Green Narrows Trip Report
Scott Bristow
OK here it is.
Green Blunder?
I have been paddling very aggressively for this past year and have logged
over 30 runs on Section 4 at levels from 1.1 to 2.5. At least 10 runs down
the Suicide at levels from –2 to 7. A couple runs on Johnies creek,
Overflow creek, and several other challenging runs. All in the last 8
months. I have had my eye on the Green Narrows for awhile as a kind of
benchmark of skill. Recently I have been paddling with a guy who has run it
in excess of 100 times so it seemed like a perfect opportunity.
The Green Narrows is currently a benchmark run in the Southeastern USA. Not
to long ago it was considered hair but in the last 8 years or so it has
become an advanced run and is no longer considered hair. It is a strange
river in that it is a very steep creek that is dam controlled. Over the
length of the river it averages 650 vertical feet per mile. It has a lot of
flat water so there are portions that are much steeper than that. There are
no drops over about 20 feet so it does not get its steepness from 1 or 2
major drops but is instead a totally continuos run.
In the last few weeks we cancelled 3 trips up to it since the water was at
insane levels.
Finally this last week we had no rain and it seemed perfect. Joe, Rob, and
Myself all have very similar experience and skill levels. They are both
very slightly more experienced with runs on the Upper Yough and Gauley that
I do not have but I am a more aggressive paddler so in the end it all equals
out. We all three have paddled together a lot and know each other and our
skills very well. We had all paddled with Jim on several occasions and know
him fairly well to.
Rob had a wedding to go to so Saturday Joe and I went and ran the Suicide
section of the Little River Canyon in AL USA. We ran all three sections so
it was a fairly long day but we had no incidents since we both know this
river very well. We drove back to Atlanta Saturday and picked up Rob. We
then headed up to Spartenburg to stay at Jim’s place.
Sunday morning we all got up and Jim called the Gauge. It was releasing two
full generators plus overflow which meant a level of 200% normal flow. We
sat down at breakfast and talked. Jim said it would be big and pushy but he
had run it at that level. We debated a few other creeks such as the Rocky
Broad. In the end it came down to a group decision that we had driven up
here to paddle the Green and it was running so lets do it.
My first inkling that something was wrong was when we got to the put in off
the only class V run in the area that was running and we where the only ones
there. Jim said it was because not many people ran it this high. We ran
shuttle and decided to put in at the Big Hungry put in. This lets you run a
really nice III/IV creek and drops you into the Green right at the regular
put in. It was a very nice warm up. A lot of fun. I was very nervous at
the put in but this really helped calm me down. The Green Narrows has such
a reputation that I was letting play with my mind. Getting in my boat and
running a tight little III/IV creek was just what the doctor ordered. By
the time we had gotten to the bottom of the creek we where all paddling well
and having a good time.
Once we got to the Green I led the first ¾ miles through class III- entrance
stuff. I always enjoy leading and it helped me feel more in control. When
we got to Son of Frankenstein Jim took lead over and we followed. The Son
was no big deal and we all had fine lines. Then comes some more minor stuff
quickly followed by the nasty stuff. Frankenstein is first. It looked
nothing like the rapid I had seen in videos. I know the level was higher
than the videos but this was nasty looking. Jim showed us a nice clean line
and eddied out below. I followed and had a nice line through the rapid but
relaxed at the end and flipped at the eddy line. I was a little perturbed
with myself since I think what cause d me to flip was being uptight. I
should not have let it affect me. Joe followed and had a nice line; He hit
the boof high and came through the slot on a nice angle. Like me he messed
up the class II bottom. He flipped and hit his head pretty hard, It was a
pretty sudden flip and the rock was about 1 inch under water so his head
really snapped back. I started to peel out and help because I was sure he
was unconscious but he managed to roll up and hit the eddy. It was obvious
he was not all right though. I did not see Robs run because I was watching
Joe but I believe it was OK. We all got out and sat for awhile to let Joe
get his head back on and inspect the scratches in his helmet. We discussed
walking out but decided that Joe could walk the bigger rapids and still have
fun on the medium stuff.
The next few rapid we where getting along pretty good and things where
starting to hum along. Pincushion was a clean run but we a small
communication issue. Jim was telling us to angle left and put a stroke on
the right to avoid the pincushion rock at the bottom. He also said we
should end up on the right hand side of it. This was not making sense to me
or Rob so we sat and looked at it for a long time.. Finally Rob and I
decided that paddling right down the center, lining up with our nose down
the seam in the water aiming at the right corner of the rock. Jim said this
was correct. I never figured out how that was left but he said that was
what he meant so we went. We all had nice lines once we finally got it all
straightened out. We then boogied through a few other rapids that I don’t
remember the names of. The next major rapid I am not sure of the name but I
believe it is Boof or Consequences. We eddied out above and scouted because
the next several rapids are very close. With Squeeze play, Reverse 7 foot
and Zwick’s all in sight. Rob and Joe where watching while Jim was going to
lead and I follow. He was on what looked like the right line and I was
looking downstream for a signal when Rob and Joe starting running down the
bank to get to a better position to throw Jim a rope. Jim was swimming. He
managed to catch the eddy just above Squeeze Play but his boat and paddle
where gone. I needed to be down at the bottom to help get Jim across the
river so I ran the rapid. I caught an eddy just above the boof, which is
what I believe messed Jim up. He ran direct and hit the boof to high. From
the eddy it was a straight forward boof and a cool little slot. We then got
everything organized and set up and Rob ran it. He ran a clean line and
caught the eddy on the other side of the river so we could then tow his boat
back across and let Jim paddle it to the other side. Once we where all
together we went looking for gear. Just downstream was his paddle getting
recirculated in a hole. Jim went on down while Rob and I tried to lasso his
paddle. Rob made a fantastic throw and got it out of the hole but it came
loose and floated downstream. Luckily it beached on a rock just above
Reverse 7 foot. I then went down to find Jim while Rob went back up to Joe.
I got to Zwick’s and Jim was just tugging his boat to shore. It had a minor
pin in Zwicks and he had gotten it out with just very minor scratches. We
got his boat ready and went back up. This is when Rob and I started getting
nervous again. This river was a lot more than Joe, Rob or I had ever seen
and our leader had just taken a very nasty swim that easily could have
turned out a lot worse considering what would have happened if he had not
made the eddy by power swimming. I then ran Squeeze play and some other
minor rapid down into the eddy above reverse 7 foot. This is where Joe and
Rob had carried their boats and Jim was waiting to show us the line on Zwick
’s. I saw Jim’s paddle was still on the rock so I paddled up and beached
myself on it. I got out and threw it to Joe who ferried it across to Jim.
We all ran reverse 7 foot fine and got out to look at Zwick’s. Jim set
safety at the bottom since his boat was already there. Joe decided to walk
since pinning looked very nasty. I peeled out and caught the staging eddy.
From there is where it went bad. I scouted correctly but when I sat in my
boat I looked at the wrong rock as a landmark. I ended up bouncing
backwards down the right side. I pinned half way down on a big whale tail
type of rock.. I was stable and upright but not going anywhere. I briefly
tried to rock my boat off but this seemed to make it vibrate and sink so I
decided to wait for help. Jim was at the bottom on the wrong side and Rob
was above. Rob nailed the ferry and came to help while Jim was paddling
over from below. This took less than a minute but for me it was longer
since the spray was blinding me and making it annoying to breath. Rob got
there with a rope and I got a good grip popped my skirt and stepped out onto
shore. My boat stayed put and I was able to reach over and clip a biner on
it and pull it out to. Jim was getting there now and he helped us pull it
out and empty it. At this point we should have reconsidered what we where
doing. We pushed on. The next several rapids I really don’t remember.
Basically we all had at least decent lines but with the margin of error that
the Green offers decent is not good enough. Up comes Gorrilla. Jim stops
us in an eddy and says see that eddy just downstream. Do NOT miss that
eddy. If there is one eddy you want to catch this is it. We all made the
eddy but Rob decided the Eddy line looked like a good place to stop and gave
us all a scare. At this level Gorrilla was not even a consideration. I
took one look at the holes above and decided I was not even reasonably
confident that I could make it to the Drop upright much less on line. We
walked it and put in just below at Scream Machine.
The next major rapid is Rapid Transit. It is a steep waterslide with water
frothing up several feet high in this beautiful white foam that when you
paddle into you basically disappear. You can not see anything just white so
you pick you r line and hold on. From the bottom it is very cool to watch
also. You see the person approach the edge and when they come over all you
see is the top of the helmet and maybe a little paddle blade until they come
shooting out the bottom. That was a cool rapid. It reminded me of Oceana
on the Tallula with the speed and power. We all had fun runs on that and
where all having a good time again.
