More about Hiberno-English
Bob Cunningham
Recalling Padraig's recent remarks about whether or not Hiberno-English
should be considered to be a dialect of English, I've done a Google search
and have come up with some remarks that seem to be pertinent.
University College Dublin has a Web site at <http://www.ucd.ie/>. On a
page of that site, at <http://www.ucd.ie/~english/oldeng/stafpubs.html>,
there appear the following remarks:
===== Begin remarks =====
Hiberno-English is the name given to the Irish dialect of English. It
differs from Standard English on two principal counts. First, it is a
hybrid dialect, full of borrowings from the Irish language, with words or
phrases imported directly or in anglicised form ('meas', 'rawmaish',
'galore', and so on). Thus `galore' is an anglicisation of the Irish `go
leor', meaning `in abundance'. Galore has now passed into Standard English
usage, but Hiberno-English is full of such formations which remain unique
to Ireland. Irish also influences the grammar, as in `I'm after writing a
letter'.
The second strand in Hiberno-English comprises words obsolete in Standard
English but still commonly used in Ireland. Thus a word like
`oxter', meaning an armpit, is still in general use in Ireland but passed
out of Standard English around 1800. Similarly, words such as `cog', to
cheat in an exam, `crack', `bowsey' and `delph' have retained their
currency in Ireland.
In this pioneering work, Professor Dolan has prepared an accessible one
volume dictionary of Hiberno-English.
===== End remarks =====
So far as I've seen, the page doesn't give an explicit reference to
Professor Dolan's book. However, I happen to have a book called _A
Dictionary of Hiberno-English_, subtitled "The Irish Use of English";
compiled and edited by Terence Patrick Dolan, published by Gill &
Macmillan Ltd, Goldenbridge, Dublin 8; copyright Terence Patrick Dolan
1998. It seems reasonable to assume it's the book the UCD Web page is
referring to.
Padraig Breathnach
Thank you, Bob. Yes, you are right about the book you have being the
one referred to on the UCD site. Coincidentally, my copy lay on my
desk as I read your post.
Dolan is in vogue here at the moment, a frequent contributor to radio.
He has no reservation about regarding Hiberno-English as a dialect of
English, and possesses the appropriate credentials to make his claim
authoritative.
The reason I raised the question about dialects is that there has been
an implication in AUE that Hiberno-English is not properly regarded as
a dialect of English. It is a view which I do not share, but I wanted
to consider other points of view.
In spite of the obvious fact that I am rarely wrong, I like to provide
for the unexpected.
PB
Richard Fontana
> The reason I raised the question about dialects is that there has been
> an implication in AUE that Hiberno-English is not properly regarded as
> a dialect of English. It is a view which I do not share, but I wanted
> to consider other points of view.
Without knowing much more on the subject than was contained in the
posting of Bob Cunningham, I am of the view that Hiberno-English
is a dialect, though I'm sure there are sub-dialects (social,
regional, etc.) within Ireland much as there are
in the US and anywhere else.
I maintain that there *is* such a thing as Hiberno-Britic(TM), also
known euphemistically as "International English", but its
existence has no bearing on the question whether there is a
Hiberno-English dialect. While I believe that Hiberno-Britic(TM)
exists, I have no opinion regarding whether it is a dialect or some
other zoological organism.
Bob Cunningham
said:
[ . . . ]
> Thank you, Bob. Yes, you are right about the book you have being the
> one referred to on the UCD site. Coincidentally, my copy lay on my
> desk as I read your post.
I noticed later that the material I quoted from the UCD Web site was the
full contents of the front flap of the dust cover of Professor Dolan's
book.
Gerald Smyth
[snip]
> I maintain that there *is* such a thing as Hiberno-Britic(TM), also
> known euphemistically as "International English", but its
> existence has no bearing on the question whether there is a
> Hiberno-English dialect. While I believe that Hiberno-Britic(TM)
> exists [...]
Why 'Britic'?
Gerald Smyth
Schainbaum, Robert
'Cause it's Richard's coinage. Notice the TM.
By the way, Richard, I like it.
