GL: I love Reva/Past life story!
Kim Thomas
Yes, perhaps I'm in the minority, but I still like it. ;0)
Jude
"Kim Thomas" <kim.s....@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:O6sy7.65914$WW.31...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
> Flame me I don't care!! Iike this storyline. I actually rush home to see
it.
> Yes, perhaps I'm in the minority, but I still like it. ;0)
>
I just got the chance to see Friday's show....Its a heck of lot better than
seeing Mob Story or Surviving Cassie's Island.
Kim Thomas
post included it.
Cory wrote in message ...
>In article <AXsy7.66023$WW.31...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
>jhc86SP...@att.net says...
Donna L. Bridges
<ZQCy7.125254$W8.31...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> "Kim
Thomas" <kim.s....@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>Thanks for adding the header Cory. I don't know what happened; the original
>post included it.
When Jude replied, since he is using MS Outlook Express, and since the
header acronym being used is a colon with a space or spaces after it,
the Microsoft header stripping bug hit. Change to using a slash
followed by a space & your posts won't be vulnerable to the stripping
bug. <G>
--
DonnaB <*> shallotpeel on Yahoo 8^>
"I know what I believe. I will continue to articulate what I believe
and what I believe - I believe what I believe is right." - George W.
Bush, Rome, July 22, 2001
Donna L. Bridges
<AXsy7.66023$WW.31...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> "Jude"
<jhc86SP...@att.net> wrote:
Hmm, well, I don't know that I think better than each of them is
saying much. <G> So far I'm still more or less appalled. The only
thing good about GL to me right now is that Harley's back with some
real comedy & real story! Ack. And, I can't believe they haven't sent
the Reva character to be bled yet, she's acting so weird! She surely
should be able to cover better.
--
DonnaB <*> shallotpeel on Yahoo 8^>
"We must always have old memories and young hopes." - Arsene Houssaye
Marlene Blanshay
"Jude" <jhc86SP...@att.net> wrote:
LOL!
Ann Keitz
<shall...@rcn.com> wrote:
>On Mon, 15 Oct 2001 03:43:28 GMT, in rec.arts.tv.soaps.cbs
><AXsy7.66023$WW.31...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> "Jude"
><jhc86SP...@att.net> wrote:
>
>>"Kim Thomas" <kim.s....@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
>>news:O6sy7.65914$WW.31...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
>>> Flame me I don't care!! Iike this storyline. I actually rush home to see
>>it.
>>> Yes, perhaps I'm in the minority, but I still like it. ;0)
>>
>>I just got the chance to see Friday's show....Its a heck of lot better than
>>seeing Mob Story or Surviving Cassie's Island.
>
>Hmm, well, I don't know that I think better than each of them is
>saying much. <G> So far I'm still more or less appalled. The only
>thing good about GL to me right now is that Harley's back with some
>real comedy & real story! Ack. And, I can't believe they haven't sent
>the Reva character to be bled yet, she's acting so weird! She surely
>should be able to cover better.
I find Civil War Reva to be insultingly offensively bad. They act
like the Confederates are the heros and the mean old Union General is
the villian, with nary a mention of the cruel evil institution the
Confederates were fighting for.
Guilding Light gets a F for revisionist History!
Annie Keitz
ke...@his.com
Donna L. Bridges
<MPG.16353b02...@news.mindspring.com> Cory
<ony...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>In article <1sulst8ochhmj574i...@4ax.com>,
>shall...@rcn.com says...
>> When Jude replied, since he is using MS Outlook Express, and since the
>> header acronym being used is a colon with a space or spaces after it,
>> the Microsoft header stripping bug hit. Change to using a slash
>
>Or any other symbol. Not that I'm picking on Donna or anyone else who
>uses it (and, really, I'm not... I can't stop anyone from using anything
>they damn well wanna and are gonna use, and I know that... I'm just
>venting I guess), but I personally prefer the dash < - > as an
>alternative symbol. It just looks more natural to me somehow.
Yes, well, use of the dash as most people use it doesn't satisfy one
of the desirables that using a slash followed by a space does. Some
people need a character besides a space immediately at the end of the
header acronym to make their filters work well & many different
characters will fulfill that but a space won't & most people who use a
dash use space, dash, space which is seriously deficient as the
choices go. And, this has nothing to do with opinion, just facts.
>> followed by a space & your posts won't be vulnerable to the stripping
>> bug. <G>
>
>'Tis true... anything, I think, besides the colon, works.
Some things work, some things work well, some things don't work. The
colon even works if no space follows it. I've studied this blasted bug
6 ways past Christmas now for over 5 years & the slash is IMO the best
of all alteratives & I continue to invite anyone in joining me in
using it. And, if you want to know what's good or bad about other
alternatives, I can post about that, too.
>Any suggestions would be appreciated. Thanks.
Check your settings in Gravity, I'd suggest. I, too, keep Agent set to
show quoted text in one color & new text in another.
--
DonnaB <*> shallotpeel on Yahoo 8^>
"Logic, like whiskey, loses its beneficial effect when taken in too
large quantities." - Lord Dunsany
Donna L. Bridges
<om4nst0oh2fupogam...@4ax.com> Ann Keitz <ke...@his.com>
wrote:
>I find Civil War Reva to be insultingly offensively bad. They act
>like the Confederates are the heros and the mean old Union General is
>the villian, with nary a mention of the cruel evil institution the
>Confederates were fighting for.
>
>Guilding Light gets a F for revisionist History!
The Confederate states were fighting for states rights, among a
handful of other reasons, not the least of which was that the Union
states' radical element were trying to force their will on the
Southerners. And, there were, of course, Confederate heros as well as
Union heros.
--
DonnaB <*> shallotpeel on Yahoo 8^>
"Don't be afraid to ask dumb questions. They're more easily handled
than dumb mistakes." - William Wister Hanes, in "High Tension"
(Little, Brown)
Jude
"Cory" <ony...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.16342c678...@news.mindspring.com...
> In article <AXsy7.66023$WW.31...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
> jhc86SP...@att.net says...
> >
Mala
this time travel story turns into a stinker, I'm done with this show for
good. It's just become way too boring. And I'm tired of all the stupid
things the characters do. Latest example: Rick not calling an ambulance
while Harley was in labor. Hello? What doctor in his right mind wouldn't
take two seconds to call 911 and get medical help on the way, even if it
would arrive too late for the actual birth? Rick acted like it would get in
the way of Harley delivering her baby, and Harley said she didn't want the
child to be born in an ambulance. Oh, OK. What if Gus hadn't been able to
fix the breech position - they would have just let the baby die because they
didn't have two seconds to dial three numbers?? Arrrgh!
Kim Thomas wrote in message ...
Dana Carpender
"Donna L. Bridges" wrote:
>
> On Mon, 15 Oct 2001 21:54:58 -0400, in rec.arts.tv.soaps.cbs
> <om4nst0oh2fupogam...@4ax.com> Ann Keitz <ke...@his.com>
> wrote:
>
> >I find Civil War Reva to be insultingly offensively bad. They act
> >like the Confederates are the heros and the mean old Union General is
> >the villian, with nary a mention of the cruel evil institution the
> >Confederates were fighting for.
> >
> >Guilding Light gets a F for revisionist History!
>
> The Confederate states were fighting for states rights, among a
> handful of other reasons
Yes, but largely the state's rights to continue to allow slavery.
--
Dana W. Carpender
Author, How I Gave Up My Low Fat Diet -- And Lost Forty Pounds!
http://www.holdthetoast.com
Check out our FREE Low Carb Ezine!
Donna L. Bridges
<3BCC4836...@holdthetoast.com> Dana Carpender
<da...@holdthetoast.com> wrote:
>"Donna L. Bridges" wrote:
>>
>> On Mon, 15 Oct 2001 21:54:58 -0400, in rec.arts.tv.soaps.cbs
>> <om4nst0oh2fupogam...@4ax.com> Ann Keitz <ke...@his.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >I find Civil War Reva to be insultingly offensively bad. They act
>> >like the Confederates are the heros and the mean old Union General is
>> >the villian, with nary a mention of the cruel evil institution the
>> >Confederates were fighting for.
>> >
>> >Guilding Light gets a F for revisionist History!
>>
>> The Confederate states were fighting for states rights, among a
>> handful of other reasons
>
>Yes, but largely the state's rights to continue to allow slavery.
Well, specifically, one of the minor reasons the South fought had to
do with states' rights to decide individually about slavery, not to
have a decision about it forced on them, but, no, not *largely* the
state's rights to *continue* to allow slavery. Huge portions of the
Southern fighers would not have been fighting had that been any of the
handful of central issues to them. And, oops, we've just stumbled on
the huge remaining POV issues about the Civil War. I suspect quickly
agreeing to disagree may be necessary, unless of course, people want
to learn or understand a broader view of that war.
