How do these people sleep at night?
NancyH
I had with my HOA that resulted in them filing a lien against my house, and
a final letter stating their intent to proceed with foreclosure unless I
paid all amounts due, over $1800, half of which was non-compliance
penalties. I paid "under protest" and immediately requested non-binding
arbitration. I couldn't afford an attorney at the time, and didn't want to
set myself up for a binding decision based solely to my ignorance. I'm not
a lawyer, but I'm a pretty good researcher. Based on my understanding, they
used including unfair debt collecting practices, refused to provide
documents that I was entitled to, and filed an illegal lien against my home.
Those were the issues we agreed to discuss in arbitration.
The arbitration was a fiasco. It started off badly, and got worse. In
their brief, they switched the plaintiff/respondent spots with me, and were
charging me with issues that I saw for the first time that morning and never
agreed to arbitrate - not to mention the fact that 3 of the 4 issues had
been resolved completely, by their own admission before the judge, for over
two years. When I brought this to the judge's attention - before anything
started - he said it didn't matter. He continued as if it were their issues
we were there to settle, and I was on the defensive the entire time. When I
tried to get one of my issues dealt with, he went as far as answering on
their behalf ("well, I'm sure they didn't mean to do that", etc). When he
asked THEM what it would take to resolve their issues, I completely lost it
and left in tears. Needless to say, he ruled in their favor and awarded
them attorney fees.
I believe my last post was a plea for a lawyer in the Orange County area
that someone could recommend. Once I saw that they wanted over $7,000, I
knew I needed help. Thanks to some good folks here, I not only got a very
good referral, but I also got a tip that the judge we used was scheduled for
a hearing of his own - before the California Commission on Judicial
Performance (where he was found guilty on most of the charges). Although I
felt a need for some legal council, I still wasn't too concerned, because I
knew we had agreed to non-binding arbitration.
At my lawyer's recommendation, I went before the board in February of this
year to make sure they understood everything that had happened at the
hearing, and to remind them that we agreed to non-binding arbitration. I
told them that as a show of goodwill, I would reimburse them for the cost of
the arbitration itself, but I wouldn't pay for any of the attorney fees,
especially since it was for time spent preparing for a case I never agreed
to arbitrate. I told them that if they wanted me to pay, they'd have to
take me to court.
As the saying goes, be careful what you wish for....
Two weeks later I received a summons to appear in OC Superior Court. They
stated in their brief that we verbally agreed right before the hearing to
convert the decision to binding. I was stunned. I guess I was still naive
enough at that point to think that the "real" courts were different, and
that people wouldn't base an entire case around such a bold-faced lie. I
was still confident, though, because I knew it wasn't true and all of the
"proof" was in my favor. There were letters requesting and agreeing to
non-binding arbitration, and nothing to support their assertion. That truth
was the centerpiece of our sworn declarations, but was conspicuously absent
in all of theirs. They swore under oath to everything under the moon, even
the fact that I had a "brand new Corvette in my driveway" (I'm still not
sure what the significance of that one was), but not one reference to this
supposed conversation to convert the decision to binding. At this point, it
was clear that they were going to keep upping the ante, assuming that I
would eventually fold - regardless of my hand. Little did they know, that I
don't intimidate easily, and I don't tolerate evil without a fight.
I spoke with my lawyer, and we decided to file a lawsuit of our own. We are
essentially raising all of the same issues I tired to raise in arbitration,
but we're now including everyone - the Board, the lawyers and the lien
company.
Sadly, my disillusionment with our legal systems continues to grow. The
judge that heard our defense regarding the binding/non-binding issue said
that he was going to base his decision solely on declarations, and my
testimony would not be required. That's why I found it odd when he ruled
against us, basing his decision on a copy of a letter they produced at the
last minute from the judge that heard our ADR. In the letter, the judge
stated that he was making the decision binding based on a declaration from
the property manager that the Board's lawyers sent him (6 months after the
fact), a copy of which I have yet to see (don't ask, I didn't quite
understand it either). We requested a reconsideration, the judge again
denied. We're now waiting to have it heard on appeal.