Richard Fontana
Would people prefer "Brito-Hibernian"?
Richard Fontana
Thanks, RS. That makes two, and possibly only two, of us.
Matti Lamprhey
> On 3 May 2002, Gerald Smyth wrote:
>
> > Why 'Britic'?
>
> Would people prefer "Brito-Hibernian"?
Yes, on the basis that the idiomatic and semantic ludicrosities are more
evenly matched.
Matti
Schainbaum, Robert
I like Hiberno-Britic. One vote for Hiberno-Britic. That's 'cause
Britic sounds funny.
Schainbaum, Robert
A question, if I may, Richard. I had thought the term to referred to
the collection of dialects, all having certain common characteristics,
spoken in Ireland and Britain. Your post refers to International
English, a taught version of English. I've always thought this was RP.
Clarification?
Robert Bannister
> Recalling Padraig's recent remarks about whether or not Hiberno-English
> should be considered to be a dialect of English, I've done a Google search
> and have come up with some remarks that seem to be pertinent.
>
> University College Dublin has a Web site at <http://www.ucd.ie/>. On a
> page of that site, at <http://www.ucd.ie/~english/oldeng/stafpubs.html>,
> there appear the following remarks:
>
> ===== Begin remarks =====
>
> Hiberno-English is the name given to the Irish dialect of English. It
> differs from Standard English on two principal counts. First, it is a
> hybrid dialect, full of borrowings from the Irish language, with words or
> phrases imported directly or in anglicised form ('meas', 'rawmaish',
> 'galore', and so on). Thus `galore' is an anglicisation of the Irish `go
> leor', meaning `in abundance'. Galore has now passed into Standard English
> usage, but Hiberno-English is full of such formations which remain unique
> to Ireland. Irish also influences the grammar, as in `I'm after writing a
> letter'.
>
> The second strand in Hiberno-English comprises words obsolete in Standard
> English but still commonly used in Ireland. Thus a word like
> `oxter', meaning an armpit, is still in general use in Ireland but passed
> out of Standard English around 1800. Similarly, words such as `cog', to
> cheat in an exam, `crack', `bowsey' and `delph' have retained their
> currency in Ireland.
I think one of the words that strikes English people most is the 'grand'
where we might use 'great' or 'fine' or even 'terrific'.
--
Rob Bannister
Padraig Breathnach
>I think one of the words that strikes English people most is the 'grand'
>where we might use 'great' or 'fine' or even 'terrific'.
That's one I use myself, even though my language is generally closer
to Standard English than is that of the average Hibernian.
"Howrya?"
"Grand, how's yourself?"
"Grand. And how's herself?"
"She's grand. That's a grand day."
" 'Tis indeed. Grand entirely. How did lads get on in the game?"
"Grand. We had a grand night out after."
"That's grand. Well, I must be getting on. Seeya."
PB
Gerald Smyth
> On 3 May 2002, Gerald Smyth wrote:
[snip]
> > Why 'Britic'?
>
> Would people prefer "Brito-Hibernian"?
TM? :-)
No, the word-order is fine. But is 'Hiberno-British' not available to
fill whatever need is not filled by 'Hiberno-English'?
Gerald Smyth
Schainbaum, Robert
You've noticed the TM. It's Richard's completely arbitrary choice to
make.
Let me say what I think underlies Richard's thinking. It's Britic as in
psychotic, schizophrenic, neurotic, hysteric, etc. Richard, though he
may not know the expression, is taking the piss.
Fun with words.
Gerald Smyth
> > > On 3 May 2002, Gerald Smyth wrote:
[snip]
> > > > Why 'Britic'?
[snip]
> You've noticed the TM. It's Richard's completely arbitrary choice to make.
Something might underlie his thinking.
Gerald Smyth
Richard Fontana
Fair enough. Well, I think using "Britic" instead of "British" puts it in
line with a lot of those other compound language family names, like
"Balto-Slavic", "Finno-Ugric", "Ural-Altaic". "-ish" just doesn't work.
Schainbaum, Robert
That's deep, Richard.
Mickwick
Deepish, I'd say.
--
Mickwick