Brno 1850
rumr...@indy.tce.com
My ancestors emigrated from Ivancice (near Brno) about 1850-1880.
Most documents indicate this was Moravia, but some say Austria.
What was the border situation at that time with Austria?
I also wonder about my family name (Rumreich) - it seems more German than Czech, although I know that my ancestors considered themselves Czech. (They were born in Ivancice, and their ancestors in Nemcice.)
Would there have been some good reason to Germanicize one's name at that time?
Thank you for any information.
Mark Rumreich
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Peter J. Vanatko
In <8405635...@dejanews.com> rumr...@indy.tce.com writes:
>
>My ancestors emigrated from Ivancice (near Brno) about 1850-1880.
>Most documents indicate this was Moravia, but some say Austria.
>
>What was the border situation at that time with Austria?
>
>I also wonder about my family name (Rumreich) - it seems more German
than Czech, although I know that my ancestors considered themselves
Czech. (They were born in Ivancice, and their ancestors in Nemcice.)
>
>Would there have been some good reason to Germanicize one's name at
that time?
>
>Thank you for any information.
>
>Mark Rumreich
>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>This article was posted to Usenet via the Posting Service at Deja
News:
> http://www.dejanews.com/ [Search, Post, and Read Usenet
News!]
The territory was and is Moravia. At that time it was part of the
Austrian-Hungarian Monarchy, a leftover of the Austrian Empire.
Your name is German and means "famous", the spelling was adjusted to
suit Czech pronounciation. The German original was "Ruhmreich".
I hope that does it, Peter
Karl Pollak
jav...@ix.netcom.com(Peter J. Vanatko) wrote:
>Your name is German and means "famous", the spelling was adjusted to
>suit Czech pronounciation. The German original was "Ruhmreich".
> I hope that does it, Peter
How do you know it was not originally "Rhumreich" ??
Karl Pollak
Richmond, British Columbia
Paul J Z Kriha
In article <4vdfh2$k...@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>, jav...@ix.netcom.com(Peter J. Vanatko)
wrote:
>In <8405635...@dejanews.com> rumr...@indy.tce.com writes:
>>
>>My ancestors emigrated from Ivancice (near Brno) about 1850-1880.
>>Most documents indicate this was Moravia, but some say Austria.
>>
>>What was the border situation at that time with Austria?
>>
>>I also wonder about my family name (Rumreich) - it seems more German
>than Czech, although I know that my ancestors considered themselves
>Czech. (They were born in Ivancice, and their ancestors in Nemcice.)
>>
>>Would there have been some good reason to Germanicize one's name at
>that time?
>>
>>Thank you for any information.
>>
>>Mark Rumreich
>>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>>This article was posted to Usenet via the Posting Service at Deja
>News:
>> http://www.dejanews.com/ [Search, Post, and Read Usenet
>News!]
>
>The territory was and is Moravia. At that time it was part of the
>Austrian-Hungarian Monarchy, a leftover of the Austrian Empire.
>suit Czech pronounciation. The German original was "Ruhmreich".
> I hope that does it, Peter
The above is quite correct. Just aside, on a tangent...
A while ago I was trying to decipher a pun made by the Old Bard
of people in Rome having a lot of room. Apparently, in
Elizabethan English Rome was pronounced room and sometimes
even written Rum. Must have been funny then, I am sure.
For you all non-Turkish-speakers, did you know (while flying
off on another tangent) that the Turks call Greek immigrants
from Greece Rums, pronounced rooms. Well, once-upon-a-time
they _did_ come from 'Rome'. Greeks not from Greece are
called something else, I can't recall what, it was some
tongue twisting turkish word.
Isn't this just amazing!
Paul JK.
PS.
I wonder what they call a modern Greek immigrant from Rome
if not Rum.
Hm. And what do they call an Italian immigrant from Rome.
Hey! Anybody speaks Turkish over'ere?
-- _
Planets appear to move slowly; Trees, in the winter, are bare; \__O_
Demons possess more than toasters; Socks behave strangely in dryers. (;)\
---- These are all things I believe in ---- _/ \_
Pavel Dvorak
(rumr...@indy.tce.com) writes:
> My ancestors emigrated from Ivancice (near Brno) about 1850-1880.
> Most documents indicate this was Moravia, but some say Austria.
>
> What was the border situation at that time with Austria?
>
> I also wonder about my family name (Rumreich) - it seems more German than Czech, although I know that my ancestors considered themselves Czech. (They were born in Ivancice, and their ancestors in Nemcice.)
>
> Would there have been some good reason to Germanicize one's name at that time?
>
> Thank you for any information.