--
DonnaB <*> shallotpeel on Yahoo 8^>
"It will never be over..." - Caleb, PC, 8/31/01
Perisha
> "Kim Thomas" <kim.s....@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
> news:O6sy7.65914$WW.31...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
> > Flame me I don't care!! Iike this storyline.
YOU'RE the one!
Jude
"Perisha" <perish...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:329ce59b.0110...@posting.google.com...
one what?
Donna L. Bridges
<Sr1z7.115215$3d2.3...@bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> "Jude"
<jhc86SP...@att.net> wrote:
I think it was meant as the humorous, you, the one person in the world
who likes this!!! <G> Get it. And, yes, literally I know that at least
4 people have posted some level of liking it. So far I still find it
abysmal & found the humor line moderately giggly. YMMV
--
DonnaB <*> shallotpeel on Yahoo 8^>
"A musician must make music, an artist must paint, a poet must write,
if he is to be ultimately at peace with himself. What one can be, one
must be." - Abraham H. Maslow
Jude
"Donna L. Bridges" <shall...@rcn.com> wrote in message
news:c29pst4blljvle1og...@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 16 Oct 2001 21:15:30 GMT, in rec.arts.tv.soaps.cbs
> <Sr1z7.115215$3d2.3...@bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> "Jude"
> <jhc86SP...@att.net> wrote:
>
> >"Perisha" <perish...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> >news:329ce59b.0110...@posting.google.com...
> >> "Jude" <jhc86SP...@att.net> wrote in message
> >news:<AXsy7.66023$WW.31...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>...
> >> > "Kim Thomas" <kim.s....@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
> >> > news:O6sy7.65914$WW.31...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
> >> > > Flame me I don't care!! Iike this storyline.
> >>
> >> YOU'RE the one!
> >
> >one what?
>
> I think it was meant as the humorous, you, the one person in the world
> who likes this!!! <G> Get it. And, yes, literally I know that at least
> 4 people have posted some level of liking it. So far I still find it
> abysmal & found the humor line moderately giggly. YMMV
Actually that would be Kim Thomas, the originator of the thread, which
Perisha didn't bother to even check the heades she was quoting! LOL
And I'm watching this as camp.....I have even started putting "canned"
laughter in almost every segment .
Donna L. Bridges
<PO1z7.115239$3d2.3...@bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> "Jude"
<jhc86SP...@att.net> wrote:
Ah, thanks, we do seem to be awash in people not used to trimming out
the citations that no longer exist or not citing at all. I tend to
figure that newbies will work it out or will ask. I wasn't up to even
trying to do anything but just repeat that block of tribbies as was.
So, camp, huh?!! The thing about camp is when they're doing it
straight camp can work but when they're trying to be campy, it's
ruined, so, I say so far, JoshyJack is being as literal as an actor
can be but RevaWhiteServantGirl can't get a grip on how to play this
stuff. She's delivering her lines as if she were in elocution class or
something. <G> Maybe we can make a game of it, an eating game? I'm in
the mood for chocolate!
--
DonnaB <*> shallotpeel on Yahoo 8^>
"Never say there is nothing beautiful in the world any more. There is
always something to make you wonder, in the shape of a leaf, the
trembling of a tree." - Dr. Albert Schweitzer
Marlene Blanshay
<mgo...@maine.rr.com> wrote:
> Anything's better than Danny, Michelle and that damn Mob! What a snore! If
> this time travel story turns into a stinker, I'm done with this show for
> good. It's just become way too boring. And I'm tired of all the stupid
> things the characters do. Latest example: Rick not calling an ambulance
> while Harley was in labor. Hello? What doctor in his right mind wouldn't
> take two seconds to call 911 and get medical help on the way, even if it
> would arrive too late for the actual birth? Rick acted like it would get in
> the way of Harley delivering her baby, and Harley said she didn't want the
> child to be born in an ambulance. Oh, OK. What if Gus hadn't been able to
> fix the breech position - they would have just let the baby die because they
> didn't have two seconds to dial three numbers?? Arrrgh!
>
I know- so many incongruities. ANd why didn't they take harley to the
hospital right after? Maybe they did and I missed it, but I thought, yeah,
take her to the diner- that's where I'd want to be 10 minutes after
childbirth.
And the richard/cassie stuff is the BIGGEST snore. It's like the writers
are trying to figure out how to make this stupefying story interesting.
The dialogue put me to sleep last night when I watched it!
Ann Keitz
The South was fighting to defend the slave economy of the South.
Period. My educational background is in history, specifically I went
to school in the South and listened to all the states rights
apologists. Nope states rights is a smokescreen to hide the central
issue of slavery which was the bedrock of the southern economy at the
time of the Civil War. The South isn't ready yet to honestly deal
with the issue and until such time racial issues in the U.S. will
continue to fester.
Annie Keitz
ke...@his.com
Donna L. Bridges
<5snpstkpjk3otvmng...@4ax.com> Ann Keitz <ke...@his.com>
wrote:
>The South was fighting to defend the slave economy of the South.
>Period. My educational background is in history, specifically I went
>to school in the South and listened to all the states rights
>apologists. Nope states rights is a smokescreen to hide the central
>issue of slavery which was the bedrock of the southern economy at the
>time of the Civil War. The South isn't ready yet to honestly deal
>with the issue and until such time racial issues in the U.S. will
>continue to fester.
I don't have any problem agreeing to disagree with you or in thinking
that we have more distance to cover in all manner of people issues,
not just race, but gender, & age & on & on. But, I do personally think
that of any region the South has made the most actual progress in
racial matters in particular.
--
DonnaB <*> shallotpeel on Yahoo 8^>
"While the word is yet unspoken, you are master of it; when once it is
spoken, it is master of you." - Arab proverb
Bigpole
Harley? and he didn't have a key?
Thanks,
J.
"Marlene Blanshay" <blan...@total.net> wrote in message
news:blanshay-161...@192.168.1.3...
MsLiz
On Tue, 16 Oct 2001 10:56:32 -0400, Donna L. Bridges
<shall...@rcn.com> was sworn in and testified:
>On Tue, 16 Oct 2001 09:46:14 -0500, in rec.arts.tv.soaps.cbs
><3BCC4836...@holdthetoast.com> Dana Carpender
><da...@holdthetoast.com> wrote:
>
>>"Donna L. Bridges" wrote:
>>>
>>> On Mon, 15 Oct 2001 21:54:58 -0400, in rec.arts.tv.soaps.cbs
><ke...@his.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> >I find Civil War Reva to be insultingly offensively bad. They act
>>> >like the Confederates are the heros and the mean old Union General is
>>> >the villian, with nary a mention of the cruel evil institution the
>>> >Confederates were fighting for.
>>> >
>>> >Guilding Light gets a F for revisionist History!
The new HW is a native of northeast Georgia, and what you see is a
common southern point of view. JohnnyD41 (I hope I remember that
right) is a proud descendant of a confederate soldier, and could
probably elaborate on this.
I am a descendant not only of slave owners, but of whale slaughterers,
so there. I take neither credit nor blame.
>>> The Confederate states were fighting for states rights, among a
>>> handful of other reasons
>>
>>Yes, but largely the state's rights to continue to allow slavery.
>
>Well, specifically, one of the minor reasons the South fought had to
>do with states' rights to decide individually about slavery, not to
>have a decision about it forced on them, but, no, not *largely* the
>state's rights to *continue* to allow slavery. Huge portions of the
>Southern fighers would not have been fighting had that been any of the
>handful of central issues to them.
Hogwash. IMHO.
The civil war was *all* about slavery and money. The poor whites who
fought and died in this war were suckers, IMHO, who believed the crap
the southern aristocrat power holders told them in order to get them
to fight.
I grew up hearing George Wallace's oratory, and saw how he inflamed
ignorant people. Confederates' descendants were still arguing states'
rights as a means to keep blacks out of decent public schools.
Another factor is genetics and heritage. This part of the country was
and is chock full of Scottish-Irish descendants The Wallaces of
Scotland (see Braveheart) were fierce fighters just like the Wallaces
of Alabama.
I think the Civil War was inevitable, because the founding fathers
could not get enough signatures on the Declaration of Independence
unless Thos. Jefferson took out the language rebuking King George III
for slavery. Too much wealth was invested in slavery for the south to
contemplate giving up slavery, plus the whites were scared to death
about how blacks would act if free. They thought the blacks would
kill them, and with some reason.