We where boogying along when Jim said see that slot over on River left. Hit
it then catch the eddy. He led followed by Joe. I couldn’t see Jims line
but I saw Joe go over backwards so I gave him a minute to clear the hole
then followed. It was very nasty. Jim had missed the move and gone down
the wrong slot and we where following like Lemmings. I boofed high and
landed almost on top of Joe who was chocked perpendicular to the current
against Jim. The slot was to narrow for a boat to pass through straight, it
wasn’t even close when sideways. They where both upright and I landed on a
backstroke trying to figure out what to do. Joe looked up at me and said
“Scott, you really didn’t want to go here” I found it amusing but really
did not have time to laugh. I was back paddling trying to keep off of them
while they sorted themselves out. I failed and got sideways to. Then came
Rob. We now had four boats sideways in a slot to narrow for one boat to
pass through. We where all upright and OK so we where talking trying to
figure out what to do. Then it got very nasty. When Rob came in he had a
high strong boof, which really nailed my boat, and I slammed Joe who slammed
Jim. Jim’s boat went vertical and squeezed through a little more. He ended
up vertically pinned but upright at the end of the slot and Joe was upside
down and pinned on the right side of the slot. I could barely see the top
of his helmet and he did not appear to have an air pocket, this was getting
bad fast. I heard Jim yelling, “He has a pocket! He has Air” so my panic
subsided a small amount I dropped my paddle, popped my skirt and stood up in
my boat. I jumped on one of the Rocks that was pinning all of our boats.
Just as I reached down to try and grab Joes but and see how badly it was
pinned he managed to wiggle it off and slam down onto dry rock upside down.
He rolled up and I stood up. Marshall Fox was just walking down the trail
with his girlfriend and he quickly saw how nasty this was becoming. From my
vantage I could see a major horizon line but had no idea what it was and
neither did Joe, but he was running it. I dove into the eddy we where
supposed to catch and Marshall helped me out. Joe ran Groove tube without
ever having seen it before. He had a clean line and caught the eddy. While
this was happening Jim pushed himself off and followed Joe. This left my
boat pinned and Rob holding onto my boat to stay upright. I climbed back
out and found my paddle pinned where I had left it. This was a nice
surprise since I had assumed it was gone. I gave my paddle to Rob since
sometime during this commotion he had lost his paddle. He braced on the
rock while I pulled my boat out. I threw it to Marshall who was standing in
the eddy behind the rock we had pinned on. I then helped Rob onto my rock
and threw his boat to Marshall. We both swam to the eddy and scouted Groove
tube. While talking to Marshall he informed me that it was running a lot
higher than the 200% we thought. He said it was closer to 260% or 270%. He
also informed us that the next rapid was Sunshine and screwing up here was
not an option. When Joe heard that he came close to running Sunshine blind
he almost had a heart attack.
Rob and I scouted Groove Tube. I had seen Joe run it so I knew it was fairly
straightforward. It is a shallow approach to a fairly big drop with the
coolest wave I have ever seen. The lip is curled at the correct angle to
create a tube that looks exactly like the tube that you see when you watch
ocean surfers riding in the tube just before it comes crashing down on top
of them. I pushed of the rock made 3 or 4 quick strokes, angled my boat a
little left and went right down the tube. A very cool rapid. I did do a
pretty deep mystery, which concerned me with Sunshine coming up next. I
came rocketing up on a very dynamic stern squirt and went back over. It was
probably the quickest roll I have ever had. Rob followed but he was still a
little to tentative from our four car pile up (the new name of the slot that
runs Groove Tube direct). He went over with to little speed and did a deep
mystery. We where looking downstream for him and he was not coming up.
Finally I saw a glimpse of his paddle under the ledge that makes groove
tube. He did a mystery form one side of the river to the other in a Rocket.
He was under for over 30 seconds (timed on a watch) before he came out. He
had lost his paddle while in the hole. He made the wise decision to punch
immediately and not even try to hand roll considering what was about to
happen to him. He swam just above Sunshine which at this level is VERY
nasty so we where in a big hurry to get him to the side. Luckily about 2
Mark Spitz like strokes and he was in the Eddy. Joe peeled out for the boat
and quickly realized this was a mistake. He caught the eddy above Sunshine
and watched Rob’s Rocket get a thorough trashing.
We all walked Sunshine. Like Gorilla this rapid looks incredibly nasty it
is a 20 foot plus drop into a very terminal hole. If you boof right which
is the only runnable line you land it what I have heard is an eddy but I
have seen class III rapids with less flow than this eddy had. Half the flow
was going deep under the ledge and a trip here looked potentially fatal and
the other half was feeding the hole. It was not really a question when we
where deciding who was walking.
Rob had walked down the left hand shore looking for his boat and we where
paddling down some relatively calm water. His boat was about 100 yards
below Sunshine with just the last 2 feet of the nose sticking out of the
rock it was pinned in. Joe and I where able to climb down to it and
“armstrong” it out. The only damage is about 6 to 8 inches of his tail is
now a big dimple. We where feeling very lucky to have lost two boats on the
Green at this level and found both of them. We where all feeling pretty
intimidated again but Jim told us that all the really bad rapid where behind
us. Rob repacked the ropes and got his boat back together while I practiced
my stern squirts. I really needed that. The familiarity of a maneuver I am
comfortable with got me back in the right frame of mind. After a few
minutes for everyone to get themselves situated we headed further
downstream.
From here on out the ride is very cool. We all started paddling better and
having a good time again. Numerous class IV rapids that are very fun. A
lot of boofs and tight twisty slots. Probably the most enjoyable part of
the day. Towards the end there are two more class V that at this level
looked pretty nasty and we decided that the entire group should walk since
as a group we where all pretty emotionally and physically exhausted.
My summation of the trip is it was a mistake to get on the river in the
first place. We let the river play head games with us and it affected our
paddling. We where more tentative than normal and it showed. None of the
moves where above mine or anyone in my groups capabilities, they where so
close and so many of them and we got intimidated. When this happened Joe
was smart enough to walk but we all should have been. We had several very
nasty pins because only one person in the group of four had ever seen the
river. We should have waited until later in the year and caught it a much
more forgiving level. We should have also waited until we had more than 1
person who knew the river.
If you pick the rapids apart and analyze each persons run we all did fine at
running the lines. The problems occurred when we did not know the lines or
in the case of my pin I confused which rock to line up off of between
scouting the river and running the rapid. The group of paddlers I paddle
with has made huge strides this year in our boating skill. It is time for
us to step back and plateau for a while.
I will come back to this river this summer when it is at a more manageable
level and I will have a better attitude. For a while now I have been
pushing my envelope. I am steeping back for awhile and paddling within it.
I am looking forward to getting back on things like Section 4 and the Ocoee.
Rivers I know well and am comfortable on. The questions that I have to
answer for myself are when will I be happy with my skill level and what I
am running? Do I need to keep trying harder and harder rivers? I know
there are rivers being run that make the Green Narrows at 270% look like
nothing. Do I want to get on them some day? Am I happy paddling rivers
like the Overflow and the Suicide section? Why do I paddle?
I rode the edge and came very close to falling off. I was lucky and managed
to grab it on the way down. Please make sure you don’t have to try and grab
it to. Lady luck was with me this day, will she be with me next time?
Scott Bristow
JD Paddle
> The questions that I have to
>answer for myself are when will I be happy with my skill level and what I
>am running? Do I need to keep trying harder and harder rivers? I know
>there are rivers being run that make the Green Narrows at 270% look like
>nothing. Do I want to get on them some day? Am I happy paddling rivers
>like the Overflow and the Suicide section? Why do I paddle?
>
>I rode the edge and came very close to falling off. I was lucky and managed
>to grab it on the way down. Please make sure you don’t have to try and grab
>it to. Lady luck was with me this day, will she be with me next time?
>
>
Excellent story Scott. A lot of lessons to be learned. and questions we all ask
ourself which i actually think can start when you're a newby and can't do much
of anything with boat control and every class III is intimidating.
I loved reading this account and am curious to hear from others who are VERY
familiar with the Green at different levels. Any comments on some of the rapids
described at this level and the moves ( right and wrong ) that were made.
JDPa...@aol.com
Bo Eakens
Leland -
What have you locals done to Sunshine? Last time I was there at 300-400
cfs it
was a nice 10-12 foot boof. You should realy stop the river bed work as
I heard
some dude out West got sent to prison for this type of behavior. :^) -Bo
Scott Bristow wrote:
>
> OK here it is.
>
> Green Blunder?
>
<SNIP>
> We all walked Sunshine. Like Gorilla this rapid looks incredibly nasty it
> is a 20 foot plus drop into a very terminal hole. If you boof right which
<SNIP>
Leland
Scott Bristow wrote:
>
> The Green Narrows is currently a benchmark run in the Southeastern USA. Not
> to long ago it was considered hair but in the last 8 years or so it has
> become an advanced run and is no longer considered hair.
THE GREEN NARROWS IS A HAIR RUN! at 260%, or even 200%, i don't think
many people will argue the fact that the green is a hair run, not just
advanced. the fact that people run things that are harder does not mean
that the green requires any less respect!
