Heaven open to everyone, says Pope
¤TT¤
Heaven open to everyone, says Pope
By Bruce Johnston in Rome
THE Pope has amended a Vatican pronouncement that the Roman Catholic
Church was the "only way to salvation", saying that Heaven is
open to all as long as they are good.
He said at an audience that "all of the just on Earth, including those
who ignore Christ and his Church" were "called upon to build
the kingdom of God". His words repeated what was pronounced at the
Second Vatican Council 40 years ago, but were clearly intended to
repair harm to religious dialogue caused by a document issued in
September.
The document, signed by Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, the Pope's chief of
doctrine, said that the way of salvation was "only in the
unique and universal Catholic Apostolic Church". The amendment follows
criticism of the pronouncement, which called other faiths
"gravely deficient" as a means to salvation.
Juggernaut
<8a123tocmi9r2t1k8...@4ax.com>:
>http://www.telegraph.co.uk/et?ac=000114832908976&rtmo=kCkYqkYp&atmo=ggggg
>3JK&pg=/et/00/12/8/wpop08.html
>
>
>
>Heaven open to everyone, says Pope
>
>By Bruce Johnston in Rome
>
>
>THE Pope has amended a Vatican pronouncement that the Roman Catholic
>Church was the "only way to salvation", saying that Heaven is
>open to all as long as they are good.
>
>He said at an audience that "all of the just on Earth, including those
>who ignore Christ and his Church" were "called upon to build
>the kingdom of God". His words repeated what was pronounced at the
>Second Vatican Council 40 years ago, but were clearly intended to
>repair harm to religious dialogue caused by a document issued in
>September.
>
>The document, signed by Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, the Pope's chief of
>doctrine, said that the way of salvation was "only in the
>unique and universal Catholic Apostolic Church". The amendment follows
>criticism of the pronouncement, which called other faiths
>"gravely deficient" as a means to salvation.
Yes, "open" to everyone, but not everyone will go to heaven.
>
>
¤TT¤
wrote:
>Yes, "open" to everyone, but not everyone will go to heaven.
That's absolutely correct. The pope said "if you are good".
That means, IMHO, that jews, muslims, buddhists, devil worshippers,
atheists etc.. will also go to heaven "if they are good".
I tell ya, this pope is OK. He tells it as it is. You gotta give him
credit for being honest and not trying to scare the shit out of
people by threatening them with hell if they don't do this or do
that and being a member of the Catholic church.
That means that all the confessions, prayers, church attendance
etc. are meaningless because you "can" be good without
participating in any of that stuff.
Hooray for the pope!
Juggernaut
>On Fri, 08 Dec 2000 16:14:12 -0000, jugge...@about.com (Juggernaut)
>wrote:
>
>
>>Yes, "open" to everyone, but not everyone will go to heaven.
>
>That's absolutely correct. The pope said "if you are good".
>That means, IMHO, that jews, muslims, buddhists, devil worshippers,
>atheists etc.. will also go to heaven "if they are good".
That's up to God.
¤TT¤
wrote:
>¤TT¤@¤¤¤¤¤¤.com (¤TT¤) wrote in
><le423to1ivbvok9v4...@4ax.com>:
>
>>On Fri, 08 Dec 2000 16:14:12 -0000, jugge...@about.com (Juggernaut)
>>wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Yes, "open" to everyone, but not everyone will go to heaven.
>>
>>That's absolutely correct. The pope said "if you are good".
>>That means, IMHO, that jews, muslims, buddhists, devil worshippers,
>>atheists etc.. will also go to heaven "if they are good".
>
>That's up to God.
The pope IS the representative for God on earth, he speaks
for God. The pope was told by God that anyone who "is good"
will go to heaven. When the pope speaks he uses God's
words.
It seems to me that you disagree with the pope and God?
Juggernaut
>On Fri, 08 Dec 2000 17:26:56 -0000, jugge...@about.com (Juggernaut)
>wrote:
>
>>¤TT¤@¤¤¤¤¤¤.com (¤TT¤) wrote in
>><le423to1ivbvok9v4...@4ax.com>:
>>
>>>On Fri, 08 Dec 2000 16:14:12 -0000, jugge...@about.com (Juggernaut)
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Yes, "open" to everyone, but not everyone will go to heaven.
>>>
>>>That's absolutely correct. The pope said "if you are good".
>>>That means, IMHO, that jews, muslims, buddhists, devil worshippers,
>>>atheists etc.. will also go to heaven "if they are good".
