Neuromancer question
heck
A question concerning William Gibson's "Neuromancer":
I just reread it, and, though once I thought I had a good guess for
the word to dissolve the barrier between the Rio and Berne AIs
(Neuromancer and Wintermute), I have no idea now what I thought or
what it might be.
Does anyone know if Gibson had anything to say about it? Does anyone
have a guess as to what it might have been?
The word was "a true name", whatever that may mean, had three
syllables, was chosen by Marie-France, the TA matriarch and conceptual
designer of the AIs and was spoken by her in her diaries concerning
her wish and imagination for the future of her clan.
Probably, therefore, it's not Wintermute, because it was Turing's
name, somewhat arbitrary, not "true", and does not characterize the
evolution of either the AIs or TA.
It's probably not "Hideo" because he, likewise, adds nothing to the
evolution idea. Also, there's no indication he had anything to do
with Marie-France.
Perhaps "Morocco", where a young Marie-France formulated the basis of
her philosophy, over a summer alone in the blockhouse on a beach
there?
I can't imagine what else.
Thanks
Grifter
>
Killjoy
heck <heck.appended...@acm.org> wrote in article
<348c75e2...@news.erols.com>...
> A question concerning William Gibson's "Neuromancer":
>
> I just reread it, and, though once I thought I had a good guess for
> the word to dissolve the barrier between the Rio and Berne AIs
> (Neuromancer and Wintermute), I have no idea now what I thought or
> what it might be.
>
> Does anyone know if Gibson had anything to say about it? Does anyone
> have a guess as to what it might have been?
As far as I see it, the word is like the suitcase in "Pulp Fiction" - a)
it is whatever you want it to be, and b) an abstraction of a concept, in
N's case, the concept of a nam-shub or unlocking word.
The word is a "true name" - echoes of Vernor Vinge, anyone? What are
people's true names in the book? Molly's almost certainly isn't Molly.
3Jane is a designation - perhaps her true name, given rise through her own
subconscious, is the key. There are others. Perhaps a true name depends
on your level of consciousness - is Case's true name Henry Dorsett Case, or
is he more comfortable with his identity as a presence in cyberspace?
But this is alt.cyb.chat. - not philosophy 101.
killjoy
heck
That Gibson wrote that the word 3Jane sang out had three syllables
suggests there's a possibility of deducing or guessing the word he had
in mind. If he had no word in mind and meant it to be a device of
mystery, I think he would not have specified three syllables.
Captain Infinity
In article <349f9ef3...@news.erols.com>
heck.appended...@acm.org (heck) wrote :
Has anyone ever noticed that the "true names" of all the really classic
cartoon characters have only three syllables? Look at the list:
Bugs Bunny
Mickey Mouse
Daffy Duck
Donald Duck
Charlie Brown
Betty Boop
Sylvester
Tweety Bird
Elmer Fudd
Bill the Cat
Atom Ant
Darkwing Duck
The Spirit
Bullwinkle
Krazy Kat
Cerebus
Minnie Mouse
Chip 'n' Dale
Marmaduke
Brenda Starr
Scooby Doo
Eek and Meek
Superman
Jabberjaw
Mighty Mouse
Snagglepuss
Johnny Quest
Fred Flintstone
Daisy Duck
Spider-Man
Underdog
Yogi Bear
Boo Boo Bear
Pink Panther
Speed Racer
Omaha
The X-Men
Toucan Sam
Scrooge McDuck
Earthworm Jim
Oh, sure, I could go on and on, but you get my point. Clearly, this has
some sort of special significance. Perhaps the name you are looking for is
among those in this list, hmmmmm?
**
Captain Infinity
...I've got *six* syllables because I'm *two* cartoon characters in one!
Sweet Poly
In article <348c75e2...@news.erols.com>,
heck <heck.appended...@acm.org> wrote:
>A question concerning William Gibson's "Neuromancer":
>
>I just reread it, and, though once I thought I had a good guess for
>the word to dissolve the barrier between the Rio and Berne AIs
>(Neuromancer and Wintermute), I have no idea now what I thought or
>what it might be.