On the subject of reparations, I am frustrated that the proponents
don't acknowledge that the majority of white people of this country
fought hard - and successfully - to end slavery. There was a
tremendous loss of life in the war. This country was nearly torn in
half in order to end slavery, an institution which has existed world
wide throughout history, and exists in Africa today.
>And, oops, we've just stumbled on
>the huge remaining POV issues about the Civil War. I suspect quickly
>agreeing to disagree may be necessary,
Agreed!
> unless of course, people want
>to learn or understand a broader view of that war.
I think I have a pretty good idea what happened, I read Gone With the
Wind! LOL, Rhett Butler saw the truth and it made him rich!
MsLiz
Donna L. Bridges
<fO7z7.636$P1.4024@news> "Bigpole" <joy...@iron.net> wrote:
>Hi! Please help me! I missed something! How did Gus get into the cell with
>Harley? and he didn't have a key?
Well, one minute he was trying to pick the lock & the next minute I
noticed him in the cell, so I figured that his lock picking must have
been successful.
--
DonnaB <*> shallotpeel on Yahoo 8^>
"Remotely, almost unconnected with the reality of her situation, the
eternal footman of her consciousness made an ironic little snicker." -
Robert B. Parker, TROUBLE IN PARADISE
Donna L. Bridges
<3bcd0216....@news.mindspring.com>
lizg...@mindspring.commotion (MsLiz) wrote:
>The new HW is a native of northeast Georgia, and what you see is a
>common southern point of view. JohnnyD41 (I hope I remember that
>right) is a proud descendant of a confederate soldier, and could
>probably elaborate on this.
Many Americans know their ancestors who fought in US battles, among
them, for me, both the Revolutionary War & the Civil War. And, yes,
many of us manage to have pride in our heritage without being
advocates of slavery. Frankly, as an American I have a certain amount
of shame that as a country we ever trafficked in slaves, in humanity
as currency, that any of us ever believed we could morally own another
human being, but, as a Southerner, no, I have no more shame of it than
I do as an American. It was our country's shame to ever get into it &
we had a devil of a time getting out of it.
>I am a descendant not only of slave owners, but of whale slaughterers,
>so there. I take neither credit nor blame.
I admit to some relief on my part never to find any slaves owned in
any of my genealogical digging, or of anyone else's in my family.
>Hogwash. IMHO.
I'm not going to find any room for civil discussion if we're calling
each other's opinions hogwash, so, I won't call any names & will just
move on.
--
DonnaB <*> shallotpeel on Yahoo 8^>
"Every man is a divinity in disguise, a god playing the fool." - Ralph
Waldo Emerson (1803-1882)
Ann Keitz
<shall...@rcn.com> wrote:
>On Tue, 16 Oct 2001 21:39:24 -0400, in rec.arts.tv.soaps.cbs
><5snpstkpjk3otvmng...@4ax.com> Ann Keitz <ke...@his.com>
>wrote:
>
>>The South was fighting to defend the slave economy of the South.
>>Period. My educational background is in history, specifically I went
>>to school in the South and listened to all the states rights
>>apologists. Nope states rights is a smokescreen to hide the central
>>issue of slavery which was the bedrock of the southern economy at the
>>time of the Civil War. The South isn't ready yet to honestly deal
>>with the issue and until such time racial issues in the U.S. will
>>continue to fester.
>
>I don't have any problem agreeing to disagree with you or in thinking
>that we have more distance to cover in all manner of people issues,
>not just race, but gender, & age & on & on. But, I do personally think
>that of any region the South has made the most actual progress in
>racial matters in particular.
I'd say yes and no on the issue of racial progress in the south. Yes
there are some places where folks are healing. OTOH you have stuff
like the 2000 South Carolina primary where Bush's people there were
spreading e-mails reminding folks about John McCain's "darky"
daughter. And you got folks like the North Carolina legislator who
sent out an e-mail prasing the White Protestant man who "made this
country great". And finally you have the govenor of Virginia who is
too stupid not to realize that the moron sending him a request for a
day honoring "European Americans" is actualy a former KKK member who
started the National Association to Advance White People.
Annie Keitz
ke...@his.com
Ann Keitz
(MsLiz) wrote:
>I am a descendant not only of slave owners, but of whale slaughterers,
>so there. I take neither credit nor blame.
And I'm a descendant of Brooklynites who fought on the Union side. Not
abolitionists but likely poor slobs who were drafted....
Good post Ms Liz!
Annie Keitz
ke...@his.com
Donna L. Bridges
<lnesstob9rao29a25...@4ax.com> Ann Keitz <ke...@his.com>
wrote:
I think we will all be able to heave a huge sigh of relief when we
realize that the so-called race card can no longer be played because
it no longer works! But, it doesn't mean that most South Carolinians
much less most residents of Greenville & the surrounding area bought
into that. Everyone I know was appalled at it just as they've
regularly been appalled at other minority stunts out of BJU, etc. over
the last couple of years. As for the NC legislator, sorry, but, I
can't even tell what you mean, which means its probably something I
didn't hear about, but NC is such a fun state in illustrating
diversity, isn't it? From the most to the least in no drive time at
all, even.
--
DonnaB <*> shallotpeel on Yahoo 8^>
"The manner in which one single ray of light, one single precious
hint, will clarify and energize the whole mental life of him who
receives it, is among the most wonderful and heavenly of intellectual
phenomena." - Arnold Bennett
sol_girl
DAWN COMPTON
days show. I'm more interested in everyone else's life in Springfield.
This storyline would be easier to take in smaller doses. Just couldn't
the writers either make Josh or Reva disappear somehow as a result of
her visiting the past. I could enjoy Guiding Light more if I had to
only see one of them.
Mala
that dinner party than I've gotten out of any Guiding Light show in months.
Did they *really* think those curls looked attractive on her? She looked
like Civil War Barbi's aging mother-in-law! :-)
DAWN COMPTON wrote in message
<18800-3B...@storefull-614.iap.bryant.webtv.net>...
Jeri
loaned her the dress!!!! Guess Regina has been on a starvation diet
since last wearing that dress. I noted that the sides were black fabric
and shaped like an hour glass to give the illusion of a narrow waist.
After seeing Reva in the nurses outfit, looking like she was about the
bubble up and float away, one has to only speculate just how she got
into Reginas dress........=:-O
Jeri
--
Jeri ;-))
Okay, who stopped the payment on my reality check?
If We Quit Voting Will They All Go Away?
Love like you've never been hurt - Dance like nobody's watching
Women don't have hot flashes, they have power surges!!
Home is what catches you when you fall - and we all fall. ;-))
sol_girl
Movies and have all of those scenes
Linda
little to much.
Linda
JohnnyD41
> I find Civil War Reva to be insultingly offensively bad. They act
> like the Confederates are the heros and the mean old Union General is
> the villian, with nary a mention of the cruel evil institution the
> Confederates were fighting for.
>
> Guilding Light gets a F for revisionist History!
>
I'm not even going to comment on this ignorance. Oh, wait...I just did.
--
JohnnyD41
Polk County Confederates
www.angelfire.com/ga/firstgacav
Ink- n. A villainous compound of tanno-gallate of iron, gum-Arabic and
water, chiefly used to facilitate the infection of idiocy and promote
intellectual crime..."
--- Ambrose Bierce The Devil's Dictionary
JohnnyD41
news:KelH7.107093$WW.63...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
> >
> > I find Civil War Reva to be insultingly offensively bad. They act
> > like the Confederates are the heros and the mean old Union General is
> > the villian, with nary a mention of the cruel evil institution the
> > Confederates were fighting for.
> >
> > Guilding Light gets a F for revisionist History!
> >
> =====================================
>
> I'm not even going to comment on this ignorance. Oh, wait...I just did.
========================================
Sorry about responding to my own post, but I previously responded out of
anger and frustration and I apologize.
None of my ancestors owned slaves...they were poor dirt farmers. And they
cared nothing for risking their lives so that some rich folks could keep
their slaves. But they willingly joined the Confederate forces to defend
their homes and families.
And on another note....the land that I live on was part of the Battle
plantation before the war. Mr. Battle had over 1500 slaves at one time and
he, along with many other slave-owners, were supporters of the Union.
Donna L. Bridges
<YslH7.107111$WW.63...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>
"JohnnyD41" <John...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>None of my ancestors owned slaves...they were poor dirt farmers. And they
>cared nothing for risking their lives so that some rich folks could keep
>their slaves. But they willingly joined the Confederate forces to defend
>their homes and families.
>
>And on another note....the land that I live on was part of the Battle
>plantation before the war. Mr. Battle had over 1500 slaves at one time and
>he, along with many other slave-owners, were supporters of the Union.