>>
>>That's up to God.
>
>The pope IS the representative for God on earth, he speaks
>for God. The pope was told by God that anyone who "is good"
>will go to heaven. When the pope speaks he uses God's
>words.
"Who is good" is up to God.
God is the only judge of souls.
>
>It seems to me that you disagree with the pope and God?
Nope.
¤TT¤
wrote:
>¤TT¤@¤¤¤¤¤¤.com (¤TT¤) wrote in
><q0723tc788vskpt85...@4ax.com>:
>
>>On Fri, 08 Dec 2000 17:26:56 -0000, jugge...@about.com (Juggernaut)
>>wrote:
>>
>>>¤TT¤@¤¤¤¤¤¤.com (¤TT¤) wrote in
>>><le423to1ivbvok9v4...@4ax.com>:
>>>
>>>>On Fri, 08 Dec 2000 16:14:12 -0000, jugge...@about.com (Juggernaut)
>>>>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Yes, "open" to everyone, but not everyone will go to heaven.
>>>>
>>>>That's absolutely correct. The pope said "if you are good".
>>>>That means, IMHO, that jews, muslims, buddhists, devil worshippers,
>>>>atheists etc.. will also go to heaven "if they are good".
>>>
>>>That's up to God.
>>
>>The pope IS the representative for God on earth, he speaks
>>for God. The pope was told by God that anyone who "is good"
>>will go to heaven. When the pope speaks he uses God's
>>words.
>
>"Who is good" is up to God.
>God is the only judge of souls.
That's right.
So what do you think of atheists, jews etc. or anybody that's
not a christian having access to heaven without having to
pray, going to church, confessions, holy communion and all
that which encompasses the Catholic faith. And having the
same chance to enter heaven as any christian as long as
they are "good"?
You know there are loads of christians who go to church
and all that, that will never get into heaven because they
are "not good".
Just think that someone who does'nt believe in Jesus or
God but who is good will wind up in heaven. Ain't that
great?
¤TT¤
wrote:
Just think of it this way, christians (at least Catholics) can't
threaten those that don't believe in God and Jesus with
getting roasted in hell anymore. No more threats from Catholics
and that is good.
Hooray for the pope!
Juggernaut
>>"Who is good" is up to God.
>>God is the only judge of souls.
>
>That's right.
>
>So what do you think of atheists, jews etc. or anybody that's
>not a christian having access to heaven without having to
>pray, going to church, confessions, holy communion and all
>that which encompasses the Catholic faith. And having the
>same chance to enter heaven as any christian as long as
>they are "good"?
I would not say the same chances, no.
>
>You know there are loads of christians who go to church
>and all that, that will never get into heaven because they
>are "not good".
Agreed.
>
>Just think that someone who does'nt believe in Jesus or
>God but who is good will wind up in heaven. Ain't that
>great?
We don't know that for sure. The Church only says it's possible and not
beyond the realm of God's judgement.
>
Juggernaut
¤TT¤
wrote:
>¤TT¤@¤¤¤¤¤¤.com (¤TT¤) wrote in
><bp723t875g28acrj5...@4ax.com>:
>>>"Who is good" is up to God.
>>>God is the only judge of souls.
>>
>>That's right.
>>
>>So what do you think of atheists, jews etc. or anybody that's
>>not a christian having access to heaven without having to
>>pray, going to church, confessions, holy communion and all
>>that which encompasses the Catholic faith. And having the
>>same chance to enter heaven as any christian as long as
>>they are "good"?
>
>I would not say the same chances, no.
Why not?
Why should anyone who is "good" not go to heaven?
The pope says that heaven is open for all "good" people.
Why do you disagree with the pope? Please elaborate.
Can & will you deny that there are good buddhists, wiccans, atheists,
hindus etc., just as there are good Catholics & Christians?
>
>>
>>You know there are loads of christians who go to church
>>and all that, that will never get into heaven because they
>>are "not good".
>
>Agreed.
>
>>
>>Just think that someone who does'nt believe in Jesus or
>>God but who is good will wind up in heaven. Ain't that
>>great?
>
>We don't know that for sure. The Church only says it's possible and not
>beyond the realm of God's judgement.
THE Pope has amended a Vatican pronouncement that the Roman Catholic
Church was the "only way to salvation", saying that Heaven is
open to all as long as they are good.
Read the above statement again, it does not say "it's possible".
It says "heaven is open to all as long as they are good".
