HELP NEEDED: Alan of Dol
Kenneth Stewart
in the late 11th century. I know a little of Alan's sons already. I need to
know more about Alan himself and his ancestors if possible. I'm also looking for
more information on the Dol region in general.
All help is greatly appreciated and thanks in advance. Please e-mail me at:
kste...@gmu.edu
Kenny Stewart
Tom Camfield
wrote:
> I'm looking for information on Alan of Dol, steward to Count Rhiwallon of Dol
> in the late 11th century.
Caroline Bingham, "The Stewart Kingdom of Scotland, 1371-1603," Barnes &
Noble, Books, 1974:
"In the late eleventh century, when Malcolm Ceann Mor ruled Scotland,
Rhiwallon, Count of Dol, a town in Brittany southwest of St. Malo, had a
dapifer or steward whose name was Alan. The steward of Dol had three sons,
Alan, Flaald and Rhiwallon. Alan succeeded his father as dapifer; Rhiwallon
became a monk; Flaald's fortunes took him to Britain and he settled at
Monmouth in 1101 or 1102.Flaald's son Alan in turn had three sons, Jordan,
William and Walter. Jordan succeeded his uncle Alan as dapifer of Dol;
William became the ancestor of the English FitzAlans, later Earls of
Arundel; Walter, the High Steward of David I, was the ancestor of the Royal
House of Stewart."
Elsewhere I have some other information which I believe is from Arthur S.
Boyd Jr., "The Boyd Family," (Brooklyn, N.Y., 1924) that confuses matters a
bit with regard to the name ALAN. Descent as follows:
--Ewarin, Count of Dol, ca. 950. He was succeeded by his son ALAN, who was
in turn succeeded by his brother
--Hamo I ca. 980. Hamo's sons included Hamo II (ancestor of the Viscounts
of Dinan and the Barons de Dionant of England), Juahoen/Junkeneus
(Archbishop of Dol ca. 1000), RIVALLON (Seneschal of Dol, from whom the
later Counts of Dol descended), Gosclein de Dinan, Salomon and
Guienoc.Guienoc's sons included Flahald, ALAN (Seneschal of Dol in 1079),
and Rivallon.
So it appears from the latter info that a RIVALLON/RHIWALLON, Seneschal of
Dol, had a nephew ALAN, who held the same office--for whatever that might
be worht.
(I follow the Flahald, son of Guienoc, line down to the Boyds.
Tom Camfield - camf...@olympus.net
ste...@baldar.clark.net
I'm glad to see these Breton names appear in a thread - my charts
contain 3 seperate groups of Breton nobles, but I suspect that these
are interconnected. My lack of firm dates for them and my problems
with the various versions of their names prevent me from establishing
the proper links. Could someone look these over and perhaps help me
match them up with the names listed by Tom Canfield?
Group 1: Hamon "Dentatus" d.1047 m. Godchilde de Bellesme
Hamon, Dapifer born ca. 1030 M. ?
Robert Fitz Hamon born ca. 1060, died 1107
m. Sybil de Montgomery (dau. of Roger II)
Mabel Fitz Hamon born ca. 1090, died 1157
m. Robert de Caen
Group 2: Hamon born ca. 956 died ca. 1030 m. Rantlina
Flaald (brothers were Rivalon; Josceline de Dinan)
Alan Fitz Flaald born ca. 1016, died 1080
Flaald Fitz Alan born ca. 1046
Alan Fitz Flaald born ca. 1078, died ca.
1114 in Shropshire. Married Aveline de Hesding
Group 3: Guithenoc died 1040
Josceline born ca. 1036, Viscount of Porhoet, died 1074
Eudon born ca. 1066, died 1086
married Anne de Leon
Geoffrey la Zouche died 1141
married Hawise, dau. of Alan IV, Duke of Brittany
I'd also like to learn more about who these guys' wives were.
Of course I'd like to learn all about the Dukes of Brittany, but
we'll save that for another day! My sources are a number of
popular histories of France, which make passing mention of Brittany,
and the Family Pedigrees disk #1.
thanks, Judith Sanders
Tom Camfield
ste...@baldar.clark.net wrote:
> Could someone look these over and perhaps help me
> match them up with the names listed by Tom Canfield?
> Group 1: Hamon "Dentatus" d.1047 m. Godchilde de Bellesme
> Hamon, Dapifer born ca. 1030 M. ?
> Robert Fitz Hamon born ca. 1060, died 1107
> m. Sybil de Montgomery (dau. of Roger II)
> Mabel Fitz Hamon born ca. 1090, died 1157
> m. Robert de Caen
This is a bit removed from my last post, but I can tell you a bit about the
mother of Sybil de Montgomery. Roger de Montgomerie, Earl of Shrewsbury
(whom I do not refer to as Roger II, see following paragraph), married
Mabel of Belesme, described by various sources as "wicked, unnatural and
cruel"..."haughty, worldly-minded, crafty, and a babbler".
Two authors upon whom I drew, F. W. Montgomery and Thomas Harrison
Montgomery, both indicate that Roger, son of Hugh Montgomerie, married
Mable. But most accounts apparently show her husband as Roger II, son of
this Roger and grandson of Hugh. (Another unverified source also lists
several other Rogers early in this family line.)
Back to Mabel: "Among those whom either her ambition or her hatred had led
her to despoil of their rights was Hugh, Seigneur de la Roche Ige (accent
over the "e"), whom she had deprived of his castle.On Dec. 2, 1082, he
entered her chamber at the Chateu de Bures, near Troarn, and killed her
with his sword. Decapitated her, according to some. Hugh successfully
escaped. More detail will be found in "Dictionary of National Biography"
(v. 49, pp. 101-2).