I had wondered where you were earlier. You must be getting posts way
late. Or, I guess your life could have kept you away. Anyway, welcome
back. <G>
--
DonnaB-Back in Brooklyn <*> shallotpeel on Yahoo 8^>
"HTML belongs with HTTP. If it belonged with NNTP, it would be called
NNML. So there. :-p" - Bill H, in AltAgent, 8/01
Kim Thomas
JohnnyD41 wrote in message ...
>
>None of my ancestors owned slaves...they were poor dirt farmers. And they
>cared nothing for risking their lives so that some rich folks could keep
>their slaves. But they willingly joined the Confederate forces to defend
>their homes and families.
>
>And on another note....the land that I live on was part of the Battle
>plantation before the war. Mr. Battle had over 1500 slaves at one time and
>he, along with many other slave-owners, were supporters of the Union.
>
>--
>JohnnyD41
Well, isn't that special. Mr. Battle did his people proud and I'm sure his
slaves were grateful for his support of the Union. Ick
JohnnyD41
I think you missed my point...I was just saying that not all Southerners
fought the war to preserve slavery.
As for the Battle slaves....they were freed and many of them were given land
where their descendants still live today. Oh, and they took the Battle
name, too.
JohnnyD41
news:kjssutcd6qg1kto6j...@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 11 Nov 2001 02:34:32 GMT, in rec.arts.tv.soaps.cbs
> <YslH7.107111$WW.63...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>
> "JohnnyD41" <John...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>
> >None of my ancestors owned slaves...they were poor dirt farmers. And
they
> >cared nothing for risking their lives so that some rich folks could keep
> >their slaves. But they willingly joined the Confederate forces to defend
> >their homes and families.
> >
> >And on another note....the land that I live on was part of the Battle
> >plantation before the war. Mr. Battle had over 1500 slaves at one time
and
> >he, along with many other slave-owners, were supporters of the Union.
>
> I had wondered where you were earlier. You must be getting posts way
> late. Or, I guess your life could have kept you away. Anyway, welcome
> back. <G>
>
Thanks, Donna. We've been having trouble with our phone lines out here in
the boonies. Hopefully, it's been fixed (but I doubt it...LOL).
Kim Thomas
fought to preserve slavery, but many of them fought to preserve their way of
life , which included slavery. I'm sure your a nice guy, but I cannot agree
with the inference that not all slave owners were bad people. To own another
human being is wrong and nothing will ever justify that. As for the former
slaves being given land? Well your effin right they should received it and
the friggin "big house" too. Who do you think worked the land that enabled
these people to live the way they did? And yes, I am aware that not all
slave owners were wealthy, but they sure as hell would have been a lot
poorer if they didn't have people slaving for them.
As for the slaves taking their former master's name, many freedmen did that.
Many slaves also were grateful to their former masters for "taking care of
them for so many years" you know why? Because when you are brutalized
physically, emotionally,and mentally for years you internalize it, hell you
may even start to believe your own press. Well, Massa and everyone else in
the world says I have no soul or value, I'm an inferior being... After a few
generations of this you might start to believe it. So no, the point you were
trying to make isn't lost on me.
Donna L. Bridges
<ltPH7.167051$3d2.6...@bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> "Kim
Thomas" <kim.s....@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>No, actually I didn't miss your point at all. Of course not all Southerners
>fought to preserve slavery, but many of them fought to preserve their way of
>life , which included slavery. I'm sure your a nice guy, but I cannot agree
>with the inference that not all slave owners were bad people. To own another
>human being is wrong and nothing will ever justify that. ...
There's no question that owning another human being is wrong, was
wrong, in every instance when it has happened & still happens to this
day, worldwide, including people who did not themselves own slaves but
participate/d in slave trade or sell their own people into slavery or
take slaves as a part of war bounty. But, that doesn't mean that all
slave owners were bad people. It simply means that they were involved
in at least one wrong. If that's the criteria for being a bad person,
then, everyone is a bad person.
Donna L. Bridges
<SKDH7.108340$WW.64...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>
"JohnnyD41" <John...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>I think you missed my point...I was just saying that not all Southerners
>fought the war to preserve slavery.
Most didn't.
--
DonnaB <*> shallotpeel on Yahoo 8^>
"Every man is a divinity in disguise, a god playing the fool." - Ralph
Waldo Emerson (1803-1882)
Kim Thomas
Donna L. Bridges wrote in message ...
>On Mon, 12 Nov 2001 12:42:57 GMT, in rec.arts.tv.soaps.cbs
><ltPH7.167051$3d2.6...@bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> "Kim
>Thomas" <kim.s....@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>
>>No, actually I didn't miss your point at all. Of course not all
Southerners
>>fought to preserve slavery, but many of them fought to preserve their way
of
>>life , which included slavery. I'm sure your a nice guy, but I cannot
agree
>>with the inference that not all slave owners were bad people. To own
another
>>human being is wrong and nothing will ever justify that. ...
>
>There's no question that owning another human being is wrong, was
>wrong, in every instance when it has happened & still happens to this
>day, worldwide, including people who did not themselves own slaves but
>participate/d in slave trade or sell their own people into slavery or
>take slaves as a part of war bounty. But, that doesn't mean that all
>slave owners were bad people. It simply means that they were involved
>in at least one wrong. If that's the criteria for being a bad person,
>then, everyone is a bad person.
Good point. However, since we are dealing with U.S. southern slavery for
this thread... Slave owners were bad people. Sorry, Donna we'll always
disagree on this one. If someone can give me a logical explanation as to why
they weren't then maybe we'll talk...
Donna L. Bridges
<sSPH7.167060$3d2.6...@bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> "Kim
Thomas" <kim.s....@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>Donna L. Bridges wrote in message ...
>>On Mon, 12 Nov 2001 12:42:57 GMT, in rec.arts.tv.soaps.cbs
>>There's no question that owning another human being is wrong, was
>>wrong, in every instance when it has happened & still happens to this
>>day, worldwide, including people who did not themselves own slaves but
>>participate/d in slave trade or sell their own people into slavery or
>>take slaves as a part of war bounty. But, that doesn't mean that all
>>slave owners were bad people. It simply means that they were involved
>>in at least one wrong. If that's the criteria for being a bad person,
>>then, everyone is a bad person.
>
>Good point. However, since we are dealing with U.S. southern slavery for
>this thread... Slave owners were bad people. Sorry, Donna we'll always
>disagree on this one. If someone can give me a logical explanation as to why
>they weren't then maybe we'll talk...
I'm perfectly willing to agree to disagree. Some slave owners were bad
people; some weren't. One wrong action, looked at as if in a vacuum,
does not an accurate judgment make, about just about anything. Thomas
Jefferson was a slave owner who freed his slaves. Was he bad one day,
and voila, no longer bad the next? Life, and, judgment, don't work
that way; it's not that simplistic. And, remember when we deal with US
Southern slavery, that other areas of the country were the procurors &
the sellers, IOW, the South didn't start slavery; among other things,
they became enslaved to it & were too slow to free themselves from it.
I wish I had Apou's quotes from THE SIMPSONS at this moment. <G> And,
you're completely right that we may never agree.
--
DonnaB <*> shallotpeel on Yahoo 8^>
"We are not human beings on a spiritual journey. We are spiritual
beings on a human journey." - Stephen Covey
Sarah Estell
| On Mon, 12 Nov 2001 12:42:57 GMT, in rec.arts.tv.soaps.cbs
| <ltPH7.167051$3d2.6...@bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> "Kim
| Thomas" <kim.s....@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
|
| >No, actually I didn't miss your point at all. Of course not all
Southerners
| >fought to preserve slavery, but many of them fought to preserve their way
of
| >life , which included slavery. I'm sure your a nice guy, but I cannot
agree
| >with the inference that not all slave owners were bad people. To own
another
| >human being is wrong and nothing will ever justify that. ...
|
| There's no question that owning another human being is wrong, was
| wrong, in every instance when it has happened & still happens to this
| day, worldwide, including people who did not themselves own slaves but
| participate/d in slave trade or sell their own people into slavery or
| take slaves as a part of war bounty. But, that doesn't mean that all
| slave owners were bad people. It simply means that they were involved
| in at least one wrong. If that's the criteria for being a bad person,
| then, everyone is a bad person.
|
| --
| DonnaB
I agree, Donna. And I think that it is very easy to sit here in 2001 (almost
2002 - Yikes!) and using the morality of our day, judge others. Suddenly
there are those who think Thomas Jefferson wasn't a great President because
he was a slave owner.
In order to truly assess the character of a person, you have to assess the
morality and the ethics of the time. JohnnyD has in no way condoned
slavery, but rather pointed out that the war was fought for many reasons.