That's a positive statement with no ifs, buts or maybes. You
are attempting to falsely imply that it says it "it'spossible" in
interpreting that statement. I don't see that "it's possible"
anywhere in that statement. Can you point it out to me?
Don't you like what the pope has commanded?
>
>>
¤TT¤
wrote:
How come?
Do you enjoy threatening people with a good roasting in hell
or something?
Threats are not "good", you know.
Kevin Lynch
Heaven is through relationship with God. In the Old Testament we see various
accounts of people who 'walked with God' in relationship, and it was
accounted as rightiousness to them. God established a covenant with his
chosen people through the law of Moses, and they were to be an example, and
lead the way to God for the rest of the world. Then, in the New Testament,
we see God establish a new covenant. No longer are we made rightious through
the law, but by faith.
Scriptures teaches that our own goodness is not enough to make ourselves
right with God. Unfortunately there are many people today who are genuinly
sincere regarding they way they try to live their life, but it is possible
to be sincerely wrong. Jesus plainly said, "...I am the way, the truth and
the life. NO MAN comes to the Father except by me....". Outside of a
personal faith and trust in Jesus Christ there is no way into Heaven.
Unfortunately today, many people have substituted RELIGION in the place of
RELATIONSHIP, whatever that religion may be, whether Islam, Buddism, or even
Christianity. God does not want our religious ritual and piety; he wants our
HEART. God did not send his son to be crucified on a cross in order that we
could have some warm, fuzzy ritual and a cosy Sunday service once a week.
Jesus willingly laid down his life in order that we could have our sins
forgiven and enter into relationship with God. To ignore Christ is
ultimately to reject Christ, and therefore to reject the offer that God
places before us.
Let me just reiterate. The whole point and purpose of Christianity is not
simply to go through religious motions and go to church and try to be good.
I dare say a few of you on this NG may know some religious people, and they
are the most miserable of people on earth. Religion of itself can never
bring us into a right standing with God. But the person who knows God
personally is full of the joy that only Jesus can bring.
KEVIN LYNCH
Juggernaut
He didn't amend any document. The newspaper article is in error.
>
>Read the above statement again, it does not say "it's possible".
>It says "heaven is open to all as long as they are good".
And there's the rub, if they are good. And good includes following the
truth of Christ.
>
>That's a positive statement with no ifs, buts or maybes. You
>are attempting to falsely imply that it says it "it'spossible" in
>interpreting that statement. I don't see that "it's possible"
>anywhere in that statement. Can you point it out to me?
>
>Don't you like what the pope has commanded?
He doesn't command anything, but defines and teaches.
>
>
>>
>>>
>
>
Juggernaut
Because you haven't read all of the Church's teachings and the Pope's
writings on it. Have you read "Dominen Iesus"?
>
>Do you enjoy threatening people with a good roasting in hell
>or something?
I don't threaten people, sorry.
¤TT¤
wrote:
>>>>三T一中中中.com wrote:
>>>>Just think of it this way, christians (at least Catholics) can't
>>>>threaten those that don't believe in God and Jesus with
>>>>getting roasted in hell anymore. No more threats from Catholics
>>>>and that is good.
>>>>
>>>>Hooray for the pope!
>>>
>>>Your premise is incorrect.
>>> Sorry.
>>
>>How come?
>
>Because you haven't read all of the Church's teachings and the Pope's
>writings on it. Have you read "Dominen Iesus"?
What the hell do I need to read that for when I already read the pope's
statement in the link shown below?
Read the article in the link below again, then tell me that it's a lie
and that the pope didn't say that all "good" people can go to heaven.
>>
>>Do you enjoy threatening people with a good roasting in hell
>>or something?
>
>I don't threaten people, sorry.
Did you or your mother/father ever say something like this to another
person, "If you're not good/if you don't do this or that you're gonna go
to hell"?
Shit like that is repeated from one generation to another.
Well, believe it or not, the pope did say that all "good" people
can go to heaven, no matter their religious affiliation or non
religious affiliation.
Me thinks you are in a corner and the only way out for you is
to fib and fabricate.
¤TT¤
wrote:
>What rubbish!! The Bible has always made it clear that the only way to
>Heaven is through relationship with God. In the Old Testament we see various
>accounts of people who 'walked with God' in relationship, and it was
>accounted as rightiousness to them. God established a covenant with his
>chosen people through the law of Moses, and they were to be an example, and
>lead the way to God for the rest of the world. Then, in the New Testament,
>we see God establish a new covenant. No longer are we made rightious through
>the law, but by faith.