>
>Does anyone know if Gibson had anything to say about it? Does anyone
>have a guess as to what it might have been?
>
>syllables, was chosen by Marie-France, the TA matriarch and conceptual
>designer of the AIs and was spoken by her in her diaries concerning
>her wish and imagination for the future of her clan.
>
>Probably, therefore, it's not Wintermute, because it was Turing's
>name, somewhat arbitrary, not "true", and does not characterize the
>evolution of either the AIs or TA.
>
>It's probably not "Hideo" because he, likewise, adds nothing to the
>evolution idea. Also, there's no indication he had anything to do
>with Marie-France.
>
>Perhaps "Morocco", where a young Marie-France formulated the basis of
>her philosophy, over a summer alone in the blockhouse on a beach
>there?
>
>I can't imagine what else.
>
>Thanks
Marie-France?
T---A
C---G Sweet Poly
A-T
C "We wouldn't do much if we didn't do things that
T-A nobody ever heard of before."
C---G -- Laura Ingalls Wilder
C---G
heck
>In article <349f9ef3...@news.erols.com>
>heck.appended...@acm.org (heck) wrote :
>
>>On 10 Dec 1997 03:09:51 GMT, "Killjoy" <kil...@pipeline.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>heck <heck.appended...@acm.org> wrote in article
>>><348c75e2...@news.erols.com>...
>>>> A question concerning William Gibson's "Neuromancer":
>>>>
>>>> I just reread it, and, though once I thought I had a good guess for
>>>> the word to dissolve the barrier between the Rio and Berne AIs
>>>> (Neuromancer and Wintermute), I have no idea now what I thought or
>>>> what it might be.
>>>>
>>>> Does anyone know if Gibson had anything to say about it? Does anyone
>>>> have a guess as to what it might have been?
>>>
Mystical. Indeed:
Fritz the Cat
Dick Tracy
Iron Man
Plastic Man
Reed Richards
Doctor Strange
Doctor Doom
The Watcher
The Leader
Medusa
Johnny Storm
Nick Fury
Tweety Bird
Roadrunner
Little Mermaid
Lion King
Aladdin
Sgt. Rock
The Lizard
Molten Man
Bizarro
Alley Oop
Lil Abner
Thunderbirds
Roger Rabbit
Mr. Natural
Flakey Foont
Wonder Warthog
Spawn
Fat Freddie's Cat
Submariner
I see what you mean.
heck
On 10 Dec 1997 19:41:47 -0500, sw...@inanna.eanna.net (Sweet Poly)
wrote:
snp
>Marie-France?
You think she'd use her own name? I'm not convinced. But, your guess
is equal to any other simply because there is insufficient evidence for
any sort of definitive answer. I'd hoped Gibson'd said something, in
the course of these fourteen years or so, and that someone who reads
here had heard.
Jeff Gordon
If I had to guess.. I'm betting on
'Neuromancer'
heck wrote in message <348c75e2...@news.erols.com>...
>A question concerning William Gibson's "Neuromancer":
>
>I just reread it, and, though once I thought I had a good guess for
>the word to dissolve the barrier between the Rio and Berne AIs
>(Neuromancer and Wintermute), I have no idea now what I thought or
>what it might be.
>
>Does anyone know if Gibson had anything to say about it? Does anyone
>have a guess as to what it might have been?
>
Ned Ludd
In <3490f...@news7.centuryinter.net> "Jeff Gordon"
<jgo...@centuryinter.net> asks:
Why can't it be "A True Name"? (It's got 3 syllables.)
Ned
John Buford
heck (heck.appended...@acm.org) wrote:
: >
: >cartoon characters have only three syllables? Look at the list:
Hey, I see.
Har-le-quin.... Lessee.. I get to choose special powers, right?
How about a time-stopping power, and a shield that no one can
penetrate with anything except large ballistic missiles, a
special laser satellite that orbits me and destroys every large
ballistic missiles that come within 40 km of me, lot-of-money
power (for the rough times). But I think the power I want most is...