> It is a strange
> river in that it is a very steep creek that is dam controlled. Over the
> length of the river it averages 650 vertical feet per mile. It has a lot of
> flat water so there are portions that are much steeper than that. There are
> no drops over about 20 feet so it does not get its steepness from 1 or 2
> major drops but is instead a totally continuos run.
the steepest mile of the green is around 300 - 350 feet per mile. It
averages a good bit less than this. the fact that there was around 500
- 600 cfs in it is what made it seem so steep and difficult.
> remember the names of. The next major rapid I am not sure of the name but I
> believe it is Boof or Consequences. We eddied out above and scouted because
> the next several rapids are very close. With Squeeze play, Reverse 7 foot
> and Zwick’s all in sight. Rob and Joe where watching while Jim was going to
> lead and I follow. He was on what looked like the right line and I was
> looking downstream for a signal when Rob and Joe starting running down the
> bank to get to a better position to throw Jim a rope. Jim was swimming. He
> managed to catch the eddy just above Squeeze Play but his boat and paddle
> where gone. I needed to be down at the bottom to help get Jim across the
> river so I ran the rapid. I caught an eddy just above the boof, which is
> what I believe messed Jim up. He ran direct and hit the boof to high.
did he fall over the boof rock too far left and land on the rocks? if
so, why did he swim? it's not pleasant, but landing on the rocks there
shouldn't cause a swim. i would be interested to know more about this
incident.
> From there is where it went bad. I scouted correctly but when I sat in my
> boat I looked at the wrong rock as a landmark.
if you did not take the time to determine which rock to line up on when
you were in the eddy at the top, you did not scout correctly. scouting
is more than just knowing what the line is through the rapid, it's
making sure that you can identify and hit the line as you are paddling.
> I ended up bouncing
> backwards down the right side. I pinned half way down on a big whale tail
> type of rock.. I was stable and upright but not going anywhere. I briefly
> tried to rock my boat off but this seemed to make it vibrate and sink so I
> decided to wait for help.
you were very lucky...lucky that you were on the right side slide at
all, that is. at higher levels the river _really_ wants to stuff you
left toward the log. the hole at the bottom of zwicks has changed
character with the flood in january, and is much stickier than it used
to be. pinned up on the right side is much less likely, and infinitely
luckier than a trip down the left.
> We all walked Sunshine. Like Gorilla this rapid looks incredibly nasty it
> is a 20 foot plus drop into a very terminal hole.
sunshine is about 15 feet. the "terminal hole" you were seeing is
actually water pounding onto a huge rock. at this level, it is
difficult to catch the eddy after the boof, but the extra water makes
the boof much easier to hit than at 100%. still a good call walking it
if you couldn't tell what was going on in there.
> My summation of the trip is it was a mistake to get on the river in the
> first place. We let the river play head games with us and it affected our
> paddling. We where more tentative than normal and it showed. None of the
> moves where above mine or anyone in my groups capabilities, they where so
> close and so many of them and we got intimidated. When this happened Joe
> was smart enough to walk but we all should have been. We had several very
> nasty pins because only one person in the group of four had ever seen the
> river. We should have waited until later in the year and caught it a much
> more forgiving level. We should have also waited until we had more than 1
> person who knew the river.
it sounds to me like you underestimated the river. having trouble on a
difficult river that is over your head is not a "head game", it's being
in over your head. just because you have the ability to run individual
rapids doesn't mean you have the ability to run the whole river.
although a river is made up of rapids, the whole is greater than the sum
of its parts. one of the best examples of this i know of is manns
creek. the rapids are nasty...really nasty, but doable by me. by the
time i'm in the fifth mile, though, i'm crying for mommy. consider the
example of running: i can run a mile without too much trouble. when
considering a marathon course, i am sure that i can run any mile of the
course. does this mean i can run a marathon? not even by any stretch
of the imagination!
in today's world of video rapids it's easy to lose track of the fact
that when you get there, you're running the river, not the rapids.
don't assess whether you can run each line - assess whther you can run
_all_ of the lines. listen to your instincts when you're on the site.
no cars in the lot. trouble at the first class V. more trouble at
boof. these were good clues! i've run zwick's probably 120 times, at
levels from 50% - 300+%. when i get out and look at zwick's at 200%, it
looks like something that i don't want to run! i walked it at 160 - 170
just a couple weeks ago. i know i've run it with twice as much water,
but i cannot change the fact that when i looked at it, my first
impression was, "yuck, i don't want to be in that!" i read the clues,
and made my decision based on that, not whether or not i thought (or
knew) that i could hit the line.
> I will come back to this river this summer when it is at a more manageable
> level and I will have a better attitude.
when we get a sunny summer 100%, give me a call and i'll show you a
green river that is much more manageable, and even fun! my numbers are
at the bottom of my mails.
> For a while now I have been
> pushing my envelope. I am steeping back for awhile and paddling within it.
> I am looking forward to getting back on things like Section 4 and the Ocoee.
> Rivers I know well and am comfortable on. The questions that I have to
> answer for myself are when will I be happy with my skill level and what I
> am running? Do I need to keep trying harder and harder rivers? I know
> there are rivers being run that make the Green Narrows at 270% look like
> nothing. Do I want to get on them some day? Am I happy paddling rivers
> like the Overflow and the Suicide section? Why do I paddle?
you might enjoy a read of trip kinney's master's thesis on class V
whitewater paddlers. it's available for download at:
http://www.ioa.com/home/leland/paddle
you also might want to do a deja news search for the thread "why class
V" which ran in here a year or two ago. having some other people's
reasonings to bounce off of can help you figure out reasons that you
paddle that you may not even be aware of.
> I rode the edge and came very close to falling off. I was lucky and managed
> to grab it on the way down. Please make sure you don’t have to try and grab
> it to. Lady luck was with me this day, will she be with me next time?
sounds like you learned a lot from your experience. please don't think
i'm picking on you here - your story just made an excellent framework to
point out mistakes that many of us (myself included) made as we
progressed into this sport. i'm hoping that i'm helping with your point
by offering a little bit different perspective that frames your
experience some.
stepping back and assessing is usually a good thing in paddling. i try
to do it after every run, and i find that i make better decisions
because of it. i don't have perfect judgement by any means, and i still
get in over my head, but stopping to consider every run after it is over
helps me recognize when i am in over my head and shoulder my boat before
it gets out of control. sounds like you're on your way toward that
too. i hope some other folks will read this and be able to recognize
the "clues" BEFORE they get hammered, because they might not be as lucky
as i was when i messed up, or as you were here.
thanks for your post.
--
Leland
lel...@ioa.com
http://www.ioa.com/home/leland
704-253-2725 (winter)
704-692-1123 (summer)
Leland
Bo Eakens wrote:
>
> Leland -
>
> What have you locals done to Sunshine? Last time I was there at 300-400 cfs it
> was a nice 10-12 foot boof. You should realy stop the river bed work as I heard
> some dude out West got sent to prison for this type of behavior. :^) -Bo
>
> Scott Bristow wrote:
> >
> >
> > Green Blunder?
> >
> > We all walked Sunshine. Like Gorilla this rapid looks incredibly nasty it
> > is a 20 foot plus drop into a very terminal hole. If you boof right which
yeah yeah yeah...we try to steepen the river and put in a rodeo hole,
and you purists all want to gripe at us. if you alabama boys don't like
big air and throwin' tips, you should stay out of NC and out of our
gorge. i can't believe the nerve of you guys after we went to all that
trouble to paddle a backhoe in to excavate sunshine so that everyone
would have more fun! despite the huge volume, the damned thing barely
fit in my cascade... ;-)
Scott Bristow
Leland wrote in message <351003...@ioa.com>...
>Scott Bristow wrote:
>
>>
>> The Green Narrows is currently a benchmark run in the Southeastern USA.
Not
>> to long ago it was considered hair but in the last 8 years or so it has
>> become an advanced run and is no longer considered hair.
>
>THE GREEN NARROWS IS A HAIR RUN! at 260%, or even 200%, i don't think
>many people will argue the fact that the green is a hair run, not just
>advanced. the fact that people run things that are harder does not mean
>that the green requires any less respect!
I guess it depends on who defines hair. I have no clue what others consider
hair but this was definantly hair for me.
>> It is a strange
>> river in that it is a very steep creek that is dam controlled. Over the
>> length of the river it averages 650 vertical feet per mile. It has a lot
of
>> flat water so there are portions that are much steeper than that. There
are
>> no drops over about 20 feet so it does not get its steepness from 1 or 2
>> major drops but is instead a totally continuos run.
>
>the steepest mile of the green is around 300 - 350 feet per mile. It
>averages a good bit less than this. the fact that there was around 500
>- 600 cfs in it is what made it seem so steep and difficult.
