P. G. Wodehouse
--
Ann Burlingham
> -Ann, slavering only slightly, sending a sideways thank you to
> Amanda W., who is probably the person who turned her onto Baker's
> books
Or was it Andi M.?
-Ann, clicking her heels three times
Ann Burlingham
> fairest one wrote:
> >
> > it has been mentioned that perhaps one ought to run for governor or try to
> > make a movie at one time, but not both.
>
> i can't tell you how many times i've turned to someone and said this
> exact thing.
I'll remember not to run for governor.
--
Ann Burlingham <an...@concentric.net>
She was a girl with a wonderful profile, but steeped
to the gills in serious purpose. - P. G. Wodehouse
--
Ann Burlingham
> can i tempt anyone with a joan armatrading that i have on vinyl that
> last i knew had never been released on cd?[1]
>
> lisa, [1] "secret, secret"--it has "temptation" on it and my all time
> fave joan song "love by you"
Oh! I forgot to mention in May that a store in Portland had
several JA albums, on vinyl. Which store, now, dear me....
-Ann, who knows of course these things must be snapped up by the
discerning by now, but still....
--
Ann Burlingham <an...@concentric.net>
She was a girl with a wonderful profile, but steeped
to the gills in serious purpose. - P. G. Wodehouse
--
lisa cohen
>
> lisa cohen wrote:
> > Miriam Arachne wrote:
>
> > > Unrelated, but that it's a good series, check out what Kage Baker has
> > > written.
> >
> > i have now read the first three of these and second your suggestion.
> > *very* different than any of the books that have been discussed here,
> > though. there are short stories, too, which i'm hoping some publisher
> > will have the sense to collect into a volume.
>
> There ARE?
oy. i did a search and found six of them available as eBooks.
http://www.fictionwise.com/ebooks/Series10.htm
that could be another dangerous find.
this next page seems to list all of her published stuff but doesn't say
which things are Company-related
http://members.tripod.com/~MrsCheckerfield/
oh dear, i'd better stop this before i start buying things.
lisa
lisa cohen
>
> lisa cohen wrote:
> >
> > Carol A Nickolai wrote:
>
> > <>
> > > I also don't much like the kind of crossing the "real"
> > > world with "fantasy" that the novel does.
> >
> > i was thinking about this last night because i think when i was little,
> > this was one of my absolute favorite types of fantasy and some of that
> > has carried over into adulthood.
>
> Yes yes yes! I have little taste for "high fantasy," which is
> making (finally) reading _Lord of the Rings_ hard going, though I
> did love _The Hobbit_ as a child (when the
> six-names-for-everything in LotR gets too much, i distract myself
> with trying to figure out whether all the various descriptions of
> various creatures are racist, or merely classist).
both, i think. and sexist, as well. but the books are still amazing to
me, despite all of that. there are parts that are a slow slog but they
did such a good job of defining the "group of disparate people(s) band
together to fulfill mission to save the world which the author has
created" genre that i've yet to read one that i think is
better--although i don't seek them out. i've sure read bunches of them,
and some of them are such cheap imitations they're almost parodies.
>
> > i loved books where ordinary kids were
> > walking down the street and found a coin or a phoenix or a book that
> > granted wishes. or slightly different because they take place in
> > another world but similar in that ordinary kids are placed in
> > extraordinary situations, where they opened a wardrobe door or fell down
> > a rabbit hole. i'm trying to think of better examples than GA or WFTO
> > for non-kids books and of course all that is occuring to me are some
> > books by barbara hambly that i actually like less well than a bunch of
> > her other books. but anyway, i'm inclined to like a book that begins in
> > that way--but then it has to follow through.
>
> *sigh* Yes. Diana Wynne Jones is a goddess, I'll just mention
> that.
i'll second that emotion!
>
> > hmmm, maybe it doesn't work as well in non-kids books, i just still like
> > all the kids books that i used to like? i can't come up with any
> > examples of good ones right now.
>
> I liked the way it worked in both of these, though it's certainly
> not the way it was in some of the best kids' books. Maybe it's
> because kids are inherently people who get little attention paid
> to them, and have a hard time being taken seriously - even if
> they *are* saving the world, who's going to know? Or let them out
> of the house after dark? The constraints are part of the charm,
> maybe?
they have little attention paid to them and they pay attention to
different things, themselves. but also they have more free time to go
off and save the world--that's what summer vacations are for. in both
GA and WFTO, the people who can take enough time away from their jobs to
save the world are people whose jobs have unusual schedules so that they
can be available at a moment's notice to head off and have a battle with
their faerie foes.
lisa