Instantaneous Velocity Change! That would be neat-o.
--
Harlequin <harlquin#mail,cjnetworks,com -- email for PGP key>
(the address is (hopefully) not *too* encrypted for you)
"Yond Cassius has a lean and hungry look.. He thinks too much..
... such men are dangerous ..."
heck
On Mon, 15 Dec 1997 04:48:04 GMT, smaug <sm...@threeroastgoats.mv.com>
wrote:
>The Doctor wrote:
>>
>> On 10 Dec 1997 19:41:47 -0500, the silicon chip in Sweet Poly's head switched
>> to overload...:
>>
>> : >The word was "a true name", whatever that may mean, had three
>> : >syllables, was chosen by Marie-France, the TA matriarch and conceptual
>> : >designer of the AIs and was spoken by her in her diaries concerning
>> : >her wish and imagination for the future of her clan.
>>
>> : Marie-France?
>> This is probably stretching it but given the quasi-religious/supernatural nature
>of Neuromancer, the "True Name" may infact be reference to the mythological belief that
>to know the True Name of something (God, Neuromancer, a piece of toast, whatever) was to
> know the whole truth about something and, consequently, wield power over the object.
>Just a thought.
>
> Smaug
I think that's so. That's why I think the word can be figured out by
someone who is sufficiently in tune with the story and the
weltanschaung.
That's why, I'm convinced, it's essential idea is described in the
paragraph spoken by 3Jane that ends, "Take your word, thief." In my
paperback edition (Ace, 1984) it starts with one sentence on the bottom
of 260, to the top of 261. It's after Case and Dixie cut the ICE with
Kuang, after Case has the conversation with Neuromancer and after he
jacks out to appeal to 3Jane to give them the code so that *something*
will change.
Captain Infinity
In article <34969c2b...@news.erols.com>
heck.appended...@acm.org (heck) wrote :
>I think that's so. That's why I think the word can be figured out by
>someone who is sufficiently in tune with the story and the
>weltanschaung.
>
>That's why, I'm convinced, it's essential idea is described in the
>paragraph spoken by 3Jane that ends, "Take your word, thief." In my
>paperback edition (Ace, 1984) it starts with one sentence on the bottom
>of 260, to the top of 261. It's after Case and Dixie cut the ICE with
>Kuang, after Case has the conversation with Neuromancer and after he
>jacks out to appeal to 3Jane to give them the code so that *something*
>will change.
Hey, this book is sounding better all the time.
Tell me more about the three Janes and what they do with the
belt-on schwang. Are feathers and whipped cream involved?
**
Captain Infinity
heck
This is Terry's domain of expertease. Please refer this to her.
Terry L. Smith
heck (heck.appended...@acm.org) wrote:
: On Tue, 16 Dec 1997 01:07:27 GMT, Innf...@ix.netcom.SPAMBLOCK.com
: (Captain Infinity) wrote:
Are you sure you aren't thinking of "Th*W*tch" at End*r? I saw a
pic of her with her whip (a very large and intimidating whip, too) so
it seems fairly likely... Quite fetching it was, what with the
suitably appropriate expression she wore....
I do not know, however, if Th*W*tch is an expert tease or not. I
have no personal experience whatsoever in this matter. Perhaps you
should ask her. I believe she has recently been making Public
Appearances on the N*ut*p*a and possibly P*ly*m*ry groups. If she
brings Her Toy, quite possibly cream and various other assorted
items might get whipped.
I do not believe I will pursue this subject further. Farther. Whatever.
I do have a nice mask with a feather on it; does that help? And I have
a couple of very long Peacock feathers that the Lady Natasha Katski and
Amazing Gracie like to rip to shreds... (Rose-Toes, as her name indicates,
prefers toes.)
Who's Terry? I don't think I know her.
"My father was the keeper of the Eddystone light;
He slept with a Merpeep one fine night!"