Hmmm. That is one reason I removed almost all of the height/distance
estimates. I had heard it averaged 350 feet per mile and that is what I was
saying but half way down I looked back and made the comment that whoever
told me Johnies in the Little River Canyon AL USA is 300 must be crazy
because this is a lot steeper. Jim told me it was 650 fpm. I guess I
should have found the rest of the estimates and removed them since I really
do not know.
>> remember the names of. The next major rapid I am not sure of the name
but I
>> believe it is Boof or Consequences. We eddied out above and scouted
because
>> the next several rapids are very close. With Squeeze play, Reverse 7
foot
>> and Zwick’s all in sight. Rob and Joe where watching while Jim was going
to
>> lead and I follow. He was on what looked like the right line and I was
>> looking downstream for a signal when Rob and Joe starting running down
the
>> bank to get to a better position to throw Jim a rope. Jim was swimming.
He
>> managed to catch the eddy just above Squeeze Play but his boat and paddle
>> where gone. I needed to be down at the bottom to help get Jim across the
>> river so I ran the rapid. I caught an eddy just above the boof, which is
>> what I believe messed Jim up. He ran direct and hit the boof to high.
>
>did he fall over the boof rock too far left and land on the rocks? if
>so, why did he swim? it's not pleasant, but landing on the rocks there
>shouldn't cause a swim. i would be interested to know more about this
>incident.
I did not see it since I was still in the river left eddy. I saw him peel
out and run the little slot. When he lined up for the boof he was lined up
much further left than I thought he should have been and he was angled a
little left. At the bottom he said he bounced hard on some rocks and his
knees came out. He was trying to get readjusted but decided that with the
beating he was taking it was to time consuming. He was afraid of running
Squeeze play on the wrong side. Generally I would rather be in my boat and
running a rapid late but since he knows the river better than I do I don't
know.
>> From there is where it went bad. I scouted correctly but when I sat in
my
>> boat I looked at the wrong rock as a landmark.
>
>if you did not take the time to determine which rock to line up on when
>you were in the eddy at the top, you did not scout correctly. scouting
>is more than just knowing what the line is through the rapid, it's
>making sure that you can identify and hit the line as you are paddling.
Correct.
What happened was I picked a rock with just a little water running over it
to line up on. When I got in my boat I looked right over that rock and
lined up on the next one. A mistake that should not have been made. I
address this issue in the last paragraph of this message.
>> I ended up bouncing
>> backwards down the right side. I pinned half way down on a big whale
tail
>> type of rock.. I was stable and upright but not going anywhere. I
briefly
>> tried to rock my boat off but this seemed to make it vibrate and sink so
I
>> decided to wait for help.
>
>you were very lucky...lucky that you were on the right side slide at
>all, that is. at higher levels the river _really_ wants to stuff you
>left toward the log. the hole at the bottom of zwicks has changed
>character with the flood in january, and is much stickier than it used
>to be. pinned up on the right side is much less likely, and infinitely
>luckier than a trip down the left.
The right side was nasty enough for me.... When I tried to pull my nose
around and get off myself the boat started making a funny vibration
throughout the entire hull. I decided it was much better to wait for help
and keep my skirt on.
You are right about that right side though. This is where Jim's boat was
found and that hole was very nasty. A meeting with the log looked even more
nasty.
>> We all walked Sunshine. Like Gorilla this rapid looks incredibly nasty
it
>> is a 20 foot plus drop into a very terminal hole.
>
>sunshine is about 15 feet. the "terminal hole" you were seeing is
>actually water pounding onto a huge rock. at this level, it is
>difficult to catch the eddy after the boof, but the extra water makes
>the boof much easier to hit than at 100%. still a good call walking it
>if you couldn't tell what was going on in there.
We did not spend much time scouting here. It did not take much of a look by
me to decide that I could come back another day.
A couple of questions about Sunshine. If that was just frothy spray and not
a hole then peeling out into it would be OK? My problem with the rapid was
I did not see a good escape from the eddy.
What about the undercut wall. It seems like to me that a lot of water was
running under it. How nasty is this and how likely is it to really stuff a
paddler?
<clip my post>
>it sounds to me like you underestimated the river. having trouble on a
>difficult river that is over your head is not a "head game", it's being
>in over your head. just because you have the ability to run individual
>rapids doesn't mean you have the ability to run the whole river.
>although a river is made up of rapids, the whole is greater than the sum
>of its parts. one of the best examples of this i know of is manns
>creek. the rapids are nasty...really nasty, but doable by me. by the
>time i'm in the fifth mile, though, i'm crying for mommy. consider the
>example of running: i can run a mile without too much trouble. when
>considering a marathon course, i am sure that i can run any mile of the
>course. does this mean i can run a marathon? not even by any stretch
>of the imagination!
Good point. I was coming to the same general conclusion but you stated it
much better.
>> I will come back to this river this summer when it is at a more
manageable
>> level and I will have a better attitude.
>
>when we get a sunny summer 100%, give me a call and i'll show you a
>green river that is much more manageable, and even fun! my numbers are
>at the bottom of my mails.
Thanks, I will.
>you might enjoy a read of trip kinney's master's thesis on class V
>whitewater paddlers. it's available for download at:
>http://www.ioa.com/home/leland/paddle
>
>you also might want to do a deja news search for the thread "why class
>V" which ran in here a year or two ago. having some other people's
>reasonings to bounce off of can help you figure out reasons that you
>paddle that you may not even be aware of.
I will look at both tonight.
>> I rode the edge and came very close to falling off. I was lucky and
managed
>> to grab it on the way down. Please make sure you don’t have to try and
grab
>> it to. Lady luck was with me this day, will she be with me next time?
>
>sounds like you learned a lot from your experience. please don't think
>i'm picking on you here - your story just made an excellent framework to
>point out mistakes that many of us (myself included) made as we
>progressed into this sport. i'm hoping that i'm helping with your point
>by offering a little bit different perspective that frames your
>experience some.
>
>stepping back and assessing is usually a good thing in paddling. i try
>to do it after every run, and i find that i make better decisions
>because of it. i don't have perfect judgement by any means, and i still
>get in over my head, but stopping to consider every run after it is over
>helps me recognize when i am in over my head and shoulder my boat before
>it gets out of control. sounds like you're on your way toward that
>too. i hope some other folks will read this and be able to recognize
>the "clues" BEFORE they get hammered, because they might not be as lucky
>as i was when i messed up, or as you were here.
>
I definitely learned a lot and no I did not think you where picking on me at
all. I posted this message to get comments from other paddlers on my
experience. I know I made many mistakes and through a combination of Luck
and Skill came through. Replies such as yours where exactly what I was
looking for. You have much more experience than I and especially with your
familiarity with this river I was hoping for your reply. I was planning on
mailing you a copy once I had time to find your address. Maybe some other
paddlers will learn a little from my mistakes. After all Lady luck can not
be everywhere at once.
The core problem that I have addressed is that I have advanced very rapidly
over the last 6 months. My paddling skills eclipse my knowledge and
experience. I am now to rivers that I can not afford a mental mistake and
just take a fancy correction stroke to recover. That is the reason I need
to slow down and spend some time at the level I am at. This experience and
thread has been very good for me. It is making things much clearer for me
and helping me understand what I need to do to progress in our sport.
Scott Bristow
Leland
Scott Bristow wrote:
>
> Hmmm. That is one reason I removed almost all of the height/distance
> estimates. I had heard it averaged 350 feet per mile and that is what I was
> saying but half way down I looked back and made the comment that whoever
> told me Johnies in the Little River Canyon AL USA is 300 must be crazy
> because this is a lot steeper. Jim told me it was 650 fpm. I guess I
> should have found the rest of the estimates and removed them since I really
> do not know.
i ran johnnies a month or two ago for the first time (first three times,
actually....great afternoon!). i would guess around 180 - 200 fpm, but
that's just a wild guess. there are big drops with good gradient down
there, but there are only really three big ones (the one at the putin,
the big slide, and gorilla constrictor. the rest is not very steep at
all. the drops are so big right there at gorilla that it seems the
bottom completely drops out, but the overall gradient is not that huge.
>
> The right side was nasty enough for me.... When I tried to pull my nose
> around and get off myself the boat started making a funny vibration
> throughout the entire hull. I decided it was much better to wait for help
> and keep my skirt on.
waiting for help if you are stable is usually a good call. it would be
unpleasant to tumble down that shelf into the pool, but still not
incredibly hazardous. it's better that you managed to get you and your
boat out where you did, though.
>
> A couple of questions about Sunshine. If that was just frothy spray and not
> a hole then peeling out into it would be OK? My problem with the rapid was
> I did not see a good escape from the eddy.