In our lawsuit against them, they all requested dismissal based on the fact
that the case had already been decided in arbitration. Nevermind the fact
that the issues being raised were barely discussed, let alone decided, and
that the arbitration judge never even made reference to them in his
decision. It also didn't seem to matter that the original arbitration
didn't involve either the attorney or the lien company. Just weeks before
they stood before a judge, requesting enforcement of an award granted them
for "their" grievances. Now, their claiming that I have already had "my"
issues decided, so I shouldn't be allowed to have them heard again. It's
absolutely amazing to see such schizophrenic behavior - and no one seems to
notice or care! Not surprisingly, the judge granted their request. I guess
I'm a little comforted by the fact that he told my lawyer, on the record,
that he was doing this because the law in this case wasn't clearly defined,
and that it would end up in appeals anyway. He also told her, several
times, that he wouldn't be surprised if we had a "landmark" case and he
would be interested in seeing how an appeals court would rule. A small
comfort at this point. As it stands right now, we are appealing both
decisions, and trying to keep the Board at bay until after the appeals have
been heard. At last notice, they want over $26,000 in legal fees.
I truly can't understand how anyone can intentionally inflict so much pain
and heartache with their incessant lies and manipulation. I'm so
disillusioned right now. Is it all like this? Has our legal system become
so corrupt and distorted that it actually rewards dishonesty and punishes
truth? I still have hope, but it's waning.
I'm writing all of this for three reasons. First, it's nice to vent with
people that have been through similar struggles. So, thanks for the ear.
Secondly, I'd be interested in any information or support I can get. I have
an awesome lawyer, but I figure two heads are better than one. I am also
the type of person that isn't comfortable just sitting back and trusting
anyone (too much) when the issue involves the welfare of my family. I want
to understand this as much as I possible can.
Finally, I'd like some input. My husband knows how important it is for me
to feel like I'm "doing something". Since it's at least a year before we
get back into court, he suggested I start a web page. I've been pondering
the idea, and would appreciate any feedback on the issue. If I do this, I
want it to be positive, not negative. I'm not interested in slam pages, or
anything like that. I would want to do something that might be helpful to
people in a similar situation. Do you think there's room for another site?
If so, what types of things do you think are most needed?
If you've made it to the end of this obnoxiously long post, thanks for your
time. It's oddly comforting to know I'm not alone.
Frederick L. Pilot
>Some of you may remember a few posts I did last summer regarding some issues
>I had with my HOA that resulted in them filing a lien against my house, and
>a final letter stating their intent to proceed with foreclosure unless I
>paid all amounts due, over $1800, half of which was non-compliance
>penalties. I paid "under protest" and immediately requested non-binding
>arbitration. I couldn't afford an attorney at the time, and didn't want to
>set myself up for a binding decision based solely to my ignorance. I'm not
>a lawyer, but I'm a pretty good researcher. Based on my understanding, they
>used including unfair debt collecting practices, refused to provide
>documents that I was entitled to, and filed an illegal lien against my home.
>Those were the issues we agreed to discuss in arbitration.
(snip)
Your post provides a very detailed account of the procedural history
of your case. But can you please refresh our memories at to the
substantive nature of the dispute with the HOA?
ROSS
field. They play dirty because they can. Money buys everything. Were you in
arbitration through JAMS/ENDISPUTE? Who was the judge?
NancyH
Frederick L. Pilot <fpi...@directcon.net> wrote:
> Your post provides a very detailed account of the procedural history
> of your case. But can you please refresh our memories at to the
> substantive nature of the dispute with the HOA?
It started with a letter telling me to paint my house. They sent the
same letter to most of my neighbors as well, based on the age of the
houses on our street (a Board member later told me) not, necessarily,
having anything to do with the home's appearance. Having dealt with
them on other issues in the past, I essentially blew them off since I
knew my house had been repainted less than 5 years earlier, and it
didn't need painting. After a couple of $100 penalties had been
issued, I decided to just do it to get them off my back, and sent a
letter to let them know that I would do it as soon as I had the money.