There were actually some southerners who fought not to preserve a way of
life or to keep slaves, but rather because they believed that states who
voluntarily joined a union, could also voluntarily leave a union. It's not
a far-fetched idea when you think of it that way.
However, the war was fought. The union preserved. And we're all better for
it today.
Sarah
Rthrquiet
who fought not to preserve a way of
>life or to keep slaves, but rather because they believed that states who
>voluntarily joined a union, could also voluntarily leave a union. It's not
>a far-fetched idea when you think of it that way.
>
And isn't that (pardon me, I'm about 15 years away from my last Am. Hist.
course) why the North (Union) decided to go to war in the first place: the
secession issue, rather than the slavery issue? As I recall, it wasn't as if
the war started because the North said to the South: "You have to give up your
slaves." People sometimes accuse southerners of a history rewrite when someone
wants to point out that it wasn't about slavery, at least not for all
southerners--but isn't it equally problematic to cast the war, from the
Northern perspective, as the North fighting to rid the country of slavery? In
other words, didn't the North (Union) decide to go to war to protect and
preserve the Union, rather than to force the South to abandon slavery? We all
(Northerners and Southerners) tend to remember slavery as the issue because
slavery was so ugly and unredeemably anti-American, but wouldn't people from
*both* sides, at the time, have said the war was about states' rights and
whether a state could or could not secede from the Union, the South's position
being yes, the Union's position being no? Wasn't the slavery issue more the
catalyst than the cause--from the perspective of both the North and the South?
I think I'll go find my Am. Hist. textbook and refresh my memory. Now, where is
it?
Michael (probably in the attic . . .)
Sarah Estell
"Rthrquiet" <rthr...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20011112201116...@mb-fn.aol.com...
| "Sarah Estell" <est...@gdinet.com> posted:>There were actually some
southerners
| who fought not to preserve a way of
| >life or to keep slaves, but rather because they believed that states who
| >voluntarily joined a union, could also voluntarily leave a union. It's
not
| >a far-fetched idea when you think of it that way.
| >
|
| And isn't that (pardon me, I'm about 15 years away from my last Am. Hist.
| course)
Well, you're better than me. My last Am History course was in high school
which was....ahem...20 years ago.
why the North (Union) decided to go to war in the first place: the
| secession issue, rather than the slavery issue? As I recall, it wasn't as
if
| the war started because the North said to the South: "You have to give up
your
| slaves."
As I remember it, the answer is yes and no. I think that the Congress (not
merely northern states) were getting closer and closer to taking up the
issue of slavery. Southern states were saying that northern states didn't
have any right to tell them what to do. They felt it was a "camel's nose
under the tent" situation and that if the north forced them to do one thing,
then the balance of power would shift away from that outlined in the
Constitution. The northern states treated freed slaves pretty miserably, so
to say that the "good" people of the north were fighting against the "bad"
people of the south is really a gross oversimplification. As with most
issues, there were good and bad on both sides.
People sometimes accuse southerners of a history rewrite when someone
| wants to point out that it wasn't about slavery, at least not for all
| southerners--but isn't it equally problematic to cast the war, from the
| Northern perspective, as the North fighting to rid the country of slavery?
Yes - it's easy to get cast as a racist if you say anything against the
Civil War being about slavery.
In
| other words, didn't the North (Union) decide to go to war to protect and
| preserve the Union, rather than to force the South to abandon slavery?
Lincoln was pretty clear about that in his speeches and writings. To him,
the war was for the Union.
We all
| (Northerners and Southerners) tend to remember slavery as the issue
because
| slavery was so ugly and unredeemably anti-American, but wouldn't people
from
| *both* sides, at the time, have said the war was about states' rights and
| whether a state could or could not secede from the Union, the South's
position
| being yes, the Union's position being no? Wasn't the slavery issue more
the
| catalyst than the cause--from the perspective of both the North and the
South?
Yes. Slavery is what drove both sides to the point of war. I doubt there
were many people on either side that would have fought and died to
preserve/abolish slavery. States rights versus the Union was the issue.
|
| I think I'll go find my Am. Hist. textbook and refresh my memory. Now,
where is
| it?
|
| Michael (probably in the attic . . .)
And when you find it, look all this up and see how good my memory is! I'll
admit to being raised in southern Indiana which even though it is
technically north of the Mason Dixon Line, trends much like the deep south
demographically. I remember being amazed in one of my marketing classes in
college to learn this. But it is absolutely true.
Sarah
JohnnyD41
time, rather than history books. As an amateur historian/genealogist, I've
read many things from my area.
Less than 1% of the population here were slaveowners, but the war came right
through here and much was lost. That's why my ancestors fought...they were
protecting their families and homes, just as anybody would do. And I'm
every bit as proud of them as I am of my grandfather, who served in WWII,
and my father, who served in Korea and Viet Nam.
4thSgt Eliab Frederick Davidson
Randolph Co Reserves, AL
Hardee's Cavalry Battalion, CSA
Pvt MvDonald Tanner
1st Georgia Volunteer Cavalry, CSA
They both lived to a ripe old age, loved by their family and neighbors, and
with a clear conscience.
--
JohnnyD41
Polk County Confederates
www.angelfire.com/ga/firstgacav
Ink- n. A villainous compound of tanno-gallate of iron, gum-Arabic and
water, chiefly used to facilitate the infection of idiocy and promote
intellectual crime..."
--- Ambrose Bierce The Devil's Dictionary
"Sarah Estell" <est...@gdinet.com> wrote in message
news:3bf09...@news.vic.com...
Kim Thomas
Sarah Estell wrote in message <3bf06...@news.vic.com>...
about Virginia then we can talk. Jefferson clearly felt and stated that
blacks were inferior to whites. Perhaps owning human chattel doesn't make
one a bad person...No one is disputing Jefferson's merits as a president,
but that wasn't point in the first place. I can sit in 2001 and judge
slavery in the America as wrong just as easily as I can judge slavery in the
Sudan (2001) as wrong. Have you read any slave journals? Or any historical
accounts of how the majority were treated? The devastation and destruction
to the lives, families, the very souls of a lot of men women and children?
Sarah Estell
| I prefer to do my research reading papers and books written by people of
the
| time, rather than history books.
True. History books tend to change over time, don't they?
As an amateur historian/genealogist, I've
| read many things from my area.
|
| Less than 1% of the population here were slaveowners, but the war came
right
| through here and much was lost.
That makes a lot of sense to me because I would assume that slave owners
were wealthy, right? In any given society, the wealthy are a much smaller
percentage of population. Also JohnnyD, were the sons of the wealthy less
likely to go off to war as they are today? If so, the percentage of slave
owners actually fighting would have been incredibly small, right?
That's why my ancestors fought...they were
| protecting their families and homes, just as anybody would do. And I'm
| every bit as proud of them as I am of my grandfather, who served in WWII,
| and my father, who served in Korea and Viet Nam.
And you should be. Men on both sides of the Civil War fought with honor
for what they believed in. Slavery has become the rallying point around the
Civil War, but as you reminded us, that's pretty simplistic view.
Thanks for sharing your family's history.
Sarah
Sarah Estell
| >
| >I agree, Donna. And I think that it is very easy to sit here in 2001
| (almost
| >2002 - Yikes!) and using the morality of our day, judge others. Suddenly
| >there are those who think Thomas Jefferson wasn't a great President
because
| >he was a slave owner.
| >
| >In order to truly assess the character of a person, you have to assess
the
| >morality and the ethics of the time. JohnnyD has in no way condoned
| >slavery, but rather pointed out that the war was fought for many
reasons.
| >
| >
| Sarah, read the David McCullough book, John Adams or Jefferson's writing's
| about Virginia then we can talk. Jefferson clearly felt and stated that
| blacks were inferior to whites.
I haven't read Jefferson's writings but I did just finish the bio of John
Adams. Fascinating stuff (and I really came away liking his wife!).
[snipped some]
I can sit in 2001 and judge
| slavery in the America as wrong just as easily as I can judge slavery in
the
| Sudan (2001) as wrong.
Of course we can, but you missed my point. If Jefferson thought blacks were
inherently inferior to whites, my point is that while that is obviously and
clearly wrong TODAY, it was common opinion THEN. As brilliant as Jefferson
was, I don't think he had the ability to see 150 years into the future and
determine that he had been wrong all along. One can argue that it doesn't
take a wise man to see that treating another human being that way is wrong,
but the simple fact is that slaves were not considered human beings. They
were considered at the same level as farm animals. That's horrible and
awful to think about, but it's what I mean about seeing things in the
context of the day.