- "Catfish" C'mell
"C'est moi! C'est moi! The Angels have chose
to fight their battles Below -
And here I stand, as pure as a Peep,
Incredibly clean (kitties are, of course),
With thoughts very deep -
The bitchin-est cat you know!"
- Lady C'mellalot
- M.Q.S., "Official Bimbo" for Baltiless; (SCOoF)
AKA Commander C'mell, *spiky* little bitch
AKA "kitten with a whip"
^ ^ /)
>*x*< ~meep <- kitten /( <- whip
/ )
/ (
*
--
*--------------------------------------------------------------------*
| M.Q.S. c/o T.L.S | "Don't play with that! You have no idea where |
| tls...@netcom.com | it's been..." -- Speaker to Elevators |
*--------------------------------------------------------------------*
heck
On Tue, 16 Dec 1997 03:23:28 GMT, tls...@netcom.com (Terry L. Smith)
wrote:
What was all the bimbo talk? You're trying to learn, are you not?
snp
>I do not believe I will pursue this subject further. Farther. Whatever.
>
>I do have a nice mask with a feather on it; does that help? And I have
>a couple of very long Peacock feathers that the Lady Natasha Katski and
>Amazing Gracie like to rip to shreds... (Rose-Toes, as her name indicates,
>prefers toes.)
>
>Who's Terry? I don't think I know her.
Cold-shouldered! You know more than you admit.
heck
On Mon, 15 Dec 1997 18:41:19 -0800, jack...@nospam.net (Jack Bell)
wrote:
>In article <3494B6...@threeroastgoats.mv.com>,
>sm...@threeroastgoats.mv.com says...
>> The Doctor wrote:
>> > On 10 Dec 1997 19:41:47 -0500, the silicon chip in Sweet Poly's head switched
>> > to overload...:
>> > : >The word was "a true name", whatever that may mean, had three
>> > : >syllables, was chosen by Marie-France, the TA matriarch and conceptual
>> > : >designer of the AIs and was spoken by her in her diaries concerning
>> > : >her wish and imagination for the future of her clan.
>> > : Marie-France?
>> > This is probably stretching it but given the quasi-religious/supernatural nature
>> of Neuromancer, the "True Name" may infact be reference to the mythological belief that
>> to know the True Name of something (God, Neuromancer, a piece of toast, whatever) was to
>> know the whole truth about something and, consequently, wield power over the object.
>> Just a thought.
>> Smaug
>
>As Vernor Vinge pointed out in the proto-cyberpunk story _True Names_,
>the 'spiritual' power of a True Name carries over (in a weird way) to the
>cybernetic realm. Specifically, a cracker's best defence is anomynity.
>This must be protected by using a handle (or multiple handles), by using
>IP forwarders or other methods of masking the his net address and by
>never giving out any information that might be used to discover his True
>Name (mentioning in a chat room that "It is really hot here today." when
>he is actually connected from Nome Alaska in dead winter).
>
>Should some other cracker or even a mundane learn the True Name, then the
>other person gains power. They can harrass the cracker, threaten to
>reveal the True Name to a cracker's enemies or even to the authorities.
>
>Besides; True Names can also refer to passwords or to information that
>can be used to guess passwords (such as children's names, birthdates and
>so on).
>
>As to the point of this thread -- I once had a chance to personally ask
>Gibson if he had read Vinge's story (which was published in the mid '70s)
>before he wrote Neuromancer. He replied that, so far as could remember,
>he had not, but had read it since. He did acknowledge the several ways
>in which Vinge's story foreshadowed his own work (including the
>introduction of Virtual Reality among other things). He also said that
>lots of people ask him that question, but he did not (and he repeated
>"NOT" very forcefully) steal Vinge's ideas, but rather invented them in
>parallel. Personally I believe him. Vinge got there first because he
>was both older and closer to the subject (he teaches mathematics and
>computer science).