Roger remarried to Adelaide, daughter of Ebrard de Puiset.
Mabel was daughter of Wilhelm II Talvas, Count of Belesme, d. 1050, an evil
scoundrel in his own right, who had his wife strangled. He in turn was the
son
of Wilhelm I, son of Yves II the Old, son of Yves I of Creil (b. 890), by
one account. The two authors I cited above, however, show William/Wilhelm
I's father to be Yves of Creil, son of Fulcoin and Rothais (and brother of
Sigenfroi, Bishop of Mans).
Hope this is of some interest. Sorry I cannot do a better job of listing
sources.
Tom Camfield - camf...@olympus.net
Jared Olar
> I'm glad to see these Breton names appear in a thread - my charts
> contain 3 separate groups of Breton nobles, but I suspect that these
> are interconnected. My lack of firm dates for them and my problems
> with the various versions of their names prevent me from establishing
> the proper links. Could someone look these over and perhaps help me
> match them up with the names listed by Tom Camfield?
> Group 1: Hamon "Dentatus" d.1047 m. Godchilde de Bellesme
> Hamon, Dapifer born ca. 1030 M. ?
> Robert Fitz Hamon born ca. 1060, died 1107
> m. Sybil de Montgomery (dau. of Roger II)
> Mabel Fitz Hamon born ca. 1090, died 1157
> m. Robert de Caen
>
> Group 2: Hamon born ca. 956 died ca. 1030 m. Rantlina
> Flaald (brothers were Rivalon; Josceline de Dinan)
> Alan Fitz Flaald born ca. 1016, died 1080
> Flaald Fitz Alan born ca. 1046
> Alan Fitz Flaald born ca. 1078, died ca.
> 1114 in Shropshire. Married Aveline de Hesdin
>
> Group 3: Guithenoc died 1040
> Josceline born ca. 1036, Viscount of Porhoet, died 1074
> Eudon born ca. 1066, died 1086
> married Anne de Leon
> Geoffrey la Zouche died 1141
> married Hawise, dau. of Alan IV, Duke of Brittany
>
> I'd also like to learn more about who these guys' wives were.
> Of course I'd like to learn all about the Dukes of Brittany, but
> we'll save that for another day! My sources are a number of
> popular histories of France, which make passing mention of Brittany,
> and the Family Pedigrees disk #1.
> thanks, Judith Sanders
>
------------------------------------
Though all three of these families were probably connected in
someway, the links are (sadly) untraceable. I think Burke's Peerage
shows HAMON DENTATUS and his family as a branch of the Dukes of Normandy,
though that may be erroneous. As for the other branches, I don't believe
anyone has been able to reconstruct exactly how these families branched
off of the main line of the Breton Ducal House(s). Someone please
correct me if I'm wrong . . .
Jared Olar
ol...@eagle.uis.edu
Tom Camfield
camf...@olympus.net (Tom Camfield) wrote:
P.S.--I note that you are cross-posting to a "soc.genealogy.breton"
Is this an actual group? I don't have it from my server; closest I come is
"soc.genealogy.benelux"
Tom Camfield - camf...@olympus.net
Tom Camfield
> Could someone look these over and perhaps help me
> match them up with the names listed by Tom Canfield?
> Group 3: Guithenoc died 1040
> Josceline born ca. 1036, Viscount of Porhoet, died 1074
> Eudon born ca. 1066, died 1086
> married Anne de Leon
> Geoffrey la Zouche died 1141
> married Hawise, dau. of Alan IV, Duke of Brittany
>
> I'd also like to learn more about who these guys' wives were.
> Of course I'd like to learn all about the Dukes of Brittany, but
> we'll save that for another day!
I wouldn't mind a little more information on GUITHENOC and JOSCELINE, if
you have it at hand.
Meanwhile, some people you don't list:
Alan IV "Fergent/Fergant", Duke of Brittainy, m. Ermengarde, daugher of
Fulk IV, County of Anjou.
Alan IV was the son of Hoel (Count of Cornouille, and this may well be a
misspelling) and Hawise, daughter of Alan III, Duke of Brittany, and
Berthe, daughter of Eudes II (Count of Blois) and Ermnengarde of Auvergne.
Alan III was son of Geoffrey, Duke of Brittany, and Hawise, illegitimate
daughter of Richard I, Duke of Normandy.
Geoffrey (Alan III's father) was son of Ermengarde, daughter of Geofrey I
"Grisonelle," Count of Anjou.
Hope this is of some help.
--
Tom Camfield - camf...@olympus.net
Jim Stevens
>are interconnected. My lack of firm dates for them and my problems
(snip)
> I'd also like to learn more about who these guys' wives were.
>Of course I'd like to learn all about the Dukes of Brittany, but
>we'll save that for another day! My sources are a number of
>popular histories of France, which make passing mention of Brittany,
>and the Family Pedigrees disk #1.
> thanks, Judith Sanders
Try finding the book, "The Bretons", by Patrick Galloiu & Michael Jones.
It gives a good, concise history of the dukes of Brittany.
c. 1991, ISBN 0-631-16406-5, Basil Blackwell, Inc., 3 Cambridge Center,
Cambridge, Mass. 02142 USA.
Today is the first day of the rest of your life ! (jste...@iquest.net) Jim