As an example, FDR hid his disability from the American people because he
didn't believe that they would be able to accept a President in a
wheelchair. In the context of the day, he was probably right. That doesn't
mean that people of the 30s and 40s were bad people - just that they had not
progressed (or evolved) to the point where they could understand.
Have you read any slave journals? Or any historical
| accounts of how the majority were treated? The devastation and destruction
| to the lives, families, the very souls of a lot of men women and children?
|
No I haven't. But I'm a history buff and would be interested if you could
recommend any titles for me. It's getting to be winter in Wisconsin and
that's when I turn into an avid reader!
Sarah
Kim Thomas
Sarah Estell wrote in message <3bf11fda$1...@news.vic.com>...
always make me see red. Still don't a Jefferson fan. <g> I am however a fan
of Abigail's.
These are few of the books that I have found interesting over the years...
Andrews, L. William, and Henry Louis Gates Jr. The Civitas Anthology of
African American Slave Narratives
This book includes narratives by Frederick Douglass, Nat turner, Mary
Prince, William Wells Broen, Harriet Jacobs and more...
If you can get this book it probably the best, most complete and includes
books in their entirety.
Bennet, Lerone. Before the Mayflower
Du Bois, W.E.B. The Souls of Black Folk
I hope this is helpful.
Dana Carpender
Sarah Estell wrote:
>
>
> And when you find it, look all this up and see how good my memory is! I'll
> admit to being raised in southern Indiana which even though it is
> technically north of the Mason Dixon Line, trends much like the deep south
> demographically. I remember being amazed in one of my marketing classes in
> college to learn this. But it is absolutely true.
>
You found this surprising? I moved here -- Bloomington, IN -- 9 years
ago, but I grew up back east -- NJ suburbs of NYC, and later spent 17
years in Chicago -- and the Dixie alliance of S. IN. was clear to me
right away. We're mighty close to Kentucky, and a whole lot of families
spill across the line. Yep, 150 years ago it would have been very
divided around here. I'm thinking you just didn't notice for the same
reason that fish don't notice water -- just too used to it.
BTW, I love Bloomington. Very happy here. And the region is very, very
beautiful.
--
Dana W. Carpender
Author, How I Gave Up My Low Fat Diet -- And Lost Forty Pounds!
http://www.holdthetoast.com
Check out our FREE Low Carb Ezine!
Dana Carpender
Kim Thomas wrote:
>
> O.K. I agree with most of what you wrote, but the issue of slavery will
> always make me see red. Still don't a Jefferson fan. <g> I am however a fan
> of Abigail's.
Abigail? Jefferson's wife was Martha. Are you thinking of Abigail
Adams?
Donna L. Bridges
<3BF135DF...@kiva.net> Dana Carpender <dcar...@kiva.net> wrote:
>Kim Thomas wrote:
>>
>> O.K. I agree with most of what you wrote, but the issue of slavery will
>> always make me see red. Still don't a Jefferson fan. <g> I am however a fan
>> of Abigail's.
>
>Abigail? Jefferson's wife was Martha. Are you thinking of Abigail
>Adams?
She mentioned John Adams up above, didn't she?
--
DonnaB <*> shallotpeel on Yahoo 8^>
"I couldn't take you running to Shane ... & you knew that." - Jake
(So, she ran to Shane & lied to him.) AW, 3/23/98
Dana Carpender
"Donna L. Bridges" wrote:
>
> On Tue, 13 Nov 2001 10:01:51 -0500, in rec.arts.tv.soaps.cbs
> <3BF135DF...@kiva.net> Dana Carpender <dcar...@kiva.net> wrote:
>
> >Kim Thomas wrote:
> >>
> >> O.K. I agree with most of what you wrote, but the issue of slavery will
> >> always make me see red. Still don't a Jefferson fan. <g> I am however a fan
> >> of Abigail's.
> >
> >Abigail? Jefferson's wife was Martha. Are you thinking of Abigail
> >Adams?
>
> She mentioned John Adams up above, didn't she?
Are you suggesting I haven't had enough caffeine yet? Right. I'll go
put the kettle on again.
Donna L. Bridges
<3BF139D6...@kiva.net> Dana Carpender <dcar...@kiva.net> wrote:
>"Donna L. Bridges" wrote:
>> On Tue, 13 Nov 2001 10:01:51 -0500, in rec.arts.tv.soaps.cbs
>> <3BF135DF...@kiva.net> Dana Carpender <dcar...@kiva.net> wrote:
>>
>> >Kim Thomas wrote:
>> >>
>> >> O.K. I agree with most of what you wrote, but the issue of slavery will
>> >> always make me see red. Still don't a Jefferson fan. <g> I am however a fan
>> >> of Abigail's.
>> >
>> >Abigail? Jefferson's wife was Martha. Are you thinking of Abigail
>> >Adams?
>>
>> She mentioned John Adams up above, didn't she?
>
>Are you suggesting I haven't had enough caffeine yet? Right. I'll go
>put the kettle on again.
Bwa Ha Ha, thanks, I need that laugh! And, it was such a nice
surprise, too. lol. The funnier thing may be that when I first read it
I couldn't figure out what Abigail [Williams] on ATWT had to do with
this. Guffaw.
--
DonnaB <*> shallotpeel on Yahoo 8^>
"I love local color." - Cecile, AW, 11-95
Kim Thomas
Donna L. Bridges wrote in message
yes I was referring to Abigail Adams. It is a really good book (John Adams)
if you get a chance to read it.
MsLiz
was sworn in and testified:
I tried to get the attributions right, but it is confusing.
>"Kim Thomas" <kim.s....@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
>news:xN2I7.184349$W8.65...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
>| >
>| >I agree, Donna. And I think that it is very easy to sit here in 2001
>| (almost
>| >2002 - Yikes!) and using the morality of our day, judge others. Suddenly
>| >there are those who think Thomas Jefferson wasn't a great President
>because
>| >he was a slave owner.
>| >
>| >In order to truly assess the character of a person, you have to assess
>the
>| >morality and the ethics of the time. JohnnyD has in no way condoned
>| >slavery, but rather pointed out that the war was fought for many
>reasons.
>| >
>| >
>| >Sarah
>
>| Sarah, read the David McCullough book, John Adams or Jefferson's writing's
>| about Virginia then we can talk. Jefferson clearly felt and stated that
>| blacks were inferior to whites.
>
>I haven't read Jefferson's writings but I did just finish the bio of John
>Adams. Fascinating stuff (and I really came away liking his wife!).
>> Have you read any slave journals? Or any historical
>| accounts of how the majority were treated? The devastation and destruction
>| to the lives, families, the very souls of a lot of men women and children?
>|
>No I haven't. But I'm a history buff and would be interested if you could
>recommend any titles for me. It's getting to be winter in Wisconsin and
>that's when I turn into an avid reader!
>Sarah
I recommend a biography of Thomas Jefferson by Brodie, a female but I
can't remember her first name. It is probably 20 years old. The book
does a great job of explaining how and why Jefferson might have mated
with Sally Hemmings, and why he did not free his slaves. Jefferson's
wife died young, and she was heiress to land and slaves. This is how
Jefferson came to own Sally, who has his late wife's half-sister.
Sally's mother was the product of a master/slave liason with
Jefferson's father-in-law. Under Virginia law, a freed slave was
required to move out of state within a year. That explains to me that
a slaveowner with a sense of moral responsibility for his slaves would
be reluctant to free them in a country where their appearance would
forever mark them, and their safety depended upon being protected from
evil whites.
Jefferson's children by Sally were freed; each one who could pass for
white was sent off as soon as they came of age, and was placed in
white society. Darker Hemmingses kept the name, moved to Ohio, and
knew the family history.
This was hard to accept in a personal hero, but when I consider how
complex humans and life are, I can accept inconsistencies. We all
benefit from Jefferson's wisdom, and his inconsistencies have more to
do with the times than with hypocracy.
MsLiz
Donna L. Bridges
<xN2I7.184349$W8.65...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> "Kim
Thomas" <kim.s....@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>... Jefferson clearly felt and stated that blacks were inferior to whites.
Prevailing thought at the time. As a matter of fact, whether one owned
slaves or not wouldn't be a determiner of that attitude. Probably most
of the people who were then & even later against slavery felt that
blacks were inferior to whites. They were just at a different place,
already or soon to be, on the issue of whether it was alright for any
human being to OWN another, regardless of any equality in any other
light beyond having a soul, being one of God's creatures, etc.
Even now one could find good people who on some level believe that
some people are better than others & while it is ignorant & bigoted &
wrong having that belief does not make them bad people necessarily. It
may very well drive their children & grandchildren nuts that they have
these attitudes & that they show up every once in awhile, but, at the
same time these are people who were born during WW1 or between WW1 and
WW2 at the latest & the world has changed drastically in their
lifetimes.