>
>Scriptures teaches that our own goodness is not enough to make ourselves
>right with God. Unfortunately there are many people today who are genuinly
>sincere regarding they way they try to live their life, but it is possible
>to be sincerely wrong. Jesus plainly said, "...I am the way, the truth and
>the life. NO MAN comes to the Father except by me....". Outside of a
>personal faith and trust in Jesus Christ there is no way into Heaven.
>Unfortunately today, many people have substituted RELIGION in the place of
>RELATIONSHIP, whatever that religion may be, whether Islam, Buddism, or even
>Christianity. God does not want our religious ritual and piety; he wants our
>HEART. God did not send his son to be crucified on a cross in order that we
>could have some warm, fuzzy ritual and a cosy Sunday service once a week.
>Jesus willingly laid down his life in order that we could have our sins
>forgiven and enter into relationship with God. To ignore Christ is
>ultimately to reject Christ, and therefore to reject the offer that God
>places before us.
'There is something feeble and a little contemptible about a man who
cannot face the perils of life without the help of comfortable myths.
Almost inevitably, some part of him is aware that they are myths, and
that he believes them only because they are comforting. But he dares not
face this thought! Moreover, since he is aware, however dimly, that his
opinions are not rational, he becomes furious when they are disputed.'
-Bertrand Russell
¤TT¤
wrote:
>What rubbish!! The Bible has always made it clear that the only way to
>Heaven is through relationship with God. In the Old Testament we see various
>accounts of people who 'walked with God' in relationship, and it was
>accounted as rightiousness to them. God established a covenant with his
>chosen people through the law of Moses, and they were to be an example, and
>lead the way to God for the rest of the world. Then, in the New Testament,
>we see God establish a new covenant. No longer are we made rightious through
>the law, but by faith.
'A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy,
education, and social ties; no religious basis is necessary. Man would
indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear and
punshiment and hope of reward after death.' -Albert Einstein----------
I cannot imagine a god who rewards and punishes the objects of his
creation, whose purposes are modeled after our own a god, in short, who
is but a reflection of human frailty. Neither can I believe that the
individual survives the death of his body, although feeble souls harbor
such thoughts through fear or ridiculous egotism. -Albert
Einstein------------
'On the dogmas of religion, as distinguished from moral principles, all
mankind, from the beginning of the world to this day, have been
quarreling, fighting, burning and torturing one another, for
abstractions unintelligible to themselves and to all others, and
absolutely beyond the comprehension of the human mind.'
Thomas Jefferson-------------
'Say what you will about the sweet miracle of unquestioning faith, I
consider a capacity for it terrifying and absolutely vile.' -
Kurt Vonnegut-------------
Who says I am not under the special protection of God? -Adolf Hitler
Ben Ferguson
hasn't been able to pass any amendment to reform the election process?
Ben Ferguson
>Heaven is through relationship with God. In the Old Testament we see various
>accounts of people who 'walked with God' in relationship, and it was
>accounted as rightiousness to them. God established a covenant with his
>chosen people through the law of Moses, and they were to be an example, and
>lead the way to God for the rest of the world. Then, in the New Testament,
>we see God establish a new covenant.
But does it say that such relationships are the only way to heaven?
¤TT¤
>So if the Catholic Church can pass an amendment like this, how come the US
>hasn't been able to pass any amendment to reform the election process?
I think that after this election in the USA there will be changes made.
First off all the voting machines will be standardized, meaning that all
the machines will be the same using the same method in all of the 50
states. Some states are still using antiquated (more than 50 year old)
machines. This is absurd and must be remedied no matter what the
cost.
Kevin Lynch
ordained or prescribed? If God indicates that the only way to be in right
standing with him is to be in relationship with him, then it follows that
whatever conditions he lays down for that relationship must be the one that
stands. I mentioned before that Jesus stated that he was the way to the
Father. If there was any way, outside of Jesus Christ, of entering into
relationship with God, then he would have had no grounds for making such a
remarkable statement.