Money was tight, and I didn't send my January assessment until February
3rd. Knowing it was late, I included the $10 penalty. I was waiting
until the following week to send February's payment, knowing it would
still get there before the "past due" date. A few days later I got the
check back with a notice that they would not accept partial payments,
and that I would have to pay the entire amount due. They specifically
stated the amount of the assessments owed, and added a statement that
said "the total balance due on your account is $xx, including unpaid
penalties and interest". I knew I had to pay my assessments, and I
thought this was there way of one-upping me and getting me to pay the
penalties. I didn't know what to do. Based on prior experience, I
didn't have much hope of getting the Board's assistance, so I just sat
on it awhile hoping, I guess, that it would all miraculously resolve
itself.
I few weeks later, I got a letter from the lien company giving me 30
days to pay or they would file the lien. Still thinking the penalties
were included, I calculated my 3 late payments, including penalties and
interest, added payments for the next two months, and sent it with a
letter telling them that if they didn't accept this I would assume that
I no longer needed to pay them anything, and to quit harassing me (I
can't believe how little I knew about HOAs at that time.) Two weeks
later they filed the lien.
After I sent the check, I started researching and realized that these
guys were scumbags. They had intentionally worded the notices so that
it appeared to include the penalties, but if ever challenged on it,
they could weasel out by saying they never specifically said I had to
pay that. Knowing that there were over 800 homeowners, and I was
probably not the only one this sort of thing happened to, I decided to
pursue the issue to the extent necessary to "get them on the right
track". I sent a letter stating my intention to pay the amount
due "under protest" so I could request ADR. Having already paid the
assessment part, I requested an accounting of the collection and legal
fees both in writing, and before the Board at a monthly meeting.
Without ever receiving this information (to date), I got a letter that
gave me 10 days to pay (with no explanation of how they arrived at the
amount) or they were going to foreclose. I assumed a large portion of
the amount demanded included penalties, but it wasn't until I read
through the supporting documents that the Board submitted at the
arbitration hearing that I was able to confirm that $800 of it was
indeed penalties.
When this issue was brought up at the hearing, they produced a copy of
a detailed accounting that I supposedly got with the demand letter. It
cleverly had the total amount due in big numbers (that matched the
amount demanded) and another amount, in smaller print, that showed the
amount without penalties. They told the judge that I must have been
careless and just not noticed that I didn't need to pay the full amount
demanded in the letter. When I told the judge I had never seen that
document in my life, pointing to the letter I sent with my cashier's
check, that said I had no idea how they cam up with this amount, and to
please send an accounting as soon as possible, he blew it off as if he
didn't believe me. It wasn't until afterwards that I noticed the fax
date across the top - dated a week before the hearing. Also, in their
supporting documents for the legal fees, it shows charges for a phone
call and a letter drafted to the lien company. Both were done the week
before the fax date. In addition to being liars, they are either
sloppy or arrogant. I'm going with arrogant.
One thing I still haven't figured out is why the lien company even knew
about the penalties, since, according to the Board, they weren't part
of what they were trying to collect. When I need to use a collection
agency at work, I only give them the information needed for what I want
them to collect. I don't tell them about all of the other transactions
that may be pending. It kind of makes me wonder how they expect anyone
to believe they never intended to use the opportunity to collect the
penalties also.
When I step back from this and take an objective look, I have to admit
that I would have a hard time believing all of this if I didn't know it
to be fact. I would have never imagined in a million years that such
blatant lies, that don't even stand up to logic or common sense, are
accepted hook, line and sinker. I'm even more frustrated with the
apparent lack of interest in even HEARING my side of the story. I've
had this vague feeling at each turn that it's a foregone conclusion
that the HOA will prevail, and that everyone is just allowing me
my "right" to protest as some sort of formality.
Anyway, that's what led up to the events in my prior post. Knowing
what I know now regarding HOAs and the like, I can't believe how
nonchalant I was when signing the HOA-related escrow papers. I never
even gave it a second thought. After what's happened the past two
years - and what still lies ahead - I wish I had paid a little more
attention.