--
DonnaB <*> shallotpeel on Yahoo 8^>
"This was something more powerful than I could control." - ex-AW
actress Anne Heche, saying she was straight before meeting her
girlfriend, Ellen Degeneres
Sarah Estell
| These are few of the books that I have found interesting over the years...
|
| Andrews, L. William, and Henry Louis Gates Jr. The Civitas Anthology of
| African American Slave Narratives
| This book includes narratives by Frederick Douglass, Nat turner, Mary
| Prince, William Wells Broen, Harriet Jacobs and more...
| If you can get this book it probably the best, most complete and includes
| books in their entirety.
| Bennet, Lerone. Before the Mayflower
| Du Bois, W.E.B. The Souls of Black Folk
| I hope this is helpful.
|
Thanks, Kim! I'm off to Amazon to see what I can find.
Sarah
Sarah Estell
"Dana Carpender" <dcar...@kiva.net> wrote in message
news:3BF135DF...@kiva.net...
|
|
| Kim Thomas wrote:
| >
| > O.K. I agree with most of what you wrote, but the issue of slavery will
| > always make me see red. Still don't a Jefferson fan. <g> I am however a
fan
| > of Abigail's.
|
| Abigail? Jefferson's wife was Martha. Are you thinking of Abigail
| Adams?
|
Actually, Jefferson wasn't married was he? Kim was referring to my comment
about having recently finished the John Adams biography. I said that I came
away loving his wife (Abigail). As for Martha, she was married to
Washington.
Gee - to hear us talk about it, the Founding Fathers sound like they came
from Oakdale!
Sarah
Sarah Estell
|
|
| Sarah Estell wrote:
| >
| >
| > And when you find it, look all this up and see how good my memory is!
I'll
| > admit to being raised in southern Indiana which even though it is
| > technically north of the Mason Dixon Line, trends much like the deep
south
| > demographically. I remember being amazed in one of my marketing classes
in
| > college to learn this. But it is absolutely true.
| >
|
|
| You found this surprising? I moved here -- Bloomington, IN -- 9 years
| ago, but I grew up back east -- NJ suburbs of NYC, and later spent 17
| years in Chicago -- and the Dixie alliance of S. IN. was clear to me
| right away. We're mighty close to Kentucky, and a whole lot of families
| spill across the line. Yep, 150 years ago it would have been very
| divided around here. I'm thinking you just didn't notice for the same
| reason that fish don't notice water -- just too used to it.
That's exactly right. Outside of the accent (the Hoosier Twang) I didn't
really notice that much of a "southern" trend. But when I got into my
marketing classes in college and we started to dissect demographics, buying
patterns, brand preferences, beliefs, etc., that's when I was amazed to see
how "southern" I really was. And of course you know that no self-respecting
southern Indiana Hoosier would admit to sharing any characteristics with a
Kentuckian, right?
|
| BTW, I love Bloomington. Very happy here. And the region is very, very
| beautiful.
|
| --
| Dana W. Carpender
Yes it is and I miss it. I was home about a month ago and went to
Bloomington and was just amazed at the growth there. And soon - it will be
basketball season!
Sarah
Dana Carpender
Sarah Estell wrote:
>
> "Dana Carpender" <dcar...@kiva.net> wrote in message
> news:3BF135DF...@kiva.net...
> |
> |
> | Kim Thomas wrote:
> | >
> | > O.K. I agree with most of what you wrote, but the issue of slavery will
> | > always make me see red. Still don't a Jefferson fan. <g> I am however a
> fan
> | > of Abigail's.
> |
> | Abigail? Jefferson's wife was Martha. Are you thinking of Abigail
> | Adams?
> |
> | Dana W. Carpender
>
> Actually, Jefferson wasn't married was he? Kim was referring to my comment
> about having recently finished the John Adams biography. I said that I came
> away loving his wife (Abigail). As for Martha, she was married to
> Washington.
No, there was a Mrs. Jefferson, but she died young. Dammit, now I have
to haul out the J volume of the World Book... Yep, her name was Martha
(must have been a fashionable name back then), and she died 18 1/2 years
before he became President.
Sarah Estell
|
| >
| > Actually, Jefferson wasn't married was he? Kim was referring to my
comment
| > about having recently finished the John Adams biography. I said that I
came
| > away loving his wife (Abigail). As for Martha, she was married to
| > Washington.
|
| No, there was a Mrs. Jefferson, but she died young. Dammit, now I have
| to haul out the J volume of the World Book... Yep, her name was Martha
| (must have been a fashionable name back then), and she died 18 1/2 years
| before he became President.
| --
| Dana W. Carpender
OK - I am most impressed! I would never in a million years have pulled the
name Martha out of the air as Jefferson's wife. I remembered he was a
bachelor President, but that's all that stayed in my mushy brain.
Sarah
Dana Carpender
I can tell you how I did it -- I saw the musical 1776 on Broadway, about
a million years ago, when I was a kid, and had the cast album. There's
a song sung by Martha Jefferson, about how Tom seduces her by playing
the violin. I remembered that she died young because there's a line in
there that says, "Say I died/Loving bride/Loving wife/Loving life."
Hard to forget what you learned set to music in your youth.
If you haven't seen 1776, BTW, there's a video of it, and it's worth
seeing. A good show for, say, 4th of July weekend -- indeed, some TV
stations run it then.
Ann Keitz
<shall...@rcn.com> wrote:
>On Sun, 11 Nov 2001 23:22:26 GMT, in rec.arts.tv.soaps.cbs
><SKDH7.108340$WW.64...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>
>"JohnnyD41" <John...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>
>>I think you missed my point...I was just saying that not all Southerners
>>fought the war to preserve slavery.
>
>Most didn't.
Back from a long weekend. Those that fought for the Confederacy gave
aid and comfort to the institution of slavery. Thus whether or not
they consciously admitted it, they did in fact fight in a war to
preserve that cruel institution. And I might add it wasn't that these
men were a product of their times, Europe had abolished the practice
years before and many in the U.S. -- Harriet Beecher Stowe for example
laid out excellent arguments as to why the cruel institution should
have been outlawed.
Annie Keitz
ke...@his.com
Ann Keitz
<John...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>I prefer to do my research reading papers and books written by people of the
>time, rather than history books. As an amateur historian/genealogist, I've
>read many things from my area.
>
>Less than 1% of the population here were slaveowners, but the war came right
>through here and much was lost. That's why my ancestors fought...they were
>protecting their families and homes, just as anybody would do. And I'm
>every bit as proud of them as I am of my grandfather, who served in WWII,
>and my father, who served in Korea and Viet Nam.
While use of primary sources can be useful in historical study,
remember that they too are colored by the times -- would you get an
accurate picture of the British by reading the diary of an IRA member?
Would that diary admit that participating in an organization that
bombs innocents is wrong?
Annie Keitz
ke...@his.com
Donna L. Bridges
<sfbI7.110549$WW.66...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> "Kim
Thomas" <kim.s....@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>Donna L. Bridges wrote in message
>>Bwa Ha Ha, thanks, I need that laugh! And, it was such a nice
>>surprise, too. lol. The funnier thing may be that when I first read it
>>I couldn't figure out what Abigail [Williams] on ATWT had to do with
>>this. Guffaw.
>
>Sorry guys, maybe I should have snipped and posted in the right order, but
>yes I was referring to Abigail Adams. It is a really good book (John Adams)
>if you get a chance to read it.
Well, since that Abigail's birthday is just past, we can take a minute
... Happy Birthday Abigail Adams 11 Nov 1744
Newsgroups: alt.quotations
Message-ID: <weeks-g-1111...@bh-cw31-038.pool.dircon.co.uk>
"If particular care and attention is not paid to the ladies, we are
determined to foment a rebellion, and will not hold ourselves bound by
any laws in which we have no voice or representation." - Abigail
(Smith) Adams (1744-1818)_Letter to John Adams_ [March 31, 1776]
"I am more and more convinced that man is a dangerous creature; and
that power, whether vested in many or a few, is ever grasping, and
like the grave cries give, give, give. The great fish swallows up the
small, and he who is most strenuous for the Rights of the people, when
vested with power, is as eager after the prerogatives of Government."
- Abigail Adams, letter to John Adams, November 27, 1775
"Our little ones, whom you so often recommend to my care and
instruction, shall not be deficient in virtue or probity, if the
precepts of a mother have their desired effect; but they would be
doubly enforced, could they be indulged with the example of a father
alternately before them. I often point them to their sire, ...