Just by way of throwing another peice of meat into the pot, it is
interesting to note that Jesus reserved his most damning words for the
people who, in his time, would have been the least likely candidates; the
Scribes and the Pharasee's. It is clear that Jesus had a disdain for
organised religion and it's tendency to REMOVE people from the God whom they
seek after rather than bring them CLOSER. He was scathing towards the
Pharasee's, because they themselves would not enter unto the way of life,
and held back those who would seek after it. How often today do we see the
same thing!! Where some TV evangelist will move and stir up the people and
urge them to dig deeeeep and give. 6 months later they are caught with their
pants down, whereupon they beg, with crocodile tears and much weeping, to
forgive. TOSH!! The reason why God hates religion so much (and let me define
what I mean by religion at this point! I mean going through the motions and
ritual of religion without ever taking time out to work on the relationship)
is that it only serves to draw people away from him. How many people on this
NG are Atheists or Anti-Christian, and have broadly based their decision
upon what they see in the world of 'religion'?
Religion is basically MANS attempt to make himself right with God in his OWN
way. That is why we see so many diversities of religion across the globe,
with the devotee of each trying to make peace with God, however they may
percieve him, through various incatations and rituals, but never coming to
KNOW the God whom they so desperately seek after. That is why Jesus had to
be so clear cut in his message; I AM THE WAY.....
God wants us to understand that no mere religion that we fashion
can ever open the way to Heaven. Yes, Heaven is open to all, but not all
choose to go the right way. So, having said all of that, to answer your
question, yes, the Bible does say that such a relationship is the only way
to Heaven, if not in word then by inference. Again, sorry for placing such a
long post, but I do like to make sure that people fully understand what I am
trying to say. Godbless.
KEVIN LYNCH
Kevin Lynch
Whereas anyone is obviously free to quote from various sources in
any discussion, I would much rather, in this case, answer to YOUR OWN
personal views on the comments I made earlier. Please feel free to post your
personal opinions, and I will be only too happy to respond.
KEVIN LYNCH
¤TT¤
wrote:
>TT,
'There is something feeble and a little contemptible about a man who
cannot face the perils of life without the help of comfortable myths.
Almost inevitably, some part of him is aware that they are myths, and
that he believes them only because they are comforting. But he dares not
face this thought! Moreover, since he is aware, however dimly, that his
opinions are not rational, he becomes furious when they are disputed.'
-Bertrand Russell
Bertrand Russel uses words far more eloquently than I could ever
hope to achieve. The meanings in the quote reflect my feelings about
religions & believers and are also my personal opinion.
Cheers
thomas
"¤TT¤" wrote:
>
> He said at an audience that "all of the just on Earth, including those
> who ignore Christ and his Church" were "called upon to build
> the kingdom of God".
All the just on earth? DAMNIT now he's keeping out most of the
christians! Back to the ol' drawing board.
thomas
Ben Ferguson wrote:
>
> So if the Catholic Church can pass an amendment like this, how come the US
> hasn't been able to pass any amendment to reform the election process?
Don't worry, we'll still be telling everyone else how to do it.
¤TT¤
How true that is!
Ben Ferguson
>Father. If there was any way, outside of Jesus Christ, of entering into
>relationship with God, then he would have had no grounds for making such a
>remarkable statement.
>
I don't dispute that. But what that verse says, basically, is that Jesus is the
only reason that we are brought back to God. It does not make us do works in
order to be forgiven.
Cleopatra
¤TT¤ <¤TT¤@¤¤¤¤¤¤.com> schreef in berichtnieuws
8a123tocmi9r2t1k8...@4ax.com...
>
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/et?ac=000114832908976&rtmo=kCkYqkYp&atmo=ggggg3JK
&pg=/et/00/12/8/wpop08.html
>
>
> Heaven open to everyone, says Pope
>
> By Bruce Johnston in Rome
>
>
> THE Pope has amended a Vatican pronouncement that the Roman Catholic
> Church was the "only way to salvation", saying that Heaven is
> open to all as long as they are good.
The pope is getting old. He's the most fascinating man I've ever seen, he
believes his own lies, saying that he is the representative of God on earth.
>
For God so much loveth this world that he send his one and only Son, so
whoever believes in Him 'll have eternal live, but the man who don't believe
in him is already doomed.
That means you can be very good, but you get doomed if you ignore Christ
>
> He said at an audience that "all of the just on Earth, including those
> who ignore Christ and his Church" were "called upon to build
> the kingdom of God". His words repeated what was pronounced at the
> Second Vatican Council 40 years ago, but were clearly intended to
> repair harm to religious dialogue caused by a document issued in
> September.
>
> The document, signed by Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, the Pope's chief of
> doctrine, said that the way of salvation was "only in the
> unique and universal Catholic Apostolic Church". The amendment follows
> criticism of the pronouncement, which called other faiths
> "gravely deficient" as a means to salvation.
>