>
> What about the undercut wall. It seems like to me that a lot of water was
> running under it. How nasty is this and how likely is it to really stuff a
> paddler?
well, you can go under the wall with no problem. i hate it beacuse it
sucks trying to get out of there with a single bladed paddle. peeling
out is tricky from the eddy, but not too bad. it may take a few tries
(getting circulated under the wall between) to get out of the eddy.
this is sort of a plug, but you might want to get a copy of my green
river video, "Playing in the Back Yard" ($18 includes shipping). i was
trying to get as many different angles of rapids as i could in there
when i made it, so you can see things a lot better than in most vids.
it's got really good footage of people making the moves at sunshine. of
course it has the tributary lower joe creek, hand paddle and c-1 runs on
everything, the first (and only) full on swim of gorilla, and lotsa
other cool stuff as well....email me if you want one.
> The core problem that I have addressed is that I have advanced very rapidly
> over the last 6 months. My paddling skills eclipse my knowledge and
> experience. I am now to rivers that I can not afford a mental mistake and
> just take a fancy correction stroke to recover. That is the reason I need
> to slow down and spend some time at the level I am at. This experience and
> thread has been very good for me. It is making things much clearer for me
> and helping me understand what I need to do to progress in our sport.
i'd say after reading some of trip's thesis and the why V thread, you
may find that pushing the envelope of skill and danger falls lower and
lower on your list of paddling priorities. that seems to be the trend
with most highly skilled boaters who have been at it for a while.
Judy Bruckner
The Green may not be a "hair" run at normal levels for some badass
hair-boater type people, but it definitely is for everyone I know at
200+. And 200+ is definitely not a good first time level. Try it later
in the season when its 70 degrees and 100%, its much more friendly(but
still a serious run for me). I guess it just depends on how far you want
to take it. People are running ridiculously steep and difficult water
these days, but that doesn't mean to me that a creek(like the Green)
which is no longer on the "cutting edge" of difficulty is safe or easy.
And the Green drops at 350' per mile in the one mile section of the
Narrows, with the half mile section around Gorilla-sunshine dropping at
650/mile. I think that makes sense....
Josh
Steve Wilde
Scott:
Great post. Its nice to see people start to post more trip reports,
etc. Makes a nice break from the "what color racks should i get" posts.
steve
Leland
i put a reference to Trip Kinney's master's thesis in this thread, and
several people have emailed me telling me of trouble downloading it. it
was stored on UNCA's server, which seems to be in a bad way. i have
moved it somewhere else and it should work now. please let me know if
anyone has any further problems downloading it. it is still available
through:
http://www.ioa.com/home/leland/paddle
thanks,
The Paddleman
>i ran johnnies a month or two ago for the first time (first three times,
>actually....great afternoon!). i would guess around 180 - 200 fpm, but
>that's just a wild guess. there are big drops with good gradient down
>there, but there are only really three big ones (the one at the putin,
>the big slide, and gorilla constrictor. the rest is not very steep at
>all. the drops are so big right there at gorilla that it seems the
>bottom completely drops out, but the overall gradient is not that huge.
I gotta argue that one, Leland. Look at the topo map, no need to
guess. Johnnies drops almost exactly 300 feet in almost exactly one
mile. It is flatter at the end also, but I don't know what kind of
granularity is fair when deciding fpm. Johnnies is definitely 300fpm.
It shows how hard that sort of thing can be to judge on the river.
-----------------------------------------------------
The coolest of whitewater paddling video tapes at:
www.whitewatervideo.com
Paddlemania, Tales of the Paddlesnake, The Wet Ones, Drill Time!
Johny Utah, Steep Creekin', and many more!
KSTRELETZK
>Jim had missed the move and gone down
>the wrong slot and we where following like Lemmings.
Scary.
> We all started paddling better and
>having a good time again. Numerous class IV rapids that are very fun
That's a good sign.
>None of the
>moves where above mine or anyone in my groups capabilities, they where so
>close and so many of them and we got intimidated.
Ah, yes. That's the trick isn't it. To handle the river, to handle your head.
The whole is greater than the sum of its parts isn't it?
>The problems occurred when we did not know the lines or
>in the case of my pin I confused which rock to line up off of between
>scouting the river and running the rapid.
Kind of gives you an appreciation for the pioneers of our Sport who went down
the Gauley or Yok without a guide telling them - "Now go here!"
>I am looking forward to getting back on things like Section 4 and the
>Ocoee.
>Rivers I know well and am comfortable on.
Sure. You want to get your composure back, but when you do, you'll want to
explore again.
>Do I need to keep trying harder and harder rivers?
Of course not. But you will want new challenges. How bout taking up c-boating
on the Ocoee this summer. Or while El Nino is with us this Spring seeking out
personal first descents - don't have to be class4-5, don't even have to be
anything anyone else has ever heard of. I'm absolutely convinced that there's
an unexplored class 3-4 creek just waiting to be cleared of strainers and
explored by you. Nothing teaches you how to run "new" stuff other than running
"new" stuff without anyone to show you the lines.
> Why do I paddle?
Because, of course, you can't imagine living any other way. Success is a
journey, not a destination.
Hope to SYOR soon,
- Mothra (aka Kathy Streletzky)
"Perhaps it was that, then -
The fear, and dealing with that fear" - Corran Addison
josh
Leland wrote:
>
> Bo Eakens wrote:
> >
> > Leland -
> >
> > What have you locals done to Sunshine? Last time I was there at 300-400 cfs it
> > was a nice 10-12 foot boof. You should realy stop the river bed work as I heard
> > some dude out West got sent to prison for this type of behavior. :^) -Bo
> > >
> > <SNIP>
> > > We all walked Sunshine. Like Gorilla this rapid looks incredibly nasty it
> > > is a 20 foot plus drop into a very terminal hole. If you boof right which
> > <SNIP>
>
> yeah yeah yeah...we try to steepen the river and put in a rodeo hole,
> and you purists all want to gripe at us. if you alabama boys don't like
> big air and throwin' tips, you should stay out of NC and out of our
> gorge. i can't believe the nerve of you guys after we went to all that
> trouble to paddle a backhoe in to excavate sunshine so that everyone
> would have more fun! despite the huge volume, the damned thing barely
> fit in my cascade... ;-)
> --
> Leland
>
I'll tell ya what Leland did! Anyone at the race last Nov will tell you
that Leland tried to alter that rapid. He tried to break that nasty rock
that all the water pounds on with the stern of his Cascade. It didn't
work though, it just ripped his saddle out and sent his boat and himself
in opposite directions. Only sissies use dynamite, aint that right
Leland?!? :-)
jlt
Wilko van den Bergh
Scott Bristow wrote:
>
> OK here it is.
>
> Green Blunder?
>
I'm impressed, both by the difficulty of water you paddled as by the
fact that you survived. I gather from this report that you have had
similar thoughts. It's good to have you back alive and kicking to
be able to tell this story. It made me think about why I want to do
ever more difficult WW... quite scary actually.
A good trip report, especially because of the things that can be
learned from it, both by you as well as by other WW-boaters on RBP.
Thanks!
Bye,
--
Wilko van den Bergh Wi...@stack.nl
Sociology Student at the Tilburg University, The Netherlands
Whitewater Kayaker AD&D Dungeon Master
Secretary of the Eindhoven Canoe Club "De Genneper Molen"
--------------------------------------------------------------
No man is wise enough, nor good enough
to be trusted with unlimited power.
Charles Colton
--------------------------------------------------------------
Dr. Charles Pezeshki
Thanks to Scott for a great trip report and candid assessment of what
happened down there.
Shows how the paddling world has changed, though. I thought I advanced
rapidly back in '80 by paddling the Gauley at the end of my first
season. Changes in equipment and motivation have certainly changed the
rules. Kids are now going down to the N. Payette after one/two years.
The main difference is while we all thought we could get killed on the
Gauley (and certainly one can) the reality is death is way closer on the
Green for the inexperienced than on what is now recognized as a Class IV
run.
Skill in a boat does not translate to river wisdom. The best example of
someone I know who puts this into practice is Tom Long, who runs a kayak
school out here. His boy is certainly a rising star-- yet Tom kept him
off the N. Payette for two (maybe even three) years. Not because of
lack of raw physical talent-- the kid was better than me after year
two-- but because Tom perceived the lack of judgment inherent in a 14
year old.
Hair boating is a sport that one eventually must retire from,
difficulty-wise, esp. in this world of ever- raising hurdle bars. The
decision when is best made before one gets bit. Certainly it is a
personal decision as well-- and you'll have to decide when and where for
yourself. Part of this will be the result of a candid assessment of
one's abilities in comparison to those out pushing the envelope.
But pat yourself on the back-- you're wise after the event. And still
suckin' air! And remember, in Class V, you are always alone. And
that's one of the coolest things about it.
Chuck
--
Jez
Leland,
After reading Scott's excellent trip report I went to your pages to
follow the Green Narrows Virtual Tour.
http://www.ioa.com/home/leland/paddle/green.html
This is great for fleshing out Scott's description of a bad day on the
river, even if the river wasn't so nasty in the pictures (looked hard
enough to me!).