>
> Mark Rumreich
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> This article was posted to Usenet via the Posting Service at Deja News:
> http://www.dejanews.com/ [Search, Post, and Read Usenet News!]
People changed their names for all kind of reasons, but in your case, I
would suspect that simply one of your male ancestors was German. The name
really does not tell much in central Europe. Just before the WWII,
professor Velenovsky in response to pure race theories stated: We are all
mongrels (vsichni jsme vorisci). It would be difficult to find someone
there who has not a drop of blood from another nation somewhere in his
ancestry.
Pavel Dvorak (1/4 to 3/8 - not exactly sure - German)
Karl Pollak
rumr...@indy.tce.com wrote:
>My ancestors emigrated from Ivancice (near Brno) about 1850-1880.
>Most documents indicate this was Moravia, but some say Austria.
>What was the border situation at that time with Austria?
Both were correct. Ivancice and Brno belonged to the province of
Moravia, a part of the Bohemian Kingdom, which in turn was a part of
the Austro-Hungarian Empire from 1620 to 1918.
The border between Moravia and Lower Austria lies about 35km due south
of Ivancice on the river Dyje (Thaya), at the town of Laa a.d. Thaya
where it has been since the first maps of the region were drawn.
The map of the region I have, (copy of 1790 edition) shows Ivancice as
Eybenschitz and Nemcice (surprisingly) as Nemschitz (one would have
expected Deutschdorf) Despite its proximity to Brno (Bruenn),
Ivancice fell administratively into the County of Znojmo (Znaim).
>I also wonder about my family name (Rumreich) - it seems more German than Czech, although I know that my ancestors considered themselves Czech. (They were born in Ivancice, and their ancestors in Nemcice.)
>Would there have been some good reason to Germanicize one's name at that time?
Yes, there would. German was an official language. There were a lot
of intermarriages between the Moravians and Austrians. Consequently,
German family names are still not uncommon. Many young Moravians from
that region would go to Austria, particularly the region in and around
Vienna to look for work.
In addition, some people changed their family names to make them sound
more German, especially if they were working (or hoping to) in
government service.
Similarly, after 1945 when anything German became definitely out of
fashion, many families, voluntarily or not, had their names changed to
sound more Czech.
Before 1945, about 40% of the population of Brno considered German as
its first language. After the forced removal of German/Austrian
nationals from Czechoslovakia, that number dropped to less than 4%.
Hope this helps.
Peter J. Vanatko
In <4vfmum$1...@thoth.portal.ca> kpo...@portal.ca (Karl Pollak) writes:
>
>jav...@ix.netcom.com(Peter J. Vanatko) wrote:
>
>>Your name is German and means "famous", the spelling was adjusted to
>>suit Czech pronounciation. The German original was "Ruhmreich".
>> I hope that does it, Peter
>
>How do you know it was not originally "Rhumreich" ??
>
>
>Karl Pollak
>Richmond, British Columbia
Because it obviously originated among Czechs and not Germans. Count the
hints: It is seriously misspelled whether a noun, a name, or an
adjective. It is misspelled the way a Czech (or a Moravian, pardon me),
would misspell it. The people in question lived among Czechs, on a
Czech territory. The poster told us they said they were Czech. There
was a tendency to germanize to suit the official language, and other
reasons as well. "Ruhmreich" is a natural choice; a frequent word in
German, and expresses a common meaning. Many a Czech would have been
aware of that. The choice of this name gives us "Slav-" as a clue.
(Amazing, isn't it? 8-)#). Among Germans, Rhumreich or even Ruhmreich
would be pretty unusual names. We can assume that the meaning of
"rumreich" is meant to be "ruhmreich", because it looks so much like
it. And would you expect someone who does not know how to spell
"ruhmreich" as an adjective to use "Rhumreich" as a name?
But of course anything is possible and I am not a German etymology
expert. I merely wanted to convey the proof to the poster, that his
name is of German origin, which would not be necessary to explain to
Czech or German speakers.
None of us really knows the original meaning or spelling of our names,
only those who gave them, let they rest in peace. Similarly, anything
we say here can be challenged. Out of CZ, we know even historical facts
can be worked over, and we didn't even ask the Chinese yet. We only
express our best opinions and there is no need for boring disclaimers.
It is good for keeping the debate going. Well, thanks for listening to
this fillibuster. Sometimes being a cosmopolitan is a curse. I am outa
here, 8-)#.
Helping and being helped, Peter, der beruhmter Fanatiker
(puns intended)
>
Karl Pollak
jav...@ix.netcom.com(Peter J. Vanatko) wrote:
>Because it obviously originated among Czechs and not Germans.