>
>BTW: I also had a chance to ask Vinge a similiar question; did he think
>that Neuromancer et al was derivitive. I have that conversation on tape,
>so I should find it and play it back to see what he said (as I can't
>remember exactly). I think it was something along the lines of
>'Probably, but isn't everything derivitive of something?'
>
Very interesting. Would you elaborate on your conversation with Gibson?
I never felt Gibson ripped off, or borrowed overmuch, from "True Names".
The stories feel very different to me. Gibson was trying to develop a
comprehensive fabric and feeling, whereas Ving was, more simply, telling
a more technical story.
Jack Bell
In article <349ab584...@news.erols.com>,
heck.appended...@acm.org says...
< SNIP a discussion of the meaning of 'True Names' in _Neuromancer_ >
> >As to the point of this thread -- I once had a chance to personally ask
> >Gibson if he had read Vinge's story (which was published in the mid '70s)
> >before he wrote Neuromancer. He replied that, so far as could remember,
> >he had not, but had read it since. He did acknowledge the several ways
> >in which Vinge's story foreshadowed his own work (including the
> >introduction of Virtual Reality among other things). He also said that
> >lots of people ask him that question, but he did not (and he repeated
> >"NOT" very forcefully) steal Vinge's ideas, but rather invented them in
> >parallel. Personally I believe him. Vinge got there first because he
> >was both older and closer to the subject (he teaches mathematics and
> >computer science).
< Snip a mention of an interview with Vernor Vinge >
> Very interesting. Would you elaborate on your conversation with Gibson?
A couple of years ago I had a girlfriend who was attending The Evergreen
State College in Olympia Washington. One of her classes was a kind of
on-going seminar thingy about 'cyberculture' and one of the seminar
leaders was a teacher at that school named Tom something or other who
knew Gibson personally. I feel stupid that I can't remember the name
because I have a copy of a cyberpunk novel Tom wrote. It is actually
pretty good! I also corresponded with him by email for a week or so on
some subject I can't remember...
Anyway, one of the seminars featured William Gibson as a speaker (and
apparently this is something he *never* does). My girlfriend made sure I
knew about it so I could attend (they were open to the public, but
required for the students). It was a strange 'talk'. Rather than Gibson
giving a speech, it was presented as the 'Tom and Bill Show' with the two
of them sitting across a table from each other and having a straight
ahead discussion on whatever they liked. Incredibly interesting; like
being a fly on the wall at someone else's bullshit session.
During a break, right before the talk, Gibson was outside smoking a
cigarette and looking about as out-of-place as you can get. I was
probably the only one there that recognized him before he got on stage,
because no-one was near him. So I took the opportunity to introduce
myself and ask him a few questions. He was friendly enough, and didn't
seem to take affront except for the one question (which is why it sticks
in my mind so well).
BTW; I recorded the 'Tom and Bill Show' with a microcassette unit. The
quality isn't real good, but I think I still have it. Too bad I can't
post a transcript without getting a release from TESC...
> I never felt Gibson ripped off, or borrowed overmuch, from "True Names".
> The stories feel very different to me. Gibson was trying to develop a
> comprehensive fabric and feeling, whereas Ving was, more simply, telling
> a more technical story.
I wouldn't call _True Names_ a more technical story (other than the fact
that the details were entirely accurate from a technical standpoint,
wheras you couldn't always say the same thing about Gibson's work). I
agree that the feel of Vinge's work is very different from Gibsons; but
so is the work of Rucker, Shirley, Sterling, Bull, Brethke, et al.
What I think Gibson had, which Vinge didn't, was the punk ethnography.
He made the characters real without making them particuarily endearing
and made the settings even more grimly real (Something that, IMHO, only
Gibson and Shirley could pull off well. And Shirley has the real
credentials.). But both of them tried to deal honestly with the effects
of rampant high-tech on human cultures and mores. More than you can say
for most of the 'hard SF' writers (other than perhaps Benford, Bear or
Goonan).
----------------------------------------------------
<Insert Something Clever Here>
jack...@ricochet.nospam
Replace nospam with net and you can email me if you
really need to...
copyright 1997 - Jack William Bell
Fernando Conde
: heck <heck.appended...@acm.org> wrote in article
: <348c75e2...@news.erols.com>...