Thanks for the tour.
Jez
--
jer...@henleymc.ac.uk
Reading, England
J Golson
test
>
>
>The core problem that I have addressed is that I have advanced very rapidly
>over the last 6 months. My paddling skills eclipse my knowledge and
>experience. I am now to rivers that I can not afford a mental mistake and
>just take a fancy correction stroke to recover. That is the reason I need
>to slow down and spend some time at the level I am at. This experience and
>thread has been very good for me. It is making things much clearer for me
>and helping me understand what I need to do to progress in our sport.
>Scott Bristow
Great story Scott! Once again it seems you & I have some things in
common. Last summer I worked very hard on my skills. I ended the
summer with runs on the upper yach and upper gaully. I had great runs
on both and came home with new confidence. Then one day in january I
ran sect. 4 at 2.1. I had a terrible day. I crashed into the undercut
on river left at the bottom of 7 foot falls. result...swim. That shook
me. On down to 5 falls i was recovering and doing better. Then came
Jawbone. I peeled out to low and flipped in the seem. After getting
totally beat up I punched. When I came up the river was trying to
stuff me in the undercut on the left next to hydro rock. I managed to
escape the undercut and managed to get in the eddy on river left just
above the dog. Very shortly after that day that guy (sorry but I cant
rembember his name right now) died doing the same trick at jawbone at
only a slightly higher level. I did not mean to turn this into a
horrer story thread but to point out that skill level and experience
are not the same thing. After this I decided pretty much decided to
put an edge on the skills I have and to quit pushing so hard. There is
no substitute for experience. I may start pushing again at some point
in the future but for now I am happy where I am. I can't wait for the
Ocoee this weekend! See ya there!
Joel Meadows
Scott Bristow wrote:
> OK here it is.
>
> Green Blunder?
Sounds like you guys just got flat out worked!! This is pretty much
what I would expect to hear about a Green trip with folks who have been
paddling less that a year (correct me if it's been longer). Congrats on
your first run, but I bet you will definitely think twice next time.
But, everyone who runs Class V+ gets hammered occasionally (as shown
with your leader in this trip). Anyone who says they haven't is just
flat out lying! If you run hair all the time, eventually something will
go wrong and sketch you out for a few seconds/minutes. Thats why it is
hair boating...it is dangerous...big mistakes (sometimes little ones)
turn into big consequences.
In many cases, the bad judgement actually comes from the expert
boater/leader rather than the new boater in situations like this. If
someone has been paddling Class V for years, their perception of
difficulty and skill level becomes somewhat jaded. You just assume that
just about any boater with some skill can run certain runs. Everyone
has that friend who just started boating, and when you go paddling
somewhere difficult, you say, "Man, you could definitely run this, no
prob, just follow me...." About ten minutes into the run, you think,
"What in the world was I thinking, he/she is gonna get worked!!"
Anyway, I'm glad you guys got to run the Green, now you know the level
of hair boating....it can get out of control sometimes, mentally and
physically!! Take your time, eventually you will be running the Green
and it will seem fun and easy. But sometimes that takes years of
on-river experience. There are tons of paddlers with excellent skill
and superior confidence, but not nearly as much on-river experience,
which I believe is most important. As shown with your first run of the
incredibly difficult Green Narrows and with just about anything in life,
you learn from experience.
-Joel D.
Scott Bristow
>Sounds like you guys just got flat out worked!! This is pretty much
>what I would expect to hear about a Green trip with folks who have been
>paddling less that a year (correct me if it's been longer). Congrats on
>your first run, but I bet you will definitely think twice next time.
We have all been running at least 3 years. I believe Rob has a couple more.
This was the first year we have gotten of the Ocoee was where the one year
thing came in.
I paddled and played the Ocoee a lot for 2 years and this last year started
branching out.
Scott Bristow
Scott Bristow
I have been really pleased with this thread.
I wrote it as an explanation of what I and my group did correct and
incorrect. I think most of you got that. I was afraid this thread was
going to go the way of "I ran it higher" or "you are an idiot and deserve to
die" It has gone the way I meant and had some very good discussion on
advancement and why we do what we do.
A lot of good points have been made. I particularly appreciated Lelands
wise words but there where several others that had very good posts. One
particularly good point was raised by Leland and that was walking. I always
say that I walk what I do not feel comfortable with but I rarely do. My
tendency is to look at the line think I can hit it and screw the
consequences if I do not. I tend to be overconfident and it has helped me
get to where I am today but I have to temper that as the consequences get
worse.
A lot of what I wrote in my post should be credited to Milt Aitken
(Paddleman) . We had a very good private mail thread on Monday that helped
formulate my opinions. He sent me a scathing email before I had posted
anything to RBP. It was 100% accurate. His quote of "Luck is fickle. It
runs out with no warning." has been taken to heart.
It is nice to have a quality community like we have with RBP. I received a
lot of private mail that was very appreciated.
Mothra has been very helpful and insightful also. I was pretty disturbed
Monday by what I had done and she helped put it in perspective.
Scott Bristow
KSTRELETZK wrote in message
<199803182259...@ladder01.news.aol.com>...
>>Jim had missed the move and gone down
>>the wrong slot and we where following like Lemmings.
>
>Scary.
>
>
>> We all started paddling better and
>>having a good time again. Numerous class IV rapids that are very fun
>
>That's a good sign.
>
>
>
>>None of the
>>moves where above mine or anyone in my groups capabilities, they where so
>>close and so many of them and we got intimidated.
>
>Ah, yes. That's the trick isn't it. To handle the river, to handle your
head.
> The whole is greater than the sum of its parts isn't it?
>
>
>>The problems occurred when we did not know the lines or
>>in the case of my pin I confused which rock to line up off of between
>>scouting the river and running the rapid.
>
>Kind of gives you an appreciation for the pioneers of our Sport who went
down
>the Gauley or Yok without a guide telling them - "Now go here!"
>
>>I am looking forward to getting back on things like Section 4 and the
>>Ocoee.
>>Rivers I know well and am comfortable on.
>
>Sure. You want to get your composure back, but when you do, you'll want to
>explore again.
>
>>Do I need to keep trying harder and harder rivers?
>
Chris Bell
In article <351003...@ioa.com>, Leland <lel...@ioa.com> wrote:
>Scott Bristow wrote:
Scott -- yours was the single most entertaining trip report I have ever
had the pleasure of reading. Thankfully the ending was happy. You
packed a lot of learning into one day. Lesson #1: paddling something
because it is a "benchmark" and because you are there is generally not
a good idea.
Leland -- your comments as always were right on and a pleasure to read.
Out of curiosity I sat down last night with a topo map and a pair of
dividers. Here's what I learned (assuming the topo is reasonably
accurate . . .):
The Narrows run from the put-in just above the mouth of the Big
Hungry River to the take-out at Fishtop is 2.775 miles long. Over
that length the Green falls 490 feet. This works out to 177 fpm.
It is .7 mile from the put-in to Bride of Frankenstein (the first
major drop). The steepest continuous mile starts here. The river
falls 330 feet over this mile. At its steepest, the river falls at
the rate of 600 fpm. It does this over a portion 1/6 of a mile
long. It is .55 mile from Bride of Frankenstein to just below
Sunshine. The river falls 230 feet over this distance; this works
out to 418 fpm. Excluding the steepest 1/6 mile, the steepest
mile of the Narrows falls at 192 fpm.
By way of contrast, the Chimneys Section of the WP of the LP
averages 400 fpm over 2.5 miles; it falls 460 feet in its steepest
continuous mile; 1/20 of this mile falls at 730 fpm. The more
commonly run Sugarlands section below averages 309 fpm over 3.5
miles; its steepest continuous mile falls 360 feet. Like the
Green, everything on both sections of the WP can be run, log jams
permitting.
Got to go, my baby's calling . . .
-- Chris
Leland
josh wrote:
>
> Leland wrote:
> >
> > yeah yeah yeah...we try to steepen the river and put in a rodeo hole,
> > and you purists all want to gripe at us. if you alabama boys don't like
> > big air and throwin' tips, you should stay out of NC and out of our
> > gorge. i can't believe the nerve of you guys after we went to all that
> > trouble to paddle a backhoe in to excavate sunshine so that everyone
> > would have more fun! despite the huge volume, the damned thing barely
> > fit in my cascade... ;-)
> > --
> > Leland
> >
> I'll tell ya what Leland did! Anyone at the race last Nov will tell you
> that Leland tried to alter that rapid. He tried to break that nasty rock
> that all the water pounds on with the stern of his Cascade. It didn't
> work though, it just ripped his saddle out and sent his boat and himself
> in opposite directions. Only sissies use dynamite, aint that right
> Leland?!? :-)
>
> jlt
you caught me!! anyone else deciding to attempt to alter this rock with
their boat should bear in mind that the cascade stern works much better
than the creek 280 stern or the RPM bow....for me, anyway!
ema...@buncombe.main.nc.us
In article <6eps9l$bpo...@econ.unca.edu>,
be...@unca.edu (Chris Bell) wrote:
>
> In article <351003...@ioa.com>, Leland <lel...@ioa.com> wrote:
> >Scott Bristow wrote:
>
> Scott -- yours was the single most entertaining trip report I have ever
> had the pleasure of reading. Thankfully the ending was happy. You
> packed a lot of learning into one day. Lesson #1: paddling something
> because it is a "benchmark" and because you are there is generally not
> a good idea.