>(Amazing, isn't it? 8-)#). Among Germans, Rhumreich or even Ruhmreich
>would be pretty unusual names. We can assume that the meaning of
>"rumreich" is meant to be "ruhmreich", because it looks so much like
>it. And would you expect someone who does not know how to spell
>"ruhmreich" as an adjective to use "Rhumreich" as a name?
Lighten up Peter, I was just making a joke, for pete's sakes .. sheesh
Paul J Z Kriha
Well, there is still a possibility that Rumreich was actually
the correct original spelling. 'Rum' used to mean Rome.
'Rumreich' would not be an unexpected name given to
somebody who immigrated from the 'South', would it.
Paul JK.
--
I'm always right. Even when I'm wrong.
How can that be? It's a miracle!
Paul J Z Kriha
In article <4vq40q$3...@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com>, jav...@ix.netcom.com(Peter J. Vanatko)
wrote:
>In <4vfmum$1...@thoth.portal.ca> kpo...@portal.ca (Karl Pollak) writes:
>
>>
>>jav...@ix.netcom.com(Peter J. Vanatko) wrote:
>>
>>>Your name is German and means "famous", the spelling was adjusted to
>>>suit Czech pronounciation. The German original was "Ruhmreich".
>>> I hope that does it, Peter
>>
>>How do you know it was not originally "Rhumreich" ??
>>
>>
>>Richmond, British Columbia
>
>hints: It is seriously misspelled whether a noun, a name, or an
>adjective. It is misspelled the way a Czech (or a Moravian, pardon me),
>would misspell it. The people in question lived among Czechs, on a
>Czech territory. The poster told us they said they were Czech. There
>was a tendency to germanize to suit the official language, and other
>reasons as well. "Ruhmreich" is a natural choice; a frequent word in
>German, and expresses a common meaning. Many a Czech would have been
>aware of that. The choice of this name gives us "Slav-" as a clue.
>would be pretty unusual names.
>We can assume that the meaning of
>"rumreich" is meant to be "ruhmreich", because it looks so much like
>it.
Not only you 'can', you 'have to', since you have already decided
how the name was misspelled and how it originated. :-)
>And would you expect someone who does not know how to spell
>"ruhmreich" as an adjective to use "Rhumreich" as a name?
>But of course anything is possible and I am not a German etymology
>expert. I merely wanted to convey the proof to the poster, that his
>name is of German origin, which would not be necessary to explain to
>Czech or German speakers.
>None of us really knows the original meaning or spelling of our names,
Who is 'us' then? I am happy to say that even though my name
is one of the trickier ones I do know the original meaning
of it and variations in spelling I can check by reading
relevant documents from an appropriate century.
You don't think that we all are like the children in the Ozie joke
about the people without pedigrees? You know the ones who did
not know who their fathers were. :-)
>only those who gave them, let they rest in peace. Similarly, anything
>we say here can be challenged. Out of CZ, we know even historical facts
>can be worked over, and we didn't even ask the Chinese yet. We only
>express our best opinions and there is no need for boring disclaimers.
>It is good for keeping the debate going. Well, thanks for listening to
>this fillibuster. Sometimes being a cosmopolitan is a curse. I am outa
>here, 8-)#.
> Helping and being helped, Peter, der beruhmter Fanatiker
> (puns intended)
Good on you all Peters,
_WE_ also fill our idle time by scribbling this, that, and
the other.
Many cheers from us all Pauls.
Peter J. Vanatko
In <500n8p$1mg...@actrix.gen.nz> kri...@actrix.gen.nz (Paul J Z
Ha,ha,ha. Well put, but you are just a lucky cat, like me. Nobody calls
Vaclav a Vanatko any more, yet the name stubbornly persists. But how do
I know, after a thousand years, that this was indeed the exact
original? Or better yet, how do you know about your name? How far back
does it go? Don't hold back, it is interesting and it does belong here.
It would be logical to assume that as the language changes, so do the
names. Especially in the mostly spoken language of the past.
Peter, scribbling, and 8-)))#
Peter J. Vanatko
In <4vuhth$1g0...@actrix.gen.nz> kri...@actrix.gen.nz (Paul J Z
Kriha) writes:
>
>In article <4vrlab$q...@thoth.portal.ca>, kpo...@portal.ca (Karl
Pollak) wrote:
>>jav...@ix.netcom.com(Peter J. Vanatko) wrote:
>>
>>
Ruhmreich
>>>would be pretty unusual names. We can assume that the meaning of
>>>"rumreich" is meant to be "ruhmreich", because it looks so much like
>>>"ruhmreich" as an adjective to use "Rhumreich" as a name?
>>
sheesh
>>
>>Richmond, British Columbia
>>
>
>the correct original spelling. 'Rum' used to mean Rome.
>'Rumreich' would not be an unexpected name given to
>somebody who immigrated from the 'South', would it.