>
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
ROSS
Associations Institute members? Email us privately if you wish.
They don't sleep at night. They lurk about looking for ways to fine, lien
and take your home.....
RamblinOn
ROSS wrote:
> Perhaps that association monster from the X-files will sniff her out and voila
> - bye bye sis.
That tape is going to be her Christmas present. And a "Ken" doll.
>
>
> RamblinOn wrote:
>
> > NancyH wrote:
> >
> > clipped
> >
> > >
> > > When I step back from this and take an objective look, I have to admit
> > > that I would have a hard time believing all of this if I didn't know it
> > > to be fact. I would have never imagined in a million years that such
> >
> > I live in a condo, next-door neighbor is my sister-in-law and Assn.
> > Treasurer/Secretary/Commandant; she is THE most overbearing, intrusive
> > controlling person I have ever met. And I've met a lot. I was watching TV
> > one night about a serial killer, a woman from Florida, and it hit me like a
> > rock. A psychiatrist described the serial killer as controlling,
> > manipulating and likes to dominate men. Sis, you're on TV.
ROSS
- bye bye sis.
RamblinOn wrote:
> NancyH wrote:
>
> clipped
>
> >
> > When I step back from this and take an objective look, I have to admit
> > that I would have a hard time believing all of this if I didn't know it
> > to be fact. I would have never imagined in a million years that such
>
> I live in a condo, next-door neighbor is my sister-in-law and Assn.
> Treasurer/Secretary/Commandant; she is THE most overbearing, intrusive
> controlling person I have ever met. And I've met a lot. I was watching TV
> one night about a serial killer, a woman from Florida, and it hit me like a
> rock. A psychiatrist described the serial killer as controlling,
> manipulating and likes to dominate men. Sis, you're on TV.
>
> >
Darlene
at my condo association. It's true they don't sleep at night ...
most creatures who sleep under rocks sleep during the day.
--
Darlene
"ROSS" <NoH...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:39AEE089...@earthlink.net...
: Who is your management company, your HOA attorney? Are they
:
:
:
ROSS
RamblinOn wrote:
> ROSS wrote:
>
> > Perhaps that association monster from the X-files will sniff her out and voila
> > - bye bye sis.
>
> That tape is going to be her Christmas present. And a "Ken" doll.
>
> >
> >
Concerned Homeowner
>
> Perhaps that association monster from the X-files will sniff her out and voila
> - bye bye sis.
Maybe she is that monster.
> RamblinOn wrote:
>
> > NancyH wrote:
> >
> > clipped
> >
> > >
> > > When I step back from this and take an objective look, I have to admit
> > > that I would have a hard time believing all of this if I didn't know it
> > > to be fact. I would have never imagined in a million years that such
> >
> > I live in a condo, next-door neighbor is my sister-in-law and Assn.
> > Treasurer/Secretary/Commandant; she is THE most overbearing, intrusive
> > controlling person I have ever met. And I've met a lot. I was watching TV
> > one night about a serial killer, a woman from Florida, and it hit me like a
> > rock. A psychiatrist described the serial killer as controlling,
> > manipulating and likes to dominate men. Sis, you're on TV.
Do y'all live in Arcadia?
Concerned Homeowner
>
> Poor Ken......
>
> RamblinOn wrote:
>
> > ROSS wrote:
> >
> > > Perhaps that association monster from the X-files will sniff her out and voila
> > > - bye bye sis.
> >
> > That tape is going to be her Christmas present. And a "Ken" doll.
Have you considered buying her a tape of "The Colony"?
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/6303955940/qid%3D965180957/sr%3D1-2/002-0735978-8128812
Concerned Homeowner
>
> And they have colleagues in Tampa Florida who do similar things
> at my condo association. It's true they don't sleep at night ...
> most creatures who sleep under rocks sleep during the day.
I think they have colleagues in my HOA, too, and I know it's true that
they don't sleep at night. I hear them baying at the moon every night.
Concerned Homeowner
"I have no valid first or even second hand knowledge about what is going
on in the western part of the country"
Uni