: > A question concerning William Gibson's "Neuromancer":
: >
: > I just reread it, and, though once I thought I had a good guess for
: > the word to dissolve the barrier between the Rio and Berne AIs
: > (Neuromancer and Wintermute), I have no idea now what I thought or
: > what it might be.
: >
: > Does anyone know if Gibson had anything to say about it? Does anyone
: > have a guess as to what it might have been?
Ok... this is just the idea I made myself about this, perhaps it can
help:
Think of a code: a password. It's a bunch of digital data. Numbers,
letters... once you throw it through the net, it is digital data. However,
digital data can resemble a huge amount of things: anything u can transform
into a discrete code.
That means... you can use an image as a code. Not a image in the
bitmap way, but a image itself. A computer can analyse that image to find
contours, to find figures (all that stuff in image recognition). That means
that even if you don't have the digital copy of that image but a hardcopy of
it, the computer will be able to identify it as a valid password. That's
what face recognition work with, doesn't it??
So... if you can code neural impulses in a discrete way (I supposse
that in the Neuromancer future they're able to do do that, to talk about the
simestim), you can use a code that is made of a thought or 'word'. It
wouldn't be a word in the lexical way, but a stream of thoughts digitally
coded and transmited through the wires.
I hope I did not misunderstand the question.
--
################
# >> VoRtEX << ##############################################################
################ >>>>>>>>> Fernando Conde Gomez <<<<<<<<< #
# Grupo Universitario de Informatica #159 #
# Vocal de Orden Interno, Coordinador diseño grafico, FTP , Proyecto GLOBER #
# I. T. Informatica de Sistemas, Universidad de Valladolid. #
#############################################################################
# vor...@gui.uva.es ## fco...@bebe.uv.es #### info...@atila.dcs.eup.uva.es #
#######################> P120-16Mb-3Gb storage-LINUX <#######################
heck
On Tue, 16 Dec 1997 17:45:28 -0800, jack...@nospam.net (Jack Bell)
wrote:
>In article <349ab584...@news.erols.com>,
>heck.appended...@acm.org says...
>> On Mon, 15 Dec 1997 18:41:19 -0800, jack...@nospam.net (Jack Bell)
>> wrote:
>
snp all of it, because I want to say only
Thanks for the story and for your thoughts. I haven't heard of all of
the authors you mentioned, so thanks, too, for the new reading.
Captain Infinity
In article <349731ad...@news.erols.com>
heck.appended...@acm.org (heck) wrote :
>Thanks for the story and for your thoughts. I haven't heard of all of
>the authors you mentioned, so thanks, too, for the new reading.
Hey, heck, I want to thank *you* for bringing this here.
I've found it fascinating.
**
Captain Infinity
Sebastian
Jack Bell wrote:
<snip>
> A couple of years ago I had a girlfriend who was attending The Evergreen
> State College in Olympia Washington. One of her classes was a kind of
> on-going seminar thingy about 'cyberculture' and one of the seminar
> leaders was a teacher at that school named Tom something or other who
> knew Gibson personally. I feel stupid that I can't remember the name
> because I have a copy of a cyberpunk novel Tom wrote. It is actually
> pretty good! I also corresponded with him by email for a week or so on
> some subject I can't remember...
Tom Maddox. And, yes, along with Bruce Sterling, Maddox is considered
to
be the "front men" for Bill Gibson, as Gibson seems to do a good job
keeping
his private life just that,... PRIVATE.
Sebastian
"Forty years is a human lifetime, Mr. Dze. Don't try to be human.
Time comes when you have to give that up." -- Schismatrix
heck
The text says, however, that it was a spoken word, not a more esoteric
form of information such as you describe.
Ravyn
heck wrote:
not only that, but he also said that it was a "true name". a spoken string of
code would not be the "true name" because that would have been something asigned
by humans. just a thought.