Certainly, but instead of abbreviating, Germans like to consolidate. In
your case wouldn't it be more likely at least Rumreicher or something
like Rumstammer?
Peter, still unswayed
>
>Paul JK.
Peter J. Vanatko
>
>jav...@ix.netcom.com(Peter J. Vanatko) wrote:
>
>>Because it obviously originated among Czechs and not Germans.
>
>>(Amazing, isn't it? 8-)#). Among Germans, Rhumreich or even Ruhmreich
>>would be pretty unusual names. We can assume that the meaning of
>>"rumreich" is meant to be "ruhmreich", because it looks so much like
>>it. And would you expect someone who does not know how to spell
>>"ruhmreich" as an adjective to use "Rhumreich" as a name?
>
>Lighten up Peter, I was just making a joke, for pete's sakes .. sheesh
>
>Karl Pollak
>Richmond, British Columbia
That was my first impression because of the one-liner. But your
objection is valid and I am sure you could have built on it. I was
inspired by another theory and in arguing it, in the end I left room
for others as well.
It's also true that given the time, as my previous post proves, I will
cackle and tattle, prattle and chatter, 8-)#,
Peter
>
Paul J Z Kriha
In article <504u6s$1...@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>, jav...@ix.netcom.com(Peter J. Vanatko)
wrote:
>In <4vuhth$1g0...@actrix.gen.nz> kri...@actrix.gen.nz (Paul J Z
>Kriha) writes:
>>
>>In article <4vrlab$q...@thoth.portal.ca>, kpo...@portal.ca (Karl
>Pollak) wrote:
>>>
>>>>Because it obviously originated among Czechs and not Germans.
>>>
>>>>(Amazing, isn't it? 8-)#). Among Germans, Rhumreich or even
>Ruhmreich
>>>>would be pretty unusual names. We can assume that the meaning of
>>>>"rumreich" is meant to be "ruhmreich", because it looks so much like
>>>>it. And would you expect someone who does not know how to spell
>>>>"ruhmreich" as an adjective to use "Rhumreich" as a name?
>>>
>>>Lighten up Peter, I was just making a joke, for pete's sakes ..
>sheesh
>>>
>>>Karl Pollak
>>>Richmond, British Columbia
>>>
>>
>>the correct original spelling. 'Rum' used to mean Rome.
>>'Rumreich' would not be an unexpected name given to
>>somebody who immigrated from the 'South', would it.
>
>Certainly, but instead of abbreviating, Germans like to consolidate. In
>your case wouldn't it be more likely at least Rumreicher or something
>like Rumstammer?
> Peter, still unswayed
>>
>>Paul JK.
Of course assuming that anything was abbreviated and
that any Germans were involved at all.
Since without more leads from the proud owners of the
name we don't really know much about the origins of the
name it is better not to assume anything. All we can
do is to list all possibilities.
Paul JK.
Anyway what are the roots of the Czech meaning of the
word rumrajch then?
rumrajch = disorderly uproar, noise
Paul J Kriha
In article <5051a6$4...@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>, jav...@ix.netcom.com(Peter J. Vanatko)
wrote:
>In <500n8p$1mg...@actrix.gen.nz> kri...@actrix.gen.nz (Paul J Z
>Kriha) writes:
>>
>>
>>You don't think that we all are like the children in the Ozie joke
>>about the people without pedigrees? You know the ones who did
>>not know who their fathers were. :-)
>
>Ha,ha,ha. Well put, but you are just a lucky cat, like me. Nobody calls
>Vaclav a Vanatko any more, yet the name stubbornly persists. But how do
>I know, after a thousand years, that this was indeed the exact
>original? Or better yet, how do you know about your name? How far back
>does it go? Don't hold back, it is interesting and it does belong here.
>It would be logical to assume that as the language changes, so do the
>names. Especially in the mostly spoken language of the past.
>
> Peter, scribbling, and 8-)))#
Ah, OK, diminutive Vana. So that's the etymology of your name.
When did the link get broken then? After Old Slavic? Was it still
there in Old Czech?
Well, what do I know about my name. It seems that all
Kr^i'has are related. The name is a cognate of names like
Kristian, Christian, Christianson etc. etc. meaning Christened.
I can trace my own family reliably in detail to late 1600's
and in less detail and by implication to early 1400's.
The name has been recorded around Southern Bohemia since
about early 1300's. But not before, which is somewhat
strange, because 1200 is by far too late for anybody being
freshly given such name. Everybody was already Christian
for centuries by then. The name probably came from abroad
about that time and indeed there are a few Kriha, Kryha and
von Kryha in Bavaria and OberOstereich.
Cheers,
Paul JK.