>
> Leland -- your comments as always were right on and a pleasure to read.
> Out of curiosity I sat down last night with a topo map and a pair of
> dividers. Here's what I learned (assuming the topo is reasonably
> accurate . . .):
>
Etc.
While riding my bike this evening I had occasion to think about Scott's
post again. One of the most entertaining and potentially informative parts
concerned the four-boat pile-up above Groove Tube. A couple reflections.
1. The first cardinal rule of creek boating is: Never paddle out of an
eddy without a clear view of an unobstructed route to the next eddy.
Violate this rule and very bad things can happen . . . a friend of mine
came close to dying on the Big South Fork of the Poudre when he
rounded an eddy-less corner and had to play "let's make a deal."
He choose slot #2, which turned out to be blocked by a log. A
matter of inches and he would have been dead instead of requiring
a trip to the hospital (at the end of a very long day) to stitch up the
gash left in his face when he and his boat squeezed under the
obstruction. RBP regulars should know better after reading the
descriptions of the pile-ups at the bottom of Bridal Veil in Tallulah
Gorge last fall.
2. Collalary to cardinal rule number one: if you are on a new run
or on a run after an event that may have put lumber in the drops,
never paddle out of an eddy without a signal from a boater ahead
of you that the drop is clean. RBP regulars know that a significant
number of trees were broken by a heavy snowstorm that raged
up the Appalachian Mountains in early February. A log washed
or moved during this storm killed one of the world's finest boaters
less than a month before Scott's run on a river maybe 20 miles as
the crow flies from the Green. Though Scott's Really Excellent
Adventure Above Groove Tube didn't involve a log, the jam-up
occured in a place I have pulled logs from in the past. With the
Green running unusually high just a month after a tree-breaking
storm, following one-after-another through a blind slot without
knowledge that each member of the party had made it safely
through was a mistake I seriously doubt Scott will make again.
3. If you are so dependent on someone else to get you down a
river that you feel the need to follow closely enough to them
that you've left no margin for error, you probably don't belong
on the river. Though I see people almost every time I boat
who -- judging by their actions -- must disagree with me, I
believe that a person isn't "ready" for a river unless they can
pick their own quality lines down it.
Scott has provided a great service with his post. It was entertaining,
it was informative, and his willingness to describe a misadventure of
which he was a part took a whole lot more courage than putting on
the Green last Sunday. Thanks Scott.
-- Chris
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
Bo Eakens
Over many years I have listened to people blame others for accidents and
deaths on the river and a lot of times it is usually the most
experienced (living) that takes the blame. Usually this person just
considered himself one of the trip members. He was as nervous as anyone
else, but still just there for a nice day on the river, looking out for
himself but ready to help if someone got in trouble.
A lot of times these people are simply at the put-in or take-out and
someone comes up and asks if they can tag along because they are either
alone or do not know the run. I have developed a complete asshole
attitude over the years and have no problem getting rid of someone I
don't know, but a lot of really good boaters haven't achieved this
attitude and the next thing you know they have become a trip leader in
someones mind without even knowing it themselves.
When you run class 5, or even class 1 or 2 for that matter, you are
responsible for yourself, completely. You make your own decisions about
what to run and what to walk and shouldn't let anyone influence you.
Peer pressure should be left at home, as I see a lot of this with the
younger boaters. The best thing you can do is know the people you are
with and know you can depend on them to be safety conscious. Even better
is to know the folks you paddle with will put their butts on the line if
it becomes necessary. Your responsibility to them should be the same
plus you should always remember to stay safe so these folks will not
have to endanger themselves because you became a little reckless.
If you always scout every rapid and see the lines yourself before
entering and
make all your own decisions about the rapid and the line you should
never have to blame anyone when problems arise. If boat scouting isn't
good enough and you can't see the next eddy get out and stretch those
legs and know what your getting into. Know what paddle signals mean.
Carry a rope (whistles are nice too) and stay close enough to the group
so you can help someone fast or be helped. Take the time to get out and
set ropes where pinning etc might happen, it'll also allow you the time
to get a good picture of the entire rapid in your mind and it's always
good to have an alternate route (or charc) if it becomes necessay.
We have lost an Olympian, two World Class rodeo boaters and several
other good boaters in the last couple of years to boating accidents, so
let's all take responsibility for what we do and not blame someone else
when things go bad.
I've rambled enough, time to go boating. Be careful out there -Bo
Joel Meadows wrote:
>
> Scott Bristow wrote:
>
> > OK here it is.
> >
> > Green Blunder?
<SNIP>
>
>
> In many cases, the bad judgement actually comes from the expert
> boater/leader rather than the new boater in situations like this. If
> someone has been paddling Class V for years, their perception of
> difficulty and skill level becomes somewhat jaded. You just assume that
> just about any boater with some skill can run certain runs. Everyone
> has that friend who just started boating, and when you go paddling
> somewhere difficult, you say, "Man, you could definitely run this, no
> prob, just follow me...." About ten minutes into the run, you think,
> "What in the world was I thinking, he/she is gonna get worked!!"
<SNIP>
The Paddleman
Thank you, Chris, for taking the time to find actual facts about
gradient rather than guessing.
I'm weary of hearing about 45 or 50 foot falls that, when measured
turn out to be 34 feet. I speak specifically of Little River Canyon
Falls, but also generally about all big drops, maybe little ones, too.
I've run the Green 3 times in my open boat so far, and that is one
steep mother!
But it's nice to have real numbers to know just how steep it is.
Nice thread, Scott! Great story, too.
Bo Eakens
We measured the LR Falls at HWY 35 bridge years ago. We used a rope and then
put the tape to it. Got 29 Feet out in the center. So I call it a 30 footer
if you go off the center or right lines. The left is a double drop with 13'
and 15', approximately of course. You can't always trust topos as they are to
generalized to be exact. You would need the real DTED data to get correct
gradients etc, or a damn good altimeter. -Bo
The Paddleman <padd...@whitewatervideo.com> wrote:
: Thank you, Chris, for taking the time to find actual facts about
bad...@hotmail.com
> 1. The first cardinal rule of creek boating is: Never paddle out of an
> eddy without a clear view of an unobstructed route to the next eddy.
> Violate this rule and very bad things can happen . . . a friend of mine
> came close to dying on the Big South Fork of the Poudre when he
> rounded an eddy-less corner and had to play "let's make a deal."
> He choose slot #2, which turned out to be blocked by a log. A
> matter of inches and he would have been dead instead of requiring
> a trip to the hospital (at the end of a very long day) to stitch up the
> gash left in his face when he and his boat squeezed under the
> obstruction. RBP regulars should know better after reading the
> descriptions of the pile-ups at the bottom of Bridal Veil in Tallulah
> Gorge last fall.
Ok, I'm probably being a little anal here, but, there are plenty of
creeks that I have paddled where all that you can see is a horizon line.
On the first four drops of the lower cullasaja there are no eddies to be
seen from the cockpit, just treetops below the horizon.
A more accurate statement might be that you should not charge blindly
over the horizon until You have seen whats on the other side. Scouting is
good, and more people should probably do it. Still it is good fun to
charge like lemming down a stream that you think you know. But personaly
I'm not one to probe a blind ledge.
> 3. If you are so dependent on someone else to get you down a
> river that you feel the need to follow closely enough to them
> that you've left no margin for error, you probably don't belong
> on the river. Though I see people almost every time I boat
> who -- judging by their actions -- must disagree with me, I
> believe that a person isn't "ready" for a river unless they can
> pick their own quality lines down it.
How many creek boaters have been with a bud who knows a
stream that is new to You, with two boats in a one boat eddy, and your bud
is telling you boof right into the next eddy behind the big rock (after at
least one person in the group has checked to make sure the drop is clean).
This is when it is good to know the boaters you are with and know thier
abilities. If you are confidant of the groups skill, then the group
should be able to move downstream OK. The green at 200% or higher is
probably not a good place to try this for most people. But an
extremely good group of boaters could probably pull it off.
Dependant is probably the key word. Depending on direction to keep you
out of trouble is not bad. Depending on thier skill to rub off on you
to get you donwstream could lead to a bad day.
br.
The Paddleman
That's interesting.
We measured it with a rope also. We only measured the left side where
the double drop is. We got 34 feet. We had a 25 foot tape measure.