'engaged in a corrupted state, Wrestling with vice and faction.'" -
Abigail Adams
--
DonnaB <*> shallotpeel on Yahoo 8^>
"What makes me so furious is that I'm innocent, for once." - Vivian,
DOOL, 9/10/96
Donna L. Bridges
<3bf1c...@news.vic.com> "Sarah Estell" <est...@gdinet.com> wrote:
>| No, there was a Mrs. Jefferson, but she died young. Dammit, now I have
>| to haul out the J volume of the World Book... Yep, her name was Martha
>| (must have been a fashionable name back then), and she died 18 1/2 years
>| before he became President. - Dana W. Carpender
>
>OK - I am most impressed! I would never in a million years have pulled the
>name Martha out of the air as Jefferson's wife. I remembered he was a
>bachelor President, but that's all that stayed in my mushy brain.
Never saw 1776? In that dramatization of the drafting of Founding docs
Jefferson has to get away from Philadelphia to get back home to see
his young wife & their love story is portrayed in at least one of the
songs.
--
DonnaB <*> shallotpeel on Yahoo 8^>
http://www.ezsat.net/911/ for WTC related humor
"In raising my children, I have lost my mind but found my soul." -
Lisa T. Shepherd
Donna L. Bridges
<3BF1CB30...@kiva.net> Dana Carpender <dcar...@kiva.net> wrote:
>I can tell you how I did it -- I saw the musical 1776 on Broadway, about
>a million years ago, when I was a kid, and had the cast album. There's
>a song sung by Martha Jefferson, about how Tom seduces her by playing
>the violin. I remembered that she died young because there's a line in
>there that says, "Say I died/Loving bride/Loving wife/Loving life."
>Hard to forget what you learned set to music in your youth.
>
>If you haven't seen 1776, BTW, there's a video of it, and it's worth
>seeing. A good show for, say, 4th of July weekend -- indeed, some TV
>stations run it then.
Oops, posted too soon. What is the name of that song? The refrain in
my head is her, the redhead, singing, he plays the violin, as an
answer to all of these questions ... maybe about how he shows, or how
she knows, he loves her, ... Excellent musical! Paul Michael Valley
[ex-Ryan Harrison on AW & upcoming Josef on OLTL] played the role of
Jefferson when it was brought back to Broaday in the 90s & I always
wished to have seen him in it.
--
DonnaB <*> shallotpeel on Yahoo 8^>
http://www.ezsat.net/911/ for WTC related humor
"The worst things: To be in bed and sleep not; To want for one who
comes not; To try to please and please not." - Egyptian Proverb
Dana Carpender
"Donna L. Bridges" wrote:
>
> On Tue, 13 Nov 2001 20:38:56 -0500, in rec.arts.tv.soaps.cbs
> <3BF1CB30...@kiva.net> Dana Carpender <dcar...@kiva.net> wrote:
>
> >I can tell you how I did it -- I saw the musical 1776 on Broadway, about
> >a million years ago, when I was a kid, and had the cast album. There's
> >a song sung by Martha Jefferson, about how Tom seduces her by playing
> >the violin. I remembered that she died young because there's a line in
> >there that says, "Say I died/Loving bride/Loving wife/Loving life."
> >Hard to forget what you learned set to music in your youth.
> >
> >If you haven't seen 1776, BTW, there's a video of it, and it's worth
> >seeing. A good show for, say, 4th of July weekend -- indeed, some TV
> >stations run it then.
>
> Oops, posted too soon. What is the name of that song? The refrain in
> my head is her, the redhead, singing, he plays the violin,
You've got the title right there -- "He Plays the Violin." I saw Betty
Buckley, one of the true Broadway Divas, play that role. Also saw
William Daniels, later of St. Elsewhere, as Adams, Howard DaSilva as
Franklin, and Ken Howard, best known for the show The White Shadow, as
Jefferson. Original Broadway cast. Growing up just outside NYC has its
benefits.
I know Daniels and DaSilva made the movie cast, I'm thinking Howard did
too.
Donna L. Bridges
<3BFA66A5...@kiva.net> Dana Carpender <dcar...@kiva.net> wrote:
>"Donna L. Bridges" wrote:
>> Oops, posted too soon. What is the name of that song? The refrain in
>> my head is her, the redhead, singing, he plays the violin,
>
>You've got the title right there -- "He Plays the Violin." I saw Betty
>Buckley, one of the true Broadway Divas, play that role.
Ahhh, gasp, swoon! I would have loved to have seen her in that, wow.
>Also saw
>William Daniels, later of St. Elsewhere, as Adams, Howard DaSilva as
>Franklin, and Ken Howard, best known for the show The White Shadow, as
>Jefferson. Original Broadway cast. Growing up just outside NYC has its
>benefits.
So, what else did you see back then? PIPPIN?
>I know Daniels and DaSilva made the movie cast, I'm thinking Howard did
>too.
Yes, yes, he did. And, I never would have imagined him as Jefferson,
but he was wonderful in the role. Frankly, I've liked him in many
things much more than THE WHITE SHADOW. He has become an outstanding
character actor, I think.
I'm going to have that in my head all day now, but, for once, that's
not a bad thing. <G> I wish they'd used Betty Buckley in the movie!
--
DonnaB <*> shallotpeel on Yahoo 8^>
http://www.ezsat.net/911/ for WTC related humor
"It is never too late to be who you might have been." - George Eliot
Dana Carpender
"Donna L. Bridges" wrote:
>
> On Tue, 20 Nov 2001 09:20:21 -0500, in rec.arts.tv.soaps.cbs
> <3BFA66A5...@kiva.net> Dana Carpender <dcar...@kiva.net> wrote:
>
> >"Donna L. Bridges" wrote:
> >> Oops, posted too soon. What is the name of that song? The refrain in
> >> my head is her, the redhead, singing, he plays the violin,
> >
> >You've got the title right there -- "He Plays the Violin." I saw Betty
> >Buckley, one of the true Broadway Divas, play that role.
>
> Ahhh, gasp, swoon! I would have loved to have seen her in that, wow.
>
> >Also saw
> >William Daniels, later of St. Elsewhere, as Adams, Howard DaSilva as
> >Franklin, and Ken Howard, best known for the show The White Shadow, as
> >Jefferson. Original Broadway cast. Growing up just outside NYC has its
> >benefits.
>
> So, what else did you see back then? PIPPIN?
>
Yes. With Ben Vereen and John Rubenstein. Zero Mostel in Fiddler,
although it was a revival. James Rado playing Claude in Hair (but not
Gerome Ragni as Berger.) Danny Kaye in Two by Two. Joel Gray in George
M (first Broadway show I saw.) Lots o' stuff.
> >I know Daniels and DaSilva made the movie cast, I'm thinking Howard did
> >too.
>
> Yes, yes, he did. And, I never would have imagined him as Jefferson,
> but he was wonderful in the role. Frankly, I've liked him in many
> things much more than THE WHITE SHADOW. He has become an outstanding
> character actor, I think.
Indeed. I saw him play Dysart in Equus, in Chicago, back in the late
'70s, and he was terrific.
Oh, and more theatre-going experience to envy: In Chicago I saw David
Bowie play The Elephant Man, Dustin Hoffman, John Malkovich, and
Wilford Brimley in Death of a Salesman, and John Malkovich, Gary Sinese,
and Lori Metcalf in Of Mice and Men -- this last at the Steppenwolf when
it was still about 50 seats.
> I'm going to have that in my head all day now, but, for once, that's
> not a bad thing. <G> I wish they'd used Betty Buckley in the movie!
I haven't heard much about her since she was in the original Broadway
cast of Cats, and she's way too good not to use!
Lancebowski
>There's no question that owning another human being is >wrong, was
wrong, in every instance when it has >happened & still happens to this
day, worldwide, >including people who did not themselves own slaves
but >participate/d in slave trade or sell their own people >into
slavery or take slaves as a part of war bounty. >But, that doesn't
mean that all slave owners were bad >people. It simply means that they
were involved in at >least one wrong. If that's the criteria for being
a >bad person, then, everyone is a bad person.
lizg...@mindspring.commotion (MsLiz) wrote in message news:<3bf182e3....@news.mindspring.com>...
>[...]
> This was hard to accept in a personal hero, but when I consider how
> complex humans and life are, I can accept inconsistencies. We all
> benefit from Jefferson's wisdom, and his inconsistencies have more to
> do with the times than with hypocracy.
>
> MsLiz
I use a link to respond due to relative quote volume and formatting
considerations:
http://lancebowski.tripod.com/glight/gl-jeff.html
Lancebowski
Kim Thomas
vindicated now... Ahhh....;0)
Lancebowski wrote in message