You're right about the topos when it comes to single drops. They're
only good over some larger distance & drop.
Maybe I'll measure it again next time I'm there.
Or could it have grown over the years? Reputations sometimes do.
Joel Meadows
Bo Eakens wrote:
> ] I have developed a complete asshole attitude over the years and have
> no problem getting rid of someone I don't know, but a lot of really
> good boaters haven't achieved this attitude and the next thing you
> know they have become a trip leader in
> someones mind without even knowing it themselves.
Great point....this is so true. It is hard for most boaters to say "No
Way!" when you arrive at the putin and there are one or two folks there
who you don't know and don't know the river and want to tag along. It's
like you suddenly get this feeling of, "My nice relaxing day on the
river with my buds could be ruined, but I don't want to be a dick!" I
have trouble using the asshole attitude, but sometimes you just have to
say, "Sorry, no offense, but we don't know you and don't feel
comfortable leading you down this river" If you say come on, let's go,
then most of the time you instictively pay more attention to their
paddling, which could throw you off your own lines and cause more
trouble in the long run, etc. I've been on both ends of this one....you
can definitely see the extra tension immediately added for both parties
involved, which is the beginning of a downward spiral.
-Joel D.
The Paddleman
You make an important point.
I have very little trouble putting forth the asshole attitude when
needed. Some of my friends have told me it comes very naturally to
me! I have also led many people down various levels of river.
But really, I feel it's important to turn down people sometimes
because I feel the leader of the trip shares some responsibility for
the followers welfare. But, consider a more extreme example:
What if a leader offered to take someone down a heinous run and
perhaps even talks it up, then leads someone who wasn't qualified down
a run beyond their skill level with the river at a level that tests
the limits of the leader's abilities? Shouldn't we expect this leader
(and ourselves) to exercise judgement and provide direction and clear
information to prevent the followers from getting in over their heads?
Be the asshole when necessary, because you are, and will feel,
responsible if you act cavalier and someone you're leading gets hurt
or killed on a run that is over their heads.
I suggest that the Green at 270% is over most peoples heads and,
unless one knows someones skills well, it would be imprudent to lead
anyone down a river of that magnitude.
Now, how am I going to find someone to lead me down the Bear?
TMorin9160
Bo Eakens wrote:
>I have developed a complete asshole
>attitude over the years and have no problem getting rid of someone I
>don't know, but a lot of really good boaters haven't achieved this
>attitude
padd...@whitewatervideo.com wrote:
>Be the asshole when necessary, because you are, and will feel,
>responsible if you act cavalier and someone you're leading gets hurt
>or killed on a run that is over their heads.
No need to be an "asshole!"
I've been on both sides of the coin as well and rely on the fact that I can
find fellow boaters to join up with when my travels take me outside of my
normal circle of friends. On the same token, I take responsibility for my
actions and would never ask an unknown group to take me down something where I
have the slightest reservations regarding my own ability. I have no desire to
be a liability to a group of unknowns. We all should take responsibilty and
display a sense of honesty regarding our abiltiy.
When faced with a stranger approaching your group why be an "asshole?" Why not
be honest with yourself regarding your own ability to lead someone unfamiliar
down the river. Ask some questions to find out if the person approaching you
has the required ability. Explain why you don't feel comfortable having that
person join your group in a civil manner. Afterall, won't you feel like an
asshole when they decide to scout the river and end up hauling you out above
the killer falls after you've been a complete "asshole" at the put-in.
I really hope I don't run into a bunch of "assholes" at putins this season.
Some of my closest friends were strangers at various rivers over the years and
I hope to continue this method of making friends.
Great story Scott!
Todd Morin
Bo Eakens
I don't think either of us meant "asshole" literally, but I'm sure a few
folks have thought so. I have taken a lot of people down rivers and have
found some
do overestimate their abilities. If I'm going down something I'm a
little
nervous about I have the right to say "no" if unsure of someone. I
usually just say our group is already too large, or something to that
effect.
I was really trying to address the point of blaming others when problems
arise on the river and to point out that we all need to be responsible
for ourselves
on the river. Was NOT trying to instruct in the art of being an
"asshole". My suggestion to you is to not take everything so literally
when you read posts in newsgroups. I used the word "asshole" because I
usually feel a little sorry about refusing someone, but know I can feel
a lot worse later if things go bad. -Bo
Scott Bristow
The way this thread started it may have appeared that I blamed my trip
leader or that we did not know each other.
I do not, we all made mistakes.
We have paddled together several times before and where aware of each others
capabilities.
I do agree that sometimes it is time to be the "bad guy" (seems better than
asshole) and not take someone on a trip or reschedule a trip because some
members are questionable or unknown.
There is one guy who came up to our group at the Suicide put in and was
talking about how well he knew the area and how many times he had run
Johnies, Suicide and all the other runs in the area. He was looking for
someone to shuttle and hook up with. I felt it a little strange when Rob
went nuts trying to avoid taking him and started with weak excuses then
finally a NO. I asked him why and he said that this guy can talk the talk
but he had paddled with him on a classIII run a few weeks before and he
talked the same talk but after the run and multiple swims admitted to never
having attempted a roll before.
Scott Bristow
Bo Eakens wrote in message <35165F...@NOSPAMingr.com>...
The Paddleman
On Mon, 23 Mar 1998 07:13:32 -0600, Bo Eakens
<jrea...@NOSPAMingr.com> wrote:
Thanks Bo.
I feel like an "asshole" when I turn someone down. It doesn't mean
that I do it in an assholish manner.
>I don't think either of us meant "asshole" literally, but I'm sure a few
>folks have thought so. I have taken a lot of people down rivers and have
>found some
>do overestimate their abilities. If I'm going down something I'm a
>little
>nervous about I have the right to say "no" if unsure of someone. I
>usually just say our group is already too large, or something to that
>effect.
>
>I was really trying to address the point of blaming others when problems
>arise on the river and to point out that we all need to be responsible
>for ourselves
>on the river. Was NOT trying to instruct in the art of being an
>"asshole". My suggestion to you is to not take everything so literally
>when you read posts in newsgroups. I used the word "asshole" because I
>usually feel a little sorry about refusing someone, but know I can feel
>a lot worse later if things go bad. -Bo
-----------------------------------------------------
Dennis Pratt
If I don't feel comfortable with the person leading or with the person
wanting to join up with me or my group and I express my concern it
should be discussed and a mutual decision arrived at. Under no
cercumstances let anyone bully or force you in any way to accept a
situation you feel uncomfortable with. I they get bent out of shape it
only confirms your first instinct. If my abilities are in question
please speak up I don't want to get hurt or hurt anyone else. You do
me the biggest favour if you tell me I'm out of my leauge and I should
carry arround. After all I can always come back after I get more
experience.
Dennis
On Mon, 23 Mar 1998 07:13:32 -0600, Bo Eakens
<jrea...@NOSPAMingr.com> wrote:
>I don't think either of us meant "asshole" literally, but I'm sure a few
>folks have thought so. I have taken a lot of people down rivers and have
>found some
>do overestimate their abilities. If I'm going down something I'm a
>little
>nervous about I have the right to say "no" if unsure of someone. I
>usually just say our group is already too large, or something to that
>effect.
>
>I was really trying to address the point of blaming others when problems
>arise on the river and to point out that we all need to be responsible
>for ourselves
>on the river. Was NOT trying to instruct in the art of being an
>"asshole". My suggestion to you is to not take everything so literally
>when you read posts in newsgroups. I used the word "asshole" because I
>usually feel a little sorry about refusing someone, but know I can feel
>a lot worse later if things go bad. -Bo
>
>
>TMorin9160 wrote:
>>
>> Bo Eakens wrote:
>>
>> >I have developed a complete asshole
>> >attitude over the years and have no problem getting rid of someone I
>> >don't know, but a lot of really good boaters haven't achieved this
>> >attitude
>>
>> padd...@whitewatervideo.com wrote:
>>
>> >Be the asshole when necessary, because you are, and will feel,
>> >responsible if you act cavalier and someone you're leading gets hurt
>> >or killed on a run that is over their heads.
>>
>> No need to be an "asshole!"
>>
>> I've been on both sides of the coin as well and rely on the fact that I can
>> find fellow boaters to join up with when my travels take me outside of my
>> normal circle of friends. On the same token, I take responsibility for my
>> actions and would never ask an unknown group to take me down something where I
>> have the slightest reservations regarding my own ability. I have no desire to
>> be a liability to a group of unknowns. We all should take responsibilty and
>> display a sense of honesty regarding our abiltiy.
>>
>> When faced with a stranger approaching your group why be an "asshole?" Why not
>> be honest with yourself regarding your own ability to lead someone unfamiliar
>> down the river. Ask some questions to find out if the person approaching you
>> has the required ability. Explain why you don't feel comfortable having that
>> person join your group in a civil manner. Afterall, won't you feel like an